WEBVTT - Read This: Louise Milligan Wears Her Heart on Her Sleeve

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, it's Ruby Jones. Each Sunday, we're sharing one

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<v Speaker 1>of our favorite episodes from our sister podcast, Read This.

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<v Speaker 1>The show features interviews with some of the best and

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<v Speaker 1>most beloved writers from Australia and around the world. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to hear from star investigative reporter Louise Milligan,

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<v Speaker 1>who's discussing her first novel, The Pheasant's Nest. Michael Williams

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<v Speaker 1>is the host of Read This, and he's with me. Now, Hi, Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>how are.

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<v Speaker 2>You, Ruby Jones.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm very well. How are you?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm great?

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>So I imagine that most of our listeners will be

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<v Speaker 1>more familiar with Louise Milligan's work as an investigative reporter,

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<v Speaker 1>So just as a refresher, can you remind us of

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<v Speaker 1>the true stories that she became famous for telling?

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, lou Milligan is really one of the country's most

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<v Speaker 3>celebrated storytellers and it's her work for Four Corners and

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<v Speaker 3>more widely for the ABC. Is always kind of investigative

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<v Speaker 3>in nature and always deeply compassionate about the name nature

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<v Speaker 3>of victims of crime. It's one of her kind of watchwords.

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<v Speaker 3>People might know her in particular for her book Cardinal,

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<v Speaker 3>which won the Walkley Book Award, and that was her

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<v Speaker 3>telling the George Pell story. And then she followed that

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<v Speaker 3>up with another book called Witness, which was shining a

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<v Speaker 3>light on the experience and pain of victim survivors going

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<v Speaker 3>through our broken legal system. And in both of those,

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<v Speaker 3>as in her journalism, she showed that she is the

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<v Speaker 3>kind of expert chronicler of what it is to give

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<v Speaker 3>voice to the voiceless when it comes to crime in

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<v Speaker 3>our society.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, tell me a little bit about this first novel,

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<v Speaker 1>The Pheasant's Nest and what someone like Louise can bring

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<v Speaker 1>to the crime fiction genre.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, all those qualities do come to bear in her

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<v Speaker 3>first novel. Maybe the biggest surprise is how good she

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<v Speaker 3>is and the kind of propulsiveness that you want from

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<v Speaker 3>a good crime novel. You know, this is a book

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<v Speaker 3>that does tell the story of a broken criminal justice system,

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<v Speaker 3>does draw heavily on her journalistic experience and the conversation

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<v Speaker 3>she's had with people touched by crime. But the book's

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<v Speaker 3>a real romp, like, it's a real page turner, and

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<v Speaker 3>that's one of the nicest things. And to hear her

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<v Speaker 3>describe it, that impulse that compulsion to tell a good

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<v Speaker 3>story is one hundred percent of product of an Irish

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<v Speaker 3>Catholic upbringing.

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<v Speaker 1>And I should mention that this episode it does mention

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<v Speaker 1>sexual assault, so please take care while listening. Coming up

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<v Speaker 1>in just a moment, Louise Milligan wears her heart on

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<v Speaker 1>her sleeve.

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<v Speaker 4>I remember when I sort of came of age. I

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<v Speaker 4>suppose my mum is one of eleven, you know, the

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<v Speaker 4>full Irish Catholic catastrophe. So mum was the third oldest,

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<v Speaker 4>and the three older girls were each given younger children

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<v Speaker 4>to look after because Nana just couldn't look after all

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<v Speaker 4>the kids. And the third youngest, Michael, was always a

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<v Speaker 4>really sort of interesting person, and he was a fitter

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<v Speaker 4>and turner. He sort of left school, you know, none

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<v Speaker 4>of them went to university or anything like that, very

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<v Speaker 4>working class and whatever. But he went to America on

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<v Speaker 4>a soccer scholarship and he ended up studying literature in

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<v Speaker 4>New York, and he really sort of started off My

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<v Speaker 4>love of Irish literature got me into Joyce and Yates

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<v Speaker 4>and me I was already into Oscar Wild because I

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<v Speaker 4>was a fan of the Smiths.

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<v Speaker 2>So good.

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<v Speaker 3>I was like a good gateway drug.

