Speaker 1: Yeah, just devastation four. You know, obviously myself, but all
Speaker 1: the other players that were essentially innocent, and then, as
Speaker 1: I said, they get you on a technicality that you
Speaker 1: weren't aware of, that's not even proven and you think, oh.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm John Ralph and I'm Glenn McFarlane.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Sacked, a podcast that explores what really happens
Speaker 3: when the ax falls in the AFL world. Will take
Speaker 3: you behind the scenes with some of the biggest names
Speaker 3: in football and find out how they found out their
Speaker 3: time was up and who pulled the trigger.
Speaker 4: Stuart Kramer's AFL career deserved more than just over one
Speaker 4: hundred games across three clubs, but injury and a year
Speaker 4: out of the game due to the Essendon drug saga
Speaker 4: took its toll on the big kid from Mary Burrough
Speaker 4: who had to fight to even play in the big
Speaker 4: time And really did any of Essendon's thirty four lose
Speaker 4: more than Cramrie due to the band Yes, Joe Watson
Speaker 4: was stripped of a Brown Low, but Cramery was forced
Speaker 4: to watch his by then Bulldog's teammates win a fairytale flag.
Speaker 4: In twenty sixteen, Stuey Kramrie.
Speaker 5: Thank you for joining us on the Sack podcast. Thank you, Ralphie.
Speaker 5: Thanks finally got me on the show.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so a country boy made good three AFL club
Speaker 3: Some highs, some lows. What do you think about when
Speaker 3: the head hits the plo about the soaring highs or
Speaker 3: some of the stetbacks of a pretty cool AFL career.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think the career is probably contrasting.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I had a really good start.
Speaker 1: The essendence stuff was probably you know, a bit of
Speaker 1: a low. Not not my fault. I don't think that's
Speaker 1: the stick, but I think, you know, people like talking
Speaker 1: about it, but that's understandable.
Speaker 5: But yeah, it is very contrasting.
Speaker 4: And you're one of the Essendon thirty four. Obviously we'll
Speaker 4: go into detail. How much of that saga defines your
Speaker 4: footy career. Is it something that's just part of your journey.
Speaker 5: I think it defines a football career, you know, greatly.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, there's other ones that missed out
Speaker 1: with things like Joe Watson and you know, got to
Speaker 1: think of those guys who miss Brownlow and I missed
Speaker 1: the Grand Final. But you know that's I think It's
Speaker 1: just part of my journey and I'm happy to talk
Speaker 1: about it now.
Speaker 5: And it's been over ten years and you know, glad
Speaker 5: to move on from it.
Speaker 1: But if someone can get something out of it, you know,
Speaker 1: from what happened, maybe that's a positive.
Speaker 3: How often you get reminded of it? Is it a
Speaker 3: daily occurrence? Is it something that pops into your head?
Speaker 3: It's you know, you're obviously pretty sanguin, pretty relaxed about
Speaker 3: a great foota career.
Speaker 5: I get reminded it probably once a month.
Speaker 2: Yeah, someone will speak to you. Yeah, someone will speak
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: So someone you know, want to talk or they will
Speaker 1: recognize me and they want to talk about it. But
Speaker 1: you know, I think they're coming from a passionate point
Speaker 1: of view of it as an Essence supporter purely, So
Speaker 1: it's not something that they think I've done something wrong,
Speaker 1: although the other guys did something wrong.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I suppose you feel for those Essident supporters
Speaker 4: who've gone through a hell of a lot in that
Speaker 4: journey as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're not having much success, but look, I
Speaker 1: all we want to do is do our best. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was just an unfortunate situation. I guess we'll escape goats.
Speaker 4: In the end, Raily, let's go back to a bit
Speaker 4: of aut care free existence when you growing up in
Speaker 4: marybarr And, you know, playing junior footing, and it was
Speaker 4: it right that you played in your brother's team when
Speaker 4: you were eight and it was under thirteens.
Speaker 2: You're obviously a big kid for a start.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they used to call me the tank.
Speaker 4: The tank.
Speaker 1: I think Dad liked it because he had to just
Speaker 1: go to one game and I said, yeah, I'm happy
Speaker 1: to play. So first couple of games, I've got a
Speaker 1: few goals, but I was vastly smaller than the rest
Speaker 1: of the players. But look that really helped me going
Speaker 1: forward and playing against better opposition.
Speaker 5: So Mary Burrow a couple of rejections early on.
Speaker 3: Take us through those first few years you played Maryborough seniors,
Speaker 3: you got to Ben and Obama's reserves.
Speaker 5: It's a been a hard slog.
Speaker 1: Though, Yeah, there was, and I think you build a
Speaker 1: resilience over the years and that helped me when I
Speaker 1: did get to Estenon. But I was really determined to
Speaker 1: try and make sure that I do play AFL. And
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people say, look, it's going
Speaker 1: to be too hard and I said, that's your opinion,
Speaker 1: but I think the setbacks really helped me going forward
Speaker 1: and starting from country football into the VFL too, and
Speaker 1: then VFL and then AFL.
Speaker 5: Look, it was a good journey. It was my journey,
Speaker 5: and I wouldn't have done any.
Speaker 4: Other way, just with those setbacks and missing out on
Speaker 4: REP teams and under eighteen's teams, and that clearly built
Speaker 4: the resilience that you were going to need later in
Speaker 4: your career. Did you ever think I'm not going to
Speaker 4: get there or were you just implicit in your mind
Speaker 4: this is going to be my journey.
Speaker 1: I didn't waver too much, and I just knew that
Speaker 1: I had the talent. I just didn't probably have the
Speaker 1: skill set just yet. And the more I played and
Speaker 1: played VFL and I started to learn from coaches like
Speaker 1: Adrian Hickmant, Matthew Knights and a few of those ones,
Speaker 1: I started to develop my skills a bit better and
Speaker 1: hone in on that. You know, and a few coaches
Speaker 1: used to say I was very raw, but as I
Speaker 1: sort of fixed those things up, I was.
Speaker 5: Able to play a little bit better. So Essenon's VFL
Speaker 5: side was the Benny Obamas, Is that right? That was correct.
Speaker 5: So you obviously had.
Speaker 3: When did that AFL dream start, but you also had
Speaker 3: an entry point for that as well, given it was
Speaker 3: how far away from your hometown?
Speaker 5: Yeah, forty five minutes from my hometown.
Speaker 1: So I was traveling four times a week while working
Speaker 1: full time with my dad, and I just I.
Speaker 5: Didn't see any other way. I really liked football.
Speaker 1: I love the training aspect of it and the team
Speaker 1: and the team aspect, and.
Speaker 5: I just I just believe from day one I could go.
Speaker 1: I just had his mindset if I can just go
Speaker 1: as hard as I can, as long as I can,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what's going to happen, but
Speaker 1: if something does, well great.
Speaker 5: So what kind of football were you? So?
Speaker 1: Raw booming, left foot the tank as you said, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but maybe lacked a bit of football house at that stage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just football knowledge and that that showed early in my
Speaker 1: AFL career. But I did I try and fix that,
Speaker 1: but it was more raw power.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: I used to do track, I used to go to
Speaker 1: the gym a lot, and so I sort of combined
Speaker 1: all that with Also I was a forward as a
Speaker 1: as a kid, so just having that now surround the
Speaker 1: forward line was probably the key in the end.
Speaker 4: You talked about Nider and Adrian Hickman and the like,
Speaker 4: who else sort of helped shape you in those years
Speaker 4: because they had the chance to pick you up eston
Speaker 4: early doors and left it a while, didn't they.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they left it another year and that was a
Speaker 1: bit hard to take that rejection. But I didn't give up.
Speaker 1: And I think Matthew Knights ended up getting sacked at
Speaker 1: the end of two thousand and nine or ten, sorry,
Speaker 1: and James Hurd and Brendan mccountany came in and really
Speaker 1: took me under my out their wing. And what Brendan
Speaker 1: said was, you're not a midfielder, You're actually a forward. Here,
Speaker 1: come with me, And I said, well, I played all
Speaker 1: juniors forward. It sort of worked out and clicked because.
Speaker 4: You got on the rookie draft I think two thousand
Speaker 4: and nine, just a couple of days before Christmas. I
Speaker 4: think it was you played the three games under Matthew Knights.
Speaker 4: Were you more you were playing midfield in those three
Speaker 4: games or a bit of that.
Speaker 1: Because of the running capabilities I had, they thought I
Speaker 1: was a midfielder and I did an okay job, but
Speaker 1: not great, and I was probably probably lucky to stay there,
Speaker 1: and it was fortunate enough that Hurdy kept a lot
Speaker 1: of players from the previous year. Otherwise I think I
Speaker 1: would have probably finished at the end of that year.
Speaker 1: But you know, fate has it that I got another
Speaker 1: chance and put it in a solid preseason and got
Speaker 1: a game.
