1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: We've just come out of court and a major development 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: has happened in the trial of Aaron Patterson. 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 2: That's right, Brook, a jura has been dismissed. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: And what did Justice Christopher Bill say? 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 2: So he brought in all of the jurors to the 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: courtroom this morning. There were fifteen in the beginning, but 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 2: by this stage only fourteen were brought into the court 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: and he told them that one of their fellow jurors had. 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: Been discharged and did he give a reason. 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: He told the jury that he had received information about 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: this juror and that he was allegedly discussing the case 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: with his family and friends against Justice Bill's instructions. 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: And then Justice Bill reminded the jury that they should 14 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: only discuss the case with their fellow jurors in the 15 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: privacy of the jury room. 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: He reiterated to the jury that he had not made 17 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: a positive finding that this jury member definitely had discussed 18 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: the case with his family and friends, but rather he 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: couldn't dismiss the possibility that he had. 20 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: Thanks Laura, we'll head back to our makeshift podcast studio 21 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: in our airbnb to discuss this further. I'm Brook Grabert, 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: Craig and this is the mushroom cook. I'm back with 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: my colleague, court reporter Laura Possella. Laura, what a day. 24 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: Yes, it's been a big one. 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: Let's dissect it a bit more. What does this mean 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: for the trial? 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: Well, the fact that a juror has been discharged actually 28 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 2: doesn't mean too much. So there are fifteen jurors who 29 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: were mpaneled in this case when it started about three 30 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: weeks ago, but now we're at fourteen. However, only twelve 31 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 2: people will decide this case. So once all the evidence 32 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: has been heard and the closing addresses have been given, 33 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: only two jurors will now be balloted off instead of 34 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 2: three to get to that magic number of twelve. And 35 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: as our listeners may actually remember from one of our 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: first episodes, Justice Beale told the jury once they were unpaneled, 37 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: that they were allowed to talk about the fact that 38 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: they were sitting in on the Aaron Patterson trial. They 39 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: could even mention that the case was expected to run 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: for six weeks and the times they might be required 41 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: to come to court, But he made it very clear 42 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: that they weren't to get into a discussion with their 43 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 2: family and friends about the case. He said to them 44 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: shut down any attempt to draw you into conversation about it. 45 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: Great, now let's move on. We've spoken a bit about 46 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: the leftovers of that beef welling to meal throughout our 47 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: podcast episodes. So we said that it was fish from 48 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: a bin by a local police officer, then transported with 49 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: Aaron in an ambulance to Monash Medical Center, and we 50 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: described on yesterday's episode how it was examined by doctor 51 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: Kimille Truong. Today the jury heard from forensic toxicologist Dmitri 52 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: giro Stimulis. He was the one that examined the samples 53 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: of that leftover meal after a came to him from 54 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: doctor Truon. 55 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: Yes, So the journey of these leftovers continues. So, like 56 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 2: you mentioned, they've gone from doctor Trung's office at the 57 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: Royal Botanic Gardens. We're not quite sure exactly where they've 58 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: been over the course of August, but by August twenty 59 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: nine they're at a laboratory where they're being tested. Doctor 60 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 2: Girista Mulis works for the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine 61 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 2: and he spoke today about the analysis of toxicology and 62 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: how exactly they come to their conclusions. He was asked 63 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: today about this by Crown Prosecutor Sarah Lenthal. These are 64 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: their words, it's not their voices. 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: I'm going to start with the portions of food before 66 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: I get to the results of your analysis of the 67 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 3: portions of food. The jury has heard evidence in this 68 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 3: case from a mycologist called Camille Truong who examined little 69 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: pieces of mushroom from this same portion of food under 70 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 3: a microscope, and she did not find any death cat mushrooms. 71 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 3: Can you explain to the jury the difference between that 72 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: microscopic exam and what you did here. 73 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 4: Microscopic exam is different to what we undertake. We undertake 74 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 4: an analysis at much lower levels than what the naked 75 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 4: eye can actually detect or identify. We don't rely on 76 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 4: visual detection of compounds. We rely on sensitive instruments to 77 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 4: be able to detect very low quantities that are not visible. 78 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 4: So I'm not saying that they weren't visible in the 79 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 4: sample that was analyzed, but they'd be difficult in the 80 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 4: small amounts, particularly if they'd been put into food, to 81 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 4: identify as death cap mushrooms. So the only real way 82 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 4: of identifying poisons that have been put in food or 83 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 4: in other preparations is analytically and that's usually done by 84 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 4: labiotories such as ours. 85 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: So essentially, he said he was not looking for the 86 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: visual aspects of mushrooms, but rather the chemical compounds of 87 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: the death cap mushroom. Laura, what did he actually find 88 00:04:58,480 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: in the leftovers? 