1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person has never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 1: I spoke to a guest I've been hoping to get 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: on the podcast for years. Amanda Knox has experienced things 16 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: in her life that are hard to comprehend. As a 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: twenty year old American student living in Italy, she gained 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: international attention when she was charged and convicted of involvement 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: in the murder of her friend, Meredith Kercher. This was 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: a crime she did not commit. The media attention was unprecedented. 21 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: Her reputation was destroyed. She spent four years in an 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: Italian prison and another four years fighting to clear her name. 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: We spoke about what happened, the impact it had on her, 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: and how she came to terms with the injustice that 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: destroyed her life. When you hear what Amanda has to 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: say about her experiences, you'll be shocked and angered. I 27 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: enjoyed the chat and found it quite inspiring. It also 28 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: opened my mind up to the fact the one thing 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: we can control in life is how we process the 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: things that happened to us. Have a listen, Amanda Knox, 31 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers. 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: Nice to meet you. I'm glad you catch them. 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: Well, just on the name, I want to put that 34 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: out for first up, if ever there was an inappropriate 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: name for a podcast speaking to a guest like yourself, 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: Catch Killers, So I do apologize up front. That is 37 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: reference to the fact that I was a homicide detective 38 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: for over twenty years. So even that's probably a red 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: flag for you. 40 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: And no, I wouldn't say so. No, I don't like 41 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: I think people assume that I have a thing against 42 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: law enforcement, and it's like, no, I don't have a 43 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: thing against law enforcement. Law enforcement is a very important 44 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: thing to do. Someone broke into my home and raped 45 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: and murdered my roommate, and I, you know, law enforcement 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 2: had a very important job to do that you know, 47 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: unfortunately they didn't do well. But that doesn't mean that 48 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: other people can't do the job well. Yeah. 49 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: Well, if my experience having been involved in law enforcement 50 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: and all other sides, there is good, bad, indifferent in 51 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: that field. But I'm glad you've got that attitude. But yeah, 52 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: when we're reaching out to get you on the podcast, 53 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: isn't I catch killers form a homicide detective? That might 54 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: be a hard no. 55 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 2: Thanks't I try to give everyone a fair hearing, fair core. 56 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: Now, look first up and in looking at your story 57 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: and understanding your story, and I followed it for a 58 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: long time, so I've got an in depth understanding of it. 59 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: But something that comes across and I think it's important 60 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: that you've always been at pains to pay tribute to 61 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: the fact that you lost your friend Meredith Kirscher. And 62 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: quite often in these situations, high profile investigations, that gets 63 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: lost in the telling is that something that you're very 64 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: mindful of that someone your friend, a girl, had her 65 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: life tragically taken, and sometimes that gets lost in all 66 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: the noise surrounding the investigation. 67 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really it's a terrible unfortunate reality when it 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: comes to any kind of especially high profile cases. But 69 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: I think even in any case, I think that sometimes 70 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: there is much made of the sensationalism around what happened 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: and around the person that we are accusing, be they 72 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: guilty or innocent, and the personality like I've seen this 73 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: time and time again, where the just getting down to 74 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: the bare bones of what happened and how did this 75 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 2: person become a victim gets lost around the whole story 76 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 2: and the scandal that erupts, around the circumstances that arise 77 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: in the aftermath. And it's something that is deeply it 78 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: has always been deeply troubling to me, because you know, 79 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 2: from the minute that I came home and found my 80 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: home a crime scene, like I went to law enforcement. 81 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: I had my boyfriend call them because I didn't even 82 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 2: know how to call them in Italy looking for help, 83 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: and I wanted to know just as much as everyone 84 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: else what had happened and how this could have happened, 85 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: and if there was a serial killer on the loose, 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 2: like I had no idea, but I wanted whoever had 87 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: done this horrific thing to be held accountable. And I 88 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: wanted this beautiful person that I had known to have 89 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: some kind of justice, even if everything had already been 90 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: stolen from her. And I think one thing that I 91 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: grapple with as someone who has come to be the 92 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: name and face associated with my friend's death and with 93 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 2: some other person's crime, is that is a cruel and 94 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: unfair reality that I am faced with, Like I bear 95 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: the infamy of my friend's death and some other man's 96 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: criminal actions, and for me, it's just violence against women 97 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: upon violence against women, and I see them. I feel 98 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: like today, I feel like Meredith and I are like 99 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin. I'm just the sade 100 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: that got lucky and lived. But there are many examples 101 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: of this case, especially of violence against women, and one 102 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 2: of them is the fact that the truth of what 103 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: happened to my friend got completely forgotten in the midst 104 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: of all the scandal. 105 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: I fully understand what you're saying, and I think people 106 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: that haven't experienced what you have experienced are understanding the 107 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: world of homicide. The ripple effect from one person's death. 108 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: There is so many people's lives that have been impacted upon, 109 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: and certainly yours, Raphael, your friend or boyfriend at the 110 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: time that was also charged, Patrick, your employee, Meredith's family. 