WEBVTT - How to solve the youth crime crisis in Alice Springs 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:10.520 From Schwartz Media on Daniel James. This is seven am. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.640 Alice Springs is making headlines for all the wrong reasons. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.480 Violent crimes committed by young people, including a recent shocking 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:19.640 attack on a woman and a two month old baby, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.799 have left the town shaken. The baby has suffered a 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.320 brain bleed and a fractured skull, and there are now 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:28.240 big questions about how to keep the community safe, what 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.280 justice should look like, and why crimes like this happen 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.960 at all. Today are under woman Catherine Wittele, CEO of SNAKE, 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.640 the national body representing Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander children, 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.879 on the underlying issues wreaking havoc on the streets of 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.400 Alice Springs and what can be done to address the 0:00:45.440 --> 0:01:02.760 youth crime crisis. It's Wednesday, December eighteenth. Catherine, thanks so 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.000 much for joining us. You're an arund A woman, you 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.280 live in Alice Springs. What's it like living there at 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:10.679 the moment? 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:11.280 Yeah? 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.360 Look, Ella Springs is my home and I'm not only Arunda, 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:16.800 I'm in Bundarinya belonging to Ellis Springs. 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:21.400 I'm a to I think most people from. 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.760 Alice Springs right now would be having a bit of 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.480 trouble finding the right word. Everyone's feeling distressed, but distressed 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:34.360 doesn't quite capture the distress we feel about the recent assaults. 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.319 There's an urgent cry for help tonight after the bashing 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.160 of a two month old baby who's been airlifted to 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.440 the Women's and Children's hospital with a skull fracture. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:46.039 The infant was in her mother's arms at their home 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.960 and Alice Springs when the pair was allegedly attacked by 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.280 two teenage thugs with an iron bar. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.880 It's the latest in a string of violent incidents in 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.520 Alice Springs in recent weeks, including the alleged rape of 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.520 a woman on Saturday night while she was sleeping. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.720 It's unacceptable that we're seeing a baby flown to hospital 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.239 with a broken skull. It's unacceptable that people were breaking 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:13.000 to that home in the first place. It's unacceptable that 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:15.880 a woman can be in her own home and be 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.800 sexually assaulted, and that those events have happened. And for 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.840 all of us that live in Alice Springs, we feel 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.920 great distress for that. And I think all of us 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:29.120 are thinking about those two cases and feeling it in 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:29.639 our guts. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:30.760 We feel it in our guts. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.120 Can you just tell me what it feels like on 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.160 the streets and in the homes of people there at 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:39.520 the moment. 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.440 Ah, Look, there's no doubt that when you go to 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:44.320 bed at night, you know, you check your doors a 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.359 little closer, when you read the papers, when you get 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.959 onto your social media, you're sort of bracing to see. 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:52.920 What might come next. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.360 And when we think about how close we are to 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.480 all of those events, you know, one of them happened 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.600 two doors down from my daughter, and I know that 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.600 in recent weeks, you know, she's been broken into twice. 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:08.680 So this is really close to home for everyone who 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.639 lives in Alice Springs. We all know someone who has 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.880 been a victim of crime. But I think a lot 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.200 of us also know that the current approaches aren't working. 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:19.760 They're not working. 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.960 And it was crime in the territory, particularly in Alice Springs, 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:28.359 that the new NTCLP government campaigned around fixing and they 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.000 won in the landslide in August. So what have they 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:32.600 done since then to address it? 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:33.000 Oh? 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.920 Look, I think what we've heard is that it's hard 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:39.320 to do. It's even hard to talk about. 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.120 To be perfectly honest, what we've heard is that things 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:46.920 like spithoods are now back in legislation and spitthoods are 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:48.960 used as instruments of torture. 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:53.400 A controversial restraint and in anty youth prison since a 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.680 landmark royal commission that could come back into youth if 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.480 the country Liberal party wins the next. 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.280 We have to be really honest about this. Our communities 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:08.280 voted for this to happen. Our communities voted that children 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:13.160 as young as ten in juvenile detention can be restrained 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.720 and have spit hoods applied. 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.560 When those hoods are applied. 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:20.279 We know that something is going really really wrong with 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.440 the behaviors of child in a detention center. We also 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.840 know that when children behave like that in a detention setting, 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:30.560 it's because they have no access to their parents or 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.280 the people that love them. The chances are that they 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.919 haven't had access to the supports and tools that they 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.840 might need. So we know in the Northern Territory, for example, 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:44.600 the majority of children in the detention center have significant 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.840 learning disabilities that were never identified and never responded to, 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.960 and they'refore the supports that they need aren't there, and 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.159 what you get is an extraordinary outburst of behaviors which 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.560 are really symptomatic of someone who is traumatized. The other 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.280 thing we've seen, of course, because I mentioned the age 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.599 of ten, was the lowering of the age of criminal responsibility. 