1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: people of the Eura Nation. 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to a very special edition of The 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: Real Story. I am Joe Hildebrand, and this week we're 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 2: going to try to give you the real story behind 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: quite frankly, the only story on the planet at the moment, 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: which is this escalating crisis in the Middle East. It started, 8 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: of course, with the October seven invasion of Israel by 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: Hamas on the southern border. It then turned into a 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: fight on Israel's northern and southern borders, with Hesbula coming 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: from the south of Lebanon into the north of Israel, 12 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: and now it has escalated into what appears to be 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 2: a war between Israel and Iran. We've steered clear of 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: this topic largely on this podcast because, frankly, as the 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: saner political leaders are saying, there's not much anyone in 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: Australia can deal about this. But I think we do 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: still have to look at what is the real kind 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 2: of truth of this, if you like. And I'm not 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: talking about who's right and who's wrong. I'm talking about 20 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: how we actually see this story. And it's taken me 21 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: a very very long time to realize how we need 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: to look at this if there is going to be 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: any progress whatsoever, And then just recently it kind of 24 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: dawned on me like an epiphany. It is something that 25 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 2: people on both sides have been failing to do. It's 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: something obviously Hamas and HEZBLA and Israel have largely been 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 2: failing to do, and I should say Benjamin Netanyahu and 28 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: the coalition he's with, rather than the state of Israel itself. 29 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: It is something that the players have been reluctant to 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: do because the people who seek to benefit the most 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 2: from this conflict are the ones who want to perpetuate 32 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: it and get political capital from it, not the people 33 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: who want to end it, despite what they may say. 34 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: But I have been to Israel. 35 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: I was in Israel the year before the October a 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: seventh attack. I've been to the area where that attack 37 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: took place. I've been to the north of Israel and 38 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: seen the Palestinian flags, seeing the Hesbula flags flying just 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: on the other side of the border. There's a phenomenal experience. 40 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: I went there as a guest of the Australia Israel 41 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: Jewish Affairs Council, and they paid for it. They did 42 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 2: try to make as balanced as possible. I think it 43 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: was obviously something that they wanted to sort of showcase 44 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: the legitimacy or showcase at least the complexity of the 45 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: situation there. So I'm going to talk a little bit 46 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 2: about that and some of the people I spoke to there, 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: including the Palestinian Prime Minister in the West Bank, which 48 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: is very different to Gaza. I also last week spoke 49 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: to Tony Burke, who was the most senior minister in 50 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: charge of National security in the Australian government. He's also 51 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 2: someone who is having to defend his seat in Southwest 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: Sydney from the New Muslim Votes movement, and they are 53 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: another group that is clearly trying to politicize, by their 54 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: very nature, politicize the tragedy of what's happening in Palestine 55 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: and the Middle East more generally. And later on in 56 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: this episode, we're also going to speak to voices that 57 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: haven't been heard before. This's an exclusive interview with an 58 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: organization that is coming out to Australia next month. 59 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: It's called Standing Together. It has been organized. 60 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: By a group called the New Israel Fund, and two 61 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 2: of the speakers who are coming out one is an 62 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: Arab Palestinian, an Israeli citizen, but an Arab Palestinian, and 63 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: the other is a Jewish Israeli And these are two 64 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: people who are actually working together, and they're coming out 65 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: to host a series of sort of interfaith dialogues between 66 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: Jews and Muslims most specifically, of course, but others generally, 67 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 2: and say, look, how can we actually get together and 68 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: solve this? And critically, they believe in Israeli legitimacy, they 69 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: believe in Israel's right to exist, but they also believe 70 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: in a two state solution. They believe in Palestine's right 71 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: to exist as well. And these are the voices that 72 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: you don't normally hear, the voices in the middle that say, 73 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: hang on a minute, how can we actually find a 74 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: way forward? They're the ones that get drowned out by 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: that extremist rhetoric on either side. 76 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: So that is what we're going to be getting into 77 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: in this episode, and it's going to be something I 78 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: think you probably never heard before. So strap yourselves in 79 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: and have a listen. 