WEBVTT - The China think tank attacked by Wolverines

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'mrick Morton and this is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a shadow world beneath camera that is fed by

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<v Speaker 1>the Defense, Foreign Affairs, and security communities. It's made up

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<v Speaker 1>of advisers who are unknown to the public, but who

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<v Speaker 1>are hugely influential in how the government responds to our

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<v Speaker 1>biggest geopolitical charges. Investigative journalist Margaret Silence has been given

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<v Speaker 1>a close iron its world for decades, and recently the

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<v Speaker 1>story of one group and of one woman stood out

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<v Speaker 1>to her.

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<v Speaker 2>After hearing gossip about her from several different sources, I

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<v Speaker 2>rang her up and as nicely as I could manage,

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<v Speaker 2>asked if she was a spy.

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<v Speaker 1>Today. The mysterious demise of China matters why this influential

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<v Speaker 1>group came undone and how a group of anti China

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<v Speaker 1>politicians called the Wolverines led the attack that's coming up.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Wednesday, July tenth, Margaret, many of us might feel

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<v Speaker 1>as if they really use this hidden words by a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of trading state secrets in this subterranean way, especially

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<v Speaker 1>in camera, but we might not know exactly what it

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<v Speaker 1>looks like. Tell me about this group China matters, why

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<v Speaker 1>did they pique your interest.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, it was a very eminent, well regarded

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<v Speaker 2>organization up until about twenty nineteen. It had a very

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<v Speaker 2>eminent board at different times and there were senior Liberal

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<v Speaker 2>Party figures on the board at different times. For more,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm joined by Linda Jacobson from the think tank China Matters.

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<v Speaker 3>Linda Jacobson, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it inevitable?

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<v Speaker 4>So?

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<v Speaker 2>It was founded by a Finnish woman, Australian resident and

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<v Speaker 2>Finnish national called Linda Jacobson, who was a China expert.

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<v Speaker 2>She spent twenty years living in China. She was first

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<v Speaker 2>recruited to come to Australia by the Lowe Institute and

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<v Speaker 2>then when she left LOWI she founded China Matters with

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<v Speaker 2>some others. I think Australia has to think very carefully

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<v Speaker 2>about all of these scenarios. How is Australia going to react?

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<v Speaker 2>Those decisions need to be made now. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>fair to say that China Matters was pro engagement with China.

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<v Speaker 2>Some people think we will be at war with China

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<v Speaker 2>within five years, or at least that that's a real possibility.

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<v Speaker 2>But whether that's true or not, we're going to be

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<v Speaker 2>dealing with China for a long while. It's o major

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<v Speaker 2>trading partner, the underpinning of much of our wealth, and

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<v Speaker 2>of course you know, a very large and currently aggressive neighbor.

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<v Speaker 2>So starting there, they were trying to contribute to a

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<v Speaker 2>conversation which would allow Australia to make better, as they

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<v Speaker 2>saw it, better policy decisions in how to deal with

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<v Speaker 2>the relationship. So I set about to try and find

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<v Speaker 2>out the reasons why China Matters was set upon by

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<v Speaker 2>the Morrison government in twenty nine, nineteen and twenty twenty,

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<v Speaker 2>and ultimately it finally closed up shop earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 2>I started with a genuine sense of curiosity. This looks strange,

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<v Speaker 2>what's gone on here? And so I was trying to

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<v Speaker 2>find out why, why did this happen? Why was it

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<v Speaker 2>set upon in this way?

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<v Speaker 1>And of course you have a finally attuned spider sense

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<v Speaker 1>for these types of stories. I think you must have

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<v Speaker 1>picked up on some kind of gurgling that something was

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<v Speaker 1>going on in China Matters, and then you picked that thread.

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<v Speaker 2>What did you start to uncover? Well, there was a

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<v Speaker 2>big change, of course, in perceptions of China. You might

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<v Speaker 2>remember back in John Howard's prime ministership. The mantra was

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<v Speaker 2>that we could both have America as our main security partner,

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<v Speaker 2>and we could also have China as our main trading partner,

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<v Speaker 2>and that we could manage all this without having to choose.

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<v Speaker 5>We are very desirous of having as much Chinese investment,

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<v Speaker 5>both equity and direct investment as possible, and that is

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<v Speaker 5>a point that I made to the Chinese leadership during

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<v Speaker 5>my discussions.

