1 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:07,110 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview, I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,410 --> 00:00:10,170 Sean Aylmer: We've talked a lot about market volatility and the impact 3 00:00:10,170 --> 00:00:13,289 Sean Aylmer: on investors. Today I wanted to hear from somebody who 4 00:00:13,289 --> 00:00:17,130 Sean Aylmer: has a slightly different perspective, overseeing the investment portfolios of 5 00:00:17,130 --> 00:00:20,489 Sean Aylmer: a range of different not- for- profit groups from schools 6 00:00:20,489 --> 00:00:23,939 Sean Aylmer: to charities. Remember this is general information only, you should get 7 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:27,930 Sean Aylmer: professional advice before making any investment decisions. Russell Investments is 8 00:00:27,930 --> 00:00:31,920 Sean Aylmer: a global asset manager with more than 435 billion US 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,070 Sean Aylmer: dollars in assets under management and 1. 7 trillion US 10 00:00:35,070 --> 00:00:39,839 Sean Aylmer: dollars in assets under advice. Daniel Greyling is the Director Institutional 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,709 Sean Aylmer: at Russell Investments and runs the company's outsourced chief investment 12 00:00:43,740 --> 00:00:47,010 Sean Aylmer: officer operation in Australia. Daniel, welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,510 Daniel Greyling: Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me. 14 00:00:48,930 --> 00:00:53,159 Sean Aylmer: I love the name Russell's Outsource Chief Investment Officer Operation. 15 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,290 Sean Aylmer: I think I know what it does, but can you tell me? 16 00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:59,340 Daniel Greyling: Yeah, sure. Sounds quite grandiose, doesn't it? But it sort 17 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:03,270 Daniel Greyling: of taken in its literal sense, so it's a outsourced 18 00:01:03,270 --> 00:01:08,550 Daniel Greyling: chief investment officer function. So effectively organizations, they can be not- for- 19 00:01:08,550 --> 00:01:13,050 Daniel Greyling: profit organizations, it could be defined benefit schemes, could be 20 00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:17,759 Daniel Greyling: insurance companies, anybody that's got a sizable investment portfolio but 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,440 Daniel Greyling: doesn't have the internal expertise to run that portfolio. They 22 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:26,310 Daniel Greyling: may look at outsourcing that function to a global organization 23 00:01:26,550 --> 00:01:29,610 Daniel Greyling: that's got the scale and experience in managing investments. 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,190 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And so it's not just for profit, as you 25 00:01:32,190 --> 00:01:35,160 Sean Aylmer: mentioned, it's kind of across a range of sectors. 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,340 Daniel Greyling: That's right. Yeah. So globally, we work with almost all 27 00:01:38,340 --> 00:01:42,569 Daniel Greyling: types of institutional investors. Locally it is predominantly not- for- 28 00:01:42,569 --> 00:01:46,920 Daniel Greyling: profit investors as well as some wholesale advisory type clients. 29 00:01:47,250 --> 00:01:49,770 Daniel Greyling: But that said, I mean not for profit as you would 30 00:01:49,770 --> 00:01:53,010 Daniel Greyling: know, Sean in itself is quite a broad sector and 31 00:01:53,010 --> 00:01:55,500 Daniel Greyling: that's what I actually love about working in the sector 32 00:01:55,500 --> 00:02:00,450 Daniel Greyling: is it covers an absolute plethora of different types of organizations. 33 00:02:00,810 --> 00:02:02,700 Sean Aylmer: How big is the sector? Is there some sort of 34 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:03,991 Sean Aylmer: number on it? 35 00:02:03,991 --> 00:02:05,790 Daniel Greyling: Yeah. It depends how you want to quantify it. I mean, 36 00:02:05,790 --> 00:02:10,650 Daniel Greyling: in 2020, the not- for- profit sector generated around $ 180 37 00:02:10,650 --> 00:02:12,179 Daniel Greyling: billion in revenue. 38 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:12,450 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,620 Daniel Greyling: They account for 10% of the Australian workforce. So it's 40 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:20,369 Daniel Greyling: far from just the local sports or social club, which 41 00:02:20,790 --> 00:02:23,309 Daniel Greyling: of course they're not- for- profit, but they are also 42 00:02:23,310 --> 00:02:28,980 Daniel Greyling: involved in many other areas like human rights, education, age 43 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:33,720 Daniel Greyling: care, religious organizations. So it is quite sparse. Yeah. 44 00:02:33,750 --> 00:02:37,139 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So when you are doing work as a chief 45 00:02:37,139 --> 00:02:41,579 Sean Aylmer: investment officer for a not- for- profit is the starting 46 00:02:41,580 --> 00:02:44,910 Sean Aylmer: point any different to for- profit organizations? 