89 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: So, just to take a step back, today really was 90 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: another lesson for the jury, this time in the toxins 91 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: you find in death caps, which are called amatoxins, and 92 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 2: there's two in particular that are very lethal, alpha amanitan 93 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:20,119 Speaker 2: and beta amaniton. The court heard that these leftovers were 94 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: tested in the lab and they were specifically looking for 95 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 2: these two toxins. Photos were shown to the jury of 96 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 2: the leftovers and you could see that the toxicologists had 97 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: separated the leftovers into pastry samples, mushroom paste, and meat. 98 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: They ran their tests and the court heard that one 99 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 2: sample of the mushroom paste and one sample of the 100 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: meat tested positive for beta amaneiton. So again that is 101 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: one of the toxins found in death cap mushrooms. 102 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: Now, debris from the dehydrator was also tested. What was 103 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: found on that at some. 104 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: Point in time sample have been taken from this dehydrata 105 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: of vegetable matter, and this is what the toxicologists were 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: testing at their lab. The jury were shown the results 107 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 2: of their tests and four samples of the debris again 108 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: tested positive for both alpha amaneitan and beta amaniton. 109 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: The jury heard samples from the lunch guests were also 110 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: tested for amatoxins. This included samples of their blood, hair 111 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: and urine, and even liquid from Don Pattison's eye. 112 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: The results of these tests were shown to the jury 113 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: in a number of tables. The results showed that alpha 114 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 2: and beta amatoxins were detected in Don samples. This was 115 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: the same for Ian Wilkinson's samples, but the court heard 116 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: that samples taken from Gail and Heather did not show 117 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: any presence of these two toxins. 118 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: Now, samples were also taken from Aaron Pattison and her 119 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: kids Laura. What were the results. 120 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 2: Again, the court heard that there was no detection of 121 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: alpha and beta abatoxins. The jury is set to hear 122 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: from doctor Girista Mulis tomorrow, but it is worth noting 123 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: that in the prosecution opening, the jury heard that Don, 124 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: Gail and Heather's autopsy reports all show that their deaths 125 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: were compatible with the consumption of deathcat mushrooms. 126 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: Now, let's move on to our last witness that took 127 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: to the stand today. Child Protection worker Katrina Cripps spoke 128 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: to Erin on August one, which was three days after 129 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: the lunch. She told the jury that Aaron spoke to 130 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: her about her relationship with Simon. 131 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,239 Speaker 2: Our listeners may remember that in twenty twenty two, Simon 132 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: and Erin had a dispute relating to child support and 133 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: that formed the basis of some of the discussions between 134 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: Erin and Miss Cripps. She told the court that Erin 135 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: had told her that Simon had been mean in the past, 136 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: but he had never been nasty, but it was at 137 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: the time of the child support dispute that this changed 138 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: and she felt he had become nasty. 139 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: Miss Cripps also told the jury that Aaron told her 140 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: that Donn and Gale had been parents she had never had, 141 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: and they always treated her like a daughter in law, 142 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: but when her relationship changed with Simon, she felt like 143 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: they isolated her. Erin also spoke to Miss Cripps about 144 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: the lunch what was said Laura. 145 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: Miss Cripps asked Erin several questions about both the before 146 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: and the after of the lunch. She said that Erin 147 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: had told her she started to feel ill in the 148 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: evening the day of the lunch, so that being July 149 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: twenty nine, but she described having to drive her son's 150 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 2: friend home that evening. Our listeners may remember this evidence 151 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: from last week. Miss Cripps told the court that Erin 152 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: was worried that she was going to have an accident 153 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: while she was in the car, and when they stopped 154 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: off at the supermarket, she felt like she couldn't get 155 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: out of the car for these reasons. 156 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: So Miss Cripps told the jury that Aaron sitting down 157 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: in the car was essentially a cork for her diarrhea. 158 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: Justice Bill questioned Miss Cripps on the word cork and 159 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: whether Erin actually said that, and Miss Cripps confirmed that 160 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: Aaron did use the word. 161 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: Miss Cripps was also questioned at length, both during her 162 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 2: evidence in chief and cross examination about what Erin told 163 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: her about the lunch and specifically how much of her 164 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: Beef Wellington she ate. Miss Cripps was given permission to 165 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 2: look at notes that her colleague had made during their 166 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: interview with Erin back on August one, a few days 167 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: after the lunch, and according to these notes, Miss Cripps 168 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: said that Aaron's response when asked how much of the 169 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: beef wellington meal she ate, was half. 170 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: And Miss Cripps also asked Aarin whether she picked the mushrooms. 171 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: Aaron did not reply and instead was just looking at 172 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: her phone. 173 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 2: And before we finish off today, we will touch on 174 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: the fact that a best selling cookbook was drawn into 175 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: murder trial. 176 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct. The jury heard that Aaron used a 177 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: beef Wellington recipe from recipe Tineats by Nagi Mahashi. And 178 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: that's not the only reason Recipe tin Eads has been 179 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: in the news recently, but that's another story for now. 180 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: Head to the mushroomcook dot com dot a U for 181 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: more updates on the case.