1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:06,960 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Daily Interview, I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,230 --> 00:00:09,508 Sean Aylmer: You might remember a while ago, we talked about a 3 00:00:09,510 --> 00:00:13,320 Sean Aylmer: few unusual asset classes. There's a whole range of alternative 4 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,529 Sean Aylmer: assets out there, and we explored some of the more left- 5 00:00:16,529 --> 00:00:19,830 Sean Aylmer: field ones, shall we say, from tequila and vinyl records 6 00:00:20,070 --> 00:00:23,430 Sean Aylmer: to buying domain names. Today, we're going back to Stefan 7 00:00:23,430 --> 00:00:30,089 Sean Aylmer: von Imhof, the co- founder of alternative investing community fund, alts. 8 00:00:30,150 --> 00:00:34,528 Sean Aylmer: co, A-L-T-S.co, for a lesson on investing in art. Of course, 9 00:00:34,529 --> 00:00:37,500 Sean Aylmer: this is general information only, and you should certainly seek 10 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:41,458 Sean Aylmer: professional advice before making any investment decisions. Stefan, welcome back 11 00:00:41,519 --> 00:00:42,510 Sean Aylmer: to Fear & Greed. 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:44,639 Stefan von Imhof: Hey, great to be here again. Thank you. 13 00:00:44,820 --> 00:00:48,178 Sean Aylmer: So why is art such an interesting space for investors, 14 00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:49,199 Sean Aylmer: particularly at the moment? 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,000 Stefan von Imhof: Well, it's funny you mentioned left- field investments, and I'm 16 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,279 Stefan von Imhof: not actually sure that art falls into the left field. 17 00:00:57,030 --> 00:00:57,240 Sean Aylmer: True. 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,700 Stefan von Imhof: Depending on how you look at it. I think art 19 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,860 Stefan von Imhof: is either the oldest new alternative investment or the newest 20 00:01:04,950 --> 00:01:05,790 Stefan von Imhof: old alternative. 21 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:07,109 Sean Aylmer: Right, yeah. 22 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:08,999 Stefan von Imhof: Kind of like right in the middle. So it has 23 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,420 Stefan von Imhof: a lot of history. Wealthy investors have been collecting fine 24 00:01:12,450 --> 00:01:16,230 Stefan von Imhof: art for hundreds of years, but along with other alternative 25 00:01:16,230 --> 00:01:19,170 Stefan von Imhof: assets like farmland and wine and whiskey, there's been a 26 00:01:19,170 --> 00:01:22,649 Stefan von Imhof: Cambrian explosion of new platforms that allow retail investors to 27 00:01:22,650 --> 00:01:25,259 Stefan von Imhof: invest in fine art over the past four or five 28 00:01:25,259 --> 00:01:27,720 Stefan von Imhof: years. So it's definitely having a moment right now. 29 00:01:27,929 --> 00:01:31,860 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what's considered, I suppose, the equivalent of blue 30 00:01:31,860 --> 00:01:34,589 Sean Aylmer: chip companies, blue chip art, what is blue chip art? 31 00:01:35,490 --> 00:01:40,080 Stefan von Imhof: Well, art is usually, there's two distinct buckets. There's classical 32 00:01:40,139 --> 00:01:44,069 Stefan von Imhof: and there's contemporary. So basically think of contemporary art as mid- 33 00:01:44,069 --> 00:01:45,600 Stefan von Imhof: 20th century and onward. 34 00:01:45,630 --> 00:01:45,899 Sean Aylmer: Mm- hmm. 35 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,980 Stefan von Imhof: Blue chip is, it really comes down to a few 36 00:01:49,980 --> 00:01:53,190 Stefan von Imhof: different things. What you really want to look for is 37 00:01:53,220 --> 00:01:56,100 Stefan von Imhof: you want to look for artists that have a long, 38 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,379 Stefan von Imhof: strong history of auctions, artists who have been exhibited in 39 00:02:01,380 --> 00:02:05,789 Stefan von Imhof: major galleries, institutions, and whose work is held by major 40 00:02:05,789 --> 00:02:09,840 Stefan von Imhof: collectors. So provenance is very important here. Blue chip would 41 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,079 Stefan von Imhof: not be someone like Banksy, for example. So yes, Banksy 42 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,309 Stefan von Imhof: is very famous and he's internationally famous, and there's a 43 00:02:17,309 --> 00:02:21,480 Stefan von Imhof: lot of people that collect Banksy, but the Banksy paintings 44 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,010 Stefan von Imhof: are more vulnerable to volatility, it's not actually as established 45 00:02:26,010 --> 00:02:28,679 Stefan von Imhof: as someone like Basquiat, for example. 