Speaker 3: Maccadale's ever said this about me, as Adrian Hickmott said
Speaker 3: he was an amazing specimen half a step back. So
Speaker 3: that's an actual quote to Melbourne though. So there was
Speaker 3: a time where you were, you know, driving down four
Speaker 3: nights a week. He decided I'd actually got to quit
Speaker 3: myself full time, so you were staying in a motel.
Speaker 3: You were at a boxing gym as well. Take us
Speaker 3: through how that happened and why you thought that was
Speaker 3: so important.
Speaker 5: Halfway through the year, my football was really declining. I
Speaker 5: was getting tired.
Speaker 1: It was you know, middle of winter as it happens,
Speaker 1: and Adrian said, look, you need to move down and
Speaker 1: like Essenmon's Monto back in the day, whatever it takes
Speaker 1: to try and get the best out of yourself. And
Speaker 1: I said, right, okay, I'll take six months, I'll go
Speaker 1: down and I'll train full time.
Speaker 5: I'm not full time.
Speaker 1: I'm not a full time football yet, but I'll train
Speaker 1: for ye, so that helped him. By the end of
Speaker 1: the season, I managed a few best on grounds and
Speaker 1: then I finally got drafted from that, so it did work.
Speaker 5: But it was an interesting experience in the hostel.
Speaker 4: Well, I was going to say, Ralphie's used to staying
Speaker 4: in five star accommodation wherever he goes. What do you
Speaker 4: get for it? Back then, what do you get for
Speaker 4: twenty dollars a night at hostel is like a prison type?
Speaker 4: It was forty dollars a night and I was forty,
Speaker 4: so it was terrible. Yeah, and you weren't really earning
Speaker 4: any money at the time. Obviously your dad was probably
Speaker 4: looking after at that stage, and he obviously believed in
Speaker 4: you enough that you can go somewhere with your career.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Mum and dad both supported me in the journey.
Speaker 1: And look, I was working full time and I had
Speaker 1: a little bit of money, not much, and I just
Speaker 1: wanted to get down there and just try and pretend
Speaker 1: I was a footballer, just to get into the swing
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 5: But it was a very interesting experience.
Speaker 1: You know, shared TVs and shared things and look, it
Speaker 1: was at the stage where I said I didn't care
Speaker 1: what I was doing as long as I was trying
Speaker 1: to progress and get better.
Speaker 5: What was what was the rookie list? Like, you know
Speaker 5: at that stage there?
Speaker 3: I mean now it's sort of you know, you can
Speaker 3: play games immediately and you know you're very much part
Speaker 3: of the club. But did you feel not on the
Speaker 3: out of there, but did you feel like you'd still
Speaker 3: made it? Or was the primary listing the the you know,
Speaker 3: the crowning achievements.
Speaker 1: Look, the contract was pretty terrible, to be honest. Would
Speaker 1: have thirty grand. Thirty grand, yes, so that's you know
Speaker 1: you signed that off.
Speaker 5: That's okay. But yeah, you do have a little bit
Speaker 5: of friction.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're a rookie and you were treated a little
Speaker 1: bit different than you would be now, I think because
Speaker 1: you're not.
Speaker 5: A part of the list.
Speaker 1: But you end up doing everything as a list player does.
Speaker 1: So you've got to work through that. And yeah, there
Speaker 1: was a few battles with players and then again you're
Speaker 1: building a character to be a better player.
Speaker 4: What do you mean by battles with players internally externally.
Speaker 1: You know, on the field or a bit of banter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've just got to get through that boys will be boys. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're only on rookie kind of thing or maybe like that.
Speaker 1: And did you feel welcome though, did youson? Did you
Speaker 1: feel welcome in that initially?
Speaker 5: Probably not? No, you know that's okay.
Speaker 1: It was a kid from the country, Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: was an unknown resource.
Speaker 5: On the taps I did.
Speaker 1: I just I've come from nowhere, so I sort of
Speaker 1: had to prove myself, which is okay, and that's what
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 4: And to play your first game against Collingwood, I think
Speaker 4: it was around twenty Matthew Knights's coach. What are your
Speaker 4: recollections that day you've had I think you were twenty
Speaker 4: two round about twenty two at the time. You had
Speaker 4: seventeen disposals, so you've walked in and had a pretty
Speaker 4: reasonable game first up, Yeah, and we.
Speaker 5: Lost pretty badly.
Speaker 1: And I think I lined up on Dane Swan and
Speaker 1: Scott Penalbury in the first first bounce and I thinking, okay, right,
Speaker 1: let's do this.
Speaker 5: But I got the first touch and we got a
Speaker 5: goal from a bit.
Speaker 1: From then on they were too classy and look, I
Speaker 1: learned a lot from you know, Daisy Thomas, Scott and
Speaker 1: Dane Swan that night, and I thought, Okay, that's that's
Speaker 1: what it's about. You there at the top of their game.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm going to have to get to to
Speaker 1: be relevant in this game. So it was a big
Speaker 1: eye opener. And obviously I was playing the wrong position,
Speaker 1: so I was playing.
Speaker 3: But to play prime Collingwood, you know, to play a
Speaker 3: massive like that, and you're thinking, this is everything that
Speaker 3: I've ever dreamed of and here on the big stage.
Speaker 5: Like how satisfying was that? It was good?
Speaker 1: It was quite nerve wracking, you know, there was sixty
Speaker 1: plus thousand and you sort of get out there and
Speaker 1: you go, oh, should I be out here?
Speaker 5: But and you work out, oh, I can't.
Speaker 1: Do this now anymore, like you're in the BFL. I've
Speaker 1: got to change my game style a little bit. But
Speaker 1: it's quite rewarding after you know, it was about three
Speaker 1: or four year journey trying to get there, but disappointing.
Speaker 5: Nice. Yeah, they just.
Speaker 4: Absolutely smash Obviously the arrival of the prodigal Son. James
Speaker 4: heard it was one of the biggest stories in town.
Speaker 4: Comes in. What's your first conversation with James Hurd first.
Speaker 1: Conversation, I think I did one thing wrong. We had
Speaker 1: to do a test and I did it wrong and
Speaker 1: he told me off, and I.
Speaker 5: Thought, oh okay, here were Darious and you know.
Speaker 1: I still wasn't nobody then and he borrowed me once
Speaker 1: and I said, okay, you'll never do that again.
Speaker 5: So you know, we got along really well.
Speaker 1: And it was I that was an eye opener for me,
Speaker 1: and ye, serious, what did you do wrong? You have
Speaker 1: to do a urine test and it was above the
Speaker 1: required range and you know, just by one. And yeah,
Speaker 1: he told me of okay, and what's so what did
Speaker 1: that signify?
Speaker 5: Though? Well, maybe he's.
Speaker 1: Come and bring some standards and and that kind of
Speaker 1: thing with so maybe maybe I got to be serious
Speaker 1: maybe And then yeah, he pulled me in the line,
Speaker 1: and so did Macha, and I think Hurd he told
Speaker 1: me off once. Maka told me off once, and he said,
Speaker 1: and they didn't tell me off again.
Speaker 4: He can tie off with the best Maca Cantey as well.
Speaker 4: But it was really a dream team, wasn't it. There
Speaker 4: Bomber comes in and Hurdy and Maca. The standards just
Speaker 4: completely changed in that sense from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you got a sense from the two thousand
Speaker 1: Grand Final that team. You got to you got to
Speaker 1: feel of that. They brought that into the club and
Speaker 1: it was not serious. We definitely had some fun, but
Speaker 1: when we trained will definitely we'll switched on.
Speaker 5: And I think I got the most out of that.
Speaker 3: Us about Bomber and just the little things that at
Speaker 3: sen and club legend and of course couple of multiple
Speaker 3: time geelong coach.
Speaker 5: What did he bring as well?
Speaker 1: Because he's quirky, but he's an extraordinary quirky Yeah, understatement.
Speaker 1: I think he didn't talk to the group as much,
Speaker 1: but he was more I think Hurdie's mentor, so he
Speaker 1: wasn't sort of our direct coach, so our interactions weren't massive.
Speaker 5: But that's probably my take on ituirky.
Speaker 4: And who was the person that said you're not a midfielder, Dewey,
Speaker 4: we want you to play forward. Was there one person
Speaker 4: that was there a decision there that that was made
Speaker 4: internally that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think Brenda McCartney. Obviously.
Speaker 1: I addressed that straight away and he said I think
Speaker 1: you're a forward because he was the forward line coach
Speaker 1: and I said, no worries, I can play forward. He
Speaker 1: was okay, we'll show me, so he'd throw me the
Speaker 1: ball and I'd say, right, what do you want to do?
Speaker 1: Goes right, Will and kick it from fifty Okay, there
Speaker 1: you go. He was okay, great, okay, now market turn
Speaker 1: do it the same thing and he and he really
Speaker 1: pushed me on that way, and I said, well I
Speaker 1: can do all that, and he goes, great, you're a
Speaker 1: forward and you're going to start forward and you're going
Speaker 1: to start the round one. So I said, great, this
Speaker 1: is a dream come true.
Speaker 4: So that's just confidence all of a sudden, You're not
Speaker 4: worrying about your spot.