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<v Speaker 2>Total gateway drug.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, one of those people who sat on the floor

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<v Speaker 4>of nightclubs, you know, pale makeup and black clothes and

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<v Speaker 4>reading Oscar Wild very seriously.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the things about a big family like that

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<v Speaker 3>is the importance of telling stories. And one of the

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<v Speaker 3>words that I most hate when journalists use it, but

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<v Speaker 3>actually is most fitting for that kind of storytelling is

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<v Speaker 3>a yarm like the idea of yarning being a really

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<v Speaker 3>important way of connecting with other people. Has that always

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<v Speaker 3>been the way for you?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, absolutely, absolutely in Irish culture, but also Scottish culture,

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<v Speaker 4>so my dad is Scottish and being able to be

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<v Speaker 4>a good storyteller and a good singer as well are

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<v Speaker 4>really important things in those cultures and you're brought up

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<v Speaker 4>with it. And actually as a television journalist, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>I always say, if you can get an Irish person

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<v Speaker 4>into a story, you're going to be fine. They don't

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<v Speaker 4>have that, you know, classically understated taciturn thing that Australians

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<v Speaker 4>often have. You know, Australians have that sort of tall, poppy,

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<v Speaker 4>don't talk yourself up kind of vibe, whereas Irish people

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<v Speaker 4>just just want to talk to you, you know, and

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<v Speaker 4>joke telling, and you know all of that is like

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<v Speaker 4>a huge part of the culture.

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<v Speaker 3>And putting yourself out there is absolutely fine. I'm like

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<v Speaker 3>the Australian thing where you know that we respect the circumspect,

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<v Speaker 3>the laconic that, oh I don't care too much or

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not going to kind of be full wrote it,

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<v Speaker 3>and there was something nice about a tradition that says,

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<v Speaker 3>if something's funny, laugh loud, and if it's sad, have

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<v Speaker 3>a good cry.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely and also a culture where you know, at the

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<v Speaker 4>end of the night everyone gets up and has their

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<v Speaker 4>turn to sing. You know, you just would never do

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<v Speaker 4>that in a stay there.

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<v Speaker 3>I think four corners would be improved if at the

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<v Speaker 3>end of the episode you had to belt out a number.

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<v Speaker 4>Look, I have to tell you, Michael, I'm not bad

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<v Speaker 4>at a show too.

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<v Speaker 3>I have no doubt. I suspect that when those cameras

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<v Speaker 3>go off, there's a bit going on there. I'm curious

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<v Speaker 3>about the relationship between, for lack of a better word,

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<v Speaker 3>repression of one's voluble nature, one's show tunes, one's storytelling

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<v Speaker 3>on the one hand, and the role that plays. I

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<v Speaker 3>guess in a career like journalism, where you want to

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<v Speaker 3>be taken seriously, where you want to be trusted, where

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<v Speaker 3>being authoritative relies on gravitas. And I'm curious about whether

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<v Speaker 3>that's something that you felt constrained by as you've come

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<v Speaker 3>up in your career.

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<v Speaker 4>I am not a journalist who you know, is very

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<v Speaker 4>serious all the time. I do wear my heart on

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<v Speaker 4>my sleeve, and I think that that enables me to

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<v Speaker 4>empathize with people. And you know, people have often said

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<v Speaker 4>to me, how do you get these people over the line?

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<v Speaker 4>You know? Sometimes I've had situations where I've secured interviews

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<v Speaker 4>with people who were being offered money by the commercials,

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<v Speaker 4>And how do you do that? Just by being decent

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<v Speaker 4>and kind? So yeah, I mean, I think that stereotype

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<v Speaker 4>of the journalist who doesn't show anything it is a

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<v Speaker 4>very male idea and it's not who I am.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that something that you had to learn to have

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<v Speaker 3>the confidence in for yourself? Though? I mean, I imagine coming

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<v Speaker 3>up through things like cadet chips and then newsrooms that

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<v Speaker 3>very masculinous tradition, those kind of expectations and constraints, there

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<v Speaker 3>would have been attempts to impose them on you, even

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<v Speaker 3>if you're resistant them.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, there was certainly an idea that don't get ahead

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<v Speaker 4>of yourself Milligan, you know, like and I actually thought

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<v Speaker 4>think that was quite good in a way, because when

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<v Speaker 4>I was coming through journalism, I did a law degree,

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<v Speaker 4>and a lot of the people who started around the

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<v Speaker 4>same time as me did, and those people who had

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<v Speaker 4>been high achievers at school and that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 4>But that doesn't necessarily make you a good journal Being

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<v Speaker 4>a good journal you have to have humility, and any

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<v Speaker 4>sense of having tickets on yourself was absolutely beaten out

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<v Speaker 4>of you. And so I quite liked that. And I

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<v Speaker 4>think some of the things that happened back then you

