Speaker 1: I still haven't been given a reason. I've been told
Speaker 1: by people who were close to it that the equal concern,
Speaker 1: or even a bigger concern to that was the afl
Speaker 1: W is a year old. We don't want this sideshow
Speaker 1: destroying it.
Speaker 2: I'm John Ralph and I'm Glenn MacFarlane.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Sacked, a podcast that explores what really happens
Speaker 3: when the X falls in the AFL world. Will take
Speaker 3: you behind the scenes with some of the biggest names
Speaker 3: in football and find out how they found out their
Speaker 3: time was up and who pulled the trigger.
Speaker 4: Hannah Mouncie never asked to be the spokesperson for transgender
Speaker 4: inclusion in professional sport, but when the former Australian handball
Speaker 4: rep burst onto twenty seventeen AFL W draft radars, that
Speaker 4: was what she became. But while Mountcy became frustrated and
Speaker 4: eventually disillusioned by the changing position of the AFL, she
Speaker 4: is hopeful that her profile can have a positive impact
Speaker 4: as an advocate for trans rights.
Speaker 3: Hannah Mouncie, Australian women's and men's handle star, former vfl
Speaker 3: W player, seen on sixty Minutes. But more to the point,
Speaker 3: open mic welcome to the SAC podcast.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, how are you doing? Hey?
Speaker 3: You won't meet to middle aged men, probably less equipped
Speaker 3: to tackle all these issues, but we'll do it with
Speaker 3: an open heart and really interested in your story at
Speaker 3: a time when trans rights have become a political footy
Speaker 3: across the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why are you so keen to keep advocating for transisues?
Speaker 1: Look, I think as much as anything, there's no interest
Speaker 1: like self interest, So that's probably one good reason. But
Speaker 1: I think it's something that it's funny. Over time, usually
Speaker 1: things move forward, but instead we're actually seeing things go
Speaker 1: backwards a really long way. And I even look, you know,
Speaker 1: seven or eight years ago, the conversations that were being
Speaker 1: had around trans people, they are a lot more progressive
Speaker 1: than they are now, and especially laws and things like
Speaker 1: that around the world too. And this is outside sport obviously,
Speaker 1: but there's a sporting element to it. But places like
Speaker 1: you know, the UK, especially in the US, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of you know, issues around access to healthcare,
Speaker 1: where ten years ago there was no issues, and they're
Speaker 1: now off no scientific basis whatsoever. It's more ideological. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of bands coming in and restrictions to healthcare
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, which actually does a lot of
Speaker 1: harm to a lot of people. So I think it's
Speaker 1: just something where too, there's a very vocal minority who
Speaker 1: have a very big platform, and they're the ones whose
Speaker 1: voices are often heard, and the people who are affected
Speaker 1: by it generally don't actually get to have a say.
Speaker 1: So I figure, if I've got a little bit of
Speaker 1: a platform, then it's worth saying something and just keeping
Speaker 1: the other side of the conversation out there.
Speaker 4: I think it must be incredibly hard that situation. Like
Speaker 4: I think it was almost a decade ago that you
Speaker 4: decided to transition, and like, as you said, now it's
Speaker 4: comple It's gone the other way, hasn't it. And how
Speaker 4: does that affect you know, not just yourself, but so
Speaker 4: many other people in similar situations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a strange one because no one even a
Speaker 1: decade ago, like very few people knew what transgender meant.
Speaker 1: It wasn't something that was out there in the conversation
Speaker 1: really until Caitlyn Jenner went through her transition. That was
Speaker 1: the first time anyone got real exposure to it in
Speaker 1: the mainstream, I think, and initially there was a real
Speaker 1: surgeon I guess support for trans people, and especially seeing
Speaker 1: her story. I think that was put out there, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was the Vanity fair cover and all
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and that was the first time
Speaker 1: a lot of people had actually heard of trans people,
Speaker 1: you know, I know that growing up, I didn't I
Speaker 1: didn't know the term transgender until I was in my twenties,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm only thirty five, you know, like,
Speaker 1: it's not that long ago where people had no idea
Speaker 1: what this was, you know, and the only time you
Speaker 1: would see something that was remotely similar to even touching on,
Speaker 1: you know, trans issues was on Jerry Springer, and usually
Speaker 1: that was not particularly flattering, and it also wasn't trans people.
Speaker 1: It was you know, it was the freak show coming
Speaker 1: out and they were trying to profit off people who, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're really quite troubled. But that you know, you had
Speaker 1: all sorts of people going on there and all sorts
Speaker 1: of things, and that was all people saw. So it's
Speaker 1: been very quick to come to prominence. There was a
Speaker 1: small time where things were really progressive and actually things
Speaker 1: are looking quite positive, and then I think we saw
Speaker 1: around the world, you know, the gay marriage vote was
Speaker 1: largely lost by those who were opposing it, and they
Speaker 1: needed someone else to beat up on, and that was us.
Speaker 1: So it's then gone backwards very very quickly. And the
Speaker 1: impact it has, I mean, I think on people like
Speaker 1: me who have been through it and have been through
Speaker 1: you know, accessing health care and things like that. You know,
Speaker 1: that's largely in the past for me, so it doesn't
Speaker 1: affect me too much, but I also know what it's
Speaker 1: like on the other side of it, where you're trying
Speaker 1: to navigate who you are. You're trying you know, you're terrified,
Speaker 1: absolutely terrified of rejection and what people will think of you,
Speaker 1: and the self esteem issues too, like you know, you're
Speaker 1: brought up thinking that this isn't normal, and so you know,
Speaker 1: you think you're a monster really and like you're a
Speaker 1: freak and this and that, and the conversations being had
Speaker 1: in the media only serve to propagate that. Now, So
Speaker 1: if you're a young trans person or a trans person
Speaker 1: of any age and you're hearing the conversations now, you
Speaker 1: know that can only lead to people feeling more depressed,
Speaker 1: more anxious, more isolated, with drawing more and doing a
Speaker 1: lot of damage. So and look, that's not to say
Speaker 1: that people who have transitioned and don't have those barriers
Speaker 1: to help care are immune to it. But my thoughts
Speaker 1: immediately go to the people who are where I was,
Speaker 1: you know, up until the age of twenty five, trying
Speaker 1: to figure out who they are and trying to actually
Speaker 1: be comfortable with it.
Speaker 3: We'll go to your story a bit, and you know
Speaker 3: the AFEL draft and obviously you're handball aspirations. But what
Speaker 3: is it do you think that trans people are being
Speaker 3: banned from elite sport for? Is it a safety concern,
Speaker 3: is it a cultural concern?
Speaker 2: Or is it a fairness thing?
Speaker 3: Given that you know athletes are trans, athletes are going
Speaker 3: to start dominating world sport.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a combination. I think largely it's ideological.
Speaker 1: I think largely there's people who don't want trans people
Speaker 1: in sport, don't like trans people in society because it
Speaker 1: isn't just a sport issue and sport is just one
Speaker 1: of the places where they're being affected. And also, I
Speaker 1: think there's a hell of a lot of misinformation out there.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of misinformation out there around
Speaker 1: the way hormone treatment affects your body. There's all sorts
Speaker 1: of misinformation around studies that have been done showing you know,
Speaker 1: what happens to your body during transition and performance. And
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people don't understand that because
Speaker 1: they're not given the information. And that's fair enough. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're not given the information, you can't be expect
Speaker 1: to try understand it. But I think it's just part
Speaker 1: of a broader move against trans people. And I think
Speaker 1: if you look at the world, it's going more and
Speaker 1: more to the right, and you know, that's just the
Speaker 1: way the world's going. So I think, you know, there
Speaker 1: is obviously a fairness element to it, and I'm a
Speaker 1: big believer in that there has to be restrictions there.
Speaker 1: I've always advocated for that, never said they shouldn't. But
Speaker 1: I think where the IOC is now, where they're going.
Speaker 1: You know, you're twelve to twenty four months of hormone treatment.