Speaker 2: You're thinking I've got a roll here.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they believe in me.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And this is the first time in my whole career
Speaker 1: that I've actually now I mean a senior team in
Speaker 1: the AFL and I can actually help the team win.
Speaker 5: So it was a great feeling.
Speaker 3: Is that it just seems so simple. You're a forward, right,
Speaker 3: I't go and do it. But that's the essence of coaching.
Speaker 1: It is it is, And he picks up those saddle things.
Speaker 1: I think the year prior, maybe we're lacking in the
Speaker 1: midfield space. And if I can run fifteen sixteen k's,
Speaker 1: I said, well, you're definitely a midfielder. But how about
Speaker 1: I play forward. I'll probably run less, but I'll be faster.
Speaker 1: So it's just an adjustment.
Speaker 4: And from that moment on, you really make that position
Speaker 4: your own. You kick four goals on Anzac Day. What's
Speaker 4: that like? I know you lost the game, Yeah, but
Speaker 4: you were clearly evidence best player on the day and
Speaker 4: kick four goal.
Speaker 1: Strong good traveling Again, it's not big.
Speaker 5: Is still telling Tremor having the game of his life? Yeah,
Speaker 5: I think my life really changed from that point on.
Speaker 4: That was the switch.
Speaker 1: That was Yeah, and and sort of everyone everyone knew
Speaker 1: who I was after that day and you know that
Speaker 1: that's okay. But I felt like in that game I
Speaker 1: could sort of do what I wanted and you know,
Speaker 1: really free enough to kick those goals. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I might have missed a couple as well. But end
Speaker 1: Zac Day is a special day with you know, the crowd,
Speaker 1: the moment, the build up, you know, ninety thousand plus
Speaker 1: and you sort of just you live and breathing.
Speaker 5: This is so good and you really enjoy the experience.
Speaker 3: How does your life change as an AFL footballer after
Speaker 3: a game like that?
Speaker 5: We number one year contract, which is which is a
Speaker 5: great thing, isn't it.
Speaker 1: They you talk about that, but just being recognized, you know,
Speaker 1: throughout the on the street or whether the Bombers supporters,
Speaker 1: which look, it's a good part of football, but it
Speaker 1: also has its downsides.
Speaker 5: But at that time it was okay.
Speaker 4: So with the contract, do they help you out straight away?
Speaker 4: Because I think there had to be a couple of
Speaker 4: injuries to keep you playing there, but they did have
Speaker 4: some that year and there was some suggestion. Did Hurdie
Speaker 4: say we need to keep Cramery? Was there any interest
Speaker 4: from the Giants? Did they come did a couple of
Speaker 4: clubs come knocking even early doors?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I comment on that, but maybe yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, but I think hurdy just wanted to sew
Speaker 1: it out. But I remember I think he went on
Speaker 1: radio and said, look, every game he plays, but don't
Speaker 1: sign he goes up another ten's.
Speaker 4: Right, That's exactly what he said, which which is good
Speaker 4: for you because you're not on a lot anyway.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was probably hoping for match payments and things,
Speaker 1: but look, and I never did it for money, and
Speaker 1: it was always about the football and I was just
Speaker 1: fortunate enough to get a contract at then AFL club.
Speaker 4: That's a great quote, Ralphie. This is from James Hurd
Speaker 4: on radio. I'm hoping Paul Hamilton's listening. It's almost done.
Speaker 4: I think every time we play he's costing us another
Speaker 4: ten grand. Not bad.
Speaker 3: So twenty games, thirty four goals, you have arrived as
Speaker 3: an NFL footballer.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it was good. And I'd won a few
Speaker 5: gulking awards after that, and.
Speaker 2: Three in a row. You end up winning at Essendon,
Speaker 2: which is big effort, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 5: I guess so they went.
Speaker 1: You know, thirty goals is not massive, but you know, Cloky,
Speaker 1: I think it was kicking in the sixties.
Speaker 5: So eighths and the best affairs. I think you got
Speaker 5: a shoulder recast.
Speaker 3: You missed the final, miss what would have been one
Speaker 3: of your rare finals, obviously shattering.
Speaker 5: Yeah it was.
Speaker 1: It was I was playing well and I remember I
Speaker 1: hurt my shoulder at West Coast late in the game
Speaker 1: and my shoulder collapsed and it was quite painful.
Speaker 5: But we had a final against Carton and we didn't
Speaker 5: do that well.
Speaker 1: And Jake Carla was up forward and he was a
Speaker 1: backman at stage and he went forward and he's just
Speaker 1: you know, I wish I played that game, but I
Speaker 1: was just yeah, I was done for the year. But
Speaker 1: twenty games for that sort of my first real season
Speaker 1: was a great hit out.
Speaker 3: And what did you sign on a contract with the
Speaker 3: two year contract? Did you sign a couple of two
Speaker 3: years or did you sign a four year?
Speaker 5: I think I signed a two year deal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then then Brenda McCartney went to Western Bulldogs
Speaker 1: and then he then decided to offer me another contract
Speaker 1: to cross over, so which I initially declined. But the
Speaker 1: way the essence supplement saga was going, I was keen
Speaker 1: to get out of there.
Speaker 3: So the first you would added the first nine games
Speaker 3: of twenty twelve, there was some kind of supplement saga,
Speaker 3: you know, take us through when you first heard about
Speaker 3: we're going to do something a bit different.
Speaker 5: Of course, it's all within the rules, but this is
Speaker 5: what we want you to sign up for.
Speaker 1: Well, essentially, you know, I was twenty two to twenty three,
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you what. We did not blink an eye,
Speaker 1: and it was just a part of the training regime
Speaker 1: and we wanted to try and get the best out
Speaker 1: of ourselves. So we believed in what they were telling us,
Speaker 1: and we said, yes, we'll do that and anyway, move on,
Speaker 1: We'll continue to train and continue to play. So it
Speaker 1: wasn't really a massive discussion.
Speaker 3: Wasn't even something dramatic At some stage there, I think
Speaker 3: the players got the club doctor to sign a document
Speaker 3: to say this is all above board. But when it
Speaker 3: all started initially, you like didn't even as you say
Speaker 3: a blink, an I know, and.
Speaker 1: These things happen in the in clubs all the time,
Speaker 1: where they might you might sign a waiver for someone
Speaker 1: doing a study for a university course and you do
Speaker 1: a sleep study, so you've got to sign off some paperwork.
Speaker 1: You sign that paperwork and you go yep, and you
Speaker 1: go on to training. You think about something else. And
Speaker 1: the program itself wasn't you know, we didn't talk about
Speaker 1: it too much, but it just happened and we just
Speaker 1: went on with our day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, with that, like you do you remember Stephen Dank
Speaker 4: being there was only there for a short period of time.
Speaker 4: What sort of connection did you have with Stephen Dank?
Speaker 1: Connection the same as you have with a sports scientist
Speaker 1: or the high performance guy at the club.
Speaker 5: So it was it wasn't any unusual to anyone else.
Speaker 3: No, so adding games, thirty two goals. Another really solid season. Obviously,
Speaker 3: the US falls out of the season when you get
Speaker 3: some of these injuries. At that stage, you're still progressing
Speaker 3: on you know, you don't feel there's anything the fairst.
Speaker 3: It almost feels like it's another season too. Yeah, I
Speaker 3: definitely was. And Joe winning the Brownlough.
Speaker 1: I think it was well deserved and that was probably
Speaker 1: a highlight.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I remember the start of that season. We're
Speaker 5: on fire.
Speaker 1: We yeah, we couldn't lose a game, and I think
Speaker 1: our injuries riddled us, and I remember it was it
Speaker 1: was a memorable season. It was great to be part
Speaker 1: of it. And I think I started hearing whispers possibly
Speaker 1: the next year maybe and maybe Dyson Heppel might have
Speaker 1: mentioned something, and I thought it was a joke.
Speaker 4: Really you had no, yeah, absolutely no belief that this
Speaker 4: was going to have a cause.
Speaker 1: And that was a feeling from the other players as well.
Speaker 1: Was it was you know, is it is that really
Speaker 1: a thing?
Speaker 5: Or like, what are we talking about? What did say? Oh,
Speaker 5: he just heard rumors that something's something's brewing.
Speaker 4: This is well before the February press conferences. Is that
Speaker 4: they're in the preseason.
Speaker 5: This must have been in the off season.
Speaker 4: The off season. Yeah, Like, can you take us through
Speaker 4: what you did, what you had to do? Was there?
Speaker 4: We were talking about a program. How would you explain
Speaker 4: that to people, like going off site and things like that?
Speaker 4: Was there? Yeah, what us can you take us into what?
Speaker 4: Actually how many times you would have to do that
Speaker 4: sort of stuff and get the injections.
Speaker 5: Or you would think every second day?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and then sometimes you'd have to go off
Speaker 1: side to get some certain things and yeah, but it
Speaker 1: was constant, constant.
Speaker 4: So it was quite a regular thing. It wasn't like
Speaker 4: this just happened in for a short period of time.
