1
00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm

2
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,680
Speaker 1: James Kirby. Welcome aboard everybody. Now let me ask you.

3
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 1: Are you good at making money? I expect so if

4
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 1: you're listening to this show, But what about keeping it?

5
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,400
Speaker 1: Are you good at keeping it accumulating it? Because there's

6
00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240
Speaker 1: a difference, you know. It's interesting. I was asked to

7
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,960
Speaker 1: just the other day what was my favorite investment book

8
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,040
Speaker 1: of all time? And I said The Millionaire next Door?

9
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,680
Speaker 1: And someone said it's nearly thirty years old, that book,

10
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,880
Speaker 1: and I said, yeah, but their principles work forever now.

11
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 1: Our Australian version of that book is written by a

12
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,880
Speaker 1: regular guest on the show, Jackie Clark. She wrote Stop

13
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 1: Worrying about Money. She's also an advisor of course various levels,

14
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,480
Speaker 1: particularly at the upper level in financial in the financial world,

15
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,440
Speaker 1: to family offices and that, and she is my guest today.

16
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:57,320
Speaker 2: How are you, Jackie?

17
00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 3: I'm really well, Gimes. It's lovely to be back.

18
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,320
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the book The Millionaire next Door?

19
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,960
Speaker 2: I'm not sorry, but you know what, that's.

20
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 1: A very admirable answer because that means you didn't know

21
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,919
Speaker 1: about it, which means you wrote your book without knowing

22
00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,440
Speaker 1: the principles which was put forward by mister Danko da

23
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 1: Nko back in nineteen ninety six. But it strikes me

24
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 1: that his view and your view are very similar. So

25
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,000
Speaker 1: just tell us about your working theme.

26
00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:30,200
Speaker 2: I mean we I.

27
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,320
Speaker 1: Think most of our listeners are tuned in right.

28
00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:33,160
Speaker 2: So they may may.

29
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,720
Speaker 1: Be better or worse, but they will be good at

30
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,959
Speaker 1: making money in their lives, particularly in their investments. But

31
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,680
Speaker 1: you have a continuing concern and persistent one in the book,

32
00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 1: which is about expense creep. I don't know where I

33
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,720
Speaker 1: come from on this one. I'm a bit skeptical about

34
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,280
Speaker 1: expense creep. I say to people, listen, you know, don't

35
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 1: worry about don't worry about the avocado. It's not going

36
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,440
Speaker 1: to make it. The avocado toast is not going to

37
00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,040
Speaker 1: make a difference whether you can buy the house or not.

38
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 1: That's where I come from that maybe that's not healthy

39
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:01,960
Speaker 1: you telling me.

40
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 3: Well, have I got news for you? To look at

41
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 3: it like this? And maybe the best example I can

42
00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,320
Speaker 3: give for you personally is so expense creep. I think

43
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 3: of it as lifestyle creep, which you've no doubt experience

44
00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,560
Speaker 3: and Probably the single easiest way to demonstrate this is

45
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 3: by asking you if there's a difference in the wine

46
00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 3: you drink today to the wine you drink when you're

47
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,880
Speaker 3: a university Yes, and why is that?

48
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,680
Speaker 1: Because I can't handle hangovers like I used to be

49
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 1: able to handle.

50
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,639
Speaker 3: So it's about the hangover. I wonder if, also, as

51
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,240
Speaker 3: your income grew from your poor university days, that you

52
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,080
Speaker 3: thought that you're entitled to actually drink something a little

53
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,920
Speaker 3: bit nicer. Yes, spend a little bit more.

54
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,120
Speaker 1: Your theory is that we fluat that we just incrementally

55
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,320
Speaker 1: every day and everywhere. It's not that we get up

56
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:53,679
Speaker 1: in the morning and see, I must spend more.

57
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:59,160
Speaker 2: It's just that easy too. A bigger spender is that it?

58
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, asolutely, And I think about for example, I always

59
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 3: pick on Netflix, which is kind of relatively unkind of me.