Speaker 1: That's pretty spot on. And I say that as someone
Speaker 1: who's been through it. You know, I can tell you
Speaker 1: like when I started hormone treatment, that was a month
Speaker 1: after we got back from Qatar and we be over
Speaker 1: there trying to qualify for the Olympics for Rio, and
Speaker 1: so as a result, we've done some testing before that,
Speaker 1: and you know, before we left. So this is in
Speaker 1: the start of November of twenty fifteen. You know I squatted, yeah,
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen. Sorry, yeah, I'd squatted two hundred kilos,
Speaker 1: benched one fifty and cleaned one forty, which are pretty
Speaker 1: big numbers. You know, they're not small. But within twelve
Speaker 1: months pretty much everything had dropped off by about two
Speaker 1: thirds across the board. So I know that, you know,
Speaker 1: my squad had dropped down to about sixty or sixty five,
Speaker 1: maybe my bench had dropped to fifty. I know that
Speaker 1: because I wasn't doing two plates anymore. And that was
Speaker 1: a real shock, you know, because yeah, and then my
Speaker 1: clean god, that was even worse, Like that was like
Speaker 1: fifty five or something. It was a huge drop. And
Speaker 1: I don't think people understand that. And that's because you
Speaker 1: remove testosterone from the body and that has an impact
Speaker 1: across the board. You know, you lose a lot of
Speaker 1: weight very quickly. You know, I was pretty built and
Speaker 1: I lost twenty kilos rapidly.
Speaker 3: Where you're at right now, so you remember of the
Speaker 3: women's handball team, the Australian women's handble team, it could
Speaker 3: qualify for the LA Olympics, but you might be banned
Speaker 3: from entering America given a potential Trump ban now as
Speaker 3: in twenty thirty two. If you're still around, which you'd
Speaker 3: hope to be for the Brisbane Olympics, Australia will have
Speaker 3: a team in that competition given a course with the
Speaker 3: host nation, but potentially you might be banned as a
Speaker 3: transgender athlete given the IOC is working towards more concrete bands.
Speaker 2: Is that the right way to sum it up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like that's where they're going at the moment.
Speaker 1: Is they're looking at probably a blanket ban across the board,
Speaker 1: and not just for trans athletes but into sex athletes
Speaker 1: or I shouldn't say total banned, but they'll be forced
Speaker 1: to It seems like they'll be forced to compete in
Speaker 1: the men's competition. But yeah, like I'm I'm playing for
Speaker 1: Australia at the moment. I've played god for the women's
Speaker 1: tea for the last eight years now, seven or eight
Speaker 1: years now and had no issues really at all, especially
Speaker 1: from overseas. You know, I've been very open about it
Speaker 1: with the International Federation because obviously have to be, and
Speaker 1: they've been really fantastic. You know, the Asian Handball Federation
Speaker 1: no issues at all whenever we compete in Asia at
Speaker 1: Asian Championships and stuff like that. So they've had no issues,
Speaker 1: and none of the teams we've played against in those
Speaker 1: competitions have ever raised any concerns or issues at all.
Speaker 1: It's actually the opposite I've had and from countries where
Speaker 1: people might you know, profile people as being more conservative
Speaker 1: and having issues with trans people, you know, like I've
Speaker 1: had such positive responses from you know, some of the
Speaker 1: girls from Iran and Kazakhstan and who's Bekistan, and.
Speaker 3: So I see potentially within months and there's a working
Speaker 3: party there, you could be banned from competing in the
Speaker 3: in the Olympics.
Speaker 2: But also just in the national petition. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I expect to probably be banned by the end of
Speaker 1: the year, if I'm honest. Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: But it also gives us time to you know, if
Speaker 1: there's because I'm sure not. I'm sure there'll be challenges
Speaker 1: coming for it, like it'll it's there, just will be.
Speaker 1: And I also could be wrong on that. You know,
Speaker 1: they could come back and surprise us. But I think
Speaker 1: that the issue that we've got if they do go
Speaker 1: down the path of blanket bands is you know, it's
Speaker 1: banning people for what is essentially a medical issue. So
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest issues is we need
Speaker 1: to reframe how we look at trans people. You know,
Speaker 1: the general Jerry Springer explanation was, this is a woman
Speaker 1: or a man trapped in a man's or a woman's body,
Speaker 1: and they're trying to fix it. But and they're choosing
Speaker 1: to change gender. But the way we need to understand
Speaker 1: it is, and the way I explained to it is,
Speaker 1: you know, you've got congenital abnormalities, cleft palettes, people with
Speaker 1: holes in their heart, things like that. This is no different.
Speaker 1: What you've got is people who are born with brain
Speaker 1: of male female doesn't matter, and they're literally just born
Speaker 1: with the wrong genitals. The only problem is they can't
Speaker 1: tell you that when they're born. Whereas you can pick
Speaker 1: up a cleft palate, you can pick up all that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, and it's the only one where you
Speaker 1: limit access to healthcare until they're older and fair enough, like,
Speaker 1: that's not an issue. I'm not complaining about that. But
Speaker 1: you know, there's been studies done, you know, MRIs all
Speaker 1: sorts of things where they're actually mapping, you know, trans
Speaker 1: women's brains, trans men's brains and comparing it to cisgender,
Speaker 1: which is basically just people who are you know, the
Speaker 1: gender they are assigned at birth, so if they're male
Speaker 1: or their male, If the're female, they're female. And what they're
Speaker 1: finding is trans women's brains line up almost exactly in
Speaker 1: terms of mapping and all that sort of thing as
Speaker 1: cisgender males brains, and the same for trans men and
Speaker 1: cisgender men and not just it. And I'm not super
Speaker 1: into this, but I was looking at it last night.
Speaker 1: It's not just the way the brain works and the
Speaker 1: mapping and all that sort of stuff. It's actually the
Speaker 1: thickness of certain areas of the brain and things like
Speaker 1: that as well. So this is not a choice that
Speaker 1: people are making. This is actually a biological you know,
Speaker 1: congenital abnormality, birth defect in I guess the old term
Speaker 1: that just needs to be corrected like anything else. You know,
Speaker 1: if someone had a cleft palate or a hole in
Speaker 1: their heart, you'd look to fix it. And I guess
Speaker 1: the only problem with this is, you know, this is
Speaker 1: one that makes you grow differently, and it's not the
Speaker 1: person's fault. And I think the problem we're looking at
Speaker 1: with this if they go down blanket bands is you're
Speaker 1: banning someone from competing who's done nothing wrong. This is
Speaker 1: no fault to their own. They haven't done anything to
Speaker 1: cheat the system. Whereas then if I look at it
Speaker 1: in terms if they're worried about a performance advantage people
Speaker 1: who have willingly gone out and doped and been found
Speaker 1: guilty of doping. They're allowed to compete again after four years,
Speaker 1: So you're automatically saying that, And if I look at
Speaker 1: the band for doping, it's four years, it used to
Speaker 1: be two now in that there's obviously an element that's
Speaker 1: a punishment. And if they're allowing them to compete after
Speaker 1: four years, I can only assume that that means they
Speaker 1: feel that any advantage they got from doping has now
Speaker 1: gone and it's back to a level playing field after
Speaker 1: four years. So you know, if you say that, you
Speaker 1: know they may be bumped it up by a year
Speaker 1: or two as an extra punishment to deter people. If
Speaker 1: they're still looking at banning people for doping and allowing
Speaker 1: them to compete after four years, Automatically, that tells me
Speaker 1: if you're looking at putting restrictions on trans people, it
Speaker 1: has to be less than four years because they've actually
Speaker 1: done nothing wrong, whereas people who are doped have gone
Speaker 1: out of their way to cheat this system.
Speaker 3: Tell us a bit about your personal journey, so handball.
Speaker 3: From two thousand and nine onwards, you played twenty two
Speaker 3: games with the Australian men's team, pardon me, represented Australia
Speaker 3: in the thirteen Mensamble Championships. And I think it's around
Speaker 3: that time that you confess to your mum or telling
Speaker 3: your mum, you know, through Facebook message during a tiament
Speaker 3: where you're having panic attacks.
Speaker 2: Mum, this is who I am. Tell us about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a bit later. So yeah, So I
Speaker 1: was really lucky. Like I grew up, I saw first
Speaker 1: saw handball at Sydney Olympics when I was eleven and
Speaker 1: absolutely loved it, absolutely loved it. And I was actually
Speaker 1: really lucky. Later on I got to play against some
Speaker 1: of those players that we watched at those Olympics, which
Speaker 1: was very cool. But I'd always been very into sport,
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm very much typical story of trans
Speaker 1: people where I knew it was different from a very
Speaker 1: very young age but.
Speaker 2: How young would you say? How young?
Speaker 1: Oh? Oh, four five six around then? From a very
Speaker 1: young age. But you also know, you know, like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: boys or boys, girls and girls, let's not cross that.
Speaker 1: You know like that, you know, it's it's that whole
Speaker 1: thing that you grow up with. And so I was
Speaker 1: always very in the sport, and I sort of threw
Speaker 1: myself into that, I think, even again from a really
Speaker 1: young age, to sort of run away from it and
Speaker 1: build a lot of self esteem because I didn't, you know,
Speaker 1: knowing that I was that different. I didn't feel particularly
Speaker 1: great about myself and I couldn't put into words what
Speaker 1: it was like. I mean, I definitely could, but I
Speaker 1: didn't know what trans people were until I was in
Speaker 1: my twenties.
