WEBVTT - Hannah Mouncey's hard fight for inclusion 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:10.000 I still haven't been given a reason. I've been told 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:14.120 by people who were close to it that the equal concern, 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.640 or even a bigger concern to that was the afl 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:22.440 W is a year old. We don't want this sideshow 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:23.239 destroying it. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:25.520 I'm John Ralph and I'm Glenn MacFarlane. 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.760 Welcome to Sacked, a podcast that explores what really happens 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.320 when the X falls in the AFL world. Will take 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:33.040 you behind the scenes with some of the biggest names 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:35.479 in football and find out how they found out their 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.200 time was up and who pulled the trigger. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.280 Hannah Mouncie never asked to be the spokesperson for transgender 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.479 inclusion in professional sport, but when the former Australian handball 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:51.479 rep burst onto twenty seventeen AFL W draft radars, that 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.120 was what she became. But while Mountcy became frustrated and 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.680 eventually disillusioned by the changing position of the AFL, she 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.720 is hopeful that her profile can have a positive impact 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:03.720 as an advocate for trans rights. 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.160 Hannah Mouncie, Australian women's and men's handle star, former vfl 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.319 W player, seen on sixty Minutes. But more to the point, 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:13.880 open mic welcome to the SAC podcast. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:16.520 Hey guys, how are you doing? Hey? 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.080 You won't meet to middle aged men, probably less equipped 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:21.760 to tackle all these issues, but we'll do it with 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.920 an open heart and really interested in your story at 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.520 a time when trans rights have become a political footy 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:28.360 across the world. 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.240 Yeah, why are you so keen to keep advocating for transisues? 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.080 Look, I think as much as anything, there's no interest 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.080 like self interest, So that's probably one good reason. But 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:46.200 I think it's something that it's funny. Over time, usually 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.320 things move forward, but instead we're actually seeing things go 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.920 backwards a really long way. And I even look, you know, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.280 seven or eight years ago, the conversations that were being 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.680 had around trans people, they are a lot more progressive 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.160 than they are now, and especially laws and things like 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.960 that around the world too. And this is outside sport obviously, 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.480 but there's a sporting element to it. But places like 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.320 you know, the UK, especially in the US, you know, 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:15.520 there's a lot of you know, issues around access to healthcare, 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:17.920 where ten years ago there was no issues, and they're 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.520 now off no scientific basis whatsoever. It's more ideological. There's 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.680 a lot of bands coming in and restrictions to healthcare 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.120 and stuff like that, which actually does a lot of 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:29.839 harm to a lot of people. So I think it's 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.880 just something where too, there's a very vocal minority who 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.520 have a very big platform, and they're the ones whose 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.160 voices are often heard, and the people who are affected 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.520 by it generally don't actually get to have a say. 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:44.840 So I figure, if I've got a little bit of 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:49.440 a platform, then it's worth saying something and just keeping 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.520 the other side of the conversation out there. 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.240 I think it must be incredibly hard that situation. Like 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.840 I think it was almost a decade ago that you 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.880 decided to transition, and like, as you said, now it's 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.799 comple It's gone the other way, hasn't it. And how 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.480 does that affect you know, not just yourself, but so 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.400 many other people in similar situations. 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.320 Yeah, it's a strange one because no one even a 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:19.160 decade ago, like very few people knew what transgender meant. 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:21.920 It wasn't something that was out there in the conversation 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.400 really until Caitlyn Jenner went through her transition. That was 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.440 the first time anyone got real exposure to it in 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.160 the mainstream, I think, and initially there was a real 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.440 surgeon I guess support for trans people, and especially seeing 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.400 her story. I think that was put out there, and 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:40.880 you know, it was the Vanity fair cover and all 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:42.960 that sort of thing, and that was the first time 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.120 a lot of people had actually heard of trans people, 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.760 you know, I know that growing up, I didn't I 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.440 didn't know the term transgender until I was in my twenties, 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.720 you know, and I'm only thirty five, you know, like, 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.160 it's not that long ago where people had no idea 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.520 what this was, you know, and the only time you 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.560 would see something that was remotely similar to even touching on, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:13.120 you know, trans issues was on Jerry Springer, and usually 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.680 that was not particularly flattering, and it also wasn't trans people. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.040 It was you know, it was the freak show coming 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:26.039 out and they were trying to profit off people who, yeah, 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.680 we're really quite troubled. But that you know, you had 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:31.320 all sorts of people going on there and all sorts 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.640 of things, and that was all people saw. So it's 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.240 been very quick to come to prominence. There was a 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.960 small time where things were really progressive and actually things 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:43.840 are looking quite positive, and then I think we saw 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:46.400 around the world, you know, the gay marriage vote was 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:48.600 largely lost by those who were opposing it, and they 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.800 needed someone else to beat up on, and that was us. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:55.680 So it's then gone backwards very very quickly. And the 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.359 impact it has, I mean, I think on people like 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.360 me who have been through it and have been through 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.880 you know, accessing health care and things like that. You know, 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.720 that's largely in the past for me, so it doesn't 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.599 affect me too much, but I also know what it's 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.440 like on the other side of it, where you're trying 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.719 to navigate who you are. You're trying you know, you're terrified, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.560 absolutely terrified of rejection and what people will think of you, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.400 and the self esteem issues too, like you know, you're 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.520 brought up thinking that this isn't normal, and so you know, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:32.719 you think you're a monster really and like you're a 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.240 freak and this and that, and the conversations being had 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.359 in the media only serve to propagate that. Now, So 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.839 if you're a young trans person or a trans person 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.800 of any age and you're hearing the conversations now, you 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.919 know that can only lead to people feeling more depressed, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.880 more anxious, more isolated, with drawing more and doing a 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.039 lot of damage. So and look, that's not to say 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.680 that people who have transitioned and don't have those barriers 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:04.960 to help care are immune to it. But my thoughts 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.920 immediately go to the people who are where I was, 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.000 you know, up until the age of twenty five, trying 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:13.679 to figure out who they are and trying to actually 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:14.640 be comfortable with it. 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:17.560 We'll go to your story a bit, and you know 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.840 the AFEL draft and obviously you're handball aspirations. But what 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.440 is it do you think that trans people are being 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.320 banned from elite sport for? Is it a safety concern, 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:28.880 is it a cultural concern? 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:30.400 Or is it a fairness thing? 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.400 Given that you know athletes are trans, athletes are going 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.000 to start dominating world sport. 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.680 Yeah, I think there's a combination. I think largely it's ideological. 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.640 I think largely there's people who don't want trans people 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.479 in sport, don't like trans people in society because it 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.920 isn't just a sport issue and sport is just one 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.400 of the places where they're being affected. And also, I 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:57.640 think there's a hell of a lot of misinformation out there. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.960 You know, there's a lot of misinformation out there around 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.080 the way hormone treatment affects your body. There's all sorts 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:10.200 of misinformation around studies that have been done showing you know, 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:14.240 what happens to your body during transition and performance. And 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.480 you know a lot of people don't understand that because 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.960 they're not given the information. And that's fair enough. You know, 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:20.840 if you're not given the information, you can't be expect 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.400 to try understand it. But I think it's just part 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.720 of a broader move against trans people. And I think 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:28.120 if you look at the world, it's going more and 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.440 more to the right, and you know, that's just the 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.400 way the world's going. So I think, you know, there 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.560 is obviously a fairness element to it, and I'm a 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.520 big believer in that there has to be restrictions there. 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.480 I've always advocated for that, never said they shouldn't. But 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:45.120 I think where the IOC is now, where they're going. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.239 You know, you're twelve to twenty four months of hormone treatment. 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.840 That's pretty spot on. And I say that as someone 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.400 who's been through it. You know, I can tell you 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:57.880 like when I started hormone treatment, that was a month 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.240 after we got back from Qatar and we be over 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.400 there trying to qualify for the Olympics for Rio, and 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:05.440 so as a result, we've done some testing before that, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:07.920 and you know, before we left. So this is in 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:13.280 the start of November of twenty fifteen. You know I squatted, yeah, 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.160 in twenty fifteen. Sorry, yeah, I'd squatted two hundred kilos, 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.960 benched one fifty and cleaned one forty, which are pretty 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.720 big numbers. You know, they're not small. But within twelve 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.520 months pretty much everything had dropped off by about two 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.080 thirds across the board. So I know that, you know, 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.040 my squad had dropped down to about sixty or sixty five, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.240 maybe my bench had dropped to fifty. I know that 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.440 because I wasn't doing two plates anymore. And that was 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:44.520 a real shock, you know, because yeah, and then my 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.120 clean god, that was even worse, Like that was like 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.160 fifty five or something. It was a huge drop. And 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:52.400 I don't think people understand that. And that's because you 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:57.600 remove testosterone from the body and that has an impact 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.520 across the board. You know, you lose a lot of 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:05.520 weight very quickly. You know, I was pretty built and 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.640 I lost twenty kilos rapidly. 