60
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 3: But when I started off with a Netflix subscription, you know,

61
00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 3: I often bing on to people about keeping a lid

62
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 3: on subscriptions or checking them regularly. And when I started,

63
00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,839
Speaker 3: it was eight ninety nine and now it's twenty eight

64
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 3: dollars ninety nine a month. Now, that's that's not three

65
00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,800
Speaker 3: hundred percent inflation. That's something that's something all together different,

66
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 3: and so knowing the real cost of living is the secret.

67
00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,480
Speaker 3: And I think that's where expense creep really comes home

68
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 3: to you because you realize that you go from making

69
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 3: food at home to maybe eating out. You've gone from

70
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,200
Speaker 3: eating out to Uber eats. Now we're talking today about

71
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,120
Speaker 3: a thirty percent increase on expense just by using the

72
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,360
Speaker 3: Uber service.

73
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 1: I saw that if you get your food delivered instead

74
00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,000
Speaker 1: of going down to the shop, it's roughly a third

75
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: more more.

76
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,920
Speaker 3: So there's that, and then the progression on that, I

77
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,080
Speaker 3: think is also then go out, so there's a lot

78
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,120
Speaker 3: more of In fact, when I'm analyzing, you know, I

79
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 3: talk a lot about getting people's financial house in order

80
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,840
Speaker 3: and knowing what it costs to open their front door.

81
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 3: One of the things that I'm increasingly saying is how

82
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,520
Speaker 3: much of this Uber eats process, if you're like, is

83
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,200
Speaker 3: creeping into families lives. I'm sorry to use the word creep.

84
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,720
Speaker 3: But the other thing is look at the bigger lifestyle

85
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,919
Speaker 3: things like your house. You might have started off renting

86
00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 3: a studio flat when you're at college, and you progress

87
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,240
Speaker 3: to perhaps buying your first investment property or a unit.

88
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,120
Speaker 3: It might be a one bedroom, it might be a

89
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,160
Speaker 3: two bedroom. Then you go to a three bedroom house.

90
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,680
Speaker 3: You know, you might get married, you might have children,

91
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,400
Speaker 3: and things get bigger and bigger. So it's kind of

92
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,359
Speaker 3: a bit like the waistline with time. But so this

93
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,880
Speaker 3: lifestyle creep or expense creep just naturally occurs instead of

94
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,360
Speaker 3: the rent you've got the mortgage. The mortgage gets bigger,

95
00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,160
Speaker 3: and I think that has a natural impact on all

96
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 3: the things we do. You might decide to improve the

97
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,040
Speaker 3: car you've got because you can. So there's this sort

98
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 3: of fine line between living very much for today, which

99
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,919
Speaker 3: is I think where expense creep is a real challenge

100
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,480
Speaker 3: for us to try and write size to be more

101
00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,440
Speaker 3: aligned than with what your financial goals are.

102
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:15,599
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean I do like the fact that you

103
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,920
Speaker 1: have this measured, and it's very interesting. There's actually evidence, right,

104
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,400
Speaker 1: this is a survey folks that is just out actually

105
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,599
Speaker 1: about how using those services for food, it's the cost

106
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:27,919
Speaker 1: of your food by one third.

107
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,479
Speaker 2: So let's hang on to that for a moment.

108
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 3: I think that would become as a bit of a

109
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,160
Speaker 3: surprise to people. But what I am saying is how

110
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,720
Speaker 3: increasingly uber eats falls into once you get beyond sort

111
00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,080
Speaker 3: of rent, mortgage groceries. One of the next highest expenses

112
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,200
Speaker 3: outside of insurance becomes uber eats.

113
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,000
Speaker 1: But to play Devil's advocate on this, I always an

114
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,080
Speaker 1: accountant who lived around the corner when I was or

115
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,600
Speaker 1: whatever a teenager. He explained the notion of pennywise and

116
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 1: pounds stupid to me. And it's really strong, you know.