80 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: Now. The first thing I want to talk about on 81 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: this episode is the very first personal special guest we 82 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: were introduced to when I went as part of a 83 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 2: delegation on this fact finding or study tour of Israel, 84 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 2: and our full disclaimer, this was hosted and paid for 85 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: by the Australia Israel. 86 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: Jewish Affairs Council. 87 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: It was organized by them, but there was an attempt 88 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: by them to explore both sides the argument, and this 89 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: included a trip into the West Bank and a meeting 90 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: with the Prime Minister of Palestine, which is a pretty 91 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: high level, high status and pretty dare i say it, 92 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: skeptical voice in the debate over Palestinian and Israeli sovereignty. 93 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 2: But before we got to any of that, the person 94 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: we spoke to was actually an Australian now working in 95 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 2: Israel as a negotiator at the table as a negotiator 96 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,559 Speaker 2: between Israel and Palestine to try to bash out some 97 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: kind of peace or some kind of settlement that would 98 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: be acceptable to both of them. And he's someone who 99 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: got very close at times, and then of course these 100 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: agreements would fall apart or there would be no acceptance 101 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: on one side that the other side was being legitimate 102 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 2: and what they were saying, I'm putting all that aside 103 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 2: at the moment. The first thing he said to me though, 104 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: and the group of us, was that in order to 105 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 2: be a negotiator, the first thing you had to do, 106 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: and this guy's is absolute top level one, if not 107 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: the top level one, and you kind of think, man, 108 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 2: if he can't negotiate a peace, then God help the 109 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 2: rest of us. But the first thing he said, and 110 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 2: I didn't understand it at the time, was that to 111 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: be a negotiat like this you actually have to be 112 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: almost more like a counselor. You have to be able 113 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: to deal with and understand not politics, but personal trauma. 114 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: And this is the thing that finally dawned on me 115 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: in recent days as I was speaking to other people 116 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: about it in the Australian community. And I'm broadcasting to 117 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: you this week from Melbourne, where I've just come down 118 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: for a funeral. So maybe everything's sort of just falling 119 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 2: into place and scales are finally peeling back from my eyes. 120 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: But the minute you dress up the Israeli Palestine conflict 121 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: as a political problem to be solved, you have in 122 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: order that you will not solve it. The minute you 123 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: say that this is a matter of left and right 124 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: or right and wrong, or who's got history on their side, 125 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: who's got the more legitimate claim is screwed. You will 126 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: not solve this problem. And this is what this guy 127 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: was trying to say to me. Now Again, I was 128 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: as naive as everyone else when he was saying it, 129 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: but I just realized it now. Perhaps as the situation 130 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: has escalated in the Middle East, there is no point 131 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: saying and this is where it all went wrong. From 132 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: the very beginning and the immediate aftermath of the October 133 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: seven attacks, this was something that was profoundly traumatic to Israel, 134 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: and Israelis both the citizens of the country and the 135 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: country as a whole, as well as obviously the people 136 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: who were directly affected, the people who were killed, the 137 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: people who were abducted, some of whom may still be 138 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: alive and being held as hostages, and their families and 139 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: their friends and their loved ones. This was not something 140 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: and you only have to think about every death that 141 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: you've ever had in your life. This is not a 142 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: political problem. This is not something that you immediately look 143 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: around and say, all right, who's to blame for this? 144 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: This is a moment of personal trauma. This is a 145 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: moment of immense personal grief and tragedy and trauma to you, 146 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: and if that is not understood, as this negotiator was 147 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: trying to tell us, if someone doesn't get that and 148 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: instead just says, well, that's what you get for being 149 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: an oppressor. That's because you're an apartheid state. That's because 150 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 2: you're on occupied territory. If that party doesn't get that, 151 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: that's it. You have locked them out of the conversation. 