Speaker 2: So what would you what would you have said if
Speaker 2: you had to put it into words?
Speaker 1: Well, I remember thinking I was like, I'm a girl,
Speaker 1: but I also knew that was impossible. Yeah, so you're
Speaker 1: not going to say anything because you think people think
Speaker 1: you're crazy, and you just be.
Speaker 4: Told you don't tell anyone. You're just dealing with this
Speaker 4: in your own mind for a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and so I really threw myself into sport.
Speaker 1: I think to build a lot of self esteem and
Speaker 1: myself because that's where I got all of it. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up playing cricket and we lived
Speaker 1: in Sydney. I had to play soccer because I wanted
Speaker 1: to play rugby league, but mum hates it. So SU
Speaker 1: grew up in Melbourne, so she's AFL and so but
Speaker 1: then we moved to Augury when I was ten or eleven,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I was eleven, and we started playing foot
Speaker 1: I started playing football, and so I wasn't particularly great
Speaker 1: at football to begin with because I was so far
Speaker 1: behind everyone else. But cricket was my thing, and so
Speaker 1: I always threw myself into that and then over time
Speaker 1: I got a lot better at football. But those first
Speaker 1: couple of years I was pretty bad. And then but
Speaker 1: by the time I got to under eight ams and
Speaker 1: playing seniors and stuff, I was I was pretty sweet.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, so I threw myself into that and
Speaker 1: it was just this giant secret that I just had
Speaker 1: to hide, and you know, it was terrified anyone would
Speaker 1: find out. Ever, so moved to Canberra when I was eighteen.
Speaker 1: So I didn't know what I wanted to do when
Speaker 1: I finished school and so as it turns out, I
Speaker 1: actually got a job working for the AFL, which the
Speaker 1: irony is not lost, but exactly. Yeah, care irony is
Speaker 1: not lost, but yeah. So I was up here and
Speaker 1: it was it's just sort of fate, you know. I
Speaker 1: always wanted to play handball as a kid. But we
Speaker 1: moved to Aubrey like two months after the Olympics, and
Speaker 1: my mum actually was working on the security for the game.
Speaker 1: She was in the Army, so she was she was
Speaker 1: involved in that, and she wanted to get out of
Speaker 1: Sydney once the Olympics finish. So I couldn't play the
Speaker 1: handball because there's not much in Australia and even less,
Speaker 1: you know, in the country than in the city. There's none.
Speaker 1: So I moved to Canberra and I was eighteen. I
Speaker 1: was working for the AFL and the gym I was
Speaker 1: going to had a basketball stadium attached to it and
Speaker 1: there was a team training there. And I'd actually seen
Speaker 1: something in the Cambra Times as well. But I did
Speaker 1: an article on a guy who's a really good maid
Speaker 1: of mine and my first coach and first national team coach,
Speaker 1: Tape is an Olympian in Sydney, and I remember just
Speaker 1: one day I was at the gym and I just
Speaker 1: sort of went next door and said, what is it like,
Speaker 1: I can't play? And I got really really lucky because
Speaker 1: I was nineteen, so I was pretty fit, young, keen,
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, and I walked into the
Speaker 1: best environment I possibly could have. Like everyone like, so
Speaker 1: Tape was coaching the national team at that point and
Speaker 1: was also coaching the Canberra team that was playing in
Speaker 1: the New South Wales League up in Sydney, and every
Speaker 1: single Australian player that we had either played for Australia
Speaker 1: or went on to play for Australia. And you know,
Speaker 1: we had a bunch of Europeans there who obviously went
Speaker 1: citizens and couldn't play, but were definitely good enough. So
Speaker 1: you know, like in that environment, like you just can't
Speaker 1: help but learn and pick it up. And it's really
Speaker 1: simple swim, Like if you can't go, you just and
Speaker 1: keep up, you just fall by the wayside. So I
Speaker 1: was really lucky. So I was just like a sponge.
Speaker 1: And yeah, like Tape, luckily was still national team coach
Speaker 1: for a number of years and he was the one
Speaker 1: who brought me into the national team. So I first
Speaker 1: played for Australia in twenty twelve, and then yeah, I
Speaker 1: played well my first World Championships twenty thirteen, which was,
Speaker 1: you know, four years after I first started playing, like
Speaker 1: it was it's ridiculous, like it's ridiculous, and then you know,
Speaker 1: I yeah, and I loved it. It was great and
Speaker 1: it sounds really strange. But the place I feel most
Speaker 1: at home is in the big events, Like I think
Speaker 1: it's just one of those things like I just I
Speaker 1: feel at home there, like it's where I feel most comfortable.
Speaker 1: And I definitely choked the first game we played, I
Speaker 1: played against Hungary, but it was it was a really
Speaker 1: good learning curve because I went, I got myself too
Speaker 1: amped up for it, and I went, what do I
Speaker 1: need to do? So I actually the complete opfice. I
Speaker 1: tried to put myself asleep the next day, listened to
Speaker 1: Elton John all day before the game, like music I
Speaker 1: could or like the most chill music IU as my
Speaker 1: pup music to coming down, and that's what I've done
Speaker 1: ever since, and candle in the wind, go for it.
Speaker 1: But it's great. But then yeah, the next day I
Speaker 1: was I was really lucky. I went out, We're playing
Speaker 1: Spain in Madrid, home World Championships, so like they're up
Speaker 1: for it, they're pumped. We're playing against some of the
Speaker 1: guys i'd seen at Sydney Olympics, which was really cool.
Speaker 1: One of the goalkeepers was there and and yeah, I
Speaker 1: went out there. I managed to score four goals against Spain,
Speaker 1: which is pretty good because they ended up winning the
Speaker 1: World Championship. So you know, for it was a pretty
Speaker 1: quick quick development, you know, from never having played to
Speaker 1: four years later playing the World champions in Madrid. You know,
Speaker 1: I managed to top score for Australia in that game
Speaker 1: against them, and from there I was away. You know,
Speaker 1: I got that confidence. I knew what I had to do,
Speaker 1: and you know I played you know over in Kosovo,
Speaker 1: which was amazing to go through there, and you know
Speaker 1: around New Zealand and Australia in places like that too,
Speaker 1: and then over in which was interesting. I had to
Speaker 1: run away from a sheik for three weeks because he
Speaker 1: thought I owed him fifteen grand but which is a story.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and that was the Olympic qualifiers. So what
Speaker 1: happened is our manager who's one of my best mates.
Speaker 1: It was great whenever we chok traveled overseas. He'd just
Speaker 1: go where do you want to go? On the way
Speaker 1: home and all route everyone's flights through there and we'll
Speaker 1: have a holiday. But he couldn't go be he's a
Speaker 1: teacher and he'd had too much time off work. So
Speaker 1: he said, you can just do it, just take the cash.
Speaker 1: I'll give you this, And the Katari's wanted everything in cash, right,
Speaker 1: So I'm like, leaving Australia, I've taken out like thirty
Speaker 1: grand US in cash, got in my backpack. As I'm
Speaker 1: heading through customs, I was like, I've never seen this
Speaker 1: much money in my life, like, you know, and get
Speaker 1: to Qatar and I'm sitting in the technical meeting with
Speaker 1: our coach as a Danish guy, and basically in the
Speaker 1: technical meeting they go right, you know, they go through
Speaker 1: all the what's going to go on for the tournament,
Speaker 1: medical care protocol for the games, dope in control, all
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, who's going to wear what and
Speaker 1: what games and they've gone, oh, by the way, if
Speaker 1: you've got sponsors on the uniform, it's three grand a
Speaker 1: logo and we didn't know that. So we've got five
Speaker 1: of them on there. And handball has no money like,
Speaker 1: I've never been paid a cent for any sport ever.
Speaker 1: We pay other than World championships, I've always paid to
Speaker 1: go somewhere, like Olympic qualifiers were paying to go. So
Speaker 1: we got no money. And the guy who was running
Speaker 1: the Asian Handball Federation was also a Katari chic and
Speaker 1: he came up to He's like, yeah, I was fifteen
Speaker 1: grand and I'm like, well, we haven't got it. He's
Speaker 1: like we have to just get it, because you know,
Speaker 1: what's fifteen grand to them, you know, And he was
Speaker 1: getting really shitty with us, and I'm saying, our coach
Speaker 1: is Danish, you know, he's a good bloke. And we
Speaker 1: go outside and he's getting a bit heeded about it, right,
Speaker 1: and it's like ten or fifteen minutes. He goes, look,
Speaker 1: look I come back. I come back. I go bath
Speaker 1: through him. I come back. And I said to our coach,
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, and we need to leg it
Speaker 1: so to run and he's like we're getting down to
Speaker 1: the car right now, I'm going and he was like
Speaker 1: what no, okay, So it's like, yeah, come get in
Speaker 1: the car. So we got in the car. I got
Speaker 1: back to the hotel and you know, like I'm playing,
Speaker 1: like he knows where I'm going to be, right, So
Speaker 1: for the next three weeks every time, and he was there,
Speaker 1: like because they've got all the bps, they've got their
Speaker 1: seats halfway, they've got these giant thrones over there for them.
