WEBVTT - Andrew Denton on a beloved broadcaster's final taboo act 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:04.680 Well, this is a bit of a strange moment for 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:07.960 me and probably for you as well. I have to 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:10.880 tell you something. There's something I have to share that 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.080 has been going on in my life and that I 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.560 now have to tell you about because I'm not going 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:17.960 to be here for a few months. I've got to 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.200 go off and deal with something. And the thing I've 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.880 got to go off and deal with is cancer. I've 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:24.240 got a cancer. 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.800 And from his diagnosis with aesophageal cancer in twenty twenty 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:33.479 four to openly wrestling with end of life decisions, beloved 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:38.560 ABC broadcaster and longtime voice of Sydney Afternoons, James Valentine 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.040 took his listeners along with him as he stared down 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:43.000 his own death. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.479 I'm James Valentine, and this season we're talking about death 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.120 or on this episode, why we don't talk about it enough? 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:51.080 Now? 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:56.040 After his passing, that openness continues with James's decision to 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.400 share the fact that he ended his life through voluntary 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.360 assisted dying or VAD. 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.440 He was able to do the VAD, which was really 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.280 important to him, so we were all able to be 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:10.040 together and just you know, yeah, it was really beautiful. 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.680 In his final moments, he was still concerned about making 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.160 a difference and that was something that was so important 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:19.000 to him that we mentioned that. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:27.880 I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today. 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:33.240 Go Gentle Australia founder Andrew Denton on James's decision and 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:37.240 why some Australians still have trouble accessing VAD despite it 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:46.640 being legal in all but one Australian territory. It's Wednesday, 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:55.640 April twenty nine. Andrew, you knew James Valentine and had 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.600 spoken to him about voluntary assisted dying. How did that 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.280 converse sation go? And could you tell us about how 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.680 open he was while facing death. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.400 About a year before James died, I did a remarkable 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:15.360 podcast conversation with him and a clinical psychologist, doctor Kerry Noonan, which, 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.720 in James's inimitable style, he titled Let's talk about Death, Baby, 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:25.000 and we spoke very openly about the difficulty of confronting death, 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.480 the way conversations shut down around it, about how to 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.680 have those conversations, and about what happens after people dian 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.959 how to have those conversations, and it was remarkably raw 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.080 because of James's situation, he was in between his first 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.760 cancer treatment and he had gone into remission. But at 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.280 the end of the conversation, and I remember very clearly, 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.239 I could see James getting emotional and I asked him, 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.360 I said, what are you feeling right now, James? 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.920 Well, if we have a funny connection over many decades 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:02.639 and to observe you go through, to see you transformed 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:04.880 doing that, it's been quite extraordinary. And I'll probably just 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.920 contemplated my own death and exactly. 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:09.240 Right, jameson. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.760 I think it says a lot about his courage and 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.720 his skill as a communicator that he was prepared to 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.400 be so open about something about which many of us 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:20.160 ever closed. 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.040 Now, James had decided that he wanted his family to 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.720 share with the public how he died. Why do you 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.960 think that he wanted them to know? And what type 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:35.320 of impact do you think that kind of conversation and 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.560 sharing will have on the community. 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.680 Look, it shouldn't be courageous, but unfortunately there's a great 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.360 deal of stigma that sits around for untry sister dying. 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.440 It's a stigma that was in many ways created and 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.960 forced and amplified by its opponents, most particularly the Catholic Church, 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.880 who still refer to it as some form of suicide, 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.680 even though leading suicide prevention organizations in Australia sare is 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:02.440 something distinctly different choice between two forms of death. I 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.120 think they wanted to talk about it because they for 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.000 the same reason that James wanted to talk about his 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.040 illness and his diagnosis and his treatment, that he wanted 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.480 to demystify and model a good way to approach end 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:15.160 of life. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:16.080 We knew it was. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.000 Coming, we knew there was sort of no way out 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:19.520 of this, but to be able to sort of do 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.400 it on his own terms was really important to him, 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.920 and to sort of get that choice as much as 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.080 he could in this time, and he really wanted to know, 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.760 like he wanted it to be something that people knew 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.120 that he did that if there's ever you know, he 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.320 could lend his voice to the argument of why this 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.560 is such a necessary thing for so many people. 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.960 The fact that his kids have now gone on air 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.360 and talked about what those last days were like for James, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.839 the level of control and love it enabled. 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.120 Everyone's bringing a heavy heart to it and it's a 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.680 big loss, but he was so full of joy still 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:56.880 and we're full of joy and we're laughing along to 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.360 all we clips in the saxophone, and. 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.800 James had a big living wake where he was farewell 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.400 by three hundred of his friends and the people who 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.560 loved him. So it leaves, and I'm sure it's left 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.200 James's family and friends with beautiful memories of James. And 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.880 I understand he played the sacks, which of course was 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.919 part of his essential persona. And you still grieve. Death 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.160 is still the loss it will always be, but at 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.840 least you know that that person has died in as 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:33.800 merciful of fashion as as possible, and that you've been 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:35.640 part of that, and you have helped them with their 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:40.200 final wishes. So I think all that informed James's choice 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.640 and the family's willingness to be so public about it. 