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.160 Where you're at right now, so you remember of the 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:15.160 women's handball team, the Australian women's handble team, it could 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.959 qualify for the LA Olympics, but you might be banned 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.319 from entering America given a potential Trump ban now as 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:25.600 in twenty thirty two. If you're still around, which you'd 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.240 hope to be for the Brisbane Olympics, Australia will have 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.320 a team in that competition given a course with the 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.160 host nation, but potentially you might be banned as a 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:39.800 transgender athlete given the IOC is working towards more concrete bands. 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:41.719 Is that the right way to sum it up. 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.760 Yeah, it seems like that's where they're going at the moment. 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.120 Is they're looking at probably a blanket ban across the board, 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.520 and not just for trans athletes but into sex athletes 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.679 or I shouldn't say total banned, but they'll be forced 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.280 to It seems like they'll be forced to compete in 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.439 the men's competition. But yeah, like I'm I'm playing for 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.040 Australia at the moment. I've played god for the women's 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.199 tea for the last eight years now, seven or eight 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:10.440 years now and had no issues really at all, especially 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.520 from overseas. You know, I've been very open about it 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.160 with the International Federation because obviously have to be, and 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:20.480 they've been really fantastic. You know, the Asian Handball Federation 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.120 no issues at all whenever we compete in Asia at 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.880 Asian Championships and stuff like that. So they've had no issues, 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.679 and none of the teams we've played against in those 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.040 competitions have ever raised any concerns or issues at all. 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:36.000 It's actually the opposite I've had and from countries where 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:41.520 people might you know, profile people as being more conservative 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.600 and having issues with trans people, you know, like I've 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.280 had such positive responses from you know, some of the 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.880 girls from Iran and Kazakhstan and who's Bekistan, and. 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.160 So I see potentially within months and there's a working 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.400 party there, you could be banned from competing in the 0:10:58.040 --> 0:10:59.160 in the Olympics. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:04.160 But also just in the national petition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:05.800 I expect to probably be banned by the end of 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.440 the year, if I'm honest. Yeah, yeah, I think so. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.840 But it also gives us time to you know, if 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.160 there's because I'm sure not. I'm sure there'll be challenges 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.320 coming for it, like it'll it's there, just will be. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:22.520 And I also could be wrong on that. You know, 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:24.520 they could come back and surprise us. But I think 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:27.880 that the issue that we've got if they do go 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:33.120 down the path of blanket bands is you know, it's 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:38.040 banning people for what is essentially a medical issue. So 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:40.960 I think one of the biggest issues is we need 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.800 to reframe how we look at trans people. You know, 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:50.480 the general Jerry Springer explanation was, this is a woman 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.480 or a man trapped in a man's or a woman's body, 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.240 and they're trying to fix it. But and they're choosing 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:59.319 to change gender. But the way we need to understand 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.640 it is, and the way I explained to it is, 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.120 you know, you've got congenital abnormalities, cleft palettes, people with 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.000 holes in their heart, things like that. This is no different. 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:13.760 What you've got is people who are born with brain 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.920 of male female doesn't matter, and they're literally just born 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.160 with the wrong genitals. The only problem is they can't 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.480 tell you that when they're born. Whereas you can pick 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.160 up a cleft palate, you can pick up all that 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.960 sort of stuff, and it's the only one where you 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.040 limit access to healthcare until they're older and fair enough, like, 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.000 that's not an issue. I'm not complaining about that. But 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:37.040 you know, there's been studies done, you know, MRIs all 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.800 sorts of things where they're actually mapping, you know, trans 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.400 women's brains, trans men's brains and comparing it to cisgender, 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.800 which is basically just people who are you know, the 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.280 gender they are assigned at birth, so if they're male 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.320 or their male, If the're female, they're female. And what they're 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.320 finding is trans women's brains line up almost exactly in 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.199 terms of mapping and all that sort of thing as 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:03.000 cisgender males brains, and the same for trans men and 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.560 cisgender men and not just it. And I'm not super 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.079 into this, but I was looking at it last night. 