152 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: They will never understand that. And the saying goes both ways. 153 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: But of course, when Israel retaliated against Hamas for what 154 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 2: happened on October seventh, it visited death upon Gaza many 155 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: times over the death toll that they suffer. Now again, 156 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 2: I don't want to use words like proportionate, say that 157 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: all right, well, you know they killed a thousand of hours, 158 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: so we'll go and kill a thousand of theirs and 159 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: then we'll call it square. Life doesn't work like that, 160 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 2: and to think about it in those mathematical terms is 161 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: profoundly obviously sick and disturbing. But what you do have 162 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 2: is you have a nation state that is anxious about 163 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: whether or not it can even exist, that is surrounded 164 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: by what it sees as hossile forces on all sides, 165 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: trying to wipe it from the planet quite literally. And 166 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 2: for some organizations like a mass that is that stated claim. 167 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: Hence the slogan from the River to the Sea. And 168 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: again you have something not just political. And you know, 169 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: we can talk about Benjamin Nett Yahu and the people 170 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: who has to sidle up within the Nesset to stay 171 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: into power on one side. But again they're the ones 172 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: who are trying to make it political. What it is 173 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: for Israel in responding to October seven is in fact 174 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: deeply personal. It is an instinct for survival. It is 175 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: them seeing that they've been attacked, either directly as a 176 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: person or the families of someone who has been killed 177 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: or abducted, or as a citizen of a country that 178 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 2: this other side wants to wipe out. And again, if 179 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: you think of Australia, say for example, being the subject 180 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: of you know, a Chinese doctrine, just imagine if there 181 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: was some sort of you know, doctrine onearthed in Beijing 182 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: that said, no, Australia shouldn't exist, you know, we should 183 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: just wipe it out, get rid of them all, and 184 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: occupy it ourselves. Now you could argue that's how the 185 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: Palestinians feel as well. But the point being, you would 186 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: not say that's a political threat over there, that's a 187 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 2: threat to my very survival. That is a threat to 188 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: who I am. And just as much as that, if 189 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: you are the family of a child who's been killed 190 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: by a bomb or a rocket fired by Israel, you're 191 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: not going to say, well, a fair cop. You know 192 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: we started it on October seventh, so it's fair enough 193 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: that you know, and you know there's a tunnel underneath 194 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: my house that I didn't know about, and they were 195 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: targeting that, and so I guess, I guess it's understandable 196 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: that I'm now holding a dead child in my arms. 197 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: You are never ever, ever going to be able to 198 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: think that way. And so no matter what another side says, 199 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 2: that does not wash. And I can promise you, even 200 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: in completely non political situations, when people say my child died, 201 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: but I'll make sure their death wasn't in vain, that 202 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that their death was worth it. 203 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: It never does. 204 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: This is something and again this sounds so simple, and 205 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: it sounds so obvious, but as long as you are 206 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: thinking about this conflict in political terms and not in 207 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: personal terms, there can never be any progress from it. 208 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 2: You are never going to be able to convince one 209 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: side or the other that they are in the right 210 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 2: and the others in the wrong. As long as someone 211 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: has lost a mother, as long as someone has lost 212 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: a child, whoever has lost that child, I say, this 213 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: is someone who came close to losing your child myself. 214 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: You are on the side of that child. You are 215 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: on the said of your family, and whoever is a 216 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: threat to them, however, incidentally, however accidentally, they will be 217 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: the person you're opposed to. It is like the situation 218 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: in Northern Ireland. If you are a Catholic or a Protestant, 219 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how far back you go and who's 220 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 2: on the side of right or what it is. If 221 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 2: you're a Catholic, you and your people and your family 222 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 2: are going to be the side you are on. Likewise 223 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: if you're a Protestant. So what does this all mean 224 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 2: for Australia, Well, it means that if we are going 225 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: to turn this into a political issue in Australia, we 226 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: are not just having another political debate. We are importing 227 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 2: that visceral angry, traumatized tribalism, and once you've brought that in, 228 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: you can't get rid of it, and that's why you've 229 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 2: had political leaders and religious leaders out there all this 230 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: week and all the weeks before, saying we do not 231 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 2: want to bring this here, we cannot afford to bring 232 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: this here. And I was visiting Tony Burke in his 233 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 2: office in Southwest Sydney last week. We sat down for 234 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: a good long hour and talked about exactly this stuff. 