111 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: There is no closure when you lose a loved one. 112 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: That can get some comfort if the person responsible is found, 113 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: but there's no closure. So yeah, I and yeah, you're 114 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: working in the media now. I worked in law enforcement, 115 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: now in the media, and I'm always I'm trying to 116 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: make get that message across in the media that we 117 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: shouldn't lose sight of what happens when someone's life has 118 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: been taken, and all the bells and whistles, all the 119 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: things that can make the story interesting, sometimes the victim 120 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: has forgotten and the impact that that has. So I 121 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: just wanted to put that up first up because coming 122 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: into the podcast world true crime, coming from a homicide 123 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: to take this point of view, I didn't want the 124 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: pain and the damage that he's done lost in telling 125 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: telling stories. So it's I'm glad we could put that 126 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: up front. 127 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: I'm glad that you're mindful about that, because not I 128 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: think everyone sort of forgets that with true crime stories. 129 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: These are the worst experiences of real people's lives, and 130 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: it's I think it's really easy to forget that when 131 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: we get so titillated by all of the details. And yeah, 132 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: so I appreciate I think the fact that you have 133 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: a history of investigating these crimes and being so intimately 134 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: close to them informs that perspective for you. So I 135 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: appreciate that. 136 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: The other thing about in preparing for the podcast, like, 137 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: I've had hundreds of people on the podcast over the 138 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: years and with some amazing stories, international reputations and all 139 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: sorts of things, but I've never gone down a rabbit 140 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: hole as much as I have. Looking at what's been 141 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: written about you, I say this that, what's that experience? 142 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: Like that, I have not seen someone scrutinized as much 143 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: as you like I've just been blown away normally, Okay, 144 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: I might have a book to read or a documentary 145 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: to watch, or some media reports, but it's unbelievable how 146 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: much coverage has been of this case, and in particular 147 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: focusing on you, very unkindly too in some aspects. 148 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, if you go down the YouTube rabbit hole, 149 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: you'll find supposed expert upon expert upon expert who thinks 150 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: they know what they're talking about and can like divine, 151 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: almost divinely what the truth is based upon, you know, 152 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: scrutinizing a five second video clip that they saw. Yeah, 153 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: it's I mean, before all this happened to me, I 154 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 2: was an anonymous college student who had zero aspirations of 155 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: becoming a public figure, much less a public figure in 156 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: the world of true crime. Like I was studying to 157 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: become a translator. I really love to travel. Like when 158 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: I was thinking about what I wanted for my life, 159 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: I imagined being a translator and traveling the world and 160 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 2: maybe working for the UN you know, like who knows. 161 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: But I certainly was not ever, ever aspiring to have 162 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: such a white hot, searing spotlight shined upon me and 163 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: the most intimate details of my life for decades, you know. 164 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: And I've had to live with that reality for my 165 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: entire adult life. Now. I've attempted to accept it and 166 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: do the best that I can with it. But it's 167 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: certainly not easy knowing that there is a false idea 168 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 2: of me in so many people's imaginations before they ever 169 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: encounter me, and that false idea of me is going 170 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: to inform how they view anything that I do. In 171 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: my life and how even how they interact with me. 172 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, confirmation bias. If you already have 173 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: an idea of who a person is, that's going to 174 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: color the way that you view reality around that person. 175 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: And I like, it doesn't escape me that I represent something. 176 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: The idea of me represents something in people's minds, be 177 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: it evil, be it something weird and sexual, Like it's bizarre, 178 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: especially because this happened when I was so young, Like 179 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: I think people forget how young I was. I was 180 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 2: only twenty years old when this happened. I did not 181 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: have a ton of life experience. I didn't have the 182 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: maturity to grapple with how much scrutiny I was going 183 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: to face. And it's been a long time living again 184 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: bearing the infamy of somebody else's crimes. Like if you 185 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 2: were to ask just any random person who actually killed 186 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: my roommate, would they be even able to say his name? 187 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: Like that bothers me. But I think that accepting that 188 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: reality means that I'm allowing myself to be to learn 189 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: from it and to be informed from it, and to 190 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 2: be driven by it to try to like fix it, 191 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? 192 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: I do know what you mean. I think it's been 193 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: an extraordinary journey. And the fact that you're twenty it's 194 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: probably also adds to the situation that at twenty you 195 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: don't know anything, but you think you know things. 196 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like to joke that, like your twenty is 197 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: that age where you think you know everything because you 198 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: just learned what the word kafka ass means. 