Speaker 1: It was great. And I could see him come down
Speaker 1: in the corridors while we're training and stuff like that
Speaker 1: and what and like during training or before training or
Speaker 1: after the games, I'd have to like hide in the
Speaker 1: toilet until he was gone and I just wasn't there,
Speaker 1: and then we go. I did that for three weeks
Speaker 1: and then but yeah, so then we played that tournament
Speaker 1: to qualify for Rio, which which we didn't qualify, which
Speaker 1: I was actually really grateful for. It was always a
Speaker 1: bit of a long shot anyway, but because that was
Speaker 1: at the point twenty fifteen, I so context the twenty
Speaker 1: thirteen World Champs, like that was what I'd been working for.
Speaker 1: I was like, if I can just get to this,
Speaker 1: that'd be amazing. And you know, like I said, I'd
Speaker 1: always thrown myself into sport, so I guess would distract
Speaker 1: myself from everything else that was going on around my
Speaker 1: gender and all that sort of stuff, and the really
Speaker 1: hard thing is when you get to the top of
Speaker 1: that mountain, what do you shoot for? Like obviously you
Speaker 1: keep going like you want to keep going. And you know,
Speaker 1: I wanted to have a more consistent World Championships next time.
Speaker 1: I wanted to because and I'm not saying I was.
Speaker 1: I had an amazing tournament, was my first one. I
Speaker 1: was twenty three years old, you know, like I definitely,
Speaker 1: you know, had a lot of improvement in me and
Speaker 1: I definitely wasn't our best player by any means. And
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that, but you know, you tick off
Speaker 1: such a you tick off such a big goal and
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I got there, okay, And then what
Speaker 1: happened is those thoughts and that you know that all
Speaker 1: that stuff around my gender kept coming back in stronger
Speaker 1: and stronger and stronger, and I kept trying to run
Speaker 1: away from it. And you know, I did the same
Speaker 1: through twenty fourteen. And by the time I got to
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, I was just a mess, Like I was
Speaker 1: was broken, Like I was a mess. And you know,
Speaker 1: I told a really good friend of mine here what
Speaker 1: was going on? And she's still my best friend to
Speaker 1: this day.
Speaker 2: Kayla.
Speaker 1: She's up in Dalin now, but she knew for a
Speaker 1: good six or seven months before I told anyone else,
Speaker 1: and she kept it to herself. And you know, I
Speaker 1: can't speak highly enough of her and everything she did.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'd been to the doctor and done
Speaker 1: all that, so I had all the drugs and stuff
Speaker 1: that I needed in my car. You know, initially an
Speaker 1: anti androgen, which basically eliminates testosterone. And I think that's
Speaker 1: something people don't understand either, is trans people have less
Speaker 1: testosterone than cisgendered women. So you know, cisgender women have
Speaker 1: more testosterone than I do. So I think that's just something.
Speaker 1: But then also, you know, your estrogen and stuff, so
Speaker 1: one knocks out your testosterone and the other adds estrogen
Speaker 1: and everything that happens with that. And that was all
Speaker 1: sitting in my car, and I'd had that, you know,
Speaker 1: back home in camera and I'd had that sitting there
Speaker 1: for months. But I didn't want to take it because
Speaker 1: I didn't want it to affect my performance, but not
Speaker 1: that it was. It wouldn't have comeback is like doping
Speaker 1: or anything, because it was it's not it's the opposite
Speaker 1: of performance enhancing. That I didn't want it to affect
Speaker 1: my performance and let anyone down. And in retrospect, I
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't have gone to guitar that tournament, but you
Speaker 1: know you like, of course you are sweet, you live
Speaker 1: for and I thought I'd never do it again, like
Speaker 1: at this.
Speaker 2: Point, I you know the I almost yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well the IIC didn't have any regulations out, so
Speaker 1: I thought, shit, like, I'm never going to do this again,
Speaker 1: like I want to. I want to go out on
Speaker 1: my turns. And as it's as it turned out, and
Speaker 1: I didn't know this, the IOC came out with a
Speaker 1: new regulations three months after that tournament, like February twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: and I was like, sweet.
Speaker 2: I'm back, I mean yeah, yeah, yeah, So how did
Speaker 2: you so? Yes, so how did that? How did you
Speaker 2: tell family? How did you begin that transition?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I stuffed that up a couple of times. So
Speaker 1: I remember one day we were in Katar and I
Speaker 1: was up in the pool, up on the top level
Speaker 1: of the hotel, and I remember just thinking like it
Speaker 1: came from nowhere. I don't know where it came from,
Speaker 1: but I was just wanted just tell her now, this
Speaker 1: is my mum, because she was the one I was
Speaker 1: most worried about telling about it. Not that look, I
Speaker 1: knew she'd be super accepting. I just didn't want to
Speaker 1: be upset or worry, you know, like that was my
Speaker 1: biggest thing all the time, all the way through. And
Speaker 1: so I was like, well, whyted to do it now?
Speaker 1: And I knew in that moment I had to take
Speaker 1: that moment because if I let it pass, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have done it because I would have been too scared again.
Speaker 1: So I got out of the pool, went down to
Speaker 1: went down to grab my phone from my room, and
Speaker 1: just shot off this message that I thought was super concise,
Speaker 1: really concise, to the point, very well put. I reread
Speaker 1: it later on. It was the most rambling piece of
Speaker 1: you've ever seen. But the message got through. She understood
Speaker 1: what I meant, and she was back and she was
Speaker 1: she was great, like she was. She was really supportive.
Speaker 1: She was great. And I didn't tell anyone else till
Speaker 1: I got home. So Lucas came good. I was seeing
Speaker 1: ACDC and Perth, so he wrote our flights through Perth
Speaker 1: and I touched down in Perth and I was like,
Speaker 1: all right, I don't have any of me to tell
Speaker 1: people verbally, So I'm gonna have to And that was
Speaker 1: part of it, like I just didn't have anyth me
Speaker 1: so to write something. And I wrote this message in
Speaker 1: notes in my phone, right, and I just copy and
Speaker 1: paste and send. But I was like, well, I'm not
Speaker 1: just going to send it point blank, right. What I'm
Speaker 1: going to do is I'm going to message someone and
Speaker 1: message people and say hey, I need to talk to
Speaker 1: you about something, and then copy and paste this message in
Speaker 1: So I said that to my brother, said one of
Speaker 1: my brothers, I said, I need to talk to about something,
Speaker 1: and I went prepared at copy and pasted the message
Speaker 1: as he replied, my dad texted me about something totally different.
Speaker 1: And you know how that comes up at the banner
Speaker 1: at the top, like when the message comes in. I
Speaker 1: went and hit that, thinking rather it was my dad,
Speaker 1: and I just hit it and sent it gone. And
Speaker 1: then I realized I sent it without the that I
Speaker 1: need to talk about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably about the explainer, Yeah, yeah, I went.
Speaker 1: So I turned my phone, I've got an ice cream,
Speaker 1: went sorry ACDC, and turned it on six hours later.
Speaker 1: And but look, he was great. I've never had a
Speaker 1: bad response from anyone like he's he's great. He's so supportive.
Speaker 1: He was a bit confused to begin with, you know,
Speaker 1: like seven year old army officer will be. But he
Speaker 1: was so supportive and I know that, like he reached
Speaker 1: out to Kate McGregor, who was also in the army
Speaker 1: for a while and all this sort of stuff. And
Speaker 1: my brother's really great. So you know, I can't say
Speaker 1: I've had a negative response from anyone who matters.
Speaker 2: So you begin hormone therapy, Am I right to say?
Speaker 2: November twenty fifteen?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he publicly identify as female in May twenty sixteen.
Speaker 3: So the ICE rules mean that you needed to have
Speaker 3: twelve months of hormone therapy. Yeah, you get to the
Speaker 3: levels below what's at that stage, the ten animals per
Speaker 3: later level by July twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The way the medication works, it does it almost
Speaker 1: immediately really, like so yeah, you could go three or
Speaker 1: four days on this medication, your testosterone's gone and I
Speaker 1: mean like below measurable levels, like they can't measure it.