117
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,800
Speaker 1: It was that the pounds that don't worry pennies look

118
00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,240
Speaker 1: after the pounds of the pennies will look after themselves.

119
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 2: That's sort of like folklore.

120
00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,159
Speaker 1: Almost, but I think it's very strong. And as I

121
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,920
Speaker 1: said at the start, when someone says if they're say,

122
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,599
Speaker 1: first home buyer agent, they say to me, or maybe

123
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,280
Speaker 1: we shouldn't order the mash avocado or whatever. The old

124
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: almost a cliche now at this stage.

125
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,240
Speaker 2: Whatever it costs twenty five dollars.

126
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 1: But part of me, the rational part of me, actually says,

127
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, listen, just have it, because it's not going

128
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,479
Speaker 1: to make a difference whether you get a million dollar

129
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,400
Speaker 1: mortgage or a nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars mortgage.

130
00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you might as well live. What do you

131
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,160
Speaker 1: think of what's your account of view to the how

132
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:39,200
Speaker 1: do you attackle.

133
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,960
Speaker 3: That It's easy for me to say now at my age,

134
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,160
Speaker 3: I start thinking about the consequence of the AVO toast,

135
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,839
Speaker 3: eating out every morning, and what that's going to look

136
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,159
Speaker 3: like at sixty and seventy when I want to retire

137
00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 3: or reduce how much I work. So I do think

138
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,320
Speaker 3: I dropped in that comment around financial goals, But I

139
00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,720
Speaker 3: think financial goal setting is really quite critical because once

140
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 3: you have the opportunity to sort of look forward a

141
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,440
Speaker 3: little bit, it might just change that decision making process

142
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 3: you've got here. So I kind of like the philosophy

143
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 3: because I don't think it's a nice way to live necessarily.

144
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 3: In fact, I'm just almost finished reading the Morgan Housle's

145
00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 3: new book. Is it The Art of Spending or something

146
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,880
Speaker 3: about spending money? It's great and he wrote the Psychology

147
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 3: of Money first. Yes, but I think it goes to

148
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,760
Speaker 3: this a little bit, which is sort of recognizing that,

149
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 3: you know, it's okay to do things this particular way

150
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 3: you've got you do have to enjoy life. But the

151
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 3: reality is also recognizing this pattern what it might set

152
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:36,920
Speaker 3: you up for in the future, and do you have

153
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,440
Speaker 3: to adapt? And I don't want to end up not

154
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 3: being able to have avocado toast. Where I'm sixty five

155
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:42,600
Speaker 3: or seventy.

156
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 1: Five, I'm a bit more persuaded by that, Actually that

157
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 1: you said to yourself. Listen, you know I work hard.

158
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 1: You know I'll work at a high level. I work fast. Here,

159
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,920
Speaker 1: I am on the you know whatever, a public holiday,

160
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 1: working whatever. And my reward for that is I have

161
00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,800
Speaker 1: whatever I want, whenever I want, and that's not going

162
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 1: to change. Problem is when you get to mid sixties

163
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 1: someone says, well, actually, we don't expect you to work,

164
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 1: you know, that much longer, and you set to yourself, jeepers,

165
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, I may have to settle for whatever. And

166
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 1: it might sound good on paper, the income you might

167
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: draw from your super ORR SMS effort, it won't be

168
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,040
Speaker 1: my friends anything like the headline number you're getting as

169
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:25,560
Speaker 1: a full time salary person.

170
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 2: Is that, of course you're alluding to? Really? Is that?

171
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,640
Speaker 2: It's an interesting view of it.

