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Speaker 1: Appodjay production.

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Speaker 2: So everyone, welcome back to the Missing Matter today. I'm

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Speaker 2: very privileged to be joined by doctor Sarah Wayland, a

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Speaker 2: researcher professor of social work. Sarah has decades of experience working, supporting,

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Speaker 2: and researching the lived experience of distress and trauma, particularly

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Speaker 2: in this Missing space, and I'd like to welcome her

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Speaker 2: today to the Missing Matter podcast.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Sarah, Thanks so much, Sally.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to bring you on today, Sarah because

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Speaker 2: of your extensive work in the Missing Space, with the

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Speaker 2: hope that you can share some further insight into what

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Speaker 2: you understand it means to be living in the missing world.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about your background

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Speaker 2: and what you've been doing over that last thirty.

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Speaker 3: Years of course, and also whenever I think about when

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Speaker 3: I actually started working in Missing it's like only a

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Speaker 3: moment in time, but it has been a really long time,

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Speaker 3: and I think that that has kept me really curious

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Speaker 3: and made me always think about what else we need

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Speaker 3: to do rather than what have we done? So by background,

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Speaker 3: I'm a social worker. I became a social worker in

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Speaker 3: the late nineties, and lots of social workers because I

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Speaker 3: teach a lot of them. Now, I finished my degree

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Speaker 3: and I didn't really have a strong sense about what

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do. It had just been something that

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Speaker 3: I'd been interested in, but I guess I hadn't really

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Speaker 3: switched on my sense of what I could do in

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Speaker 3: terms of the work that I chose to do. So,

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Speaker 3: like lots of young people, I wandered around for a

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Speaker 3: few years, did a lot of work in child protection

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Speaker 3: and domestic violence, both here in Australia and overseas. Social

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Speaker 3: worker is a great degree to travel with. Everyone needs

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Speaker 3: a social worker, and when I finally came back to

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Speaker 3: Australia about five years later, I can remember it as

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Speaker 3: clear as anything and think that it's a bit like

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Speaker 3: you know that Gwyneth Paltrow movie Sliding Doors. You know

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Speaker 3: where you have this moment where you look back and

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Speaker 3: you can see that a small decision that you made

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Speaker 3: really shapes the complete way in which your life will

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Speaker 3: pan out. And so I was working on a crisis

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Speaker 3: line with the Domestic Violence Service in New South Wales.

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Speaker 3: Was on the night shift and we used to work

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Speaker 3: by ourselves on the night shift, and it was back

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Speaker 3: in the olden days where jobs were advertised in the

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Speaker 3: newspaper and there was a job that was for twelve

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Speaker 3: weeks working in a newly funded service for New South

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Speaker 3: Wales Attorney Generals called the Families and Friends of Missing

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Speaker 3: Persons Unit, which these days is now called the Families

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Speaker 3: and Friends of Missing Person's Service. I had a background

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Speaker 3: in working with people that were experiencing sudden and traumatic loss,

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Speaker 3: but not in the way that missing persons presents. So

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Speaker 3: the bonus for me in applying for that job, first

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Speaker 3: of all, I was a young person, so a twelve

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Speaker 3: week contract was fine for me to think about is

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Speaker 3: that they indicated in the job ad that you didn't

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Speaker 3: have to have experience working with families of missing people

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Speaker 3: because it was the very first service of its kind,

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Speaker 3: but that it needed to be somebody that understood grief

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Speaker 3: and loss but also was able to I guess, co

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Speaker 3: design or co construct what the service could be with

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Speaker 3: the families because it was so new. So I went

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Speaker 3: along had the interview, really connected with the manager of

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Speaker 3: the service, Leoni Jakes, who had just done a Churchill

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Speaker 3: fellowship to look at how to set up the service.

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Speaker 3: She traveled internationally and I got the job, and the

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Speaker 3: very first day on my job there was a book

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Speaker 3: on my desk that was Pauline Boss's book Ambiguous Loss,

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Speaker 3: and that was basically my training, a small book that

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Speaker 3: talked about the American approach to acknowledging ambiguous loss, and

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Speaker 3: a whole heap of families that had already called and

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Speaker 3: left their details because they wanted somebody to call them back.

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Speaker 3: So that started the job, and within a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks we had about thirty families that we were working with,

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Speaker 3: and the position then got extended and extended, and after

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Speaker 3: a couple of years became a permanent role. So I've

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Speaker 3: been working in missing since that time, and working alongside

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Speaker 3: families and really thinking about not just what I could

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Speaker 3: deliver to them one to one in the counseling room,

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Speaker 3: but I recognized really quickly that what I was learning

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Speaker 3: from them needed to also be shared with other people,

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Speaker 3: not in terms of my profile, but about what it

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Speaker 3: meant to collect stories and then share them with others,

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Speaker 3: because I knew, given this was a new South Wales

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Speaker 3: only service, that other states and territories needed some awareness

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Speaker 3: about what it meant after someone was reported missing to

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Speaker 3: the police.

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Speaker 1: So I've been in the field since then.

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Speaker 3: I eventually moved on from that direct service delivery after

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Speaker 3: almost ten years and decided to start my PhD and

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Speaker 3: since then have been working in the university research space

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Speaker 3: because I recognized that you can only get so far

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Speaker 3: talking to other service providers. Making sure that I contributed

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Speaker 3: to the evidence base has kind of led me to

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Speaker 3: where I am today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you've done amazing things, like I've been reading

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Speaker 2: up about you as well, like to get some background

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Speaker 2: into what you have done pre me meeting you. It

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Speaker 2: was like three years ago we met in person in Melbourne,

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Speaker 2: and I feel like that time has just flown because

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Speaker 2: I think we were just I was in the inquest

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Speaker 2: or we'd pause the inquest and it was just my

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Speaker 2: head was spinning a million miles an hour. But we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about it that.

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Speaker 1: I can remember that really clearly.

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Speaker 2: I remember when I first stumbled across your name actually,

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Speaker 2: and I was in when I was reading my brief

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Speaker 2: of evidence. Your name popped up on a handwritten document

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Speaker 2: with a reference to Ashton's Removals, which is a REMOVALSS

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Speaker 2: company on the Gold Coast, and it was in relation

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Speaker 2: to my mum's missing belongings and her shipping container. And

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Speaker 2: I didn't know who you were at that time, so

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Speaker 2: it meant I had no reference to that. I just

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Speaker 2: assumed that you maybe worked for missing persons or something,

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Speaker 2: or rather in that field. Can you tell us a

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Speaker 2: little bit about when you first heard about my story

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Speaker 2: or about Mum's story.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting, you know.

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Speaker 3: I never take for granted that you don't even have

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Speaker 3: to interact sometimes with families of missing people across Australia,

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Speaker 3: but there's often these little connection points that means you

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Speaker 3: cross the life of somebody without sometimes ever meeting them,

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Speaker 3: and it's always really interesting for me. And I talked

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Speaker 3: to my social work students about this a lot, about

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Speaker 3: recognizing the power of those micro moments and how you

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Speaker 3: can always think about how to better support people so

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Speaker 3: I can remember your name really clearly. I often think

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Speaker 3: about my career like lots of women do, in terms

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Speaker 3: of the ages of my kids at the time.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's a good time.

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Speaker 1: Exactly.

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Speaker 3: My timeline of my career is not my career, but

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Speaker 3: at what point was on maternity level? You know, what

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Speaker 3: were my kids in daycare or school by then? So

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Speaker 3: my daughter's about to turn twenty this year, and I'm

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Speaker 3: pretty sure she was two or three at the time,

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Speaker 3: so it's a long time ago. I was working for

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Speaker 3: the Australian Federal Police at that time it was called

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Speaker 3: the National Missing Persons Unit, and I was secondered from

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Speaker 3: my job at New South Wales Attorney Generals because I'd

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Speaker 3: done a Churchill fellowship and what my goal had been

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Speaker 3: was to travel to the US in particular and spend

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Speaker 3: time with Emeritus Professor Paul M. Boss And what I

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Speaker 3: wanted to do was replicate her book, but from an

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Speaker 3: Australian context in terms of if you were account how

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Speaker 3: could you think about the ways in which you could

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Speaker 3: better support families of missing people? And so when I

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Speaker 3: came back from that trip, you have to write up

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Speaker 3: your report, and the AFP said, would you like to

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Speaker 3: come and work with us? I'm pretty sure it was

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Speaker 3: for about eighteen months, and what they were going to

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Speaker 3: support me to do was to take those findings turn

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Speaker 3: them into a resource that would be available online as

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Speaker 3: well as then think about how the AFP, given they

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Speaker 3: were coordinating services across Australia, how they could combine their

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Speaker 3: policing response with that therapeutic response as well. How could

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Speaker 3: they support me to travel and talk to lots of

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Speaker 3: counseling services so that families knew what else was on

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Speaker 3: offer for them after the police. But one of the

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Speaker 3: key points was, like it still is, every year National

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Speaker 3: Missing Person's Week, and each year there would be like

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Speaker 3: probably six or seven months out some ideas around who

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Speaker 3: would be profiled that week, who would be either the

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Speaker 3: missing person's case that would be profiled, and like lots

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Speaker 3: of work that I still do around the ways in

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Speaker 3: which media engage with families of missing people. Who would

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Speaker 3: the family be that would receive that profile. And it

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Speaker 3: was quite a few years ago now, but I do

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Speaker 3: remember that Rebecca Cots, who sadly is no longer with us,

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Speaker 3: was my colleague at the AFP, and she had said

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Speaker 3: that she had been talking to you and connecting with

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Speaker 3: you over the phone and wanted to ensure that your

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Speaker 3: mum's story was part of National Missing Person's Week that year.

