Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded and produced on gadigal Land.
Speaker 2: We would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians and pay
Speaker 2: our respect to Elder's past and present.
Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, Can I please have your attention? This
Speaker 3: is my final MATHS related interview. Are they talking about me?
Speaker 3: She's like, yep.
Speaker 2: It was Australia's reactions because a lot of drama and
Speaker 2: they never got it.
Speaker 4: It just went nuts.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome back to another episode off back to reality.
Speaker 1: I'm Selena and I'm Tany and today we have, for
Speaker 1: the first time, in fact to reality history, our first
Speaker 1: ever non reality ya Pista. I big for us, very
Speaker 1: excited because this is not what I think you guys
Speaker 1: would expect from us. If he's ever made it to
Speaker 1: Legal Talk, which I am immersed in, you would probably
Speaker 1: recognize his face, if not his iconic mustache.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But what I love about this particular guess is I'm
Speaker 1: not the sharpest tool in the shed. I'm the kid
Speaker 1: that sit next to Tarni and copy her work. But
Speaker 1: the way this person explains things, he just it's so simple.
Speaker 1: It's like if I can understand anyone can understand it.
Speaker 1: He breaks down celebrity cases like the Justin Baldoni and
Speaker 1: like Lively from like how to Claim Insurance claim if
Speaker 1: a Hurricane's drunk?
Speaker 4: Yeah, like with Naughty.
Speaker 1: Stars mass So we thought, why not have the man,
Speaker 1: the myth, the legend. Jihan Kalanta Welcome, what an intro.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. Can you guys follow me everywhere?
Speaker 4: Let's get into it.
Speaker 2: I think it'd be great to give the audience a
Speaker 2: little context about you and how you got started in
Speaker 2: the legal industry, because it's personally something I'm quite interested
Speaker 2: in and I just love to hear how you got
Speaker 2: there and then the transition to this social TikTok ozzy
Speaker 2: lawyer space.
Speaker 4: Love it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look up. So I've been a lawyer now for
Speaker 3: I think thirteen years. I kind of came into it
Speaker 3: after a career in banking. I didn't really like it,
Speaker 3: and I went to law school post banking, and I
Speaker 3: kind of fell sort of into this practice of criminal defense,
Speaker 3: family law, sort of clients that have faces and clients
Speaker 3: that have stories, and I really enjoyed it. And I've
Speaker 3: been doing that for pretty much NonStop for thirteen years,
Speaker 3: in different capacities, in different practice areas. But about five
Speaker 3: years ago. You guys probably remember during the COVID nineteen pandemic.
Speaker 3: Essentially we had a huge reshuffle here in Sydney and
Speaker 3: every day at eleven am, the Premier would come out
Speaker 3: and be like, hey, these many people are dead, this
Speaker 3: people are sick. Here's a new law by and would
Speaker 3: bail And I was like, well, that didn't make any
Speaker 3: sense to me, and my practice is on hold, I've
Speaker 3: got stuff. It was really stressful, and so I thought,
Speaker 3: I'm going to explain sort of how these rules work.
Speaker 3: And the first thing I did was I read a
Speaker 3: really detailed LinkedIn article like no one read, no one
Speaker 3: cared at all. And then there was this thing called
Speaker 3: TikTok that was kind of popping off. Kids were doing
Speaker 3: dances on it. I thought I might explain like how
Speaker 3: a LGAF concern works on TikTok, and like overnight I
Speaker 3: got a hundred followers, which was crazy crazy. Yeah, that
Speaker 3: was like unimaginable to me. So I just kept at it,
Speaker 3: and slowly, over time, I've come to understand that people
Speaker 3: really need access to the justice system. They feel a
Speaker 3: little bit overwhelmed, and I don't think that we as
Speaker 3: lawyers are particularly good at communicating what information people need.
Speaker 3: And so I've created sort of my TikTok channel and
Speaker 3: across TikTok, install YouTube, sort of LinkedIn and other channels
Speaker 3: kind of explaining the lord, making it a bit simpler
Speaker 3: because it is complicated, but you don't need to know
Speaker 3: the complicated part. You just need to understand the dynamics.
Speaker 3: And so that's what I try to do in my channels.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were talking off Mike before.
Speaker 2: How I think when you think of like the legal
Speaker 2: system or like lawyers, you think it's like a faceless person.
Speaker 4: You're like, where would you actually go to look.
Speaker 2: For someone and like what like specializing field that they
Speaker 2: are like you literally I'll go and look on TikTok
Speaker 2: like lawyer for X, Whereas before you just would be
Speaker 2: googling and the website like there's no one's faces on there.
Speaker 2: You don't know who the person is representing you. And
Speaker 2: it's especially when it's quite like personal things or whatever
Speaker 2: the issue is, it's really hard to be like am
Speaker 2: I gonna trust this person too?
Speaker 4: Am I going to go to jail?
Speaker 3: Or like what you've made? And this is a story
Speaker 3: I always tell. We had a client that basically found
Speaker 3: us online and he came to a conference. And this
Speaker 3: is before the TikTok thing blew up. And I always
Speaker 3: ask people like, why did you choose our law firm?
Speaker 3: And he goes, well, it's really funny. I went to
Speaker 3: like five different law firm sites because I was it
Speaker 3: was an ip technical dispute about who owns the rights
Speaker 3: to something. And he goes, I went to five different
Speaker 3: websites and four of them had like these lawyers like
Speaker 3: looking sad and angry, like you know, like, and then
Speaker 3: there was your website and you seem like you were
Speaker 3: smiling and happy and normal and like, I just wanted
Speaker 3: to chatter that someone. Yeah, And so I realized that
Speaker 3: from that experience that people there's going to be people
Speaker 3: who see a smiley, happy, layering thing. That person doesn't
Speaker 3: get it. They shouldn't, they don't, you know, they're not
Speaker 3: right lawyer for me. But there'll be other people who,
Speaker 3: just like you've said, they want to speak to a human,
Speaker 3: they want to see a face, They want to get
Speaker 3: someone who understands things, watches reality TV and is like
Speaker 3: a normal human being. And so I think it's really
Speaker 3: important to spread the message that lawyers come in all stripes,
Speaker 3: including weirdos like myself with funky mustaches.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, we'll speak of reality TV. Do you watch reality TV?