47 00:02:45,450 --> 00:02:49,019 Daniel Greyling: The starting point probably isn't a great deal different. The 48 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:52,350 Daniel Greyling: difference with not- for- profit organizations is quite often they've 49 00:02:52,350 --> 00:02:57,030 Daniel Greyling: got quite a unique set of investment objectives. And having 50 00:02:57,030 --> 00:03:00,600 Daniel Greyling: an understanding of the sector and what those objectives are 51 00:03:01,169 --> 00:03:03,570 Daniel Greyling: is really, really helpful. So let me give you an 52 00:03:03,570 --> 00:03:07,230 Daniel Greyling: example, a not- for- profit organization they may have a 53 00:03:07,350 --> 00:03:11,550 Daniel Greyling: corpus or an endowment portfolio, a large chunk of money 54 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:16,410 Daniel Greyling: that they've has either been bequeathed to them or given 55 00:03:16,410 --> 00:03:20,580 Daniel Greyling: to them through government grants. They will typically invest that 56 00:03:20,580 --> 00:03:25,380 Daniel Greyling: corpus, earning income and using that income to perpetuate the 57 00:03:25,380 --> 00:03:28,889 Daniel Greyling: mission of that organization. And quite often, a not- for- 58 00:03:28,889 --> 00:03:33,690 Daniel Greyling: profit investor, unlike a for- profit investor, their mission will 59 00:03:33,690 --> 00:03:38,760 Daniel Greyling: be to deliver a service or an obligation to the society 60 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,510 Daniel Greyling: in which they operate into perpetuity. So they've got very, 61 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:46,200 Daniel Greyling: very long- term investment horizons. I guess one of the 62 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,780 Daniel Greyling: other key characteristics with a not- for- profit investor, and 63 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:51,630 Daniel Greyling: this one is also really important, is their tax status. 64 00:03:51,630 --> 00:03:54,930 Daniel Greyling: So a not- for- profit investor is a zero- tax paying 65 00:03:54,930 --> 00:03:58,440 Daniel Greyling: entity. And that has ramifications on how they invest. 66 00:03:59,250 --> 00:04:04,320 Sean Aylmer: Do they tend to favor ESG or favor the societal, the 67 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,200 Sean Aylmer: S part of ESG? I mean, is that too broad 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,339 Sean Aylmer: a brush to say? 69 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,270 Daniel Greyling: No, it's a great question. ESG is a broad topic 70 00:04:12,270 --> 00:04:16,919 Daniel Greyling: in and itself. I think it's easier when not- for- profit 71 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,490 Daniel Greyling: investors, unlike other types of investors, quite often they will 72 00:04:20,490 --> 00:04:25,529 Daniel Greyling: have very specific missions. Missions to either improve the society 73 00:04:25,529 --> 00:04:30,000 Daniel Greyling: in which they live, improve human rights, or reduce homelessness, 74 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,620 Daniel Greyling: or whatever the cause may be. 75 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:31,621 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 76 00:04:31,621 --> 00:04:35,880 Daniel Greyling: ESG is an interesting area because it's evolved a lot over 77 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,330 Daniel Greyling: the past couple of years and it's quite interesting that 78 00:04:39,330 --> 00:04:42,240 Daniel Greyling: a lot of not- for- profit investors may actually be 79 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,100 Daniel Greyling: investing in businesses or companies through their investment portfolio that's 80 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:50,549 Daniel Greyling: not actually aligned with what their overall mission is. For 81 00:04:50,550 --> 00:04:55,469 Daniel Greyling: example, investing in casinos or online gambling companies, which do 82 00:04:55,470 --> 00:05:00,750 Daniel Greyling: actually make up your broad- based market indexes. So recently 83 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,500 Daniel Greyling: the catalyst has sort of been organizations like Russell have 84 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:09,060 Daniel Greyling: developed ways to build more bespoke investment portfolios for those not- for- 85 00:05:09,060 --> 00:05:13,320 Daniel Greyling: profit investors to actually allow them to reflect the values 86 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,410 Daniel Greyling: of their organization in their investment portfolio. 87 00:05:16,740 --> 00:05:17,100 Sean Aylmer: Right. 