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Speaker 3: So it must have been like two thousand and seven

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Speaker 3: or two thousand and eight, I think, And because I

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Speaker 3: was doing lots of building up a profile around what

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Speaker 3: was really good practice in family media liaison, because I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you know sal how traumatic it can be to

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Speaker 3: engage with media if they're not well versed in understanding

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Speaker 3: your lift experience. And so part of that step was

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Speaker 3: verifying which police were involved and recognizing like where the

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Speaker 3: case was up to so that it meant then that

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Speaker 3: you had a profile to tell your story as well

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Speaker 3: as the investigative response needed to be correct and up

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Speaker 3: to date and to know well who were the police

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Speaker 3: that needed to be involved in media, And when I

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Speaker 3: started making some calls, it became almost ambiguously ambiguous that

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Speaker 3: nobody could verify exactly who was in charge of the case,

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Speaker 3: where the case actually was, and what it was defined as.

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Speaker 3: And that was where that ambiguity around was this a

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Speaker 3: case that had been closed without a resolution or was

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Speaker 3: this an ongoing investigation that nobody was investigating. And so

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Speaker 3: that was where I first started to learn about you

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Speaker 3: and start to you know, I've listened to your story

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Speaker 3: over the years about where not just your great for

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Speaker 3: around the loss of your mum, but that traumatic grief

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Speaker 3: of engaging with police around trying to understand who is

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Speaker 3: looking after this case and who is actively investigating it.

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Speaker 3: So that was my very first interaction with you, despite

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Speaker 3: never having met you at that stage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So that's I had never heard that before.

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Speaker 2: Like this is where these conversations are so great, because

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Speaker 2: you would know probably if you'd listened to me on

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Speaker 2: the Lady Vanishers. We talk a lot about beck Cott's

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Speaker 2: She actually interviewed through the AFP. Actually I went into

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Speaker 2: the AFP building here in Brisbane, but we managed to

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Speaker 2: have an interview with beck in that facility here, and

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad that we had the opportunity to do

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Speaker 2: that because, as you know, she was quite unwell for

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Speaker 2: a lot of her journey. Meeting me, she came up

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Speaker 2: and took me out for lunch and she said she

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Speaker 2: offered me to be the face of missing persons. And

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Speaker 2: then I also remember the call she made only a

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Speaker 2: couple of days before we were due to fly down

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Speaker 2: where she said to me, I'm so sorry, but they've

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Speaker 2: pulled you. And I said, Who've pulled me? Because I

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Speaker 2: had no idea. And this is probably the bit I

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Speaker 2: wanted to get more awareness out there for families and

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Speaker 2: also for people working in that field, so they have

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Speaker 2: a better understanding of how your words and how your

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Speaker 2: communication can affect someone living in the missing space. And

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Speaker 2: I guess that's where you and I connect quite well

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Speaker 2: because you're on the same same journey. And you know

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Speaker 2: when she said to me, well, the police have said

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Speaker 2: that you can't be the face of missing persons this

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Speaker 2: year because we're doing mental health and your mum didn't

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Speaker 2: have mental health issues, so therefore you're not allowed to

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Speaker 2: do it. But come anyway, because we've already got your

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Speaker 2: flights and everything, and they could said to me, we're

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Speaker 2: going to bounce you from one state to the other.

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Speaker 2: And I think Caleb was only like six weeks old.

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Speaker 2: I just had my third sesarian. I think she was saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, we'll go to Melbourne and we'll be in Sydney,

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Speaker 2: so make sure that you know prepared. So Chris was

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Speaker 2: with me and I'm storing my breast milk so that

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Speaker 2: we could he could feed him if I was on

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Speaker 2: TV at the time or being interviewed. So it was

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Speaker 2: quite a layered trauma in multiple different ways.

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Speaker 3: But I think that these like exactly that you said,

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Speaker 3: that these are the stories that are the hidden stories

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Speaker 3: behind missing, because you know, we often think of missing

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Speaker 3: around the lost and found concept, but the emotional and

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Speaker 3: the physical labor of being the family and being the

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Speaker 3: spokesperson time and time again is really poorly understood.

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Speaker 2: And I just think it was just such a time

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Speaker 2: in life. And then if I fast forward even to

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Speaker 2: the inquest, this actual moment in time was a point

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Speaker 2: of question at the inquest because we have the Cops event,

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Speaker 2: which is the insertion of notes and notation through the

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Speaker 2: Cops police system, and we could clearly see and my

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Speaker 2: lawyer we sort of talked about this and noted it,

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Speaker 2: and it was brought up at the inquest that you

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Speaker 2: can clearly see that Rebeccat's rings New South Wales Police,

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Speaker 2: they have a conversation and then straight away my mum's

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Speaker 2: case has changed from accurrence to missing literally in the

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Speaker 2: same sentence. And the coroner did question that and say,

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Speaker 2: you know, is this because you'd realize that Marion actually

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Speaker 2: wasn't registered as missing And they were like, oh no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: that's not what it was. But the factsa it's right

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Speaker 2: there in paper, so we can see very clearly what

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Speaker 2: the timeline tells us. Right, So that's fine, whatever you

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Speaker 2: made errors, just acknowledge it and let's move on and

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Speaker 2: let's do that next time. That's my mantra. But it

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Speaker 2: did happen to me, and that was a really big

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Speaker 2: moment because at that point they were then able to

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Speaker 2: put a new OIC on the case. So this is

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Speaker 2: what stemmed all of that and we moved forward from there.

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Speaker 2: I then had to work with him for over a

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Speaker 2: decade and he firmly believed that my mum went missing

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Speaker 2: on her own account, so it was an assumption made

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Speaker 2: by him, not by fact, and that's a difficult path

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Speaker 2: to follow to as a missing person. So I think

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Speaker 2: that's it's rough.

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Speaker 3: It is rough, and I think and I won't labor

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Speaker 3: the point, but I think those moments where someone else

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Speaker 3: outside of the family asking questions of police are also

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Speaker 3: really important from an advocacy perspective because asking that simple question,

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Speaker 3: can you verify that this is a long term missing

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Speaker 3: person because this is our intention for missing Person's Week

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Speaker 3: was the catalyst for that move from occurrence to missing

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Speaker 3: And I think that really connects in with the name

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Speaker 3: of your podcast about recognizing that even the way that

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Speaker 3: we define people is an important reflection of the fact

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Speaker 3: that they're missed.

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Speaker 2: Sarah, I wanted to ask you your opinion on missing

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Speaker 2: persons cases throughout Australia being handled under the one umbrella,

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Speaker 2: Like what's your thoughts on that, Like, obviously we've got

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Speaker 2: states and territories all over the place, and there for

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Speaker 2: people who don't understand each state and territory are responsible

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Speaker 2: for each case and they don't usually work together. And

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Speaker 2: this is why I bang on about being on the

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Speaker 2: National Missing Person's Register and the DNA being on the

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Speaker 2: national register, because Western Australia is not talking to New

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Speaker 2: South Wales police if they find bodies or bones, if

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Speaker 2: the person's not on the register, they're not looking at

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Speaker 2: that person and they don't know that that person's missing

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Speaker 2: from New South Wales. So what's your thoughts on working

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Speaker 2: together collectively to have one sort of umbrella in the

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Speaker 2: missing space.

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Speaker 3: I feel like from the moment I started working and missing,

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Speaker 3: the discussion around a national approach to missing person was prominent.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've spent a lot of years and I

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Speaker 3: always come back to the point that I'm a social

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Speaker 3: work and it's a very odd space sometimes for a

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Speaker 3: social worker to work in a law enforcement setting and

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Speaker 3: to engage. Like there was always two parts very much

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Speaker 3: of my job. One side of me was being an

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Speaker 3: advocate and a support for families of missing. The other

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Speaker 3: part of me was learning and understanding and then providing

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Speaker 3: advice whether or not it was accepted or not, to

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Speaker 3: law enforcement about the ways in which they work and

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Speaker 3: how it can sometimes further the trauma for families of

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Speaker 3: missing people.

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Speaker 1: You know, Australia is a really big place geographically.

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Speaker 3: I think that having a national approach is really important

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Speaker 3: in terms of standard operating procedures as to how information

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Speaker 3: is shared across states and territories, because, like you know,

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Speaker 3: you almost lose the battle as a family member if

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Speaker 3: someone that you love has gone missing near a border

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Speaker 3: or has clearly traveled across that border. I think that

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Speaker 3: there's a little bit more of certainty, and this is

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Speaker 3: anecdotal from talking to families of missing people that if

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Speaker 3: it all occurred within that state, then you can really

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Speaker 3: engage with the policies and procedures of that policing service.

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Speaker 3: If you happen to be someone unlucky where the person

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Speaker 3: traveled or it's right on the edge of a border,

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Speaker 3: then the need to engage with two jurisdictions means two

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Speaker 3: lots of administrative burden for families, and that burden then

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Speaker 3: makes people worried about what is being missed and what

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Speaker 3: happens if they get one service from one side of

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Speaker 3: the border and a really different service from the other

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Speaker 3: who's in charge of helping them navigate that space. So

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Speaker 3: I think from that perspective, I think it's always really

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Speaker 3: important to have a national approach to missing persons, and

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Speaker 3: that's in terms of data collection. Data collection is really

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Speaker 3: important in terms of knowing the numbers, but knowing how

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Speaker 3: many people came back and where they were found, and

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Speaker 3: how they got to be found.

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Speaker 2: On what date they were found and exactly. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's so much information that's a bit skewy if I

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Speaker 2: think from what we've been researched exactly.