199 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: It's like, so that's you know, that's a dangerous combination 200 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: thinking you know and you know nothing, but the other 201 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: thing with it, And I think this gets lost in 202 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: the story too. If this just happened to you where 203 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: you've got a friend and you only had known her 204 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: a short time, but there was a strong bond as 205 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: you get as you're traveling as young adults, that was 206 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: your flatmate that was murdered. I've seen people that have 207 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: been traumatized for the rest of their lives by that 208 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: one experience where they weren't accused of it, it's just 209 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: they hung on and hang on to the thought that 210 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: could have been me. I've lost a friend, all the emotion, 211 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: all the dramas that come along along with that. So 212 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: just on that aspect, Yeah, it's true madic experience for you. 213 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I mean, I appreciate that. Not 214 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: a lot of people acknowledge that, and yeah, like it 215 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: haunts me to this day. 216 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: Well, of course it should haunt you. Not many people, 217 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: not many people experience it. And then the way you 218 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: are treated, and I'll break it down will give a 219 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: little bit more detail. But I just want to say 220 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: up front the way and in my observation and just 221 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: talking to you to now, but also all the times 222 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: that I've seen you interview and read your books, that 223 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: you've walked away without being broken, without being bitter. You 224 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: really are the postwoman for resilience and tenacity to get 225 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: through it. You still have a smile on me. 226 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I wasn't broken. I feel like I've 227 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: been broken a few times on the way I've just 228 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 2: had to mend. 229 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: Well, no congratulations on that. But let's find out a 230 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: little bit about you before you went to Italy. Describe 231 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: the type of person, type of person you were. 232 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, like I said, I was a twenty year 233 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: old college student. I was in college in the same 234 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: city where I grew up because I really love to 235 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: be close to my family. I have a big extended family, 236 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: not quite as crazy as my big fat Greek wedding, 237 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 2: but a little bit up there, like we're all in 238 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: each other's business. I have lots of cousins. I just 239 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: grew up in a big, sort of communal family type scenario. 240 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: And also that was informed by the fact that, like 241 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: my family's, my mom was born in Germany. And so 242 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: I'm not like your typical all American girl because I 243 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: have those sort of European roots. Yeah, and so I 244 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: grew up really curious about the wider world. I studied 245 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: Japanese in high school. I studied abroad for the first 246 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: time in high school. By going to Japan was one 247 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: of the best experiences of my life. And I so 248 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: I just got the travel bug. I was deeply interested 249 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: in other cultures and other languages, and so when I 250 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: went to college, that's what I wanted to study. I 251 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: also was a big reader, and I love to, you know, 252 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: dress up in costume and play pretend. To this day, 253 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: I go to like ren fairs. My my brother in 254 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: law is a ren fair performer, and so I'm like 255 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 2: his biggest fan. And and yeah, so I don't know. 256 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I I played sports, I did well in school. 257 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: I didn't really ever have anything super challenging happened to 258 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: me or traumatic, Like I feel like I just had 259 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: a really stable and loving environment and I you know, 260 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: I had the classic like puberty struggles, struggles, but like nothing, 261 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say anything traumatic had ever happened to me. 262 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: And so going to Italy, I had every reason to 263 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: feel like I was about to have the time of 264 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: my life. And in a way, I was like leading 265 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: up to the tragedy that happened, Like I was having 266 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: a great time. I was made friends, I was you know, 267 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 2: I got a little part time job. I was doing 268 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 2: good in school, and I was you know, I met 269 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: a very lovely Italian guy who just swept me off 270 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 2: my feet and treated me like a princess. And so, 271 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: I mean everything was going great and I was a 272 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: very happy person. 273 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: And that comes across certainly in what I've read about 274 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: you that particular time in life. That's about as exciting 275 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: as life can get. The you know, the foreign studying overseas, the. 276 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, the did you study Abrauh yeah. 277 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: Well I spent a lot of time overseas, so I 278 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: know exactly what you're what you're talking about. 279 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: Like when when you were like twenty and young, because 280 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: there's something special about being twenty and young and unattached 281 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: and your whole life's ahead of you. You know. 282 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: Before before I joined the police, I went to on 283 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: a surfing trip, so probably wasn't studying. I was more 284 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: studying myself. But to Sri Lanka, of all places where 285 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: surfing wasn't very very big at that that particular point 286 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: in time, I'd already signed up to join the police, 287 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: so I had to come back. But I think if 288 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: I hadn't signed up to join the police, I could 289 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: have been lost on the beach in Sri Lanka, steaming 290 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: on my head, champing. But now they are, they're they're great, 291 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: great experiences, and I could see the joy. And then 292 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: you had your your roommates. You had Meredith, who was 293 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: She was from the UK and she sounded like she 294 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: had the same outlook on life as you did, in 295 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: the excitement of living abroad. 296 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. So she was a year older than me, and 297 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: she had worked really hard to get to Perusia. She 298 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 2: was more fluent in Italian than me, so she was 299 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 2: actually taking classes in Italian, whereas I was taking classes 300 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 2: to learn Italian. And she, I mean, she was doing 301 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: so great as well as she had this really close 302 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: group of friends people also from the UK, who she 303 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 2: would go out and hang out with, but also she 304 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: would go out with us roommates. You know, we lived 305 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: with two other Italian girls who were slightly older than 306 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 2: us and so who could kind of guide us and 307 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: be more of like host figures. Like they showed us 308 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: great restaurants and took us out dancing. And so it 309 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: was me and her were the young foreigners in the household, 310 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 2: and we were under the wing of these two older, 311 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 2: more sophisticated Italian girls who lived with us, and it 312 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: was a lot of fun. 313 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: You've you're there, at my understanding, for about five weeks 314 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: before before Meridith's murder happened. You'd met Raphael the week before, 315 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: had known him for a short time, blossoming romance, and 316 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: then things went bad from there. Tell us what happened, 317 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: just an abbreviated version, because I think a lot of 318 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: people understand what took place, but if you could give 319 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: it from your perspective, how you came home. 320 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, so it was a holiday weekend. It was 321 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: technically not the weekend yet, but it was a holiday. 