1 00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:06,359 Sean Aylmer : Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,059 Sean Aylmer : Aylmer. Interest rates might be tipped to come down later 3 00:00:09,059 --> 00:00:13,019 Sean Aylmer : this year, but the era of ultra- low rates is 4 00:00:13,020 --> 00:00:15,780 Sean Aylmer : over. And while that might not be welcome news for 5 00:00:15,780 --> 00:00:18,989 Sean Aylmer : mortgage holders, global investment giant, Vanguard, believes the shift to 6 00:00:18,989 --> 00:00:22,259 Sean Aylmer : higher interest rates, at least over the longer term, is 7 00:00:22,259 --> 00:00:25,560 Sean Aylmer : the single best economic financial development in 20 years with long- 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,729 Sean Aylmer : term benefits for markets and investors. Qian Wang is Vanguard's 9 00:00:29,730 --> 00:00:33,240 Sean Aylmer : chief economist for the Asia- Pacific region. Also, she heads 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,418 Sean Aylmer : up their global economics and Capital Markets Model research team. 11 00:00:36,659 --> 00:00:40,080 Sean Aylmer : She joins me today from the US. Qian, welcome to 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:40,800 Sean Aylmer : Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:41,130 --> 00:00:43,320 Qian Wang: Thank you for the invitation. Glad to join you today. 14 00:00:43,890 --> 00:00:46,799 Sean Aylmer : You recently released the Vanguard economic and market outlook, which 15 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,360 Sean Aylmer : is a major piece of work. It looks at the 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:53,279 Sean Aylmer : global economy. It talks about a return to sound money. 17 00:00:53,279 --> 00:00:56,280 Sean Aylmer : Now, in layman's terms, so I can understand it, so 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,910 Sean Aylmer : my mum can understand it, what does that mean and 19 00:00:59,910 --> 00:01:00,810 Sean Aylmer : why does it matter? 20 00:01:01,410 --> 00:01:04,919 Qian Wang: The return of sound money, we meant the interest rate 21 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,708 Qian Wang: will stay above the rate of inflation in the long term, 22 00:01:07,950 --> 00:01:12,389 Qian Wang: so persistent, positive real interest rate. Now in our real, 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,509 Qian Wang: that is actually a very critical difference between investment and 24 00:01:15,510 --> 00:01:21,209 Qian Wang: speculation because the former comes on enduring real return over 25 00:01:21,209 --> 00:01:24,690 Qian Wang: the long- term, and then the magic of compounding will 26 00:01:24,690 --> 00:01:27,719 Qian Wang: help you to achieve your long- term investment goal while 27 00:01:27,719 --> 00:01:30,899 Qian Wang: the latter actually stick to profit from the price volatility 28 00:01:30,930 --> 00:01:34,140 Qian Wang: in the short- term. So this kind of cash rate 29 00:01:34,140 --> 00:01:38,039 Qian Wang: is very important to investor, higher cash rate, because it set the 30 00:01:38,039 --> 00:01:41,279 Qian Wang: level of risk- free rate, that is the foundation of 31 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,280 Qian Wang: all asset returns, right? If we use a building block 32 00:01:44,370 --> 00:01:48,480 Qian Wang: approach, risk- free rate plus term premium give you the 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,630 Qian Wang: long duration bond yield, plus credit spread, give us the 34 00:01:51,630 --> 00:01:54,720 Qian Wang: yield from credit, plus equity risk premium, then we get 35 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,050 Qian Wang: the earnings yield for equity. So leaving any price change 36 00:01:58,050 --> 00:02:01,889 Qian Wang: aside, a higher risk- free rate should lift up expected 37 00:02:01,889 --> 00:02:04,140 Qian Wang: return for all asset classes in the long term. 38 00:02:04,650 --> 00:02:07,890 Sean Aylmer : Okay. So I feel like I'm back in a finance lecture here listening 39 00:02:07,890 --> 00:02:11,970 Sean Aylmer : to you here. But it's kind of, I mean, behind 40 00:02:11,970 --> 00:02:13,950 Sean Aylmer : all this is the fact that in recent years, and 41 00:02:13,950 --> 00:02:18,059 Sean Aylmer : probably since the GFC, times haven't been normal because we 42 00:02:18,059 --> 00:02:20,969 Sean Aylmer : have had, and particularly in recent times, such low interest 43 00:02:20,969 --> 00:02:24,780 Sean Aylmer : rates and you've had inflation above interest rates and that's 44 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:27,419 Sean Aylmer : not what should happen. Kind of what you're saying, I 45 00:02:27,419 --> 00:02:30,150 Sean Aylmer : think, correct me if I'm wrong, is that for the 46 00:02:30,150 --> 00:02:32,970 Sean Aylmer : long term you're supposed to actually have interest rates higher 47 00:02:32,970 --> 00:02:36,540 Sean Aylmer : than