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.039 And as you said, his family they've spoken about how 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:51.240 special the time was leading up to his death because 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.440 they knew it was coming. Is that a common feeling 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:57.320 for families in this sort of situation. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.560 We often hear this about people to choose vad that 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.520 even if they were unsure about the process or unsure 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.960 about the original choice of the person going through it, 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.359 they deeply value the fact that they were able to 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.760 have that time without the levels of distress and collapse 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.440 that I was describing before. I've learned there's a scarier 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.960 sea word than cancer, Nicoleon, that's cascade. And sometimes at 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:24.760 the end of life, your medical condition can really accelerate 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.599 out of control. And the great value of VAD the 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.279 choice of that is it gives you the offer of 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.400 control even if things accelerate very quickly. If you have 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.560 that medication, they're with you, or if you have access to 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.680 that medication, you can still make things happen in a 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.479 way that you want them to be. I'm just thinking 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.680 of a young man whose local palady care service and 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.680 nurses did an extraordinary job. They facilitated him dying on 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.039 the beach, which is where he wanted to die grown 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.880 up near the beach. You know, I think for myself, Gee, 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.719 wouldn't I like to go with a perhaps a decent 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.240 p cocktail and a nice sunset and beautiful music and 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.000 my football team having won the premiership. That might be 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.719 a bit hard, but that's isn't that what we want? 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.120 We want to die as who we are, not as 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.080 a shell of who we are. 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:16.360 Coming up. 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.880 The barrier is still standing in the way of voluntary 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:31.000 assisted dying. Andrew voluntary assisted dying is now legal in 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.679 every state except the Northern Territory, but it still doesn't 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.800 feel like something that Australians are really comfortable talking about. 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.200 Why is that, do you think and what examples have 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.960 you seen of that kind of taboo playing out in 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.720 our healthcare systems and in age care. 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.760 It's an enforced taboot still. I mentioned earlier the people 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.320 who opposed this law that it's always been their line 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.080 to describe this as suicide, which has a very different 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.600 meaning in society. The most senior Catholic in this country, 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.040 the Archbishop of Sydney, Reverend Anthony Fisher, at the end 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.280 of last year, described doctors going into hospitals to legally 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.840 assist people to die as quote unquote kill teams. You 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:13.520 can't get much more aggressive or stigmatic than that, and 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.400 it astonishes me that a man of Christian faith, who 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.600 much is under the banner of mercy would use such 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.520 aggressive and ugly language about medical professionals helping people at 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.040 the end of their life. There's a lot of other 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.640 problems too, you know. We did a survey of most 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.960 of Australia's age care providers in each state and nationally 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.160 to see what kind of information they provide about VAD, 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:41.640 and only five percent full providers provide full information about VAD, 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.840 so there's an institutional reluctance to talk about this. Doctors 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:51.160 are often dismissive or sometimes openly hostile towards people make 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.680 requests because of their personal beliefs, and even in the 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.240 Age Care Act, which was rewritten and relegislated last year, 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:02.280 despite repeated it is from ourselves and others within the 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.679 definition of end of life care, there's no mention of that. 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:07.800 So this flows down and the kind of behavior we 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.079 see sometimes is inexcusable. 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.680 And yet despite all those problems and the debate and 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:18.440 the taboo, we've seen the applications for voluntary assisted dying 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.640 rise by more than forty percent in the last year 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.520 or so, but still almost half of patients who start 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.480 the process don't actually finish it. Why do you think 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:30.040 that is. 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.360 Well, there's a number of reasons. First of all, the 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.200 law itself, the process is not meant to be easy 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.920 to get through. It's meant to be careful and deliberative, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.760 and that's as it should be. And not everyone chooses 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:47.080 to proceed. It's a choice, and some people choose palliative care. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:51.160 Some people feel just having that control was sufficient for them, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.320 so they don't choose to proceed. But there's also the 0:09:55.400 --> 0:10:01.440 other factors, as I was mentioning before, hostility and obfuscation 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.920 from doctors when asked. You know, there's a fine line 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.600 between conscientious objection, which the law allows as it should, 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.240 and conscientious obstruction. I spoke to a man in Sydney 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.720 last year who died of cancer, who had been told 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.640 by his doctors he had between three and six months 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.360 to live, which has legally made him eligible for VAD, 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.560 But when he asked them to support his application, they 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.120 just stonebaarded it and they stonewalled him for months, and 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.680 he got to a point where in tears he said 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:36.520 to his oncologist, I'm dying, Please, I need this information. 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.880 And at the end they gave him the information and 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:43.000 he immediately switched to somebody that would support his case. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.840 And when you consider the fact that the Catholic Church 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.400 still provides a lot of Australian health care and is 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:53.280 deeply opposed to VOD, they describe it as intrinsically evil. 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.960 They are concerned with that are center support VAD that 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.040 will affect their career prospects, and when you have, as 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:03.079 I said Archbishop Anthony Fisher describing VAD doctors as kill teams, 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.360 you get a sense of how that pressure might flow 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.760 through to people that may support VAD within the Catholic 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.880 health system. We're afraid to say. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:15.080 So, Andrew, your organization go gentle. Australia is campaigning for 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.520 telehealth to be an option for patients who want to 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.000 go through this process. Why do you think that's so important. 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.400 Well, it's a matter of equity. Really, Not all sick 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.120 people live near a doctor. Not all sick people live 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.560 near a hospital. The problem with telehealth it's a strange 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.320 one really because it refers to a think of the 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.200 Commonwealth Criminal Code and it's an amendment that was written 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.120 in two thousand and five, long before our VAD laws existed, 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.480 saying that it's illegal to use a carriage service to 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.240 encourage or assist in suicide. But as I mentioned before, 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.400 state's law and leading suicide preventional organizations do not see 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.199 VAD as suicide. They have different things. However, this law 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.000 has been interpreted in different states to mean that doctor 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.640 can't use telehealth or zoom or email or even a 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:08.360 text to discuss or advise at parts of the VAT process. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:11.440 In some states they have to use snail mail to 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.200 send a prescription, so it's a very anormalous law which 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.959 should have nothing to do with VAD and everybody from 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.920 the state's attorney's generals to health ministers to the AMA 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.640 has petitioned the Federal Attorney General, Michelle Roland to fix 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.840 this law. It's a pretty easy fix, you just remove 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.320 VAD from the definition of suicide and the law. But 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.719 complete silence. I find it hard to understand. The Prime 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.840 Minister has always been supportive of this law. He came 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:38.920 to the launcher go Gentle at the National Press Club 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.679 a decade ago. It's caused unnecessary harmon and it's difficult 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.760 to understand why the government won't act on what is 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:46.040 a relatively easy fix. 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.480 Andrew, you've been campaigning for this for so long now 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.840 and you've achieved so much, But what is really the 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.960 ultimate goal and where do you want Australia to be 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.200 on this issue over the next five to ten years. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.240 Well, I would like to see first of all, just 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:08.160 VAD normalized as a compassionate person centered part of end 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.360 of life care. I would like it to be thought 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.360 of in exactly the same breath as palliative care. You know, 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.120 it's interesting that eighty percent of the people choose bad 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.360 are also in palliative care. These things are all part 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.280 of the same discussion. And I do have a real 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:26.360 question about taxpayer funded health care facilities which obviously have 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:31.840 a faith basis, denying legal care to taxpayers in their care. 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:33.880 I think that's a real issue, and I think we 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.600 need to look at the laws of the governess. You know, 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.800 currently VAD doctors they have no peak organization, there's no 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:45.240 government support for their needs, for instance, remuneration. So I'd 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.200 like to see them support it. And you know, I 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.200 think that John lennonsong, whatever gets you through the night, 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.360 whether it's VAD or palliative care, or your faith or 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.760 none of the above, these should be all uncontested its paces. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.680 They should be supported. If your faith tells you that 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:06.720 that is not something you want to be involved in, 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.880 I completely support you right not to be involved. But 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.240 our laws should recognize that this is legal and that 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:17.199 people should not be allowed to stand in the way 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:20.720 of it. Newsflash, We're all going to die, and we 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.520 all want to be taken care of as best we can. 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.480 When we die. And that's my dream that this is 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.600 an uncontested thing for all Australians wherever they live, no 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:31.480 matter their faith, no matter their beliefs. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.640 Andrew, it's an important topic and thank you so much 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:38.920 for speaking with this about it. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.320 Thanks, Nicole, really appreciate it. 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.920 Also in the news, the federal governments release draft laws 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.520 aimed at forcing e tech companies to pay for Australian 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:07.240 news published on their platforms. Under the proposed news Bargaining incentive, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.720 platforms like Meta, Google and TikTok would face attacks of 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.040 two point twenty five percent of their Australian revenue if 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.920 they don't strike commercial deals with news publishers. The government 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.080 says the law is designed to fix gaps in the 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.480 existing bargaining code after platforms were able to avoid payments 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.560 by pulling back from news, and is expected to raise 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.160 up to two hundred and fifty million dollars a year, 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.040 and a UK parliamentary inquiry has cast out on the 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.520 country's ability to develop and deliver nuclear submarines promised as 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:43.040 part of the Orcist Defence packed. The deal, estimated to 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.760 cost up to three hundred and sixty eight billion dollars, 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.760 is meant to deliver Australia its first US built submarines 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:54.160 by the early twenty thirties, before delivering British designed submarines 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.440 within the same decade, but the House of Commons Defense 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:02.840 Committee says decades of underfunding, workforce shortages and low submarine 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:07.160 availability in Britain could derail the plan. I'm Nicole Johnston 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.480 and this is seven a m. Thanks for listening.