Speaker 1: Hi, my Boris, and this is straight Talk.
Speaker 2: If we don't get a million views in the first
Speaker 2: seven days, it'll be free. We dropped it and hit
Speaker 2: a million views in six hours or something.
Speaker 1: See macatosh Well into straight Talk, mate, Like they're actually
Speaker 1: unreal ideas. How do you think of this shit?
Speaker 2: Like all those things you don't think they're going to work,
Speaker 2: You work through it, you work out how to do it,
Speaker 2: and then when it comes together, the feeling's extraordinary. The
Speaker 2: gold standard of storytelling is telling me something I don't know,
Speaker 2: and it's sort of like show me something you haven't seen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 2: My dad didn't want me to work in magazines. He
Speaker 2: knew what I was making. He's like, you got to
Speaker 2: get out of this thing. But I just loved making
Speaker 2: the magazines. I love putting together the stories.
Speaker 1: Who's the craziest out of all of them?
Speaker 2: Out of all the stuff I deal with? Oh my god, I've.
Speaker 1: Seen macatosh Well into straight Talk mate. Morning, nice to
Speaker 1: meet Thanks for coming down to Byron. Byron, you're living
Speaker 1: in Barron.
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, I haven't been that long, but I was
Speaker 2: in Sydney for a long time and then in l
Speaker 2: A for a couple of years, and now that's we're
Speaker 2: going to office in Byron and we're going to office
Speaker 2: in California as well.
Speaker 1: So you grew up though in uh and Gariel? Is
Speaker 1: he Garry? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, your dad owns pub there? Yeah? Which which
Speaker 1: one is it? Isn't he? Amber?
Speaker 2: Pacific? Go tell the Hill?
Speaker 1: Yeah? School one? Yeah, he still owns it. Yeah, okay, cool?
Speaker 1: Robert Craig Robinson Yeah really well here good made? And
Speaker 1: mine brother, well is he's still living? He's at Yamber,
Speaker 1: isn't he? And Garry?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So he spends the weeks on the Gold Coast
Speaker 2: because his kids go too, and then comes down on
Speaker 2: the weekends.
Speaker 1: His kids go tome to school again just what gin
Speaker 1: send his boy dead there? He's close to Robert and
Speaker 1: but Robot is one of the older boys, like killing
Speaker 1: it at cool. He might be his last year or
Speaker 1: something like he's really bright.
Speaker 2: Super smart's yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Great, I haven't seen roll with Ages, Great Maid of
Speaker 1: mon Salo if you see, right. So grew up obviously,
Speaker 1: not I should say obviously, but I grew up as
Speaker 1: a board writer. Yes, in the we're talking about now,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yes, so grew up well, yeah, just before we get
Speaker 2: into it, though, I went through your analytics to look
Speaker 2: at what does well for you, and you've got these
Speaker 2: colorful characters that connected really well, and then anything you
Speaker 2: do on surfing tanks. So I'm like, I'm super interested
Speaker 2: to see what have you seen that. I was talking
Speaker 2: to the boys about it. I was like, really, you
Speaker 2: guys want to do anything on surfing.
Speaker 1: Maybe our audience is not that interested. Yeah, but if
Speaker 1: you're throw in a few names like Mick Fanning and
Speaker 1: some of that, something might change.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, So I'm going to turn it around.
Speaker 1: Okay, You're going to turn this whole thing around. Said,
Speaker 1: this dude is smart and by the way, I've seen
Speaker 1: some of the stunts you've done. So I'm really relying
Speaker 1: on you, okay to turn the stats around. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: at no pressure, but let's do it, okay, Okay, So hey,
Speaker 1: just take me when you grow up. What period?
Speaker 2: So I grew up in the nineties in Yambongari. So
Speaker 2: we grew so we actually used to live inland. We
Speaker 2: used to live sort of forty five minutes to an
Speaker 2: hour from the beach and grew up in a town
Speaker 2: called Casino. My dad was a shy clerk at the
Speaker 2: council and he always wanted buy a pub and I
Speaker 2: was so obsessed at that point, and he looked at
Speaker 2: a bunch of pubs. We went to northern Queensland, so
Speaker 2: we nearly bought one in Air, which is I don't know,
Speaker 2: a day from the beach. If you're driving south down
Speaker 2: to News.
Speaker 1: It's no beach across across because Reece.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then we did a trip to Cape York
Speaker 2: a couple years ago, my dad, my son and I
Speaker 2: and we caught it to the pub and he's like,
Speaker 2: your mother walked into this pub, she walked back out,
Speaker 2: laid in the backseat with a migraine and she didn't
Speaker 2: get out of the car. So thankfully we didn't buy
Speaker 2: that one. And then all we wanted to do. His
Speaker 2: dream pub was Pacific Hotel in Yamba, and then a
Speaker 2: couple of guys from Byron they all got they all
Speaker 2: went in together and they bought it. And so we
Speaker 2: moved from Inland down to Yamba, which was just life changing.
Speaker 1: A bit different than that is to what it is now.
Speaker 1: It's still it's still a smallish town. But back then
Speaker 1: it's quite remote relatively speaking. It was really a serving
Speaker 1: town and.
Speaker 2: Like a little resort town. So it's busy in the holidays.
Speaker 2: Fish town yeah yeah, yeah, still very small. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then what does that do for a kid growing
Speaker 1: up in the environment? So how do you come out
Speaker 1: of the place like that? Because nag Off was in
Speaker 1: la So like, how does I mean, what's what did
Speaker 1: it do in a formative sense for someone like you?
Speaker 2: That's an interesting one. Well, for a formative sense. There's
Speaker 2: a on the front of the public says pecific hotel
Speaker 2: in big ladders on the front. And so I had
Speaker 2: a bedroom above the.
Speaker 1: Ah you lived in the hotel.
Speaker 2: We lived in the park. Yeah, so we lived above
Speaker 2: the We lived cool.
Speaker 1: That's cool. I reckon that school.
Speaker 2: But it was really fun growing up for the pub,
Speaker 2: and then my dad had me go to work in
Speaker 2: it pretty early, so I was balancing the tills and
Speaker 2: learning about how to run the business. So that was
Speaker 2: really helpful. And then he was just always pushing me
Speaker 2: that we had to go to university, get out of
Speaker 2: a small town. So the moment you turn eighteen, you
Speaker 2: get out of there. So did that move to Sydney
Speaker 2: moved under Jeff and Penny Carr's house at Okay.