235 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: And again, the difference between. 236 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 2: What he is experiencing in his electorate has almost a 237 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 2: quarter of the population there Muslim, overwhelmingly pro Palestine, as 238 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: you can imagine, but it's in a very different way 239 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: that you see snot knows little white unisocialists jumping up 240 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 2: and down about it in the inner city in Greens 241 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: dominated seats. For the people who he speaks to, again, 242 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: it's not a political issue, it's a personal issue. They've 243 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: got family over there, loved ones over there. People in 244 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: Lebanon now. There are a million displaced people in Lebanon now. 245 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: And if you are the family of one of those 246 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: displaced people in Lebanon, you are not worried about who's 247 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: on the side of right or who started it. You're 248 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: worried about whether your mum has got a house anymore. 249 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: You're worried about how she's going to afford to put 250 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: a roof over her head, or how she's going to 251 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: get her next meal. These are deeply personal problems for 252 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 2: such people. And that's why I've always had so much 253 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: more sympathy for people with direct links to the regions 254 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 2: rather than people who are trying to whip up rhetoric, 255 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: whip up outrage and politicize what for these people is 256 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: a moment of personal drama. And that is how we've 257 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: got to think about it. And again, you would have 258 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: seen this week there's plans for a vigil on October 259 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: seven for the Jewish community to commemorate their dead on 260 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:33,479 Speaker 2: that day. 261 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: A year ago. And what do we have. 262 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: We have people say, oh, we're going to use the 263 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: same day as a vigil or a protest or a 264 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: demonstration about whatever the Palestinian cause, the Palestinian struggle. No, no, 265 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: by all means, have your demonstrations, say what you're like, 266 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: But surely at this moment of personal drama, surely at 267 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: the memorial an anniversary of the death of the greatest 268 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: execution of Jewish people since the Holocaust, just do it 269 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: on another day. Don't impose politics on that personal trauma, 270 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: that real personal trauma, because of course, as soon as 271 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: you do that, as soon as you politicize death, as 272 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: soon as you politicize killing, then that legitimizes more death 273 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: and more killing because you've given it an ideological justification, 274 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: you've given it a political fig leaf that suddenly makes 275 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: it okay. It's not okay, And that is what we've 276 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: got to get back to. We've got to get back 277 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: to the fact that any killing of innocence is never okay, 278 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 2: and you have to look at everything through that frame. 279 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: And that applies equally to both sides, because ultimately both 280 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: sides are undergoing the same kind of trauma. And as 281 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: long as they make it a political issue and not 282 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: a personal issue, not a human issue, then neither side 283 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 2: will ever be able to see it. And if neither 284 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 2: side is ever able to see the suffering that is 285 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: going on across the fence, across the border in another home, 286 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 2: then there is absolutely no way we will ever see 287 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: peace in the Middle East or anywhere else. Our next 288 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: guests on the Real Story are probably the most important 289 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: and profound guests we've had. They're part of an organization 290 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: that is coming out to Australia next month to hold 291 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: a series of talks and workshops with interfaith groups and 292 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: other figures to try to promote a lasting piece between 293 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: Israel and Palestine. And the name of the organization who 294 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: is standing together, and it's put together by a group 295 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: called the New Israel Fund Australia, which recognizes of course 296 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: the State of Israel, but also as part of a 297 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: two state solution with the State of Palestine and is 298 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 2: searching for, as the name suggests, new ways to find 299 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: and create a lasting piece. And two of the speakers 300 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 2: who are coming over doctor Shad Bushara, who is an 301 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: Arab Palestinian and also an Israeli citizen, and Nadav Shafet, 302 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 2: who is a Jewish Israeli citizen and is very active 303 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 2: in the lgbtq I space as well as helping to 304 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 2: try to forge this new and some would say unlikely partnership. 