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Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, ambiguous loss is a

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Speaker 3: great term for talking about what happens to families left behind,

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Speaker 3: but there is so much ambiguity in terms of investigations

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Speaker 3: and expectations because of that individual response in each of

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Speaker 3: the states and territories. I've always wondered why, because I

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Speaker 3: don't work in policing, why that national approach hasn't really

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Speaker 3: taken off in terms of the ways in which cases

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Speaker 3: are handled. And I know that when Jody Ward in

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Speaker 3: particular was it the AFP and working on that national

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Speaker 3: DNA project, I felt really hopeful because it meant then

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Speaker 3: that it put it on a national platform. And I

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Speaker 3: think so much of missing is explored in a local, community,

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Speaker 3: state based context in terms of knowing that that young

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Speaker 3: person went missing from that state, rather than saying this

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Speaker 3: is the missing person's problem in Australia. We need to

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Speaker 3: look at this collectively and we need to think about

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Speaker 3: a prevention as well as a better support lens. And

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Speaker 3: that can only happen from a national platform, So I

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Speaker 3: think it needs to be dealt with locally, but local

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Speaker 3: then needs to connect in with the bigger picture if

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Speaker 3: we're going to think about reducing the amount of people

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Speaker 3: that go missing. As well as saying to families, this

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Speaker 3: is the expectation of what you should be in receipt

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Speaker 3: of because of the awful traumatic loss that you've experienced,

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Speaker 3: there needs to be a baseline and I think at

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Speaker 3: the moment it's a bit of luck sometimes as to

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Speaker 3: where the incident happened and what you get in return

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Speaker 3: for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know firsthand right because my mum's case

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Speaker 2: is a New South Wales case, but she lived in

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Speaker 2: Queensland and I was fighting that for a very long time.

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Speaker 2: Actually where the New South Wales Police was saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: well it should be a Queensland coronial inquest because she

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Speaker 2: lived in Queensland. So we had all this fight on

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Speaker 2: our hands and comments like oh well, I'm not just

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Speaker 2: going to dump you over the border, I mean speak,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, why would you even say that? Like, this

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Speaker 2: is a case that spreads over both jurisdictions. I don't

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Speaker 2: understand why everyone kind of internationally and internationally like that.

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Speaker 3: Correct, Like my stomach would drop if I was hearing

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Speaker 3: from a family for the first time in relation to

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Speaker 3: how far away their loved one could be from them,

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Speaker 3: because I knew that there was that jurisdictional challenge of

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Speaker 3: where the person was that would create further trauma for

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Speaker 3: the family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it just adds a load onto what shouldn't should

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Speaker 2: be quite easy. Let's talk about the National Missing Person's

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Speaker 2: Coordinations Center. They funded you actually to do an updated

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Speaker 2: version of their book from your Churchhill. So that's ignowledging

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Speaker 2: the empty space. What was that about? And is that

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Speaker 2: still a thing today within the Coordination Center?

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Speaker 1: Definitely.

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Speaker 3: I work as an academic now, so a lot of

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Speaker 3: the ways in which we indicate like almost like our

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Speaker 3: KPIs of Our job is where our publications are and

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Speaker 3: how many people have cited them or utilized them. So

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Speaker 3: the book that I updated and wrote that was really

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Speaker 3: nicely funded by National Missing Person's Coordination Center. As an academic,

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Speaker 3: we also spent half of our lives trying to locate

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Speaker 3: money to explore our research areas. So that allowed me

401
00:22:42,441 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 3: to really consider what had I learned between two thousand

402
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:50,241
Speaker 3: and seven when the first book was published, and how

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Speaker 3: had the world changed. Interestingly, writing it in twenty nineteen,

404
00:22:53,761 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 3: we all know what happened the year after that in

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Speaker 3: the world, and I think that the pandemic has also

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Speaker 3: shaped the ways in which we manage loss and trauma.

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Speaker 3: But that book allowed me to really think about I

408
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Speaker 3: always like to imagine that what happens if you have

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Speaker 3: someone missing and you don't have a counseling or support

410
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Speaker 3: service available to you. How could I write something that

411
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Speaker 3: a counselor or a social worker or a psychologist or

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Speaker 3: anybody who was in that kind of service delivery role

413
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Speaker 3: could pick it up and work out immediately, Okay, what's

414
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Speaker 3: really important in the first session with that person? What's

415
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 3: the evidence base that I need to connect with? What

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Speaker 3: should I not do? With families submissing people. That was

417
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Speaker 3: almost an easier book to write because over the years,

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Speaker 3: families have shared with me the traumatic impact of seeking

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Speaker 3: support and getting the wrong support from somebody. So that

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Speaker 3: was what that book was utilized for as a bit

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Speaker 3: of like a warm introduction for counselors who already have

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Speaker 3: their qualifications to quickly upscill them so that families had

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Speaker 3: someone to talk with. So over the years I've utilized

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Speaker 3: it in the space I hear from families still on Facebook,

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Speaker 3: on Instagram, different places saying my loved one is missing

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Speaker 3: and I don't know how to find a good counselor

427
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 3: can you suggest someone. Most of the time I can't

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Speaker 3: suggest someone because I don't know everybody, but I can say,

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Speaker 3: here's this book, here's this resource. Take that with you

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Speaker 3: to the person that you know, ask them to read

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00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,001
Speaker 3: it before they connect with you.

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Speaker 1: So that was the purpose of the book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing. And I think what I find important in

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Speaker 2: a lived experience space is that you know, when my

435
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: mum went missing, there were certain terms and phrases that

436
00:24:40,561 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: didn't exist or I hadn't heard of as a twenty

437
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Speaker 2: four year old, like coercive control and gas lighting and femicide.

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Speaker 2: An ambiguous loss was something I hadn't heard about until

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Speaker 2: I actually met you and Lauren and we started working

440
00:24:54,521 --> 00:24:58,241
Speaker 2: on another project, which we'll talk about in a minute.

441
00:24:58,281 --> 00:25:03,121
Speaker 2: But you've mentioned before Pauline Boss. So she's known as

442
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,641
Speaker 2: and described, I guess as a leading expert in ambiguity

443
00:25:06,681 --> 00:25:09,561
Speaker 2: and ambiguous loss, and she's quoted as saying, is you know,

444
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: ambiguous loss is described as a loss where a person

445
00:25:12,961 --> 00:25:16,041
Speaker 2: is physically absent, but it is unclear if the loss

446
00:25:16,281 --> 00:25:20,401
Speaker 2: will be permanent. And that really resonated with me because

447
00:25:20,721 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 2: and I wanted to sort of bring that back in.

448
00:25:22,921 --> 00:25:25,281
Speaker 2: I know you spoke earlier, and obviously did you actually

449
00:25:25,321 --> 00:25:27,401
Speaker 2: meet Pauline when you went over to America.

450
00:25:27,441 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: I did.

451
00:25:28,001 --> 00:25:31,321
Speaker 3: I spent a whole week with her, and even yesterday

452
00:25:31,481 --> 00:25:33,841
Speaker 3: I got an email from her. So we have stayed

453
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,801
Speaker 3: close for the last twenty years. She's in your nineties now,

454
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,121
Speaker 3: Oh blessed, she's still publishing, she's still doing a lot

455
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:41,401
Speaker 3: of work.

456
00:25:41,441 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: We collaborate on things.

457
00:25:43,041 --> 00:25:46,521
Speaker 3: So yes, I was really privileged to be able to

458
00:25:46,561 --> 00:25:49,481
Speaker 3: spend a whole week with her at the University of Minnesota.

459
00:25:49,681 --> 00:25:52,881
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, how that's really priceless, isn't it when you've

460
00:25:52,921 --> 00:25:56,321
Speaker 2: got someone who just understands and has a deep understanding

461
00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: and is able to help and share and teach. I

462
00:25:59,041 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 2: think teaching is part of this too, right, because yes,

463
00:26:02,481 --> 00:26:06,801
Speaker 2: people need to be taught things. There is no expectation

464
00:26:06,961 --> 00:26:09,561
Speaker 2: in my head that people know things straight up. You

465
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,601
Speaker 2: are learning all the time.

466
00:26:11,801 --> 00:26:12,481
Speaker 1: All the time.

467
00:26:12,681 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 3: And you know, I still publish a lot, and I

468
00:26:15,241 --> 00:26:18,321
Speaker 3: still have lots of ideas about what to write next

469
00:26:18,441 --> 00:26:21,561
Speaker 3: or what to do next, because I'm also on that

470
00:26:21,681 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: learning journey with everybody else. There is no concept of

471
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: an expert on anything, because human beings are weird and

472
00:26:28,281 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 3: wonderful people. And every time you think you've heard a

473
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,841
Speaker 3: story from a family member of a missing person, you'll

474
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,721
Speaker 3: meet the next one and think, wow, never thought you'd

475
00:26:38,721 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 3: approach it like that.

476
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,041
Speaker 1: But you've always got to be open to hearing.

477
00:26:42,801 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: Those yeah, one hundred percent. And every story is different.