Speaker 1: There's that little in it. So yeah, I was below
Speaker 1: it pretty much immediately, and really the only reason I
Speaker 1: didn't do it, like I just I guess I transition
Speaker 1: probably officially and I guess I may or something during whatever.
Speaker 1: It was really just because I needed to give the
Speaker 1: hormones time to work and I have really sure, yes,
Speaker 1: so I needed to grow it out a bit, But
Speaker 1: that was really the only reason why did that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and this is around the time you start
Speaker 4: thinking I'm going to play football? Out did that come about?
Speaker 2: Had it?
Speaker 1: Football?
Speaker 4: Was that with Ainsley?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So football was the next year and I didn't
Speaker 1: really ever think about playing football at that point. It's
Speaker 1: just that, you know, I mean, this is a really
Speaker 1: hard thing to go through, like anyone has brands and
Speaker 1: gone through this transition, Like you can't describe how hard
Speaker 1: it is because one you're terrified, you're na navigating new ground,
Speaker 1: but you also, you know, you lose a lot of
Speaker 1: people like you do. Like when I say I never
Speaker 1: got a negative response from anyone who mattered, that's not
Speaker 1: to say I didn't get negative responses. And generally it's
Speaker 1: not avert to your face like we're not supportive. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you they're supportive, but they're not, and then they
Speaker 1: drift away and it's a really confusing time. So with football,
Speaker 1: I just needed to meet some new people. Like that's
Speaker 1: literally all it was. And I when I moved to
Speaker 1: Camber in twenty eighteen, I played for Ainsley. I went
Speaker 1: and played for Ainsley, and even that was a bit
Speaker 1: of a weird season because I went and I'd done
Speaker 1: a bit of a pre season with Eastlake and then
Speaker 1: I was working with a guy who was playing for Ainsley.
Speaker 1: He said, I won't you just come here because like
Speaker 1: to the point, like the coach of east Slake at
Speaker 1: that time, I'm sure he's a good bloke, but he
Speaker 1: scared me. He was insane, Like I'm sure he's a
Speaker 1: good bloke. No, I was mental, but really I'm sure
Speaker 1: he's a really good bloke. But he scared it out
Speaker 1: of me. So I was like, yeah, I'm out. I'm
Speaker 1: going to Ainsley, like why not? And that was And
Speaker 1: then I went and did first game in a practice
Speaker 1: match actually, like I got to the club and I
Speaker 1: played a practice match in the thirds like two days
Speaker 1: later because I literally just rocked up and I really
Speaker 1: badly injured my hip and I was off for like
Speaker 1: ten weeks and came back and it was a bit
Speaker 1: of a weird season. But they were really great people,
Speaker 1: and they were really really great people, and I was
Speaker 1: still training with like the senior squad and stuff, but
Speaker 1: you know, halfway through the set and hadn't done it
Speaker 1: pre season, in jured myself two days after getting to
Speaker 1: the club, so it was a bit of a ride off.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, and that was it. And I had
Speaker 1: also assistant coached an act under twelve team where there
Speaker 1: was a few Ainsley people around two and went away
Speaker 1: with it and the parents were like the parents were
Speaker 1: Angsley people. I got to know them really well. So
Speaker 1: so yeah, so come twenty seventeen, I'm still friends with
Speaker 1: some of these people on Facebook and stuff and those messages.
Speaker 1: I was just like, do you reckon? I could play?
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, but do you reckon? I could
Speaker 1: because I just want to meet some new people. And
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, come down, look for Fees. She's the coach.
Speaker 1: She's great, and she is she's awesome. And I went
Speaker 1: down there and that was pretty much it. I just
Speaker 1: went down to go meet some new people. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I played that twenty seventeen. I played half a season
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen with Ainsley because I was going to
Speaker 1: Europe in the second half of the season, so like
Speaker 1: I'd had no plans on playing football, because clearly because
Speaker 1: book this trip to Europe and and I played this
Speaker 1: half a season or maybe a little bit more than
Speaker 1: half a season. And yeah, it was in that time
Speaker 1: where the AFL W had just kicked off. They'd been
Speaker 1: one season of it, and it was during that time
Speaker 1: going into the second season where I was and I'd
Speaker 1: been involved with like one of the act Rep teams
Speaker 1: I was playing in wager or so, I can't remember
Speaker 1: who it was against Riverine or something, I don't know,
Speaker 1: And someone from Melbourne just messaged me, and not Melbourne
Speaker 1: the club, just from Melbourne messaging and so like, oh,
Speaker 1: would you be keen and playing AfOR W And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh yeah. Because my theory has always been
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say no to something, I would
Speaker 1: say yes too just because I'm trans Like that's stupid.
Speaker 1: So I was like, well, if someone's came said to
Speaker 1: me five years ago, would you be keen on playing
Speaker 1: AFL Yeah. So I was like, all right, I'll go
Speaker 1: give it a go. So I flew down to Melbourne
Speaker 1: and I trialed with Melbourne one night. They had a
Speaker 1: down there yep, which was good. I sort of it
Speaker 1: sat really funny on the flight. It was a really
Speaker 1: and even though it was only an hour, I got
Speaker 1: up and I couldn't move very well. So we were
Speaker 1: doing the sprints and I saw it hurt my brain
Speaker 1: a bit, so I couldn't do the two k sad
Speaker 1: but you know, that was the thing they did last
Speaker 1: after the sprints, so I was like miss So they
Speaker 1: asked me back to come to the second lot they
Speaker 1: had after they called everyone down, but I was already
Speaker 1: in Europe, so I was like, sorry, guys, I can't.
Speaker 1: But while I was in Melbourne that morning, because it
Speaker 1: all came together really quickly, Tim Hazel, who was vivid.
Speaker 1: He was managing me. He's like my manager cool, and
Speaker 1: so he'd lined up a meeting with Collingwood that morning
Speaker 1: and they were really keen. Collingwood was super keen. I
Speaker 1: think it was Maddie Jane who was there at the time.
Speaker 1: He Umpire is that his name? I think he was
Speaker 1: an unplied for a long time. Yeah, he was the
Speaker 1: list manager and he was super key. He was like,
Speaker 1: we didn't use our second category B last week. I'd
Speaker 1: signed him now and then so I met with Collingwood
Speaker 1: and they were really keen. And then later on I
Speaker 1: can't remember how it came about, but I had a
Speaker 1: couple of meetings with Bulldogs as well, and that was
Speaker 1: really good. You know, Collingwood I only met with once,
Speaker 1: but I know they were super keen. Bulldogs I met
Speaker 1: with once. I went and had to kick out the
Speaker 1: Western Suburbs somewhere near whitt Novle. It wasn't at witt Novle,
Speaker 1: but we went had to kick and did some marketing
Speaker 1: and stuff down there and that went pretty well. And
Speaker 1: then I went actually into the club maybe and this
Speaker 1: is after I got back from Europe. And then I
Speaker 1: went into the club, went through the facility is a bit,
Speaker 1: had a chapter. Grovesey who was the coach. It was
Speaker 1: an awesome dude. I actually ran into him in Darwin
Speaker 1: last year. He's a really cool guy and dumb and yeah,
Speaker 1: and yeah they were pretty keen. So I stayed in
Speaker 1: touch with the Bulldogs quite a bit. And yeah they
Speaker 1: were okay. I knew. I knew going into the draft,
Speaker 1: either Collingwood or the Bulldogs would take me. It was
Speaker 1: just a matter of who got in first. And I'm
Speaker 1: almost search would have been the Bulldogs. But it was funny,
Speaker 1: like I remember having a chat to I can't remember
Speaker 1: this manager's name of the Bulldogs now. He is a
Speaker 1: nice guy, and I remember him saying to him's like,
Speaker 1: we just have no idea where you're going to go,
Speaker 1: because there's no because in Camber they weren't recording the
Speaker 1: games at that point, there's no footage. But so all
Speaker 1: they were really going off was having seen me in
Speaker 1: Melbourne and having a kid and doing the Melbourne the
Speaker 1: stuff of the D's because the D's weren't interested because
Speaker 1: they were like too slow, like for our game and
Speaker 1: style too slow, and you can see it. They were
Speaker 1: going all skinny fast, like I'm not that.
Speaker 5: So I knew Melbourne wasn't keen, but but he was
Speaker 5: saying to me and it was like, look, you could,
Speaker 5: you might go top five, you might go to the
Speaker 5: rookie draft.