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:11.280 It's not just the way the brain works and the 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:12.880 mapping and all that sort of stuff. It's actually the 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.640 thickness of certain areas of the brain and things like 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.000 that as well. So this is not a choice that 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.880 people are making. This is actually a biological you know, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:28.120 congenital abnormality, birth defect in I guess the old term 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.959 that just needs to be corrected like anything else. You know, 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:33.560 if someone had a cleft palate or a hole in 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.120 their heart, you'd look to fix it. And I guess 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.120 the only problem with this is, you know, this is 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.920 one that makes you grow differently, and it's not the 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.640 person's fault. And I think the problem we're looking at 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.839 with this if they go down blanket bands is you're 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:53.280 banning someone from competing who's done nothing wrong. This is 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.600 no fault to their own. They haven't done anything to 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.280 cheat the system. Whereas then if I look at it 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.600 in terms if they're worried about a performance advantage people 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.760 who have willingly gone out and doped and been found 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.400 guilty of doping. They're allowed to compete again after four years, 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:14.360 So you're automatically saying that, And if I look at 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.680 the band for doping, it's four years, it used to 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.640 be two now in that there's obviously an element that's 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.280 a punishment. And if they're allowing them to compete after 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.080 four years, I can only assume that that means they 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.880 feel that any advantage they got from doping has now 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.960 gone and it's back to a level playing field after 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.840 four years. So you know, if you say that, you 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:40.560 know they may be bumped it up by a year 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.880 or two as an extra punishment to deter people. If 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.760 they're still looking at banning people for doping and allowing 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:51.120 them to compete after four years, Automatically, that tells me 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.080 if you're looking at putting restrictions on trans people, it 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.320 has to be less than four years because they've actually 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.920 done nothing wrong, whereas people who are doped have gone 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:00.400 out of their way to cheat this system. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:03.840 Tell us a bit about your personal journey, so handball. 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.840 From two thousand and nine onwards, you played twenty two 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:11.160 games with the Australian men's team, pardon me, represented Australia 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.000 in the thirteen Mensamble Championships. And I think it's around 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:16.920 that time that you confess to your mum or telling 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.920 your mum, you know, through Facebook message during a tiament 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:21.120 where you're having panic attacks. 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.880 Mum, this is who I am. Tell us about. 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.560 Yeah, it was a bit later. So yeah, So I 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.440 was really lucky. Like I grew up, I saw first 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.760 saw handball at Sydney Olympics when I was eleven and 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.120 absolutely loved it, absolutely loved it. And I was actually 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:39.720 really lucky. Later on I got to play against some 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:41.640 of those players that we watched at those Olympics, which 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:46.520 was very cool. But I'd always been very into sport, 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:51.200 and you know, I'm very much typical story of trans 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.080 people where I knew it was different from a very 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:54.960 very young age but. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.720 How young would you say? How young? 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:05.760 Oh? Oh, four five six around then? From a very 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:10.200 young age. But you also know, you know, like, oh, okay, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.760 boys or boys, girls and girls, let's not cross that. 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.200 You know like that, you know, it's it's that whole 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.960 thing that you grow up with. And so I was 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:21.800 always very in the sport, and I sort of threw 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.680 myself into that, I think, even again from a really 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:26.280 young age, to sort of run away from it and 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.600 build a lot of self esteem because I didn't, you know, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.520 knowing that I was that different. I didn't feel particularly 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.440 great about myself and I couldn't put into words what 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.640 it was like. I mean, I definitely could, but I 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.760 didn't know what trans people were until I was in 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:41.320 my twenties. 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:43.640 So what would you what would you have said if 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:44.720 you had to put it into words? 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:46.760 Well, I remember thinking I was like, I'm a girl, 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.400 but I also knew that was impossible. Yeah, so you're 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.000 not going to say anything because you think people think 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:53.960 you're crazy, and you just be. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.200 Told you don't tell anyone. You're just dealing with this 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:57.800 in your own mind for a lot. 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.400 Yeah, And and so I really threw myself into sport. 