478
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,801
Speaker 2: And even in this space now, I know a lot

479
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,561
Speaker 2: of people in the missing space through my journey, and

480
00:26:52,201 --> 00:26:54,481
Speaker 2: you know, wanting to just open my door to people

481
00:26:54,521 --> 00:26:56,761
Speaker 2: to come in and chat if they wanted to. From

482
00:26:56,801 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: a different perspective, I'm not an expert, but I am

483
00:26:59,761 --> 00:27:02,121
Speaker 2: a friend and I am someone who has a lot

484
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,961
Speaker 2: of experienced myself personally through this journey. But I think

485
00:27:05,961 --> 00:27:08,121
Speaker 2: it's important, I think the learning side of it and

486
00:27:08,201 --> 00:27:11,281
Speaker 2: just keeping an open mind and doing these new podcasts

487
00:27:11,281 --> 00:27:13,561
Speaker 2: that I'm doing where I'm bringing people in. I'm hating

488
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: to do a little bit of deep diving into their

489
00:27:15,921 --> 00:27:19,401
Speaker 2: stories because I know I know a lot of their stories,

490
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,001
Speaker 2: but it's important to actually have a good understanding because

491
00:27:23,041 --> 00:27:25,281
Speaker 2: I want to be able to show empathy and care

492
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,961
Speaker 2: and kindness to these people who are you know, I

493
00:27:28,041 --> 00:27:31,201
Speaker 2: always call it trauma on repeat when we're talking about

494
00:27:31,441 --> 00:27:33,801
Speaker 2: your story again and again and again and again, and

495
00:27:34,521 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: it is hard, and especially when you do have a

496
00:27:36,921 --> 00:27:39,321
Speaker 2: lot of media or even if you just have a

497
00:27:39,801 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: media poke in, you know, that can open up the

498
00:27:42,801 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 2: door to you know, the next twenty people asking you

499
00:27:45,561 --> 00:27:47,801
Speaker 2: about your missing person and where are you at and

500
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,641
Speaker 2: asking questions that person potentially doesn't really understand, right, so, oh,

501
00:27:52,721 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: you know, so what do you think happened to your mum?

502
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 2: Like I constantly see on Facebook people saying I believe

503
00:27:58,521 --> 00:28:01,761
Speaker 2: Marian didn't come back to Australia. I believe her passport

504
00:28:01,921 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 2: was used by somebody else and coming back in and

505
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:07,801
Speaker 2: everyone's entitled to an opinion, right, Like that's fine, but

506
00:28:08,281 --> 00:28:11,241
Speaker 2: making assumptions we don't know for a fact, like we've

507
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 2: actually have her passport coming back into Australia and I

508
00:28:14,561 --> 00:28:17,561
Speaker 2: actually have seen the document that has her handwriting on it,

509
00:28:18,001 --> 00:28:21,041
Speaker 2: making assumptions about whether somebody else gave her the card

510
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,041
Speaker 2: before she got on the plane to handwrite her incoming

511
00:28:24,041 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: passenger card. Like it's just extra extra that you have

512
00:28:27,441 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: in your heads and it's on repeat sometimes and it

513
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,561
Speaker 2: can be quite hard and challenging to manage that, you know.

514
00:28:34,681 --> 00:28:37,561
Speaker 3: So one of the most pervasive memories I have from

515
00:28:37,561 --> 00:28:41,321
Speaker 3: that week of being with Pauline Boss and I had

516
00:28:41,321 --> 00:28:43,761
Speaker 3: my daughter with me there. She was seven months old

517
00:28:44,121 --> 00:28:48,081
Speaker 3: as a single mum. Pauline had me in her home

518
00:28:48,241 --> 00:28:51,081
Speaker 3: and would be like feeding my daughter dinner while we

519
00:28:51,081 --> 00:28:53,881
Speaker 3: were chatting about all of these ideas, Like sometimes people

520
00:28:53,881 --> 00:28:56,641
Speaker 3: come into your life as well where you think this

521
00:28:56,681 --> 00:28:59,041
Speaker 3: person's a really good egg. You know, I can learn

522
00:28:59,081 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: a lot from this person. I was only in my

523
00:29:01,281 --> 00:29:04,961
Speaker 3: late twenties at that stage, and I think that I

524
00:29:05,161 --> 00:29:08,401
Speaker 3: can remember, in terms of finishing up work that week

525
00:29:08,481 --> 00:29:10,801
Speaker 3: with her, that the thing that she said to me

526
00:29:11,041 --> 00:29:13,601
Speaker 3: was that the skill that I needed to work on

527
00:29:13,681 --> 00:29:17,641
Speaker 3: the most in order to work in this space was

528
00:29:17,681 --> 00:29:20,601
Speaker 3: that I needed to be okay with tolerating the unknown.

529
00:29:21,201 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: That I needed to lean into all aspects of my life.

530
00:29:24,641 --> 00:29:29,201
Speaker 3: Like I needed to lean into the idea that there

531
00:29:29,241 --> 00:29:33,281
Speaker 3: aren't always answers for everything, and that if I'm thinking

532
00:29:33,321 --> 00:29:35,401
Speaker 3: in my head all of the time when a family

533
00:29:35,441 --> 00:29:37,721
Speaker 3: comes to talk to me for the first time, or

534
00:29:37,801 --> 00:29:39,761
Speaker 3: I think this might have happened with their loved one,

535
00:29:39,801 --> 00:29:42,641
Speaker 3: I think that that was not the point of the interaction.

536
00:29:43,121 --> 00:29:46,961
Speaker 3: The interaction was to hear the story, to acknowledge the pain,

537
00:29:47,401 --> 00:29:51,561
Speaker 3: to work out the teasing journey ahead of navigating, like

538
00:29:51,681 --> 00:29:57,361
Speaker 3: hopefulness and hopelessness was the really important aspect. And that

539
00:29:57,481 --> 00:30:00,921
Speaker 3: part that you said before about trauma on trauma is

540
00:30:00,961 --> 00:30:01,921
Speaker 3: that people have gone on.

541
00:30:01,961 --> 00:30:04,161
Speaker 1: To do more research work over the years.

542
00:30:05,241 --> 00:30:07,401
Speaker 3: Great because it means that it also gives me a

543
00:30:07,481 --> 00:30:10,801
Speaker 3: community to lean into. And there was a work that

544
00:30:11,041 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: was done by a really amazing researcher called Leniki Lenfrink,

545
00:30:15,881 --> 00:30:19,881
Speaker 3: and she looked at the imagined trauma of families of

546
00:30:19,921 --> 00:30:25,641
Speaker 3: missing people. So she explored like an imagined PTSD that

547
00:30:25,641 --> 00:30:30,081
Speaker 3: that constant, repetitive notion of trying to navigate what is

548
00:30:30,201 --> 00:30:33,601
Speaker 3: known and what is unknown meant that all those unknown

549
00:30:33,641 --> 00:30:37,161
Speaker 3: stories were just all of these traumatic layers of what

550
00:30:37,241 --> 00:30:40,601
Speaker 3: could have happened that in the body feel like they

551
00:30:40,721 --> 00:30:45,121
Speaker 3: actually happened when you live through those kind of imaginings

552
00:30:45,121 --> 00:30:47,841
Speaker 3: all of the time. And I think that that's the

553
00:30:47,841 --> 00:30:51,841
Speaker 3: part that people don't understand on social media and commenting

554
00:30:52,121 --> 00:30:55,801
Speaker 3: where they say I think this, I think the person

555
00:30:56,641 --> 00:30:59,361
Speaker 3: was out walking in the desert and probably died of

556
00:30:59,401 --> 00:31:03,641
Speaker 3: heat stroke. That they don't understand that they are either

557
00:31:04,121 --> 00:31:09,281
Speaker 3: adding another layer of imagine trauma or articulating an imagine

558
00:31:09,321 --> 00:31:12,401
Speaker 3: trauma that the family might have already started to panic about.

559
00:31:13,201 --> 00:31:16,281
Speaker 3: I think that it tells us that as a community,

560
00:31:16,401 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 3: we cannot tolerate the unknown. The pandemic showed us that

561
00:31:19,961 --> 00:31:21,801
Speaker 3: everyone was like, when is this going to be over?

562
00:31:21,881 --> 00:31:24,121
Speaker 3: I can cope with being locked at home if I

563
00:31:24,201 --> 00:31:27,361
Speaker 3: know when it'll be over, because as a community, we

564
00:31:27,441 --> 00:31:32,641
Speaker 3: don't sit with not knowing at all.

565
00:31:32,761 --> 00:31:36,041
Speaker 2: So let's talk back about when we met again. So

566
00:31:36,801 --> 00:31:39,281
Speaker 2: we're back in May twenty twenty two and I was

567
00:31:39,281 --> 00:31:42,561
Speaker 2: invited along with some other amazing humans to come to

568
00:31:42,601 --> 00:31:45,401
Speaker 2: Melbourne and meet with you and Lauren. That was all

569
00:31:45,441 --> 00:31:49,361
Speaker 2: about creating this project called Hope Narrative Cards. Now I

570
00:31:49,361 --> 00:31:51,121
Speaker 2: did bring them with me today, so they sit on

571
00:31:51,161 --> 00:31:55,601
Speaker 2: my desk at work. And these cards are about different

572
00:31:55,721 --> 00:31:59,121
Speaker 2: elements of going through a process when someone is missing

573
00:31:59,401 --> 00:32:03,681
Speaker 2: or you're living with the ambiguous loss or ambiguity of

574
00:32:03,721 --> 00:32:06,561
Speaker 2: not knowing. This one says coping. This is from a

575
00:32:06,681 --> 00:32:10,601
Speaker 2: sister who has a missing person of six years. So

576
00:32:10,641 --> 00:32:12,841
Speaker 2: we've also put those on the cards down the bottom.

577
00:32:13,321 --> 00:32:15,681
Speaker 2: And time is more precious to me now I take

578
00:32:15,721 --> 00:32:19,361
Speaker 2: more photos, I create more moments, more experiences. I hug

579
00:32:19,441 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: my children tighter, never forget, and I love you. And

580
00:32:23,521 --> 00:32:26,801
Speaker 2: these are just little cards that you can pull out

581
00:32:26,921 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: if you happen to be sadly in this space that

582
00:32:30,441 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: give you just an element of support or a hug

583
00:32:34,681 --> 00:32:36,801
Speaker 2: or just something in your own space. You don't have

584
00:32:36,841 --> 00:32:40,721
Speaker 2: to have someone sitting there talking to you or telling you.