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<v Speaker 2>But the pushback against China and the change in the

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<v Speaker 2>climate began under Malcolm Turnbull's Prime ministership.

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<v Speaker 6>What we need to ensure is that the rise of

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<v Speaker 6>China which is happening, nothing's going to stop that, and

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<v Speaker 6>any time soon is if you like, conducted in a

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<v Speaker 6>manner that does not disturb the security and the relative

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<v Speaker 6>harmony of the region upon which China's prosperity depends.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, you remember we banned Hiwai from having a role

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<v Speaker 2>in building five G in Australia, and then there was

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<v Speaker 2>a new foreign interference legislation which required universities, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>to register the relationships so they had with foreign researchers

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<v Speaker 2>and foreign organizations. This was a big shake up. But

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke to Malcolm Turnbull and he was not responsible

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<v Speaker 2>for the campaign against China Matters. He said, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what happened. I don't know what went wrong. Don't

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<v Speaker 2>ask me.

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<v Speaker 1>So.

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<v Speaker 2>When he left the Prime ministership and Scott Morrison took over,

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<v Speaker 2>China Matters was still flying high. And indeed in twenty

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen they did a study tour of China and people

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<v Speaker 2>like Julian Lesser were on that. Richard Miles, who's now

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<v Speaker 2>of course Minister of Defense, all of whom later on

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<v Speaker 2>provided testimonials to China Matters website saying how valuable this was.

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<v Speaker 2>That was September twenty eighteen, that the end of the

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<v Speaker 2>Golden Nearer, as it turned out.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break, a group of anti China

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<v Speaker 1>politicians known as the Wolverines take on China Matters. Margaret,

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<v Speaker 1>China Matters was this well regarded organization the advice on China,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was pro engagement, which didn't go down all

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<v Speaker 1>that well with some politician in Canberra. Tell me about

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<v Speaker 1>the Wolverines.

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<v Speaker 6>Is it time to give up the Wolverine? Theatrics that

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<v Speaker 6>you're a part of with other members of.

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<v Speaker 3>Parliament here in the Wolverines was established for a very

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<v Speaker 3>good purpose, which is.

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<v Speaker 2>The Wolverines were a group that spanned Labor and the Coalition,

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<v Speaker 2>but they were established to speak up against China's aggression

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<v Speaker 2>and interference or attempts at interference in Australian politics.

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<v Speaker 3>To undergo the bipartisan support for a strong Australian foreign

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<v Speaker 3>policy that stands up for our national interest and our values.

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<v Speaker 2>I think they, at one stage, and I think they've

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<v Speaker 2>stopped doing this, put claw marks on their doors to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of signal membership of this group. And the name

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<v Speaker 2>Wolverines was a reference to a nineteen eighty four movie

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<v Speaker 2>which I confess I didn't watch as part of my research.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Scott Patrick Swayze in it and Charlie Sheen the

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<v Speaker 2>movie Red Dawn, in which I gag our high schoo

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<v Speaker 2>a football stars thwought a Soviet invasion of the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>Two of the most prominent people among the Wolverines on

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<v Speaker 2>the Coalition side were Senators Andrew Hasty and James Patterson,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were also the names that were most frequently

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned to me as the people behind the attacks on

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<v Speaker 2>China Matters, and.

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<v Speaker 1>China Matters actually invited two of the Wolverines to China.

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<v Speaker 2>They did, and they agreed to go. But then when

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<v Speaker 2>they put in for visas for the Wolverines, that's for

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<v Speaker 2>Senators Hasty and Patterson, the Chinese embassy indicated that it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't a convenient time for those particular gentlemen to visit.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was embarrassing for everyone because the news leaked.

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<v Speaker 1>And then in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, China Matters is

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<v Speaker 1>defunded by the Morrison government and you start looking into why,

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<v Speaker 1>and you come across this name that keeps coming up.

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<v Speaker 1>A public servant of Chinese background.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, Yung Jiang. People may remember when she appeared before

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<v Speaker 2>a Senate committee and Senator Eric Abbetts, also a Wolverine,

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<v Speaker 2>was on that committee and he demanded of Yongxiang and

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<v Speaker 2>another Chinese Australian who was appearing with her, that they

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<v Speaker 2>condemned the Communist Party of China.

