WEBVTT - Read This: Hoot and Holler for Kaliane Bradley 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.559 Hi there, It's Daniel James and I'm back to share 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:07.040 another episode of Read This, Schwartz Media's weekly books podcast. 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.360 Hosted by Editor of the Monthly Michael Williams. It features 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.080 conversations with some of the most talented writers from Australia 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.360 and around the world. This week, Michael is chatting with 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:22.480 best selling debut author Kelly Anne Bradley. As always, Michael 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:23.880 is here to tell me a little bit more about 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:28.320 the episode. Hello Michael, Daniel, Hello again. So Michael. Your 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.000 guest on today's episode is Kelly Ane Bradley, whose debut 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.760 novel The Ministry of Time became an absolute sensation when 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.080 it was released last year. Why do people fall in 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:37.880 love with this book? 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.920 Look, I'm gonna say right from the outset, I'm a 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.000 sucker for a time travel narrative, whether it's TV, movie 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.720 or book. I love a good time travel story. Kate 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.640 Atkinson's life after Life is terrific. Time traveler's wife is brilliant. 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:55.000 Like anytime there's what doctor who refers to as whibley 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.080 wobbly timey wymy stuff, I'm there for it. And so 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.000 I was immediately curious to see what the Ministry of 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.160 Time had on the cards. And part of what's so 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.000 good about it is that it's delivered pretty straight. You know, 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.920 it accepts its reality. Here's what's possible in terms of 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.399 time travel, and here's how government bureaucracy acts as a 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:16.959 kind of overlay over the whole thing. Plus it's a 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.959 spy book and a romance novel and a book for 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.600 people who are horny about Arctic explorers. So really, if 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:24.360 that doesn't tick one of your boxes, I don't know 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:25.000 what I can say. 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.120 And for those of us who perhaps have the ministry 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.080 of time and our not stands, but haven't had the 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.640 chance to dive in, can you briefly set it. 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:33.119 Up for us? 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.440 Yeah, no worries, although, as with all things time travel, 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.960 it's slightly complicated. But the book centers on a young 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.480 woman who's a civil servant and she's been offered a 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.720 chance to move across to a new government ministry, and 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.800 there they gather people who are kind of unstuck from 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.160 time through this new technology. They're appearing in the present day. 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.040 They're named for the period that they came from, and 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.800 they're referred to as ex pats. And this civil servant's 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.080 job is to be a bridge she has to live 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.160 with and monitor. One of those expatriates. He's eighteen forty 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.360 seven and his actual name back before he time traveled 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.640 to was Commander Graham Gore, a Victorian polar explorer, and 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:14.400 he has made the move to the present day and 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:16.680 he has to make sense of everything from Spotify to 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.520 washing machines to feminism. He chained, smokes inside and kind 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:23.840 of gets grumpy trying to discover the new world, and 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.480 as inevitably happens, the two of them get drawn to 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.280 each other in a range of ways. It's really a 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:35.200 great fun read, and Calayanne explains in this conversation the 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.160 ways in which it originated out of basically a thought 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.200 exercise with her friends. We've seen a historical figure, we 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.800 think he's sexy. Let's write a story that lets a 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:46.200 bit of wishful film and happen. 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:47.880 And it goes from there. 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.120 Coming up with just a moment hoot and holler for Kellyanne. 0:02:52.639 --> 0:03:02.320 Bradley, tell me about your relationship with time travel, because 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.519 it seems to me that as far as a storytelling 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.000 convention or a genre trope goes, it is one that 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:13.800 is peculiarly characterized by its need for rules and structure 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.280 and rigidity, and I'm interested in whether that's something that 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.320 appeals to you and whether it created a challenge for 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:21.239 you right out of the gate. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.800 I mean both things. Really, it appealed to me because 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.640 I think a lot of the stakes don't work without 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.080 a certain amount of rigidity and without certain rules. I 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.480 also think this is true of things like human relationships, 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:39.080 community interaction, like these things depend on those agreed rules 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.000 and certain level of stakes. So that definitely appealed to 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:45.000 me when I first started writing, because I was more 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.760 interested in the kind of after effects of having time 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.400 traveled than the science of time travel. So I was 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.800 being a bit vague about exactly how the rules worked, 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.280 and I got I think it was almost one thousand 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.320 words from one of my editors in a marginal note, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.000 like you have to explain how this works because otherwise 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.400 it doesn't matter. You can hop back in time and 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.560 anything could happen, and you could you know there's a timeline, 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.720 whether everyone is just a flying monkey and everything's absolutely fine. 