585
00:32:40,721 --> 00:32:44,361
Speaker 2: You can just do it in your own care and space.

586
00:32:44,401 --> 00:32:46,601
Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of power in that.

587
00:32:47,241 --> 00:32:50,561
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about that. How did

588
00:32:50,601 --> 00:32:54,161
Speaker 2: you and Lauren meet and how did this project sort

589
00:32:54,161 --> 00:32:54,761
Speaker 2: of start?

590
00:32:55,921 --> 00:32:58,601
Speaker 3: Lauren and I met a really long time ago a

591
00:32:58,681 --> 00:33:02,161
Speaker 3: couple of months after her lovely brother Dan went missing.

592
00:33:02,961 --> 00:33:05,921
Speaker 3: Whilst I was doing my PhD. I was on a

593
00:33:05,961 --> 00:33:10,281
Speaker 3: scholarship to do my PhD, which in Australia is not

594
00:33:10,441 --> 00:33:13,801
Speaker 3: the hugest amount of money. It equates to about twelve

595
00:33:13,881 --> 00:33:17,561
Speaker 3: dollars an hour, tax free to do a PhD. And

596
00:33:17,641 --> 00:33:20,761
Speaker 3: so part of that was I had a lot of

597
00:33:20,801 --> 00:33:23,801
Speaker 3: side hustles, like you were talking about, in terms of

598
00:33:23,921 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: other work that I did, you know, to feed my

599
00:33:26,321 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: kids and pay my mortgage. And one of those was

600
00:33:29,641 --> 00:33:32,641
Speaker 3: I was doing a lot of freelance writing for different spaces,

601
00:33:32,681 --> 00:33:35,641
Speaker 3: and not necessarily about grief and loss and missing, but

602
00:33:36,001 --> 00:33:39,601
Speaker 3: you know, parenting articles like all of those sorts of things,

603
00:33:39,681 --> 00:33:42,761
Speaker 3: because I like writing and it was an easy space

604
00:33:42,801 --> 00:33:45,761
Speaker 3: to work in. So one of the very first articles

605
00:33:45,761 --> 00:33:48,361
Speaker 3: that I actually had published was on Meya Friedman's site,

606
00:33:48,401 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: Mama Mia, and it was just after the location of

607
00:33:51,521 --> 00:33:55,081
Speaker 3: Daniel Morcambe's remains, and I had been working with the

608
00:33:55,121 --> 00:33:58,801
Speaker 3: family for a really long time, and I reflected on

609
00:33:59,081 --> 00:34:03,041
Speaker 3: the ways in which the resolution isn't always a course

610
00:34:03,041 --> 00:34:06,121
Speaker 3: for celebration. It's just another piece of the puzzle for

611
00:34:06,201 --> 00:34:09,721
Speaker 3: families of missing people. So because of that article, I

612
00:34:09,801 --> 00:34:12,401
Speaker 3: was connected really closely with the editor at the time,

613
00:34:13,081 --> 00:34:16,401
Speaker 3: and Lauren had written a story about Dan being missing,

614
00:34:16,881 --> 00:34:19,841
Speaker 3: and that editor reached out to me and said, I'm

615
00:34:19,881 --> 00:34:23,601
Speaker 3: really concerned about this lovely young woman who's talking and

616
00:34:23,681 --> 00:34:25,881
Speaker 3: doing a lot of media about her brother. Can I

617
00:34:25,921 --> 00:34:27,681
Speaker 3: connect to you with her? Because she knew what my

618
00:34:27,721 --> 00:34:30,881
Speaker 3: PhD was about, and so we connected via email and

619
00:34:30,881 --> 00:34:34,081
Speaker 3: then we started chatting on the phone. And I'm not

620
00:34:34,241 --> 00:34:37,521
Speaker 3: Lauren's counselor we've always in those early days, I was

621
00:34:37,641 --> 00:34:40,441
Speaker 3: just a sounding board for her, you know, because she

622
00:34:40,561 --> 00:34:44,401
Speaker 3: was so desperate for information and how to navigate the police.

623
00:34:44,921 --> 00:34:49,041
Speaker 3: And so we've been friends ever since then. I finished

624
00:34:49,041 --> 00:34:53,121
Speaker 3: my PhD in twenty fifteen, and my focus had been

625
00:34:53,441 --> 00:34:57,801
Speaker 3: like a storytelling research project around what is the space

626
00:34:57,881 --> 00:35:02,401
Speaker 3: between hopefulness and hopelessness when someone's missing? And I had

627
00:35:02,441 --> 00:35:07,361
Speaker 3: worked with almost twenty families navigat their stories. One of

628
00:35:07,401 --> 00:35:10,681
Speaker 3: them had someone missing for under a year, and then

629
00:35:11,001 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: the family with the longest ambiguity was about thirty five

630
00:35:15,561 --> 00:35:20,041
Speaker 3: years missing. And so we looked at this timeline around

631
00:35:20,241 --> 00:35:25,401
Speaker 3: what it means to live alongside hope. How complicated hope was.

632
00:35:25,721 --> 00:35:29,041
Speaker 3: I asked my supervisors if I could call my thesis

633
00:35:29,081 --> 00:35:31,361
Speaker 3: hope is shit, but they wouldn't let me write that.

634
00:35:31,921 --> 00:35:35,401
Speaker 3: But it really was about how to live alongside hope.

635
00:35:35,441 --> 00:35:35,881
Speaker 1: And what I.

636
00:35:35,881 --> 00:35:41,081
Speaker 3: Uncovered was that people's private stories of their ambiguous loss

637
00:35:41,081 --> 00:35:44,041
Speaker 3: were different from their public stories because they knew that

638
00:35:44,081 --> 00:35:46,961
Speaker 3: people didn't want to hear their dark trauma, that they

639
00:35:47,001 --> 00:35:50,081
Speaker 3: had their outward facing. Yes we're holding on to hope.

640
00:35:50,241 --> 00:35:53,761
Speaker 3: Yes we're remaining hopeful. Yes we want this person back

641
00:35:53,761 --> 00:35:56,481
Speaker 3: and we believe it. And then the dark stories were

642
00:35:56,761 --> 00:36:01,441
Speaker 3: either only shared with counselors or with other family members

643
00:36:01,441 --> 00:36:02,361
Speaker 3: where it was safe.

644
00:36:03,441 --> 00:36:04,321
Speaker 1: So Lauren really.

645
00:36:04,161 --> 00:36:08,721
Speaker 3: Connected with my thesis and it took us until twenty

646
00:36:08,801 --> 00:36:12,921
Speaker 3: twenty two, but we found an opportunity to be able

647
00:36:12,961 --> 00:36:16,521
Speaker 3: to turn the thesis into what we call the hope narratives,

648
00:36:16,561 --> 00:36:20,761
Speaker 3: which is that box that you're talking about. But as always,

649
00:36:20,921 --> 00:36:24,281
Speaker 3: we wanted to make sure that we had new reflections

650
00:36:24,321 --> 00:36:29,321
Speaker 3: and new opportunities to connect with more families, which became

651
00:36:29,401 --> 00:36:33,081
Speaker 3: those two days in Melbourne to really plot out those

652
00:36:33,121 --> 00:36:36,321
Speaker 3: four components of what does it mean to sit with

653
00:36:36,401 --> 00:36:39,641
Speaker 3: those hard truths about the reality of your missing person,

654
00:36:40,601 --> 00:36:43,761
Speaker 3: what does it mean to engage in ideas of hope,

655
00:36:44,281 --> 00:36:46,641
Speaker 3: and what does it mean to look to the future

656
00:36:47,241 --> 00:36:49,321
Speaker 3: when you know that on the horizon you might not

657
00:36:49,401 --> 00:36:52,361
Speaker 3: get the answers that you want. And so we wanted

658
00:36:52,401 --> 00:36:57,521
Speaker 3: to create a toolkit that families could use themselves, but

659
00:36:57,601 --> 00:37:02,241
Speaker 3: also could be used in counseling as well. As we've

660
00:37:02,241 --> 00:37:04,201
Speaker 3: had a lot of interest from police over the years

661
00:37:04,241 --> 00:37:07,921
Speaker 3: as well to upskill their teams to say this is

662
00:37:07,961 --> 00:37:11,441
Speaker 3: the lived experience reality in one box of what it

663
00:37:11,521 --> 00:37:14,761
Speaker 3: means to exist in all of these spaces with different

664
00:37:14,761 --> 00:37:17,561
Speaker 3: types of missing, which is why that description is on

665
00:37:17,601 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 3: the back.

666
00:37:18,401 --> 00:37:21,801
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean when you look at those that

667
00:37:21,881 --> 00:37:25,001
Speaker 2: box of cards, there's so much in there that is

668
00:37:25,161 --> 00:37:31,681
Speaker 2: just an absolute hub of knowledge and power and hope

669
00:37:31,841 --> 00:37:36,081
Speaker 2: and stress that we can try and maneuver and help

670
00:37:36,121 --> 00:37:39,921
Speaker 2: people understand better. I mean, we've got forty four members,

671
00:37:40,241 --> 00:37:43,441
Speaker 2: eight countries. We had more than five hundred years of

672
00:37:43,521 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: lived experience, which we referred to as l E both

673
00:37:46,521 --> 00:37:50,801
Speaker 2: suspicious and not suspicious circumstances and ranging from two years

674
00:37:50,841 --> 00:37:53,921
Speaker 2: to forty four years missing, so exactly.