172
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it absolutely is. And you know where I

173
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,199
Speaker 3: see it most commonly, certainly at the moment, is when

174
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,080
Speaker 3: people are being made redundant. So there's certainly a fair

175
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,960
Speaker 3: chunk of redundancies happening around corporate roles, and I think

176
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 3: it's like the brakes get slammed on. Usually people leave

177
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 3: with the termination payment or something like that, so they're

178
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,440
Speaker 3: able to continue to find their critical expenses like mortgage

179
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 3: and food and things like that. But actually then it's like,

180
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 3: hang on a second. You can't keep running like this

181
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 3: or you eat into that entire redundance, you know, payment,

182
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,240
Speaker 3: and where does that leave you? And how long have

183
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,079
Speaker 3: you got before you absolutely need to land. So the pressure,

184
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 3: the stress, the anxiety of landing that next job. And

185
00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,120
Speaker 3: similarly with people, you know, they talk a lot about

186
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,960
Speaker 3: gray divorce. Now, I was used to dealing with a

187
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,360
Speaker 3: lot of people in their forties going through divorce, but

188
00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,760
Speaker 3: now there's this sort of huge perhaps trend wrong word

189
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,720
Speaker 3: for divorces happening in their fifties. And it's really similar,

190
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 3: which as I used to live this way, well, hang

191
00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,640
Speaker 3: on a minute. Now my retirement bucket looks like this,

192
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 3: which is a little bit smaller. You know, how do

193
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 3: I change? What do I need to change my lifestyle?

194
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,120
Speaker 3: So and that's when people sometimes for the first time,

195
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 3: are actually realizing what to that penny wise argument, what

196
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 3: things actually cost.

197
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 1: Yes, so you can now take the opportunity to tell

198
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:54,000
Speaker 1: people your golden rules, which for sober because Jackie's going

199
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,079
Speaker 1: to tell you you're going to stop to stop doing

200
00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,040
Speaker 1: what you've been doing.

201
00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,080
Speaker 3: Yes, well, well, I mean the main thing for me

202
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:09,320
Speaker 3: is everyone's different in thinking of that concept of financial freedom.

203
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,840
Speaker 3: It has lots of different connotations to different people. And

204
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,719
Speaker 3: you can based on your money story, how you've grown up,

205
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,480
Speaker 3: whether you've come from that spend through family, whether you're

206
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 3: a group of savers. These are all sort of things

207
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 3: to recognize when you're looking at what financial freedom might

208
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 3: look for you. But when I focus on conversation with

209
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 3: people about getting their financial house in order, they've got

210
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 3: to know what it costs to live their current lifestyle.

211
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that's great, good to know, bank

212
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 3: it and move on. I'm saying, what do we need

213
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 3: to change to enable that future if you like to

214
00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 3: take shape? And what are the realities of the way

215
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 3: you spend now, how would that look in five, ten,

216
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,440
Speaker 3: fifteen years from now? And how dependent on your income

217
00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:58,559
Speaker 3: is that lifestyle?

218
00:10:59,040 --> 00:10:59,319
Speaker 2: Right?

219
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: Interesting, We're going to go to a break just before

220
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:03,160
Speaker 1: we do, because what we're going to do in the

221
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 1: second half, folks, is we're going to pan this into investing. Okay,

222
00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,960
Speaker 1: but before we do something that struck me there. You

223
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,960
Speaker 1: mentioned about the house people grow up in. I wonder

224
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:18,600
Speaker 1: is there an under estimated factor where people react. They

225
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 1: grow up in a house where mom and dad spent everything,

226
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,000
Speaker 1: had paid no attention to the bills, and it was

227
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,839
Speaker 1: kind of chaos. They become frugal, and if they grow

228
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 1: up in a house that's say, painfully frugal, they say, right, well,

229
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,120
Speaker 1: that was miserable and I'm going to spend spent.

230
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:33,880
Speaker 2: Do you think that's relevant?

231
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,840
Speaker 3: It is absolutely relevant. The question is do you reflect

232
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,800
Speaker 3: the same type of behavior and you see this coming

233
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,120
Speaker 3: into relationships often. So you could have grown up in

234
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,840
Speaker 3: that frugal lifestyle and you decide to live a life

235
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,640
Speaker 3: of abundance as an adult.