Speaker 2: And what's your what's your favorite show?
Speaker 3: In our household? A lot of reality TV is watched
Speaker 3: mostly by my beloved wife.
Speaker 2: Your wife is beautiful, by the way, we love her.
Speaker 3: Big shout out to Hannah. She she should really be here.
Speaker 3: She's she's the reality TV champion of the house. But
Speaker 3: a lot of it is watched over my shoulder. Love
Speaker 3: is blind. Yeah, and we just last night last night
Speaker 3: she watched I observed, but she watched the wedding episode
Speaker 3: and it was who stayed together and who didn't. So yes,
Speaker 3: a lot of reality TV show is watching our house.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love so that.
Speaker 1: Would you say that's your favorite show?
Speaker 3: I must say if you want to me what mine
Speaker 3: is too hot to handle?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, And I'll tell you why.
Speaker 3: Because you've got these people who are so attractive, they've
Speaker 3: never been told no, and then they have to like
Speaker 3: be old. It's fantastic. It's a social experiment like like
Speaker 3: anything I've ever seen. Because they're not used to they're
Speaker 3: not used to hearing no and that is a wonderful
Speaker 3: thing to see. It's like like watching a child being
Speaker 3: told like no, no, you can't go and you can't
Speaker 3: just draw on the walls. It's that but for adults.
Speaker 4: And it seems like, guys, it's not that hard.
Speaker 3: Seriously, money on the table one hundred grand, just like
Speaker 3: be good for ten days.
Speaker 2: Seriously, it's a lot of amount of money.
Speaker 1: So what inspired you to make tiktoks to begin with?
Speaker 2: With?
Speaker 4: Like all the subjects you talk about, Well, the thing
Speaker 4: is I.
Speaker 3: Didn't know what people were weren't interested in. And so
Speaker 3: one of the funny things is when you are sitting
Speaker 3: in sort of the shoes of a lawyer, you think
Speaker 3: that people are like really interested in things like how
Speaker 3: does the separation of powers doctrine work? And no one
Speaker 3: cares about that sort of stuff. What people like? The
Speaker 3: number one question I got asked was can I drive barefeet?
Speaker 3: With bare feet? Res A good question, right, can you?
Speaker 3: You can? As long as you control the vehicle, you can?
Speaker 3: And so what people were interested in was understanding things like, well, look,
Speaker 3: how does how does the Justin Baldoni thing go down?
Speaker 3: How does the Johnny Depth thing go down? Yeah? What
Speaker 3: you know what when you know, they get up and
Speaker 3: say objection, hearsay, what does that mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so you start to get really good at
Speaker 3: understanding what people want to understand, and then you get
Speaker 3: curious as well, like with the Johnny Depp thing, crazy.
Speaker 2: The going on that, the whole seeing things in the
Speaker 2: public forum. I think with that case specifically, I completely
Speaker 2: disagree with like that was so done botched, and I
Speaker 2: just was like, this shit is not right, and I
Speaker 2: think it does sway public opinion and I think it
Speaker 2: does impact Like I'm an amber heard girly like I
Speaker 2: will be be there, like I know, I think they're
Speaker 2: both done really bad things. I just think she was
Speaker 2: never going to win that battle, and I think she
Speaker 2: also lied about things which made it.
Speaker 4: Worse for her.
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, like, it just was awful to
Speaker 2: watch the train wreck of that whole thing. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And from a lawyer's perspective, my mindset was more like, Okay,
Speaker 3: you've got an article in the Washington Post about two
Speaker 3: Californian movie stars going through a divorce. Why are we
Speaker 3: having a court case in Virginia and why is it
Speaker 3: being publicized in the world. That's an interesting question. League.
Speaker 3: How do you end up in Virginia behind that? How
Speaker 3: do you end up there? And so for me, I
Speaker 3: found that particularly fascinating. I found I mean, whether you
Speaker 3: like him or you hate him, and I think we
Speaker 3: can both agree both of them are highly problematic, particularly
Speaker 3: in that relationship context. But Johnny Dep's lawyers did a
Speaker 3: fantastic job totally. They did a fantastic want them and
Speaker 3: you know, and the caliber of the witnesses you see,
Speaker 3: you'll never see something like that because most of the time,
Speaker 3: the people with the resources to play at that level
Speaker 3: they settle. They settle ninety nine point nine percent of
Speaker 3: those cases. And so to be able to see that
Speaker 3: and see it play out in real time, it's like
Speaker 3: watching the oj trial, right, Like that's the only thing
Speaker 3: I can kind of like, yeah, it's this it's this
Speaker 3: circus that sways public opinion. And now we're seeing a
Speaker 3: lot more of it, like you see the Asap Rocky
Speaker 3: case with you know, the Megan the Stallion with Tory Lanes.
Speaker 3: It's it's becoming more of spectacle justice. And I think
Speaker 3: that's something that's gonna it's going to be a thing
Speaker 3: that happens. We have to get better at understanding how
Speaker 3: we can make sure that we don't lose we don't
Speaker 3: lose justice in the spectacle.
Speaker 1: You had a look over the Maths contract and you
Speaker 1: spoke about this on your tip.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I love that video. We referenced it in one of
Speaker 4: our first episodes.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, because I was like, it's I've never seen
Speaker 2: a lawyer speak about the contract ever before. And so
Speaker 2: when I was like, oh, you've actually seen it, be like,
Speaker 2: I'm dying to get your thoughts on it, and just
Speaker 2: one the most concerning clause that you saw.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So look, I won't tell you who engaged me.
Speaker 3: I won't tell you what season. I don't know if
Speaker 3: it's evolved. And I get what you're saying. It's like saying, hey,
Speaker 3: someone's all big foot, Like it's real. I've told you,
Speaker 3: but you know you're gonna like, yeah, it's true. What
Speaker 3: I'll say is this, I've read a lot of Look,
Speaker 3: I'm not an employment sorry, I'm not in a entertainment lawyer.
Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of contracts. The thing that's jumped
Speaker 3: out at me is the first page is in plain English,
Speaker 3: and it's basically like a warning you get on a
Speaker 3: can of bug spray like you will be portrayed however
Speaker 3: we want, we own you, like do like be very
Speaker 3: cautious of what you sign. And that to me was
Speaker 3: something quite unusual, And I mean good on them for
Speaker 3: at least like putting the label up front and letting
Speaker 3: you know. But things like you know we're going to
Speaker 3: record you. You may not be aware that we're recording
Speaker 3: you as a part of that particular contract. It's staggering.
Speaker 3: Like it's really genuinely staggering. And like when you look
Speaker 3: at particularly, I think a lot of people think, oh,
Speaker 3: you go on reality TV. It's going to be like
Speaker 3: a couple of hours of filming a day. It's gonna
Speaker 3: be like pretty chill. They get really good money. Nah,
Speaker 3: It's it's like it's like the work of a galley slave.
Speaker 3: Like you're working twelve, thirteen, fourteen hour days being paid
Speaker 3: like basically minimum wag. Yeah, very few, very few of
Speaker 3: the off the safeguards you'd have in a standard employment
Speaker 3: contractor there. And basically they are telling you, like, based
Speaker 3: on how we feel, we very well may portray you
Speaker 3: in a way that is completely disingenuous to who you
Speaker 3: actually are, and we may very well destroy your life.
Speaker 3: So to me, it is I can understand why people
Speaker 3: sign the thing because like, you know, you've got a shot.
Speaker 3: You gotta you know, you gotta sometimes you got to
Speaker 3: risk it for way Ski podcast. So it worked out
Speaker 3: to Yeah, it worked out few to you and you guys,
Speaker 3: that's a testament to your tenacity and your intelligence you
Speaker 3: pilate it correctly. But and I also think a lot
Speaker 3: of people think like you just go on the show
Speaker 3: and then that's it, Like as soon as the show's done,
Speaker 3: you just answer phone calls. Oh yeah, sure, I'll do
Speaker 3: that endorsement dealt.
Speaker 4: And it's just not realistic at all.
Speaker 3: It's a springboard. It's a springboard, and that's still.
Speaker 4: Ask but I think they do.
Speaker 2: They can kind of wave that around people as like
Speaker 2: a you and I remember from out like briefing chats,
Speaker 2: like they would be like, if you want to be
Speaker 2: like X y Z couples from the show all these people,
Speaker 2: you need to listen to what we tell you. And
Speaker 2: that's the kind of general sentiment you have going into it.
Speaker 2: And I was always very and I think we've had
Speaker 2: conversations about this very realistic. I'm like, Okay, I might
Speaker 2: look like an idiot. I need to just behave their
Speaker 2: way I would in real life, and then if people
Speaker 2: don't like me who I am, I would have to
Speaker 2: have to deal with that. The only thing is I
Speaker 2: was like, if they don't like me for something that's
Speaker 2: not who I am, is where I'm going to have
Speaker 2: a problem.
Speaker 4: But it's it's the roll of the dice.
Speaker 2: Right, And I say high risk, high reward, but extremely
Speaker 2: high risk, and only such a small percentage of people
Speaker 2: can even sustain their normal job even after the fact, right,
Speaker 2: Because I think there's not I guess again it's all
Speaker 2: in the contract, but I don't think there's a seriousness
Speaker 2: of like, hey, you probably shouldn't be a lawyer, a teacher,
Speaker 2: a certain careers. If you go on maths, I would
Speaker 2: be like, oh, there should be a list of careers
Speaker 2: to have that you should never ever ever go on
Speaker 2: a show because it's like, yeah, you're probably not going
Speaker 2: to work in that field again, even if you look good.
Speaker 2: It's just not really appropriate. And I don't think there's
Speaker 2: that like really intricate unless you're speaking to someone like
Speaker 2: yourself or like family and friends that are educating the space,
Speaker 2: you just wouldn't know.
Speaker 3: I spent hours trying to persuade my client not to
Speaker 3: go on this show. He was a smart guy. I
Speaker 3: knew him, he was a nice person. I spent a
Speaker 3: lot of energy telling him, don't do this. He did
Speaker 3: it anyway, right, So you can you know, I advise
Speaker 3: you decide. That's the role. That's my role, right, I
Speaker 3: advise you decide. Fundamentally, it speaks to I think exactly
Speaker 3: what you're saying, which is the what's not in the
Speaker 3: contract and what's not in the contract? Are those conversations? Listen,
Speaker 3: you want to be like this person, don't you like?
Speaker 3: This person's gone on to have such a della career.
Speaker 3: They were on this show and they did what I said.
Speaker 3: So if you follow the formula, you're going to be fine.
Speaker 4: She's like one in a hundred yea, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think the contestants have like any grounds
Speaker 1: to fight the contract after the fact?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: You you it's a I think pretty tight. It's pretty
Speaker 3: water tight. It's designed to be read and understood, and
Speaker 3: there's a time to have those negotiations. But I think
Speaker 3: that the power disparity is so substantial, right, because if
Speaker 3: you say no, I'm not going to sign this I
Speaker 3: want to change this. They go, no problem by and
Speaker 3: get put in someone else. Right, So it's a it's
Speaker 3: a seller's market. They can do as they wish. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And so I think it is a very much take
Speaker 3: it or leave a type situation. The only exception to
Speaker 3: that would be, let's say you're a high profile person
Speaker 3: coming into maths.
Speaker 4: Especially if they've approached you.
Speaker 2: I think it's different if you've applied versus you being scouted,
Speaker 2: because I know there were whispers of this conversation of
Speaker 2: certain like things being relaxed. I don't know where things eventuated,
Speaker 2: but people that were a roach or being asked multiple
Speaker 2: times they were able to like tighten a couple things
Speaker 2: in their favor.