Speaker 1: Cool, but how's how's Jeff? How's Curry related? What's his
Speaker 1: friendship with it? Had they come about?
Speaker 2: They went to school together in Grafton.
Speaker 1: I really I didn't know Jeff is from Grafton. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a country boy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay. By the way, those who don't know, Geff Card
Speaker 1: played for George and a longtime administrator in the New
Speaker 1: South Wales Rugby League. And I know Jeff through the
Speaker 1: state of origin where I sponsored for one though ten
Speaker 1: years or something. And of course I knew Penny, his
Speaker 1: late wife Penny quite well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of people.
Speaker 1: So your dad sent you down to deliver the Jeff
Speaker 1: at Tama.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jeff offered, and then they had this little this
Speaker 2: sort of like little granny flat under the house in
Speaker 2: twn Royment. So I got to move to here.
Speaker 1: Is that that's late must be late late nineties. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's when I was sponsoring New South Wales. Jeff
Speaker 1: used to walk all the time from I don't know
Speaker 1: if he still does. He was always every time I
Speaker 1: ever seen he's walking from along the coast there along
Speaker 1: to Bondai.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and back. Yeah, and he's when I was living there.
Speaker 2: Scott's big birthday present for him because he played football
Speaker 2: big legs. Yeah, his son bought him basoline so he
Speaker 2: wouldn't get a rash between his side. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was such a good Yeah, it was the perfect
Speaker 2: way to come to Sydney. It was like a wonderland
Speaker 2: for me. I was like, wow, I look at his place.
Speaker 1: What did you do at Uni?
Speaker 2: I studied a few different things, and I studied business
Speaker 2: and then I didn't get through that degree and got
Speaker 2: a job at the surf magazine called Waves. So that
Speaker 2: was out of Chinatown. In Chinatown, yeah, that's where the
Speaker 2: office world. So it was the big British publisher called
Speaker 2: EMAP and they had Fahm and Smash Hits and Tracks,
Speaker 2: Waves and a whole bunch of magazines and a bunch
Speaker 2: of sort of teenagers and twenty year olds running them.
Speaker 2: Was it was really really fun.
Speaker 1: Did you gather as a journalist or admin or what
Speaker 1: we're doing?
Speaker 2: I just went in as a deputy editor. I didn't
Speaker 2: study writing or anything. I'm not a great writer, but
Speaker 2: from there I kind of learned. I learned what I
Speaker 2: wanted to do in life, and I loved it. I
Speaker 2: just loved making the magazines. I love putting together stories,
Speaker 2: and it was Waves was always the little brother to Tracks.
Speaker 2: Tracks was the sort of the cash cow, and Waves like,
Speaker 2: you stay in the corner, you get anyone trying to
Speaker 2: get in the youth market. And so I worked with
Speaker 2: the guy called Vaughan Blakey, and we had a lot
Speaker 2: of success with the magazine. Brought a lot, and that's
Speaker 2: when I realized that I was sort of not that
Speaker 2: great of an employee, and I had to go out
Speaker 2: of my own.
Speaker 1: You're not great at being an employee.
Speaker 2: And not great at being employee?
Speaker 1: What would it where? And how do you mean? Like
Speaker 1: do you don't like taking orders?
Speaker 2: Or I was like soot. So I grew up learning
Speaker 2: how to read a balance sheet and a pno because
Speaker 2: my dad taught me at the pub. And so when
Speaker 2: these young guys, and to their credit, they're really transparent
Speaker 2: with the numbers, and I could see tracks of make
Speaker 2: movie Box a year and then our magazine Ways would
Speaker 2: make between two and four hundred, and we're having all
Speaker 2: the success. So we'd go, oh, because I was on
Speaker 2: twenty five grand a year or something, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'd like to get a raise the magazine through really well,
Speaker 2: they said, the sales team's amazing at the moment, and
Speaker 2: they're getting amazing advertising, and then newsstand sales are really good,
Speaker 2: and like, oh the marketing they're doing an incredible job.
Speaker 2: And I was like, Okay, this is how this is
Speaker 2: going to work. So I kind of realized I needed
Speaker 2: to get out because I just I wanted My dad
Speaker 2: didn't want me to work in magazines. He knew what
Speaker 2: I was making, just like, you got to get out
Speaker 2: of this thing, like this is this is kind of
Speaker 2: like a really fun, kind of dead end job for you.
Speaker 2: That's what we thought. And so I was really good
Speaker 2: friends with a surfer named Tajborrow yep, and he was
Speaker 2: sort of the best surfer in the world at that point.
Speaker 2: And growing up there was no really good instructional how
Speaker 2: to surf books and so true yeah, and so I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, we're going to make a really good
Speaker 2: contemporary how to surf book. So I pitched him the
Speaker 2: idea and he said, okay, I'm in. We went, let's
Speaker 2: do fifty to fifty on it. And so I started
Speaker 2: writing in nights and at nights and on the weekends
Speaker 2: and working away and working away on it, and I
Speaker 2: was getting close to the end, and then the publishers
Speaker 2: found out that I had this book, and like they
Speaker 2: pulled me aside and said, hey, everything you do we
Speaker 2: own and I was like, well, no, I'm doing the weekends.
Speaker 2: He goes, no, if you're doing your surfbook, we own that.
Speaker 1: How does the people you're working for?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was like, well you don't and a
Speaker 2: you don't be You're not having it, and so we
Speaker 2: both sort of saved face. I got the sack, but
Speaker 2: I got a job in marketing. So I got a
Speaker 2: job in marketing and I went from the editorial floor
Speaker 2: that was really fun to the corporate floor and I
Speaker 2: spent the next six months in there learning everything I
Speaker 2: could about publishing. So distributors printers made all of those
Speaker 2: contacts and finished this book, and I got really lucky.
Speaker 2: I went to I found a really good printer in Singapore.
Speaker 2: I didn't have any money at the time, and my
Speaker 2: email came through from me the EMAP email, and so
Speaker 2: I got ninety dight terms.
Speaker 1: Wow, because they thought they thought EMAP was the one
Speaker 1: asking for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I use this printers for fifteen years after
Speaker 2: I'd started STAB, and every bill I'd get it would
Speaker 2: be like Sam Macintosh's Care of EMAP STAB. But yeah,
Speaker 2: we always paid our bills. And so I made this book.
