WEBVTT - Would you take MDMA for therapy? 

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, welcome to Healthy Ish. Thanks for joining us

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<v Speaker 1>on the daily podcast from Body and Soul. I am

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<v Speaker 1>for listening, Harley. MDMA therapy is now legal, yet still controversial.

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<v Speaker 1>Author and social researcher Rebecca Huntley joins us in the

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<v Speaker 1>studio today to discuss her experiences around taking the drug

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<v Speaker 1>as an unconventional form of therapy. It's important to note

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<v Speaker 1>that only psychiatrists registered in Australia who have obtained permission

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<v Speaker 1>from both a Human Research Ethics Committee and the TGA

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<v Speaker 1>are able to prescribe MDMA to patients with certain mental

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<v Speaker 1>health conditions. This podcast tells one person's story, It is

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<v Speaker 1>not proposing MDMA as a cure all. Now, we keep

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<v Speaker 1>our Healthist episode short, so if you want to hear

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<v Speaker 1>my full chat with Rebecca, listening to our sister pod

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<v Speaker 1>and you can grab extra healthy Ish where we get

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<v Speaker 1>your podcasts. Rebecca, Welcome to Healthy Ish.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Nice to have you well in the studio. Yes, we

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<v Speaker 1>talk a lot well on DMS. I think we do

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<v Speaker 1>understand it to do that's right, But you're here to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about MDMA. Now, I'd still bristle when I'm talking.

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<v Speaker 2>About you look like a police burst into the door.

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<v Speaker 1>It is legal, yet it's still controversial. Where are we

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<v Speaker 1>at culturally with MDMA and taking it for therapy reasons.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's legal in a very kind of narrow way.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's been it's now legal for prescribing psychiatrists. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to be a psychiatrist and you have to be

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<v Speaker 2>basically allowed by the government to prescribe it to clients.

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<v Speaker 2>The moment is about twenty three psychiatrists in Australia who

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<v Speaker 2>are well, not many through the process, so it's pretty

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<v Speaker 2>much illegal. But yeah, also to speak, so it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>an emerging therapy, but there is an enormous amount of

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<v Speaker 2>interest in so there's a there's a small amount of

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<v Speaker 2>people who can do it growing and a huge amount

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<v Speaker 2>of interest in it as a drug in the therapeutic

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<v Speaker 2>setting rather than in the nightclub setting.

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<v Speaker 1>And what's been the response to you admitting and coming

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<v Speaker 1>out in your book that you know you've taken it

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<v Speaker 1>a few times for therapeutic reasons.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I was very worried about it because you're worried

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<v Speaker 2>that you're kind of people are going to judge you.

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<v Speaker 2>You're worry that people are going to look at you differently,

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<v Speaker 2>because up until this point I've got you know.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got some very very impressive credentials behind you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, if people know me at all, they

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<v Speaker 2>know me as somebody on the Q and A and

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<v Speaker 2>the drama talking about you know what I mean, in

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<v Speaker 2>the newspapers talking about politics and nment.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep.

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<v Speaker 2>So, but what has come out is not so much

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<v Speaker 2>that lots of people have taken it for therapeutic reasons,

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<v Speaker 2>but that the kinds of reasons I took it much

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<v Speaker 2>more common than you would imagine. And actually it's been

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<v Speaker 2>surprisingly positive, and perhaps because the negative people stay away,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's been surprised, you know, it's been surprisingly positive.

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<v Speaker 2>I did say that when a couple of days before

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<v Speaker 2>the book came out, I said it felt like I

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<v Speaker 2>was walking a tightrope naked over a mosh pit of

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<v Speaker 2>my ex boyfriends. That's how exposed for a fabulous description.

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<v Speaker 2>That's hour it sounds like a nightmare, I know exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, what everybody's going to be looking at me?

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<v Speaker 2>But actually I've been really happy, and I just show

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<v Speaker 2>it just shows that actually we're hopefully in a society,

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<v Speaker 2>we're being vulnerable and talking about mental health. The return

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<v Speaker 2>on investment for that is so much more than the

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<v Speaker 2>attacks that you might get.