inflation because that allows you, when you're investing in 48 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:40,768 Sean Aylmer : things like bonds particularly, but along the credit spectrum, equities 49 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:43,830 Sean Aylmer : and that, it kind of sets the ground rules more 50 00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:45,090 Sean Aylmer : normally or something like that. 51 00:02:45,419 --> 00:02:49,950 Qian Wang: Yeah. I think over the past decade, especially after the 52 00:02:49,950 --> 00:02:53,309 Qian Wang: global financial crisis, we are used to a very low 53 00:02:53,309 --> 00:02:57,059 Qian Wang: interest rate environment. And in many places you get zero 54 00:02:57,059 --> 00:03:00,150 Qian Wang: interest rate or even negative interest rate. And at that 55 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,080 Qian Wang: point it's like, where is the confidence in those fiat 56 00:03:04,139 --> 00:03:07,950 Qian Wang: currency, why we hold casual, why we hold those bond 57 00:03:07,950 --> 00:03:12,540 Qian Wang: or fixed income investment securities? But now, I think, there 58 00:03:12,540 --> 00:03:15,630 Qian Wang: is a critical change. This is what our outlook paper 59 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:19,230 Qian Wang: is focusing on, a structural shift to a higher interest 60 00:03:19,230 --> 00:03:23,220 Qian Wang: rate environment, which will endure beyond the current business cycle, 61 00:03:23,220 --> 00:03:26,639 Qian Wang: right? Yes, central bank they will cut this year, but 62 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,129 Qian Wang: even if they cut, interest rate will settle at a 63 00:03:29,130 --> 00:03:32,579 Qian Wang: higher level than what we have seen since the GFC. 64 00:03:32,580 --> 00:03:35,309 Qian Wang: So basically zero interest rate are yesterday's news. 65 00:03:35,669 --> 00:03:37,710 Sean Aylmer : Yeah. Okay. So let's look at some of the... I mean, 66 00:03:37,710 --> 00:03:38,970 Sean Aylmer : I want to talk about Australia in a moment, but 67 00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:41,280 Sean Aylmer : let's look at some of the global economies. Let's start 68 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,680 Sean Aylmer : with the US. What do you think will happen in 69 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,060 Sean Aylmer : the US in the next year or two? 70 00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:49,230 Qian Wang: Well, I think, look back into 2023, one of the 71 00:03:49,230 --> 00:03:52,890 Qian Wang: biggest surprise was how resilient the US economy was, right? 72 00:03:53,459 --> 00:03:56,130 Qian Wang: On one hand we could say, " Yeah, monetary policy always 73 00:03:56,130 --> 00:03:58,830 Qian Wang: have a long and variable lag of transmission, so we 74 00:03:58,890 --> 00:04:01,320 Qian Wang: just got to be a little bit patient." But there's 75 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:06,420 Qian Wang: also many other offsetting forces that actually offset the impact 76 00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:10,949 Qian Wang: from monetary tightening, right? So if not for those offset 77 00:04:11,010 --> 00:04:13,950 Qian Wang: then US economy will have been on track for flat, 78 00:04:14,670 --> 00:04:19,440 Qian Wang: stay flat last year, instead of 2. 5% in 2023. Now 79 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,339 Qian Wang: in 2024, many of those offsets, like excess saving for 80 00:04:23,339 --> 00:04:27,629 Qian Wang: household, fiscal stimulus will fade and monetary policy will start 81 00:04:27,630 --> 00:04:31,830 Qian Wang: to bite. So we actually expect a minor recession in 82 00:04:31,890 --> 00:04:34,740 Qian Wang: the second half of this year with unemployment rate going 83 00:04:34,740 --> 00:04:38,340 Qian Wang: towards say around 5% by the end of this year. 84 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:42,450 Qian Wang: I think the market is expecting a soft landing. That 85 00:04:42,450 --> 00:04:46,560 Qian Wang: is possible, but it's not our baseline at this moment. 86 00:04:46,859 --> 00:04:49,500 Qian Wang: Something has to give. If you want to bring down 87 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:53,279 Qian Wang: inflation to 2%, the last mile is always the most 88 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,690 Qian Wang: difficult, something has to give. So that recession is probably 89 00:04:57,690 --> 00:04:58,410 Qian Wang: what is needed. 90 00:04:59,070 --> 00:05:01,888 Sean Aylmer : And that means that rates will fall in the US at some 91 00:05:01,889 --> 00:05:03,660 Sean Aylmer : point in the next couple of quarters? 