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<v Speaker 4>couldn't get away with now in terms of managers. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>there'd be complaints to HR. But it made you, i

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<v Speaker 4>don't know, not have an overinflated sense of your place

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<v Speaker 4>in the world, you know, especially when I wouldn't. This

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't apply to me, but a lot of the people

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<v Speaker 4>who were coming through, because they were people, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>with law degrees and who were high achievers at schools

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<v Speaker 4>and stuff like that, they were coming from private schools,

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<v Speaker 4>They were coming from quite a lot of privilege, with

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<v Speaker 4>an expectation that, you know, life is going to go

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<v Speaker 4>pretty well for them, whereas the generation before us were

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<v Speaker 4>people who often didn't go to university, had done cadetships,

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<v Speaker 4>were sort of hard drinking, smoking, you know, sort of

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<v Speaker 4>like you know, getting the yarns sort of people. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>and I think it was a good balance for my generation.

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<v Speaker 3>I do think there's a lot in that notion you

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<v Speaker 3>mentioned of humility and the relationship between humility and being

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<v Speaker 3>a custodian of other people's stories. I mean, a big

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<v Speaker 3>part of what makes you one of the countries foremost

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<v Speaker 3>journalists in your books of nonfiction really kind of capture

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<v Speaker 3>this is the ways in which you've honed your craft

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<v Speaker 3>to take other people's stories and find ways to honor them,

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<v Speaker 3>to do them justice, and to connect them with a readership.

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<v Speaker 3>And that challenge of believing in your own value in

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<v Speaker 3>terms of being in the room and being able to

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<v Speaker 3>do it, but knowing how to be sent to yourself

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<v Speaker 3>seems to me to be at the heart of what

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<v Speaker 3>you do. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, my parents are the most decent people that

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<v Speaker 4>you ever want to meet. My dad is a classic

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<v Speaker 4>social justice Catholic, and they will give you the clothes

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<v Speaker 4>off their back. They will do anything to help someone

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<v Speaker 4>and That's what I was sort of brought up with.

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<v Speaker 4>And I've always been attracted to telling the stories of

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<v Speaker 4>people who are otherwise voiceless, people who don't have all

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<v Speaker 4>the privileges that I have, and particularly people who have been,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, victims of one sort of trauma or another,

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<v Speaker 4>giving them the ability to have a voice, but in

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<v Speaker 4>a very respectful way and in an empathetic way.

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<v Speaker 3>How much of making the move to fiction was about

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<v Speaker 3>an escape, about telling a propulsive story, and how much

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<v Speaker 3>of it was shining a light, as you have in

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<v Speaker 3>your journalism, on the ways in which these stories aren't told,

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<v Speaker 3>or the gaps that exist in the way that they're told.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I definitely wanted to write the story from the

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<v Speaker 4>point of view of the victim, survivor. I didn't write

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<v Speaker 4>this as crime fiction. I just wrote the books that

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<v Speaker 4>I wanted to write. And I guess it has a

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<v Speaker 4>crime in it, so it's sort of slightly in the

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<v Speaker 4>crime fiction category. But a lot of crime fiction, the

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<v Speaker 4>often female victim is sort of disembodied almost we don't

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<v Speaker 4>really know much about her, and it's about the police,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's about the twists and turns and all of

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<v Speaker 4>that sort of thing. I wanted to kind of subvert

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<v Speaker 4>that and to make the survivor at the center, because

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<v Speaker 4>I have through my work spoken to hundreds of survivors

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<v Speaker 4>of sexual crimes, and I didn't want them to be

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<v Speaker 4>a victim in the sense of someone that you just

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<v Speaker 4>kind of feel sorry for. I wanted her to be strong. So,

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<v Speaker 4>for instance, she absolutely hates her kidnapper. She thinks he's

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<v Speaker 4>a complete idiot, and that sense of annoyance actually gives

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<v Speaker 4>her some power, and it also gives her the opportunity

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<v Speaker 4>to kind of use her gallows humor, which has got

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<v Speaker 4>her buy as a journalist and which gets us all

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<v Speaker 4>by as journalists. And so you know, that comes into

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<v Speaker 4>the book quite a bit. So I guess that definitely

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<v Speaker 4>informed what I was doing. I first started writing this

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<v Speaker 4>book back in twenty fifteen, and that was not that

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<v Speaker 4>long after I had covered the case of Jill Maher,

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<v Speaker 4>the Irish Australian woman who worked at the ABC was

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<v Speaker 4>not a journalist but was tragically murdered. And I had