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<v Speaker 4>Can I ask each of the three witnesses to very

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<v Speaker 4>briefly tell me whether they are willing to unconditionally condemn

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<v Speaker 4>the Communists at the Chinese Communist Party dictatorship.

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<v Speaker 2>Before they could sort of say what they had to

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<v Speaker 2>say to the Senate committee.

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<v Speaker 1>Critics have accused him of prejudice and race baiting and

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<v Speaker 1>say that it's part of a concerning trend in rhetoric

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<v Speaker 1>about China.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a request that wasn't made of any of

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<v Speaker 2>the Caucasian people. Appearing before that Senate committee, there's quite

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<v Speaker 2>an outcry at the time. Abbetts was widely condemned. Scott

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<v Speaker 2>Morrison said the only pledge anybody should have to make

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<v Speaker 2>is the one they make when they get citizenship, which

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<v Speaker 2>is loyalty to Australia obviously, so there was quite a

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<v Speaker 2>storm about that at the time. Anyway, Yung Jung was

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<v Speaker 2>the person at the center of that controversy. But in

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<v Speaker 2>this case, many years later, and indeed after the main

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<v Speaker 2>attacks on China Matters, she got a fellowship that was

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<v Speaker 2>in partnership with China Matters and did some research in China.

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<v Speaker 2>As a result of that fellowship. When I started asking

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<v Speaker 2>questions around this strange community, her name was raised with me.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I say, there's a lot of gossip in

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<v Speaker 2>this land as somebody who was a person under suspicion.

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<v Speaker 2>I was told that there had been an ASIO investigation

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<v Speaker 2>into her. Nobody knew the result of that investigation, or

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<v Speaker 2>nobody I spoke to in any case, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>suggested to me that that was one of the security

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<v Speaker 2>concerns put those words in inverted commas, which was the

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<v Speaker 2>reason part of the reason for the attacks on China

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<v Speaker 2>matters and why it was denied DGR status.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you manage to track her down?

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<v Speaker 2>I did, yes, after hearing gossip about her from several

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<v Speaker 2>different sources. I rang her up and as nicely as

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<v Speaker 2>I could manage, asked her if she was a spy.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm laughing because I'm nervous because I know that that's

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<v Speaker 1>where this has got to in this.

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<v Speaker 2>Country, right, Yeah, not a conversation that I expect have

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<v Speaker 2>very often. I have to say. All I can say

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<v Speaker 2>is if that she is a person advancing foreign interference

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<v Speaker 2>or indeed a spy, she's got very strange spycraft, because

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<v Speaker 2>she spoke to me about these suspicions very openly and

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<v Speaker 2>consented to have the material that's in my article published,

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<v Speaker 2>which is, you know, strange.

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<v Speaker 7>Indeed, thank you, thank you, thank you for the introduction,

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<v Speaker 7>and so great to see everyone here.

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<v Speaker 2>I should also say that Yung Jiang, apart from being

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<v Speaker 2>a public servant, she's also an academic. You know, She's

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<v Speaker 2>participated in public forums, democratic forums.

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<v Speaker 7>This was the thinking behind the questioning daringm id send

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<v Speaker 7>a hearing experience where three Australians of Chinese background were

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<v Speaker 7>asked to condemn the Chinese Communist Party for no reason

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<v Speaker 7>other than they have a Chinese background.

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<v Speaker 6>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>It all seems to come back to these security concerns

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<v Speaker 1>in the comments, as you say, you know what were

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<v Speaker 1>those concerns?

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly? I mean government is perfectly entitled to fund or

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<v Speaker 2>not to fund organizations. Of course, not every organization that

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<v Speaker 2>would like to be funded gets funding. And when I

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<v Speaker 2>was exploring why, I was told I have got three

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<v Speaker 2>main sources for this. But the first one told me

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<v Speaker 2>it was nothing to do with the quality of the work,

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<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with any individuals, no suggestion they were

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<v Speaker 2>taking money from Beijing or anything of that sort, but

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<v Speaker 2>nevertheless that it was a security concern. Now, I squeezed

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<v Speaker 2>hard on this particular lemon and didn't get much clarity

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<v Speaker 2>about what it was. As I said, they made it

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<v Speaker 2>clear there was no suggestion they were in the pay

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<v Speaker 2>of Beijing, or that there was any particular individual who

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<v Speaker 2>was a problem. Rather, the security concern was something about

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<v Speaker 2>the way they operated, something about the business model. This

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<v Speaker 2>is really unclear because how did they operate. Well, they

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<v Speaker 2>took goment funding up until twenty nineteen, twenty twenty and

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<v Speaker 2>provided briefings and reports and so on. In return for that.