Speaker 5: This was a No, it was regular through the preseason
Speaker 5: and the season. It's a lot of needles. As you said,
Speaker 5: you're not having needles the whole time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know what I mean, like we all
Speaker 3: totally understand players perspective.
Speaker 5: Had that many I might have thought this is pretty quirky.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe a young twenty year old getting told what
Speaker 1: to do sometimes.
Speaker 5: I know what you're saying.
Speaker 1: We really were focusing on the on the game, not
Speaker 1: the not those and it was just part of the process.
Speaker 1: You've got to do a lot of things to play
Speaker 1: afil and it was just one of those components.
Speaker 3: To it said it was a bit haphazard and random,
Speaker 3: like you know, it's time for your injection. I've already
Speaker 3: had one. Like there was was there a feeling that
Speaker 3: was a bit slip shot at times.
Speaker 5: With Dank's personality?
Speaker 2: Yeah, personality.
Speaker 5: He was.
Speaker 1: Very quirky, but you know, he was in pharmaceuticals and
Speaker 1: a few other things.
Speaker 5: So look, I just went with a fly. I was.
Speaker 1: I was trying to get the best out of myself
Speaker 1: and if I was being told by someone paid by
Speaker 1: the club.
Speaker 5: To do this, then you would do it. Yeah, as
Speaker 5: simple as that.
Speaker 2: When you say quirky, it's just his mannerisms that sort of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think his personality, you know, a few of
Speaker 1: the boys had a bit of a joke about him.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm not sure what he's doing now. He's
Speaker 1: still I think he's still in pharmaceuticals. So how does
Speaker 1: it developed?
Speaker 3: So you get this I assumed sinking feeling when Dyson
Speaker 3: says I think something's up, and then obviously we know
Speaker 3: that fateful press conference with the club self reports what's
Speaker 3: that summer.
Speaker 4: Like, I'm not sure when do you know the day,
Speaker 4: So it's February five.
Speaker 3: I think it was the press conference when the club
Speaker 3: was the press conference happened James thirty and Robson David
Speaker 3: Evans basically say that we're going to be part of
Speaker 3: an investigation.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I still think that the players were more in disbelief
Speaker 1: and think this can't be too serious, and you know,
Speaker 1: those things happen. I think as time goes on, you go,
Speaker 1: this is becoming more serious, as we're starting to realize.
Speaker 2: So where were you when the press conference?
Speaker 4: You as a group told that this press was pretty
Speaker 4: hastily arranged press conference? Do you remember that day?
Speaker 5: Vaguely?
Speaker 1: I think we're at a meeting and then they might
Speaker 1: have mentioned that there's going to be a press conference
Speaker 1: and last.
Speaker 4: Year's stomach sink then and you think, what the hell's
Speaker 4: going on here?
Speaker 1: I was one of those people that sort of looked
Speaker 1: at say, I'm sitting next to Joe, but I'm looking
Speaker 1: and thinking, are we in trouble here or what's going on?
Speaker 1: And the players still didn't know if we're in trouble
Speaker 1: or not. And we're getting people to tell us that
Speaker 1: we're not in trouble. It's not our fault and we're okay,
Speaker 1: so you okay, that's fine. So we sort of were
Speaker 1: told that throughout the investigation.
Speaker 3: And you think we'll get cleared, it'll be a shortish
Speaker 3: type of process. We know we've done nothing wrong, like
Speaker 3: at that stage, you're sort of feeling defined about it all.
Speaker 1: Pretty much pretty much, and that probably helped them in
Speaker 1: the fact that we were pretty blase about it, and
Speaker 1: then they pretty much set us up to then tell
Speaker 1: us information to then get us on the technicality. In
Speaker 1: the end, we'll explain that to us. Well, they said
Speaker 1: that you give nothing to worry about. You've also you know,
Speaker 1: you haven't done the wrong thing, and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: And then someone all of a sudden says, oh, no,
Speaker 1: you did technicality. Yes two, yes, you've got to Actually
Speaker 1: you're guilty and you're going to have twelve months off
Speaker 1: because we need someone to we need someone to blame.
Speaker 3: So potentially, you guys shouldn't have allowed yourself to be interviewed.
Speaker 3: It's almost like you were relaxed about it. Yeah, we
Speaker 3: took some injections, but there was nothing wrong, and then
Speaker 3: they got you on that technicality much, so.
Speaker 5: That's that is that mistrust. I'm not sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how does that sit with you now? The way
Speaker 4: that played out in that initial.
Speaker 1: Pire And looking back, We've got a lot of staff
Speaker 1: in our businesses and I would hate to think that
Speaker 1: I do the wrong thing by my staff and then
Speaker 1: I blame them and you know, I'll let them go
Speaker 1: and you know, and I mislead them into doing something.
Speaker 5: So at the time I was, you know, it was okay.
Speaker 5: But as you get older and you look back, and you.
Speaker 1: Think for an early twenty year old to be manipulated
Speaker 1: like that, it is a hard thing.
Speaker 2: It's you know, who's responsible for how do you.
Speaker 4: You're a team, you're a group together, how do you
Speaker 4: stick together through that? Because there's so many you know,
Speaker 4: guns going off in all different directions. How do you
Speaker 4: get together? And you know, you play, you play the
Speaker 4: next year, you play that year of twenty thirteen and
Speaker 4: have some reasonably amazing performances and yet you're being pulled
Speaker 4: apart at the seams.
Speaker 1: I think Joe Watson was really strong in that aspect
Speaker 1: as a captain, and everyone leaned on him, and I
Speaker 1: think he did a fantastic job to keep everyone together.
Speaker 5: There was uncertainty, we had media nearly at every training.
Speaker 1: Session, which you know, you've got a job to do,
Speaker 1: you guys, that's fine, but it became really hard to
Speaker 1: try and do your job when everyone kept talking about it.
Speaker 5: Was almost like the pre COVID. It was like a
Speaker 5: daily event. You know, what's going on, what's happening here,
Speaker 5: and we were the brunt of it.
Speaker 1: And I think that started to mentally break down a
Speaker 1: lot of the players.
Speaker 5: Throughout the year.
Speaker 3: There were just big moments, and so you know, I
Speaker 3: have a three or four quiet days and then Job
Speaker 3: goes on AFL three sixty or fox Foot and talks
Speaker 3: about it, you know, AD nine to six four.
Speaker 5: And you know, all of a sudden it explodes again.
Speaker 5: I'm lucky. You know, you could never get respite. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you've got to think exactly what I said.
Speaker 1: Before, we're innocent. And you know, Joe doesn't go out
Speaker 1: there and saying that if he doesn't think he's innocent.
Speaker 1: So that's exactly where I think they set us up
Speaker 1: to say more than we should have.
Speaker 4: Do you remember that night? It was pretty famous Footy
Speaker 4: Night in folklore in a way. When Job goes on
Speaker 4: television watching that, were you were aware that he was
Speaker 4: going to say that.
Speaker 5: I wasn't aware he's going to say it, but I
Speaker 5: remember watching it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was what went through your head that night.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Job's the captain, Job's representing everyone in
Speaker 1: the team, and he goes out and says that it
Speaker 1: says that it's okay. You know, that's he's trying to
Speaker 1: alleviate any any fear that we've done anymore.
Speaker 2: And just doubling back onto that. You have no idea
Speaker 2: was what you took.
Speaker 4: Anyway, Even to this day, you still don't know what
Speaker 4: was actually taken.
Speaker 5: There's some things I think we don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, who's giving you advice at that stage? Because you said,
Speaker 3: you know, you probably shouldn't have said anything. You probably
Speaker 3: shouldn't have subjected yourself to the investigators. But so the
Speaker 3: club's saying to you, we, you know, we encourage you
Speaker 3: to go and give full on frank evidence because we
Speaker 3: know it's going to clear.
Speaker 5: Pretty much pretty much.
Speaker 1: And our managers were also supportive of that, and they
Speaker 1: were probably getting.
Speaker 5: Directed from the clubs.
Speaker 1: I don't know who the you know, was a sarda
Speaker 1: or a warder giving direction to the club to make
Speaker 1: sure we do that.
Speaker 5: I'm not sure.
Speaker 4: Could you feel that there was all my to split
Speaker 4: in the club? It was coming, There was going to
Speaker 4: be some split. There were certain people saying do this,
Speaker 4: do that, and then there's other people saying no, don't
Speaker 4: do this. Could you feel yeah, yeah, the tension.
Speaker 1: The tension was building and the stories were getting changed
Speaker 1: and that everyone starting to pick up.
Speaker 5: We'll hang on. We were actually in a bit of.
Speaker 1: Trouble and I'd moved on to Western Boardogs and Brent
Speaker 1: Prismol was at the Western Bulldogs as a head of
Speaker 1: role there at development role, and we were together and
Speaker 1: as time went on, we both sensed it was getting
Speaker 1: worse and worse and worse. So we we lean on
Speaker 1: each other as well. And I still spoke to the
Speaker 1: Essenon guys about it and through the time.