322 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 2: It was the day after Halloween, there was no school, 323 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 2: and raphae La and I had spent the night together 324 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: at his place, and we had this grand romantic vision 325 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: of going off to this town nearby called Goobio, which 326 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 2: was famous for its truffles. He as well, again treating 327 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 2: me like a princess, sweeping me off my feet, wanted 328 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 2: to show me all of the everything beautiful that Italy 329 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 2: had to offer, and so he had this grand romantic plan, 330 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: and I wanted to go home and frankly like get 331 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 2: changed into something pretty, because I was, you know, in 332 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 2: this beautiful romantic love story basically, And so I went home, 333 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: and my intention was simply to get take a quick shower, 334 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 2: get dressed into a cute, you know, outfit, and then 335 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 2: go back so that I could go off with Raphaela. 336 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: But when I came home, I discovered that there was 337 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 2: something amiss, and it wasn't immediately clear to me what 338 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: was wrong there was, but things were off right, Like 339 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 2: my front door was open, there was a few speckles 340 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: of blood in my bathroom, but nothing that immediately alarmed 341 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: me to the actual horribleness that had happened. The one 342 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: thing that alarmed me immediately, and that gave me sort 343 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: of a shiver down my spine was when I found 344 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: feces in the bathroom that my Italian roommates had. So 345 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: there were two bathrooms and I Meredith used one and 346 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: Philamina and Lauder used another, and I only went into 347 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 2: their bathroom to use their hair dryer. But when I 348 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: was in there, I noticed that there was feces in 349 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: the in the toilet and that immediately gave me the 350 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: creeps because I felt like my roommates wouldn't have left 351 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 2: the toilet on, and that made me feel like somebody. 352 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 2: I was afraid all of a sudden that somebody was 353 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: in the house with me, and so I left and 354 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 2: I went back to Rafaela's and I was like, oh 355 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: my god, I don't know what to think. There was 356 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: weird stuff in my house. But he was like, well, 357 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: I don't know what that is, but you should just 358 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: call your roommates and see what's going on. And so 359 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: I start calling my roommates. I can only get a 360 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: hold of one of them, Philomena. Both Lauda and Meredith 361 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: are not answering their phones. And I tell Philomena what happened, 362 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: and she says, oh my gosh, Okay, well, let's go 363 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: home and we'll check it all out together. So I 364 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 2: go back with Raphael and we start poking around and 365 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: looking more seriously at what's going on. I was just 366 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 2: sort of in and out that first time, take a shower, 367 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 2: get changed leave. As we're poking around, we discover that 368 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: there's a broken window, so someone has definitely broken into 369 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 2: our house. And immediately I asked Rafaele to call the 370 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: police because our house has been broken into, And meanwhile 371 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: I'm calling Philamena telling her what's going on, and we're 372 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: continuing to look around the house to see if there's 373 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: anything missing, if anything's stolen. We go into Lauda's room, 374 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: everything is perfect, nothing has been touched, her bed is 375 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: still made, and then we go to Meredith's room and 376 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: her door is locked, which is weird because the only 377 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: times I've ever seen her lock her door was when 378 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: she was inside, and she's not answering when I bang 379 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: on the door, and I asked RAFAELI to try to 380 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: kick in the door. He tries to kick in the door, 381 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: doesn't succeed, and eventually we just go outside and decide 382 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,719 Speaker 2: to wait for Philamena and the cops to arrive. The 383 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: cops arrive first, but they are not the cops that 384 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: Rafaela called. They're different cops. They have found Meredith's cell 385 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 2: phones and they're, well, they don't know whose cell phones 386 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: they are at the time, they're saying, we found these 387 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: cell phones and they're registered to phil Amena. So there's 388 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: this whole like confusing atmosphere going on of what is 389 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: going on? Where's Meredith, where's Filmina, where's Lauda? Why are 390 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: Philamina's phones here? That doesn't make any sense. I just 391 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: talked to her on the phone. So we're all just 392 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 2: trying to make sense of this. And it's only once 393 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: Philamena arrives and starts talking to the police that she explains, well, 394 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 2: I gave the simcard to Meredith, so those are Meredith's phones, 395 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: and where is Meredith we need to figure out, Like, 396 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 2: and I tell her the door is locked to her bedroom. 397 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: She's like, what are you talking about? And then basically 398 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: she and her boyfriend finally kick in Meredith's door and 399 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: discover her body. And Meredith like I never thankfully saw 400 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: into her room. Like I eventually saw, you know, autopsy 401 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: photos and all of that, but like I never had 402 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: to see it personally myself. Yeah, what it was was 403 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 2: a very gruesome crime scene, right, Like Meredith had been 404 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 2: raped and stabbed to death by the person who had 405 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: broke into our house. And immediately everyone just starts yelling 406 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 2: or screaming in Italian. I'm the only person who's not 407 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: fluent who's trying to figure out what's going on. We're 408 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: all sort of pushed out of the house by the police, 409 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 2: and now my home is a crime scene, it's under investigation. 