WEBVTT - Why trans people need to be counted in the census

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven Am.

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<v Speaker 1>The census is supposed to reflect the country back to

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<v Speaker 1>us to give vital data on who makes up Australia,

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<v Speaker 1>but this week it's become a political landmine for the

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<v Speaker 1>federal government, who first canceled questions on sexual orientation and

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<v Speaker 1>gender identity, only to partially reverse that decision amid tense backlash.

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<v Speaker 1>But the question of data isn't just academic. This debate

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<v Speaker 1>is coming at a time when the Victorian Coroner has

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<v Speaker 1>specifically asked for more data on the trans community following

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<v Speaker 1>a number of young trans women killing themselves. Today, writer

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<v Speaker 1>and co editor of Nothing to Hide Voices of Trans

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<v Speaker 1>and gender Diverse Australia, Sam Elkin on the government's decision

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<v Speaker 1>to exclude trans people from the census and why being

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<v Speaker 1>counted could save lives. It's Tuesday, September three, and just

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<v Speaker 1>a warning. Today's episode discusses suicide. Please take care while listening. Sam,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome back to seven Am. First, it's great to have

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<v Speaker 1>you back on the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, absolute pleasure. And yeah, welcome back to you as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh thank you, so Sam. I thought we could start

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<v Speaker 1>by going back to December twenty twenty to the moment

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<v Speaker 1>that you heard the news that Bridget Flack, who was

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<v Speaker 1>a twenty eight year old trans woman, went missing. What

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<v Speaker 1>details did you have initially?

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<v Speaker 3>So, yeah, Bridget Flack was last seen on Lygon Street

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<v Speaker 3>in Carlton and she was believed to have gone for

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<v Speaker 3>a walk around Yarra Bend, though she didn't return home

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<v Speaker 3>later that night. Bridget had been trying to get help

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<v Speaker 3>for some mental health issues and had been waiting for

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<v Speaker 3>a bed at the time that she went missing, so

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<v Speaker 3>you know, her friends and family were really concerned about her.

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<v Speaker 3>I got invited to join a Facebook group called have

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<v Speaker 3>You Seen Bridget, which was, you know, something that was

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<v Speaker 3>set up sort of at a grassroots level to help

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<v Speaker 3>gather people together from the transigend diverse community and allies

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<v Speaker 3>to help conduct the search. I you know, felt a

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<v Speaker 3>really personally strong sense that, you know, we had to

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<v Speaker 3>go out and look for her. It didn't feel like

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<v Speaker 3>the police were doing enough to search for her, and

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<v Speaker 3>it felt really really important that we do everything we

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<v Speaker 3>can as a community to find her.

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<v Speaker 4>A tragic again to the search for missing Melbourne woman

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<v Speaker 4>Bridget Flag after a body was found in Bushland.

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<v Speaker 2>Last night.

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<v Speaker 3>She was ultimately found by two members of the lgbt

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<v Speaker 3>IQA plus community.

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<v Speaker 2>Sadly, Bridget's case.

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<v Speaker 3>Was not an isolated incident, and the Victorian Coroner received

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<v Speaker 3>orders to investigate the apparent suicide to five transigend diverse people.

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<v Speaker 4>The coroner also looked into the suicides of four other

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<v Speaker 4>transgender women, including Matt Byrne and Heather Perade. The inquest

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<v Speaker 4>heard several had tried in Vain to access medical and

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<v Speaker 4>mental health treatment before their deaths.

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<v Speaker 3>It was thought that it would be a good idea

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<v Speaker 3>to kind of look at them as a cluster to

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<v Speaker 3>better understand what the drivers of all of these tragic

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<v Speaker 3>deaths were, with the inquest aiming to provide new recommendations

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<v Speaker 3>to prevent further deaths.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so what did the inquest find?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so the Victorian Coroner, Ingrid Giles, did a really

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<v Speaker 3>comprehensive job of looking into the failures with the police search,

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<v Speaker 3>specifically in relation to Bridget.