675
00:37:54,601 --> 00:37:57,521
Speaker 3: And I think you know, the intention was not to say,

676
00:37:58,081 --> 00:38:01,401
Speaker 3: let's condense this down to one lived experience. Let's say

677
00:38:01,681 --> 00:38:04,881
Speaker 3: this is the most common reality. I mean like you

678
00:38:05,201 --> 00:38:08,761
Speaker 3: would have. I get contact by lots of media, and

679
00:38:08,801 --> 00:38:12,161
Speaker 3: sometimes the questions are so simple and so reductive about

680
00:38:12,521 --> 00:38:15,041
Speaker 3: oh so does it mean that all families hold on

681
00:38:15,121 --> 00:38:17,761
Speaker 3: to hope or is the goal to find a body

682
00:38:17,761 --> 00:38:21,081
Speaker 3: and that equals closure. The purpose of it being such

683
00:38:21,121 --> 00:38:26,081
Speaker 3: a large toolkit is also then visibly a reminder that

684
00:38:26,561 --> 00:38:30,281
Speaker 3: it's an individual journey that everybody is on and these

685
00:38:30,321 --> 00:38:33,641
Speaker 3: are the ways that people move through that individual journey.

686
00:38:34,201 --> 00:38:37,481
Speaker 3: So by being able to be in that room for

687
00:38:37,561 --> 00:38:40,321
Speaker 3: two days and plot out, you know, we were very

688
00:38:40,321 --> 00:38:44,241
Speaker 3: old school, weren't we, with post it notes and mapping

689
00:38:44,321 --> 00:38:49,881
Speaker 3: the ideas in small groups.

690
00:38:48,521 --> 00:38:52,201
Speaker 2: Going out and recording ourselves talking about things in private,

691
00:38:52,321 --> 00:38:57,081
Speaker 2: you know, reflection in that space. And also for me personally,

692
00:38:57,121 --> 00:39:00,201
Speaker 2: like being around those people. It's not very often that

693
00:39:01,361 --> 00:39:04,521
Speaker 2: us who have a missing person get to interact with

694
00:39:04,561 --> 00:39:08,961
Speaker 2: somebody else who has the understanding that we have. And

695
00:39:09,001 --> 00:39:12,681
Speaker 2: we all have different stories, right, We've got people missing overseas,

696
00:39:12,841 --> 00:39:16,441
Speaker 2: we've got people missing from all different states in territories

697
00:39:16,481 --> 00:39:20,881
Speaker 2: in Australia in different ways, and it was very powerful.

698
00:39:20,961 --> 00:39:23,961
Speaker 2: We've all stayed friends and connect from time to time,

699
00:39:24,001 --> 00:39:25,441
Speaker 2: which is nice to know it's there.

700
00:39:26,001 --> 00:39:28,841
Speaker 3: Exactly, and I think, you know, as a researcher and

701
00:39:28,881 --> 00:39:33,041
Speaker 3: a social worker, I see firsthand the unexpected benefits of

702
00:39:33,081 --> 00:39:35,841
Speaker 3: being invited to tell your story that have nothing to

703
00:39:35,881 --> 00:39:39,361
Speaker 3: do with what the outcome is or what the output is,

704
00:39:39,841 --> 00:39:42,641
Speaker 3: what product is made from it, or does it end

705
00:39:42,721 --> 00:39:45,681
Speaker 3: up being a journal, paper or a movie or whatever,

706
00:39:46,281 --> 00:39:49,401
Speaker 3: Because just that simple notion of being in that room

707
00:39:49,521 --> 00:39:53,401
Speaker 3: for those two days, you could see the sparks that

708
00:39:53,441 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: were created between people. People who were nervous about being

709
00:39:58,521 --> 00:40:02,321
Speaker 3: there and eased into the process. People that have remained

710
00:40:02,361 --> 00:40:06,081
Speaker 3: connected to each other. Love the fact WhatsApp group that

711
00:40:06,121 --> 00:40:08,081
Speaker 3: we have, you know, a little bit of a mascot,

712
00:40:08,241 --> 00:40:11,321
Speaker 3: so that when we see a flamingo out in the community,

713
00:40:11,521 --> 00:40:15,321
Speaker 3: it's our reminder of, you know, those invisible ties that

714
00:40:15,401 --> 00:40:19,801
Speaker 3: connect us. And I think that's the power of making

715
00:40:19,881 --> 00:40:24,361
Speaker 3: sure that families of missing people are not forgotten, because

716
00:40:24,841 --> 00:40:29,401
Speaker 3: from my perspective, it's a silent, lonely grief, and any

717
00:40:29,521 --> 00:40:32,641
Speaker 3: chance to remind people that they're not alone, whether it

718
00:40:32,681 --> 00:40:35,761
Speaker 3: be through a podcast or an article or those sorts

719
00:40:35,761 --> 00:40:39,001
Speaker 3: of activities, that's the stuff that keeps people going.

720
00:40:40,681 --> 00:40:43,241
Speaker 2: Can you share with us, Sarah, a couple of your

721
00:40:43,281 --> 00:40:45,881
Speaker 2: new projects or the latest projects that you're working on.

722
00:40:47,041 --> 00:40:51,241
Speaker 3: Definitely. I think, as you can probably hear in a

723
00:40:51,281 --> 00:40:55,041
Speaker 3: lot of my sharing about my experiences is I've always

724
00:40:55,041 --> 00:40:58,641
Speaker 3: been really intrigued about the role of media and the

725
00:40:58,681 --> 00:41:02,521
Speaker 3: ways in which media professionals engage with families submissing people,

726
00:41:02,921 --> 00:41:08,121
Speaker 3: because I have firsthand experience of really great media interviews

727
00:41:08,161 --> 00:41:11,361
Speaker 3: and really rubbish media interviews no matter how much I

728
00:41:11,441 --> 00:41:14,721
Speaker 3: prepped someone about what I will and won't say. And

729
00:41:14,801 --> 00:41:17,761
Speaker 3: so a couple of years ago I got some grant

730
00:41:18,121 --> 00:41:22,401
Speaker 3: funding from the University of New England to start a

731
00:41:22,441 --> 00:41:25,801
Speaker 3: project that's almost at the stage where we've got quite

732
00:41:25,841 --> 00:41:29,321
Speaker 3: a few papers under review in journals which I can

733
00:41:29,361 --> 00:41:33,001
Speaker 3: then share, but about trying to understand what would it

734
00:41:33,041 --> 00:41:36,841
Speaker 3: look like to have safe reporting guidelines around the ways

735
00:41:36,841 --> 00:41:41,001
Speaker 3: in which missing persons media is undertaken. And that's because

736
00:41:41,081 --> 00:41:45,001
Speaker 3: in Australia we have safe reporting guidelines in the media

737
00:41:45,401 --> 00:41:47,761
Speaker 3: for how we talk about suicide, how we talk about

738
00:41:47,801 --> 00:41:50,321
Speaker 3: drugs and alcohol, and how we talk about mental health.

739
00:41:51,121 --> 00:41:55,401
Speaker 3: Yet media and missing is a huge industry and we

740
00:41:55,481 --> 00:41:58,641
Speaker 3: don't have guidelines around how we make sure that we

741
00:41:58,681 --> 00:42:03,001
Speaker 3: don't further traumatize both families of missing people, but also

742
00:42:03,121 --> 00:42:06,641
Speaker 3: people who are currently missing, particularly in that short term stage,

743
00:42:07,041 --> 00:42:10,681
Speaker 3: around how we don't further alienate them or traumatize them

744
00:42:10,681 --> 00:42:14,201
Speaker 3: in the ways in which their stories are presented. So

745
00:42:14,441 --> 00:42:18,321
Speaker 3: over the last eighteen months, I undertook a survey, just

746
00:42:18,641 --> 00:42:22,361
Speaker 3: random population survey with the Australian community to say, what

747
00:42:22,401 --> 00:42:25,721
Speaker 3: do you think the intention of media is in missing

748
00:42:25,761 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 3: person stories? And the overwhelming majority of people said it's

749
00:42:30,001 --> 00:42:34,001
Speaker 3: to help locate people, and that media locate people. And

750
00:42:34,041 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: so I thought, that's a really interesting perception because from

751
00:42:37,521 --> 00:42:41,961
Speaker 3: my perspective, I see that media happens, yet I'm not

752
00:42:42,081 --> 00:42:45,681
Speaker 3: quite sure sometimes that it's the exact link that leads

753
00:42:45,721 --> 00:42:48,681
Speaker 3: to an outcome. It leads to lots of new clues,

754
00:42:49,841 --> 00:42:52,321
Speaker 3: but there isn't much data on what it actually does.

755
00:42:53,121 --> 00:42:57,361
Speaker 3: So then I took that data and I hosted a

756
00:42:57,361 --> 00:43:01,761
Speaker 3: focus group for family members who had done media but

757
00:43:01,841 --> 00:43:05,681
Speaker 3: that often had not been involved in research projects activities

758
00:43:05,721 --> 00:43:06,881
Speaker 3: like the Hope Narratives.

759
00:43:07,721 --> 00:43:09,521
Speaker 1: We hosted a focus group.