Speaker 5: But it was a challenging period. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Sorry, Yeah you go another another final series missed though,
Speaker 3: So as that, you know, as you're still playing amazing football,
Speaker 3: which is extraordinary given the circumstances, and you're thinking, okay,
Speaker 3: well we might qualify, but we might get booted out
Speaker 3: that moment where you know, we're obviously so many of
Speaker 3: those penalties get handed down and all of a sudden
Speaker 3: you realize, Okay, I missed last year's finals and I'm
Speaker 3: not playing finals again.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Which year are you talking about? Two thirty thirty?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we finished off the season. I think it
Speaker 1: was just getting to the point where we all were
Speaker 1: not focusing on the football anymore.
Speaker 4: Because with that, like, mental health is such a huge
Speaker 4: aspect of footy dow and we were in it. We
Speaker 4: deal with it a lot better now than we previously have.
Speaker 4: How did you feel for some of your teammates yourself
Speaker 4: as well, going through it without a huge amount of
Speaker 4: support And did you notice some of your teammates really
Speaker 4: really struggling through this period?
Speaker 1: It was new territory for Yeah, so things would happen
Speaker 1: and the best thing we could do is come together
Speaker 1: as a team, and that's all we had and we
Speaker 1: had to sort of stick to it. The media had
Speaker 1: their own agenda, ASATA had their own agenda, the AFL
Speaker 1: had their own agenda, even the Australian government, I don't know,
Speaker 1: Victorian government commission. So we felt like we're in a
Speaker 1: bubble and we had to stick together and that was
Speaker 1: the only thing. There were cracks starting to.
Speaker 4: Show, and I mean, without going into too much detail
Speaker 4: about the cracks, but there were clearly players who were
Speaker 4: absolutely struggling. And did they get the support that they
Speaker 4: needed because you're probably thinking, who's on outside here? There's
Speaker 4: so many different conflicting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think they would have got the support
Speaker 1: because that's the thing. They had so many people that
Speaker 1: were after us. Yeah, there was no escape. So who
Speaker 1: am I going to talk to that I can trust?
Speaker 1: Maybe mum and dad, maybe your partner, but that's about it,
Speaker 1: and your teammates.
Speaker 5: Everyone's covering their arts at that stage. Yeah, there'll be
Speaker 5: a lot of people trying to do that, I think.
Speaker 5: So you decided to move on, Yeah, tell us about that.
Speaker 1: Brenda McCartney came to me early in the year twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1: I think he put an offer on the table and
Speaker 1: it was substantially more than essenon, And with everything that
Speaker 1: happened that year, I was really sick of it. I
Speaker 1: love the team, I love the players and the team,
Speaker 1: but I thought maybe it's time to move on and
Speaker 1: get a fresh start. Didn't think i'd get banned for
Speaker 1: a year, and I don't think McCartney and those guys
Speaker 1: thought I was going to get banned for you unfortunately,
Speaker 1: But I think it was just something I needed just
Speaker 1: to maybe just a bit of a reset.
Speaker 2: Yea, was it?
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously Macay you have had a great relationship
Speaker 4: with Brendan and the like, but as much of it
Speaker 4: was I don't want to be a part of this anymore.
Speaker 4: It must have been like a drained You know, maybe
Speaker 4: a fresh start is going to clear everything.
Speaker 5: For me, it was a drain. Every day.
Speaker 1: You knew what every turn up to, so you knew
Speaker 1: what the shit you're going to have to put up with, yeap,
Speaker 1: just before you.
Speaker 5: Even get on the field to train.
Speaker 4: So it was groundhog day, isn't it in a lot
Speaker 4: of ways, living it over and over again? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was monotonous and that was part of it.
Speaker 1: If I can get away from it somehow, I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, that might be my chance.
Speaker 4: Was there one moment? What was your lowest moment? Do
Speaker 4: you think through that period? Was there one? I mean,
Speaker 4: obviously we'd get to that with twenty sixteen, but even
Speaker 4: through that twenty thirteen season when all Hull was breaking loose,
Speaker 4: was there one moment we.
Speaker 1: Didn't In terms of thirteen, we still didn't know the
Speaker 1: sky what was going to happen. The low point for
Speaker 1: me was probably twenty fifty Bulldogs and I said this.
Speaker 1: Brent Prison and I were both talking to each other
Speaker 1: and I said, do you do you get a feeling
Speaker 1: that this is going to happen? And we both sort
Speaker 1: of agreed, and I thought that was the point. It
Speaker 1: was end of twenty fifteen, they're about to get banned.
Speaker 1: Probably January two thousand and sixteen sixteen. That was a
Speaker 1: really low point because you think, oh, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like a they've got youa and you're thinking, all this time,
Speaker 1: they've built this, they've built this case. And look, Peter
Speaker 1: Gordon did a great job for Brent Prisblee and I
Speaker 1: and I'm very grateful for it. But it just was
Speaker 1: there was no way out, and that was the thing
Speaker 1: for those that you know, would want to recall it.
Speaker 3: So obviously, you know, punishment handed down in two thousand
Speaker 3: and thirty and s and excluded from the finals, herd
Speaker 3: suspended for twelve months, the club find two million dollars
Speaker 3: tripp to those draft picks, and then you know, by
Speaker 3: March twenty fifteen you found not guilty by STATA, and
Speaker 3: so you potentially think you're out at that stage and
Speaker 3: then obviously under the water appeal, that's when you suspended.
Speaker 3: Just take me back to leaving the footy club. So
Speaker 3: Mark Thompson's the new coach. He calls you, tells you,
Speaker 3: I'll love you to stay. Yeah, any sort of regard
Speaker 3: action that makes you think I'd reconsider or you were.
Speaker 5: You were all in on getting to the.
Speaker 1: Dogs that time. When he rang, I was, I was
Speaker 1: already done. But you know a month prior, no, I was.
Speaker 1: I was definitely on the fence. Hard Hearts would love
Speaker 1: to stay. I wanted to stay. And some of the
Speaker 1: players had a conversation with Bomber and and said, can
Speaker 1: you do something and make sure he stays? And it
Speaker 1: just the difference in contract was huge, and I just
Speaker 1: and it was the combination of the Asada stuff and
Speaker 1: I just really wanted to get out of there.
Speaker 5: How much more today offer you? I think it was
Speaker 5: another year or something, because you've got four years at
Speaker 5: the door.
Speaker 3: Years.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Do you remember what Mark Thompson said to you
Speaker 4: was did he go the hard cell?
Speaker 5: Did he?
Speaker 1: Well? He rang me when I was at the races
Speaker 1: actually and said, I just give us five minutes and
Speaker 1: then I have a big chat. But look, he was
Speaker 1: trying to get me across, and I just, yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: figure it out. I feed it out, and I spoke
Speaker 1: to Mum and Dad and I thought, what's the best
Speaker 1: option for me?
Speaker 5: And I think that was it.
Speaker 1: And by the time he rang me, I was already
Speaker 1: I could have been already training at the Western Bulldogs
Speaker 1: or whatever. And he rang me again, I said, it's done.
Speaker 1: Just forget about it. So anyway, that's histrue.
Speaker 4: And that two thousand and fourteen season, what can you
Speaker 4: take it through? That was a tough year for not
Speaker 4: for you, but because you played really good for me
Speaker 4: just to get.
Speaker 1: A yard clear and that was enough to let him
Speaker 1: settle and drive brilliantly for God.
Speaker 2: But yeah, Dogs was a really tough year for Mecca.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Macca Macha was starting to probably in that year,
Speaker 1: starting to struggle with the players and the and the
Speaker 1: and the culture around that club. And you can see
Speaker 1: by the end of that year was really slipping. But look,
Speaker 1: I enjoyed the Bulldogs. The Bulldogs are a great club.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think he just lost touch with the players.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of friction, wasn't there player wise?
Speaker 4: With him? By the end it was by the end
Speaker 4: of it you could sense, you know, a car crash
Speaker 4: coming at some stage.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: For the year as well, what you're thinking, this is
Speaker 4: going to go It's not gonna end.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, halfway through the year you could sense it. Look,
Speaker 1: I was sitting in a great spot. I played okay
Speaker 1: and I got along with Brendan, but he was just
Speaker 1: he was under the strain, I think, and you could
Speaker 1: definitely see.
Speaker 3: That what has lost touch made we love market We've
Speaker 3: had him in this seat, one of favorites. He's talked
Speaker 3: about some of his failings, but you know, it was
Speaker 3: a difficult period there as well. Brian Griffin was probably
Speaker 3: a reluctant captain. He had a couple of agitators in there.
Speaker 5: You know. Adam Cooney was, you know, probably not playing
Speaker 5: the great foot he wanted to do.
Speaker 3: Jack Stringer give us some details on you know, how
Speaker 3: it goes bad in the spaces of a couple of months.
Speaker 1: I think I think the players start to get disgruntled
Speaker 1: with him and they start doing things against him. And
Speaker 1: then if you if your culture starts swinging against the leader,
Speaker 1: then that's when it really affects the team performance.