305 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: Hopefully it will be much more likely in the future. 306 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 2: But both of you, welcome to the real story. It's 307 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 2: a pleasure to have you. 308 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, pleasure to be here. 309 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: Thank you. 310 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 2: Now you guys are coming in live as we record 311 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: this from Israel, where it's early morning there Nadav. You're 312 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: in Tel Aviv. I might just quickly begin by saying, 313 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 2: how has the recent fighting, the bombardment from Iranian missiles 314 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 2: now affected you? Are you safe and well and where 315 00:17:59,000 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: are you at the moment? 316 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 3: Yeah? 317 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 5: It it has definitely affected us. Last night was absolutely terrifying. 318 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 5: Pretty much every single person in Israel had to quickly 319 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 5: find a safe room to protect ourselves. 320 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 3: From from the Iranian attack. 321 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 5: And I'll also say that I live in Tel Avivafo 322 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 5: and at the same time of the Iranian attack, there 323 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 5: was also a terrorist attack in Yaffo, So you know, 324 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 5: people were wondering, do you do you run to a 325 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 5: to a shelter and you know, be risk you know, 326 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 5: being hit by by by a terrorist on the street, 327 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 5: or do you stay in your in your house if 328 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 5: you don't have a safe room and being risked by 329 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 5: hit by an Iranian missile. 330 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 3: And it's it's it was quite scary. 331 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 5: So at the moment, we can get into this later, 332 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 5: we know that, you know, we're not feeling secure and 333 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 5: our government is not really providing us uh security. So 334 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 5: that's kind of where I am now right now, at 335 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 5: my father's house actually because he has a safe from 336 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 5: my own house does not have a safe room. 337 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: It's incredibly storyboring. And again, as we've been saying, these 338 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: are not just matters of politics. To people who are involved, 339 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 2: there as a matters of intense personal anxiety, fear, often tragedy. 340 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: Shah Bha talk us through how how have you been 341 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 2: impacted and whereabouts you at the moment. 342 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 4: It's horrifying, It's really horrifying. I was at home yesterday 343 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 4: and then when we heard about the ring An attack, 344 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 4: I directly came to my girlfriend's apartment, even though she 345 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 4: also doesn't have a shelter. But the sirens actually started 346 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 4: on my way to while I'm driving my car, so 347 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 4: I had to stop and and I had to find 348 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 4: the shelter in a shopping mall on my way. And 349 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 4: then I was the shopping mall for almost an hour 350 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 4: and then I continued my drive. And to be honest, 351 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 4: yesterday it was actually horrifying attack. But I'm young, I'm 352 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 4: almost I'm thirty one years old, but I have been 353 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 4: I witnessed endless wars already in my age, and I 354 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 4: think nobody deserves this. 355 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: No quite right, and you've forged this alliance. It's part 356 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: of a sort of broader project to try to achieve 357 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: that end. Just talk us through what's Standing Together actually 358 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 2: stands for and what it is you are trying to 359 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: do that's different to everything that has been tried and 360 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: filed in the past. 361 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, Staying Together. 362 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 5: We are a grassroots movement in Israel mobilizing Jewish and 363 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 5: Palestinian citizens of Israel to fight for peace, equality and 364 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 5: social justice. We had the largest grassroots Jewish Arab Jewish 365 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 5: Palestinian movement in Israel. We have twelve local chapters across 366 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 5: the country, fourteen student chapters. We're organized in cities and 367 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 5: college campuses. We do protests, and we organize people to 368 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 5: fight for lasting change, to fight, you know, on the 369 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 5: short term right now, this means ending this war, achieving 370 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 5: a hostage release and ceasefire agreement that will bring the 371 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 5: hostages back and end this endless light cycle of bloodshed. 