410 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: I'm no longer allowed onto the premises. I'm just sort 411 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: of standing there trying to take in what is happening. 412 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: I don't know what my roommate has seen in Meredith's room. 413 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 2: She's screaming something about blood and a foot and the closet, 414 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: and so I'm wondering if there is a bloody foot 415 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: in the closet. Like, I just don't know what's going on, 416 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: and it takes time and help from Raphael to piece 417 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: together what it was that was discovered, which is Meredith's 418 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: body in her room. 419 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: Man, the chaos that you just described, that's a situation 420 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm very for me with when you get called to 421 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: a homicide scene and all that. I think the confusion 422 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: and the chios worked against you from a crossecution point 423 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: of view, assumptions that were being made and things and 424 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: the way you described it. And I've looked at your 425 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: story from the homicide lens and thinking, Okay, I could 426 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: see how that could be interpreted. This could be but 427 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: it looks like it was just a series of things 428 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: that worked against you. And there was the cultural language 429 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: barriers that I think I think came into play, and 430 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: the expectation of how you reacted. I think there was 431 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,719 Speaker 1: a lot drawn from and this is correct me if 432 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, a lot drawn from how you're reacting to 433 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: the report of your friend being killed. Now, I see 434 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 1: that quite often in policing, in investigations where and what 435 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: I've learned over the extended period of time, everyone reacts 436 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: differently to situations. Sometimes we're showing no emotion. You think, oh, 437 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: they're being cold. And I think that was the situation 438 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: Frown that you You've described the scene and the chaos, 439 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: and you've learned that your friends being killed, so you 440 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: got the trauma there. Then when the police started investigating it, 441 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: my understanding is that you were in interrogation and the 442 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: difference between in interrogation or getting a witness statement. But 443 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: in essence, for five days, you spent fifty three hours 444 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 1: sitting sitting down with police. Do you want to tell 445 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: us sad experience from your perspective, because that would have 446 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: been very confusing, I would imagine. 447 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean all of that started like as 448 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 2: soon as they pushed its, like even before they pushed 449 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: us out of the house. Like I'm answering police questions 450 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 2: and attempting to respond to what they're asking, not fully again, 451 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: not fully fluent in the language. So am I understanding 452 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: their question correctly? Am I responding to their question correctly? 453 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 2: Is there's definite like language barrier that's playing a role. 454 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 2: And then, of course, you know, in the immediacy of 455 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: being told there's a body in there, like I go 456 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: into a state of like complete shock. I saw of 457 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 2: go dead possum where I'm just like, I mean there's 458 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 2: foot I mean you can see footage of this now 459 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: to this day you can go back and look, and 460 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 2: I'm sort of just like staring into space, like, oh 461 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: my god. Meanwhile, my roommate, who is Italian and who 462 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: actually saw Meredith's body, is like freaking out and crying hysterically, 463 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 2: and so people are noting, Oh, here's one roommate just 464 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 2: standing there and another one who's crying hysterically, and it's like, well, 465 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 2: there are cultural differences, there are language differences, there's age differences. 466 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 2: There's the fact that, like, I'm again, nothing bad it 467 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: ever happened to me in my life. And so I 468 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 2: went into a state of like almost immediate denial, like 469 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 2: this cannot be happening, This cannot be happening. And then 470 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 2: you know, eventually I'm dragged off to the police station 471 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: along with everyone else to answer questions, and I'm doing 472 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: this to the best of my ability in a foreign language, 473 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: and I'm telling them everything that I know, which is 474 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: nothing like I just came home and found my roommate dead, 475 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 2: and there's no rhyme or reason that I can think 476 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: of for this happening. They're asking me, you know, did 477 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: anyone have any you know, did anyone hate Meredith or 478 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: have anything against her? And I'm like, no, what are 479 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 2: you talking about? Like she was just a nice person. 480 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: We're just here to study abroad, Like who would even 481 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: know her long enough to hate her? Like this doesn't 482 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: make any sense. And I immediately am thinking that there 483 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 2: must be some kind of serial killer out there, maybe 484 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: who targeted the house. I'm when I finally get a 485 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: moment of like, I'm no longer i go through hours 486 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: of questioning with the police, and I'm finally released from 487 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: that just for a moment in the waiting room and 488 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: I call, you know, my parents. I call my family, 489 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: try to tell them what's going on. It's the middle 490 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 2: of the night for them, you know, like everyone's just scrambling. 