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:12.320 So even though I did, the rules really appealed to me. 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.360 I was also messing around with the rules until someone 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:16.320 poked me with a stick to make me set them 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:16.880 up properly. 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.719 It's such a funny thing because the rules matter in 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.160 an idea's sense, but they matter even more in a 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.760 narrative sense. Like, as you say, you have to set 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:26.600 up the rules so you know where the stakes are. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.039 But the other thing that you need to do, and 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.119 I think all time travel literature to a certain extent 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.200 has to do, is find its own limitations. How do 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.800 we ring fence this off so that it doesn't become 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:38.880 completely weightless? 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.400 Absolutely, because also I think narrative demands a certain amount 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:48.280 of linear focus, and I think that things like character progression, 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.000 narrative progression, emotional progression requires a certain amount of as 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.839 you say, ring fencing of the timeline. So if you 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.479 were just throwing people around chaotically, there's nothing really for 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.880 a reader to hook into. You want to be following 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.520 someone watching them bounce around. I mean, maybe Calvino would 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.040 disagree with me, but certainly for a book like this. 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.320 It strikes me that when we talk about rules or 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.159 structural stuff, the other way to talk about that is 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.520 the language. Settling on what the kind of a grade 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.080 language is for an imaginary thing goes a long way 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.919 to rendering it real. How quickly did the language of 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.640 the bureaucracy around time travel come to you? 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.480 I'm so embarrassed to say very fast. I would say 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:34.160 maybe the language of bureaucracy and the language of governmental 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.440 rules came faster than the big idea stuff about how 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.560 time travel works and therefore what affect emotional psychological it 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.640 has on characters. I don't know, there's something dark inside 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.800 me that is really drawn towards bureaucracy. This is like 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:50.840 with John McCarey thing I read. I started being John 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.240 lacay very very young, before I really understood even the 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.400 political context. And when you read something like Tinker Taylor 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.080 Soldier Spy, where he's just refusing to explain what he 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.800 means by the lamp lighters and the scalp punters and 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:07.080 circus and the cousins, didn't know what was happening until 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:09.479 a second re read when I was much older. But 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.719 still is having a great time, just a great time. 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.760 I think, And I'm glad you mentioned that because it 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.440 is and you know that's one of the other genre 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:19.640 conventions that you play with in this book. But the 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.120 spy novel is always great for that is the if 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.160 it asserts a world with a language that feels authoritative 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.039 enough you go along as a reader. It doesn't matter, 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.920 you know. It was only listening to an interview with 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.320 Mick Hare and I discovered that most of his terminology 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:36.360 is completely his own fabrication. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:37.800 The park is not real. 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.599 They don't talk about seconds, none of that stuff that 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.200 he created entirely for the world of the book and 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.440 just still lives it straight faced enough that it feels 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:49.919 like something true. 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.240 You've walked into a room where people are talking like this, 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:54.520 and you're like, well, I better not a long otherwise 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:55.320 they're going to kick me out. 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.400 Don't embarrass myself. If I'd be like, oh, I didn't 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:58.719 know they were called the dogs. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.920 Then it's just a lie. 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:02.480 Oh my god, it's so good. 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.440 There is something about that that's nice. But leaving aside 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.920 the human element for a moment and leaving inside the 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.360 polar explorer element for a moment, the kind of overlay 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.840 of time travel, bureaucracy, and the spy novel in this book. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.880 The interplay is a linguistic one. You know, the ways 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.680 in which you allow those three things to make sense 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:26.000 and function relies entirely on that shared language and that reasoning, 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.800 and maybe no more acute than the idea of the 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.280 people who are out of their own time zones being 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.000 talked about as expatriates. 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.840 Absolutely, so that's a very deliberate political choice on the 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.800 part of the ministry to call them expatriates instead of refugees. 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.000 And I do think what the ministry are very insistent 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.000 on doing. One the first things they start doing is 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.240 making sure the experts are using correct language, both to 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.280 describe the world around them but also in terms of 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.560 politically correct language. And I think there's two things that 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:00.400 play for me there. One is like the quite hopeful, 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.400 I think and quite positive idea that we create communities 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.480 by having a shared understanding of the world we're living 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.800 in in a vocabulary that we can all easily refer to. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.120 And so as a result, our sense of self is 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:13.920 kind of built out of these words that were given 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.720 for ourselves. So there's the ex about Maggie Margaret Kemball, 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.800 who's from the Great Plague of London, who is given 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:21.480 for the first time in her life the word lesbian, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.200 and it's wonderful for her, it's really liberating and really affirming. 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.920 Then there is also institutional language, which is often taking 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.640 the language of radical systems, radical responses to injustice, and 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.160 institutionalizing and defanging them. So it becomes about language that 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:41.360 is correct rather than language that is empathetic. And I 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.880 find there's an exciting contrast for me there, because in 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.600 one case, you've been given new language and new taxonomies 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.839 that are really liberating, and then you're being given new 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.120 languages and new taxonomies that are actually quite deadening and 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.000 are encourage you to think of yourself as ticking boxes 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.400 rather than actually thinking about the reality of the people. 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:01.959 And that for me is like the big tension in 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:03.800 the ministry and the big tension for the narrator. 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.800 It is, I mean, the easy temptation is to look 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.680 to or Well for that example of the way in 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:15.400 which an institution imposes language to deaden but also to 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:19.640 other I think that relationship between those who are of 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.760 the project, whether it's the colonial project, whether it's the 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.199 corporate project, those who belong and those who don't, and 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.160 to create an outsider status through language. 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.319 Yeah, absolutely, And I really like the all Wel comparison 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.480 because the Ministry of Truth is obviously one of the 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:37.320 reasons this book is called the Ministry of Time is 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.000 because I was thinking about that. It's never actually called 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:41.960 the Ministry of Time in the book. It is just 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:42.760 the title of the book. 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.719 Espe they will play it against Sam thinks they've heard it. 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:47.960 It's not that they haven't heard it. They haven't heard it. 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:53.360 So how then do you build a protagonist as you 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:58.719 have with the Bridge, who is part of that system? 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.440 How do you find the human elements of a character 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.760 who chooses to speak and chooses to kind of live 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.720 in a system that kind of sends off the corners 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:09.559 of that humanity. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.000 She was such an interesting character to develop because when 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.200 I first started writing the book, she was nobody. She 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.880 was nothing, She was just a cipher. And in fact, 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.520 the whole first version of the book was written in 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:23.319 the second person, so that my friends who were reading it, 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.520 it was just as if they were they were experiencing 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.200 this funny game about living with a polar explorer from 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.960 nineteenth century. First of all, my agent said, I'm begging 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:35.679 you not to write a book in the second person. 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:36.080 I can't. 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.959 I'm not coward to sell Your agent's a coward. I'm 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:40.040 going to say it right now. 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:46.600 Chris, if you're listening, please don't fire me. But he 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.439 also pointed out that like a love story where one 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:52.319 half of the love story is just a nothingness, and 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.800 a story about complicity where one half of that is 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.880 just nothing, it's just a blank space. It's just not 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.160 very satisfying. So when I started to write her, I 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.920 started to think about what in her past would mean 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.679 that First of all, she's attracted to the idea of 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.040 Victorian man, which is very separate to falling in love 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.600 with the person Graham Gore. He is a person, he's like, 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.240 you know, he's a full human being. But attracted to 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.840 the idea of this Victorian hero, this dashing Victorian explorer. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:27.400 And then what in her background would make her interested 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:32.280 in both afraid of and attracted to the kind of 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.960 control the ministry promises. And I often use the word 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.200 control rather than power, because I don't think it's so 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.720 much that she wants to wield power as she wants 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:41.760 to be in control. She wants to be in control 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:43.200 of a narrative. She wants to be in control of 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.960 the way the language that about her is used, and 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.960 in control of any given situation that she enters. So 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.480 when I was writing her, and I was thinking about 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.320 the fact that Graham Gore is entering a world where 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.160 the British Empire has collapsed, and that was for him 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.960 his kind of driving force. It's a background, that's all. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.200 It's not worth acknowledging because it was just it would 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.160 have just been over the Navy like a tea cozy. 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.000 I thought maybe it would be interesting for her to 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.559 be British Bermese or British Indian, someone who has family 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:17.319 who were formerly colonized subjects and was a mixed race, 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.040 white passing person as I am, and therefore has like 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:24.440 a complicated relationship both to how they're perceived, how they're 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.680 talked about, and how they might be received by structural power. 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.719 And then I thought this, I'm just being really disingenerous. 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.680 I'm just getting in my own way here. I'm British Cambodian. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.560 I know that's not like a former British imperial colony. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.880 It's a French was part of the French Empire. But 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.640 it just seems like I am trying to make things 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:45.760 difficult for myself when I know what I could write 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.680 well is a British Cambodian person. 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.560 Do you think that trying to make things difficult for 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:57.600 yourself was about assuring a raid that projected autobiographical angst 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:01.840 or kind of personal storytelling, and it deliberately loathe to 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:03.600 open the door to that kind of reading. 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.120 That is exactly exactly why I was getting in my 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:07.600 own way like that, because yeah, I didn't want the 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.840 bridge to be She obviously isn't me. I've never alas, 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:11.880 I've never lived with her. 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.600 I was going to say, the element of wish fulfillment 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.200 means that as soon as the bridge is rades you 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.280 at all, it's like, oh, well, this is just a 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:20.200 personal fantasy. 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.720 This is just a personal fantasy where I get to 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.200 be complicit with the British cum which I love doing. Obviously, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:27.280 we all love doing. 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.320 It as sacred drain. We're a Straylan's that's. 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:29.679 All we live. 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.679 Yeah, I was. I was really really resistant to that. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.360 And over the course of the like the editing the 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.600 book because of what it was published, was I think 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.679 draft nine of all the edits, there was putting things 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.920 in about Cambodia, taking things out, working out what of 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:49.720 my family story I wanted to draw on what I 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:54.680 really didn't what should be completely fictionalized. My mother occasionally says, 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.640 you know, it didn't happen to me like this. It's like, yes, 0:13:57.679 --> 0:13:59.840 I know, it happened to like this to a fictional character. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:00.960 This isn't you. 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.719 After the break Callayne chairs the audience she writes for 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.320 and explains why Terry Pratchett is so important to both 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.560 her reading and her writing life. 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:14.959 We'll be right back. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.200 I read another interview with you where you mentioned that 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.520 one of the talkings to you got from your editor 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.960 was that you needed to take yourself, you needed to 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.680 take the work more seriously. I want to know what 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.840 that is and what that lack of seriousness was. Was 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:45.720 it a confidence thing or was it a defense mechanism 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.320 that as long as you were playing on the page 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.680 the stakes were lower. As long as you were trying 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.200 to do something serious there was something at risk. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.560 This is such a good question. It's something that I've 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.600 been asking myself quite a lot over the course of 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:00.840 you know, I'm here for the Melbourne It's Festival, the 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.800 Sydney Writers Festival, the Opening Writer's Festival. You know, I 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.480 go up on stage in front of all these people 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.520 who I've been seeing much bigger audiences than I've ever 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:10.880 had in the UK, and I talk as if I 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.560 shouldn't be there, or I'm slightly embarrassed to be there, 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.360 and my imposter syndrome is just like coming out of 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.720 my ears. And each time I do it, I think, 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:20.680 I don't know why I keep doing this. It doesn't 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:25.240 make people like me more. It's actually very unnecessary, but 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.440 I can't stop doing it at the moment, and I 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:29.880 keep on trying to pull it back. It was the 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.160 same with the book that I was insistent, partly because 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:34.760 it came out of such a place of joy and 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:39.840 a kind of playfulness, and I was writing a playful 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.200 thing that became serious for friends who I didn't feel 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.320 would tell me that what I was doing was cringe 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.160 and silly to take this game seriously and to start 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.320 thinking more seriously about what the stakes were. As soon 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.560 as I started to professionalize, what was that a game 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.000 just for friends again, I had that immediate instinct like, Oh, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.360 someone's going to find this a bit silly. Someone's going 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.560 to think fantasy wish performent, this is really boring, this 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.480 is silly. I don't need to hear what this woman 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:13.400 wants to do with this frozen dead guy. But each 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.240 time that I kind of ran across that in me mentally, 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.880 I was being received by people who were interested, who 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:21.880 were interested in the work, who were interested in how 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:22.560 it might develop. 