46 00:02:28,710 --> 00:02:31,320 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So I'm actually going to jump in. So Banksy, 47 00:02:31,350 --> 00:02:32,760 Sean Aylmer: because you're going to have to teach me some of 48 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,650 Sean Aylmer: this, so he's the street artist? 49 00:02:34,860 --> 00:02:37,680 Stefan von Imhof: Yeah, Banksy's famous for, I don't know if you saw 50 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,250 Stefan von Imhof: the banana taped to the canvas or the exploding self- 51 00:02:41,250 --> 00:02:45,059 Stefan von Imhof: destructive art, that he's kind of like a very, very 52 00:02:45,450 --> 00:02:46,380 Stefan von Imhof: postmodern artist. 53 00:02:46,380 --> 00:02:46,381 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, yeah. 54 00:02:46,381 --> 00:02:51,000 Stefan von Imhof: Yeah, that's Banksy. And then someone with a little bit 55 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,900 Stefan von Imhof: more blue chip would be someone like Basquiat. So Basquiat, 56 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,660 Stefan von Imhof: he is from the seventies, the New York scene. And 57 00:02:58,169 --> 00:03:01,139 Stefan von Imhof: I mean, basically he tackled race and a lot of 58 00:03:01,139 --> 00:03:05,580 Stefan von Imhof: social commentary. His art is very intense and in your 59 00:03:05,580 --> 00:03:09,899 Stefan von Imhof: face, and he had a short career, but he died 60 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:13,620 Stefan von Imhof: young. And after he died, I mean, his pieces have 61 00:03:13,710 --> 00:03:16,469 Stefan von Imhof: started to really skyrocket and they've been elevated ever since. 62 00:03:16,469 --> 00:03:20,520 Stefan von Imhof: And so he's someone who you'd consider a contemporary blue 63 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Stefan von Imhof: chip artist. 64 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,570 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Now, you wrote a piece recently, and I mean, 65 00:03:24,570 --> 00:03:27,030 Sean Aylmer: it's fascinating and I recommend anyone that would like to 66 00:03:27,030 --> 00:03:28,919 Sean Aylmer: go and read it if you're interested in investing in 67 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,159 Sean Aylmer: art. And well, one of the many things I found 68 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,879 Sean Aylmer: interesting was the process of it, and you talk about 69 00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:38,820 Sean Aylmer: the process in it, but then things like prints, you 70 00:03:38,820 --> 00:03:40,650 Sean Aylmer: describe prints as being underrated. 71 00:03:41,940 --> 00:03:44,880 Stefan von Imhof: Yeah, prints, it's interesting you picked up on that, prints, 72 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,610 Stefan von Imhof: they have a bad rap in the world. If you 73 00:03:47,610 --> 00:03:49,380 Stefan von Imhof: don't know much about it, you might think, " Oh, it's 74 00:03:49,380 --> 00:03:51,960 Stefan von Imhof: not an original. Why does that matter?" But the fact 75 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,870 Stefan von Imhof: is that for blue chip artists, releasing prints is a 76 00:03:54,870 --> 00:03:59,520 Stefan von Imhof: very big deal. And it's not like your friend who's 77 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,770 Stefan von Imhof: an artist who just, everything they do gets released as 78 00:04:01,770 --> 00:04:04,800 Stefan von Imhof: a print and that way everyone can afford it for $ 500. It's not like that 79 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,079 Stefan von Imhof: at the high end of the world. Prints are rare, 80 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,990 Stefan von Imhof: prints, it's very rare to see them in the market 81 00:04:09,990 --> 00:04:12,359 Stefan von Imhof: and see them in the wild. It's also frowned upon 82 00:04:12,359 --> 00:04:14,190 Stefan von Imhof: and it's getting maybe a little too deep into the 83 00:04:14,190 --> 00:04:17,431 Stefan von Imhof: weeds, but it's actually frowned upon to flip prints. And so... 84 00:04:17,431 --> 00:04:18,900 Sean Aylmer: Why's that? 85 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,169 Stefan von Imhof: Because the auction houses want to keep the prices and 86 00:04:22,170 --> 00:04:25,439 Stefan von Imhof: the demand controlled and high. And it's meant to be 87 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,709 Stefan von Imhof: enjoyed, truly. I mean, that is one of the fundamental 88 00:04:28,709 --> 00:04:31,470 Stefan von Imhof: things about art is that the type of people who collect 89 00:04:31,470 --> 00:04:35,280 Stefan von Imhof: art, unlike many other asset classes, there's not actually a 90 00:04:35,490 --> 00:04:38,250 Stefan von Imhof: big flipping culture with art. You're supposed to enjoy it, 91 00:04:38,250 --> 00:04:40,710 Stefan von Imhof: you're supposed to get personal enjoyment from it and showcase 92 00:04:40,710 --> 00:04:42,900 Stefan von Imhof: it and keep it for a long time. I mean, 93 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:44,849 Stefan von Imhof: like I said, provenance is a really important part of 94 00:04:44,849 --> 00:04:46,260 Stefan von Imhof: art collecting, so yeah. 95 00:04:46,709 --> 00:04:48,750 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Stefan, we'll be back in a minute. 96 00:04:54,930 --> 00:04:57,870 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Stefan von Imhof, co- founder 97 00:04:57,870 --> 00:05:02,489 Sean Aylmer: of alternative investing community fund alts. co. Well, I mean, 98 00:05:02,490 --> 00:05:06,059 Sean Aylmer: another one thing you talk about, young contemporary artists. Why 99 00:05:06,059 --> 00:05:10,620 Sean Aylmer: are people drawn to young contemporary artists, and is it 100 00:05:10,620 --> 00:05:13,710 Sean Aylmer: actually a good investment? I mean, it must be a 101 00:05:13,710 --> 00:05:14,520 Sean Aylmer: risky investment. 102 00:05:14,849 --> 00:05:17,099 Stefan von Imhof: It's risky. I mean, young contemporary is a way to 103 00:05:17,099 --> 00:05:19,919 Stefan von Imhof: get into contemporary, but you're basically placing a bet on 104 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,109 Stefan von Imhof: the artist's future. These are artists who show a lot 105 00:05:22,109 --> 00:05:24,960 Stefan von Imhof: of promise, but they don't really have a strong multi- 106 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,950 Stefan von Imhof: decade history of strength in the numbers. And so it's 107 00:05:28,950 --> 00:05:31,830 Stefan von Imhof: risky, it's volatile. For our fund, we don't have any 108 00:05:31,830 --> 00:05:35,039 Stefan von Imhof: young contemporary, all of ours are old contemporary. 109 00:05:35,550 --> 00:05:38,669 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And then along those lines, you talk about underrepresented 110 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:41,280 Sean Aylmer: and female artists. It's another area you've picked out as 111 00:05:41,339 --> 00:05:46,710 Sean Aylmer: undervalued. I suppose, again, they're high risk, probably more opportunity, 112 00:05:46,710 --> 00:05:47,820 Sean Aylmer: but still high risk. 113 00:05:47,970 --> 00:05:53,820 Stefan von Imhof: Not necessarily. So underrepresented isn't necessarily high risk, they aren't really 114 00:05:53,820 --> 00:05:54,419 Stefan von Imhof: that related. 115 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:54,450 Sean Aylmer: Okay. 116 00:05:54,450 --> 00:05:57,870 Stefan von Imhof: I mean, (inaudible) someone underrepresented would be a lot 117 00:05:57,870 --> 00:06:01,350 Stefan von Imhof: of contemporary female artists. So for our fund, we've bought 118 00:06:01,380 --> 00:06:04,230 Stefan von Imhof: a piece from Bridget Riley, and Bridget Riley is a 119 00:06:04,230 --> 00:06:07,710 Stefan von Imhof: British modern artist who, the best way to describe her 120 00:06:07,710 --> 00:06:10,770 Stefan von Imhof: work is it lends itself extremely well to a digital 121 00:06:10,770 --> 00:06:15,238 Stefan von Imhof: age today. I mean, this was created far before digital 122 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,479 Stefan von Imhof: age began. So her stuff, you look at it and 123 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,279 Stefan von Imhof: it looks like it was digitally created, but I mean, 124 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:21,630 Stefan von Imhof: this was back in the seventies and I mean, it 125 00:06:21,630 --> 00:06:25,980 Stefan von Imhof: was long before computer software and everything. So yeah, I 126 00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:29,700 Stefan von Imhof: mean, at the time, she was very groundbreaking. And today, 127 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:32,880 Stefan von Imhof: I mean, it's clear that her pieces speak for themselves 128 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,280 Stefan von Imhof: in terms of how society values them over time. And 129 00:06:35,940 --> 00:06:38,700 Stefan von Imhof: so we do have a small Bridget Riley piece for 130 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:41,160 Stefan von Imhof: our fund, which we're very proud of. She's also getting 131 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,000 Stefan von Imhof: very old, she unfortunately won't be with us for too 132 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,269 Stefan von Imhof: much longer. And so that does play into things as well. 133 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:50,639 Sean Aylmer: Now, many of us, when we think about art, many 134 00:06:50,730 --> 00:06:54,839 Sean Aylmer: of we less sophisticated people, think about art, you always 135 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,600 Sean Aylmer: think about the Impressionists. You talk about there is actually 136 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,460 Sean Aylmer: an opportunity, I mean, it's very difficult to go and buy 137 00:06:59,460 --> 00:07:02,309 Sean Aylmer: a Monet or even part of a Monet, but there are 138 00:07:02,309 --> 00:07:05,279 Sean Aylmer: opportunities in lesser- known impressionists. 139 00:07:05,969 --> 00:07:08,759 Stefan von Imhof: Yeah, it's interesting you think of Impressionism and you think 140 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:12,510 Stefan von Imhof: of Monet, Renoir, but there were other Impressionists that just 141 00:07:13,140 --> 00:07:15,870 Stefan von Imhof: they're not as the household names as the big ones. 142 00:07:15,870 --> 00:07:20,070 Stefan von Imhof: So Pissarro is one, Alfred Sisley. It's a great way 143 00:07:20,070 --> 00:07:23,790 Stefan von Imhof: to buy Impressionism that although the history books haven't been 144 00:07:23,790 --> 00:07:27,780 Stefan von Imhof: as kind to these types of artists, they're still underrated in our minds. 145 00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:32,010 Sean Aylmer: Oh, I'm partnered to someone who studied the Impressionists and 146 00:07:32,010 --> 00:07:34,590 Sean Aylmer: so wherever we go, if there's an art gallery, I 147 00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:38,370 Sean Aylmer: find myself looking at Impressionist art of people I had 148 00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:42,929 Sean Aylmer: never heard before. So I get that totally. Stefan. Tell me- 149 00:07:42,929 --> 00:07:46,769 Stefan von Imhof: It's funny, Impressionism is actually how I got into artwork back 150 00:07:46,770 --> 00:07:49,260 Stefan von Imhof: in middle school. That was really when I started to 151 00:07:49,260 --> 00:07:52,950 Stefan von Imhof: realize just how intense and interesting and how time- consuming 152 00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:55,140 Stefan von Imhof: it can be to create a masterpiece. So it's funny, 153 00:07:55,140 --> 00:07:56,849 Stefan von Imhof: I think, for me, it was kind of like a 154 00:07:56,849 --> 00:07:58,440 Stefan von Imhof: gateway drug into the art world. 155 00:07:59,010 --> 00:08:02,670 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, okay. Now, take me through how fractional art investing 156 00:08:02,670 --> 00:08:06,600 Sean Aylmer: works. Really interesting for most people who don't have millions 157 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:07,680 Sean Aylmer: of dollars to invest in art. 158 00:08:08,190 --> 00:08:10,710 Stefan von Imhof: Fractionalization is a huge trend in a lot of alternative 159 00:08:10,710 --> 00:08:14,010 Stefan von Imhof: assets right now, and artwork is absolutely one of them. 160 00:08:14,010 --> 00:08:17,280 Stefan von Imhof: So with fractionalization, a company will buy a piece at 161 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,530 Stefan von Imhof: auction. It doesn't have to be at auction, it can 162 00:08:19,530 --> 00:08:22,259 Stefan von Imhof: be, but they'll buy a piece in full and then 163 00:08:22,260 --> 00:08:25,800 Stefan von Imhof: they basically IPO that piece. So in a sense, they 164 00:08:26,310 --> 00:08:29,460 Stefan von Imhof: fractionalize the piece into shares and sell each of those 165 00:08:29,460 --> 00:08:32,458 Stefan von Imhof: shares for it can be as low as $ 100 or 166 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:35,820 Stefan von Imhof: so. The biggest platform that people may have heard of 167 00:08:35,820 --> 00:08:39,120 Stefan von Imhof: or should know about is called Masterworks. And of all the 168 00:08:39,450 --> 00:08:44,220 Stefan von Imhof: alternative investing fractionalization platforms, Masterworks is really leading the way 169 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:47,458 Stefan von Imhof: in terms of educating people on investing in art and 170 00:08:47,460 --> 00:08:52,920 Stefan von Imhof: in investing through fractionalization. I personally have definitely invested with 171 00:08:53,580 --> 00:08:56,070 Stefan von Imhof: Masterworks, and it's one of my favorite platforms. 