Speaker 3: And what and what's the not backstabbing? But you know,
Speaker 3: coach is no good whispering campaign. How does it happen
Speaker 3: within the footy club?
Speaker 1: Oh like wildfire, So it just it happens naturally. And
Speaker 1: and he could sense that. And I think I can't
Speaker 1: say what happened with him in Peter Gordon, but I
Speaker 1: think he just put his hand up and said, well,
Speaker 1: I'm done. And look I get along with Makato, I
Speaker 1: know really well. And and I spoke to him afterwards
Speaker 1: and he and he said, you know, he got to
Speaker 1: him and and he's learned from that and moved on.
Speaker 1: And look, football is a really tough game. And it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter for coaches in the firing line. There's it's
Speaker 1: got to be a coach or a player, you know,
Speaker 1: and that's it's one or the others. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's tough at times.
Speaker 4: And it's tough for you. You were overseas when Ryan
Speaker 4: Griffin quits was about there You're thinking, how the hell
Speaker 4: what's going on over there?
Speaker 1: When someone someone text me, oh, your coach is gone,
Speaker 1: and then Vin to say, he goes, oh.
Speaker 5: Your captain's gone to.
Speaker 2: What's going on here? And I've just come to the club.
Speaker 2: But that was an interesting there's no regrets.
Speaker 4: You're still were happy to keep going with the Dogs
Speaker 4: and you went for is Gone.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I really love the Dogs and I had
Speaker 1: a great time there and look for the for the Dogs,
Speaker 1: it was a great reset it And look we made
Speaker 1: the finals in twenty fifteen and we got Marcus Bontopali
Speaker 1: and Bevo comes in and he changes the game style
Speaker 1: and I really admire how well Bevo did in that
Speaker 1: first year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, how proud of you of the way you held
Speaker 3: yourself like even in that twenty fourteen years. So the
Speaker 3: show cause notices are handed out June twelve, twenty and fourteen,
Speaker 3: you lose your captain and your coach. November fourteen, infraction notice.
Speaker 5: Is issued to the players. You're still playing reasonable football there,
Speaker 5: Like how do you operate on a day to day basis.
Speaker 1: It's one of those things you've got to shut off,
Speaker 1: shut off all the external noise and you've got to perform.
Speaker 1: And that was what I sort of weren't over the years,
Speaker 1: was it doesn't matter what's happening in your personal life.
Speaker 1: You need once you cross that line, you need to
Speaker 1: perform at your highest ability. And your best ability and
Speaker 1: I've just grown a skin or whatever. Yeah, grown really
Speaker 1: hardened to that and to push it all aside.
Speaker 4: It changed you, Yeah, it changed you as a person
Speaker 4: in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: And yeah it did, it did, And then I can
Speaker 1: talk about later. But then cracks start to show. When
Speaker 1: you throw enough things under the rug, you start tepping
Speaker 1: over it, and you know things, things change.
Speaker 3: So twenty fifteen, March thirty one, the players are cleared,
Speaker 3: the anti doping tribulal announcers all thirty four past and
Speaker 3: President Essen and players were not guilty of a band supplement.
Speaker 3: You got a new coach, you got this young superstar
Speaker 3: in Marcus Bontepelli.
Speaker 5: You're thinking we're away here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And twenty fifteen was a great, great season,
Speaker 1: and I actually I was enjoying football, Not that I didn't,
Speaker 1: but I you know, I enjoyed the football. Can nearly
Speaker 1: forget about the asatum stuff for once. I'm thinking this
Speaker 1: is this is, you know, we're back to normal, and
Speaker 1: then you know why I stayed with Essendon. So I
Speaker 1: actually really like that. But I'm not sure the date
Speaker 1: you might have mentioned when they did appeal it, but
Speaker 1: that was you know, bottom of your stomach kind of thing.
Speaker 4: Again May eleven, they appealed, which obviously that again you
Speaker 4: feel sick again.
Speaker 2: So it's that highs and lows that you Yeah, and.
Speaker 5: It was constant.
Speaker 1: It was, you know, we're we're in the We had
Speaker 1: to train and then went Brent Prismon and I had
Speaker 1: to go to the lawyer's office and we had to
Speaker 1: go back.
Speaker 5: In this and it was constant. It was. It was
Speaker 5: really tough mentally to try and get it through, but.
Speaker 2: Somehow I still played good footing.
Speaker 4: You kick you're out, you know, outscored Essendon in that
Speaker 4: game kick seven against Eston.
Speaker 2: That was the game that Jake Carlisle, I think.
Speaker 5: Said this club is.
Speaker 4: It was caught on camera if you remember that day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just fortunate enough on that day I
Speaker 1: knew how all the players played and feeling good and yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, some days work, some days don't.
Speaker 4: Do you feel like they're obviously going through some tough
Speaker 4: times as well.
Speaker 2: Did you feel like you're happy to kick the seven goals?
Speaker 4: Of course you are, you're playing great footy, but you
Speaker 4: feel for some of your ex teammates there as well.
Speaker 1: You could feel they were very deflated and I remember
Speaker 1: Dyson hepl on the day and they just just you know,
Speaker 1: they weren't there, they weren't themselves, and it was hard
Speaker 1: to see.
Speaker 5: I've got a job to do.
Speaker 1: I'll play well if I can, but I did feel
Speaker 1: for him and I could just sense the the they
Speaker 1: were down.
Speaker 5: They were beaten in that game.
Speaker 3: You play your single final against the Crows, sort of
Speaker 3: a famous final now given the Talia brothers and talk
Speaker 3: about Michael and Daniel and whether one of the brothers.
Speaker 5: Shared tas with the other one. But you played your
Speaker 5: first AFL final finally, yeah, Turs and fifteen.
Speaker 1: It was a good final. I thought were going to
Speaker 1: win and they managed to just beat us at the end.
Speaker 1: But I think we're probably the better team. But yeah,
Speaker 1: we just let it slide and look, finals, the pace
Speaker 1: picks up a little bit and you know, I got
Speaker 1: injured the week prior and I.
Speaker 4: Was a little bit with bits all going into the game.
Speaker 5: I wasn't too bad, but yeah, you're never perfect.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think you were two or three goals,
Speaker 4: two goals at least in front with about ten minutes
Speaker 4: to go and then they stage that great comeback adall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you get the feeling this footy club's
Speaker 2: going somewhere.
Speaker 1: You do, you do, And look what happened in that
Speaker 1: last quarters. We missed a lot of handballs and then
Speaker 1: we developed.
Speaker 4: The handball game the handball So that might have been
Speaker 4: the birth of the handball game. It was the birth really,
Speaker 4: did you internally talk about that later on.
Speaker 1: As soon as we start a preseason, we're going to
Speaker 1: work on that because we missed so many opportunities in
Speaker 1: the handball.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that was where it all got that where
Speaker 5: it got started.
Speaker 1: And look, that's probably what helped as well in that
Speaker 1: Grand Final to the sixteen.
Speaker 4: What was Bevo like you know that first year had
Speaker 4: with him in that as well, and he's a combative man,
Speaker 4: you know, with the talias and the situation there about
Speaker 4: that that was quite funny.
Speaker 1: But look, I really admired Bever and a lot of
Speaker 1: his coaching attributes. I took a lot from that even
Speaker 1: in the in the workforce as well. And he's always
Speaker 1: a very knowledgeable man. And look, if you're on your
Speaker 1: on the right side of Bev would be great. If
Speaker 1: you're on the wrong side, you know, you're off a cliff.
Speaker 1: But that that's okay. That's that's football, and that's that's
Speaker 1: the reality of it. What's over you on it was
Speaker 1: mostly on the good side, and then I finished on
Speaker 1: the batside.
Speaker 5: Tell Us about the Tally Brothers.
Speaker 3: Did the blokes feel blatantly that they knew what your
Speaker 3: tactics were?
Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't know. If a fact, I'm
Speaker 5: sure they would have spoke.
Speaker 3: And how much that mattered for the fan out there,
Speaker 3: you know, some of those little knowing those tactical issues.
Speaker 5: Is that a big thing?
Speaker 1: No, it's not like there was one one set play.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. It's not going to change the game.
Speaker 2: Where there was one set player, you think this is pretty.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's lining up with him and you go, that'side.
Speaker 5: But no, I don't even think about it.
Speaker 4: So you're building, you've played your first final, you're building
Speaker 4: towards twenty sixteen, but they's still that cloud. Tell Us
Speaker 4: about January twelve, twenty and sixteen. Were you at the
Speaker 4: Bulldogs you knew it was coming at that time?
Speaker 1: Jake Stringer actually text me before I knew. Really yeah,
Speaker 1: because I was driving so I didn't see it.
Speaker 5: I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I sort of saw the phone, I could, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not touching the phone, but he sort of messaged me,
Speaker 1: and I thought, what's his messaging?
Speaker 5: You know, that's why has he messaging me at this time.
Speaker 1: And then you know, I got closer and realized and
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, they've just put the verdict out that
Speaker 1: we've got a year off.