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.279 Pre Liberal Party has promised to lure the age of 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:13.719 criminal responsibility from twelve to ten to four drunks into 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:19.279 mandetry alcohol rehabilitation. Now increasing the age to fourteen was 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.320 actually a recommendation of the Royal Commission into child detention 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.040 in the Northern Territory. It said, raise the age, get 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.599 rid of the spit hooods. So what we've seen is 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:34.240 that age of criminal responsibility going down again. The other 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.520 thing that we've heard that communities are incredibly distressed about 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.120 is in increasing the number of children that will be 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:46.680 put into juvenile detention settings. Those children, particularly from Central Australia, 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.680 will be moved up to the top end, so that's 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.200 thousands of kilometers away from their family, so it means 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.360 they will have no contact with their families while they 0:05:55.360 --> 0:06:00.440 are going through extraordinary hardship. And when I talk about 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.880 these things, I've got to be clear what we're not 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.200 saying that there shouldn't be punishment for criminal behavior. 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:07.120 No one's saying that. 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.200 Our first response has to be the law and order response. 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.040 There is no way around that. But the second thing 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.800 is we can't keep doing what we've been doing. And 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.880 what we're looking at has not happened overnight. It hasn't 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.599 happened in the last election cycle. It didn't happen in 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.560 the election cycle before that. It has been happening to 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.960 us for decades and decades and decades. We keep coming 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:33.239 up with the same responses and expecting a different outcome. 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.000 Coming up after the break. Why young people offend and 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:49.679 what could be done that will actually make a difference, Catherine. 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:51.960 The Police Commissioner Michael Murphy has said that the nature 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.560 of offending is changing our springs. Why do you think 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.080 we're seeing the level of violent crime at this point 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.320 similarly rise on the streets of other springs. 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:06.839 We keep treating crime with the same response. Increasing criminalization 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:12.040 increases crime. The younger you have contact with the criminal 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.560 justice system as opposed to a diversion system, the more 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.200 likely it is you are to be a repeat offender, 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.680 the more likely you are that those offenses will increase 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.560 in severity, and the more likely you are to have 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.760 ongoing contact with the justice system for the rest of 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:31.080 your life. And all those really terrible life outcomes that 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.560 are associated with that. You can read any criminal expert 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.560 in the world. They will tell you that when children 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.960 or young people or adults even are then returned to 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.600 the same environment and you haven't worked on what was 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.520 causing it, then you can expect a return in that behavior. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.480 And again, if you look at the event that resulted 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.840 in the harm of a baby and that involved two 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.240 young people, I'd put money on that at least one 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.800 of them, if not both of them, have had significant 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:03.600 contact with the child protection system. And when we see 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:08.600 these things, the immediate response is to punish parents, punish families. 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:13.360 When again, if you start unpacking what those system failures are, 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.760 the chances are that right at the beginning there was poverty. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.720 The other thing that I hear from mob on the 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:25.040 ground and is that people have been going to look 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.400 for help and saying, look, we're worried about this particular person, 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.480 and they say they do things like report it to police. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.040 Police respond to crime. They don't respond to a report 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.120 that someone's walking around. That's not their job. They respond 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:42.560 to crime. What we know again is nationally and internationally, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.160 the evidence shows if you have a diversionary response to this. 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.720 In actual fact, rather than punishing a crime that's already happened, 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:55.560 the criminal behavior or offending behaviors disappears in about seventy 0:08:55.600 --> 0:09:00.000 five some places, we'll talk about eighty five percent success rates. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.560 Actual fact, when you're talking about reducing crime, that is 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.080 the model of practice that has the most impact. 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.800 Can you tell me more about that, like what would 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.920 a diversionary program look like and what sort of diversionary 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.280 programs are effective in that part of the world. 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.920 If you're truly doing diversion right, it means that every 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.120 child has their own plan. So you've picked up that 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.960 maybe there's a child at risk, and you now have 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.280 to work out, well, what's going on in this child's life? 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.480 And again, poverty is going to be there, almost without fail, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:35.640 poverty is going to be there. Does this child have 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.000 somewhere to sleep? Has this child? Does this child need 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.040 some developmental screening? How do we ensure that we are 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:48.359 giving that child the support they need to handle external stimuli. 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.160 I heard a story the other day. 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.320 Actually, it's quite an extraordinary story, and it's a bit 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.560 of work done by the NPY Women's Counsel and Alice 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.560 Springs and they've gone out to Immunpa community and they've 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.120 said to the children out there, because you know, there's 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:10.600 a lot of people that have a lot of things 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.000 to say about our children in Central Australia, but not 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.559 a lot of room for their voices to be heard. 