Speaker 3: I think you should always always, whenever you're given a contract,
Speaker 3: you should always get legal advice on it. You should
Speaker 3: always push back, even if that means you lose the opportunity,
Speaker 3: so be it. Right. I always say, if someone's not
Speaker 3: willing to negotiate with you before they're in a relationship
Speaker 3: with you, they're not going to negotiate when they're in
Speaker 3: the relationship, right, So period, that's really simple. Right. So
Speaker 3: the dynamic bit that defines the relationship before entering it
Speaker 3: is going to define it during Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: And what advice would you give people looking to sign
Speaker 2: a contract like this, whether it's maths, whether it's another
Speaker 2: reality TV show?
Speaker 4: What would be your like number one advice.
Speaker 3: Go speak to a lawyer, Go speak to a lawyer,
Speaker 3: Tell me about yours. It also depends on the individual, right,
Speaker 3: Like should say you are a you know, you're a
Speaker 3: well respected and regarded teacher, and there's a possibility that
Speaker 3: you're never going to be able to work in that field. Again,
Speaker 3: that's a very different situation than you're like an eighteen
Speaker 3: year old and like this is what you have your
Speaker 3: heart set on. You really haven't really gone out there
Speaker 3: and tried other things. Very different, Yeah, very very different.
Speaker 3: And so you have to basically understand your client and
Speaker 3: understand the contract and make sure that it makes sense.
Speaker 3: But get advice. Yeah, definitely get advice.
Speaker 2: I didn't do this, but I think it's beneficial for
Speaker 2: future cast to reach out to past participants, especially the
Speaker 2: ones that they might want to emulate a career that
Speaker 2: they've had.
Speaker 4: It's I find interesting when I.
Speaker 2: See people go to like the villains or like the
Speaker 2: people that didn't have a good experience, as if it
Speaker 2: would kind of help them pave a path that would
Speaker 2: be different to the people that they're asking of.
Speaker 4: So I find that interesting.
Speaker 2: I always think like when you have these resources like
Speaker 2: go get legal advice, which we found like a lot
Speaker 2: of people just didn't do. Like I feel like in
Speaker 2: my season, I was like one of the only ones
Speaker 2: even had the lawyer like look over it, and it's
Speaker 2: just like that's crazy to me, Like I don't think
Speaker 2: I've had a contract that I haven't even had like
Speaker 2: my dad like.
Speaker 4: Give it, you know.
Speaker 2: Like it's like the contracts scare me, and I think,
Speaker 2: especially something like this, there's nothing scary than something like
Speaker 2: this type contract.
Speaker 3: It's look, I'm telling you, I look at contracts all day,
Speaker 3: and I look at big contracts. We're talking sales of
Speaker 3: multimillion dollar properties and whatnot. This is a big scary contract,
Speaker 3: Like it's intimidating.
Speaker 4: I was naughty. I didn't care to do that.
Speaker 1: I looked over at myself, but yeah, I guess like
Speaker 1: COVID time, that's when my show was on, and I
Speaker 1: was so desperate to find my husband, Like I was
Speaker 1: just blinded by anything else. So even if a lawyer
Speaker 1: had said to me. You know, it probably still would
Speaker 1: have just been like, what, I'm gonna meet my soul mate?
Speaker 3: You know yourself, right, And there's something to be said
Speaker 3: for that. There's something to be said for Look, I'm
Speaker 3: that gung ho on this that nothing you say is
Speaker 3: going to dissuade me. And look, sometimes I've been wrong.
Speaker 3: I've told people to Like there's been deals where I
Speaker 3: been like, you shouldn't do this, and then they did it.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, it ended up really really good. So all
Speaker 3: I can do is advise based on today. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: I think you also need to understand yourself. But at
Speaker 3: the very least going to someone and knowing, hey, they're
Speaker 3: going to do these eighteen things that I didn't expect.
Speaker 3: I better keep my If I was on the show,
Speaker 3: I would just be taking a sobriety break. I would
Speaker 3: not be drinking.
Speaker 2: I didn't.
Speaker 4: I had no alcoholic wine. The whole time.
Speaker 2: I was like, you were not catching me looking like
Speaker 2: a hot mess for the rest of my life.
Speaker 4: No, there's no way.
Speaker 2: So I had like not and I was just like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm just not interested in that.
Speaker 3: So smart, such a simple one, because you don't and
Speaker 3: you're filming the same scenes over and over again. They
Speaker 3: keep topping up the thing. Just there's so many little
Speaker 3: simple tricks you could use. I think that would make
Speaker 3: you experience slightly better.
Speaker 1: We were in the most severe lockdown.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there.
Speaker 1: Were no restaurants, pulb cafes to go to. We had,
Speaker 1: like we call them our dog walkers. Like you were
Speaker 1: only allowed out once a day for one hour with
Speaker 1: a producer. You couldn't even go on a walk with
Speaker 1: your partner. So alcohol is the only thing we had.
Speaker 4: So we just.
Speaker 1: Drank like little fishies. And that's why I think our
Speaker 1: season was so explosive.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: So yeah, entertain.
Speaker 2: Entertaining, well, we've seen this year a lot of the
Speaker 2: participants go a bit rogue on socials, create accounts, which,
Speaker 2: just to preface, there's your contract obligation with the production company.
Speaker 2: Then there's also your Channel nine social media engagement contract,
Speaker 2: which essentially signs away your usage of your socials to
Speaker 2: them for like six months. They'll post on your behalf
Speaker 2: that whole thing, and then you get the account back.
Speaker 2: And we've noticed a lot of people this year not
Speaker 2: do that because I thought we didn't really have a
Speaker 2: choice to kind of caught it and you just thought, oh,
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 4: To do this otherwise I don't know, And we've seen.
Speaker 2: Quite a bit of the cast go so rogue ruin
Speaker 2: storylines just completely go, just ruin the whole production essentially.
Speaker 2: Do you think there's any grounds for Channel nine and
Speaker 2: ESA to sue them or Yeah, it definitely is.
Speaker 3: I thought about this at some length. Why haven't they?
Speaker 3: They probably haven't because it's good for ratings and right
Speaker 3: now the Going Rogue has actually probably helped people about it,
Speaker 3: so maybe that's why they haven't. But I think they
Speaker 3: probably do have grounds to see if they wanted to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder I always wonder what would be their
Speaker 2: like trigger point, because I feel like it's progressively gets
Speaker 2: worse and worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I feel like by far I f feel
Speaker 1: worse in terms of going rogue and leaking stuff.