Speaker 2: I was like, how am I going to pay for it?
Speaker 2: And so I rode for the Sunglass Company. I sort
Speaker 2: of surfed, okay, and you wrote for the Sunglass Company
Speaker 2: Onnett remember those?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And so I used to get fifteen hundred dollars a
Speaker 2: year a spoonship, yeah, a sponsorship and personally personally yeah.
Speaker 2: And then this one day they accidentally put extra zero.
Speaker 2: They pay him fifteen thousand. So I had to pay
Speaker 2: for these eight thousand books two dollars eighty seven apiece.
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, I'm going to dump this
Speaker 2: on the print run. And I got ninety days to
Speaker 2: pay down the other stuff, and then I had to
Speaker 2: pay back to it. And so I got this book
Speaker 2: out and I self publish it because I couldn't get
Speaker 2: a publisher because I didn't have any runs on the board.
Speaker 2: And one day my dad calls me, reads the Son
Speaker 2: Herald and goes, you're in the best sellers list. Oh wow, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so he's in the Sporting section, the best sellers list,
Speaker 2: and the book just flew flew in the US, flew
Speaker 2: in Australia, and it was life changing. And then from there,
Speaker 2: what was a book called. It was called Taj Borrow's
Speaker 2: Book of Hot Surfing.
Speaker 1: They put Tar Borrows then on the top. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: he was a co author that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I was just a bunch of interviews and then
Speaker 2: all the basic stuff. I'm not you interviewing him, yeah, yep, right,
Speaker 2: and just anecdotal stuff. And then all I served, Okay,
Speaker 2: so I could write most of it. And then I'd
Speaker 2: done so much so many interviews with him. I kind
Speaker 2: of got his.
Speaker 1: Tone right, and so I nearly write his answers pretty.
Speaker 2: Much, and then I just kind of go the technique
Speaker 2: stuff I'd write, and then I just get anecdotes from
Speaker 2: him about certain examples of where things took place and yeah,
Speaker 2: and so.
Speaker 1: But that was quite clever. Quite a clever technique is
Speaker 1: to use the Taj Borrows in the in the title.
Speaker 1: And given his status at the time, even today he's
Speaker 1: still got status. But like his status at the time,
Speaker 1: and as you say, would have been one of the
Speaker 1: first books ever. There's books on everything in those season,
Speaker 1: but I don't remember seeing anything else surfing.
Speaker 2: Just the one in a really contemporary way. And at
Speaker 2: the start he was like, I don't want to go
Speaker 2: out and stand up in the white water on a
Speaker 2: soft top. I'm just just trust me. And so it
Speaker 2: was really broad, but then went really really pointed at
Speaker 2: the end, and so it was like you kind of
Speaker 2: had to had to go through the sections and see
Speaker 2: unless you kind of got through in this section, you
Speaker 2: couldn't go to the next color. And then a whole
Speaker 2: generation of pro surfers, we later learned, wouldn't go to
Speaker 2: the next page until they made each trick as they
Speaker 2: went just pretty cool, a younger pro surface younger, yeah, younger.
Speaker 1: So you're really trying to appeal to as a good
Speaker 1: Christmas present for parents to give you the kids too,
Speaker 1: especially like you know, those little kids run a little
Speaker 1: soft boards, like I'll get to the board, I'll get
Speaker 1: to the book, especially up in coastal towns or even
Speaker 1: in Bondai in places like because the kids, I don't
Speaker 1: know if they still do it, but they're all writing
Speaker 1: those you know, a little six foot soft boards, you know,
Speaker 1: because you get sort of right on the edge of
Speaker 1: the flags. Yeah, like it was more access and sort
Speaker 1: of like appeared much more safe.
Speaker 2: It's so much safer that just like the softer rails. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: when a hard rail hits you, you can knock your own.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and parents like because I got I remember I
Speaker 1: brought up with my kids. I was way too clumsy
Speaker 1: and did rother But like, but you know, they're fun,
Speaker 1: but so so what you're appealing to. I might ask
Speaker 1: you what what did did you actually sit there and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: who am I baling to? Who am I buyers of
Speaker 1: the book?
Speaker 2: I did? I just I didn't want to leave out
Speaker 2: any cohort, And I thought, if you have all the
Speaker 2: advanced stuff, but then you have Tarj Borrow teaching you
Speaker 2: how to paddle on the front end. If it's Tarsborrow,
Speaker 2: you get what you kind of got cloud cover to
Speaker 2: pull anything off. So we dumbed it right down in
Speaker 2: the basic end, and then at the other end it
Speaker 2: was the most technical surfing you could possibly do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so were you but you actually sort of telling
Speaker 1: the kids how to paddle.
Speaker 2: Out, how to paddle out, how to duck dive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: How to be a good house guest just like it was.
Speaker 2: There were a few there's a bunch of other things
Speaker 2: that weren't just surfing. They were sort of surfing related,
Speaker 2: sort of surfing adjacent and yeah, the interestingly, so Tarj
Speaker 2: had just signed a huge contract with Billibong and so
Speaker 2: we hit them up to sponsor and they said no, no,
Speaker 2: we don't want to be part of it. So he
Speaker 2: had to shoe sponsor Globe. So Globe got behind the book,
Speaker 2: and then the book came out and it was a
Speaker 2: runaway success.
Speaker 1: How do you even? Globe got behind the books?
Speaker 2: So they sponsored the book.
Speaker 1: And how do you I've never seen that before. How
Speaker 1: do you sponsor a book? How does that work?
Speaker 2: We just put a logo on the front and then
Speaker 2: the inside front cover was a big glow about optage, right,
Speaker 2: and then the whole bottom of the book was like
Speaker 2: a little flick book of like one perfect way of
Speaker 2: Taj had written. I just had this like spinning glow
Speaker 2: blogo in there and it's cool. Yeah, it was really cool.
Speaker 2: And then bill a Bong were bumed they weren't a
Speaker 2: part of it, and they said, we want to be
Speaker 2: part of the next print run. I said, we can't
Speaker 2: it's you turned the deal down and then they said, well,
Speaker 2: we want to do a book as well, and so
Speaker 2: they did a thirty anniversary book for Billabong, which we
Speaker 2: made for those guys, and then we.