Speaker 1: We had no idea, like, we have absolutely no idea.
Speaker 1: So it was really just going to be who got
Speaker 1: in first. And I think it was going to be
Speaker 1: a matter of because they knew who was going to
Speaker 1: go top three. It was Contielloy, who else was it?
Speaker 1: There was one other I can't remember, And they're like,
Speaker 1: you could go top five, you could go rookie draft.
Speaker 1: We have no idea, so it was it was a
Speaker 1: bit of an unknown. But I know too like Danny
Speaker 1: Craven who used to play Securities up in Brisbane. He
Speaker 1: knew Peter Blocher, who was he It was Tim's boss
Speaker 1: at Vivid, so I think. And I knew Danny through handball.
Speaker 1: His kids played handball and his daughter in law plays handball,
Speaker 1: and so I knew Danny through that. And we'd spoken
Speaker 1: about footy a little bit previously, and he was sort
Speaker 1: of sussing out Brisbane a little bit. But to their credit,
Speaker 1: they saw the writing on the wall and said, you
Speaker 1: know what, there might be a bit of a distraction
Speaker 1: that comes.
Speaker 3: With this, which was which you know, you're living your car,
Speaker 3: you're sort of bouncing around between friends places, you're thinking
Speaker 3: a good chance, and then the AFL starts calling in
Speaker 3: for some meetings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you sort of. Well, I think you.
Speaker 3: Provided some data to them to show that your testosterone
Speaker 3: levels were close to zero. So what's happening as You're
Speaker 3: approaching the draft thinking I'm going to get picked, but
Speaker 3: I'm not sure where the AFL will will allow it,
Speaker 3: knowing of course that there is no policy in place
Speaker 3: at that stage.
Speaker 6: Hannah Mountsie should have been a shoe in to play
Speaker 6: at the elite level of the women's Aussie Rules competition,
Speaker 6: but late last year the AFL said no, deciding she
Speaker 6: was too much of a physical threat to her opponents.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was an interesting one, so we'd already had
Speaker 1: it ticked off by the AFL. It was all really yes,
Speaker 1: So Simon Lathlane, he was the one that was approached
Speaker 1: and here was no issues, no dramas, don't see the problems.
Speaker 2: So you're fine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, from.
Speaker 1: Our perspective it was fine. But then obviously he left
Speaker 1: the AFL, you know, in between us contacting him and
Speaker 1: then that draft happening, and then I don't know who
Speaker 1: took over his role, but obviously there was some conversations
Speaker 1: had and I remember I got a phone call quite
Speaker 1: a while later, because I think that was in Junal
Speaker 1: July when we'd approached him, and maybe even May. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I got a phone call from Tanya Hosh on the
Speaker 1: Grand Final public Holiday twenty seventeen. I remember it because
Speaker 1: it was four o'clock Friday afternoon on public holiday. So
Speaker 1: if you've got to deliver bad news, that's when you
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 2: That's the bad news time, isn't it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I really feel for Tanya because I really
Speaker 1: think she was put up to do all the dirty
Speaker 1: work and it wasn't And I actually think she was
Speaker 1: advocating quite strongly for me to play, so I know.
Speaker 1: So she rang me and she said, look, we've we
Speaker 1: want to review your nomination for the draft, which you
Speaker 1: know already knew that the decision has been made, but
Speaker 1: we need to go through a process is basically what
Speaker 1: I took from that. So I was actually in Portagusta
Speaker 1: at the time because my dad was taking jobs that
Speaker 1: no one wanted in the army to stay in, so
Speaker 1: he was running the range at Porto Gusta and you know,
Speaker 1: so I've been over there for a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: just with him because my dogs are over there. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and so I drove over to alven to meet with
Speaker 1: the a f L. Got to give it to them.
Speaker 1: They put me in a very very nice hotel at Docklands,
Speaker 1: so they really did spare no expensive. Yeah that was great.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I went to this meeting and it was
Speaker 1: it was I remember meeting with Bleirch and Tim beforehand
Speaker 1: sort of talking about it and how we go about it,
Speaker 1: and we're all sort of on the same view where
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm pretty sure this decision has already been made,
Speaker 1: but you know, let's we've got to give it our best.
Speaker 1: I walked in there and there was no policy in
Speaker 1: place by the AFL, and our argument was, well, I've
Speaker 1: already been playing. You already allowed me to play. If
Speaker 1: you're gonna allow me to play camera, it makes sense
Speaker 1: that you're allowing me to play here. And you know,
Speaker 1: I offered to them because knowing there was no process, said, look,
Speaker 1: this is the IOC policy, and our logic was it
Speaker 1: was good enough for the Olympics. It's good enough for
Speaker 1: the AFL because the Olympics also covers rugby seven's, it
Speaker 1: covers handball, both very very physical sports. You know, it
Speaker 1: covers everything, but particularly those two, which are probably the
Speaker 1: two most physical sports at the Olympics. And the AFL
Speaker 1: sort of went, well, we're not the Olympics. Our game
Speaker 1: is different. We're gonna not use that. So I offered,
Speaker 1: you know, all because I get tests. I get blood
Speaker 1: tests monthly just to show my testosterones non existent, which
Speaker 1: I still do now, which is a bit silly, but
Speaker 1: and I only say it's silly because once once you
Speaker 1: had you know, all your surgery and that like you
Speaker 1: can't produce it, like I can't produce testosterone, but I
Speaker 1: still do it anyway, and as even then, like it
Speaker 1: was the same thing. So I but I just did
Speaker 1: it because I was like, well, I'm going to get
Speaker 1: the tests anyway, because at least then I can say
Speaker 1: I've done it and I can give them something. So
Speaker 1: I offered it to the AFL and I can't remember
Speaker 1: if they took it or not, but they weren't really
Speaker 1: interested in how we were because the way they phrased
Speaker 1: it was, let's have a chat, will work it out,
Speaker 1: like we want to hear your side of things. But
Speaker 1: I don't think they particularly did.
Speaker 2: Do you remember who was in the room. Who was
Speaker 2: in the room with you at the moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Josh Vandaloo was there. I know that. I can't
Speaker 1: remember who else. I know Tamul was on the phone
Speaker 1: from Adelaide, and they were the main two leading it.
Speaker 1: But you know, so they weren't really keen for what
Speaker 1: we were presenting, which is fine, like that's what it is.
Speaker 1: And I didn't think they would take everything we said
Speaker 1: it and run with it like who would. But we
Speaker 1: also went in with the list of because the AFLW
Speaker 1: waights aren't listed, but the heights are. And I went, well,
Speaker 1: here's twenty girls who are my height or taller or
Speaker 1: within two or three centimeters on lists at the moment
Speaker 1: to say, look, this is not abnormal. You know my
Speaker 1: height is not abnormal. I can't give you the weight
Speaker 1: because that's not publicly available, but giving them what we can.
Speaker 1: But the really interesting one and the one that really
Speaker 1: showed to me, I think the decision was made long
Speaker 1: before I got to and look, I could be wrong,
Speaker 1: But the next day I went back in and there
Speaker 1: were two on the AFL board. At the time, there
Speaker 1: were two women on the board and I can't remember
Speaker 1: who they were. I want to say Gabie Trainer.
Speaker 2: Was one, and then there was NFL commissioners.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was someone else. It wasn't Sam Mouston because
Speaker 1: she was with Sydney and I remember talking to her
Speaker 1: later on, but and totally unrelated. But it was about
Speaker 1: like just Sydney pride games and stuff, so I know
Speaker 1: it wasn't her. But they sat me in a room
Speaker 1: and and they both sat me down and they went, so,
Speaker 1: we want to know what your biggest strength is that
Speaker 1: you think your biggest strength is on the field, And
Speaker 1: I said to them, I said, look, honestly, I think
Speaker 1: I grew up playing football and I've got a background
Speaker 1: in elite sports, so I've trained and i know how
Speaker 1: to use my body. I've trained for years, just like
Speaker 1: any number of the girls who had come across from
Speaker 1: other sports, like Chloe Dalton had come across from rugby,
Speaker 1: Georgie Parker had come across from hockey, Aaron Phillips had
Speaker 1: come across from basketball. So I was like, I think
Speaker 1: that's a huge advantage I've been in that environment. But
Speaker 1: also I grew up playing football, so I know how
Speaker 1: to read it and this and this, And they're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: but what else do you think is your biggest advantage?
Speaker 1: I went, well, honestly, like, I'm six foot, but I
Speaker 1: actually played pretty well on the ground and I'm not
Speaker 1: taking a piss there at that time, probably not now
Speaker 1: because I'm a bit older, but at the time I
Speaker 1: was like my ability on the ground to pick up
Speaker 1: the ball and use the skills from handball to work
Speaker 1: in really confine spaces. I was like that's my biggest skill.