236
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 2: Maybe abundant rather than abundance that too, but.

237
00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,440
Speaker 3: You can see the clash of those styles and how

238
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 3: that might impact every day decision and decision making. If

239
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 3: I want an new tov, I want to lounge, I'll

240
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 3: just get it. The money's in the bank, but it

241
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 3: fails to recognize what the opportunity cost is I guess

242
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,400
Speaker 3: of doing or making choices that way? You know equally

243
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 3: that kind of frugality can be so restrictive and take

244
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,120
Speaker 3: enjoyment out of your life. So I think we all

245
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 3: have to say, hey, like I like to think of

246
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 3: rewarding rewarding yourself is okay, But perhaps you reward yourself

247
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,120
Speaker 3: from meeting a particular savings or investment goal by doubling

248
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 3: down on the savings or investment, not actually going and

249
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 3: spending it then on a handbag or something else.

250
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,040
Speaker 1: Fabulous, that's really interesting. Okay, Now, folks, we'll be back

251
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 1: in a moment and we'll have a look at the

252
00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:52,679
Speaker 1: investor in this environment. Hello and welcome back to The

253
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,080
Speaker 1: Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. James Kirby here with Jackie Clark,

254
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,600
Speaker 1: regular on the show. We have been talking about what

255
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 1: Jackie likes to talk about in part one, which is

256
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 1: about behaving yourself financially and the rewards of that. Because,

257
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,040
Speaker 1: fair enough, on the show and in all financial media

258
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 1: and investment media, we pay so much attention to making

259
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,440
Speaker 1: the money and very little to keeping it or not

260
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,800
Speaker 1: losing it. Now, let's look at in terms of the

261
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,240
Speaker 1: investment side of things. I want to ask you, you

262
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 1: advise at a fairly high level some of the wealthiest

263
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: people families in the land. What's their attitude towards investment expenses.

264
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:30,720
Speaker 2: I'd love to know.

265
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,559
Speaker 1: Do they say, no, I don't want to pay any

266
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,960
Speaker 1: fees or do they say I'll pay the fees if

267
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,520
Speaker 1: I get there? Is there such a thing as a

268
00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 1: consensus view at the top level on that.

269
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I'd agree with the latter point. I think

270
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 3: that money buys power, as we know, it also buys choice,

271
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 3: and when you're in that game, one of the things

272
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,800
Speaker 3: we do often is we talk to multiple advisors and

273
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 3: understand their fee structure and understand how they recognize their

274
00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,600
Speaker 3: own performance and make decisions based on that. So, yeah,

275
00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,640
Speaker 3: people are pretty careful at the top end, if you like,

276
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 3: about the fees that they pay. And they may be

277
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,520
Speaker 3: also in a position because they have that buying power

278
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 3: to get the best out of it. They obviously get

279
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 3: much better rates than your average you know, entry level

280
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,840
Speaker 3: wholesale investor obviously retail as well.

281
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 2: So can these people actually switch switch?

282
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 1: If you like live they're talking to the ETF fund

283
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: and they're arguing over like, you know, the second micro

284
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 1: micro fee. And then are you saying that someone comes

285
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 1: in the door and they say, look, We're a boutique,

286
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 1: you know, corporate bond junk bond player in the US

287
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,560
Speaker 1: in New York, and we take we've had you know,

288
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 1: look at our numbers. We've done twenty percent a year

289
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,359
Speaker 1: every year and we charge two percent plus twenty performance.

290
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,040
Speaker 1: And do they not and say okay? Broadly, like in principle,

291
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,600
Speaker 1: are they okay with those super high fees if they

292
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 1: have super high retrants?

