Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'mrick Morton and this is seven AM.
Speaker 1: There's a shadow world beneath camera that is fed by
Speaker 1: the Defense, Foreign Affairs, and security communities. It's made up
Speaker 1: of advisers who are unknown to the public, but who
Speaker 1: are hugely influential in how the government responds to our
Speaker 1: biggest geopolitical charges. Investigative journalist Margaret Silence has been given
Speaker 1: a close iron its world for decades, and recently the
Speaker 1: story of one group and of one woman stood out
Speaker 1: to her.
Speaker 2: After hearing gossip about her from several different sources, I
Speaker 2: rang her up and as nicely as I could manage,
Speaker 2: asked if she was a spy.
Speaker 1: Today. The mysterious demise of China matters why this influential
Speaker 1: group came undone and how a group of anti China
Speaker 1: politicians called the Wolverines led the attack that's coming up.
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, July tenth, Margaret, many of us might feel
Speaker 1: as if they really use this hidden words by a
Speaker 1: sort of trading state secrets in this subterranean way, especially
Speaker 1: in camera, but we might not know exactly what it
Speaker 1: looks like. Tell me about this group China matters, why
Speaker 1: did they pique your interest.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it was a very eminent, well regarded
Speaker 2: organization up until about twenty nineteen. It had a very
Speaker 2: eminent board at different times and there were senior Liberal
Speaker 2: Party figures on the board at different times. For more,
Speaker 2: I'm joined by Linda Jacobson from the think tank China Matters.
Speaker 3: Linda Jacobson, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Is it inevitable?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 2: It was founded by a Finnish woman, Australian resident and
Speaker 2: Finnish national called Linda Jacobson, who was a China expert.
Speaker 2: She spent twenty years living in China. She was first
Speaker 2: recruited to come to Australia by the Lowe Institute and
Speaker 2: then when she left LOWI she founded China Matters with
Speaker 2: some others. I think Australia has to think very carefully
Speaker 2: about all of these scenarios. How is Australia going to react?
Speaker 2: Those decisions need to be made now. I think it's
Speaker 2: fair to say that China Matters was pro engagement with China.
Speaker 2: Some people think we will be at war with China
Speaker 2: within five years, or at least that that's a real possibility.
Speaker 2: But whether that's true or not, we're going to be
Speaker 2: dealing with China for a long while. It's o major
Speaker 2: trading partner, the underpinning of much of our wealth, and
Speaker 2: of course you know, a very large and currently aggressive neighbor.
Speaker 2: So starting there, they were trying to contribute to a
Speaker 2: conversation which would allow Australia to make better, as they
Speaker 2: saw it, better policy decisions in how to deal with
Speaker 2: the relationship. So I set about to try and find
Speaker 2: out the reasons why China Matters was set upon by
Speaker 2: the Morrison government in twenty nine, nineteen and twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: and ultimately it finally closed up shop earlier this year.
Speaker 2: I started with a genuine sense of curiosity. This looks strange,
Speaker 2: what's gone on here? And so I was trying to
Speaker 2: find out why, why did this happen? Why was it
Speaker 2: set upon in this way?
Speaker 1: And of course you have a finally attuned spider sense
Speaker 1: for these types of stories. I think you must have
Speaker 1: picked up on some kind of gurgling that something was
Speaker 1: going on in China Matters, and then you picked that thread.
Speaker 2: What did you start to uncover? Well, there was a
Speaker 2: big change, of course, in perceptions of China. You might
Speaker 2: remember back in John Howard's prime ministership. The mantra was
Speaker 2: that we could both have America as our main security partner,
Speaker 2: and we could also have China as our main trading partner,
Speaker 2: and that we could manage all this without having to choose.
Speaker 5: We are very desirous of having as much Chinese investment,
Speaker 5: both equity and direct investment as possible, and that is
Speaker 5: a point that I made to the Chinese leadership during
Speaker 5: my discussions.
Speaker 2: But the pushback against China and the change in the
Speaker 2: climate began under Malcolm Turnbull's Prime ministership.