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<v Speaker 4>been the first person to interview Jill's husband, Tom, who

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<v Speaker 4>was a lovely guy, and there was some suspicion around

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<v Speaker 4>Tom at the start, and I was thinking about writing

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<v Speaker 4>a novel about what if Jill Maher didn't die? And

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<v Speaker 4>I think part of that was because I was so

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<v Speaker 4>affected by her death, like so many people were in Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 4>She had that ultimate sense of being someone that everyone

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<v Speaker 4>could relate to, and so it was almost, in some

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<v Speaker 4>ways a bit of a tribute to her and to

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<v Speaker 4>Tom and to her family. And then I got really

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<v Speaker 4>caught up with my journalism and basically I wrote three chapters,

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<v Speaker 4>put it away for seven years, wrote my first book, Cardinal,

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<v Speaker 4>my second book, Witness. You know, got sued by the

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<v Speaker 4>Attorney General.

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<v Speaker 2>The list goes on as.

0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.000
<v Speaker 3>A new standard couple of years in anyone's life.

0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.560
<v Speaker 4>They've all been there, got a cross examined by Robert Richter,

0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.880
<v Speaker 4>you know, all of those things. Seven years went by,

0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:47.360
<v Speaker 4>and then I came back to it when I was

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.400
<v Speaker 4>at a time where I was feeling quite low and

0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:56.880
<v Speaker 4>I needed another I needed an outlet, and this novel

0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:58.640
<v Speaker 4>really became therapy for me.

0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.760
<v Speaker 3>When we return, Louise reveals how her work as an

0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 3>investigative journalist informs the characters in her novel We'll be

0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 3>right back. Tell me about Kate Delaney. She's the main

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 3>character of your debut novel, Pheasant's Nest, And I'm really

0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.720
<v Speaker 3>keen to dig into the idea about whether it's liberating

0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.840
<v Speaker 3>to work in fiction or whether it's just a separate

0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.520
<v Speaker 3>set of challenges. And I want to start with Kate

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.680
<v Speaker 3>because she is someone who's biographical details. It's a world

0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.160
<v Speaker 3>you know very well, so you're able to illustrate a

0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:44.880
<v Speaker 3>number of things very efficiently.

0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean, she is like me, an Irish Australian journalist.

0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:54.120
<v Speaker 4>She's a newspaper journalist. She's not me. She has very

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.199
<v Speaker 4>much her own character. She's an only child who has

0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 4>lost her parents. She's someone and this I really relate

0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:07.520
<v Speaker 4>to being a migrant as a small child. There's a

0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.439
<v Speaker 4>sense of being an outsider, a misfit, especially as sort

0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:15.880
<v Speaker 4>of a bookish one, and that creates a grit in her.

0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.320
<v Speaker 4>And also she has this mother who really sort of

0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.720
<v Speaker 4>wants the best for her, and for instance, every morning

0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.600
<v Speaker 4>lays out all the newspapers on the table like a

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 4>general with maps, and you know, plunks her in front

0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 4>of the ABC and wants this only child to be someone.

0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.400
<v Speaker 4>And she's someone who's had some traumas, but she's someone

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.720
<v Speaker 4>with a really really big heart. And a big personality.

0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.520
<v Speaker 4>When she walks into a room, you can't help but

0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:48.480
<v Speaker 4>notice her. But sometimes that puts people off as well.

0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.240
<v Speaker 4>She's not perfect by any means. She can be quite

0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:55.800
<v Speaker 4>a snob, but she's endearing. I wanted to create a

0:14:55.880 --> 0:15:00.040
<v Speaker 4>character that was really unforgettable, that people really wanted the

0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.120
<v Speaker 4>best for. And the same applies to her boyfriend, Liam,

0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.480
<v Speaker 4>who is a medical negligence lawyer who she's met on

0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.720
<v Speaker 4>a story. They are both people who were misfits on

0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.920
<v Speaker 4>the playground. They are talking, but they're sort of like

0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 4>endearing at the same time, they're sort of Yeah. I

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.280
<v Speaker 4>just wanted people to care about these characters, and you know,

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.080
<v Speaker 4>at the end of the book wish that they were

0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.320
<v Speaker 4>still in the reader's life.

0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:32.120
<v Speaker 3>Often journals make the leap to fiction not very well badly. Yes, yeah, no,

0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to be honest. Yeah. And I was trying

0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 3>to think about what worked for me so well in

0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.520
<v Speaker 3>your novel and and made you the exception to that rule.

0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 3>One of the things is character and detail and minor character.