Speaker 3: I'm not the demographic and it's hitting my channel right,
Speaker 3: and so if it's hitting me, it's hitting everyone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like nothing gets done about it. I
Speaker 2: know there was people in my season that broke the rules. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then I was like, oh, well, there's no consequences
Speaker 2: to it, so why did I not do that? But
Speaker 2: also part of me kind of respects their courage to
Speaker 2: be so vocal about their experience because it is hard.
Speaker 2: I think typically if you were following the contract, following
Speaker 2: what has been set out, you're not allowed to comment
Speaker 2: on anything really, like when these storylines are happening, or
Speaker 2: when you look bad, you can't.
Speaker 4: You have to just cop it.
Speaker 2: So I think part of me does respect them being like, no, actually,
Speaker 2: this is how it happened some people. I probably agree
Speaker 2: with more others, but yeah, I think it's almost like
Speaker 2: people are like biting back, which.
Speaker 1: I know, Oh I just wait, just wait a few
Speaker 1: more weeks.
Speaker 2: People are still going to listen, Like, just wait out
Speaker 2: for the season to air. People will still listen to
Speaker 2: what you have to say.
Speaker 4: Trust me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that it's a highly emotive thing, and
Speaker 3: I can imagine if someone was portraying me in a
Speaker 3: way that was disingenuous, I would want to get on
Speaker 3: the front foot and be like, how dare you? Yeah,
Speaker 3: the other side of it might be, you know, maybe
Speaker 3: they think that they're the level of exposure because we
Speaker 3: are all talking about it, like they have done a
Speaker 3: fantastic job of getting us to talk about it, which
Speaker 3: is why I think the downside of suing is do
Speaker 3: you really want to stop people who are talking about this,
Speaker 3: or maybe they've already threatened. Maybe it hasn't gotten anywhere.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's because they've got other bigger fish to fry.
Speaker 3: I mean, the police have been involved in this particular site.
Speaker 2: Because I wonder what the what the grounds are there?
Speaker 2: Because we're not employees, we're contributors. That's the way it's positioned.
Speaker 2: So I feel like we don't actually have riots like
Speaker 2: you can't. I would probably say, yeah, if it was
Speaker 2: a traditional workplace, the way we were treated at times,
Speaker 2: probably it wouldn't fly in a normal like environment.
Speaker 3: Save you absolutely it wouldn't fly. You would absolutely be
Speaker 3: filing cases in relevan jurisdictions. It's insane, right, you can't
Speaker 3: treat people that way. You can't work them fourteen hours
Speaker 3: a day for minimum wage and then portray them in
Speaker 3: negative lights and tell them to do this and to
Speaker 3: tell them to do that. Like it's it's pretty insane, right,
Speaker 3: And the fact that the fact that they get away
Speaker 3: with it season after season is I think leading to
Speaker 3: it becoming slightly more extreme. If you watch it, to me,
Speaker 3: the show is getting more extreme every season, right, like
Speaker 3: things that fly now would never have flown five seasons ago.
Speaker 3: And I think it's dangerous, right, I really do. I
Speaker 3: mean it concerns me that there hasn't been more oversight
Speaker 3: over it, you know, if you have people acting in
Speaker 3: ways that are violent. I genuinely thought after that particular
Speaker 3: incident there would have been like, Okay, you're leaving the show.
Speaker 3: Australia has a domestic violence problem. This is completely unacceptable.
Speaker 3: You should be you know, taught some consequences for your actions,
Speaker 3: regardless of what your partner thinks about the particular situation.
Speaker 2: Act this week.
Speaker 3: Bye, yeah, that's what I thought, would you know, pop out?
Speaker 2: But in regards to Paul punching the wall, yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: this we did want to ask your opinion on this
Speaker 2: because it's it's interesting to see because yes, like you mentioned,
Speaker 2: like we're in a really dark time for DV in
Speaker 2: this country alone, and I think being able to see it,
Speaker 2: it could have been an opportunity to really talk about
Speaker 2: it and like to share resources, do a decent trigger warning,
Speaker 2: to really like educate on how no, the behavior is
Speaker 2: not okay and what if the wall isn't there next time?
Speaker 2: Or you know, and what actual services and stuff have
Speaker 2: they given him after Like they said, Okay.
Speaker 4: We're going to give you some resources, what are those?
Speaker 2: Maybe share that with the audience, because say someone is
Speaker 2: in a real life situation, like, hey, they've never done
Speaker 2: it before and this is the first time they've acted out,
Speaker 2: which my personal views on that is separate.
Speaker 4: What what do they do? Where do they go? Where
Speaker 4: are they help?
Speaker 2: What's the strategy? Then I feel like that wasn't shown,
Speaker 2: and that could have been like, Okay, if we're going
Speaker 2: to keep him on, let's show Okay, if this happens
Speaker 2: in your relationship, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I feel like you don't stay personally.
Speaker 3: I think you don't know. You don't because it escalates
Speaker 3: and you die.
Speaker 2: It's not serious.
Speaker 3: It's very serious. Okay. Was she speaking to him in
Speaker 3: a disrespectful manner? Maybe? Does that give you the right
Speaker 3: to take hands on someone? No, it's pretty clear card.
Speaker 3: These are binary things, right, And I think what I
Speaker 3: think a lot is that that is underestimated is young
Speaker 3: people are watching this and they're starting to see, oh, well,
Speaker 3: it's okay. If he punches the wall and then says
Speaker 3: sorry to me, that's okay, then Yeah, that's all right,
Speaker 3: He's sorry, right, And what I've seen is the whole
Speaker 3: spectrum of domestic violence on this episode, on this season. Sorry,
Speaker 3: you've got physical, proper domestic violence, You've got coercive control
Speaker 3: on the other side, basically on camera coercive control. Don't
Speaker 3: you dare tell them about how I You've got experts like,
Speaker 3: I mean this, why is it not being called a Seriously,
Speaker 3: why is there not like the registered board coming and saying, sir,
Speaker 3: You're witnessing on camera someone coercively controlling a young woman.