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.880 And they asked them, if you could have superheroes, what 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.000 would they look like. And the first thing they said 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.959 was May, which means food. So the first superhero these 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:31.400 children identified was food. The second superhero was in Ma, 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:36.440 So what is my Inma means dance song and they said, well, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.560 what do you need in MAA oh? Because inma makes 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.840 us feel happy and strong. And again, if you apply 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.640 what inma and song mean in a therapeutic model, they 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.200 are actually tools of healing, which this makes sense. The 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.200 third thing they identified was love. We need the love 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.400 of our families. We feel safe when we were in 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:59.000 our families. And the fourth one was jukopa, So that's 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.760 a law, law that tells you how to behave how 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.240 you might want to understand your environment, what you do 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.160 in an environment when you feel fearful, where you go 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:15.240 to for support. And then they said to them listen, 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:17.840 you might have heard about the other superheroes. Haven't you 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.640 like Superman and Spiderman? And oh, we know them, And 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.000 they said, would you like a superhero like that? And 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.720 so they started thinking about that as a superhero. And 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.520 one of the superheroes they came up with in that 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:32.040 frame was Regina. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:33.360 She's a cobweb girl. 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.600 And that particular superhero has the powers to throw her 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:42.360 net into Alice Springs to catch the naughty kids. And 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.520 again this is the language of children, to catch the 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.160 naughty kids in that net and then very quickly bring 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.120 them back home to the families that love them with 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:55.600 those other superheroes that they identified can care for them. 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.920 In that example, those children in the middle of the 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.920 who probably have English as a fourth or fifth language, 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.760 identified a hierarchy of needs. The other way that the 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.480 hierarchy of needs is described is you can see it 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.240 in the UN Convention. 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:16.000 On the Rights of the Child. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:20.400 Those children understput inherently what they needed to be successful 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.320 in life and the tools that were required in order 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.480 to respond to the world around them. Those are sorts 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.040 of things that when we're talking about a juvenile diversion tactic, 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.600 we need to be addressing and we need to be 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.720 putting that child's voice front and center in that so 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:37.480 we actually understand what's going on. 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.240 So, Catherine, Northern Territorians no better than anyone else that 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.560 the federal government can have a role to play in 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.600 that part of the world. What role should the Federal 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.080 government be playing in this response, if anything at all. 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:52.480 Oh, the truth of it is that what we're looking 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.959 at Nalla Springs is a system failure from all levels 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.640 of government. And there are three levels of government at 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.400 play in the Northern Territory. So the federal government they 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.480 hold the big leavers, that's where the bulk of the 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.880 money comes from. So the federal government really does need 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.160 to look at the need in the Northern Territory. A 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.240 lot of the work I work on relates to the 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.520 National Agreement on Closing the Gap, and one of the 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:19.240 fundamental calls in that is about shared decision making, talking 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.720 to your community about what it is they might actually need, 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.880 what is actually missing in your community. There's no point 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.040 in coming up with a program that was developed in 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.280 Sydney and applying it in the Bush. It's making sure 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.160 that your places, like the Northern Territory are getting the 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.760 funding that they need. Needs based funding for things like 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:44.199 domestic violence. That is an extraordinary driver of offending behaviors 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:45.760 because it drives. 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.560 Children out of the home. They don't feel safe in 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:48.040 their home. 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.559 It means looking at being innovative and actually saying, well, 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.920 what we're doing is failing. Let's listen more to community 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.640 voices and genuinely investing in community design to say, right now, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.800 what is it that you need, what is it that's happening, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:04.319 and how do we stop this happening. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.160 Catherine, thank you so much for your time. 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:10.480 Thank you. 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.120 A few months ago I traveled to Alice Springs to 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.080 take an in depth look at the crisis there. What 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.160 I found was that youth crime is a symptom of 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.600 a series of interventions big and small, into the lives 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.400 of Aboriginal people. To hear my three part report, search 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:40.640 this is Alice Springs wherever you listen to podcasts. Also 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.560 in the news today, a crackdown on protester writes and 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.560 a plan to bolster social cohesion will be part of 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.920 the Victorian government's response to the suspected terror attack on 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:54.480 the Addas Israel Synagogue. In a press conference, Victorian Premiatre 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.240 Cinta Allen said she has had enough of a protests 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.880 that have caused disruption in the state, and may leed 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.440 to outlaw protest in the vicinity of places of worship. 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.360 New South Wales is planning similar changes following a rally 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:12.640 outside the Great Synagogue earlier this month. And North Korean 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.520 troops sent to support Russia and their war against Ukraine 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.280 have been killed during combat. North Korea sent more than 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.520 ten thousand troops to the region, with about thirty now 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.840 killed in the battle in Russia's Cursed Border region, according 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.960 to the Ukraine's military intelligence agency. I'm Daniel James. This 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.400 is seven am. We'll be back with you tomorrow with 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:49.320 an on the ground report from Damascus in Syria.