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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Just for Girls.

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Speaker 1: You're probably thinking right now, Sam and Izzy is sounding

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Speaker 1: a little bit different. Well that's because it's producer Blake

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Speaker 1: just quickly jumping on while Sam and Izzi are still

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Speaker 1: enjoying their trip in the US and winding down from Coachella.

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Speaker 1: The girls are so excited to get back behind Mike

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Speaker 1: and give you all the updates, let you know everything

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Speaker 1: you've missed, update you on that trip. I'm excited for

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Speaker 1: the updates, so been like super busy, So I honestly

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Speaker 1: have a lot of catching up to do as well.

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Speaker 1: But until then, we're just releasing a few best of episodes.

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Speaker 1: This one I know you'll love. So it was actually

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Speaker 1: with the human lie Detector, Steve van Apern And there's

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Speaker 1: a really funny backstory here. So when I first started

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Speaker 1: the podcast with the girls, first thing they said to

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Speaker 1: me they were like, we want to do an episode

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Speaker 1: where we do a lie detector. So I tried my

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Speaker 1: little heart out to get my hands on a lie

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Speaker 1: detector and not everyone seems to have it in their

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Speaker 1: back pocket, which is kind of annoying. So I made

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Speaker 1: a few phone calls and ended up on the phone

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Speaker 1: to a guy called Steve van Apern and he told

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Speaker 1: me his back, his work he used to do across

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Speaker 1: matter cases and really big police cases, and how he's

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Speaker 1: referred to as the human lie Detector. Pass it on

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Speaker 1: to the girls and we're like, oh my god, we

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Speaker 1: need to make this episode happen. And we did it,

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Speaker 1: and it was honestly one of our favorite episodes we've

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Speaker 1: ever recorded. So we thought we'll take a trip down

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Speaker 1: memory lane, put this back in your ear drums, and

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Speaker 1: we cannot wait to see you in a few weeks

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Speaker 1: when the girls are back to give you all the updates. Enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Hi, guys, guys, welcome back to Just for Girls. We

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Speaker 2: have a very different episode this week, a.

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Speaker 3: Very very exciting one. So we have Steve joining us

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Speaker 3: today on this episode and he is known as the

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Speaker 3: human lie Detector.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Steve, Thank you, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: We're so excited to have you. So Steve obviously does

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Speaker 2: a lot of work in like crime and all that stuff,

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Speaker 2: but today we're just more here to hear about you know,

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Speaker 2: how can you tell if someone's lying, if a partner's

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Speaker 2: lying all that? Jazz I want to preface I've lost

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Speaker 2: my voice. I know it's going to be hard on

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Speaker 2: the years, guys, so I'll let Sam take the reins.

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Speaker 3: So, as Asy mentioned, you work on a lot of

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Speaker 3: homicide cases and some major crime cases in Australia.

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Speaker 4: How did you get.

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Speaker 3: Yourself into that industry and tell us a little bit

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Speaker 3: more about that and what you do for the work.

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Speaker 5: Well, I joined South Australia Police and then Victoria Police

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Speaker 5: and I was always interested in psychological profiling, what made

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Speaker 5: serial killers and serial sex offenders tick. So I was

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Speaker 5: fortunate enough to go to the FBI. Back in those days,

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Speaker 5: it was called the Behavioral Sciences Unit. But the more

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Speaker 5: I learned about profiling, the more interested I'm becoming cognitive

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Speaker 5: and behavioral interviewing. I want to know why some of

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Speaker 5: the detectives I worked with were not very good at

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Speaker 5: spotting a lie or reading body language. So while I

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Speaker 5: was over there, they said, look, do you use polygraph

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Speaker 5: testing in your police department? And back then we didn't,

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Speaker 5: And they said, we use it for frauds, extortions, homicide,

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Speaker 5: sexual offenses. Why don't you train up with us and

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Speaker 5: then take the technology back. So that's exactly what I did.

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Speaker 5: But after I come back, I thought, wouldn't it be

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Speaker 5: great to have the skill sets to work out when

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Speaker 5: people were lying to by analyzing not just what they're doing,

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Speaker 5: but also what they're saying and how they're saying it.

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Speaker 5: And then all of a sudden, I started getting a

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Speaker 5: lot of media attention, and as you said, they media

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Speaker 5: dubbed me the human light Attective. And this is why

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Speaker 5: I have no friends.

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Speaker 2: It's a pretty cool name. Love that I'm nervous.

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Speaker 1: To be honest.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's funny because as you're sitting there, I'm actually baselining,

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Speaker 5: benchmarking your behaviors at the moment. And there'll be a

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Speaker 5: reason why, which we'll go into a little bit later.

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Speaker 5: But while I was doing the training, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 5: I started getting all these requests. One of them was

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Speaker 5: to write a book, which I did, and then I

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Speaker 5: started training intelligence agencies, homicide detectives, police departments and so on.

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Speaker 5: And I guess, at the end of the day, we

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Speaker 5: all want to know what happens when people lie, but

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Speaker 5: more importantly, how to pick out when somebody is lying.

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Speaker 5: And research on this is very clear. In fact, it's

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Speaker 5: very difficult for the average person to lie with believability

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Speaker 5: and credibility. However, the accuracy in picking out when somebody

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Speaker 5: is lying is between forty eight and fifty one percent

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Speaker 5: of the time that you're accurate. Why because we're often

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Speaker 5: influenced by people. We want to believe that the person

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Speaker 5: is telling us the truth, and we don't always pick

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Speaker 5: up the telltale signs of what people do when they're lying. See.

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Speaker 5: I may be able to think of a lie, but

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Speaker 5: can I effectively communicate that lie and have you believe

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Speaker 5: what I say? And ironically, people often won't lie to you.