491 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it's interesting that people again are focusing on 492 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: my behavior and saying that I was cold or not 493 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 2: crying enough, because you know, even looking back, it's not 494 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 2: like everyone was crying hysterically in the police station. There 495 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: were a lot of people who were also experiencing just 496 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 2: shock and just like going into a state of numbness 497 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 2: and then intermittently crying. Like I mean, I feel like 498 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: I honestly wasn't that much different than anyone else. Like 499 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 2: suddenly I would get a like a full I would 500 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: feel just kicked in the stomach with the reality of 501 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: what was happening, and I would cry, and then you know, 502 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: a few minutes later, I would just be exhausted and 503 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 2: depleted and just sort of sitting there like a zombie, 504 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: and my boyfriend's there doing his best to be the 505 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 2: knight and shining armor that he aspires to be, and 506 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 2: he's comforting me and letting me sit on his lap 507 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: and cuddling me and even telling me some jokes to 508 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: try to cheer me up. And you know that I 509 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 2: ended up being turned against me of people saying how 510 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: could he have told you jokes? And how could have 511 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: you have giggled at a time like this? And it's like, well, 512 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there for hours answering questions, trying to figure 513 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: out what's going on in this extremely brutal and overwhelming situation, 514 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: and somebody next to me was kind enough to try 515 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 2: to alleviate my suffering in some way, even in a 516 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: stupid way. 517 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: And that is how those little signals can be misinterpreted. 518 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: And you know, you're throwing confirmation bias on what the 519 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: police are looking for. And when they've come to the 520 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: belief that you had had some involvement, all those little 521 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: things that on their own could be just dismissed, as 522 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: you'll just explained, then become this lightning rod to okay, 523 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: this has happened. I saw her talking to a boyfriend. 524 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 1: How could she possibly talk to a boyfriend? But the 525 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: interrogation was oppressive. I was going to say impressive, but 526 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: that would be the wrong way. It was oppressive in 527 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: that the length of time you didn't get a solicitor 528 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: there to represent your rights. There's argument that the police 529 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: plying that gray area between are you a suspect or 530 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: are you a witness? And that's there's situations there. My 531 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: research on the Ataian justice system, it's more inquisitorial, so 532 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: the people are more heavily involved than again to present 533 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: the matter to court, which we've got to have the 534 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: serial system in Australia and it's by nine millions perfect, 535 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: but I think it gives a little bit of checks 536 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: and balances that disrupts the power. 537 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that because, like when I talk 538 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 2: about that with my prosecutor today and how involved he 539 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: was from the very beginning on and from an investigative standpoint, right, 540 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: you're pointing to the fact that the prosecutor and the 541 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: police or the detectives, the people who are investigating are 542 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: in bed with each other in a big way, whereas 543 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: in an adversarial system they're not in bed with each other. 544 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: Like the prosecutor is supposed to be a check against 545 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 2: the investigation to make sure that they're upholding, you know, 546 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: they actually have a case and they're upholding people's human 547 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: rights and all of that. When I talk to my 548 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 2: prosecutor about it, he the way he looks at it 549 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 2: is he says, well, I mean he thinks that the 550 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: Italian system is always better, so like he's always sort 551 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 2: of saying that, like the inquisitorial system is better because I, 552 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 2: as a prosecutor, am impartial, and therefore, when if I'm 553 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: involved from the very beginning, I am ensuring that the 554 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 2: police are proceeding in their investigation in a way that's impartial. 555 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 2: And that's when I have to be like Juliano, you 556 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: are not impartial. You are not like some godlike figure 557 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 2: who is able to like put his own biases off 558 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 2: the table as he's you know, in this situation, he 559 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 2: himself like, actually, I was going to ask you because 560 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: you're a professional homicide detective. Like one of the things 561 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: that my prosecutor says, and you know he says is 562 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 2: openly not just to me. Is that the reason why 563 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: the police and he initially assumed that I was somehow 564 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 2: involved was because from the very beginning they never believed 565 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: that a person had actually broken into our home. They 566 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 2: immediately assumed that the break in was staged and therefore 567 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 2: someone in the house was involved in this crime, and 568 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: they sort of narrowed it down almost immediately to me, 569 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: Can you explain this to me? 570 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: No, I can't. Okay, the reason I say the reason 571 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: I say I can't is that I've looked at the 572 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: facts as much as I could get access to and 573 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: how they could interpret that this place wasn't broken into. 574 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: Let's let's dumb it down. If there was a stage 575 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: crime scene and the window had been broken from the 576 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: inside out, forensically, the evidence would support the fact that, 577 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: oh that this is a stage breaking. But nothing in 578 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: what I've read or heard about your case there was 579 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: forensic evidence that said that it was just an opinion. 580 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: Someone would wouldn't have broken in there. And that is 581 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: the danger because that's when that confirmation bias really comes in. Okay, 582 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: it's stage, it's someone involved. So they weren't looking for 583 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: the random offender, someone that wasn't connected to the property. 584 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: They're looking right from the start that someone that lives 585 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: within in the property or has an association. So that's 586 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: where it goes wrong. Just winding back a little bit 587 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: on the issue with the Yeah, it's great because the 588 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: prosecutors working with the police, I call that and you 589 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: triggering for me, that's intellectual arrogance that I'm sorry. I'm 590 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: a qualified solicitor. Therefore I'm independent and professional in the 591 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: way I approach things. Bullshit, I say, like they've got 592 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: all the human failings that police have got. But when 593 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: you combine prosecution and the police all working together feeding 594 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: each other's narratives, I can definitely see how it goes 595 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 1: wrong in our situation where police I might come turn 596 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: up and go, this is a strong brief, and I've 597 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: got the prosecute looking at it objectively saying now, I 598 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: think we're short there. They're not as involved as the police. 