Speaker 5: And had a quick meeting.
Speaker 1: Up upstairs with the bulldogs hierarchy and went through it,
Speaker 1: and the most disappointing thing was that you can't be
Speaker 1: a part of the team that you were made to
Speaker 1: be a part of.
Speaker 5: So okay, you've got to go home. Okay, now what
Speaker 5: pretty quickly we have a meeting.
Speaker 4: That's it. You can't not allowed to be there.
Speaker 5: You're not allowed to be there. Texts idea.
Speaker 1: It might have been just hope you're well or something,
Speaker 1: you know, something small, and I thought there was an odd,
Speaker 1: odd text.
Speaker 2: He wasn't usually text, no, not at all, so you
Speaker 2: knew this is good news goverment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought, what's he talking about anyway? So I
Speaker 1: found it in a couple of more minutes. But yeah,
Speaker 1: just devastation for you know, obviously myself, but all the
Speaker 1: other players that were essentially innocent. And then as I said,
Speaker 1: they get you on a technicality that you weren't aware
Speaker 1: of that's not even proven, and you think, oh god,
Speaker 1: yeah anyway.
Speaker 3: So you like so that afternoon you get to I
Speaker 3: think David Meier's house assure may have one hundred years
Speaker 3: and your world collapses.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that was the biggest thing. We all stuck together.
Speaker 1: And that's what I said about Job and you know
Speaker 1: he's the captain and you know I wasn't at the club,
Speaker 1: but you know I was obviously welcome to come and
Speaker 1: we just started reminiscing on the good times and trying
Speaker 1: to get each other through it the best we can.
Speaker 1: So that was a really good day. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it all set settles in after a week,
Speaker 1: it doesn't it. You go, Okay, this is reality now.
Speaker 1: And fortunate enough to get some funding from Essendon to
Speaker 1: train at Keel or Grammar that year, and I was,
Speaker 1: you know, they obviously invited me to come and train and.
Speaker 4: We're all the players, okay with you coming back? Or
Speaker 4: was there any were a couple of people saying, well,
Speaker 4: he said another club now, or was there anything?
Speaker 1: There may have been one, but generally I said no, no,
Speaker 1: he will help us train best we want him to
Speaker 1: come and train and Look, that was one of those
Speaker 1: saving points I think for that year for me was
Speaker 1: just to have some normality around training and coming back
Speaker 1: with a for guys to you know, keep my skills
Speaker 1: alive just for the next season.
Speaker 4: Who do you speak to, like mental health wise and
Speaker 4: everything like that. Who's important for you at this stage?
Speaker 4: That's as tough a thing as you could go through.
Speaker 5: Look, the Bulldogs are really supportive.
Speaker 1: Bebo and Bob Murphy were great and probably leaning on
Speaker 1: you know, Sean Wellman was one of the coaches for us,
Speaker 1: so he's employed to help us through that train those
Speaker 1: training sessions in twenty sixteen, but relying on the players too, Hey,
Speaker 1: what are you going through?
Speaker 5: What are you thinking? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Sometimes that actually helps, just the dialogue and we've all
Speaker 1: found that with mental health is just to have a
Speaker 1: chat about it.
Speaker 3: How big a figure in this whole thing was job
Speaker 3: to think of all that he was going through personally
Speaker 3: and the way that he brought you guys together, and
Speaker 3: you know, such a berhead.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I understood at the time how
Speaker 1: big it was, but I think he put more things
Speaker 1: aside just to make sure that we're okay. So that
Speaker 1: made us feel better and he knew that, so he
Speaker 1: was That's why he was such a great leader.
Speaker 5: Put him like put stuff aside, like sacrifice for himself. Yeah,
Speaker 5: he sacrificed his own own things.
Speaker 1: And you know he's won the Brownlough but hey that's
Speaker 1: now in Jeopany And yeah, I'm sure he had a
Speaker 1: lot to go through and he's you know, he's the
Speaker 1: brunt of it. He's he's facing the media, he's facing
Speaker 1: you know, SATA, he's doing the inquiries and the interviews
Speaker 1: and things.
Speaker 5: So he really took that so we didn't have to.
Speaker 2: When he hands back the metal. How do you feel
Speaker 2: like you saw him play?
Speaker 4: You saw him day to day, You saw the work
Speaker 4: that he put in in that in that twenty twelve season.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt really I've felt annoyed for him because
Speaker 1: he definitely deserved it that year.
Speaker 5: He was the best player firsthand. He just was. He
Speaker 5: was on fire. I just yeah, so I don't want
Speaker 5: to get into it.
Speaker 1: No, it's obviously whoever got Mitchell got the Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, which is you know, whatever the AFL
Speaker 1: thinks is fair. But I still think he was the
Speaker 1: best player Demetria on here on this you know this
Speaker 1: podcast as well, and he said that if he had
Speaker 1: still been in the role, he would have found a
Speaker 1: way for Job to keep the medal.
Speaker 2: It is quite sad, isn't it that?
Speaker 5: You know? And I think he gave it back? Did
Speaker 5: he give it back? The medal? And that's what Joe's like,
Speaker 5: He will say, Yeah, he's a sportsman. He's a fair sportsman.
Speaker 3: So that season, obviously, you know it's a really late
Speaker 3: push from the Western Bulldogs, but you're not there And
Speaker 3: at what stage are you think, hang on, I'm going
Speaker 3: to miss something pretty special.
Speaker 5: In twenty sixteen, well, start of the finals.
Speaker 4: I think you can build something building.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they had this the culture, the dynamic of the players.
Speaker 1: They wanted to play for each other, and tom Boyd
Speaker 1: spoken about it. You know, he's gritting a book and
Speaker 1: a few other things, and the vibe was just different
Speaker 1: and they were never going to lose. And you know,
Speaker 1: you start thinking, oh, you know, I'm going to miss out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is you know, I should be on this team.
Speaker 1: And you know then Bob Murphy does it a cl
Speaker 1: Bob Murphy's been in the club for sixteen years. You know,
Speaker 1: and there's other players that obviously miss out, Jack Path
Speaker 1: and Mitch Wallace and you know, life moves on. But
Speaker 1: you think I would love to have played and.
Speaker 5: You would have been in that team like yeah on
Speaker 5: form absolutely, Yeah, yeah, I think I would have been
Speaker 5: And it's just sad I didn't get to play in
Speaker 5: that on the on the big stage.
Speaker 4: How connected you were you trained? I think before one
Speaker 4: of the finals, didn't you? Did you speak to them
Speaker 4: before the Hawks semi final? Was there something?
Speaker 2: But you were still well connected with the group not
Speaker 2: the Hawks?
Speaker 5: Was it the first one?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: No, I wasn't able to come back until another week
Speaker 5: or something.
Speaker 4: Yeah, did you speak to the group then when you
Speaker 4: were able to come back and yeah, well I came
Speaker 4: back and I was able to train with the group.
Speaker 5: So that was the year.
Speaker 1: It was the time frame, time frame that it was.
Speaker 1: I was able to come back and be involved with
Speaker 1: the group. I was wasn't allowed to go to the MCG.
Speaker 5: No in the rooms.
Speaker 4: No, how weird is that?
Speaker 2: So you can.
Speaker 5: It as a competition day you couldn't go, but.
Speaker 4: Training you could go to the training session when you're
Speaker 4: doing train with them at the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I trained with him the last three weeks
Speaker 1: and it was actually it was you know, I felt
Speaker 1: a part of it as well. It was actually a
Speaker 1: great experience and fortunate or unfortunate. I actually got married
Speaker 1: the day before Grand Final. How did you book it
Speaker 1: in February? And why did you book it in February?
Speaker 1: It was a quirky day. It's coming on derby days.
Speaker 1: I would have canceled it if I was playing.
Speaker 2: Football, but to get the deposit back you would have
Speaker 2: been all right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was fine. But it was one of those
Speaker 5: things I knew. I knew in my heart I.
Speaker 1: Probably was not going to play for the rest of
Speaker 1: the year. I think that decision was set and we're
Speaker 1: trying to overturn it. Peter Gordon was really instrumental in that,
Speaker 1: but he didn't didn't eventuate to overturn it. And the
Speaker 1: thing I remember was the Thursday before the Grand Final,
Speaker 1: there's ten thousand people at Whittenoval.
Speaker 5: I'm going to get to something to fix for.
Speaker 1: The wedding and I can't get out of the ground
Speaker 1: and trying to get people out of the way, and I've.
Speaker 5: Just trained and anyway, it was a it was a
Speaker 5: funny situation to be in.
Speaker 3: What's what's those twenty four hours, like you know, your
Speaker 3: wedding and then obviously watching the boys queen and where
Speaker 3: did you watch it from?
Speaker 1: Well, we had the recovery day on the Saturday at
Speaker 1: my place and we sat up at TV and look
Speaker 1: it was. It was a great day and I think
Speaker 1: the last five minutes you know they're going to win,
Speaker 1: and it was a little bit emotional and look my
Speaker 1: family around me, and it was the best place to be,
Speaker 1: to be honest, and it was. It was one of
Speaker 1: those things that I cherished that they were there and
Speaker 1: it was a little bit sad, but I'm really happy
Speaker 1: for the team.