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Speaker 5: They'll just edit the information they supply you with, so

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Speaker 5: they'll be evasive or missive, dismissive, sidestep the issue, not

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Speaker 5: answer the question. But I honestly think there's no such

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Speaker 5: thing as a good liar because there will always be

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Speaker 5: some tells, some sea beach, some leakage. The problem is

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Speaker 5: is we miss those signs and those votal cues. When

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Speaker 5: I train with the FBI, they had a course called

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Speaker 5: Adaptive Interviewing, and they teach their agents to benchmark or baseline,

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Speaker 5: then look for deviations from that normative behavior. If you

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Speaker 5: haven't done that, how on earth are you going to

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Speaker 5: see when somebody's lying to.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So how would you then define lying? Are there

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Speaker 3: different types of lying? As you said just before that

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Speaker 3: some people may just double on the truth and stuff

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Speaker 3: like that. Do you think they're consciously lying on that

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Speaker 3: they're not even conscious that they're doing it?

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Speaker 4: Like, what are the types of lying?

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Speaker 5: Okay? So the first part of the question, what is

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Speaker 5: a lie? A lie is where you willfully mislead somebody

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Speaker 5: knowing that what you're saying is factually incorrect, and that's

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Speaker 5: a deliberate behavior. Okay. And what are the things that

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Speaker 5: people lie about? Oh? Jeez, we lie about how we feel.

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Speaker 5: We lie about to get ahead, We lie to impress

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Speaker 5: the potential partner or mate. We lie to make ourselves

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Speaker 5: look better. We lie for a myriad of reasons. And

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Speaker 5: it's part of a social concept that if and I

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Speaker 5: remember working on particular case and related to a child's

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Speaker 5: sexual abuse case, and the child was quite young, and

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Speaker 5: it was interesting because the psychologist said that child up

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Speaker 5: to a certain age, if you say dress your daughter

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Speaker 5: as a ballerine or a fairy, she may honestly believe

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Speaker 5: that she's a fairy. Is that a lie until such

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Speaker 5: time that the person knows that what they're doing is

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Speaker 5: a lie. Then that's a totally different ballgame. So what

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Speaker 5: we need to do is just analyze what people say

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Speaker 5: and how they say it. Nine times out of ten

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Speaker 5: people say, oh, you know, he looked away, he must

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Speaker 5: be lying. Well, it's much more to it. We need

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Speaker 5: to look at verbal, non verbal and para paralinguistics, which

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Speaker 5: we can talk about.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I want to hear right, I've already We've been

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Speaker 2: doing this for like what five minutes, and I'm already like,

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Speaker 2: this is my favorite episode I haven't done on s.

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Speaker 5: Let me give you a quick example. Start with you.

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Speaker 5: What was the very first job you had?

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Speaker 4: For a very first job, I worked at a grocery store.

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Speaker 5: Do you remember when that was twenty.

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Speaker 4: Seventeen?

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Speaker 5: Okay? And what was the name of your boss?

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Speaker 4: Jordan? Okay and Brendan.

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Speaker 5: Now what happened there is four times you looked away

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Speaker 5: when you were recalling historical events. Okay. Now, if you're thinking,

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Speaker 5: how is that important, Well, that's very important to someone

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Speaker 5: like me because I'm benchmarking your behavior. So I know

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Speaker 5: most of the time when you're processing information and recalling

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Speaker 5: a historical event, you look sometimes you're left, sometimes right,

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Speaker 5: predominantly More to your right. Now, if you're likely to

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Speaker 5: fabricate or create or embellish a false memory, you're then

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Speaker 5: going to access the creative side of your brain. So

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Speaker 5: I just prove that a loss of eye contact is

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Speaker 5: not on its own indicative deception, but more so of

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Speaker 5: neological recall. Right, So what I teach people is to

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Speaker 5: look for groups and clusters of behaviors. And in your case,

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Speaker 5: you engage in a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea what you're going to say.

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Speaker 5: Either, you engage in a lot of preming and grooming gestures.

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Speaker 5: There's a big difference. Okay, so I'm not really good

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Speaker 5: at this because I'm not a girl. But let's say

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Speaker 5: I'm a girl and I see a guy and I

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Speaker 5: like this guy. Often, when a girl is interested in

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Speaker 5: a guy, she will bombard him with behavioral cues to

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Speaker 5: signify that interest. But the problem is men have no idea.

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Speaker 5: Men don't know what the nonverbal cues and signs are.

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Speaker 5: So something like, if I was a girl interested, there'll

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Speaker 5: be things like good eye contact, touching hair, good frontal alignments.

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Speaker 2: I think I would just consider myself a figita.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what you are?

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Speaker 5: A figitor? But here's the difference. Right, So when you talk,

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Speaker 5: you're quite animated, whereas you're the opposite. So when you talk,

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Speaker 5: that's fine, But if you're likely to get into a lie,

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Speaker 5: usually what we'll see is nonverbal cues such as deliberate blocking, masking,

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Speaker 5: and concealment behaviors. I call them lockdowns. And that's different

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Speaker 5: from what you do when you're normally call talking. So

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Speaker 5: when a person lies, it creates what we call cognitive load,

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Speaker 5: and it takes a lot of processing. If I'm going

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Speaker 5: to tell you or try to convince you of something

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Speaker 5: that I'm saying is true and I know it's not,

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Speaker 5: takes a lot of brain power. In fact, under MRI scanning,

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Speaker 5: when we lie, our brain lights up like a Christmas tree.

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Speaker 5: It is very difficult for the average person to lie

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Speaker 5: and to like convincingly.

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Speaker 4: Right you sorry?

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Speaker 2: Quick? Do you think because you've.

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Speaker 5: Started it's not a gesture That was actually a typical

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Speaker 5: grooming not a printing gesture like hair out of the eyes,

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Speaker 5: that type of thing. You did that a lot, but

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Speaker 5: also playing with jewelry. Now what I'm doing is I'm

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Speaker 5: drawing your attention to it. I say this never if

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Speaker 5: you go to date or if you're meeting people. Never

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Speaker 5: ever draw a person's attention to their body language.

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Speaker 4: Why do you think that is, because then they'll stop

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Speaker 4: doing it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they're going to moderate, regulate and control it. So

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Speaker 5: what I teach people is to use that in your arsenal,

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Speaker 5: together with good questioning, because sooner or later the real

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Speaker 5: personality of somebody will show if you ask the right questions.

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Speaker 2: I need you to be sitting next to me on

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Speaker 2: my dates.