293
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 3: Look, I think James, almost always you're balancing that against

294
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 3: different objectives. So there might be a portion of income

295
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,600
Speaker 3: that's dedicated that way, another portion of investment, I should say,

296
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 3: dedicated another way. I think it's fair to say a

297
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 3: lot of people, particularly wealthy families, will take a risk

298
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,920
Speaker 3: on a certain share of their wealth. To what extent

299
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 3: and into which markets that remains. It comes down a lot,

300
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 3: honestly to the individual and their appetite for risk. I

301
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 3: would generally say it's relatively high. But then again, a

302
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 3: lot of Australian wealth is still heavily tied to active businesses.

303
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 3: And you know, I'm a big proponent for sticking to

304
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 3: what you know, and so you know that's where they'll

305
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 3: double down and perhaps go on a more riskier approach

306
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 3: as opposed to a market they don't understand, or if

307
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,920
Speaker 3: it's somewhere they don't understand, but they've got good intel

308
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,600
Speaker 3: on it, then you take a smaller investment and see

309
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:51,640
Speaker 3: how it performs.

310
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,640
Speaker 1: So for the every day investor, listen into the show,

311
00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,840
Speaker 1: what's your view about expenses? Management expenses, running expenses, performance fees?

312
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 2: What do you suggest that they should do about that?

313
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 2: How should they approach it?

314
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 3: Well, in terms of like a management expense ratio? I mean,

315
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 3: as an investor, you have very little influence. You vote

316
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,640
Speaker 3: with your feet, don't you. So if you decide to

317
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 3: go down the path of an investment that carries a

318
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,520
Speaker 3: high expense ratio, then so be it. There's not much

319
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,800
Speaker 3: you can do about that, and certainly is in a

320
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,920
Speaker 3: minority position. It's not like you can influence the management's

321
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,840
Speaker 3: decision on how they remunerate themselves or otherwise.

322
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 1: Yes, you taken or leave it. But is there an

323
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: area where you'd be more willing to absorb these higher fees?

324
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 1: Are there actual areas?

325
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 3: That's a tough question. I think it would maybe case

326
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,040
Speaker 3: by case basis, but I don't know that necessarily going

327
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 3: for a higher return a higher fee makes all that

328
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 3: much sense to at someone at a retail level, because

329
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 3: I would question why you need to go down the

330
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 3: path of maybe the higher risk asset in any case, like,

331
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 3: would you be better off to go for a more

332
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:08,120
Speaker 3: market accepted return with a market accepted fee, Probably would

333
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,040
Speaker 3: be the right, especially when we're talking about investing your

334
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,119
Speaker 3: total life savings that could be a couple hundred thousand dollars,

335
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,639
Speaker 3: maybe a million dollars.

336
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,680
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, what about But we're prepared. There's always the

337
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,439
Speaker 1: thing that comes up on the show where people say, yes,

338
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,760
Speaker 1: you're so careful about everything, and then you're happy to

339
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,440
Speaker 1: gear up big time to buy your home.

340
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,679
Speaker 3: Oh, it was a crazy Australian dream. You're absolutely right

341
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,040
Speaker 3: about that, you know. I had this conversation. What's interesting

342
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 3: is I'm having this conversation a lot, and perhaps in

343
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 3: the last week three great divorce people who I'm talking

344
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,359
Speaker 3: to for the first time contemplating spending the proceeds of

345
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 3: sale of their family home purely invested. So basically go

346
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 3: and rent because their life's expecting to change quite a

347
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 3: bit in the next ten years. Maybe kids finishing school

348
00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 3: or at university. They know they're going to move a

349
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,440
Speaker 3: little bit, So they're thinking about that sort of constant opportunity,

350
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 3: if you like. Plus there's the downsides of contribution from super,

351
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,160
Speaker 3: so another angle for them to up their super which

352
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 3: is generally on the low side. I happen to be

353
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 3: drawing the three women that are all going through that

354
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:14,840
Speaker 3: great divorce.

355
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,160
Speaker 2: And these divorces.

356
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 1: Are they cashing out to get at funds and take

357
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,919
Speaker 1: a smaller home or are they cashing out and having

358
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,400
Speaker 1: no home that they own.