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.680 I think to build a lot of self esteem and 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:09.280 myself because that's where I got all of it. And so, 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.720 you know, I grew up playing cricket and we lived 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.480 in Sydney. I had to play soccer because I wanted 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.159 to play rugby league, but mum hates it. So SU 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.639 grew up in Melbourne, so she's AFL and so but 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:20.879 then we moved to Augury when I was ten or eleven, 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.520 and yeah, I was eleven, and we started playing foot 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.520 I started playing football, and so I wasn't particularly great 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.040 at football to begin with because I was so far 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.879 behind everyone else. But cricket was my thing, and so 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.600 I always threw myself into that and then over time 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.000 I got a lot better at football. But those first 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:38.439 couple of years I was pretty bad. And then but 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:39.879 by the time I got to under eight ams and 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:41.720 playing seniors and stuff, I was I was pretty sweet. 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:47.879 But but yeah, so I threw myself into that and 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.440 it was just this giant secret that I just had 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:56.480 to hide, and you know, it was terrified anyone would 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:02.880 find out. Ever, so moved to Canberra when I was eighteen. 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:03.959 So I didn't know what I wanted to do when 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.200 I finished school and so as it turns out, I 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.080 actually got a job working for the AFL, which the 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.840 irony is not lost, but exactly. Yeah, care irony is 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.680 not lost, but yeah. So I was up here and 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.119 it was it's just sort of fate, you know. I 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.800 always wanted to play handball as a kid. But we 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.760 moved to Aubrey like two months after the Olympics, and 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:26.960 my mum actually was working on the security for the game. 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.000 She was in the Army, so she was she was 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:30.879 involved in that, and she wanted to get out of 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:35.480 Sydney once the Olympics finish. So I couldn't play the 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.320 handball because there's not much in Australia and even less, 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.520 you know, in the country than in the city. There's none. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:42.800 So I moved to Canberra and I was eighteen. I 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.000 was working for the AFL and the gym I was 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:50.280 going to had a basketball stadium attached to it and 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.400 there was a team training there. And I'd actually seen 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.159 something in the Cambra Times as well. But I did 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.640 an article on a guy who's a really good maid 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.119 of mine and my first coach and first national team coach, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.679 Tape is an Olympian in Sydney, and I remember just 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:04.800 one day I was at the gym and I just 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.199 sort of went next door and said, what is it like, 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.200 I can't play? And I got really really lucky because 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:14.560 I was nineteen, so I was pretty fit, young, keen, 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:16.480 all that sort of stuff, and I walked into the 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.960 best environment I possibly could have. Like everyone like, so 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.240 Tape was coaching the national team at that point and 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.520 was also coaching the Canberra team that was playing in 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.240 the New South Wales League up in Sydney, and every 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.720 single Australian player that we had either played for Australia 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.720 or went on to play for Australia. And you know, 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:38.719 we had a bunch of Europeans there who obviously went 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.000 citizens and couldn't play, but were definitely good enough. So 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.240 you know, like in that environment, like you just can't 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.240 help but learn and pick it up. And it's really 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.879 simple swim, Like if you can't go, you just and 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.800 keep up, you just fall by the wayside. So I 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:56.040 was really lucky. So I was just like a sponge. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:59.960 And yeah, like Tape, luckily was still national team coach 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:01.840 for a number of years and he was the one 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:03.600 who brought me into the national team. So I first 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:07.840 played for Australia in twenty twelve, and then yeah, I 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:12.520 played well my first World Championships twenty thirteen, which was, 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.359 you know, four years after I first started playing, like 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:20.000 it was it's ridiculous, like it's ridiculous, and then you know, 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:25.080 I yeah, and I loved it. It was great and 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.280 it sounds really strange. But the place I feel most 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:31.680 at home is in the big events, Like I think 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.199 it's just one of those things like I just I 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:36.440 feel at home there, like it's where I feel most comfortable. 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.439 And I definitely choked the first game we played, I 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:44.040 played against Hungary, but it was it was a really 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.040 good learning curve because I went, I got myself too 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:47.800 amped up for it, and I went, what do I 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.919 need to do? So I actually the complete opfice. I 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.520 tried to put myself asleep the next day, listened to 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.320 Elton John all day before the game, like music I 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.760 could or like the most chill music IU as my 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.000 pup music to coming down, and that's what I've done 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.880 ever since, and candle in the wind, go for it. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:11.159