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<v Speaker 4>Flat Today found Bridget's case highlighted a bigger problem that

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<v Speaker 4>there's a lack of support for the transgender community and

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<v Speaker 4>police and health officials need to do.

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<v Speaker 3>More, and there were a lot of recommendations around the

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<v Speaker 3>need for improve data collection regarding the transgenitivise community was

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<v Speaker 3>a really significant thing that the coroner pointed out. The

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<v Speaker 3>fact that there's no population level data on the number

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<v Speaker 3>of transigenitivist people nationally or in Victoria means that, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>it's incredibly hard for policymakers or health services to make

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<v Speaker 3>a case that they need funding or other resources to

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<v Speaker 3>support our community when we don't even know how many

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<v Speaker 3>of us exist, We don't know where we live. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>these these are the kind of questions that something like

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<v Speaker 3>the Australian Census could help us to understand.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So, the coroner specifically highlighted the need for better

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<v Speaker 1>data to help prevent suicides in the trans community and

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<v Speaker 1>singled out the census as one way to get that. So,

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<v Speaker 1>how is information about the trans community currently collected?

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<v Speaker 3>So back in twenty twenty one, which was the last census,

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<v Speaker 3>that was the first time where there was any kind

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<v Speaker 3>of question that talked about sort of.

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<v Speaker 2>Something to do with gender identity.

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<v Speaker 3>It was a fairly clunky question in the twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 3>one census where they asked people to select their sex

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<v Speaker 3>from three options, So there was male, female, or non binary,

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<v Speaker 3>but it didn't ask for gender identity in that census,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, for somebody like me who is a

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<v Speaker 3>trans masculine person, so for the avoidance of any sort

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<v Speaker 3>of confusion like I was assigned female at birth, but

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<v Speaker 3>I've transitioned and now live in the community and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm basically read as male all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>That left me with a real question of like what

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<v Speaker 2>do I tick?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, if I tick male, that doesn't give the

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<v Speaker 3>Australian Bureau of Statistics any information about my gender history,

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<v Speaker 3>which could be an important evidence base for the need

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<v Speaker 3>for trans healthcare. For example, in that census, almost forty

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<v Speaker 3>five thousand people tipped non binary, but the ABS found

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<v Speaker 3>that it wasn't meaningful data and so they kind of

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<v Speaker 3>arbitrarily assigned either male or female to those respondents. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>as a result of that census, there are a number

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<v Speaker 3>of complaints to the Australian Human Rights Commission, and following this,

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<v Speaker 3>the ABS issued a statement of regret where they acknowledged

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<v Speaker 3>the hurt that some people felt well completing the twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty one census, and they vowed to minimize.

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<v Speaker 2>The risk of further harm in future.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know, one of the big kind of commitments

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<v Speaker 3>they made as a result of that conciliation was committing

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<v Speaker 3>to establishing an expert Advisory Committee which included members of

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<v Speaker 3>the LGBTIQA plus community, for advice on topics some questions.

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<v Speaker 2>For the twenty twenty six census.

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<v Speaker 3>So on Sunday, the twenty fifth of August, the ABS

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<v Speaker 3>was ready to begin testing the new questions and they

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<v Speaker 3>were going to brief to the media on the Monday,

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<v Speaker 3>And it seems like the federal government, you know, had

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<v Speaker 3>a bit of a meltdown about them over that weekend

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<v Speaker 3>and announced that they would not be including questions relating

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<v Speaker 3>to LGBTIQA plus identity in the census, despite that having

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<v Speaker 3>been one of two very explicit election commitments made to

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<v Speaker 3>the LGBTIQA plus community in that twenty twenty three election.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break, why did the government pull the.

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<v Speaker 5>Pen Comments by the government in the wake of its

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<v Speaker 5>controversial census omissions are further angry the lgbtqia Plus community.

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<v Speaker 6>Labor had promised to update the census to include questions

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<v Speaker 6>on sexuality and gender diversity, but in recent days has

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<v Speaker 6>ditched the plan, saying it's trying to avoid division in

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<v Speaker 6>the community.