599 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: But that's a good checks and balances with your situation. 600 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: It looked like they all just fed off each other's 601 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: narrative and you were you were the one that came 602 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: unstuck with it. 603 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it didn't help that like the international media 604 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: had descended upon this small town immediately, and that they 605 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 2: were like they were just journalists from all over the 606 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: world who like were there the next day, just like 607 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 2: prowling trying to find any kind of information. Everybody was 608 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 2: reporting on it, and so there was a lot of 609 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 2: pressure that the police and the prosecution were under to 610 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: deliver answers. And you know, with that initial like I 611 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 2: can understand if they are going off of that false 612 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: premise of well, it's a staged break in, then somebody 613 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 2: in the house has to be involved, Like I can 614 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 2: understand how they can then logically deduce, well, we got 615 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: to make sure Amanda is telling the whole truth and 616 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 2: nothing but the truth. But the problem is they just 617 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: they just at no point did they ever say, well, 618 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: maybe we could be wrong about that. They were just 619 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 2: like one hundred percent sure about it, and they then 620 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: went about the task of breaking me until I was 621 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 2: willing to confirm what they had already believed. 622 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want they get more 623 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, then you should head over 624 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can 625 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for 626 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: I Catchkillers video in your Spotify app and start watching today. 627 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: What I got a sense with your situation as you 628 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: just described it, it was okay, we think Amanda's involved. 629 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: The evidence isn't supporting, but we're just going to run 630 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: with it, and we're going to push and push to 631 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: fifty three hours. And it was a tough interrogation that 632 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,959 Speaker 1: was clearly been intimidated, and just me amount of time 633 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: that you're in there without an independent interpreter. Yeah, that 634 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't wash in here in Australia. You would strongly criticize 635 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 1: for that. There's a lot of things that wouldn't stand up. 636 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: What they finally got from you that worked against you 637 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: was an in part admission. Do you want to tell 638 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: us what happened there and what you're thinking was there? 639 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? So, And to be clear, it was fifty three 640 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 2: hours over five days, So it wasn't like I was 641 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 2: in one room for fifty three hours straight. What it 642 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: was was over five days from the discovery of Meredith's 643 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: murder to my arrest, I was really at the back 644 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,479 Speaker 2: and call of the police, and voluntarily in the sense 645 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: that like if the police were asking me to answer questions, 646 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 2: I did not at all question going in and being 647 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 2: of assistance, Like I mean, I didn't really know what 648 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 2: else to do. Like suddenly I was homeless and I 649 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 2: was now sort of staying with raphae La until I 650 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 2: could get back on my feet. The police conveyed to 651 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 2: me very early on that I was very important to 652 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 2: the investigation because I lived in the house. I was 653 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 2: so close to Meredith. I knew who she hung out with. 654 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: I was the one who came home and discovered the 655 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 2: crime scene. So of all the people that they could 656 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 2: treat as like an important witness, I was their most important. 657 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 2: That's what they told me, and I believed them, and 658 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 2: so I willingly subjected myself to what was an incredibly 659 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 2: overwhelming and exhausting situation. I mean, that first day of 660 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: questioning it went, I mean I think it started around noon, 661 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: and it went into it went overnight and into the 662 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 2: next day. I was allowed to go home to get 663 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 2: four hours of sleep before I was brought back into 664 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 2: the police station to answer questions. And so I really, like, 665 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 2: even like my sense of time was distorted because I 666 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: was sleep deprived over the course of these five days. 667 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 2: And of course, even when I was finally allowed to 668 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 2: go to sleep, I was you know, I was dealing 669 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 2: with the freaking my roommate had just been murdered, and 670 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 2: I was not sleeping well. So I was just so 671 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 2: I was just like I in the days leading up 672 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: to my that final interrogation, I was already sort of 673 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 2: being hammered down a bit, like I was answering the 674 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,760 Speaker 2: same questions over and over again. I was being asked 675 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 2: things that I didn't know the answers to and sort 676 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 2: of expect It felt like there was I was frustrating 677 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 2: the investigators because they expected me to know things that 678 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 2: I didn't know, like details about Meredith's sex life, Like 679 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 2: they wanted to know like really fine tune details about 680 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 2: like what like if she used vasaline in her cell 681 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 2: And I was just like, I don't know any of 682 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:16,879 Speaker 2: this information and it and they kept like, I mean, 683 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 2: it was a lot of pressure that was put on 684 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 2: my shoulders to sort of be be the person who 685 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 2: would break the case for them. And they kept saying 686 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 2: things like any little minor thing that you can that 687 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 2: you can think of that maybe you don't think is important, 688 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 2: but that could mean that could make or break the case. 689 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 2: And so I really got into my head of like 690 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 2: I need to just like try to figure out if 691 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 2: I if one person looked at her in a weird way, 692 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 2: would that was that the murderer and so here I 693 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 2: am just being exhausted. I'm feeling really wrung out. And 694 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 2: that final night, they didn't even actually call for me 695 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 2: to be come in for questioning. They called for my boyfriend, 696 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 2: and I was faced with a choice. So I think 697 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 2: they called it like ten pm or something like that. 698 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 2: We were getting ready to go to bed, and they 699 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 2: called him and said that he had to come in 700 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 2: for some follow up questions. And I was faced with 701 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 2: a choice. Do I stay home alone, which scares the 702 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 2: living crap out of me? 703 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: Now, I can I understand that? 704 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 2: Or do I just go with him to the police station. 