172 00:08:56,219 --> 00:09:00,029 Sean Aylmer: Fantastic. What about buying pieces on your own? I mean, 173 00:09:00,029 --> 00:09:02,309 Sean Aylmer: is having an art broker important? 174 00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:04,650 Stefan von Imhof: You don't have to use a broker. I would definitely 175 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:06,720 Stefan von Imhof: recommend it. So you can just go to an auction. 176 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,729 Stefan von Imhof: Anyone, there's nothing stopping you from just going to an 177 00:09:08,730 --> 00:09:11,999 Stefan von Imhof: auction, raising your hand and committing to a buy. The 178 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,070 Stefan von Imhof: problem is you're going to pay a buyer's premium. When 179 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:16,319 Stefan von Imhof: that hammer goes down, they're going to add 25%. So 180 00:09:17,609 --> 00:09:19,588 Stefan von Imhof: I mean, that is a lot to stomach for a 181 00:09:19,590 --> 00:09:23,130 Stefan von Imhof: lot of people. For many collectors, that's too much. There's 182 00:09:23,130 --> 00:09:26,099 Stefan von Imhof: also galleries, you can buy from galleries, especially special showings 183 00:09:26,099 --> 00:09:28,650 Stefan von Imhof: and stuff like that. But if you're really serious about 184 00:09:28,650 --> 00:09:30,719 Stefan von Imhof: it, just do what we did, which is, yeah, find 185 00:09:30,719 --> 00:09:33,149 Stefan von Imhof: a broker, find a trusted broker. And so we have 186 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,150 Stefan von Imhof: a lot of folks in our community who are really 187 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:38,610 Stefan von Imhof: into art collecting, and one of them, we've developed a 188 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:41,760 Stefan von Imhof: great relationship, a gentleman in the UK. And so he 189 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,220 Stefan von Imhof: is basically our go- to guy. He'll give us ideas 190 00:09:44,220 --> 00:09:47,639 Stefan von Imhof: for what's hot, what's coming next. We talk to him about once every 191 00:09:47,639 --> 00:09:49,889 Stefan von Imhof: few months or so. He's our broker, he's our guy, 192 00:09:49,889 --> 00:09:51,630 Stefan von Imhof: and I would definitely recommend others do the same. 193 00:09:52,529 --> 00:09:55,080 Sean Aylmer: Now, if anyone's interested, so it's Alts Academy. If you 194 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,230 Sean Aylmer: Google Alts Academy, and it's the second issue of Alts 195 00:09:58,230 --> 00:10:02,639 Sean Aylmer: Academy, fascinating look at how to invest in art or 196 00:10:02,639 --> 00:10:05,069 Sean Aylmer: why you should invest in art, everything. Stefan, you wrote 197 00:10:05,070 --> 00:10:07,980 Sean Aylmer: that piece, I presume, did you? Because I got glued 198 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:08,249 Sean Aylmer: to it. 199 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,349 Stefan von Imhof: I'd love to take credit. That was actually my co- 200 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:11,639 Stefan von Imhof: founder, Wyatt, who wrote that one. 201 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,059 Sean Aylmer: You can take credit as far as I'm concerned. Look, 202 00:10:15,059 --> 00:10:17,130 Sean Aylmer: Stefan, thank you very much though for talking to us 203 00:10:17,130 --> 00:10:18,390 Sean Aylmer: this morning on Fear & Greed. 204 00:10:18,780 --> 00:10:19,348 Stefan von Imhof: Oh, thank you. 205 00:10:20,099 --> 00:10:23,670 Sean Aylmer: That was Stefan von Imhof, co- founder of alternative investing 206 00:10:23,670 --> 00:10:28,049 Sean Aylmer: community fund alts. co, A- L- T- S. co. This 207 00:10:28,049 --> 00:10:30,478 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear & Greed Daily Interview. Remember, this is general 208 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:33,929 Sean Aylmer: information only, and you should seek professional advice before making 209 00:10:33,929 --> 00:10:36,900 Sean Aylmer: any investment decision. Join us every morning for the full 210 00:10:36,900 --> 00:10:40,080 Sean Aylmer: episode of Fear & Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm 211 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:41,699 Sean Aylmer: Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.