Speaker 3: She's terrified. Why are you making her say things she
Speaker 3: likes about him? This is not healthy or normal.
Speaker 2: That didn't make sense to me, And I was like,
Speaker 2: what is the thought process behind her then saying what
Speaker 2: she likes to then catch her out being like she
Speaker 2: doesn't like him or she wants to say Like I
Speaker 2: didn't understand where that was going.
Speaker 4: And I was just like, and then it just ended.
Speaker 3: I was naive. I thought this was a great opportunity
Speaker 3: to show that there isn't anything you like about him.
Speaker 3: You should leave this. Really, this is a great exercise
Speaker 3: for people. Instead, it completely created the opposite sort of experience,
Speaker 3: and like, if these experts don't have DV training. You
Speaker 3: need experts to do because I'm telling you for me.
Speaker 3: You know, I have younger siblings. I don't want them
Speaker 3: to watch that and think this is an acceptable way
Speaker 3: to treat your partner. You cannot punch walls because you're upset.
Speaker 3: That's what a four year old does, not a grown
Speaker 3: adult television and if that's how he behaves when television
Speaker 3: cameras are on, respectfully, I have genuine concerns about what
Speaker 3: happens when there's when there's no oversight. And secondly, you
Speaker 3: don't speak to your partner that way. You don't gaslight
Speaker 3: them in the way that that's happening. It's proper coercive control.
Speaker 3: There's legislation design.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is like new stuff that's been implemented.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because going back to Paul, we obviously
Speaker 2: saw it was his turn to share his experience and
Speaker 2: like write a letter about how he feels about Karina,
Speaker 2: and for him to say she's a jealous person, she's judgmentary,
Speaker 2: gives me the ick.
Speaker 4: And then all this stuff. I was like, jealous person,
Speaker 4: But did you not punch your wall because you were.
Speaker 2: Jealous that she slept sleeping with a wrapper, and then
Speaker 2: you're gonna have the ike about her being upset you
Speaker 2: staying with a woman for three nights.
Speaker 4: It was so like typical.
Speaker 2: Anyone that's been in situations of similar dynamics can recognize
Speaker 2: his behavior. And I think it's really hard and from
Speaker 2: my experience, until I was in it, you never realize
Speaker 2: and until you're exposed to it, you will never know.
Speaker 4: What it's like.
Speaker 2: We're having opportunity now to be exposed to it. We
Speaker 2: need to then explain, hey, red flag, red flag, this
Speaker 2: is really bad, because yeah, you don't You sometimes don't
Speaker 2: know until you're in it, right, And I just think
Speaker 2: there's not many other ways to have these conversations like
Speaker 2: Maths is doing, and they just haven't really they missed
Speaker 2: the mark on how it's presented, I think, and just.
Speaker 1: Like allowing him to stay and continue for the whole experiment,
Speaker 1: it's just setting the tone that that behavior is okay.
Speaker 1: So people are going to watch that and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's all right to punch your wall.
Speaker 4: Well exactly.
Speaker 2: And in addition to that, we've seen Adrian the DV charges,
Speaker 2: which I believe have been dropped. I'm not sure what
Speaker 2: exactly those were and what the terms are around that.
Speaker 2: I personally don't know if we should be platforming people
Speaker 2: that have even just an allegation.
Speaker 4: When you're doing the application process.
Speaker 2: You have a police check, you do psychological of ours.
Speaker 2: This is definitely something they would have been aware of
Speaker 2: if they did a simple police check. Right, Whether that
Speaker 2: was done or whether it was ignored, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: But what's your thoughts on I guess the mainstream media
Speaker 2: being able to platform.
Speaker 3: It's very tough, right, It's really tough because you know,
Speaker 3: they're false. Allegations happen. They're rare, but they happen. They're
Speaker 3: about two to five percent basically. So do you want
Speaker 3: to destroy someone's opportunities because a false allegation or an
Speaker 3: incorrect allegation is made. Probably not, But do you? I mean,
Speaker 3: I guess, is it possible to have someone who has
Speaker 3: no allegations and no backstory whatsoever? Yes? It is, And
Speaker 3: I think that's the kind of people that you want
Speaker 3: to promote.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, So to me, I understood the charges were dropped.
Speaker 3: I understood the matter has gone away. He's entitled to
Speaker 3: his presumption amnisions. He should be allowed to go on
Speaker 3: with his life. But I think that what I have
Speaker 3: seen portrayed with my own eyes barring. I mean, we
Speaker 3: all know editing can make for sure custard out of
Speaker 3: you know, anything. But what I've seen is some pretty
Speaker 3: concerning dynamics. And what I'm shocked at is the complete
Speaker 3: lack of dialogue around those dynamics and the complete lack
Speaker 3: of psychosocial education around this particular stuff. Because if you
Speaker 3: allow this, I'm telling you it's only inevita. It's a
Speaker 3: matter of time until someone gets hurt, right, And it's
Speaker 3: it's not a game, it's not entertainment. You can't you know,
Speaker 3: you can't be having these things play out in this
Speaker 3: horrific way and not say anything or do anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard because I think like a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff we've discussed a very important conversations to be
Speaker 2: had in this stuff that's very real in like the
Speaker 2: world we live in or just reality TV. But I
Speaker 2: think there's like a disjoint with how that's being communicated
Speaker 2: in such a like a mainstream like this is primetime
Speaker 2: TV slot, right, so like you've got families watching this,
Speaker 2: how are they explaining stuff to kids? Or like how
Speaker 2: how is that I don't know, there's not it would
Speaker 2: be it would have been.
Speaker 4: I would have loved to.
Speaker 2: See a great opportunity to like educate on the space
Speaker 2: or like bring people in to like workshop.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know what I expect from them.
Speaker 4: I don't really expect something.