372 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 5: But we also know that in the long term we 373 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 5: need to achieve Israeli Palestinian peace if we want to 374 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 5: live as free and equal and. 375 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 3: People who can you know, just live their lives. I 376 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 3: think we're fed. 377 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 5: Up with this, with this war, with this war and 378 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 5: this cycle of wars. 379 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 2: And obviously the mindstream, and I think the only humane 380 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 2: and sensible position on this long term is for two 381 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: state solution. Disturbingly, though we know that both you know, 382 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: often the Ladystship the US as you know, and we 383 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: know the chance of from the rivers to the sea, 384 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: you're often seen as code for getting rid of Israel altogether. Likewise, 385 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: we've seen Benjamin net Yahoo and a lot of right 386 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: wingers in Israel saying, well, no, now is not the 387 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: time and arguably never will be the time for a 388 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: Palestinian state or recognition of a Palestinian state. So we've 389 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 2: actually seen maybe it was always just lip service for 390 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: those on the sort of fringes of this debate, but 391 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: we've now actually seen prominent figures, prominent forces on both 392 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: sides saying, you know what, two state solution that's out 393 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 2: the window, and that to me sounds very disturbing from 394 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: here on the other side of the world. 395 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: It must be more so from where you are, Shad. 396 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: I wonder if you could talk us through how as 397 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 2: an Arab Palestinian who's also an Israeli citizen you support 398 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: a two state solutions, as does the Standing Together movement. 399 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: Tell us why that is and why that is important 400 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: to you as both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen. 401 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 4: I mean my narrative, and I think also the movement's narrative. 402 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 3: He believes that we have this. 403 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 4: Geographical area between the river and the sea, and we 404 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 4: know both people already live here. I mean people that 405 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 4: identify themselves as Palestinian Arabs and do so I defined 406 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 4: themselves as Israeli Jewish, and both of them have the 407 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 4: right for self determination. Both of them have the right 408 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 4: for independence. And therefore this is my narrative as well, 409 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 4: I mean due to also has If we look at 410 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 4: historical context also it shows that for both people have 411 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 4: the right to be here, and they I would say 412 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 4: it even more clear. We are talking about a prop 413 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 4: sim at least seven million in Palestinian Arab, seven million 414 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 4: Israeli Jewish. No one is going anywhere, no one is 415 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 4: going to be kicked out, no one is gonna find 416 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 4: another homeland. Both of us, I mean, both sides call 417 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 4: this place their homeland. And the only way to ensure 418 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 4: to ensure that both sides will live safe and secure 419 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 4: and free is with that two state solutions. 420 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 2: One of the things I mentioned earlier that I went 421 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: on a study trip of Israel that was sponsored by 422 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 2: the Australia Israel Jewish Affairs Council. And notwithstanding, you know, 423 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: people say, oh, they just do this to put pressure 424 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: on you, and it's all just propaganda, I felt it 425 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: was much more nuanced and complex and even handed than that. 426 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 2: But the one thing that clearly struck me as absolutely 427 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: unjustifiable by a small number of Israelis and there their 428 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: advocates in the Nessa, is the settlement on you know, 429 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 2: agreed upon Palestinian land, and that that struck me as 430 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 2: as clearly against any kind of sense of goodwill or 431 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 2: genuine aspiration for a negotiated peace. Likewise, the actions of 432 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: Palestinian terrorists blowing themselves up at border checkpoints or conducting 433 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: other attacks NDAVA might go to you. How much goodwill 434 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: do you think there genuinely is on either side, the leadership, 435 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: especially of either side, as compared to the people on 436 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 2: the ground who seem to be the fodder in all this. 437 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: And you know, you think of the sort of factional 438 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 2: rivalries between Fatah and Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza, 439 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: and you think about Benjamin Netna, who's and his Liquid 440 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 2: Party having to form increasingly right wing ultra conservative coalition 441 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 2: in order to shore up support. 442 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: In the parliament. The nessit is Israeli parliament, of. 443 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: Course, do you I feel like there's a sense where 444 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 2: neither saw the people are now the sad being represented 445 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 2: by their leadership, or at least their best interests are 446 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 2: not being represented, their lives are not being represented. 