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<v Speaker 1>So for anyone thinking okay, why did you take it,

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<v Speaker 1>give us a quick snapshot of why you took it,

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<v Speaker 1>and then when you took it, Yeah, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean the origins are I kind of grew up in

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<v Speaker 2>a household that for a lot of people look like

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<v Speaker 2>very privileged, middle class household, and it was, but behind

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<v Speaker 2>the closed doors, there was an enormous amount of violence

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<v Speaker 2>all the way up until I was a teenager, and

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<v Speaker 2>a very fraud relationship with my mother, and then in

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<v Speaker 2>my early thirties, I had a stillbirth and two miscarriages

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<v Speaker 2>very quickly, like in a very short period of time,

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<v Speaker 2>and so a lot and you know, eating disorders, all

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of things in there. And I've been in therapy

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<v Speaker 2>for thirty years, like I'd been doing all the things

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<v Speaker 2>that you and I know and we google how do

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<v Speaker 2>you maintain your mental health? I was doing them more

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<v Speaker 2>eating well, not too much alcohol, time and nature exercise relationships.

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<v Speaker 2>But at fifty, I felt like all of those things

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<v Speaker 2>weren't really keeping a lead on my explosive, churning anger.

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<v Speaker 2>And I really didn't want not that my children have

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<v Speaker 2>ever been the target of my anger. But we carry

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<v Speaker 2>our parents. We carry the energy of our parents in

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<v Speaker 2>our world, whether we like it or not. We carry

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<v Speaker 2>their joy, and we can carry their anger and frustration

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<v Speaker 2>and sadness. And I just didn't want my children to

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<v Speaker 2>carry my anger into their lives, so I started looking

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<v Speaker 2>for I didn't know at the time, but I was

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<v Speaker 2>potentially searching for something else to help me.

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<v Speaker 1>You say that your experiences do you call what micro docing?

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you? I had a macro dose. I

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<v Speaker 2>had so much empty may two doses that I move

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<v Speaker 2>for eight hours. So microdosing is a little bit like

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<v Speaker 2>small amount of psilocybin or whatever. I was given a

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<v Speaker 2>kind of hero dose and then after four hours another dose.

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<v Speaker 2>So normally these sessions, I mean, some people move around,

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<v Speaker 2>but I didn't. I lay on the couch and didn't

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<v Speaker 2>move for eight hours.

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<v Speaker 1>And you barely move right that it cracked you open,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean. And some people say that it almost gives

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<v Speaker 1>words to emotions. Oh absolutely, what How what was the

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<v Speaker 1>experience so transformative?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the way MDMA works, and this is pure MDMA.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to make sure that people know that if

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<v Speaker 2>they go out and buy XSS or get ecstasy. It's

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<v Speaker 2>hard to know how much actual pure MDMA is in.

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<v Speaker 2>There could be all kinds of things, but mine was

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<v Speaker 2>pure MDMA, no speed or anything. And what MMA does,

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<v Speaker 2>in Layman's terms, is it kind of cloaks you're amygdala,

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<v Speaker 2>which is part of your.

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<v Speaker 1>Brain that the fear fital flight.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybodies about that, and it kind of tucks it at

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<v Speaker 2>a nice diner of serotonin, so it takes it offline.

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<v Speaker 2>And because I had been living with the consequences of,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, violence, even before memory, my fight or flight

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<v Speaker 2>was just always on. I didn't even I didn't even know.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what it was like to be relaxed.

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<v Speaker 2>And then suddenly what happens when you take that away

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<v Speaker 2>is the things that you've been suppressing, pushing away, fighting

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<v Speaker 2>against and forgetting, they suddenly to flow. The doors fling open,

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<v Speaker 2>and these things start to unravel and come out, and

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<v Speaker 2>you confront them in a way in which you are

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<v Speaker 2>actually feeling quite safe and secure. And so ideally it's

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<v Speaker 2>to help your whole nervous system, your brain and everything

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<v Speaker 2>process these emotions and these memories that you've only barely

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<v Speaker 2>been able to look out at the side of your eye.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's what it does. And if you are well

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<v Speaker 2>prepared and well resourced and prepared to put in the work,

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<v Speaker 2>you are processing things that have held you back for decades.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what happened to me. And it still happens

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<v Speaker 2>every now and then, even though it was a year

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<v Speaker 2>or ago more since I did it. I'll be walking

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<v Speaker 2>along and something will pop out, or I'll remember something

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<v Speaker 2>in a particular way, but then I'm like, oh no,

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<v Speaker 2>that's actually not what happened.