Speaker 3: It's something, right, Like, I don't expect this complete void.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, there's an argument, you know, the David
Speaker 3: att Atborough approach. You know, you you see a tiger
Speaker 3: chasing a rabbit and you don't interfere that. I don't
Speaker 3: think flies when it's a primetime slot about something as
Speaker 3: important as, you know, the relationship between two people. And
Speaker 3: so I think you need to have a discussion to
Speaker 3: tell people this is not normal or healthy or appropriate. Right,
Speaker 3: and if I understand it correctly, Paul got like he
Speaker 3: does a counseling session once on Saturday every Saturday. Like, okay, well, sure,
Speaker 3: what has he learned in those sessions? What is about?
Speaker 3: Let's share that? Right, Let's share that, you know, because look,
Speaker 3: I can understand people losing their call. You don't want
Speaker 3: to destroy someone because they've had a moment of madness.
Speaker 3: But also, right, you don't punch a wall like, I mean,
Speaker 3: I love how we keep just like acting like this
Speaker 3: is a normal behavior. It's not right. And if the
Speaker 3: mainstream Australia starts to think that that's okay, you're going
Speaker 3: to have a spike in domestic violence and it's just
Speaker 3: what happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely true, because it escalates every season. Like season
Speaker 1: six we saw Martha throw wine at Cyreen. Then my
Speaker 1: season on season nine, we saw Dominica smash a wine
Speaker 1: glass in front of the whole group and then that
Speaker 1: was deemed okay, and everyone's like.
Speaker 4: Yay, slay queen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's crazy, and now this guy is punching
Speaker 1: a hole and a lot of things and things happened.
Speaker 1: Nothing's happened.
Speaker 3: What is what five seasons from now? Yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 3: It just didn't break the leg. It just injured it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. You know
Speaker 3: they were only in a coma for five months. You know,
Speaker 3: it's it's what you would walk past, is what you accept, right,
Speaker 3: And I think that the fact that there hasn't been
Speaker 3: bigger pushback is concerning.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: I think I do feel though this year, I think
Speaker 2: I just feel something brewing. I feel that there's going
Speaker 2: to be more change or I don't know. I just
Speaker 2: feel like it's starting the conversation a bit more and
Speaker 2: it might trigger things to happen.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm hopeful of it, but it's yeah, it's interesting to see.
Speaker 2: What has transpired off the back of like topics from
Speaker 2: this season. Yeah, very fascinating. And I'm just curious your client.
Speaker 2: Did he ever come back and say you're right?
Speaker 3: He did not, And I did bring it up because
Speaker 3: I felt that. I also feel like, yeah, you just yeah,
Speaker 3: that's he's gone.
Speaker 1: Through enough, but you're still friends.
Speaker 3: Not really, No, I think I think that I think
Speaker 3: that he I was shocked at how much it fundamentally
Speaker 3: changed his personality being publicly shamed in such a wide way,
Speaker 3: And I think the poor guy probably got PTSD or
Speaker 3: something out of it. It seemed like and I can understand,
Speaker 3: I mean, I can understand that happening to people. I
Speaker 3: think that we all look at these things as this
Speaker 3: like harmless bit of entertainment, but at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, there is someone whose life has changed in
Speaker 3: a way. You know, you guys would get a better
Speaker 3: far better than I would. But just it's not it's
Speaker 3: not meant to be a blood sport. It's meant to be,
Speaker 3: you know, it's meant to be an opportunity to find
Speaker 3: the love of your life, you know, make some friends
Speaker 3: and you know, hey, I thought I liked the beach
Speaker 3: type and like a mountain type. Who it's meant to
Speaker 3: be some goofy not like, Hey, I didn't you know
Speaker 3: I have to live with the domestic violence abuse or
Speaker 3: like it's to be like that.
Speaker 4: No, totally.
Speaker 2: And do you think like given like the duty of
Speaker 2: care when it comes to production and with like with this,
Speaker 2: do you think there's I think, because we've spoken about
Speaker 2: people taking it too far of maybe ending their life
Speaker 2: based on their experience, whether it's on the show or
Speaker 2: the aftermath of it, do you think that the production
Speaker 2: or the network could be liable for that.
Speaker 3: All the rules and regulations are quite different here. I
Speaker 3: know in the UK, I think we were discussing this
Speaker 3: off are They've got some tighter regulations around that sort
Speaker 3: of thing. But I mean, what people have to understand
Speaker 3: about the law is it's always inherently it's always inherently reactive.
Speaker 3: So I always say this when I was in law school,
Speaker 3: and that wasn't that long ago. I like, you know,
Speaker 3: the fourteen fifteen years ago, same sex marriage was not legal.
Speaker 3: Cryptocurrency was not a thing. Now in my current practice,
Speaker 3: the argument is which one of the husbands keeps the
Speaker 3: cryptocurrency wallet? Right, I couldn't have learnt how to deal
Speaker 3: with that when I was in law school. It wasn't
Speaker 3: a thing. Yeah, And so there's always going to be
Speaker 3: a step behind as we catch up with the law.
Speaker 3: So does someone need to pass for that to be
Speaker 3: the case? Hopefully not. I'm hopeful that this particular season
Speaker 3: people have gone, yeah, look, we really push things a
Speaker 3: bit too far. We better calm down and better, you know,
Speaker 3: we better retool, or at the very least, we better
Speaker 3: get a couple of actual DV experts on the path.
Speaker 3: And if they do have those experts, maybe they're not
Speaker 3: listening to them, or maybe they're not. I don't know.
Speaker 2: And I think it's hard because I also think the
Speaker 2: experts play their own role as.
Speaker 4: Actor is not the right way.
Speaker 2: They are being a character that is supplementing the whole thing. Right,
Speaker 2: So I don't really hold things against them because I'm
Speaker 2: sure they have their own how they feel ethically about stuff,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that the actual the specialization that they
Speaker 2: do privately with their private clients is completely different.
Speaker 4: Than what they are receiving.
Speaker 1: Basically, like glorified hosts, there's a flip to that.