705 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 2: And so I chose to go with him to the 706 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 2: police station, and I brought myt I brought my school work. 707 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 2: I thought that I was just going to be left 708 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 2: alone in the waiting room and I was going to 709 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 2: do my homework. That's what I was doing. And as 710 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there in the waiting room, a police officer 711 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 2: approaches me and is like, first of all, what are 712 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 2: you doing here? And I was like, well, I'm just 713 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 2: doing my homework. I'm waiting for Raphaela. And he's like, well, 714 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 2: as long as you're here, we might as well ask 715 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 2: you some questions too, and so he starts asking me 716 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 2: questions and that you know. Eventually another police officer arrived 717 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 2: and is like, well, if you're asking her questions, we 718 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 2: need to do that officially in an office and I'll 719 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 2: type up the answers. And I'm just like, I just 720 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 2: want to go to sleep. But they bring me into 721 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: there and they confront me with a lie. And it 722 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 2: was a lie. I had told them. They had explicitly 723 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 2: asked me in the days before if we smoked marijuana 724 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 2: in our house, and my roommates told me that I 725 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 2: could not tell the police the truth because everyone would 726 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 2: get into trouble. Yeah, so when they explicitly asked me, 727 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 2: I lied and said no. What I didn't know is 728 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 2: that in the apartment downstairs from us, the guys like 729 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 2: basically the guys who lived in the same house with us, 730 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 2: but just in the apartment below, they were growing marijuana 731 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 2: in their bathroom. And so I had no idea that 732 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 2: this was the case. And so the police obviously did 733 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,720 Speaker 2: not believe that we did not smoke marijuana in our house, 734 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 2: and they confronted me with that and they said, you're 735 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 2: a liar. What else are you lying about? And I was. 736 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,239 Speaker 2: I was just overwhelmed, like, I'm so sorry. I was 737 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 2: sort of put off on the wrong foot, and I 738 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 2: was like, I know that I lied, and I'm sorry 739 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 2: I lied, but I'm not lying about anything else. I 740 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 2: was just afraid that everyone would get into trouble, and 741 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 2: they just kept pushing and saying, well, we don't believe 742 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 2: what you're saying. What you're saying, doesn't you know, We're 743 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 2: going to have to go over everything again and make 744 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 2: sure you're telling the truth this time. And so we 745 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 2: have to go over everything again, the same questions over 746 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 2: and over what did But then there's this like focus 747 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,760 Speaker 2: on what did I do the night of the crime, 748 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 2: and they are asking for like minute details and what 749 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 2: exact time did you have dinner and what exact time 750 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 2: did you watch a movie? And how long did it 751 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 2: exactly last? And here I am trying to like perfectly 752 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 2: put together a timeline for them, and I'm doing some guesswork, 753 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 2: like I think we got to Rafaela's house around five thirty, 754 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 2: you know, like I'm I did. I wasn't looking at 755 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 2: my watch the whole time, and they're using that like 756 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 2: me not being able to perfectly construct a timeline as 757 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 2: evidence of me either lying or of me not remembering 758 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 2: the truth. And they introduced this idea to me that 759 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 2: I don't remember what really happened. And the reason I 760 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 2: don't remember what really happened is because my mind blacked 761 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 2: it out. My mind blacked out the truth, because I 762 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 2: witnessed something so horrible that my mind just could not 763 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 2: take it and blacked it out. They even say that 764 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 2: my mind made up memories of that Nate that aren't 765 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 2: real to cover up for this horrible thing that I 766 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 2: must have witnessed. 767 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: What what you describe in there? And again I look 768 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 1: at it, and from a policing point of view, you 769 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: were the type of person that's right for manipulation in 770 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: that situation, like your age, your naivety about what's gone on, 771 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: you were close to it. There potentially were answers for you. 772 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: Are there the line about the marijuana that should have 773 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: been accepted as yeah, I'd be disappointed in stuff. Yeah, 774 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,080 Speaker 1: that would be understandable. Of course you've got to have 775 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: a ga and lie. But I can see how it 776 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: just escalated to the point and then yeah, they got 777 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: things from you that fitted their narrative. That my understanding 778 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: that yeah, you because you're with Raphael as I understand 779 00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 1: the whole night at his place. 780 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I spent all night with and they are. 781 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: Working him on the same thing. Well, but you're asleeping 782 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,160 Speaker 1: at some time in bed. Maybe she's snuck out then, 783 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: and vice versa, so I can understand the chaos and 784 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: the confusion. What I want to want to do is 785 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: when we get back, talk about, okay, the realization that 786 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 1: it's gone from I'm just a witness in a horrific situation. 787 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: I'm doing the best to help the police, and then 788 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I'm in the spotlight for being 789 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: charged with my friend's murderer. Like It's part of the 790 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: reason I think it captured everyone's attention is that it 791 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: just seems so unbelievable that your story, what you've been through, 792 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: and that if it can happen to you, it can 793 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:46,720 Speaker 1: happen to anyone