Speaker 1: You got that they commissioned you to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we made that book for No, not Tage.
Speaker 2: I had a partner on it. We made it together,
Speaker 2: and then we use the money from that to start STAB.
Speaker 1: Okay, so can you see, sayly, how old were you
Speaker 1: when you did.
Speaker 2: This book twenty four And the biggest gift was I
Speaker 2: couldn't get a publisher because I learned how to do it.
Speaker 1: And then because you've had a publisher that would have
Speaker 1: owned you and you had just got like a bit
Speaker 1: of a royalty yea.
Speaker 2: And books are entoriously shitty business.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I've done for them. There's no money in them.
Speaker 1: That's why I always, I mean generally speaking, I always
Speaker 1: hapy to give the money to charity because like it's
Speaker 1: it's modest, but like at the same time, I feel
Speaker 1: as though, like, yeah, there's no reason to do it,
Speaker 1: and I think if I can at least give some
Speaker 1: money to charity, there's a reason to do it. Otherwise
Speaker 1: there's no money. There's no reason to do it money wise, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no don't it what's the royalty look like? Well,
Speaker 1: you know it might be fifty grand or right, it
Speaker 1: might be a hundred. You know, if you get a
Speaker 1: couple of reprints, might be a hundred.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So like generally speaking, you can't. I can't. I the
Speaker 1: last book I did, I only did it during cover
Speaker 1: because I was bored. But but I think like a
Speaker 1: fifty five grand all of them to charity, because like
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have done it otherwise I was bored. So
Speaker 1: I did it. But I had to find a reason
Speaker 1: to do it. On Bord would do it. That's my reason.
Speaker 1: And there's no money in it, so I'll give it
Speaker 1: a bit if charity make some money out of it them,
Speaker 1: I'm happy Otherwise using publisher them talking about and no
Speaker 1: I'm not having a great the publisher. They're great people
Speaker 1: and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a low margin game. Yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 2: especially today, do you get do you get a psychic
Speaker 2: reward from it?
Speaker 1: Though for that particular book I did Rise, I enjoyed
Speaker 1: that one, and I think the one I did before that,
Speaker 1: straight talk a straight talk What It Takes. It was cool.
Speaker 1: Sorry that the book was called What It Takes. I
Speaker 1: did an audiobook too, so I was happy. I got
Speaker 1: a bit of a bit of a buzz out of
Speaker 1: doing an audio book myself. I'll never do it again
Speaker 1: because I had to own studios for like thirty six hours,
Speaker 1: not not once. Like the best I could talk for
Speaker 1: was three hours at a time, so I had to
Speaker 1: do twelve sessions.
Speaker 2: But you still have to do work of writing it first.
Speaker 1: You had to write first. Then I had to do
Speaker 1: the audio. I had to read and I had to
Speaker 1: read it out aloud what I'd written literally eighty months before,
Speaker 1: and I started finding things and that I didn't agree
Speaker 1: with it, like we're no longer elevant. But I had
Speaker 1: to read it as it was written because it was
Speaker 1: an audiobook, so I had to read it, like, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: so your thoughts have evolved? Did I say that? The
Speaker 1: guy say, now you have to read it. You have
Speaker 1: to read it as you wrote it. And it's fine.
Speaker 2: SI.
Speaker 1: I needed that because that was good what I go
Speaker 1: out That was like the experience of doing it reading
Speaker 1: an audiobook myself in my own voice. But when you
Speaker 1: read what you wrote what you write, which is what
Speaker 1: you see, compared to what you say and what someone hears.
Speaker 1: It's they're completely different.
Speaker 2: Because you almost have to use the storytelling about two
Speaker 2: hundred percent totally.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the same. It's not the same experience,
Speaker 1: and so it was good for the experience the rest
Speaker 1: of it. I didn't make any money out of it, though, well,
Speaker 1: the money I made went to track. But so, what
Speaker 1: did you learn from writing? What did you learn not
Speaker 1: before the book? What did you learn from the whole
Speaker 1: book exercise like that maybe equipped you to go then
Speaker 1: and do stab. So what did you get out of it?
Speaker 1: What are the things that you got out of it?
Speaker 2: I just love putting altogether. That's the thing. I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: putting together the whole deal, selling the sponsorship, getting Tarj
Speaker 2: on board, writing it, bringing all together. We'd walk into
Speaker 2: bookstores and these huge cutouts of Taj on the front
Speaker 2: holding your surfboard, and just all those little things. I
Speaker 2: just love the because anything you do right, you go
Speaker 2: and do something with the major talent, you think that's
Speaker 2: easy to get those people, every single person has to
Speaker 2: be onboarded one by one, and so I just realized
Speaker 2: that I liked pulling things together and making sure that
Speaker 2: the economics work, making sure you've got some of the
Speaker 2: audience likes something the talent likes. I just love that
Speaker 2: part of it.
Speaker 1: So and I guess for the posts of this show,
Speaker 1: like economics is probably not where I want to go
Speaker 1: because Okay, but I personally love the economics. I love
Speaker 1: the fact that you make money out of it. But
Speaker 1: for the purpose of this show, I think was really
Speaker 1: like what I'm getting from you, because I've done a
Speaker 1: little bit of looking at some of the stuff you've
Speaker 1: done on YouTube and Instagram various. I thinks I think
Speaker 1: it might be being slightly modest when you say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I like putting it together, being able to
Speaker 1: just in a position to identify day one some of
Speaker 1: like taj borrows and by the way, this just goes
Speaker 1: through the future of what you've done, especially with a
Speaker 1: stab and all some of the stunts you've done. My
Speaker 1: gut feeling is your real talent or the talent that
Speaker 1: you've used. It's really amazing you're successful in things that
Speaker 1: you're doing. Is your ability to market, your ability to
Speaker 1: come up with cool stuff that shit everybody wants to
Speaker 1: have to look at like the shaping competition stab in
Speaker 1: the Dark. Yeah, and you know I nearly did today.