92 00:05:04,260 --> 00:05:08,219 Qian Wang: Yes. I think slightly different from the market expectation. The 93 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:11,670 Qian Wang: market was expecting an early cut, could be starting in 94 00:05:11,670 --> 00:05:14,729 Qian Wang: March, but in our view, we don't think the Fed 95 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,240 Qian Wang: need to rush into monetary easing at this moment because 96 00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:20,849 Qian Wang: inflation, especially when you look at the rich worlds and 97 00:05:20,849 --> 00:05:24,720 Qian Wang: core inflation, still very sticky. So inflation is still having 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,870 Qian Wang: the risk that they could re- accelerate if the Fed 99 00:05:27,870 --> 00:05:31,200 Qian Wang: cut too early, if that is a premature cut. So 100 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,059 Qian Wang: that's where we think the Fed probably will start to 101 00:05:33,059 --> 00:05:35,639 Qian Wang: cut in the middle of this year when they see 102 00:05:35,639 --> 00:05:39,209 Qian Wang: more evidence that labor market is softening and the economy 103 00:05:39,210 --> 00:05:43,500 Qian Wang: is sliding into a recession. And we expect about 150 104 00:05:43,500 --> 00:05:45,930 Qian Wang: base point to 200 base point cut this year. 105 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,960 Sean Aylmer : Stay with me Qian, we'll be back in a minute. 106 00:05:55,259 --> 00:05:59,159 Sean Aylmer : I'm speaking to Dr. Qian Wang, Vanguard's chief economist for 107 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:04,020 Sean Aylmer : the Asia- Pacific region. Okay. Tell me, what about Europe? 108 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:09,539 Qian Wang: Yeah. Now, it's interesting. Europe's story is very similar to 109 00:06:09,540 --> 00:06:13,080 Qian Wang: the US when you see inflation rising, central bank hike 110 00:06:13,139 --> 00:06:17,190 Qian Wang: aggressively, but in Europe the difference is that the European 111 00:06:17,190 --> 00:06:20,969 Qian Wang: economy has slowed quite significantly and likely already in a 112 00:06:20,970 --> 00:06:26,010 Qian Wang: recession. Now, one key difference is that monetary policy tightening 113 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:30,509 Qian Wang: is actually much more effective in Europe when the economy 114 00:06:30,509 --> 00:06:33,839 Qian Wang: actually counts more on the banks for funding rather than 115 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,140 Qian Wang: capital markets. So higher rates actually kicks in much faster. 116 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,130 Qian Wang: And also in Euro area, fiscal policy is also more 117 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:46,829 Qian Wang: restrictive. So in 2024, we expect European economy to remain 118 00:06:46,830 --> 00:06:51,419 Qian Wang: very subdued, 0. 5 to 1%, because monetary policy will 119 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:55,170 Qian Wang: continue to bite and fiscal policy continue to be restrictive, 120 00:06:55,470 --> 00:06:58,950 Qian Wang: and as a result, ECB will also have to cut in 121 00:06:58,950 --> 00:07:01,920 Qian Wang: the second half of this year by about 75 base points. 122 00:07:02,339 --> 00:07:06,210 Sean Aylmer : Okay. What about closer to home here? Asian economies and 123 00:07:06,210 --> 00:07:09,150 Sean Aylmer : obviously China is incredibly... and China and Japan are the two big 124 00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:11,879 Sean Aylmer : ones for Australia because we export so much stuff to 125 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:13,800 Sean Aylmer : those two economies. What's the outlook for them? 126 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:19,740 Qian Wang: I think one of the biggest disappointment in 2023 was the weak and 127 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:23,880 Qian Wang: very bumpy recovery in the Chinese economy following the post- 128 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,139 Qian Wang: pandemic opening. Now when you look at China economy, they 129 00:07:28,139 --> 00:07:32,100 Qian Wang: just announced the GDP growth this week. They actually achieved 130 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:35,280 Qian Wang: a 5.2% growth rate and they achieved their gross target. 