760
00:43:09,321 --> 00:43:13,081
Speaker 3: With Missed Foundation because it's always important to have lived

761
00:43:13,121 --> 00:43:16,761
Speaker 3: experience inclusion in that space. It was a two hour

762
00:43:16,801 --> 00:43:19,921
Speaker 3: focus group that actually went for five hours, and we

763
00:43:20,041 --> 00:43:24,681
Speaker 3: plotted out what enables people to do media, what stops

764
00:43:24,721 --> 00:43:28,321
Speaker 3: people from doing media, and if they could propose what

765
00:43:28,481 --> 00:43:31,401
Speaker 3: media guidelines would be best for them, what would that

766
00:43:31,481 --> 00:43:35,481
Speaker 3: look like. So that paper is currently under review to

767
00:43:35,521 --> 00:43:38,761
Speaker 3: be published at the moment, But what was really clear

768
00:43:38,961 --> 00:43:43,601
Speaker 3: is that families who already had some connections in the community,

769
00:43:44,161 --> 00:43:48,401
Speaker 3: or were well spoken, or were from middle class or

770
00:43:48,481 --> 00:43:52,961
Speaker 3: upper class communities had more of an opportunity to share

771
00:43:53,001 --> 00:43:56,801
Speaker 3: their story because people wanted to see their story, as

772
00:43:56,841 --> 00:44:01,161
Speaker 3: well as people where the person who was missing didn't

773
00:44:01,161 --> 00:44:03,841
Speaker 3: look like they were involved in their own disappearance, that

774
00:44:03,921 --> 00:44:07,521
Speaker 3: they didn't just walk away, or that they were not

775
00:44:07,641 --> 00:44:09,121
Speaker 3: the perfect victim.

776
00:44:09,641 --> 00:44:10,921
Speaker 1: So it was really.

777
00:44:10,681 --> 00:44:15,681
Speaker 3: Interesting to understand that perspective, as well as the energy

778
00:44:15,841 --> 00:44:18,921
Speaker 3: that was required by families over the years to constantly

779
00:44:19,601 --> 00:44:24,041
Speaker 3: put on a happy face, say yes to all media opportunities,

780
00:44:24,441 --> 00:44:27,561
Speaker 3: perform in a way that meant that their story was

781
00:44:27,561 --> 00:44:29,601
Speaker 3: going to be shared, that people would click on it,

782
00:44:29,641 --> 00:44:32,241
Speaker 3: that they would like it. But that what was most

783
00:44:32,281 --> 00:44:38,601
Speaker 3: significant from that was families didn't say media helps locate people.

784
00:44:39,281 --> 00:44:42,601
Speaker 3: All of them said, we have to do media because

785
00:44:42,681 --> 00:44:46,121
Speaker 3: we are concerned about the deficits in the police investigation.

786
00:44:46,881 --> 00:44:49,921
Speaker 3: We engage media to bridge the gap between what we

787
00:44:50,161 --> 00:44:52,761
Speaker 3: know was done to find the person versus what we

788
00:44:52,841 --> 00:44:56,921
Speaker 3: think needs to happen to actually find our person. And

789
00:44:56,961 --> 00:45:00,281
Speaker 3: then the third stage was two more focus groups, one

790
00:45:00,361 --> 00:45:04,041
Speaker 3: with police media and then one with mainstream media to

791
00:45:04,121 --> 00:45:07,241
Speaker 3: ask them what they think they are doing in terms

792
00:45:07,321 --> 00:45:10,401
Speaker 3: of why they do their work in terms of media

793
00:45:11,121 --> 00:45:14,401
Speaker 3: and what police media think they're doing with their media alerts.

794
00:45:15,001 --> 00:45:18,081
Speaker 3: So that paper's already under review as well to get

795
00:45:18,121 --> 00:45:21,801
Speaker 3: a better understanding. But from that it really showed that

796
00:45:22,481 --> 00:45:25,561
Speaker 3: police make that decision in their risk assessment. Yes, will

797
00:45:25,561 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 3: do a media alert and they push it out. Once

798
00:45:28,561 --> 00:45:32,121
Speaker 3: they do that, they very much lose control because media

799
00:45:32,161 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 3: will pick it up, and it's the editorial decisions of

800
00:45:35,441 --> 00:45:38,721
Speaker 3: that media outlet that will decide how the story is told,

801
00:45:39,401 --> 00:45:42,441
Speaker 3: what elements of the story they'll tell, whether or not

802
00:45:42,521 --> 00:45:45,081
Speaker 3: they'll just decide nobody wants to hear that story, we

803
00:45:45,201 --> 00:45:48,521
Speaker 3: just won't share it. So there's no equity. All families

804
00:45:48,521 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 3: are missing, people aren't on an even playing field. Yet

805
00:45:52,681 --> 00:45:58,561
Speaker 3: media makes sometimes police more accountable or other organizations more accountable.

806
00:45:58,881 --> 00:46:01,601
Speaker 3: But if not everyone gets the chance, then it's not fair.

807
00:46:02,441 --> 00:46:05,961
Speaker 3: So that's the we're moving towards the creation of some

808
00:46:06,121 --> 00:46:10,241
Speaker 3: media guidelines with every mind who's a mental health organization.

809
00:46:10,921 --> 00:46:12,761
Speaker 1: That's our big picture goal.

810
00:46:13,321 --> 00:46:16,641
Speaker 3: But it really shows that everyone thinks they're doing the

811
00:46:16,681 --> 00:46:21,161
Speaker 3: same work, but the community, the families of the missing people, police,

812
00:46:21,201 --> 00:46:24,681
Speaker 3: media and media are all taking different approaches as to

813
00:46:24,681 --> 00:46:27,201
Speaker 3: why media is being used. So it's been a really

814
00:46:27,241 --> 00:46:28,201
Speaker 3: interesting project.

815
00:46:28,281 --> 00:46:31,601
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, very interesting actually, and I kind of got

816
00:46:31,601 --> 00:46:33,321
Speaker 2: a little bit of trauma there and you were saying

817
00:46:33,361 --> 00:46:36,201
Speaker 2: a few things. I'm like, yes, yes, definitely, and yes,

818
00:46:36,401 --> 00:46:38,241
Speaker 2: it is a case of like I have done a

819
00:46:38,281 --> 00:46:41,921
Speaker 2: lot of media now over the years, and you know,

820
00:46:42,041 --> 00:46:44,841
Speaker 2: to reflect, for twenty two years, I had no media.

821
00:46:45,041 --> 00:46:48,321
Speaker 2: I did two articles in a magazine and it went nowhere.

822
00:46:48,361 --> 00:46:52,121
Speaker 2: I never heard from the magazine to say we didn't

823
00:46:52,161 --> 00:46:55,241
Speaker 2: get anybody come forward, or we did, or we've passed

824
00:46:55,321 --> 00:46:57,841
Speaker 2: us on or we've done this. So that has been

825
00:46:57,881 --> 00:47:01,721
Speaker 2: interesting as a journey as well. And you know, people

826
00:47:01,761 --> 00:47:04,001
Speaker 2: do pick and choose. You know, I'm in a position

827
00:47:04,201 --> 00:47:06,761
Speaker 2: now where I would like to go and do things

828
00:47:06,801 --> 00:47:08,681
Speaker 2: like I've had lots and lots of people when there

829
00:47:08,761 --> 00:47:13,081
Speaker 2: was a massive flurry of things happening, and I had

830
00:47:13,161 --> 00:47:16,241
Speaker 2: people begging me to come on and do stories with

831
00:47:16,361 --> 00:47:20,841
Speaker 2: them on TV and whatnot, and then the flurry has finished,

832
00:47:21,201 --> 00:47:23,281
Speaker 2: and now I'm at a position where I can talk

833
00:47:23,321 --> 00:47:25,201
Speaker 2: to them and say hey, I'd like to come on,

834
00:47:25,281 --> 00:47:27,881
Speaker 2: and they're like, oh, pass. You know, your story is

835
00:47:27,921 --> 00:47:32,481
Speaker 2: not important now because there's no trauma behind it, And

836
00:47:33,441 --> 00:47:36,161
Speaker 2: that is very difficult to manage. It is because my

837
00:47:36,201 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: story is not over yet, and.

838
00:47:37,921 --> 00:47:42,081
Speaker 3: The expectations that people have about will they or won't

839
00:47:42,121 --> 00:47:45,201
Speaker 3: they do media doesn't set them up well for what

840
00:47:45,361 --> 00:47:48,121
Speaker 3: happens if media don't want to tell your story. Yeah,

841
00:47:48,121 --> 00:47:52,681
Speaker 3: but that's crushing for families and how manybody cares and

842
00:47:52,721 --> 00:47:55,601
Speaker 3: how many stories are people are interviewed, and.

843
00:47:55,521 --> 00:47:58,121
Speaker 2: As you say, they don't make it because the editor goes, oh,

844
00:47:58,281 --> 00:48:00,721
Speaker 2: that doesn't actually cut the cheese today, We're not going

845
00:48:00,761 --> 00:48:01,361
Speaker 2: to put that on.

846
00:48:01,321 --> 00:48:05,161
Speaker 3: There exactly, or it's edited in a way that meets

847
00:48:05,201 --> 00:48:08,601
Speaker 3: the editorial interest of the story, or it gets connected

848
00:48:08,601 --> 00:48:12,201
Speaker 3: to other missing persons stories, but that's not the story

849
00:48:12,241 --> 00:48:13,961
Speaker 3: that the family thought they were doing.

850
00:48:14,841 --> 00:48:18,521
Speaker 2: We did a story we Channel seven on Spotlight actually,

851
00:48:18,721 --> 00:48:22,321
Speaker 2: and it ended up going over two nights and there

852
00:48:22,441 --> 00:48:26,361
Speaker 2: was two different stories that I sort of were featured

853
00:48:26,361 --> 00:48:28,721
Speaker 2: on the same night. So instead of doing mum's story

854
00:48:28,841 --> 00:48:31,921
Speaker 2: all on one night. It was broken up over two

855
00:48:31,921 --> 00:48:34,641
Speaker 2: weeks and probably to extend the audience. I don't know

856
00:48:34,641 --> 00:48:36,521
Speaker 2: what their mindset is, but let's just use this as

857
00:48:36,521 --> 00:48:41,481
Speaker 2: an example. And Kathleen Fulberg, she had just been released

858
00:48:41,481 --> 00:48:44,881
Speaker 2: from jail, so that was the big story that then

859
00:48:45,241 --> 00:48:47,841
Speaker 2: my story came in after her. So the first part

860
00:48:47,921 --> 00:48:50,721
Speaker 2: of part one, which was my side of that story,

861
00:48:51,161 --> 00:48:53,961
Speaker 2: and then the second week was when Allison and the

862
00:48:54,041 --> 00:48:59,001
Speaker 2: team went overseas with Rick Blum's daughter and they traveled

863
00:48:59,001 --> 00:49:01,881
Speaker 2: through Belgium and whatnot. And you know what was really interesting.