Speaker 1: I fucking forgot. I got a T shirt at home
Speaker 1: and it says Insula Marris. It's really really old T
Speaker 1: shirt and it's actually this year fifty year anniversary of
Speaker 1: this T shirt made of mine who lives up in
Speaker 1: Balana now. His name is Steve White White and who
Speaker 1: and I in fifteen we set up a shape board
Speaker 1: shaping business called Insula Marus Island of the Sea. And
Speaker 1: the reason I know we called an Instina marks because
Speaker 1: I was doing Latin at school. Stupid is subject in
Speaker 1: the world. But I did it and HC and so
Speaker 1: I said, called instament. We shade boards, and we sued
Speaker 1: to sell them ourselves and we sell them to blakes
Speaker 1: we knew. And I actually had the two shirt on
Speaker 1: this morning because I put on some because it's right
Speaker 1: around now is the fiftiethh versa. I pulled out of
Speaker 1: the drawer and so coincidentally, I'm going to meet you today,
Speaker 1: So you know, it was just a coincidence. But and
Speaker 1: I was, and I was going to bring it in
Speaker 1: and show it to you, and I was going to
Speaker 1: get your sign actually, but it was, and you know
Speaker 1: board shaping, especially when you know you ran the you
Speaker 1: know the I call it a stunt, but very successful one,
Speaker 1: very successful. And there the other stunt that that I
Speaker 1: want to talk about a minute, but the one where
Speaker 1: you get that floating mat and they jump off the
Speaker 1: mat and onto the board. That's so fucking cool visually, yes,
Speaker 1: So where what where does where do those unreal ideas
Speaker 1: come from? Like like they're actually unreal ideas. It's how
Speaker 1: do you think of this ship?
Speaker 2: Well, it's like anything so some of the parts right,
Speaker 2: So it's not just me, but there's just well, so
Speaker 2: we've done a couple of these things. So we did
Speaker 2: one with a guy. We put just a flare the
Speaker 2: flea you have when you're in trouble at sea on
Speaker 2: the on the back of the surfboard, just put it
Speaker 2: through the leash plug and then surfed at night. I
Speaker 2: don't know where you saw that one. So it's like
Speaker 2: surfing at night with his curfac called Bruce Irons. It's
Speaker 2: all lit up and red in the tube. And that
Speaker 2: that was our sort of big, first, big viral shoot,
Speaker 2: and we got into those viral shoots for a long time.
Speaker 2: And then the one you're referencing the one the dock,
Speaker 2: the big floating dock. Yes. So I was living in
Speaker 2: la and one of my really good friends he lives
Speaker 2: over there as well. He's from Newcastle and he's the
Speaker 2: skipper on James Packers boats. So is his name Chris
Speaker 2: Chris Tom Tom Yeah, And I was say like, hey,
Speaker 2: we've got this idea. Is they probably got a mat Yeah,
Speaker 2: And they're just so forensic on detail, those guys, right,
Speaker 2: the boat guys, And I'm sloppy. He's super organized. And
Speaker 2: so he went to work on this thing for six months.
Speaker 2: He found the company in Canada because it's just it's
Speaker 2: just a floating pontoons. And he said, and because it's
Speaker 2: I don't know what they ever saw it's used for.
Speaker 2: The one use we saw was in a sort of
Speaker 2: It was when people come off boats and there's a
Speaker 2: tiny bit of swell. As people walking down, you see
Speaker 2: a tiny little wave run under it, And well that
Speaker 2: could work in the ocean. And if we just anchor
Speaker 2: that off a boat, we can have guys run along
Speaker 2: and then jump under the wave and ride the wave.
Speaker 2: And so they.
Speaker 1: Run along with the board and under the under their arm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and really difficult to do because you can't tell.
Speaker 2: But it sits about a foot out of the water.
Speaker 2: So and it's as that thick as it. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: really thick, and it's really hard. So it's unforgiving, especially
Speaker 2: when you kind of got the ocean and a significant
Speaker 2: swell coming at you. But he did all the work
Speaker 2: on it, and so he's like, oh, can I have
Speaker 2: two grand to buy this special rope? And then it
Speaker 2: built the sort of the infrastructures required to attach it
Speaker 2: to a boat. And then because when a wave hits
Speaker 2: it, it has so much power and the things one hundred
Speaker 2: feet long.
Speaker 1: That long is it? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Wow, we probably didn't need to make that long, but
Speaker 2: that's you know, it's like you get that many cubes
Speaker 2: you put them together. Yeah. So we shot that in
Speaker 2: Bali and we launched a Banoa harbor. It took us
Speaker 2: We got there at four in the morning. It took
Speaker 2: us four and a half hours to go down the
Speaker 2: coast to get to where we need to go. And
Speaker 2: then we got there. The surfaces we went there with
Speaker 2: we just there were waves down the beach and we
Speaker 2: were just out of the back and they were just
Speaker 2: ignoring us. And it was really frustrating for a time,
Speaker 2: and then like all those things, you don't think they're
Speaker 2: going to work, and it's just the kind of trials
Speaker 2: and tribulations you work through it, you work out how
Speaker 2: to do it, and then when it comes together, the
Speaker 2: feeling is extraordinary.
Speaker 1: But again you're being pretty modest, Like it's, as you said,
Speaker 1: some of the parts, but the idea, like the very
Speaker 1: very concept and the fact that you thought you might
Speaker 1: be able to put it together. I mean, do you
Speaker 1: remember where you were sitting or what you were doing
Speaker 1: when you come up with just let's talk about the
Speaker 1: floating mat or the mat that floats on top. Where
Speaker 1: were you? It's just and why did you do it? Like?
Speaker 1: What was the purpose?
Speaker 2: We kind of went into this this stunt space because
Speaker 2: it was it kind of became a part of our
Speaker 2: DNA and we really try to do these things that
Speaker 2: hadn't been done before.
Speaker 1: But did someone Richard Brandson spy Like that's brand's a
Speaker 1: big thing, stunts Virgin Virgin. But he built Virgin's brand
Speaker 1: by doing stunts, crazy shit like you know, driving a
Speaker 1: tank down the middle of forever, you know, like really
Speaker 1: crazy shit stuff that most of us wouldn't think I
Speaker 1: just wouldn't think about like did you get inspired by
Speaker 1: someone like him?
Speaker 2: We used there used to be this website called it
Speaker 2: was called jown. It was like all these it was
Speaker 2: like four j's and O U N D jown And
Speaker 2: we used to scroll that thing and used to have
Speaker 2: just weird images and we try to get inspiration from
Speaker 2: this thing. So the the Flare shoot one was just
Speaker 2: from McCarney west film clip a little kid runing along
Speaker 2: with a flare, so like we could put that on surfboard.