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<v Speaker 7>The Urban Easy government opted against adding questions on sexuality

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<v Speaker 7>to the census to avoid divisiveness, but with a wave

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<v Speaker 7>of internal dissent growing, it may have started a fight

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<v Speaker 7>of its own. Labor and Peter.

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<v Speaker 1>Sam you were watching closely as the government announced that

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<v Speaker 1>the trans and gender diverse community would not be counted

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<v Speaker 1>at the next census. What struck you about the reasons

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<v Speaker 1>that politicians gave about why.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there were various kind of explanations as to why

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<v Speaker 3>the decision had been made which were rolled out across

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<v Speaker 3>the week. So last Wednesday, on the twenty eighth of August,

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<v Speaker 3>Deputy PM Richard Miles came out and said that Labour

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<v Speaker 3>didn't want to inflict a divisive debate on the LGBCHIQA

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<v Speaker 3>plus community that could.

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<v Speaker 2>Be harmful, Which was a.

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<v Speaker 3>Very strange and kind of paternalistic argument to make, given

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<v Speaker 3>that you know, we're a community that have been explicitly

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<v Speaker 3>asking to be counted in the census and to be

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<v Speaker 3>given the right to be counted and to participate in

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<v Speaker 3>society in that way. That leads us on to Friday,

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<v Speaker 3>the thirtieth of August, which just happened to be where

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<v Speaker 3>at Purple Day, which is really lovely and your LGBCHIQ

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<v Speaker 3>Awareness Day, especially for young people.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>That day I was hosting a very kind of like

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<v Speaker 3>wholesome and lovely trans storytelling event at my local library.

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<v Speaker 5>The Prime Minister has confirmed a back down on the

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<v Speaker 5>controversy surrounding the census.

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<v Speaker 3>That day, Prime Minister Albanesi phoned into ABC Radio Melbourne

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<v Speaker 3>and talked to a journalist to say that Labour Now

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<v Speaker 3>would be supporting a single question around sexual orientation.

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<v Speaker 8>Well, we've been talking with the Australian Bureaus Statistics and

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<v Speaker 8>they're going to test for a new question, one question

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<v Speaker 8>about sexuality sexual preference.

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<v Speaker 3>But not around the more substantive package of questions that

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<v Speaker 3>the ABS was working on testing.

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<v Speaker 8>Sorry Prime Minister too, in there will be a sexuality preference,

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<v Speaker 8>sexuality or sexual preference question in the senses. Yes, their

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<v Speaker 8>will as long as the testing goes okay and a

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<v Speaker 8>question can be developed in a way that is sensitive

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<v Speaker 8>and that gets the information that is required and the

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<v Speaker 8>ABS will be there.

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<v Speaker 3>So there was a confusing response from the Prime Minister

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<v Speaker 3>and it left us feeling quite unclear with transigenitiverse people

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<v Speaker 3>and non binary people and intersex people would have their

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<v Speaker 3>correct information recorded or not. It seemed like maybe Anthi

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<v Speaker 3>Albinsi was trying to kind of carve off sexual orientation

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<v Speaker 3>from the perhaps more thorny debate around gender identity. But

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<v Speaker 3>you know, for me, as a trans person, it felt

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<v Speaker 3>like an even more targeted insult directed at us in

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<v Speaker 3>our community by saying, Okay, we'll accept that we can

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<v Speaker 3>ask about sexual orientation, but we don't want to ask

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<v Speaker 3>anything too weird or whatever, by asking about, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>people's experience as transgender people in this country.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think so a lot of people when

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<v Speaker 1>they look at this census debate, they see some pretty

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<v Speaker 1>messy politics. But when you look at it, especially in

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<v Speaker 1>the context of the findings from this inquest, what is

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<v Speaker 1>at stake here Sam, beyond the idea of being counted?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, you know the reason that the census is important, right,

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<v Speaker 3>is because, well, having a precise measurement of our community

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<v Speaker 3>would you know, help us understand what services we need

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<v Speaker 3>and where they should be, you know, particularly whether they

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<v Speaker 3>should be in inner cities or regional of rural Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>It would help people be able to actually kind of

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<v Speaker 3>target like mental health campaigns on different parts of the community.