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Speaker 3: So are there certain as you just said you described

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Speaker 3: eazy and I quite separately, are there personality traits that

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Speaker 3: make someone more prone to lying?

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Speaker 5: It depends. I deal with a lot of pedophiles. People

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Speaker 5: will often say to me, who do you think make

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Speaker 5: the best lies? Politicians or what? Pedophiles Without a doubt,

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Speaker 5: they're very good at manipulating their victims, their treatment providers,

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Speaker 5: and everyone in between. So usually you'll find if in

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Speaker 5: a social context, you've got to understand the motive, If

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Speaker 5: you can understand why people will lie, then you're closer

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Speaker 5: to actually working out when people are lying. So usually,

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Speaker 5: in a let's say it's a dating situation, people are

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Speaker 5: going to tell you what they want you to know.

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Speaker 5: A great example, my previous business partner, Liz, she was

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Speaker 5: on an online dating site and she was reading out

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Speaker 5: this profile to me and she went out with this

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Speaker 5: guy and on the profile it said he's six foot two,

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Speaker 5: is really well built, six pack. Abs goes to the gym,

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Speaker 5: and I'm reading the profile and I'm having major problems

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Speaker 5: with it. And one of the statements was I'm trying

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Speaker 5: to get to the gym. What he's doing? Is he

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Speaker 5: telling you what he's trying to do if he'd gone

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Speaker 5: to the gym. I go to the gym regularly. So

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Speaker 5: how people use language will often bring them unstuck. Anyway,

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Speaker 5: she goes out with this guy and she said, I

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Speaker 5: couldn't believe it when I actually met him. He was

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Speaker 5: not six foot he was about five foot four, had

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Speaker 5: a podge guts and teeth like a serrated state knife.

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Speaker 5: So there's the reason why people lie in dating profiles

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Speaker 5: to find a potential partner and meet them, even though

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Speaker 5: their part or whoever they meet will realize that they're

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Speaker 5: not the person that they say they are. And you

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Speaker 5: can understand why people lie. I mean, in my context,

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Speaker 5: in criminal context, you lie to me, and I've got

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Speaker 5: enough forensic, scientific, medical, or cooperative evidence and the jury

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Speaker 5: convicts you, You're gonna jar And I don't care how

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Speaker 5: well prepared, And we were talking about this before, how

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Speaker 5: well prepared somebody is. You cannot possibly pre anticipate every

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Speaker 5: question that I'm likely to ask you. A great example

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Speaker 5: is if I'm interviewing you for say a homicide, and

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Speaker 5: the pathologist has established a time of death yesterday at

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Speaker 5: seven fifteen pm, I'm going to ask you everything you

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Speaker 5: did from the time you woke up to the time

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Speaker 5: you went to bed, and say around six pm, I'll say,

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Speaker 5: what did you do then I went out? Where did

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Speaker 5: you go to a restaurant? What was the name of

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Speaker 5: the restaurant, How did you get there, who did you

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Speaker 5: go there with, What time did you leave, What time

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Speaker 5: did you arrive? Have you been there before? What was

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Speaker 5: on the menu? What did you order? How did you pay?

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Speaker 5: What time did you leave? That takes a lot of

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Speaker 5: cognitive processing if you're lying, and there will be see

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Speaker 5: pitch and that's where good interviewers can see that.

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Speaker 3: And will you not say that you can court them

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Speaker 3: out on the lie? Will you just take notes and

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Speaker 3: like would you clock it and go? They were iffy

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Speaker 3: about that.

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Speaker 5: Well, it depends on what context in a social context.

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Speaker 5: And I remember many years ago, I was at a

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Speaker 5: party and I was doing a lot of television in

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Speaker 5: the US, and somebody introduced me he is a human

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Speaker 5: lighte detector. And what happened was this woman and there's

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Speaker 5: probably about forty fifty people there, and she said to me,

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Speaker 5: she said, oh, so you're the human line detector. I said, well,

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Speaker 5: I don't call myself that, but the media do. And

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Speaker 5: she said, OK, tell me if I'm lying. She said,

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Speaker 5: I had an affair. And I'm thinking, now, think about

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Speaker 5: this in a social context. If I start asking questions

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Speaker 5: and it looks like to me, she's lying, and I

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Speaker 5: call her out, imagine because her husband's there. Imagine the

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Speaker 5: conflict that's going to create. Whereas if I say, oh, no,

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Speaker 5: I don't see any deception there, then she's going to say, well,

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Speaker 5: he's not very good. So years ago, if I saw

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Speaker 5: somebody lying in a social contest, I might actually take

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Speaker 5: him on. Now I don't why, because we all lie.

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Speaker 5: Think about it. Your partner comes home and he's got

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Speaker 5: a new shirt or something like that, and he says,

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Speaker 5: what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Love it?

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Speaker 5: But see what you just did? Then you did contrary

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Speaker 5: non verbals. Two three things you did. Then your foot moved,

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Speaker 5: your hand went like that, and you shook your head

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Speaker 5: from side to side. Now subconsciously you were engaging those

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Speaker 5: behaviors even though you didn't know you were doing it.

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Speaker 4: So see, I would just say I wouldn't like it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but see, but look at the other side of that.

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Speaker 5: My ex partner. When I finished the story, you understand

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Speaker 5: why she was my ex. Men and women shop very differently, Okay,

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Speaker 5: So a lot of men will go and make that

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Speaker 5: kill when we were out of there. So Kath she

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Speaker 5: would go into a shop, she'd go try all these

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Speaker 5: dresses and stuff on, and then go to another shop

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Speaker 5: and do it again, and another shop and do it again.

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Speaker 5: And for me, it was like torture. One day she

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Speaker 5: comes home, she walks down the stairs, she puts on

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Speaker 5: the dress, walks down, says and says, what do you think?

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Speaker 5: And it was terrible. And this is before my training

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Speaker 5: with the FBI, mind you, And I really told her

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Speaker 5: what I think what I thought. I said, it looks awful,

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Speaker 5: looks like a mobile ABC test bed. And then I

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Speaker 5: saw a distinct change in her behavior. I think about it.