Speaker 1: But did you see that on jown?
Speaker 2: That one wasn't on jown.
Speaker 1: No, So you're seeing when you see the candy of
Speaker 1: West video, what's how do you trains translate that from
Speaker 1: looking at VID and go fuck, I could do that
Speaker 1: putting on a bank of surfboard.
Speaker 2: That's everything we do is sort of bringing it from
Speaker 2: outside surfing into surfing. So like the surfboard, when you
Speaker 2: talk about the Stab in the dark, it's kind of
Speaker 2: the master chef of surfboards. Yeah, it's no difference. I
Speaker 2: don't know, Australian idol of surfboards.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sort of like there's always an appropriation of
Speaker 2: bringing to surfing so that's how kind of tackled it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so the doc one, someone said we should
Speaker 2: do that and get stand up paddle boards and see
Speaker 2: if you can run and jump, and like then we'd
Speaker 2: seen that clip of that one floating with the tourist
Speaker 2: running down up falling over, and we're like, okay, let's
Speaker 2: join those two ideas together. And then a lot of
Speaker 2: ideas we do aren't that great. Like we went to
Speaker 2: what we thought would be really cool. We went to
Speaker 2: Indonesia and we thought, what if we put a thousand
Speaker 2: ping pong balls and someone's standing at tube and it's
Speaker 2: ping pong balls all around around the tube. You're serving
Speaker 2: in the tube serving job, and there's just all ping
Speaker 2: pong balls around it like an art installation that we tried.
Speaker 2: It was a failure, and then we spent entire day
Speaker 2: cleaning up the ping pong balls after it didn't work.
Speaker 1: Because then, so the because the stuff I love of
Speaker 1: it is like the ones that work anyway is one
Speaker 1: coming up with the idea. And I guess what you're
Speaker 1: saying is like you sort of sitting around and you
Speaker 1: sort of collab with your mates, like you you're all
Speaker 1: smoking a bomb or what's going on? Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: where this shit come from?
Speaker 2: Here?
Speaker 1: There is a nighttime or white.
Speaker 2: That friend doesn't drink anymore. Actually, yeah, we.
Speaker 1: Were just talking, just young blokes haveing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just talked to a friend. I said,
Speaker 2: do you think this is possible? This floating doc one?
Speaker 2: And everything we do we try to find a sponsor
Speaker 2: to fund it. So the DOC one, I have a
Speaker 2: bit another business parner also named Tom, and we really
Speaker 2: wanted to pitch it to a brand called Volcom. I
Speaker 2: pitched it twice and they didn't get it. And I said, Tom,
Speaker 2: we've got to do this idea. It's going to be
Speaker 2: really really big. And he's like, just read the room.
Speaker 2: They're not interested. I said, give me one last shot
Speaker 2: at it. He's like, just dianet. And so we go
Speaker 2: to this meeting and I said, I think the deal
Speaker 2: was sixty or ninety year the US. I don't know
Speaker 2: what the number was, but one of those numbers. And
Speaker 2: I said to them, if you don't, if we don't
Speaker 2: get a million views in the first seven days to Volcom,
Speaker 2: to Volcom, it'll be free.
Speaker 1: You're not going to charge them. In other words, they
Speaker 1: can be this wants for nothing.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, and you won't have to pay And they
Speaker 2: looked at me like, what do you mean. I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm so confident about this idea. I think this is
Speaker 2: the best idea.
Speaker 1: Of ever, so there's no downside farm yeah, and.
Speaker 2: They were you serious? I said, yeah, I think this
Speaker 2: is really big.
Speaker 1: And they're like, okay, it's a no brainer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then we dropped it and hit a million
Speaker 2: views in six hours or something and it just caught
Speaker 2: on fire. And interestingly, did you ask him for a double?
Speaker 1: If you forget double, if you're too because you have
Speaker 1: two million now I got two million in a day something?
Speaker 1: Did pay double or they still just gave you the sixty?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just got whatever it was. We're just happy
Speaker 2: that it did well and it connected and they backed us.
Speaker 2: But interestingly, we got so much. The accolades we got
Speaker 2: from that were incredible. But you show up at Monday
Speaker 2: Monday morning the next week, go to work and your
Speaker 2: business is still It doesn't help your business at all.
Speaker 2: It's not like you have this cash just coming through
Speaker 2: the door. And that was the last one of like, hey,
Speaker 2: no more of these big viral shoots. It's because it's
Speaker 2: not a business model. It's really nice to get a
Speaker 2: spike like that, but then how long do you have
Speaker 2: the next one? And it's you can't build a business
Speaker 2: from it.
Speaker 1: That's as interesting. So I'm glad you raise that because
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, like I, what was
Speaker 1: the driver of let's call it the stunts. But the
Speaker 1: driver of the stunts was that I will do this
Speaker 1: stunt because I reckon I can get welcome to a sponsorship.
Speaker 1: Was in other words, I will design a stunt so
Speaker 1: that I can get some sponsorship from somebody, hopefully covers
Speaker 1: my costs, and make some money out of it. Or
Speaker 1: was the driver of the idea I want to do
Speaker 1: this no matter what, but I need I make in
Speaker 1: order to make work, I need to get a sponsor.
Speaker 1: Was it about getting sponsor first? It was about I
Speaker 1: just need to get this thing done.
Speaker 2: It's kind of yes to both. Yeah. Yeah, it's well,
Speaker 2: we would like anything. We were. We're the last to
Speaker 2: market in terms of magazines, up up against all the
Speaker 2: big players draw MESSTAB now, yeah, so we just wanted
Speaker 2: to come in and have a point of difference, and
Speaker 2: so we wanted out. We wanted to the look and
Speaker 2: feel it to be completely different.
Speaker 1: So how did you elaborate they had to fit into
Speaker 1: these things like so like, for example, the let's talk
Speaker 1: of the mat, how do STAB fit into that relative
Speaker 1: to say the sponsor so brought to you buyo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's just the Volcan logo at the front.
Speaker 2: And then all the surfers who are running off the dock,
Speaker 2: they're all sponsored by Vulcan. They've got Volcan stickers on
Speaker 2: their boards and volcum on their clothing. And then though
Speaker 2: and Volcan can run all of those assets on in
Speaker 2: perpetuity across all of their channels. So you run on
Speaker 2: their website, posters, billboards, whatever turned outs how a deal works.