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.160 Well's I mean, That's why I fixate on the You 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.400 described the ways in which this book's origins were a 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.240 shared game with friends, kind of shared pursued, and so 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.360 those readers weren't an abstract group of readers or of 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:41.080 faceless readers. There were people you knew, who, presumably you 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:42.600 were trying to delight and amuse. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.520 That's the only thing I want. I wanted them to 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.320 hoot and holler. That was my entire intention for the 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:47.880 first draft. 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.800 Doesn't seem like you've unlocked something slightly important. I think 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:56.200 from a ridally perspective, is about the reality of that reader, 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.120 rather than the abstraction of that reader. 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.480 Yeah, the abstraction of the reader who might receive this 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.480 well or might receive this badly, rather than the friend 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.439 who is going to read me in good faith and 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.160 trusting me. I had an interesting conversation with Tory Peters, 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:13.119 author of stag Dance and De Transition Baby. I was 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:14.879 talking about my second book, which I've panned in and 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.840 which has been quite a painful process, and which has 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:21.080 received quite severe notes as severe as a you know, 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.440 no editor is ever going to tell there are authors 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.920 that they're an idiot and that nothing they've written is worthwhile. 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.880 But it has had to have its publication date moved 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.720 so that I can do edits. But I was saying, 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:34.560 you know, it's just been I was doing it again. 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.560 They're like, oh, it's terrible. I'm just a very silly person. 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.240 And she said, from what I understand, you wrote the 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.560 first book for friends, and now it sounds like you've 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.679 been trying to write the second book to please this 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.159 abstract idea of the follow up reader for ministry. I 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:50.480 think you need to go back and write it for 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.960 friends again. And it's sort of ridiculous if it hadn't 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:55.680 occurred to me to just think of it like that, 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:57.720 Because it's true. I think I need to go back 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.359 to just thinking about the maybe five people who I 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.720 would show it to in the first place, rather than 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.320 the people who may or may not be disappointed by 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:06.200 a second book. 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.400 Now, arguably the most scandalous thing you've done in Ministry 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.640 of time is you've written a book where you've made 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:18.439 smoking sexy again. Ah, Like, decades of people being right, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.639 no it's not sexy, it's not cool, you shouldn't do it. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.680 And then you're like, Okay, so I've got this charming. 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:28.560 Arctic explorer who is just relentlessly smoking and it's kind. 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.160 Of hat Also, I wrote it during so in twenty 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:32.600 twinty one, where you know, we were still more or 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.639 less in lockdown in the UK, and I, yeah, I 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.600 really wanted a cigarette. It's one of those fascinating things 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.240 that is both terrible and might kill you. And there's 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.040 no such thing as like you can't have a neutral 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.280 amount of nicotine. You gotta have a neutral amount of 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.680 tar in your lungs. Also, it's great if you are 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.760 at a party and you know, no one really smokes 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:53.760 indoors anymore, if you just want to be like, I've 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:55.240 got to go outside and have a cigarette and then 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:56.880 you don't have to talk to people for the length 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:58.840 of the cigarette except for other people in the smoking 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:00.800 area who are your kindred spirits. 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.320 Yeah, I feel like we've really broken important ground on 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:08.359 this podcast. Absolutely, But it does, Like as much as 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.960 that's a very funny, very specific thing, it does get 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.879 to the heart of something I really love in this 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.960 book that is very deliberate which is thinking about different 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.000 social moras in different times and the ways in which 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.600 they land so differently. It's one thing to think of 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:30.120 an idealized Victorian hero who's a particular kind of stoic 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:32.920 and kind of soulful and all these things at once, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.120 but then to think about the politics of the day 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.399 and the way they probably played out, and the assumptions 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:44.399 and the baseline chauvinism and racism and unthinking bigotry that 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.479 is bolted on. How important was it to you that 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.480 you weren't actively ahistorical. 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.440 It was so important. It's actually quite funny to remember 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.840 how important it was to me, and how deranged I 0:19:57.920 --> 0:19:59.960 became desperately trying to imagine what it would have been 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.200