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<v Speaker 1>So how do you feel now, like what compared to

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<v Speaker 1>before you went through? Like how would you describe how

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<v Speaker 1>you feel as Rebecca? I feel.

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<v Speaker 2>I know this sounds like a really small thing. I

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<v Speaker 2>am capable of getting up on a Sunday and not

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<v Speaker 2>doing a lot and resting and not seeing resting as

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<v Speaker 2>cheating or wrong or weird or strange in my body.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a lot less reactive, a lot less angry. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>much more compassionate, you know, if something happens, I'm less

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<v Speaker 2>likely to even when when there's some road rage, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>when somebody's beeping me. But previously i'd be like you

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<v Speaker 2>know what, I'd be a few now And now I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a lot better, not all the time. I'm not a

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<v Speaker 2>saint of sitting back and just curiously thinking, Wow, that

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<v Speaker 2>person is really angry. I wonder what happened to them,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wonder what kind of day they're having. So

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<v Speaker 2>that is really important. It's particularly important in my parenting.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I'm just so much better at not letting

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<v Speaker 2>myself get overwhelmed when everything piles on top of me.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm also a lot better at saying, oh, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to do that, I don't want to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>and not feeling like I have to explain. So all

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<v Speaker 2>of this is slowly, slowly inching my way towards some

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<v Speaker 2>self compassion, which I probably have never had. You can

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<v Speaker 2>only really have compassion empathy for other people if you

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<v Speaker 2>can practice it for yourself. So I feel different. I

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<v Speaker 2>actually feel like I'm in a slightly different body than

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<v Speaker 2>I had before I did this work.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting, So what are you hoping people will get out

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<v Speaker 1>of your book and of you speaking out around your experiences.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think there's a growing and really important interest

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<v Speaker 2>in trauma. More broadly, we're becoming a little bit more

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<v Speaker 2>trauma informed in our approaches to things. Hence the really

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<v Speaker 2>huge success of books like The Body Keeps the School,

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<v Speaker 2>so I think that's really important. Understanding nature of intergenerational

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<v Speaker 2>trauma is particularly important in a place like Australia. So

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<v Speaker 2>you can read the book and understand how trauma shows

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<v Speaker 2>up as an adult in a way where you don't

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily go away and think you want to try the therapy.

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<v Speaker 2>But I basically wrote the book because Australia is at

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<v Speaker 2>the forefront of legalizing these therapies, where we've got numerous

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<v Speaker 2>very exciting and interesting clinical trials around Australia looking at

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<v Speaker 2>how MDMA might help with things like PTSD, eating disorders,

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<v Speaker 2>consistent grief, all these kinds of issues that we spend

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<v Speaker 2>an enormous amount of time, energy and money, let alone

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<v Speaker 2>the pain of those people to try and address. So

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<v Speaker 2>we're in this kind of very fragile, very important, globally

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<v Speaker 2>significant moment with these therapies. I had an amazing experience.

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<v Speaker 2>I can see how they can be incredible, but also

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<v Speaker 2>how they could go off the right el. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>why I'm speaking out about something about things that are

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<v Speaker 2>very still very sensitive and in some ways still painful.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you for bringing your story to Healthy Action.

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<v Speaker 1>Nice to have you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Listeners. If you are interested in more from re Becca,

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<v Speaker 1>her book about love loss and MDMA therapy is out now.

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<v Speaker 1>It is called Sassafras. I will leave a link to

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<v Speaker 1>it in the show notes. And of course, if this

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<v Speaker 1>brought up anything for you, lifeline is there twenty four

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<v Speaker 1>seven one three one one one four anything else, head

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<v Speaker 1>to body insoul dot com dot you follow us on socials.

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<v Speaker 1>You can DM me at Felicity Harley. If you have

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<v Speaker 1>any thoughts or feedback, grab our print edition which is

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<v Speaker 1>out in your local Sunday paper, and until tomorrow, stay

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<v Speaker 1>healthy