Speaker 6: What we need to ensure is that the rise of
Speaker 6: China which is happening, nothing's going to stop that, and
Speaker 6: any time soon is if you like, conducted in a
Speaker 6: manner that does not disturb the security and the relative
Speaker 6: harmony of the region upon which China's prosperity depends.
Speaker 2: Now, you remember we banned Hiwai from having a role
Speaker 2: in building five G in Australia, and then there was
Speaker 2: a new foreign interference legislation which required universities, for example,
Speaker 2: to register the relationships so they had with foreign researchers
Speaker 2: and foreign organizations. This was a big shake up. But
Speaker 2: I spoke to Malcolm Turnbull and he was not responsible
Speaker 2: for the campaign against China Matters. He said, I don't
Speaker 2: know what happened. I don't know what went wrong. Don't
Speaker 2: ask me.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: When he left the Prime ministership and Scott Morrison took over,
Speaker 2: China Matters was still flying high. And indeed in twenty
Speaker 2: eighteen they did a study tour of China and people
Speaker 2: like Julian Lesser were on that. Richard Miles, who's now
Speaker 2: of course Minister of Defense, all of whom later on
Speaker 2: provided testimonials to China Matters website saying how valuable this was.
Speaker 2: That was September twenty eighteen, that the end of the
Speaker 2: Golden Nearer, as it turned out.
Speaker 1: Coming up after the break, a group of anti China
Speaker 1: politicians known as the Wolverines take on China Matters. Margaret,
Speaker 1: China Matters was this well regarded organization the advice on China,
Speaker 1: and it was pro engagement, which didn't go down all
Speaker 1: that well with some politician in Canberra. Tell me about
Speaker 1: the Wolverines.
Speaker 6: Is it time to give up the Wolverine? Theatrics that
Speaker 6: you're a part of with other members of.
Speaker 3: Parliament here in the Wolverines was established for a very
Speaker 3: good purpose, which is.
Speaker 2: The Wolverines were a group that spanned Labor and the Coalition,
Speaker 2: but they were established to speak up against China's aggression
Speaker 2: and interference or attempts at interference in Australian politics.
Speaker 3: To undergo the bipartisan support for a strong Australian foreign
Speaker 3: policy that stands up for our national interest and our values.
Speaker 2: I think they, at one stage, and I think they've
Speaker 2: stopped doing this, put claw marks on their doors to
Speaker 2: sort of signal membership of this group. And the name
Speaker 2: Wolverines was a reference to a nineteen eighty four movie
Speaker 2: which I confess I didn't watch as part of my research.
Speaker 2: It's Scott Patrick Swayze in it and Charlie Sheen the
Speaker 2: movie Red Dawn, in which I gag our high schoo
Speaker 2: a football stars thwought a Soviet invasion of the United States.
Speaker 2: Two of the most prominent people among the Wolverines on
Speaker 2: the Coalition side were Senators Andrew Hasty and James Patterson,
Speaker 2: and they were also the names that were most frequently
Speaker 2: mentioned to me as the people behind the attacks on
Speaker 2: China Matters, and.
Speaker 1: China Matters actually invited two of the Wolverines to China.
Speaker 2: They did, and they agreed to go. But then when
Speaker 2: they put in for visas for the Wolverines, that's for
Speaker 2: Senators Hasty and Patterson, the Chinese embassy indicated that it
Speaker 2: wasn't a convenient time for those particular gentlemen to visit.
Speaker 2: So that was embarrassing for everyone because the news leaked.
Speaker 1: And then in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, China Matters is
Speaker 1: defunded by the Morrison government and you start looking into why,
Speaker 1: and you come across this name that keeps coming up.
Speaker 1: A public servant of Chinese background.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yung Jiang. People may remember when she appeared before
Speaker 2: a Senate committee and Senator Eric Abbetts, also a Wolverine,
Speaker 2: was on that committee and he demanded of Yongxiang and
Speaker 2: another Chinese Australian who was appearing with her, that they
Speaker 2: condemned the Communist Party of China.