Speaker 1: And they're like, yeah, okay, it's your actual biggest skill.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I'm pretty good at contested marking,
Speaker 1: I guess, and they're like, yeah, cool, thanks, we'll see now.
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, so that's what they wanted
Speaker 1: to hear. And it was just once I went to that,
Speaker 1: and I were like, they just wanted me to say
Speaker 1: I could take a contested mark to say RC look
Speaker 1: size and all this, and then I was on my
Speaker 1: way and.
Speaker 2: That reason to be able to qualify.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and so you know, and that was what
Speaker 1: it was. So I went away and that was a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks so I think before I can't remember.
Speaker 1: It felt like it was a couple of weeks, but
Speaker 1: it might have only been ten days or something before
Speaker 1: the announcement was made on whether I would be able
Speaker 1: to play. And it was all meant to be kept
Speaker 1: confidential and stuff, and obviously it wasn't but I found out,
Speaker 1: so obviously the decision came through the day before the draft.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what day of the draft was, like
Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteenth October. I found out the day before
Speaker 1: the AFL. I actually thought out through the media. So
Speaker 1: the AFL didn't tell me before they held the press conference,
Speaker 1: or technically they did, but what had happened is they
Speaker 1: had sent me an email at like quarter to four
Speaker 1: maybe or three point thirty or whatever it was, and
Speaker 1: the press conference was held fifteen minutes later.
Speaker 2: Yea, so I did.
Speaker 1: I just didn't see the email because they literally sent
Speaker 1: the email and then ten to fifteen minutes later the
Speaker 1: press conference happened. So I actually found out. I was
Speaker 1: walking through a shopping center in Aubrey and it came
Speaker 1: up on the TV and I was like, oh cool,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm not going to play. Thanks guys, and
Speaker 1: that was pretty much.
Speaker 3: It's so, And what was the explanation to you? What
Speaker 3: did they what was their rationale?
Speaker 1: I'm still yet to receive that. Yeah, so I never
Speaker 1: actually received it. After the decision was made, I heard
Speaker 1: very very little from the AFL, and it was very
Speaker 1: difficult for me to have any communication with the AFL
Speaker 1: after that decision was made. So I still haven't been
Speaker 1: given a reason, not formally anyway. Well I haven't been
Speaker 1: given one at all, But you know, I mean I
Speaker 1: think the assumption there is you know, they I think
Speaker 1: assumption from a lot of people, is there. They're concerned
Speaker 1: about obviously some sort of advantage that was there. I've
Speaker 1: been told by people who were close to it that
Speaker 1: the equal concern, or even a bigger concern to that
Speaker 1: was the afl W is a year old. We don't
Speaker 1: want this sideshow destroying it. And they were worried about
Speaker 1: the commercial viability and the commercial impact that my playing
Speaker 1: would have on sponsors, and particularly at that time, they
Speaker 1: were using the afl W as a tool to really
Speaker 1: encourage girls to play foot junior footy, and I was
Speaker 1: kick and stuff like that. And from what I've been
Speaker 1: told from people who are at the AFL but not
Speaker 1: involved in the decision, was that what everyone had heard
Speaker 1: was it was essentially, we don't we're worried about the
Speaker 1: commercial side of it. We're worried about it impacting parents'
Speaker 1: decisions to allow their daughters to play junior forty or
Speaker 1: os kick in case they play against a trans person,
Speaker 1: because if we set this precedent now, we have to
Speaker 1: then let every trans person play at every level. But
Speaker 1: you know, that was, you know, off the record, told
Speaker 1: to me by people who were at the AFL but
Speaker 1: weren't in the room. But I've actually never received anything
Speaker 1: from the AFL about a reason.
Speaker 3: And you became not person and on Grada, but someone
Speaker 3: they were scared of. So they spoke to you and
Speaker 3: communicated you through lawyers, and you know, you never had
Speaker 3: the meeting you would have loved to with Andrew with
Speaker 3: Gillan McLoughlin to sort of explain your situation or to
Speaker 3: build some kind of relationship with the AFL.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I never asked for it, but look, it's I
Speaker 1: think percerna and on Grada is definitely was definitely accurate
Speaker 1: because you know, I mean I look, maybe I lacked
Speaker 1: some tact sometimes, but if someone asked me a question,
Speaker 1: I just give an answer. And I think maybe I
Speaker 1: was probably a bit blunt for their liking, and I
Speaker 1: think they sort of wanted me to go away. And
Speaker 1: you know, at the time too, it was one of
Speaker 1: those things where I mean I was still during this
Speaker 1: whole thing, I was still bouncing around all different places
Speaker 1: in my car, like so I sort of needed a
Speaker 1: job and that was half the reason I went, yeah, cool,
Speaker 1: I'll play AFL, because like there's at least some money
Speaker 1: coming in. I was somewhere to live. Cool set back up,
Speaker 1: so you know, I had nothing to lose and I
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was interesting. So it became the shit
Speaker 1: show that it was. And then I ended up in Melbourne,
Speaker 1: was working in Melbourne out at Ringwood and yeah, ended
Speaker 1: up playing obviously for Darrebin the next year, which was
Speaker 1: great because I was able to And this was the
Speaker 1: confusing thing. I was still able to play every competition
Speaker 1: but afl W.
Speaker 2: And that's where things are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where like, if it wasn't for that,
Speaker 1: I would have given the the idea that it was
Speaker 1: for commercial reasons, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
Speaker 1: But when you're allowed to play everywhere else but not
Speaker 1: afl W, it actually gives a lot of credence to that,
Speaker 1: I think. And I played at darrab And and I loved it.
Speaker 1: And the thing is, and this is why I say
Speaker 1: it made no sense. Our team was full of afl
Speaker 1: LISTED players. Also all the opposition, Like our midfield was
Speaker 1: Pasi belist O'Day Lauren Pierce in the rock who else
Speaker 1: was there? Met McDonald was down back like Lily Meth
Speaker 1: and like it was.
Speaker 4: A whole It was an afl W team, isn't it.
Speaker 4: And they were all supportive of you bread.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely bad. Yeah, they were awesome. And my only
Speaker 1: real regret from that time is I sort of wish
Speaker 1: I'd been able to integrate myself more into the club,
Speaker 1: but I was very weary of It was such a
Speaker 1: strange situation, like because I really love those girls. It
Speaker 1: was brilliant and the club couldn't have been better. But
Speaker 1: I walked in everyone knew who I was. I didn't
Speaker 1: know anyone, and I am the most controversial thing in
Speaker 1: Australia at that point, and I also didn't know. I
Speaker 1: didn't want the girls sorted to get in trouble for
Speaker 1: being too close to me, so I sort of kept
Speaker 1: my distance a bit like get in trouble with their
Speaker 1: AFL clubs, because I know they've been things, you know,
Speaker 1: don't a comment, don't talk, So I just totally backed out.
Speaker 1: And I think they probably thought I was being a
Speaker 1: bit aloo for arrogant or something, but it was and
Speaker 1: I just it was such an awkward thing a situation
Speaker 1: not the club, but such an awkward situation for me
Speaker 1: to be and just in general with everything in the media.
Speaker 1: And then I didn't want to get them in trouble
Speaker 1: with their clubs and stuff by being too close to
Speaker 1: them and all that. But I love them like it was,
Speaker 1: it was so much fun.
Speaker 4: You know that what the AFL has obviously done with
Speaker 4: you and other rules that have changed, You're worried that
Speaker 4: that has scared some transgender athletes away from local community sport,
Speaker 4: which is obviously a great that's obviously what you're concerned
Speaker 4: about now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely it would have would have spared them away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course it has. And it also has the other
Speaker 1: effective if you've got athletes who are trans and they
Speaker 1: you know, and they don't transition or don't do what
Speaker 1: they need to at any given time to protect their career, Like,
Speaker 1: how damaging is that to someone's health? You know? Like,
Speaker 1: and it does have the ability to drive people to
Speaker 1: really dark mental places. And you know the emphasis that's
Speaker 1: on mental health right now and has been for years,
Speaker 1: but you know, with you know, it's horrific. So I think,
Speaker 1: you know, if we're actually genuine about mental health and
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, you would make it a
Speaker 1: lot more expense across the board.
Speaker 3: What's your what's your message to the new IOC boss
Speaker 3: Kirsty Coventry. So she says there is overwhelming support amongst
Speaker 3: IOC members to protect the female category in what, as
Speaker 3: The Guardian says, is a significant shift and its gender
Speaker 3: eligibility policy. So a task force of scientists and international
Speaker 3: federations all set up to come up with a new policy.