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<v Speaker 2>They also got some funding from private businesses who had

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<v Speaker 2>interests in China, but that was all pretty transparent. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>what was this security concern? Well, as far as I

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<v Speaker 2>can tell, it seems to be the meetings and the

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<v Speaker 2>study tours and the fact that people which included parliamentarians

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<v Speaker 2>and Sinney bureaucrats and business people might meet members of

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<v Speaker 2>the Communist Party and might be subject to people who

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<v Speaker 2>were actively trying to interfere or influence Australian politics. That

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<v Speaker 2>seems to be it the security concerns or perceived security concerns.

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<v Speaker 2>I described them in the article as sort of columns

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<v Speaker 2>of smoke. When I actually try to grasp at them,

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<v Speaker 2>and I interviewed a number of people, including Peter Carlill,

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<v Speaker 2>who's currently the chair of the Parliamentary committee that oversees

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<v Speaker 2>the Security Services, there isn't really anything definite there, it

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<v Speaker 2>seems to me, so I'm not convinced.

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<v Speaker 1>Basically, at the end of all of this, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you set out to partially I guess explore this spooky

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<v Speaker 1>underground network of spires and the national security apparatus, and

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<v Speaker 1>of course discovered more columns of smoke. I guess does

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<v Speaker 1>it tell you anything about the way that you know

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<v Speaker 1>these forces are shaping our politics as they currently stand.

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<v Speaker 2>Well in this episode, and I'm not going to suggest

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<v Speaker 2>that this is represented in one hopes it's not representative

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<v Speaker 2>of the whole lot in this episode. It seems to

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<v Speaker 2>me that we've jumped at shadows and that a source

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<v Speaker 2>of an alternative point of view on China. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>saying you have to agree with it. It should be

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<v Speaker 2>up for criticism like anything else, but a source of

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.920
<v Speaker 2>an alternative argument. An alternative point of view was made

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<v Speaker 2>non viable by the deliberate actions of government with the

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<v Speaker 2>death of China Matters. We are still incredibly thin for

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<v Speaker 2>real depth of understanding of China in the foreign policy

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<v Speaker 2>and defense community. There's something worryingly autocratic about that, particularly

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<v Speaker 2>given that we are supposed to be combating an autocratic China.

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret Simon's I love your work, love your journalism. Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Rick. Also in the news, Minister for Indigenous Australians. Linda

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<v Speaker 1>Bernie has said that only long term solutions can solve

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<v Speaker 1>the ongoing violence and unrest in Ourice Springs. Her comments

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<v Speaker 1>come as police instituted a snap three day curfew after

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<v Speaker 1>off duty police officers we're allegedly assaulted over the weekend.

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<v Speaker 1>Police are enforcing the lockdown and using new powers given

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<v Speaker 1>to them in May in a bid to stop youth

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<v Speaker 1>crime in the city. Bernie said that while the curfew

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<v Speaker 1>is important, quote, you can't arrest your way out of

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<v Speaker 1>this and the community and government need to work together

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<v Speaker 1>and a new Anti Semitism Envoy will work with the

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<v Speaker 1>government to address the increasing targeting of Jewish people in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>After October seven, standing outside the Jewish Museum in Sydney,

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<v Speaker 1>Prime Minister Anthony and Albaneze said the Envoy would help

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<v Speaker 1>increase social cohesion in Australia and that a Special Envoy

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<v Speaker 1>on Islabophobia will also soon be appointed. The new role

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<v Speaker 1>was welcomed by the Coalition and the Executive Council of

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<v Speaker 1>Australian Jury. The Jewish Council of Australia, however, expressed concern

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<v Speaker 1>that the Anti Semitism Envoy might risk inflaming to visions

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<v Speaker 1>by fouling to distinguished between Jewishness and support for Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>That's all for.

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<v Speaker 1>Today and I'm Rick Morton. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 2>See you tomorrow.