Speaker 1: But how did how did STAB get a benefit of that?
Speaker 1: How did the magazine get the benefit from that?
Speaker 2: So the magazine would have the photos, we'd run that
Speaker 2: in print and then we'd put the film online and
Speaker 2: then all of those.
Speaker 1: Assets would just content. Yeah, more content.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we just wanted to when you we just
Speaker 2: wanted to a point of difference. So everything we try to
Speaker 2: do would be the gold standard of storytelling is tell
Speaker 2: me something I don't know and sort of like show
Speaker 2: me something you haven't seen. Yeah, So that's what we're
Speaker 2: trying to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it really does come into storytelling, yes, And
Speaker 1: so when did you learn like you learned? I mean
Speaker 1: you worked your dad's baab. You you learn how to
Speaker 1: look at the difference between money coming in and money going out.
Speaker 1: Then you worked at the magazine. Then you went upstairs
Speaker 1: and you started looking learn about the corporate stoff. But
Speaker 1: where did you get into your head it's about storytel
Speaker 1: because you're in your twenties, how did you understand the
Speaker 1: storytelling is such an important part of running a business,
Speaker 1: especially a new business in a competitive environment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think I actually connected the dots back then.
Speaker 2: I sort of knew what we wanted to do and
Speaker 2: how we're trying to do it, and we're trying to
Speaker 2: be world class and try to create these big moments,
Speaker 2: and I knew that like a big name and a
Speaker 2: big idea, that's what connects.
Speaker 1: Yeah, two basic fundamentals. Yeah, but no more articulated, not sophisticated.
Speaker 2: Now I kind of truly know what connects in storytelling,
Speaker 2: but it's takes me a long time.
Speaker 1: So what would you say connects and storytelling from your successes,
Speaker 1: what are the sort of main elements I.
Speaker 2: Think just storytelling. What I want is tell me something
Speaker 2: I don't know, really yeah, and me something yeah yeah
Speaker 2: yeah uh. And I think if you if you can
Speaker 2: kind of whatever lane, your whatever space you're in, if
Speaker 2: you can be the expert sort of authoritating voice in
Speaker 2: that in that space, I think it gives you a
Speaker 2: good chance of success.
Speaker 1: How important is though, is the theater of it though
Speaker 1: at one the theater, but also prankishness, some amend it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, having fun with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you can call it a prank or a gimmick,
Speaker 2: or you can call it art. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that's important. I think you need to have
Speaker 2: that high production value, Like I think that really connects
Speaker 2: with an audience. If you put if you kind of
Speaker 2: go and make.
Speaker 1: The you mean your actual production that's well put together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well put together. And it's like that doc video
Speaker 2: it was a complete shit show. But I think when
Speaker 2: you watch it looks really slick.
Speaker 1: Yeah it does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it some but that's all is that in
Speaker 2: the edit? Yeah, that's all in the edit. Yeah. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I think when it comes out it needs to have
Speaker 2: that level of quality.
Speaker 1: It's a bit like this, this show I mean to
Speaker 1: be honest, like you know, like I don't know what
Speaker 1: sort of material I give our editors, but like they
Speaker 1: always make it look fantastic.
Speaker 2: You know, you had the show up mentality. Yeah, I've
Speaker 2: been listening a lot, and you just show.
Speaker 1: Up totally and then they make it all look good.
Speaker 1: And then what they'll do is say someone like this,
Speaker 1: for example, they make it interesting because one of the
Speaker 1: reason I'm talking about this stuff because they'll grab drag
Speaker 1: that stuff and they'll put it in somehow, They'll they'll
Speaker 1: bring it into the primos, et cetera. Yes, so that
Speaker 1: and it's a really good vision. So it's about the
Speaker 1: production quality at the end of the day. But I've
Speaker 1: got to give them the production quality. I've got to
Speaker 1: give them an on trade of the production quality through you, right,
Speaker 1: so Pie, Yeah, so, and and I guess that's like
Speaker 1: all storytelling and all theater. A theater is always about
Speaker 1: that stuff. It's about color, light, movement, you know, vibrancy.
Speaker 1: Whether it's a prank or it doesn't really matter, but
Speaker 1: it's it's got to have energy in it. It's got
Speaker 1: to have energy, must have energy in it. And I
Speaker 1: think your stuff's always got energy in it. And I
Speaker 1: don't know whether you thought about that at the time.
Speaker 1: It mind you, when young people do stuff a lot
Speaker 1: of times it's got fucking energy in it, just naturally
Speaker 1: because they take risks.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's there is something about start getting into
Speaker 2: business early and taking risks and making ow mistakes early
Speaker 2: when you don't have mortgages of dogs lose. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: really doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: But because I think the audience, if you pull it off,
Speaker 1: they like to see that. They like to see the
Speaker 1: risk taking. Yes, you know, and they because it's generally speaking,
Speaker 1: something that some wouldn't do themselves. And you know, you know,
Speaker 1: like I know everyone in my in this mental mental
Speaker 1: structural business, everyone's under thirty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen and.
Speaker 1: And I do it on purpose because they will take
Speaker 1: more risks than I would ordinarily even think about it.
Speaker 1: I just have to come sort of be the so
Speaker 1: called talent, with the other talent in this case being you.
Speaker 1: But the rest of us then young.
Speaker 2: People, you don't have to worry about how it shows
Speaker 2: up on you, Sube, by how far shows up in TikTok,
Speaker 2: that's all, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, just as long as my old So now you're forty,
Speaker 1: what forty forty six. Are you different today to what
Speaker 1: you were when you How different are you to when
Speaker 1: you were in your twenties? You're more aligned to the
Speaker 1: economics of things than you were than you are than
Speaker 1: you were to just getting the thing out and done
Speaker 1: and produced.
Speaker 2: No, I still love the economic site of it is whatever.
Speaker 2: I love the just having really a really good product,
Speaker 2: and no matter what, I'll just always try to go
Speaker 2: for the best product.
Speaker 1: So what about risk?
Speaker 2: Then? I love risk. I love it. I love getting
Speaker 2: I love being up against the wall. It's my favorite place.