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Speaker 5: I get into more trouble by being upfront, truthful, direct

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Speaker 5: and honest with people than if I lie. So we

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Speaker 5: are socially conditioned. I remember being on a train many

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Speaker 5: years ago, and I mean, what do parents teach their

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Speaker 5: children the importance of being upfront, truthful, direct and honest

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Speaker 5: until they are Then they criticize, castigated in on line

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Speaker 5: the great example, I'm not train. It's about thirty people.

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Speaker 5: This young girl turns around and says to her mum, look, mummy,

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Speaker 5: that man has big titious and the mother turns out

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Speaker 5: she can't say that. You can't say that. Now there's

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Speaker 5: the message. Oh it's okay, you be upfront, direct and

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Speaker 5: truthful to me, but don't hurt other people's feelings. And

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Speaker 5: this is where the social process and men and women

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Speaker 5: lie for very different reasons. Men will Women will often

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Speaker 5: lie to make someone else feel better about themselves, whereas

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Speaker 5: men will often lie to make themselves look better. So

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Speaker 5: we have to understand the context behind that as well.

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Speaker 4: So interesting, so true?

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Speaker 5: Do you know who make better lives? Men or women?

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Speaker 4: What do you think women?

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Speaker 5: Why?

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Speaker 3: I think it's because you're as a man, you're meant

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Speaker 3: to be a protector, but a women you're men like men, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: they do it for themselves.

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Speaker 4: Is that right?

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Speaker 5: Partially, there's a lot of research done by Louis Bresildin

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Speaker 5: in the US, and what they found is that women

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Speaker 5: have more evaluation centers in their brain than men, so

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Speaker 5: they are much more observant at body language and nonverbal

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Speaker 5: cues public maternal instinct, I guess. But they're also more

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Speaker 5: fluent with language at a younger age, so there's much

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Speaker 5: less response latency and hesitancy when a female is lying.

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Speaker 5: So there's less arms and ahs, less pauses and those

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Speaker 5: type of things, but there's more content structure, information and detail,

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Speaker 5: whereas men's lies are very simple. You know, I got

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Speaker 5: caught in traffic or something like that.

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Speaker 3: Someone says that when you are trying to cover up

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Speaker 3: the truth and you're lying, to not always go into detail.

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Speaker 4: That was just when the like horribly, Like.

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Speaker 3: Say, if my friend came home and she had cheated

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Speaker 3: on her partner and she was like, I don't know

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Speaker 3: what to do. He's questioning me. He thinks I cheated.

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Speaker 3: I did cheat, but I don't want him to know.

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Speaker 3: I always go don't go over detail, don't overcompensate. But

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Speaker 3: you're saying to do that almost women to give more detail.

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Speaker 5: So what I've seen in my role is that often

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Speaker 5: people who are deceptive will provide a lot of unnecessary detail,

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Speaker 5: not directly related to the issue. So there'll be evasive

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Speaker 5: I'll try to divert you, or they'll actually blame the

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Speaker 5: other partner or the other party, which is a typical

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Speaker 5: deflecting technique the deceptive people do. And you watch, I mean,

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Speaker 5: there's so many non verbal cues. I mean, I'm looking

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Speaker 5: at you playing with your ring. That's probably a normal

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Speaker 5: natural thing for you to do. Sometimes people may like confidence,

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Speaker 5: or they may be nervous. But what happens is if

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Speaker 5: the questions become a threatening stimulus, we then see changes

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Speaker 5: in behavior. So the questions create the threatening stimulus, which

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Speaker 5: induces a change in behavior. Research shows that often if

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Speaker 5: we know that what we're saying is factually incorrect, we

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Speaker 5: feel uncomfortable about it, and subconsciously our hand will go

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Speaker 5: up to our mouth to cover or to stop those

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Speaker 5: false words coming out of our mouth. But the last

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Speaker 5: moment there'll be deflections such as ear tagging, eye rubbing,

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Speaker 5: nose blocking, or nose touching. In fact, we have glands

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Speaker 5: at the tip of our nose, which make our nose

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Speaker 5: itchy when we lie, believe or not so secretes a

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Speaker 5: particular chemical. So the Pinocco theory is not that far

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Speaker 5: removed from reality. But holistically we need to look for

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Speaker 5: groups or clusters of behavior. It's not just one offs.

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Speaker 3: Are there any certain facial expressions or justice when you

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Speaker 3: can tell that someone's being instantly and truthvial as you said,

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Speaker 3: with the deflection of the face. What is someone say?

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Speaker 3: I was on a date with a man and I

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Speaker 3: was asking him a bunch of questions. What are some

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Speaker 3: body mannerisms or anything that they can do?

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Speaker 4: You're like, oh, bit of a red flag.

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Speaker 5: So I'd like to start with the face and work

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Speaker 5: our way down because our face is the most exposed

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Speaker 5: part of our body. Now, a guy by the name

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Speaker 5: of Professor Paul Leckman did his PhD in microexpressions and

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Speaker 5: distress signals. What's thatpp When we experience a feeling, a thought,

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Speaker 5: or an emotion, it will exhibit itself on our face

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Speaker 5: botox dependent within one twenty fifth to one one hundredth

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Speaker 5: of a second. Okay, So as humans, we all exhibit

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Speaker 5: the same facial expressions of shock horror, happiness, contempt, sorrow,

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Speaker 5: and discussed. Now what happens is if we feel a

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Speaker 5: particular emotion, he crowded what we call the facial action

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Speaker 5: coding system. So how we start is quite interesting. When

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Speaker 5: he did his PhD, he went to Papua New Guinea

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Speaker 5: and found a remote tribe. And what he found was,

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Speaker 5: even though they'd never had any contact with Western civilization,

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Speaker 5: they all exhibited the same facial micro expressions of happiness, sadness, contempt, discussed,

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Speaker 5: and so on as someone in New York City. So

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Speaker 5: what that meant was we were born with particular muscular

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Speaker 5: facial features that he combined. So what he'd look at is,

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Speaker 5: I'll give an example. You tell me if you think

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Speaker 5: this is a real smile.

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Speaker 2: No, because it's not in your eyes.