Speaker 2: Did you catch up with the guys afterwards?
Speaker 4: Did you bring them? Did you?
Speaker 2: How was the connection there?
Speaker 5: They went to Yarivale on the Sunday and I caught
Speaker 5: up with them at eleven o'clock there.
Speaker 4: And watch your mindset there you're really happy for them,
Speaker 4: but in the back of yard in mind, you're going, yeah.
Speaker 1: I pushed that aside and I wanted to be really
Speaker 1: happy for the guys and I was just I was
Speaker 1: just happy that was at a club that just won
Speaker 1: a grand final and it was a great day.
Speaker 5: We were the great moments from that Grand Final.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the boy goal and Morris drag d and tackle
Speaker 3: and Shane Biggs and Lamp picking and you know, it
Speaker 3: was a great ground final.
Speaker 1: I just spoke to some one recently last week about
Speaker 1: it and I said it was the Shane Biggs and picking.
Speaker 5: Was that the Yeah, that was the play and that
Speaker 5: was the Shane Biggs like five repeat efforts and that
Speaker 5: really changes the dynamic of the game.
Speaker 1: And then and Sydney can sense that, I know that,
Speaker 1: and then they get a little deflated and we pounce
Speaker 1: and I think someone kicks a goal And.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that moment there was big. And the Tom Boyd
Speaker 5: moment was probviously.
Speaker 4: The extraordinary finishing.
Speaker 5: To think about it, take us through the tom Board experience.
Speaker 3: I mean, he's just extraordinary what he's doing for mental
Speaker 3: health and he's just so balanced right now. But are
Speaker 3: you're feeling that when people are saying you should take
Speaker 3: a pay card and when he's not playing great football
Speaker 3: and you know how much did the players have empathy
Speaker 3: for what he was going through even though he was
Speaker 3: on in this extraordinary salary?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a that's a conundrum, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Look I got along with Tom really well, and I
Speaker 1: think he I think he felt guilty in the end
Speaker 1: for you know, he wanted to give the money back
Speaker 1: and I think Peter Gordon said no, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a contract and time in his heart wants to give
Speaker 1: back and that's what he's doing. And look that that
Speaker 1: contract may have been big then, but it's not that
Speaker 1: big now, Like it's you know, he's won a Grand final.
Speaker 1: He's won a Grand final for the club, Like what
Speaker 1: else do you want did Buddy do? Did Buddy win
Speaker 1: a Grand final for the nine year? So you know,
Speaker 1: I mean it's paid for itself. So if anyone ever
Speaker 1: says you go, well, he won the Grand final, so
Speaker 1: that in that's in my view anyways.
Speaker 4: And it was an extraordinary grand final the club had
Speaker 4: in one one since fifty four exactly.
Speaker 2: As far as repaying, I think that it was repaid
Speaker 2: in that sense.
Speaker 5: I think it was, yeah, small small change for what
Speaker 5: the actual result was.
Speaker 3: But when you think about a career with Is and Lows,
Speaker 3: you think about the people you've met, you know, the
Speaker 3: Tom Boards of the world, that Bob Murphy's, the Brad Preuswall's,
Speaker 3: the you know, it's an extraordinary to think you've been
Speaker 3: in this, you know, this career with all these magnificent
Speaker 3: people like it, it's worth the price alone.
Speaker 1: It is it is, and the thing I do I
Speaker 1: take away from it is all those people were trying
Speaker 1: to be the best that they could be, and I
Speaker 1: took so much out of it, and I try to
Speaker 1: replicate that and even my life now, I take a
Speaker 1: lot from what Job's done, what Bob Murphy was trying
Speaker 1: to do, what Bever was trying to do, and Hurdy,
Speaker 1: I've had so many good influential people in my life
Speaker 1: that it's probably a blessing. You know, a lot of
Speaker 1: bad things obviously happened through the football career, but all
Speaker 1: in all, I.
Speaker 5: Take a lot out of it.
Speaker 1: And I'm still grateful for all the experiences that I've
Speaker 1: gotten and I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: How good would James Hurd have been if there's no
Speaker 4: supplements scandal in that sense as a coach? Could you
Speaker 4: have been as good as everyone thought he could have been.
Speaker 5: As a coach? Yeah, I definitely.
Speaker 1: He was highly motivated, really good with his strategy, and
Speaker 1: I think he could have gone a long way.
Speaker 3: Good tactically all that stuff. Like I had all the
Speaker 3: essence of what makes a great coach. Yeah, definitely. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Stephen Dank, I think you've said that you would have
Speaker 3: loved to have for him to come out and help you.
Speaker 3: If you had to speak to Stephen Dank right now,
Speaker 3: what would you say.
Speaker 1: Maybe just an underst standing of you know, did you
Speaker 1: understand did you understand what you were putting the players through?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: I think he was little blase with some of his
Speaker 1: thought processes. Did he know the rules around what you
Speaker 1: can and can't do?
Speaker 5: Maybe that, But I don't. I don't lose sleep over
Speaker 5: Stephen Dank.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you don't think about it all. You're trying
Speaker 4: not to think about it. You're probably reminded, as you said,
Speaker 4: you know, on a regular basis. Yeah, yeah, But do
Speaker 4: you portion any blame at the moment? Is that something
Speaker 4: you still think about or is that something you've well
Speaker 4: and really moved on from in terms of the af L.
Speaker 4: Have you been back to Wessendon in that sense as well?
Speaker 5: I don't. There's a lot of people to blame. You
Speaker 5: can always blame someone. I'm not. I'm not a blamer.
Speaker 5: I do move on. Yeah, I haven't been back to
Speaker 5: Essendon that much.
Speaker 1: I've been back to the Western Bulldogs for some of
Speaker 1: the functions, which has been good, but I don't I
Speaker 1: try not to hold a grade.
Speaker 2: Now, do you feel more like a Bulldog than a
Speaker 2: Bomber in that sense?
Speaker 5: Or maybe because I played there last kind of last?
Speaker 3: Yes, it feels like you don't want to be defined
Speaker 3: by It's such such a long and product, give life
Speaker 3: to live.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And you know, football almost seems like high school.
Speaker 1: It's like this artificial environment and you finish it. And
Speaker 1: I was speaking of Bob Murphy about this at the
Speaker 1: one hundredth reunion in round three, and he goes, what
Speaker 1: we're worried about? And I said, oh, glad you said it,
Speaker 1: because I don't know. It's like you're in this bubble
Speaker 1: and everyone's just it's tense, and you're trying to perform,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I think you get out and you and
Speaker 1: you breathe a sigh of relief.
Speaker 4: Yeah, tell us about your life now. You've got kids, Yeah,
Speaker 4: your businesses for kids. What if they say I want
Speaker 4: to play footy, what would you say to them?
Speaker 1: I wouldn't stop them. Yeah, it comes with its pitfalls,
Speaker 1: but that's not my decision to make. But I just
Speaker 1: try and encourage as much as I can and my kid,
Speaker 1: my son's really getting into soccer and football at the moment,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I don't know where that's going to lead,
Speaker 1: but we'll see how we go.
Speaker 2: Business wise, What does your life look like now, stew.
Speaker 1: We've got a couple of st also, Cramery's mind attends.
Speaker 1: One in Maryborough is a big store, and day Oxford in.
Speaker 5: The middle of town. There. They're great stores and we've
Speaker 5: got some really good staff. So there's we might have
Speaker 5: about sixty staff all up, and that keeps him pretty busy.
Speaker 1: And as I said before, I try and take a
Speaker 1: lot out of football and what can I make their
Speaker 1: lives easier, you know?
Speaker 5: It said, a really good culture and a standard.
Speaker 1: And I feel like then the business has performed better
Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of skills that are transferable.
Speaker 5: Proud of you of the football career. With one hundred
Speaker 5: and three games.
Speaker 1: Well Dad always says he has one hundred and three games,
Speaker 1: that's a that's quite an achievement.
Speaker 5: I said, Okay, no worries.
Speaker 1: I don't really say much about it, but look, I
Speaker 1: think I've told my wife I said, I gave it
Speaker 1: everything I had and as long as I did the
Speaker 1: best I could, that's I'm happy.
Speaker 5: And your parents through this whole, the highs and the
Speaker 5: lows and lots of what were they like. Yeah, they
Speaker 5: were good.
Speaker 1: They're very supportive and obviously it's a little tense with
Speaker 1: some of the commentary around some parents with the the
Speaker 1: third four, and yeah, they held strong. Dad's dad's a
Speaker 1: strong character and he and he supported me through it.
Speaker 1: And yeah, we're just as I said, we've got to.
Speaker 4: Move on, move on.
Speaker 5: Jy Cara, thanks for your tom Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4: This podcast is a production of Code Sports. To find
Speaker 4: out more, go to code sports dot com dot au
Speaker 4: or download the code sports app at your app store.