88 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,060 Daniel Greyling: And without laboring the point, one thing I would say 89 00:05:21,060 --> 00:05:24,900 Daniel Greyling: is that the more progressive not- for- profit organizations are 90 00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:28,500 Daniel Greyling: actually taking that even one step further. They're actually using 91 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,750 Daniel Greyling: their corpus or their endowment to perpetuate their mission. So 92 00:05:33,750 --> 00:05:38,159 Daniel Greyling: an example of that would be impact investing. So investing 93 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,240 Daniel Greyling: in local housing that's still going to generate a return, 94 00:05:42,690 --> 00:05:45,180 Daniel Greyling: but also has positive societal benefits. 95 00:05:45,930 --> 00:05:48,089 Sean Aylmer: I remember reading a great story about the Sisters of 96 00:05:48,089 --> 00:05:51,030 Sean Aylmer: Mercy, which is a convent, or a group of nuns, 97 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,460 Sean Aylmer: and they had a new investment manager who said, " Why 98 00:05:53,460 --> 00:05:55,919 Sean Aylmer: are we investing in big business, we should be investing 99 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,589 Sean Aylmer: in homelessness, et cetera." And at least at the time 100 00:05:58,589 --> 00:05:59,700 Sean Aylmer: I read it, which was a couple of years ago, 101 00:05:59,700 --> 00:06:01,529 Sean Aylmer: they had done incredibly well. I'm not sure where they're 102 00:06:01,529 --> 00:06:04,560 Sean Aylmer: up to now, but it's that sort of example where they're 103 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,810 Sean Aylmer: putting their money exactly where their belief is. 104 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:10,200 Daniel Greyling: Exactly. And it's such a nice story. I mean, I've 105 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,690 Daniel Greyling: been working in the industry for about 15 years and it's 106 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:15,540 Daniel Greyling: what I really like working about working with not- for- 107 00:06:15,540 --> 00:06:21,089 Daniel Greyling: profit organizations is the mission is good. It feels good 108 00:06:21,089 --> 00:06:23,849 Daniel Greyling: to help them perpetuate the mission. I'm yet to find 109 00:06:23,850 --> 00:06:26,790 Daniel Greyling: someone in the industry that I don't like working with. 110 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:30,599 Daniel Greyling: It draws a special kind of people. So yeah, it's 111 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:31,890 Daniel Greyling: nice. And that's a good example. 112 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,260 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Daniel will be back in a minute. 113 00:06:39,870 --> 00:06:43,380 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Daniel Greyling, Director Institutional at 114 00:06:43,380 --> 00:06:47,970 Sean Aylmer: Russell Investments. Okay. What about the risk of, I mean 115 00:06:47,970 --> 00:06:50,070 Sean Aylmer: we talk about investing a lot on Fear and Greed 116 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,390 Sean Aylmer: and we always talk about diversification. What we're talking about 117 00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:58,289 Sean Aylmer: here though has the potential to reduce diversification in as much 118 00:06:58,290 --> 00:07:01,289 Sean Aylmer: as if you are deciding that you have a corpus and you want 119 00:07:01,290 --> 00:07:04,800 Sean Aylmer: to put that amount of money towards something which your 120 00:07:05,190 --> 00:07:09,180 Sean Aylmer: charity stands for, you are then wiping out lots of 121 00:07:09,180 --> 00:07:10,620 Sean Aylmer: other investment options. 122 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:15,630 Daniel Greyling: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I guess the first thing is with diversification, the 123 00:07:15,630 --> 00:07:18,270 Daniel Greyling: only free lunch if you like. One of the things 124 00:07:18,270 --> 00:07:20,550 Daniel Greyling: that we do when we work with our clients is make 125 00:07:20,550 --> 00:07:24,060 Daniel Greyling: sure that we understand their investment objectives and also put 126 00:07:24,060 --> 00:07:27,180 Daniel Greyling: together a portfolio that is very well diversified, that is 127 00:07:27,180 --> 00:07:31,920 Daniel Greyling: absolutely paramount in making sure that the corpus is going 128 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,970 Daniel Greyling: to carry on into perpetuity and that not- for- profit 129 00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:38,670 Daniel Greyling: organization or that company is going to be able to 130 00:07:38,670 --> 00:07:42,540 Daniel Greyling: deliver on its obligations. You can't have a not- for- 131 00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:46,710 Daniel Greyling: profit organization turn around one year and say, " Oops, investments 132 00:07:46,710 --> 00:07:49,080 Daniel Greyling: didn't do so well, unfortunately, we're not going to be 133 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,370 Daniel Greyling: able to fund this housing shelter." Or whatever the example 134 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:57,540 