864
00:49:01,961 --> 00:49:06,001
Speaker 2: Jonie then started talking to someone who actually knew someone

865
00:49:06,081 --> 00:49:09,641
Speaker 2: and she said, oh, have you seen the Spotlight program?

866
00:49:09,681 --> 00:49:12,241
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, that's the story about

867
00:49:12,281 --> 00:49:15,241
Speaker 2: the daughter who's disgrunted because her dad left her a

868
00:49:15,281 --> 00:49:20,641
Speaker 2: debt in Belgium. So I think my mind just blew

869
00:49:20,761 --> 00:49:25,161
Speaker 2: because I went wow. So there was no concept or

870
00:49:25,201 --> 00:49:28,441
Speaker 2: thought process in that space about my mum's actually a

871
00:49:28,481 --> 00:49:30,801
Speaker 2: missing person, and this is why that story was done.

872
00:49:30,961 --> 00:49:33,841
Speaker 2: Their focus was purely about the daughter who went to

873
00:49:33,881 --> 00:49:37,241
Speaker 2: Belgium looking to try and find documents and saying that

874
00:49:37,321 --> 00:49:40,041
Speaker 2: she was progrungent of her dad. Yes, and that was

875
00:49:40,161 --> 00:49:42,521
Speaker 2: really telling for me, Like that was a moment for

876
00:49:42,601 --> 00:49:46,961
Speaker 2: me where I went, Wow, the interpretation is so different

877
00:49:47,081 --> 00:49:49,481
Speaker 2: and so important. And I bang on about this all

878
00:49:49,521 --> 00:49:51,921
Speaker 2: the time, Sarah, that you know your words.

879
00:49:51,601 --> 00:49:54,161
Speaker 1: Matter, they do well.

880
00:49:54,201 --> 00:49:56,601
Speaker 2: Listen. I think I've taken up a lot of your

881
00:49:56,641 --> 00:49:59,561
Speaker 2: time this morning. Thank you so much. I think that

882
00:49:59,601 --> 00:50:02,681
Speaker 2: you're a true champion in my eyes, and I'm personally

883
00:50:02,801 --> 00:50:05,921
Speaker 2: very grateful one that we've met in per We've had

884
00:50:06,121 --> 00:50:09,201
Speaker 2: a good chat and good time. You've taken time to

885
00:50:09,641 --> 00:50:13,001
Speaker 2: hear me and listen to me and now extending that

886
00:50:13,081 --> 00:50:15,161
Speaker 2: and doing more and more all the time. And you know,

887
00:50:15,241 --> 00:50:18,321
Speaker 2: I think that's awesome. I do believe. You've got a

888
00:50:18,321 --> 00:50:21,201
Speaker 2: book coming out in twenty twenty six. What is the

889
00:50:21,241 --> 00:50:22,801
Speaker 2: book called and what is that about.

890
00:50:23,801 --> 00:50:26,761
Speaker 3: It's called Living in the Liminal Space, and it's actually

891
00:50:26,841 --> 00:50:30,881
Speaker 3: a book for how to teach about ambiguous loss in

892
00:50:30,921 --> 00:50:34,361
Speaker 3: social work, counseling and psychology, because as much as we

893
00:50:34,401 --> 00:50:36,241
Speaker 3: can try and reach out to people who are already

894
00:50:36,281 --> 00:50:38,641
Speaker 3: out there working in the field, it needs to be

895
00:50:38,681 --> 00:50:42,521
Speaker 3: part of our foundational understandings. So it's a book that

896
00:50:42,641 --> 00:50:46,001
Speaker 3: explores my journey of being a social worker as well

897
00:50:46,041 --> 00:50:49,561
Speaker 3: as strategies to teach, and then case studies from families

898
00:50:49,601 --> 00:50:53,441
Speaker 3: to use in teaching material, because I think that we

899
00:50:53,561 --> 00:50:56,841
Speaker 3: need to get people early so that they recognize that

900
00:50:56,881 --> 00:50:59,121
Speaker 3: there are lots of places that you will interact with

901
00:50:59,201 --> 00:51:02,441
Speaker 3: families of missing people over your career, and you should

902
00:51:02,481 --> 00:51:05,881
Speaker 3: be able to link it back to remembering things that

903
00:51:05,921 --> 00:51:06,521
Speaker 3: you were taught.

904
00:51:06,881 --> 00:51:08,441
Speaker 1: So that's the intention of the book.

905
00:51:08,561 --> 00:51:11,921
Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing, and I think what an important tool to have.

906
00:51:12,041 --> 00:51:15,081
Speaker 2: And I really would like to see that the older

907
00:51:15,121 --> 00:51:19,681
Speaker 2: generation of the police force take time to actually listen

908
00:51:19,841 --> 00:51:24,041
Speaker 2: and understand some languages that potentially weren't around as I

909
00:51:24,081 --> 00:51:26,441
Speaker 2: spoke before. Like things have changed and there's lots of

910
00:51:26,481 --> 00:51:29,361
Speaker 2: new terms and things like that that have come to

911
00:51:29,401 --> 00:51:34,361
Speaker 2: the space, but even today, I'm still getting language to

912
00:51:34,521 --> 00:51:38,321
Speaker 2: me that is quite traumatizing for me from the older

913
00:51:39,161 --> 00:51:43,281
Speaker 2: experienced detectives who are leading the cases and their language.

914
00:51:43,281 --> 00:51:46,001
Speaker 2: They just don't seem to be understanding or hearing or

915
00:51:46,041 --> 00:51:49,641
Speaker 2: taking advice on better ways to manage that. And I

916
00:51:49,681 --> 00:51:52,881
Speaker 2: really would like to see that change. Actually, it's not

917
00:51:52,961 --> 00:51:55,601
Speaker 2: just about the new recruits coming in. We need to

918
00:51:55,721 --> 00:51:59,601
Speaker 2: change and help and support the ones making the calls

919
00:51:59,761 --> 00:52:03,841
Speaker 2: because they're the ones usually making assumptions and making decisions

920
00:52:04,321 --> 00:52:07,001
Speaker 2: that aren't good for the missing person, and that feeds

921
00:52:07,041 --> 00:52:10,401
Speaker 2: back down through into those new recruits who are coming

922
00:52:10,441 --> 00:52:12,841
Speaker 2: into the police force, and that needs to change too.

923
00:52:13,001 --> 00:52:16,961
Speaker 3: So, yeah, that language culture is really important. And you

924
00:52:17,001 --> 00:52:19,841
Speaker 3: would know that every family member that you've ever spoken

925
00:52:19,881 --> 00:52:23,641
Speaker 3: to has their one, two, three, or four or five

926
00:52:23,921 --> 00:52:28,081
Speaker 3: statements that have really stuck with them over the years.

927
00:52:28,441 --> 00:52:30,521
Speaker 1: That was said as a throwaway.

928
00:52:30,041 --> 00:52:34,521
Speaker 3: Line from an investigator that has really changed the trajectory

929
00:52:34,521 --> 00:52:36,121
Speaker 3: as to how they live with their trauma.

930
00:52:36,201 --> 00:52:39,081
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's hope that that book and your hard

931
00:52:39,081 --> 00:52:41,521
Speaker 2: work and Lauren, I know she's working hard in that

932
00:52:41,601 --> 00:52:44,761
Speaker 2: space too, and you know, hopefully will have her come

933
00:52:44,801 --> 00:52:46,361
Speaker 2: on the missing matter because I think she's got a

934
00:52:46,361 --> 00:52:48,641
Speaker 2: lot to talk about later. I think she said to

935
00:52:48,641 --> 00:52:50,241
Speaker 2: me maybe in the new year we can have a

936
00:52:50,321 --> 00:52:52,161
Speaker 2: catch up because she's so busy at the moment, But

937
00:52:52,561 --> 00:52:55,201
Speaker 2: can we finish today? Can you tell me in your

938
00:52:55,241 --> 00:52:57,721
Speaker 2: own words? You know why the missing matter.

939
00:52:59,081 --> 00:53:03,121
Speaker 3: That matter because the missing person themselves is often absent

940
00:53:03,201 --> 00:53:07,721
Speaker 3: from the story. Person that can humanize or animate that

941
00:53:07,841 --> 00:53:11,201
Speaker 3: stories the people who are left behind. So we all

942
00:53:11,241 --> 00:53:14,561
Speaker 3: need to be really careful and sensitive with making sure

943
00:53:14,561 --> 00:53:17,481
Speaker 3: that when we include people that we look after them

944
00:53:17,881 --> 00:53:20,881
Speaker 3: in terms of how they share their story, how they

945
00:53:21,081 --> 00:53:23,881
Speaker 3: live long term with not knowing, and how they get

946
00:53:23,921 --> 00:53:26,761
Speaker 3: the opportunity to talk about their missing person other than

947
00:53:26,801 --> 00:53:28,201
Speaker 3: being a missing person.

948
00:53:28,561 --> 00:53:29,601
Speaker 1: So that's why they matter.