447 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I don't think I could have said 448 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 5: it better myself. I think it is clear that our 449 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 5: leaderships are not representing the people. You know, if you 450 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 5: ask the average person in Israel pastime, do you just 451 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 5: want this war to end? Do you want the hostages back? 452 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 5: Do you want peace? Do you want to just live 453 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 5: in prosperity. I think the answer will be yes. But 454 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 5: unfortunately our leadership and we and we come from the 455 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 5: position of being citizens of Israel, and you know, we're 456 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 5: looking first and foremost, you know, at at Netanyao and 457 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 5: his extreme right government, and we see that there is 458 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 5: definitely no goodwill to make peace. On the contrary, Natano 459 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 5: and his government are pushing for endless war, for endless 460 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 5: military control of millions of Palestinians in the West Bank 461 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 5: and siege on Gaza and this is you know, this 462 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 5: is one of their tactics, actually to stay in power 463 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 5: and to and to continue their rule and to continue 464 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 5: the right wing agenda. And this is completely in disconnect 465 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 5: with what the people want. And time and time again, 466 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 5: even today, even one year into this specific war, we 467 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 5: see that the polls show that the majority of Israelis 468 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 5: do want peace, do understand that peace is the only 469 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 5: solution that will bring any of us security and equality 470 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 5: and prosperity. So so there is definitely a huge disconnect, 471 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 5: but we definitely need to replace this government in order 472 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 5: for for us to advance to any sort of any 473 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 5: sort of real solution and Chad. 474 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: Obviously, the situation is a bit more complex on the 475 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: Palestinian side, where again you have kind of multiple factions, 476 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 2: different organizations. You've got Fatah, which is controlling nominally at 477 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: least arts of the West Bank and hasn't had an 478 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: election for a decade i think now or more. You've 479 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 2: got the Gaza where Hamas was elected in election about 480 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: as long ago. And then you've got Hesbler operating out 481 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: of the south of Lebanon where they've got some representation 482 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 2: in the Lebanese Parliament but seemed to sort of control 483 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: the southern parts of the country, you know, almost like 484 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: a fiefdom, it would seem. How much do you think 485 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: the Palestinian cause is being undermined by either the extremism 486 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: or the self interest of the figures that sit atop. 487 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 4: It in my opinion, and it's not only in my opinion, 488 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: it's a fact and it's a truth that we're not 489 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 4: that extremists from both sides they I mean, they feed themselves. 490 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 4: Not so long ago we heard that the Natania who 491 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 4: was the handling money for Hamas for them to survive. 492 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, the only the only thing that 493 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 4: I'm I'm able to think about right now, that extremists 494 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 4: from both sides are feeding themselves and we must find 495 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 4: an alternative alternative for this extremism from both sides and 496 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 4: talking about the Fatah and talking about Hamas and talking 497 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 4: about Hasbella. In my opinion, as an Israeli citizen, I 498 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 4: right now I care about changing the fact on the 499 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 4: ground in Israel right now because and I don't elect in. 500 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: And Hamas and his blood the b on your control. 501 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: There's nothing you can do about them, so you can 502 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 2: so you're focused on changing the ragmen his weebe. But 503 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 2: is it not also the problem as you say, they 504 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 2: feed themselves. So by the terrorist attack of October seven, 505 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: which I know your organizations has been, you know, has 506 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: been very very involved in trying to address the trauma 507 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: that that cause and call that out. That that gives 508 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: a sort of legitimacy to netnah doesn't it. It means, oh see, 509 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 2: they've attacked us, and that gives him an excuse to 510 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 2: then unleash this horrendous amount of force in response to it. 511 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: So it is a problem in that those Palestinian figureheads 512 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 2: and those terrorist tactics give Netnyahu power that he otherwise 513 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: would not have. 514 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: Is that a fair assessment? 515 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 4: Do you think it's not only in Natania? We're talking 516 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 4: about a very very right, I mean extremist government that 517 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 4: also composed of Bengvid and small trich and people with 518 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 4: their musianics illusions. I mean, what can you expect? 