Speaker 2: Hannah, what's your what's your message to Kirsty Coventry.
Speaker 1: Look, I think there is pressure and support, but it's
Speaker 1: from a again, a vocal minority. I think we know
Speaker 1: that Feena, who's a swimming governing body, are obviously you know,
Speaker 1: they've made their bands on trans people, as has the IBAF,
Speaker 1: who are two very like swimming and athletics, like how
Speaker 1: big is that in the Olympics, So they're obviously key stakeholders.
Speaker 1: There's obviously huge pressure from the United States government there,
Speaker 1: you know, as hosts of the next Olympics, and they're
Speaker 1: very anti trans anyway, and from the UK. But I
Speaker 1: think the thing is, though it's very much a problem
Speaker 1: only in a select few countries and really the English
Speaker 1: speaking world. You know, I think the evidence is there
Speaker 1: and that if there was this problem of trans people
Speaker 1: having an unfair advantage, we would know it by now
Speaker 1: in the results, but we don't have it. I come
Speaker 1: back to the doping example I used before. You know,
Speaker 1: you can't ban like unless you're going to if you
Speaker 1: think that people who do are allowed to compete again
Speaker 1: after they've served their ban. You can't put a blanket
Speaker 1: ban on trans people because they haven't done anything wrong.
Speaker 1: And also you're saying too that you believe there's no
Speaker 1: advantage from the doping after four years. So I think
Speaker 1: that's a key point. I think as well, people are
Speaker 1: very picky in the research that they use at any
Speaker 1: given time. So if I look at Carsta Semnia, for example,
Speaker 1: the IAAF commissioned research years ago into testosterone suppression and
Speaker 1: what and the effects that it has on performance. What
Speaker 1: it showed is that testosterone suppression significantly reduces performance and
Speaker 1: brings it into the female range. So and they use
Speaker 1: that specifically to force cast To Semenia to take testosterone
Speaker 1: suppressing medication because they believe that would bring her and
Speaker 1: level the playing field. They're now ignoring that research because
Speaker 1: if they acknowledge it, it means they have to allow
Speaker 1: trans people to compete, and so I think that's a
Speaker 1: real issue. But it also, you know, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you think that people are good at spot just because
Speaker 1: they're trans you know, it's such a simplistic view. And
Speaker 1: I use myself as an example, right like, or you know,
Speaker 1: I'm thirty, I'm thirty five, and you know, obviously there
Speaker 1: is some natural ability there, you know, like you have
Speaker 1: to but work ethic is so much more than talent.
Speaker 1: And we've all seen examples of people with all the
Speaker 1: talent in the world who don't put the work in
Speaker 1: and fall by the wayside and don't go anywhere. So
Speaker 1: you know, from my perspective, I look at I'm thirty
Speaker 1: five years old. I'm still trying to innovate with new
Speaker 1: shots that I'm bringing in in handball for example. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm stealing them from cricket, you know, bringing it out
Speaker 1: in the back of the hand to lob keepers and
Speaker 1: stuff from different positions, and you know, and that's something
Speaker 1: I've sort of worked on over the last year. You know,
Speaker 1: you're still in the gym every day training all that
Speaker 1: sort of thing, and if you're not putting in the work,
Speaker 1: you don't get anywhere. But it's also like the mental
Speaker 1: side of performance, like you need to know your game
Speaker 1: inside out, and that's something I've put a lot of
Speaker 1: work into is knowing, you know what, I'm going to
Speaker 1: get a lot of attention the first fifteen minutes of
Speaker 1: the game while they're fresh, I'm probably going to be
Speaker 1: pretty quiet because I've got so much attention on me.
Speaker 1: Don't stress the last forty five minutes when they're tired,
Speaker 1: because handball goes for an hour. When they start to
Speaker 1: tire and space opens up, that's my time, So you know,
Speaker 1: like and knowing who to target, what times of the
Speaker 1: game to take, Like, there's so much more that goes
Speaker 1: into it that people just don't acknowledge. So I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's so many reasons, but I'd just say you, I
Speaker 1: think if you're going to put a blanket band in place.
Speaker 1: The other thing it does too, is the Olympic movements
Speaker 1: meant to be sport for all, right, in this instance,
Speaker 1: it's not if you put a blanket ban in it.
Speaker 1: It's sport for cisgender people and transgender people and and
Speaker 1: you know, intersex people are then excluded, and so suddenly
Speaker 1: the Olympic movement loses a lot of credibility as well.
Speaker 2: Just your thoughts, we better let you go.
Speaker 3: But your thoughts on the local communities has been to
Speaker 3: trans debate with the netballer and the Mountain and Central districts.
Speaker 2: You know, it's the sex discrimination that comes into play.
Speaker 3: There other teams complaining, well, you can understand that people
Speaker 3: don't understand. You can understand that some people are scared
Speaker 3: about it all, but it seems to be trickling down
Speaker 3: all the way to the bottom, which is which is
Speaker 3: worrying for trans people.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think I do very much understand
Speaker 1: that people don't like that's totally fine and normal. Like
Speaker 1: I don't like, there's so many things that I don't
Speaker 1: know about that, you know. I mean, I don't expect
Speaker 1: people to be experts in trans issues and know everything
Speaker 1: going on if they're not affected by it, like who
Speaker 1: would be. But in this instance, like I think, what
Speaker 1: does happen and what is happening is people are choosing
Speaker 1: to weaponize the systems that are in place to actually
Speaker 1: attack trans people with protection. So and that was something
Speaker 1: I raised with the AFL very early on as well,
Speaker 1: you know, I raised it. I said, look, if you've
Speaker 1: got these you know, complaints procedures in place to say
Speaker 1: this person is not safe, we don't want to play
Speaker 1: against this person. What safeguards have you got in place
Speaker 1: to make sure that people aren't just going, shit, we're
Speaker 1: playing finals soon, we don't want to play against this person,
Speaker 1: and you know we're seeing that happen obviously. Look, I
Speaker 1: don't know what the goal is with the netball thing,
Speaker 1: I know of it. I can't say that that in
Speaker 1: that instance is one hundred percent what it is. But
Speaker 1: I know that those systems across the board are open
Speaker 1: to abuse and there definitely need to be checks and
Speaker 1: balances in place. And yeah, I think too, like not
Speaker 1: leaving it to people who you know, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: really unfair on local leagues and stuff and league presidents
Speaker 1: and stuff because they're not the people who should be
Speaker 1: making these decisions because they don't know. It's unfair on
Speaker 1: them too. So I think it needs to all these
Speaker 1: decisions need to go to a higher body. Is someone
Speaker 1: who's dedicated to this specifically as part of their role,
Speaker 1: that's it. Or I actually think the whole thing should
Speaker 1: be taken over by Sport Integrity Australia if I'm honest, Like,
Speaker 1: that's probably the best way to do it because it's
Speaker 1: it's neutral from all Sports Integrity is their thing and
Speaker 1: that's who I would like to see take over it,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 2: Last one from us. Has it all been worth it?
Speaker 3: The fight, the dramas, you know, the drain on your
Speaker 3: mental health to still be able to play support at
Speaker 3: the highest level as a transperson, do you know what?
Speaker 1: Like I the fight is hard, Like I can't what
Speaker 1: makes me good as an athlete is also the thing
Speaker 1: that's probably my downfall outside of that, and that is
Speaker 1: I can't walk away from a fight like I enjoy it.
Speaker 1: I enjoy the confrontation, I guess sometimes in the competition,
Speaker 1: and I need to pull myself from that. Not to
Speaker 1: say that I enjoy going on TV or something and
Speaker 1: complaining or whatever, like that's not what it's about. But
Speaker 1: you know, I've had such a good run, Like you know,
Speaker 1: ten years ago in Katar, I thought I was done.
Speaker 1: I've gone and got to meet some amazing people, got
Speaker 1: to do some really cool thing. Yeah, there's obviously been
Speaker 1: challenges to it, but you know, I also wonder what
Speaker 1: things would be like like I just say yes to everything,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's yeah, it's just it's been really cool.
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I got to play tennis, I've never
Speaker 1: played tennis in my life. I've got to play tennis
Speaker 1: on finals day at the Strain and Open. That's pretty cool,
Speaker 1: you know, playing against Casey Dake where that didn't go well,
Speaker 1: but you know, like it's it's it's just it's you
Speaker 1: get to do some really cool things outside of just that.
Speaker 1: I get to go play sport in front of all
Speaker 1: those people and the competition or whatever. So yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: do it again.
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