359
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,439
Speaker 3: Cashing out and having no home that they own. So

360
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,920
Speaker 3: their wealth is tied up predominantly in that family home,

361
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 3: and the balance that they're going to take away, whether

362
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 3: that's a million dollars or two million dollars, is going

363
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 3: to be invested in the market under a manager, and

364
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 3: they will derive a passive income from that court passive

365
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,639
Speaker 3: I call it passive, you might call it active, depending

366
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,720
Speaker 3: on how we go with that. And they will rent

367
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 3: and not have a home.

368
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,440
Speaker 1: I worry about the deeper notion that the entire tax

369
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 1: system is designed for people who do have a home.

370
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 3: It's true in the context of your main residence exemption

371
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 3: for capital gains tax, but beyond that, but the difficulty

372
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 3: is having everything tied up that way. But I think

373
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 3: this is actually learning a different way to live as well.

374
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 3: That might create great flexibility for travel, sure, for different experiences,

375
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 3: and perhaps when you and I guess we're talking predominantly

376
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 3: great divorce in this moment, but also when you're in

377
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 3: a bit of a state of flux, things have changed

378
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,159
Speaker 3: a lot for you. So give yourself some time. You

379
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 3: don't need to lock into a particular suburb, go mortgage

380
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 3: up again. You know, there's a lot of stress associate

381
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:37,360
Speaker 3: with these situation.

382
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 1: So it's something did strike me that it did come

383
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 1: up when we did a show on divorce, and it

384
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 1: did come up that there's almost like a myth that

385
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: the person who gets the house wins.

386
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,880
Speaker 2: Oh, that seems to me that you wouldn't agree with that.

387
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 3: Just no, no, not at all. In fact, I just

388
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,120
Speaker 3: wrote a sub stack article on a week ago James

389
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 3: to that point particularly, which is what I find is

390
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 3: a lot of women go to push to keep the

391
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 3: house the family home. But I think the reality of

392
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 3: that is it becomes this sort of box, if you like,

393
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 3: of all these memories that they don't serve you necessarily

394
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 3: for the future, and so people end up asset rich

395
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 3: and cash poor.

396
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 1: An extreme version of it, right, and the people, the

397
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: incidents and everything of the house.

398
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely And there's some brilliant cases in Eastern suburb

399
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 3: Sydney families where wives have pushed really hard to get

400
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 3: the house. Have they got the house, they couldn't afford

401
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 3: a renovation or to fix up a leaky pipe because

402
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 3: they've got no cash, but they've basically don't gone through

403
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 3: the split and it's all ended in that house bucket.

404
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 3: So I know, we've kind of gone down a bit

405
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 3: of a It's.

406
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 1: Very interesting that it comes back to the same sort

407
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: of principles that you mentioned at the very start, which

408
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,679
Speaker 1: is knowing, you know, knowing how much you're spending and

409
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 1: knowing how much you have and knowing.

410
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 2: Where you're going financially.

411
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 3: And choice, as Jane's one of the things on about

412
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 3: a lot with people is having choice. You know, the

413
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 3: context of financial freedom is about having choice. Having income

414
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 3: is about having choice. So where you restrict that by

415
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 3: tying cash up like you might with a home, then

416
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 3: what choice does that leave you?

417
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: Right?

418
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 1: Okay, that's really interesting. We'll just finished on this issue

419
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 1: before we go to questions with people who are making

420
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 1: a decision something like we've we've described before. We normally

421
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: I give this warning during questions and answer time, but

422
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: obviously seek advice on an issue of lifestyle changes as

423
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,160
Speaker 1: dramatic as that. Okay, we'll be back in a moment

424
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: with very interesting questions. Hello, and welcome back to The

425
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: Australian's Money Puzzled podcast with Jackie Clark and James. A

426
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: question from Brent be Orient. I'm looking for some assistance

427
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: in understanding how cash ETFs work. This is really interesting, folks,

428
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: because they are an alternative, of course to term deposits,

429
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: and they're liquid, and they're accessible and the fees are low.