519 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: And this is another problem, isn't it. It's not just 520 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: net Nihahu, but that his Liquid Party has gone further 521 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: and further to the right as it's had to forge 522 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: alliances with more and more sort of extreme elements, and 523 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: one you refer to as this sort of Messianic element, 524 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: which actually believes that, you know, the Messiah won't come 525 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: unless Israel is whole again. And so again, they're almost 526 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: that's their kind of river to the sea moment. Isn't 527 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: it that we actually know there is no two state solution. 528 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 2: We need to get rid of Palestine and we need 529 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: to reclaim Israel for the Jewish people in order to 530 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 2: bring on the Messiah. I mean, that's a pretty hard 531 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 2: position to negotiate with. 532 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, And to be honest, in my opinion, 533 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 4: the coalition, the government's coalition that meant of Nataniajo and 534 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 4: this two parties. Somehow Nataniaho is using them to save 535 00:31:54,800 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 4: his church, to save his position in the government. Is 536 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 4: first of all, and second of all, what you're talking 537 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 4: about them Isianic and the illusion and so on. It 538 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 4: actually it's it's we hear it, We hear it. At 539 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 4: the beginning of the world, they were actually people are saying, 540 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 4: we want to resettle Gaza, we want to reoccupy Gaza, 541 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 4: and so on. I mean, I mean it's happening. 542 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,479 Speaker 2: That's right, and obviously and obviously that puts political pressure 543 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: on it Nyahoo to do what he has done, which 544 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 2: is basically say I'm abandoning any sort of hope for 545 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: or pursuit of a two state solution in the near future. Mark, 546 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: come back to you, Ni, what do you what do 547 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: you guys? You're coming out to Australia next month. What 548 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 2: are you planning to do here and what are you 549 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: hoping to achieve? 550 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, we are coming to Australia, Shine and I next month. 551 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 5: And first and foremost, we want to just tell people 552 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 5: about what we're doing with the work we're doing on 553 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 5: the ground in Standing Together in Israel, and we want 554 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 5: to connect with our supporters. We have groups of supporters 555 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 5: all across the world Friends of Standing Together. You can 556 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 5: find more information on that on our website. And want 557 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 5: to connect with our supporters, and we want to kind 558 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 5: of share what we're doing and gather support for and 559 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 5: show people that in order to be to side with 560 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 5: the people on the ground, with the Palestinians and the 561 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 5: and the Jews who are being affected so horribly by 562 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 5: this war, you know, we concide with with the Palestinians 563 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 5: and the Jews on the ground, and and that doesn't 564 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 5: mean siding with with the Israeli government or with Ramas 565 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 5: on the contrary. It means opposing those very very strongly. 566 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 5: It means opposing this war and this continued war and 567 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 5: the military occupation of Palestinians, and it means that we 568 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 5: do see a path forward. 569 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 3: We do know that a different future is possible. 570 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 5: And you know, in saying together, we we kind of 571 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 5: exemplify in a certain way that and you know, Shida 572 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 5: and I are both members of the leadership, are staying together, 573 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 5: and we fight together for this different future, and you 574 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 5: know we're also personally friends. And this kind of message 575 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 5: that we can fight together and we can change our 576 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 5: reality together, and that we we know it's possible. 577 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 3: We want to share this. 578 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: Well, God willing or perhaps people willing, you will succeed 579 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: in that and we will finally have some kind of 580 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: lasting peace and togetherness between Israeli and Palestinian people. Doctor 581 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 2: Shad Bashara and nad Of Chaffett, thank you so much 582 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 2: for joining us on The Real Story. 583 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. 584 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 5: Thank you. 585 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: Well, that's it for us this week at the Real Story. 586 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 2: I won't bombard you with the usual stuff, but in 587 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 2: pretty important episodes. So if you like what you hear, 588 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: if you think it's important, please just share it. With 589 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: a friend, because the more people hear this stuff, hopefully 590 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 2: the closer we get to something resembling peace in this 591 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 2: goddamn crazy world. Take care and i'll see you next week.