131 00:07:35,610 --> 00:07:38,250 Qian Wang: But that is largely because of very low base in 132 00:07:38,340 --> 00:07:41,969 Qian Wang: 2022. If you look at the economy, the private sector 133 00:07:41,969 --> 00:07:45,210 Qian Wang: spending and confidence are very weak and the government is 134 00:07:45,210 --> 00:07:50,250 Qian Wang: reluctant to stimulate aggressively because of financial stability concern. The 135 00:07:50,250 --> 00:07:53,550 Qian Wang: good news is that policy support is coming and we 136 00:07:53,550 --> 00:07:57,239 Qian Wang: expect more. So that could actually help to sustain a 137 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,500 Qian Wang: continued, but still very weak and slow, recovery of the 138 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:04,109 Qian Wang: economy. But one thing I do want to highlight about 139 00:08:04,109 --> 00:08:06,960 Qian Wang: the Chinese economy is that now we come to a 140 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,410 Qian Wang: better understanding, the downturn in China is not just cyclical 141 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:14,819 Qian Wang: but also structural, right? You have tons of structural headwinds, 142 00:08:15,090 --> 00:08:21,210 Qian Wang: demographic, right? A shift in global supply chain, more property 143 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,260 Qian Wang: downturning is structural, not just cyclical. And also the strength 144 00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:28,500 Qian Wang: and control of the state sector in the economy, that 145 00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:32,760 Qian Wang: is actually hurting private sector animal spirit. So putting that 146 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,520 Qian Wang: together, I would say when you think about the trend 147 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,460 Qian Wang: growth of China, before the global financial crisis, it was 148 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:41,699 Qian Wang: over 10%. Now we say it's probably in the low 149 00:08:41,699 --> 00:08:45,540 Qian Wang: 4% range and we expect it to decline further to 150 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:47,940 Qian Wang: say around 3 or even below by the end of 151 00:08:47,940 --> 00:08:48,720 Qian Wang: this decade. 152 00:08:49,230 --> 00:08:50,820 Sean Aylmer : Okay. Very quickly, Japan? 153 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:55,950 Qian Wang: Yeah, I think Japan is actually coming to a better 154 00:08:56,070 --> 00:09:00,328 Qian Wang: situation at this moment. Japan actually has gone through 30 155 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,958 Qian Wang: years of de- leverage, especially in the private sector, both corporate 156 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,809 Qian Wang: and household. So to that extent, at this moment when 157 00:09:06,809 --> 00:09:10,228 Qian Wang: you look at the Japan private sector, their balance sheet 158 00:09:10,230 --> 00:09:14,609 Qian Wang: is very strong. And then from an income perspective, corporate 159 00:09:14,610 --> 00:09:17,549 Qian Wang: profit and also the labor market and wage growth is 160 00:09:17,549 --> 00:09:20,790 Qian Wang: actually picking up. So I think that they are in a better 161 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,660 Qian Wang: situation and the economy is also getting out of this 162 00:09:25,140 --> 00:09:29,848 Qian Wang: deflation or low inflation mindset because of a structural shortage 163 00:09:29,849 --> 00:09:33,480 Qian Wang: in labor supply, as well as a structural shift in 164 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:38,100 Qian Wang: terms of price setting and wage setting behavior. So down 165 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:40,170 Qian Wang: the road, I would say in the very near term, 166 00:09:40,170 --> 00:09:42,810 Qian Wang: I think Japan is still facing a lot of significant 167 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:48,478 Qian Wang: external headwinds, given they are so reliant on global manufacturing 168 00:09:48,599 --> 00:09:51,269 Qian Wang: demand. So I think in the near term there could 169 00:09:51,270 --> 00:09:55,230 Qian Wang: be more cyclical headwinds, but I would say if you 170 00:09:55,230 --> 00:10:00,210 Qian Wang: look beyond 2024, I think there's actually more upside from 171 00:10:00,270 --> 00:10:02,849 Qian Wang: the Japan side and as a result, BOJ will have 172 00:10:02,849 --> 00:10:06,870 Qian Wang: to continue with the normalization, hence lifting the interest rate 173 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:08,340 Qian Wang: out of the negative territory. 174 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,760 Sean Aylmer : Okay. So putting all this together, the return to sound 175 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,338 Sean Aylmer : money and what you've just talked about in terms of 176 00:10:14,340 --> 00:10:18,630 Sean Aylmer : the macroeconomic outlooks for those economies, what's it mean for 177 00:10:18,630 --> 00:10:21,569 Sean Aylmer : investors? So if I'm an Australian investor looking to invest 178 00:10:21,570 --> 00:10:24,478 Sean Aylmer : overseas in one of those big economies, we know interest 179 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,030 Sean Aylmer : rates are going to be higher, we know that things 180 00:10:27,030 --> 00:10:29,549 Sean Aylmer : are going to be back to normal, whatever normal is, 181 00:10:29,910 --> 00:10:32,100 Sean Aylmer : and you've just given us a rundown on the economies, 182 00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:34,290 Sean Aylmer : where should they be looking? Is it kind of back 183 00:10:34,290 --> 00:10:37,590 Sean Aylmer : to more traditional 60/ 40 portfolios? 