430
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: So interesting one. Brent says, what are the risks with

431
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: cash ETFs exchange traded funds? With the major providers, they

432
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: appear to pay four percent in charge fees of only

433
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 1: zero point one eight percent? Is this secure and easily accessed?

434
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 1: Great question, never talked about it before.

435
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 2: Tell us about them?

436
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think what I like about this question

437
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 3: is it that one of those ones that makes you

438
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 3: pause for a moment. What I have saying is these

439
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: cash based atfs, so primarily you think about liquidity, So

440
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 3: you and I think of cash as very liquid. If

441
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 3: you have a cash ATF you're going to wait maybe

442
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: two days to get your money out. Now, that might

443
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 3: not be a lot unless you're coming to something critical

444
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 3: like a settlement or otherwise. I think that's really important

445
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 3: to be aware of. And you know, honestly, if you

446
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 3: look at the banks and other institutions, you might find

447
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 3: that you're getting that right without any fee.

448
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: Well you might, but you probably have to do quite

449
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: an elaborate arrangement with one of the banks. By that,

450
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 1: I mean they tend to be the accounts that are

451
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: parasitsical for one.

452
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 2: Of the better worlds.

453
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: On top of existing accounts, you know what I mean,

454
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: online only etc. You must open account and then you

455
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: must open a second account which feeds off.

456
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 2: The lower account.

457
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 1: And they do pay the best in terms of that

458
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: call rates in the market. I know that, but I

459
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: think I best did before at best. While Brent says

460
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: that cash ETFs are paying this, these are the big

461
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: names and certainly those big names would have liquidity, so

462
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: we don't have to worry about that.

463
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 3: So did I stack up against the banks is the question?

464
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 2: Yeah?

465
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: And to what extent? So I've mentioned liquidity if that's

466
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: not going to be an issue. There's no reason why

467
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 3: you can't consider. I just think the catch all atfs

468
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 3: may we aren't the best style of accessing atfs or

469
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: kind of why they were created. Yes, like everyone will

470
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 3: have a view on that. They're often very industry specific

471
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 3: or a particular segment of the market or picking up

472
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: all indices. I guess it depends a lot on your

473
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 3: investment behavior.

474
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: But you sound you sound madly enthusiastic about the CASHI

475
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: TFS as an option.

476
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 3: I'd be on the fence. I'd really going direct. Yes,

477
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 3: it's really.

478
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 2: All right, very good, terrific.

479
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: Have you on the show again, Jackie, and thank you

480
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: very much for the instruction, for the instruction on spending,

481
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: which we past so little attention to on the show

482
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: with all of them.

483
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the key thing is wanting people to

484
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 3: set meaningful financial goals, and I think once you do that,

485
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: you create a better platform for recognizing why or how

486
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 3: expense grover has affected your life and think about tomorrow,

487
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 3: not just today.

488
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: I thought your observation about if a financial goal is

489
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: how much you want to live on when you retire,

490
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: and you know from vast majority of people that are

491
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 1: not going to make anything like they're made in their profession.

492
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: And like, until you've had a redundacy event or something

493
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 3: like that, you haven't even had a reality check into

494
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 3: saying this. When this sort of money tree stops producing

495
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 3: this income, what happens. Oops, I've created this huge lifestyle

496
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 3: that's had you know, expense creep running through it. I

497
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 3: just gave you one tiny, two tiny examples about your

498
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 3: wine purchases and your Netflix. The extent to which they've

499
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 3: increased is frightening. And you think that applies to everything

500
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: in a household, electricity, utilities, rent, mortgage, you name it.

501
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: And if the mortgage doesn't go up, the size of

502
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 3: the mortgage does.

503
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: Terrific. Good advice.

504
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: All right, thank you very much, Thanks James, and let's

505
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: have some more questions folks. The money Puzzle at the

506
00:25:54,080 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot eu managed h