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Speaker 5: Okay. So a real smile will involve the ubicularis oculi

404
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Speaker 5: muscles and the zygometric majors. What does that mean, Well,

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Speaker 5: the corners of my lips will be pulled up and

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Speaker 5: they may be crinkling around the eyes. That may be

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Speaker 5: a genuine smile, okay, Whereas a false smile usually curs

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Speaker 5: from the nose down, and we see that a lot.

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Speaker 5: You know, when people are posing to somebody they don't

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Speaker 5: like that, that type of thing. So micro expressions are

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Speaker 5: really good. So it could be discussed. Let me give

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Speaker 5: you a couple and you tell me if you can

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Speaker 5: work them out. So what I gets you to describe

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Speaker 5: my face? Then you tell me which emotion you think

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Speaker 5: is connected to it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So he's got a bit of a crinkled eyebrow there,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like he's leaning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like he's kind of like cheesing a little bit,

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Speaker 3: like he looks a bit dissed.

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Speaker 5: He's discussed discussed. So you watch somebody if they smell

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Speaker 5: something future like, the head will go back. They'll be

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Speaker 5: furrowing and bridging above the nose and there'll be a

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Speaker 5: head recall. So that's discussed. What about this one?

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Speaker 4: So you went to an angle a little bit into

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Speaker 4: your shoulder.

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Speaker 1: Frow?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so what emotion do you think that's indicative of?

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Speaker 4: It's like inquisity.

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Speaker 3: If you don't, you're not like you're going You're like

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Speaker 3: you're questioning someone you're not really sure that they're like.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, disbelief or contempt and Paul Ekman And it's really

432
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 5: interesting because there's an intellectual movement of the mouth to

433
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 5: one side. And when somebody is doubtful, they'll do something

434
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 5: like that. So if you're let's say you're a salesperson,

435
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 5: you're selling somebody something and the like that. I'm over exaggerating,

436
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 5: but that would tell me that they're not believing what

437
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 5: you're saying. But also what I do is I have

438
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 5: high and low confidence gestures. What does that mean? Well,

439
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 5: if somebody is doubtful about what they're saying, so they're

440
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 5: telling you a story. And I see this all the time,

441
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 5: and people don't even realize they're doing it. They'll actually

442
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 5: do something so minute like that. I just did it

443
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 5: a micro expression shoulder shrug. Now you ask a child,

444
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 5: or you ask a child a question they don't know

445
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 5: the answer, they'll lift their eyebrows, raise their shoulders, and

446
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 5: put their palms up. Now, if say, for example, you're

447
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 5: telling me a story you know it's actually incorrect and false,

448
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 5: you will engage in subconscious micro expressions and nonverbal cues

449
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 5: that will actually be at odds with what you're saying.

450
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 5: So I give you a great example.

451
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 3: You go to.

452
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 5: Someplace and you're eating the food and it's the worse

453
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 5: food you've ever tasted and they say, what do you think.

454
00:22:59,080 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 5: You go, yeah, that's good.

455
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 4: Oh you just shrugged.

456
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, that indicates uncertainty in doubt. But if I say, oh, no,

457
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 5: it's really good, but at the same time shrug my shoulder,

458
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 5: then that's a double wmy okay. Or if I do

459
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 5: that and also my hand goes to my mouth and

460
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 5: touches my nose or rubs my ear, that's a deflection

461
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 5: at the last moment, because in a social context, I

462
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 5: can't say, on God, why has he got his hand

463
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 5: in front of his mouth, So at the last moment

464
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 5: would be a deflection, And it's behavioral scientists believe it's

465
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 5: a way of diffusing the anxiety associated with being caught

466
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 5: in the life.

467
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: Do you think the can you toll between someone who's

468
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: just generally a fidgety person or someone that's doing those

469
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: little micro movements when they're lying.

470
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 5: So watching somebody who's quite fidget is quite easy. That's

471
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 5: you to it te So in fact, when you first

472
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 5: walked in, I was watching you all over the place,

473
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 5: whereas you were quite calm and measured and comfortable. Right,

474
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 5: But that in itself doesn't mean anything. All we what

475
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 5: we need to do is baseline. Then look for deviations

476
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 5: or so, let's say I ask you a question, you know,

477
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 5: did you take that phone? And you did take the phone,

478
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 5: and you don't want me to know, you'd say something,

479
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 5: go why would I do something like that? Now you

480
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 5: might become defensive. And by the way, I see this

481
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 5: all the time. We don't want to look at just

482
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 5: single one offs like a loss of eye contact. We

483
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,479
Speaker 5: need to look for groups or clusters of behavior. Let

484
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 5: me give you a great example. Throw a question, any

485
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 5: question you like at me. It doesn't matter any question.

486
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 4: What did you have for breakfast this morning?

487
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 5: What I have for breakfast? That's interesting? Why is that important? Now?

488
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 5: Let's look what I just did then? Number one, I

489
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 5: moved in the chair backwards. Number two, I crossed my legs.

490
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 5: Number three I turned sideways. No, front of alignment. Number four,

491
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 5: I cross my arms. Number five. Did I answer the question?

492
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 4: No?

493
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 5: So we need to look for groups and clusters of behaviors,

494
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 5: but we also need to look for inconsistencies in language.

495
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 5: Let me give you a quick example. If I asked

496
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 5: you what you did this morning, neurologically, through sensory input,

497
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 5: you'd be able to tell me what you did what

498
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 5: you heard, what you saw, what you felt. Conversations took place,

499
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 5: why because you live through them. Whereas if you're fabricating

500
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 5: or creating a false memory that never existed for everyone knowing,

501
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 5: you tell you have to now invent two or three

502
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 5: to protect yourself from the first one. Now you're getting

503
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 5: caught in a vortex because the more over time, truthful

504
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 5: people will always recall their events from front to back,

505
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 5: back to front. But what they'll do the deceptive people

506
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 5: never do is they'll tell you how they feel, or

507
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 5: they'll tell you what emotions they experienced. So what do

508
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 5: I mean? They'll say something like I couldn't believe it,

509
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 5: you know, I just I had this gut filling something

510
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 5: was wrong. So they're actually including themselves in the narrative.