Daniel Greyling: may be. So diversification, super important when we talk about 135 00:07:57,540 --> 00:08:01,650 Daniel Greyling: impact investing certainly wouldn't be a all or nothing kind 136 00:08:01,650 --> 00:08:04,350 Daniel Greyling: of play. We would sit down with the organization, we 137 00:08:04,350 --> 00:08:08,250 Daniel Greyling: would look at a strategic asset allocation, and actually use 138 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:13,560 Daniel Greyling: that as a diversifier to a traditional portfolio. And so 139 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,930 Daniel Greyling: flipping that around, a lot of organizations that don't seek 140 00:08:18,930 --> 00:08:22,380 Daniel Greyling: the help of a professional investment partner, they may go 141 00:08:22,380 --> 00:08:27,660 Daniel Greyling: with a typical sort of barbell approach, 70% equities, 30% 142 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:30,840 Daniel Greyling: bonds. But as you would know to the 12 months 143 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:34,469 Daniel Greyling: to the end of June 2022, both of those asset 144 00:08:34,470 --> 00:08:38,400 Daniel Greyling: classes returned almost negative 10%. So not a lot of 145 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,240 Daniel Greyling: diversification. Whereas some of these unlisted property ventures like the 146 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,179 Daniel Greyling: one you referenced with the Sisters of Mercy, that actually 147 00:08:45,179 --> 00:08:47,430 Daniel Greyling: would've been a great diversifier in that regard. 148 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,660 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, okay. What about shareholder advocacy? We hear lots about 149 00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:57,270 Sean Aylmer: fund managers becoming advocates for change, particularly in the ESG space. 150 00:08:57,630 --> 00:09:00,300 Sean Aylmer: Is there a sense that in the not- for- profit 151 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:04,650 Sean Aylmer: space they are more or less involved in shareholder advocacy? Because 152 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:06,599 Sean Aylmer: I can see an argument for both sides to be honest. 153 00:09:07,140 --> 00:09:10,199 Daniel Greyling: Yeah, absolutely. That's actually a great question. I haven't had 154 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,580 Daniel Greyling: that question framed in that way. I think, generally speaking, 155 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:17,370 Daniel Greyling: one of the things that we notice from an ESG 156 00:09:17,370 --> 00:09:22,770 Daniel Greyling: perspective is that institutional investors, the school of thought is 157 00:09:22,770 --> 00:09:27,179 Daniel Greyling: shifting a little bit away from divestment and more toward 158 00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:33,209 Daniel Greyling: active engagement or active ownership to effectively influence the behavior 159 00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:36,780 Daniel Greyling: of the company as opposed to just divesting from it. 160 00:09:36,780 --> 00:09:40,560 Daniel Greyling: And there is an example with AGL and Cannon- Brookes 161 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,170 Daniel Greyling: holding a stake in that company and not allowing that 162 00:09:43,170 --> 00:09:46,620 Daniel Greyling: demerger is a really classic example of that playing out. 163 00:09:46,860 --> 00:09:49,380 Daniel Greyling: I think a lot of that's been driven by net 164 00:09:49,380 --> 00:09:53,250 Daniel Greyling: zero, which is a very prominent topic within ESG. And 165 00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:56,219 Daniel Greyling: certainly when you look at something like net zero, if 166 00:09:56,220 --> 00:09:59,069 Daniel Greyling: you're going to get to net zero by 2050, that's 167 00:09:59,070 --> 00:10:03,150 Daniel Greyling: going to take everyone lifting as opposed to just people 168 00:10:03,150 --> 00:10:06,450 Daniel Greyling: deciding to divest. Not saying that's not appropriate in some 169 00:10:06,450 --> 00:10:10,319 Daniel Greyling: circumstances, but the example still sort of stands. You get 170 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,800 Daniel Greyling: other sectors like tobacco and gambling where it is a 171 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,530 Daniel Greyling: little bit more black and white if you like. Those 172 00:10:16,530 --> 00:10:20,910 Daniel Greyling: companies have a very clear objective and that either is 173 00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:23,099 Daniel Greyling: in line or not in line with your values. It's 174 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,329 Daniel Greyling: unlikely that a tobacco company is going to turn around in 175 00:10:27,330 --> 00:10:30,240 Daniel Greyling: five or 10 years off the back of active ownership 176 00:10:30,330 --> 00:10:35,069 Daniel Greyling: of its shareholders and do something completely different. So in 177 