Speaker 3: You are a professional, You've taken oaths, you've made standards,
Speaker 3: you hold certain licenses and representations. Right, So for me,
Speaker 3: I can't mislead the court. It's something I can't do,
Speaker 3: even if it's in a like showy context, I can't
Speaker 3: do that. I've made an ethical determination that I'm going
Speaker 3: to discharge my duties in a certain way. If you're
Speaker 3: a glorified host, right, we wouldn't held nick Liche to
Speaker 3: the same Okay, okay, so you just it's just a
Speaker 3: different sort of thing. But if you are, if you
Speaker 3: have those expertises right, people are gonna people will expect
Speaker 3: you to do something about it. And if you're not right,
Speaker 3: maybe behind the scenes they're raising whatever alarms they need
Speaker 3: to raise. But I mean, if you're a host and
Speaker 3: you get the benefits of being a host, unfortunately, you
Speaker 3: gotta have the responsibilities of being the hosts for sure.
Speaker 1: That's sure. The scary thing is not even them talking.
Speaker 1: I don't think the audience, no wear ear piece.
Speaker 2: And you can hear you can hear jarring because I
Speaker 2: literal you'd sit there and like probably the same distance
Speaker 2: we are now and you can hear it.
Speaker 4: You can literally hear what's being said in the earpiece.
Speaker 4: And then you're like and it's just like just looking
Speaker 4: at each other dead pants, and it's just like sorry,
Speaker 4: it's so, just.
Speaker 3: Give me a murder trial any day versus this. It's hard.
Speaker 2: So if people were to go tell us about your
Speaker 2: firm and what I guess services you offer any people
Speaker 2: to go to for?
Speaker 4: Yeah, what are some of the some of the things
Speaker 4: people could go to.
Speaker 3: We're a full service law firm. My firm's called Executive
Speaker 3: Law Group. We have an office here in Sydney. You
Speaker 3: can find us all over the internet or reach out
Speaker 3: to me via TikTok or any of my other channels.
Speaker 3: We do everything from him with disputes specialists, so we
Speaker 3: do employment disputes, family law, crime, commercial disputes, what have you.
Speaker 3: We have an influencer practice where we help a lot
Speaker 3: of influencers who are dealing with things like not getting paid,
Speaker 3: making sure they understand their obligations and their rights, making
Speaker 3: sure that any sort of agreement is made, that's fair
Speaker 3: to We do a fair bit of that sort of
Speaker 3: stuff and it's a really exciting space. I love it.
Speaker 3: I love working with influencers. It's it's it keeps me young.
Speaker 3: Love that like to question, what does it mean girls?
Speaker 3: You girls keep you young?
Speaker 2: Well, it's literally, like you said before, like thirteen years ago,
Speaker 2: influencer wasn't even a word that existence. So I think
Speaker 2: it's like, I love that you're evolving with the times
Speaker 2: here and like taking the career seriously because there is
Speaker 2: these like what's the regulations? You know, we never get
Speaker 2: paid on time, like all these things which I think
Speaker 2: lack that structure, And I feel like it's great to
Speaker 2: have a resource week. You'd be like, yeah, actually, these
Speaker 2: are your rights.
Speaker 4: It's like any typical job you would do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you shouldn't have to wait in never sixty days
Speaker 2: because people don't feel like paying you.
Speaker 4: So I love. I love that you're doing that as well.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's staggering how many influencers get taken for a ride,
Speaker 3: like you know, I I you know, from the outside,
Speaker 3: when you look at the world of an influencer, you think,
Speaker 3: what a cushy job? Right, Oh my god, they just
Speaker 3: go and eat like a burger and they get paid
Speaker 3: a fortune. If you are hustling hard as an influencer,
Speaker 3: it is hard. Like there are people who take a
Speaker 3: lot of liberties, and so it's actually been really nice
Speaker 3: to support people who are just like trying to, you know,
Speaker 3: do their thing and try to learn a little bit.
Speaker 3: It's it's been a really positive experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I love love that. And tell us about
Speaker 4: your book.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, thank you for remembering I've forgotten. My
Speaker 3: book's called Talk You Out of Trouble. It's coming out
Speaker 3: April twenty ninth. It's by Pan McMillan Publishers. You can
Speaker 3: find it in any good bookstore or order it online
Speaker 3: or pre order it to get copies. There is an
Speaker 3: audiobook I narrated. Yeah, okay, love that and it went.
Speaker 3: And let me tell you, narrating an audiobook is so
Speaker 3: much harder than people tell you. You've got to get
Speaker 3: every word right and if you get it, John, I'm
Speaker 3: sorry you just you sounded a bit off there. Can
Speaker 3: we just get the last sentence again? So it was
Speaker 3: it's a mission. But yes, I've narrated it amazing. It's
Speaker 3: coming out April twenty nine, So in any good bookstore.
Speaker 3: Great gift for loved ones and family. And if you
Speaker 3: like my content, it's kind of the stories and the
Speaker 3: way that I became a lawyer, what I've learned being
Speaker 3: a lawyer, and how you can implement that in your
Speaker 3: own life.
Speaker 4: Love that I will same absolutely.
Speaker 1: Finally, ending up with one last question, let's just say,
Speaker 1: if these crazy contracts weren't a thing, what reality TV
Speaker 1: show would you go on?
Speaker 3: What a tough one.
Speaker 1: I'm saying, like Survivor.
Speaker 4: Oh brother, look, Apprentice.
Speaker 3: You have to understand The Apprentice would be a good one.
Speaker 3: Check out The Apprentice. The Apprentice. Yeah, my wife has
Speaker 3: always said she wanted to go on Survivor. That's been
Speaker 3: her big dream. So you know, use your energy, Internet
Speaker 3: and make that happen for her. But I think Apprentice
Speaker 3: would be great. I think it'd be a lot of fun.
Speaker 3: You go out there, you'd know all you hustle, you know,
Speaker 3: get fired, You're fired. I thought it was self employed.
Speaker 4: I would be able to deal with that cry probably literally.
Speaker 1: Oh thank you so much for coming on. I've learnt
Speaker 1: so much. I feel like I've been in class, but
Speaker 1: in a good class, like a.
Speaker 3: Nice discussion for both of you, A plus pluses. Thank you,
Speaker 3: thank you about having it's but it's a light. Thank
Speaker 3: you reality
Speaker 2: M HM.