511
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 5: Whereas a lot of statements that I see if a deceptive,

512
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 5: if any person removes themselves from the narrative, I have

513
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 5: red flags. So if I'm asking you what you did

514
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 5: say yesterday morning and you say went to the shop,

515
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 5: but you don't use a pronoun such as I went

516
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 5: to the show, I want to know why are you

517
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 5: not including yourself in the story of the narrative.

518
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: You weren't actually there. Is it because they weren't actually

519
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 2: doing it?

520
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 5: Well, it might be because they normally talk like that,

521
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 5: because in some cultures through Aysia, they talk in present tense.

522
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 5: In our society, Western society, if you're relying a historic event,

523
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 5: you'll be talking in singular person, past tense. I woke up,

524
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 5: I had a shower, I walked at the dog. Anytime

525
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 5: someone jumps between singular person past tense and present tense,

526
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 5: there's missing information. And right at that moment where they

527
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 5: start jumping between tenses, that's when I'll go in and

528
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 5: I'll question further because there's inconsistencies in this story.

529
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: All right, So when you said that, like you big

530
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 3: mannerisms and body languages are like changing and stuff like that.

531
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: So I am known on the internet.

532
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 4: To have a pretty big, resting bitch face.

533
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: There's not a lot of emotion that goes on there,

534
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: or I constantly look quite discouraged. Yes talk and like

535
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: when I'm taking and I'm like, I say, oh, it's

536
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 3: because I'm actively listening. I catch myself frowning and like

537
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: looking quite to be honest, disgusted and angry in what

538
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 3: they're saying. But it's just because I'm like trying to

539
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: process what's going on in what they're saying.

540
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 4: You would you say that? That's like a deception, like

541
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 4: what would you.

542
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 5: No, that's more an evaluation gesture because what happens is

543
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 5: if you're listening to somebody, technically you're not lying. Remember

544
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 5: what I said before, A lies where you willfully mislead somebody,

545
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 5: you know, A great example is if you're not talking,

546
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 5: technically you're not lying. So if you're listening, you may

547
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 5: disagree with what they're saying, and your facial expressions may

548
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 5: display that, but that's very different from deliberately intentionally lying

549
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 5: and knowing that what you're saying is wrong or incorrect. Right,

550
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 5: So you may to use your saying look like a

551
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 5: resting bitch face or something. But the point there is

552
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 5: is if you're normally like that, I want to look

553
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 5: for deviations or changes from that, right.

554
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 4: So that's what that's my baseline.

555
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 5: Correct, You've got nothing to measure again, so let me

556
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 5: give you a example. I've already baselined you anyway, So

557
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 5: here's what I'm going to get you to do. Do

558
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 5: you think you're a good lie?

559
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 4: I would say pretty good?

560
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, out of one hundred, what would you give yourself?

561
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 4: Maybe okay, seventy. I'm going to go with seventy.

562
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 5: You're going to go with seventy.

563
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, it depends what it's about.

564
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 5: Okay. So what I'm going to do. I do a

565
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 5: lot of public speaking, and I get people on stage.

566
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 5: I'm going to do what I usually do with you today.

567
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: You do me next.

568
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 5: So let me ask you now. I want you to

569
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 5: be one hundred percent truthful now, and there'll be a reason.

570
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 4: Right, Okay, So I have to tell the truth one.

571
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 5: Hundred percent because and you'll see why in a minute,

572
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 5: because I'm going to draw your attention what you do

573
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 5: and you won't even realize you're doing it. Okay, all right,

574
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 5: So be truthful to start with. Okay, I want you

575
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 5: to tell me what you did this morning from the

576
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 5: time you woke up, excluding personal issues, until the time

577
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 5: you got to the studio. Now, hang on, before we

578
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 5: go on, as much information, content, structure and detail as possible. Okay. Yep.

579
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 3: So I slept through my alarm, so I missed my

580
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: pilates and I was.

581
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 4: A bit upset by that.

582
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 5: What time did you set your alarm clock?

583
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 4: For seven fifteen, and then I woke up at eight,

584
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 4: so I went.

585
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 5: Did you sleep through your alarm?

586
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 4: I consciously turned it off?

587
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 5: Okay?

588
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 4: Yeah?

589
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 3: And then I got a coffee and went to the

590
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: gym and walked on the treadmill, went home.

591
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 5: Jim, did you go do? Okay?

592
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: And then I picked up some groceries, went home, got

593
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 3: ready at breakfast, and then made a TikTok and now

594
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: I'm here, gove here.

595
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 5: What I want you to do this time is I

596
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 5: want you to be really creative, okay, and I want

597
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 5: you to look super duper creative. And I want you

598
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 5: to make up a complete, full story about what you

599
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 5: did this morning, like I mean everything in it. Yeah,

600
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 5: Because usually what you find when I get people to

601
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 5: do this, what they'll do is they'll take truthful pieces

602
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 5: and entwine it with pieces that are not true. So

603
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 5: what I want you to do, be quite creative here

604
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 5: and tell me story. But I want you to make

605
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 5: it sound believable. So I don't want you say you

606
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 5: went to New York and back. No one's going to

607
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 5: believe that, right, But as much content, structure, information in detail.

608
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 4: So this morning I actually didn't wake up.

609
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 5: Okay, I'm going to stop you as we go.

610
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 4: Fucked it right then?

611
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 5: Okay, but but here this is the only way we learn, right,

612
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 5: So you teaching us to lie. The first thing. It's

613
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 5: really interesting because I'm not too sure if the viewers

614
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 5: will pick this up, but the very first thing you

615
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 5: did as soon as you started was your right shoulder

616
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 5: did that trug? Remember I was talking about the shoulder shrug.

617
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 5: Watch your back and you'll say it. Trust me. Okay,

618
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 5: keep going, but I'm just going to just keep making it. Okay,

619
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 5: there you did it again. You weren't doing that before.

620
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, because I know that you guys are all

621
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: going to know. So it's the anticipation that you guys

622
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: are wondering what I'm going to say this morning.