Speaker 4: Can I ask each of the three witnesses to very
Speaker 4: briefly tell me whether they are willing to unconditionally condemn
Speaker 4: the Communists at the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship.
Speaker 2: Before they could sort of say what they had to
Speaker 2: say to the Senate committee.
Speaker 1: Critics have accused him of prejudice and race baiting and
Speaker 1: say that it's part of a concerning trend in rhetoric
Speaker 1: about China.
Speaker 2: This is a request that wasn't made of any of
Speaker 2: the Caucasian people. Appearing before that Senate committee, there's quite
Speaker 2: an outcry at the time. Abbetts was widely condemned. Scott
Speaker 2: Morrison said the only pledge anybody should have to make
Speaker 2: is the one they make when they get citizenship, which
Speaker 2: is loyalty to Australia obviously, so there was quite a
Speaker 2: storm about that at the time. Anyway, Yung Jung was
Speaker 2: the person at the center of that controversy. But in
Speaker 2: this case, many years later, and indeed after the main
Speaker 2: attacks on China Matters, she got a fellowship that was
Speaker 2: in partnership with China Matters and did some research in China.
Speaker 2: As a result of that fellowship. When I started asking
Speaker 2: questions around this strange community, her name was raised with me.
Speaker 2: And as I say, there's a lot of gossip in
Speaker 2: this land as somebody who was a person under suspicion.
Speaker 2: I was told that there had been an ASIO investigation
Speaker 2: into her. Nobody knew the result of that investigation, or
Speaker 2: nobody I spoke to in any case, but it was
Speaker 2: suggested to me that that was one of the security
Speaker 2: concerns put those words in inverted commas, which was the
Speaker 2: reason part of the reason for the attacks on China
Speaker 2: matters and why it was denied DGR status.
Speaker 1: Did you manage to track her down?
Speaker 2: I did, yes, after hearing gossip about her from several
Speaker 2: different sources. I rang her up and as nicely as
Speaker 2: I could manage, asked her if she was a spy.
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because I'm nervous because I know that that's
Speaker 1: where this has got to in this.
Speaker 2: Country, right, Yeah, not a conversation that I expect have
Speaker 2: very often. I have to say. All I can say
Speaker 2: is if that she is a person advancing foreign interference
Speaker 2: or indeed a spy, she's got very strange spycraft, because
Speaker 2: she spoke to me about these suspicions very openly and
Speaker 2: consented to have the material that's in my article published,
Speaker 2: which is, you know, strange.
Speaker 7: Indeed, thank you, thank you, thank you for the introduction,
Speaker 7: and so great to see everyone here.
Speaker 2: I should also say that Yung Jiang, apart from being
Speaker 2: a public servant, she's also an academic. You know, She's
Speaker 2: participated in public forums, democratic forums.
Speaker 7: This was the thinking behind the questioning daringm id send
Speaker 7: a hearing experience where three Australians of Chinese background were
Speaker 7: asked to condemn the Chinese Communist Party for no reason
Speaker 7: other than they have a Chinese background.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: It all seems to come back to these security concerns
Speaker 1: in the comments, as you say, you know what were
Speaker 1: those concerns?
Speaker 2: Exactly? I mean government is perfectly entitled to fund or
Speaker 2: not to fund organizations. Of course, not every organization that
Speaker 2: would like to be funded gets funding. And when I
Speaker 2: was exploring why, I was told I have got three
Speaker 2: main sources for this. But the first one told me
Speaker 2: it was nothing to do with the quality of the work,
Speaker 2: nothing to do with any individuals, no suggestion they were
Speaker 2: taking money from Beijing or anything of that sort, but
Speaker 2: nevertheless that it was a security concern. Now, I squeezed
Speaker 2: hard on this particular lemon and didn't get much clarity
Speaker 2: about what it was. As I said, they made it
Speaker 2: clear there was no suggestion they were in the pay
Speaker 2: of Beijing, or that there was any particular individual who
Speaker 2: was a problem. Rather, the security concern was something about
Speaker 2: the way they operated, something about the business model. This
Speaker 2: is really unclear because how did they operate. Well, they
Speaker 2: took goment funding up until twenty nineteen, twenty twenty and
Speaker 2: provided briefings and reports and so on. In return for that.