0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.760
<v Speaker 3>I think often there's something a little functional about the

0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.560
<v Speaker 3>way characterization happens in a novel from someone who's not

0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.960
<v Speaker 3>used to thinking in those terms, and there's something about

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.440
<v Speaker 3>the humanity of even the kind of brief walk on

0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:03.000
<v Speaker 3>roles that you do. You have not to be reductive,

0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 3>but a good cop and a bad cop in the

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.680
<v Speaker 3>course of the novel, or one who is held back

0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:13.280
<v Speaker 3>from doing his job well because of his personal failings

0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.360
<v Speaker 3>as a character, and another one who is doing his

0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.920
<v Speaker 3>job well despite the trauma that he's seen. And that

0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.640
<v Speaker 3>kind of detail and character seems really important to you.

0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, I think with both of those cops. The

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:34.240
<v Speaker 4>cop who fails, he does so for sort of the

0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:38.640
<v Speaker 4>right reasons, in a way. He has been watching domestic

0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:44.120
<v Speaker 4>violence play out in technicolor detail in his work for years.

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.840
<v Speaker 4>He's a gay man who loves his sisters and his

0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 4>mother and loves women and is absolutely horrified by the

0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.880
<v Speaker 4>way that men feel that they can do terrible things

0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:05.160
<v Speaker 4>to women, and so he lands on Liam, the boyfriend.

0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.280
<v Speaker 4>He also finds Liam, you know, he's a bit of

0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.040
<v Speaker 4>a hipster. He finds him annoying. This guy's a cop.

0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:15.280
<v Speaker 4>He's like very sort of straight laced, and he just yeah, So.

0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.439
<v Speaker 3>That's the thing, the pettiness and the spite, which is

0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.960
<v Speaker 3>absolutely accurate. We all do it. Snap judgments whatever. Yeah,

0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.760
<v Speaker 3>but the way in which you demonstrate that despite not

0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 3>being a bad cop per se, not being a bad person,

0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.160
<v Speaker 3>but just being a human being, means that he doesn't

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:31.520
<v Speaker 3>do his job well.

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.440
<v Speaker 4>He doesn't do it well. And then the other one,

0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:38.400
<v Speaker 4>Peter Dan Brosio, he is based on, you know, snatches

0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.639
<v Speaker 4>of a lot of police that I have worked with

0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:47.520
<v Speaker 4>who have PTSD, and his PTSD is quite crippling, to

0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.560
<v Speaker 4>the point where he has to go off work on sick,

0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.800
<v Speaker 4>as he calls it, for a while. And to some extent,

0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:57.280
<v Speaker 4>he's slightly based on a police officer that I knew

0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.560
<v Speaker 4>who got to the point where he was putting tinfoil

0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.199
<v Speaker 4>on his windows because the insurance company would film him

0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.000
<v Speaker 4>when he went outside to the bins and so on.

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 4>They were trying to prove that he was not really injured.

0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.960
<v Speaker 4>But he's also a very soft character. And having got

0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:15.919
<v Speaker 4>to know a lot of police, they often get a

0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.359
<v Speaker 4>bad rap, you know, they're often put into a box

0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.240
<v Speaker 4>about what sort of person is a police officer. And

0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.280
<v Speaker 4>I have spent a lot of time with police at

0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.040
<v Speaker 4>their most vulnerable, and they they're the sort of people

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 4>who they are incredibly loyal. So if you help them,

0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:39.239
<v Speaker 4>they will remember for years. They will lay out the

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 4>red carpet for you for years as a journalist. But

0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.680
<v Speaker 4>I guess a lot of people don't really understand them.

0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.440
<v Speaker 4>And it's very kind of lonely. And that's sort of

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.639
<v Speaker 4>what's happening with this guy. And his life is just

0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.800
<v Speaker 4>really sort of unraveling. You know. He finds himself having

0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.600
<v Speaker 4>a lap dance with a stripper who's got dental braces

0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 4>and black roots and blonde hair, and he sleeps on

0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.639
<v Speaker 4>the couch at work and there are two minute noodles

0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.760
<v Speaker 4>stuck down the side of the couch and he's really

0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:14.480
<v Speaker 4>just existing. But what I wanted with him was someone

0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:19.159
<v Speaker 4>who just needed to get a win, and he just

0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.359
<v Speaker 4>wants to find Kate Delaney. And because and I mean,

0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:25.439
<v Speaker 4>this was something that I could sort of inject my

0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 4>knowledge of journalism. Because Kate Delaney is a journalist in

0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.359
<v Speaker 4>this sort of media kind of conception of celebrity, the

0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.199
<v Speaker 4>crime media conception of celebrity. She goes from being a

0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:45.119
<v Speaker 4>sort of a moderately well known newspaper reporter to a beautiful,

0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.160
<v Speaker 4>like one of Australia's most well known journalists.