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<v Speaker 3>If we don't know where you know, transigenitiverse people live,

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<v Speaker 3>or what they do or who they're living with, it's

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<v Speaker 3>pretty difficult for organizations who do really important kind of

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<v Speaker 3>mental health support work like Switchboard and q life. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>they need an evidence base to be able to make

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<v Speaker 3>an argument to government that they need financial support to

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<v Speaker 3>meet our mental health and emotional health needs. And without

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<v Speaker 3>that data, you know, we're just relying on kind of

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<v Speaker 3>anecdotal information. And we know anecdotally that the lgbt IQA

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<v Speaker 3>plus community and the transigenditiverse community in particular, is really struggling.

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<v Speaker 3>Like we're a community that is under employed, is more

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<v Speaker 3>likely to be homeless, is more likely to have severed

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<v Speaker 3>tops with family, or have really sort of complex relationships

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<v Speaker 3>with our family of origin. Like we're generally not going

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<v Speaker 3>super well as a community, you know, and we really

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<v Speaker 3>need support and we want that support from our government.

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<v Speaker 3>It's incredibly ironic that this long awaited coroners' findings came

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<v Speaker 3>out explicitly discussing the need for better population level data.

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<v Speaker 3>You know that that came out at the same time

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<v Speaker 3>as the Albanesi government was saying that they didn't.

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<v Speaker 2>Want to ask these questions.

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<v Speaker 3>So yeah, it's been an absolutely wild week and seems

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<v Speaker 3>like Labor has really created a massive owned goal for

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<v Speaker 3>itself by creating a national debate around transgender, diverse and

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<v Speaker 3>intersex rights, which is you know, the very thing that

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<v Speaker 3>they said they wanted to avoid.

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<v Speaker 2>This issue is not going to go away.

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<v Speaker 3>This is going to become a real pressure point for

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<v Speaker 3>the Albanesi government if they don't change their.

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<v Speaker 2>Perspective on this.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Sam, thank you so much for talking to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, absolute pleasure. Thanks.

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<v Speaker 1>The support organizations mentioned today were q Life, which you

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<v Speaker 1>can call from three pm to midnight on one eight

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<v Speaker 1>hundred one eight four five two seven, or Switchboard, which

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<v Speaker 1>provides peer support for the Victorian LGBTIQA plus community. Also

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<v Speaker 1>in the news today, Senator Linda Reynolds harassed Britney Higgins

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<v Speaker 1>by engaging with the lawyer representing miss Higgins rapist, a

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<v Speaker 1>court has heard in closing submissions in Senator reynolds defamation case.

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<v Speaker 1>Lawyer Rachel Young sc also pointed to the Senator's leaking

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<v Speaker 1>of information to the Australian columnist Janet Albertson as evidence

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<v Speaker 1>of the senator's harassment of Miss Higgins. But despite the

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<v Speaker 1>alleged harassment, Miss Young said Britney Higgins had a profound

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<v Speaker 1>and lasting impact on the way in which gendered violence

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<v Speaker 1>and safety issues are addressed in Australian workplaces. And a

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<v Speaker 1>woman has been hospitalized after being bitten by a tiger

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<v Speaker 1>at Dreamworld. The forty seven year old animal handler was

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<v Speaker 1>taken to Gold Coast University Hospital after serious lacerations and

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<v Speaker 1>puncture wounds to her arm and shoulder. Dreamworld hosts tiger

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<v Speaker 1>presentations where guests are invited to be mesmerized by tigers

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<v Speaker 1>as they glide underwater. Dreamworld has said that attacks are

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<v Speaker 1>rare and their focus now is supporting the woman who

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<v Speaker 1>was attacked. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am THEA

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<v Speaker 1>tomorrow