184 00:10:38,309 --> 00:10:41,339 Qian Wang: So you see, I think the transition towards a higher 185 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:44,759 Qian Wang: interest rate could actually lead to a lot of volatility 186 00:10:44,759 --> 00:10:48,990 Qian Wang: in the near term as you actually opened. For household, 187 00:10:48,990 --> 00:10:52,260 Qian Wang: they have to... saving will be more attractive, borrowing will 188 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:55,828 Qian Wang: be more costly. For business, that's the same as well. 189 00:10:55,830 --> 00:10:59,968 Qian Wang: And for government, higher risk will raise concern about fiscal sustainability 190 00:10:59,969 --> 00:11:03,179 Qian Wang: and force a reassessment of fiscal policy. That's the same 191 00:11:03,179 --> 00:11:06,268 Qian Wang: for investor. When we are in this kind of a 192 00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:09,270 Qian Wang: shift towards the higher interest rate environment, a lot of 193 00:11:09,270 --> 00:11:13,200 Qian Wang: adjustment will need to be made. One example we can 194 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,599 Qian Wang: use is bond. For the past two years, it has 195 00:11:15,599 --> 00:11:20,488 Qian Wang: been quite painful for our bond investor. However, the good 196 00:11:20,490 --> 00:11:23,789 Qian Wang: news is that when the transition is done, higher interest 197 00:11:23,789 --> 00:11:27,030 Qian Wang: rate will provide a good foundation for higher risk- adjusted 198 00:11:27,030 --> 00:11:30,569 Qian Wang: return in the long run. So now we are heading 199 00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:34,170 Qian Wang: towards the end of the structural shift, and then central 200 00:11:34,170 --> 00:11:36,750 Qian Wang: bank across the world is already at the peak of 201 00:11:36,750 --> 00:11:40,319 Qian Wang: the hiking cycle. So then for bond investor in particular, 202 00:11:40,590 --> 00:11:44,760 Qian Wang: the worst is behind us. The price suffer. On the 203 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,460 Qian Wang: other hand, the higher interest rate means you got higher 204 00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:52,108 Qian Wang: coupon income in the long term. So from a long- 205 00:11:52,110 --> 00:11:56,670 Qian Wang: term perspective, our bond market return improved from 1. 3 206 00:11:56,670 --> 00:12:00,238 Qian Wang: to 2. 3% two years ago, when interest rate was 207 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:05,460 Qian Wang: literally zero, to now 4.3 to 5. 3% from the bond market, 208 00:12:06,059 --> 00:12:08,730 Qian Wang: and also with higher bond yield. We also say the 209 00:12:08,730 --> 00:12:12,119 Qian Wang: diversification benefit of a bond in that balanced portfolio is 210 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,999 Qian Wang: also back, right? So this is where we say bond 211 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,510 Qian Wang: is back and because of better return on local bond, 212 00:12:18,750 --> 00:12:24,809 Qian Wang: even for balanced say 60/ 40 portfolio, their outlook also improved 213 00:12:24,809 --> 00:12:27,960 Qian Wang: quite significantly. Now, of course you could say, should I 214 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,399 Qian Wang: stick to 60/40? I would say because of the significant improvement in 215 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:38,280 Qian Wang: bond return, equity return is still decent, but relatively speaking, 216 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:41,429 Qian Wang: we would prefer bond at this moment. So this is 217 00:12:41,429 --> 00:12:45,480 Qian Wang: where we would advise a more conservative portfolio for investors 218 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:46,199 Qian Wang: at this moment. 219 00:12:46,830 --> 00:12:49,199 Sean Aylmer : Qian, thank you very much for talking to Fear and Greed. 220 00:12:49,770 --> 00:12:50,429 Qian Wang: Thank you. 221 00:12:51,089 --> 00:12:55,020 Sean Aylmer : That was Dr. Qian Wang, Vanguard's chief economist for the Asia- 222 00:12:55,049 --> 00:12:57,569 Sean Aylmer : Pacific region. This is the Fear and Greed Business interview. 223 00:12:57,570 --> 00:13:00,960 Sean Aylmer : Remember, this is general information only and you should seek 224 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,708 Sean Aylmer : professional advice before making investment decisions. Join us every morning 225 00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:06,839 Sean Aylmer : for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's best 226 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,838 Sean Aylmer : business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.