Speaker 2: They also got some funding from private businesses who had
Speaker 2: interests in China, but that was all pretty transparent. So yeah,
Speaker 2: what was this security concern? Well, as far as I
Speaker 2: can tell, it seems to be the meetings and the
Speaker 2: study tours and the fact that people which included parliamentarians
Speaker 2: and Sinney bureaucrats and business people might meet members of
Speaker 2: the Communist Party and might be subject to people who
Speaker 2: were actively trying to interfere or influence Australian politics. That
Speaker 2: seems to be it the security concerns or perceived security concerns.
Speaker 2: I described them in the article as sort of columns
Speaker 2: of smoke. When I actually try to grasp at them,
Speaker 2: and I interviewed a number of people, including Peter Carlill,
Speaker 2: who's currently the chair of the Parliamentary committee that oversees
Speaker 2: the Security Services, there isn't really anything definite there, it
Speaker 2: seems to me, so I'm not convinced.
Speaker 1: Basically, at the end of all of this, I mean,
Speaker 1: you set out to partially I guess explore this spooky
Speaker 1: underground network of spires and the national security apparatus, and
Speaker 1: of course discovered more columns of smoke. I guess does
Speaker 1: it tell you anything about the way that you know
Speaker 1: these forces are shaping our politics as they currently stand.
Speaker 2: Well in this episode, and I'm not going to suggest
Speaker 2: that this is represented in one hopes it's not representative
Speaker 2: of the whole lot in this episode. It seems to
Speaker 2: me that we've jumped at shadows and that a source
Speaker 2: of an alternative point of view on China. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying you have to agree with it. It should be
Speaker 2: up for criticism like anything else, but a source of
Speaker 2: an alternative argument. An alternative point of view was made
Speaker 2: non viable by the deliberate actions of government with the
Speaker 2: death of China Matters. We are still incredibly thin for
Speaker 2: real depth of understanding of China in the foreign policy
Speaker 2: and defense community. There's something worryingly autocratic about that, particularly
Speaker 2: given that we are supposed to be combating an autocratic China.
Speaker 1: Margaret Simon's I love your work, love your journalism. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Rick. Also in the news, Minister for Indigenous Australians. Linda
Speaker 1: Bernie has said that only long term solutions can solve
Speaker 1: the ongoing violence and unrest in Ourice Springs. Her comments
Speaker 1: come as police instituted a snap three day curfew after
Speaker 1: off duty police officers we're allegedly assaulted over the weekend.
Speaker 1: Police are enforcing the lockdown and using new powers given
Speaker 1: to them in May in a bid to stop youth
Speaker 1: crime in the city. Bernie said that while the curfew
Speaker 1: is important, quote, you can't arrest your way out of
Speaker 1: this and the community and government need to work together
Speaker 1: and a new Anti Semitism Envoy will work with the
Speaker 1: government to address the increasing targeting of Jewish people in Australia.
Speaker 1: After October seven, standing outside the Jewish Museum in Sydney,
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Anthony and Albaneze said the Envoy would help
Speaker 1: increase social cohesion in Australia and that a Special Envoy
Speaker 1: on Islabophobia will also soon be appointed. The new role
Speaker 1: was welcomed by the Coalition and the Executive Council of
Speaker 1: Australian Jury. The Jewish Council of Australia, however, expressed concern
Speaker 1: that the Anti Semitism Envoy might risk inflaming to visions
Speaker 1: by fouling to distinguished between Jewishness and support for Israel.
Speaker 2: That's all for.
Speaker 1: Today and I'm Rick Morton. This is seven am.
Speaker 2: See you tomorrow.