623
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 5: I actually okay, now they're just on that. But I

624
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 5: think this is important because this is a good way

625
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 5: of picking things up. Now the whole since we started,

626
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 5: not once did you use the word actually. I'll see

627
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 5: this a lot. Right. Often, as humans, we don't like

628
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 5: pregnant pauses and we don't like gaps in our conversation.

629
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 5: So what happened was it's like arms and ours. So

630
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 5: when people substitute words for unnecessary or superfous superfluous fillers.

631
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 5: Then that's a red flag for me, because why would

632
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 5: you say I actually, you just say I did, okay, okay,

633
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 5: unless you were saying actually before, then that's part of you.

634
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 3: I was about to say, actually, well, I didn't wake

635
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: up at my house. I woke up at my boyfriend's

636
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 3: house and then he went straight off to work.

637
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 5: You've got to watch your shoulder. Your shoulder is really

638
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 5: interesting and your right foot. Okay, so here, here's what's happening.

639
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 5: You're so focused on delivering the story you're paying absolutely

640
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 5: no attention what your body's doing. Yeah.

641
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 4: Probably, no, definitely Okay.

642
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 5: So, no matter how easy people think it is to lie.

643
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 5: And I've interviewed clinically diagnosed psychopaths for homicidecosis, and there

644
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 5: are still some telltale science and the difference is you

645
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 5: or I. The word psychopathy is one of the most

646
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 5: misunderstood words in the English language. People think all psychopaths

647
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 5: go out and kill people. That's not the case. I

648
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 5: guarantee you you either have friends or you've worked with

649
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 5: people who have psychopathic behaviors.

650
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: Which I agree.

651
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 5: What's the definition of a psychopath Somebody who's recklessly oblivious

652
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 5: to the physical emotional harm they cause their victims. So

653
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 5: let's just say all three of us are going for

654
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 5: a job interview, and I am clinically diagnosed as a psychopath.

655
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 5: I'm going to do whatever it takes to get the job.

656
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 5: I'm going to destroy you in the pro but I'm

657
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 5: going to get it. I don't care about you. I

658
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 5: have no empathy, I have no emotions, I have no remorse,

659
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 5: I don't care about you. I will get that job.

660
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 5: It doesn't necessarily mean I go out and kill people.

661
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 5: So even with clinically diagnosed psychopaths, and there was a

662
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 5: study done in the US where they had, admittedly it

663
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 5: was a very small control sample, they had twelve clinically

664
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 5: diagnosed psychopaths in the jail population, and they said, this

665
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 5: is what we want you to do. We want to

666
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 5: see if you can beat a polygraph test. Now, a

667
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 5: polygraph works on if a person consciously decides they're going

668
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 5: to lie to a question, they become fearful of being

669
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 5: caught in that line, and that's what innovates and activates

670
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 5: changes in our autonomic nervous system. So we see changes

671
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 5: in heart rate, blood pressure, blood volume, emotional sweating, and

672
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 5: so on respiratory patterns, So the question becomes a threatening stimulus.

673
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 5: Our fight to flight response system kicks in and we

674
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 5: see changes, which is great technology, but it's old technology,

675
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 5: I guess, Whereas now we've got artificial intelligence and so on.

676
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 5: So the question in that case because the threatening stimulus.

677
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 5: But I guess the argument is what if somebody's nervous?

678
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 5: So I often say, you don't need a polygraph to

679
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 5: work out whether or not somebody's lying. You need to

680
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 5: have good observational skills because and also you need to

681
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 5: be a good question asker. I can teach anyone in

682
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 5: half a day how to be a good question asker.

683
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 5: But what I teach people is not how to ask questions,

684
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 5: but how to be andlests of human behavior. That's the difference.

685
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: Quick question, I'm not sure if this is entirely relevant.

686
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 2: What's the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath?

687
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, so psychopath really has very little feelings or remorse

688
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 5: or emotion. They simply don't care what they do through

689
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 5: the victims, wherea's sociopaths a little bit different because sometimes

690
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 5: you're also see narcissistic behaviors in that behavior. So do

691
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 5: you have any friends or you know anyone, and they're

692
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 5: always lying about the simplest, smallest things. Yes, and you

693
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 5: know they're lie. Everyone else knows they're lying, but it's

694
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 5: what they do. But often it will be for a

695
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 5: different reason. It will be to be liked, it will

696
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 5: be to gain attention. That's more sociopathic than psychopathic, And

697
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 5: the psychopathic checklist, which was designed to look for certain

698
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 5: behavioral traits, really focus on the fact that there's no empathy, remorse, feeling,

699
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 5: or emotions.

700
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: That's traits of psychopaths, not sociopaths.

701
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 5: So we've all had contact with people who have lied

702
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 5: to us straight to our face. In relationships is a

703
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 5: great example, someone having a fling or an affair or

704
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 5: whatever one of the things you I don't know if

705
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 5: you want to know the answer to this.

706
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 4: But to catch someone on cheating, well yeah, okay.

707
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 5: Well, firstly, usually you'll find there'll be behaviors that people

708
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 5: don't pick up, so running out and texting in the

709
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 5: backyard when you're sitting with your partner, you know, not

710
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 5: answering phone calls, or when the question is asked are

711
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 5: you cheating? Am I cheating? Why would I be cheating?

712
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 5: What's missing there. That's an objection, not a denial. Truthful

713
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 5: people are very clear, concise and upfront when they deny. No,

714
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 5: I don't no, I haven't no. He has been a

715
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 5: direct answer I didn't mean meaning using a personal pronoun,

716
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 5: exonerating themselves from that behavior. But also there's always some

717
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 5: sort of evidence. So I remember a couple coming to

718
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 5: my office and the boyfriend received naked photos of this

719
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 5: girl on his phone, and his partner found those and

720
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 5: she said, well, how did they get there? So we're

721
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 5: not having an affair? But I asked, well, it's technically

722
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 5: still cheating, isn't it emotional? It depends which way you

723
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 5: want to view it. So all the signs were there,

724
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 5: you know, all these flirtatious, secting text messages and all

725
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 5: that sort of stuff together with the photos, and yeah,

726
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 5: she didn't want to believe that a partner was cheating.