00:10:35,070 --> 00:10:39,330 Daniel Greyling: that regard, divestment may be an appropriate strategy. But with not- for- 178 00:10:39,330 --> 00:10:45,030 Daniel Greyling: profit investors, it varies, some foundations and endowments and those 179 00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:50,700 Daniel Greyling: types of investors are more inclined to be involved in 180 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:54,630 Daniel Greyling: active ownership. But back to the tobacco example, there are 181 00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:58,170 Daniel Greyling: some other not- for- profits, think about some types of 182 00:10:58,170 --> 00:11:03,120 Daniel Greyling: religious organizations where certain activities of companies is just not 183 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,450 Daniel Greyling: aligned with their beliefs. And it's really important as an 184 00:11:06,570 --> 00:11:10,349 Daniel Greyling: investment advisor to be able to deal with both of 185 00:11:10,350 --> 00:11:11,130 Daniel Greyling: those scenarios. 186 00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:14,730 Sean Aylmer: Daniel, one final question. When you are thinking about investing 187 00:11:14,730 --> 00:11:18,540 Sean Aylmer: money for not- for- profits, do you feel more pressure? 188 00:11:19,470 --> 00:11:21,720 Sean Aylmer: I mean, I've given money to lots of not- for- 189 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,650 Sean Aylmer: profits and that's my 10 bucks you are taking and investing. Now, it's 190 00:11:26,070 --> 00:11:28,620 Sean Aylmer: exactly the same, it's my superannuation money or so I 191 00:11:28,620 --> 00:11:31,110 Sean Aylmer: kind of do get that, but is there some sort 192 00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:36,120 Sean Aylmer: of sense that often it's people who are giving away 193 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,040 Sean Aylmer: their own money, they're 10 bucks or they're 20 bucks 194 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,050 Sean Aylmer: that you're investing, so there's an extra pressure? 195 00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:45,030 Daniel Greyling: Yeah. It's an interesting point. I mean, I think that's 196 00:11:45,030 --> 00:11:46,890 Daniel Greyling: one of the things that I really like about working 197 00:11:46,890 --> 00:11:49,740 Daniel Greyling: in financial services and in my role is being able 198 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:53,640 Daniel Greyling: to help and improve the financial outcomes of the clients 199 00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:57,720 Daniel Greyling: and partners that we work with. Certainly, we apply the 200 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,040 Daniel Greyling: same level of rigor regardless of the type of organization. But 201 00:12:02,910 --> 00:12:05,429 Daniel Greyling: I do really like working with the not- for- profit sector, 202 00:12:05,429 --> 00:12:09,059 Daniel Greyling: and to perhaps frame it a different way, it makes 203 00:12:09,059 --> 00:12:12,750 Daniel Greyling: me really proud to be contributing positively to some of 204 00:12:12,750 --> 00:12:15,330 Daniel Greyling: the causes and missions of the organizations we work with. 205 00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:18,690 Daniel Greyling: And also just the variety of different organizations that you 206 00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:22,920 Daniel Greyling: do get to work with is quite nice. Helping them 207 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:28,590 Daniel Greyling: implement a strong governance process and allowing them to benefit 208 00:12:28,590 --> 00:12:31,530 Daniel Greyling: from the combined scale of an organization like Russell Investments, 209 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,890 Daniel Greyling: it saves them dollars on their bottom line, which can 210 00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:38,040 Daniel Greyling: then be put back into their mission and that does 211 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,000 Daniel Greyling: really make me proud. 212 00:12:39,450 --> 00:12:41,280 Sean Aylmer: Daniel, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 213 00:12:41,610 --> 00:12:42,780 Daniel Greyling: Thanks, Sean. It's been a pleasure. 214 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,490 Sean Aylmer: That was Daniel Greyling, Director Institutional at Russell Investments. This 215 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:50,400 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Remember this information 216 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,920 Sean Aylmer: is general in nature and you should seek professional advice 217 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,040 Sean Aylmer: before making any investment decisions. Join us every morning for 218 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,590 Sean Aylmer: the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular 219 00:12:58,590 --> 00:13:01,380 Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.