0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.440
<v Speaker 3>Of course, the story's custom made one of us, one.

0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.000
<v Speaker 4>Of us, and if one of us is missing, then

0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.520
<v Speaker 4>you know, the police commissioners saying to Dan Brosio, you

0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.800
<v Speaker 4>better bloody find this woman because this is going to

0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.040
<v Speaker 4>be a disaster. You know, it's in the papers every day,

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.399
<v Speaker 4>and that all the slickly presented commercial television reporters are

0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:12.520
<v Speaker 4>doing breathless live crosses about it, and it's this sort

0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:16.240
<v Speaker 4>of race against time, and he is feeling that so keenly.

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.240
<v Speaker 3>The books ondenly just come out, so maybe too soon,

0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:25.640
<v Speaker 3>But do you think about the various cops of your aquaintance, lawyers, journalists,

0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.360
<v Speaker 3>victim survivors who are going to read this and be

0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:34.080
<v Speaker 3>spotting themselves on the pages or looking for the shadows

0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:35.440
<v Speaker 3>and echoes of their own stories.

0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.560
<v Speaker 4>Look, I am sort of a magpie and so I'm

0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.240
<v Speaker 4>pulling little bits and pieces from places. There is only

0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.399
<v Speaker 4>one person in the book who is an actual person,

0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.680
<v Speaker 4>and she's now dead, and that was my great maternal

0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.639
<v Speaker 4>Auntie Chrissy. But she's called Auntie Maggie in the book.

0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:56.160
<v Speaker 4>She's pretty much exactly as she was Apart from her.

0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:59.959
<v Speaker 4>Everyone else they have elements, but they're not the person.

0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.320
<v Speaker 3>Would Kate Delaney at the end of the night belt

0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:04.199
<v Speaker 3>out show tunes.

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:07.200
<v Speaker 4>I think she probably would.

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:09.280
<v Speaker 3>And what would her go to be.

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:15.320
<v Speaker 4>I mean, my go to is doun Ka Shane by

0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:16.880
<v Speaker 4>Wayne Newton, very.

0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.000
<v Speaker 3>Strong, good, that's you, that's your inner Ferispuela right there one.

0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:23.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think she'd probably like that too.

0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.120
<v Speaker 3>I can see you swinging the microphone with Gusto.

0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.640
<v Speaker 2>That's don't even get me started.

0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:33.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm very tempted. I'm tempted to try it, like cue

0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.320
<v Speaker 3>up the track, get it going, We're gonna This is

0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:40.480
<v Speaker 3>a book about many serious and difficult things and horrible things,

0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.600
<v Speaker 3>but at the same time, there's still room for Luise

0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.919
<v Speaker 3>milligand to have a song, and that's pretty important. Holding

0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.720
<v Speaker 3>those two things is equally true.

0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Adaman, Look, one of the things that I was

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.440
<v Speaker 4>really really wanting to do was have a lot of

0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 4>levity in the book, because you know, I didn't want

0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 4>it to be a punish I wanted it to be

0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:04.560
<v Speaker 4>a book. Book that doesn't patronize the reader, that is intelligent,

0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:09.560
<v Speaker 4>but at the same time it isn't painful to read.

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.119
<v Speaker 3>And know you're going again like you've got the fiction bug.

0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:16.679
<v Speaker 3>You can't resistant In the same world.

0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:22.480
<v Speaker 4>I am writing a second book and it is partially

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:25.960
<v Speaker 4>set in Ireland and it is connected.

0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:26.800
<v Speaker 3>Excellent.

0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:29.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so I'm really excited about it.

0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:36.840
<v Speaker 3>Louise Mulligan's first novel, Pheasants Next, is widely available now.

0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:44.679
<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much for listening to another special episode of

0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.760
<v Speaker 1>Read This. Join us each Sunday to hear our favorite

0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:51.040
<v Speaker 1>interviews from the show. Listen out for upcoming conversations with

0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.360
<v Speaker 1>Malcolm Knox and Mary Beard. And if you don't want

0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:56.480
<v Speaker 1>to wait until next Sunday to dive in to Read This,

0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:02.399
<v Speaker 1>you can search for it wherever you listen to podcasts