727
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 5: He was very adept at looking astraight in the eye

728
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 5: and lying. So you know, it's asking the right questions

729
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 5: and believe it or not. I wrote a chapter in

730
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 5: one of my books about your gut feel ninety percent

731
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 5: of your time, the time when you get a gut

732
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 5: fill you're pretty close. I just teach people to put

733
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 5: a methodology behind that gut fill, which is what to

734
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 5: look for verbal, nonverbal, parallinguistic. We haven't spoken about paralinguistics,

735
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 5: so okay, I can lie with words at our body language.

736
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 5: We need to look for a conflict or contradiction between

737
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 5: what we're saying and what we're doing. Secondly, paralinguistic style

738
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 5: means how the message is communicated. There could be ums

739
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 5: nah's responslate and see tone, pitch, voice modulation. If you

740
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 5: listen really carefully, when somebody feels uncomfortable, their pitch and

741
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 5: their tone will change. You do that twice. So what

742
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 5: will happen is their tone will change. And sometimes it

743
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 5: might be something is why would I do that shoulder shrug?

744
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 5: But also tone a change together with they look at

745
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 5: changes in body language and stuff. And usually if I'm

746
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 5: sitting close enough, I can't see from here, but our

747
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 5: pupils will rapidly dilate when we're being deceptive. And in fact,

748
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 5: we also know through research that our blink rate increases

749
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 5: six to eightfold after the delivery of the deception. Now

750
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 5: think about that for a second. So somebody's lying to

751
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 5: they'll look you in the eye and then all of

752
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 5: a sudden, they'll tell their story and then they'll do

753
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 5: this and like blink like yeah, indicative of relief, so

754
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 5: believe it or not. And I see this all the time.

755
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 5: People ask me this question all the time. Do liars

756
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 5: look away or often research shows this it's the opposite.

757
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 5: What they'll do is they'll tell the story and they'll

758
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 5: stare you down. Why because I want to see whether

759
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 5: or not they think that you are believing what they're saying. Right, So,

760
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 5: if you do this, they're going to pick it up.

761
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 5: Because you know, an interview is a two way process.

762
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 5: If I'm interviewing you for whatever, you want to know

763
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 5: what information I have about you, and I want to

764
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 5: know information that you have that you may not disclass

765
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 5: So the only way that's going to happen is by

766
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 5: asking good, direct, probing questions. Yeah, you know, where's go

767
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 5: last night? I went out? Where'd you go? What time

768
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 5: do you leave? All that sort of stuff, Because then

769
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 5: if they're being evasive, side stepping the issue, not answering

770
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 5: the question, that's a red flag right there. Secondly, they

771
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 5: start accusing you of behavior that you weren't even involved in.

772
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 5: They're deflicting. That's red flag number two, number three. Their

773
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 5: body language is inconsistent with the spoken word. It just

774
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 5: goes on and on micro expressions to stress signals, the

775
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 5: blocking behaviors, excluding themselves out of the narrative. I remember

776
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 5: one particular case as a homicide and I ran a

777
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 5: training course in the journalist was going to do an

778
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 5: interview what they call a doorstop interview with the suspect,

779
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 5: and she wrings me up and she says, Steve, what

780
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 5: should I ask you? I said, ask him directly if

781
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 5: he murdered his wife and daughter, and she did and

782
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,399
Speaker 5: he said, I never harmed my wife or my daughter.

783
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 5: What he didn't do was answer the question. The question

784
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 5: was very clear, concise, and specific. He answered the question

785
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 5: he wanted to answer, not what the interview asked. A

786
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 5: great example is a case that I worked on and

787
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 5: what had happened was the mother of the child I

788
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 5: went missing and the de facto boyfriend fronted up to

789
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 5: a media conference. And that is a goldmine for me

790
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 5: because I'm looking for emotions in the right place. And

791
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 5: I got a phone call from one of the detectives

792
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 5: and said, what do you think. I said, she's one

793
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 5: hundred The boyfriend is one hundred percent lying and what

794
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 5: he did. And this is before they found the girl.

795
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 5: He said, you know, she was such a wonderful child.

796
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 5: Was his past tense. If you ever speak to a

797
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 5: parent who has had their child abducted, they will never

798
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 5: ever talk in past tense. Why because the host their

799
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 5: child will be returned to live safe and well. I

800
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 5: mean even now, if I speak to families who have

801
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 5: loved ones gone missing or missing persons, they will always

802
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 5: talk in present tents because the hope of the anticipation,

803
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 5: expectation is they'll be returned to live safe and one.

804
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: Out of curiosity. If you're like at home on your

805
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: couch watching the news and you notice that an interview

806
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: about some sort of crime comes up, will you kind

807
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 2: of watch it, monitor it, and if you think they're lying,

808
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 2: will you call someone up and be like, hey, guys,

809
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 2: I think they're lying.

810
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 5: That It depends on what it is. I mean, if

811
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 5: it's something like a current affair with every second person,

812
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 5: I think, if it's a crime like what happens is,

813
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 5: the homicide squad or police department will contact me and

814
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 5: they'll say, listen, we've got a record of interview. Can

815
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 5: we get you either to do an interview or behaveor

816
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 5: analysis interview, which is my specialty. Or can we get

817
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 5: you to analyze the statements made in say rape statement

818
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 5: to see whether or it's a real report of a

819
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 5: real rape or fabricated right. Usually I'll look for certain pronouns.

820
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 5: Usually in rapes, the victim will create distance, disassociation and

821
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 5: separation in language. He made me do this, he made

822
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 5: me do that. Sometimes you may see we did this,

823
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 5: we did that. We denotes a degree of agreement, which

824
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,439
Speaker 5: is usually inconsistent. But also I get them to write

825
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 5: a narrative of what happened over the timeframe and usually

826
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 5: depends on the person that will either include information or

827
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 5: exclude information. Usually I find children make the best witnesses.

828
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much Steve for joining us on

829
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 3: the Tuesday episode. Steve will also be joining us on

830
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 3: Our Girl's Guide to tell us how to detect when

831
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 3: our partner is lying. Possibly some little things here, so

832
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 3: make sure you guys tune into those day's episode to

833
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:46,879
Speaker 3: hear about that.

834
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 4: Will chat to you them b