Speaker 1: Is it because you're best then yeah? Yeah, you need so,
Speaker 1: you need pressure to create something.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We did a that's that's my favorite place. Actually,
Speaker 2: we did a sort of a big air contest at
Speaker 2: a wavepool in Texas. We do one. We're actually the
Speaker 2: guys are there right now. We're doing one in June
Speaker 2: in Japan. But it goes around in a way pool
Speaker 2: and yeah, but the first one we do was in Texas.
Speaker 2: Met this Texan rancher, amazing guy. Very Texans and Australians
Speaker 2: are quite similar actually, and we went to this wavepool
Speaker 2: had this amazing air so he.
Speaker 1: Got his own waypool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool. It was really cool. And the thing
Speaker 2: about surf contest, the thing that makes them so difficult
Speaker 2: is you can't They don't start four o'clock on a Saturday.
Speaker 2: They start when mother Nature shows up. So I really
Speaker 2: liked the idea of having these events. But we did
Speaker 2: this one. It was like one hundred and twenty grand
Speaker 2: for the pool us. We're talking one hundred grand for broadcast,
Speaker 2: and we just nickeled and died to try to have
Speaker 2: this event. The guy let us pay the day after
Speaker 2: the event, so let us get ticket sales and pay
Speaker 2: per view sales and max out our credit cards on
Speaker 2: the seventy five grand off a friend, and just that.
Speaker 2: They're the sort of things that have made STAB what
Speaker 2: it is like. They're just these these moments where like, shit,
Speaker 2: I hope this thing works, and then it turns out
Speaker 2: to be one of the big pillars of what we
Speaker 2: do now.
Speaker 1: And if I could just go back to STAB now, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I guess we're going back to a period when
Speaker 1: magazines were paper. Was it similar to Tracks, which Tracks
Speaker 1: was like a dirty, old, get fucking printed on your
Speaker 1: finger type magazine. The only two magazines that I remember
Speaker 1: during that period. I'm not stabished so much. I'm talking
Speaker 1: about the seventies when I was, when I was buying
Speaker 1: Tracks magazine, there was there was a glossy surfing magazine
Speaker 1: called Surfing Australia or Australia Surfing or something like that,
Speaker 1: Surfing Life something like that was a glossy but it
Speaker 1: was a bit too it fucking expensive for me. Tracks
Speaker 1: was a bit more affordable. But the two magazines that
Speaker 1: were affordable with were a magazine called Ryebald, which is
Speaker 1: a dirty, filthy magazine, like for young teenagers and young guys,
Speaker 1: you're just looking at chicks and naked and stuff. And
Speaker 1: the other one was Tracks, but it was it was
Speaker 1: sort of like gritty gritty paper, right. It was a
Speaker 1: big It was a big format. The Tracks was both
Speaker 1: originally big format, like did you what format did you
Speaker 1: have when you could stab out?
Speaker 2: Oh, we're just like glossy a yeah, perfect bound with
Speaker 2: the spine, yeah yeah, player and yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah and so like and like proper photographs, proper
Speaker 1: photography involved.
Speaker 2: Very expensive produced market and be very expensive to advertising.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but it worked, Yeah, it worked, it was.
Speaker 2: But for us, success came once we went digital because
Speaker 2: it opened up an international market as opposed to domestic market, right, So.
Speaker 1: But in terms of selling your magazine, just through those days,
Speaker 1: we've been through news agencies, yes, not online, yes, all
Speaker 1: news agents BA. So you had to sort of hustle
Speaker 1: to get your magazine next door to whatever else tracks
Speaker 1: and make sure the right spot and then and then
Speaker 1: so the digital world then came about, and of course
Speaker 1: you can then sort of basically exports your magazine and
Speaker 1: other places. How did you do that? Did you go
Speaker 1: and get pro surfers to be part of the promotion,
Speaker 1: like you sponsor them?
Speaker 2: Interestingly, So I had a guy start working with us,
Speaker 2: a guy named Tom burd So he come from Fairfax.
Speaker 2: He adspace for Fairfax and he came on in the
Speaker 2: GFC here and I was all about print and he's like, hey,
Speaker 2: we need to get on this digital thing. I started
Speaker 2: a thing, so oh cool, that's good, but I'm going
Speaker 2: to stick to print. And he said, you're out of
Speaker 2: your mind. I said, well, I just think this is
Speaker 2: going to be I think just winning to double down
Speaker 2: on this. And he's and he's doing really well. He'd
Speaker 2: like he'd gone through the contacts form of saying for
Speaker 2: Nike on their website and then Nike wanted our really
Speaker 2: big clients and just really good at what he does
Speaker 2: advertising advertising, well, more like a master of the soft sciences,
Speaker 2: like those guys who are brilliant reading people, real people,
Speaker 2: sort of those those people who just people warm too.
Speaker 2: One of those kind of guys always on the client side,
Speaker 2: not the stab side, which is really good to have.
Speaker 2: Because he was yeah, and he said, well, I'm out,
Speaker 2: and I said, what do you mean. He goes, I'm leaving.
Speaker 2: I said, I want one hundred grand for a website.
Speaker 2: Otherwise I'm out. And I was like, it's just not
Speaker 2: a good time, Tom. He goes, just trust me, I'll
Speaker 2: get this thing paid for. And so he goes, I
Speaker 2: want to gave him one hundred Grund had the website built.
Speaker 2: We put a lot of time into the content and
Speaker 2: kind of made it was sort of rather bean after thought.
Speaker 2: It was a focus for us, put someone full time
Speaker 2: on it, and then he paid for the site in
Speaker 2: six weeks and then all of a sudden advertising yeah wow,
Speaker 2: and then it just flew.
Speaker 1: But how did you promote that? Had someone in America?
Speaker 1: How did someone in California find out about your magazine?
Speaker 2: We're never overtly Australian. So we just wanted to sort
Speaker 2: of connect with whoever's world class, world class photographer, surfar cinematographer.
Speaker 2: So it didn't you didn't really know where this thing
Speaker 2: had come from. And so lots of Americans, lots of Brazilians,
Speaker 2: lots of Europeans, and so when we went digital, it
Speaker 2: just opened up a whole new market.
Speaker 1: But what are they going to talk about it? So
Speaker 1: like if I'm if I'm sitting in Brazil or wherever,
Speaker 1: and there's got to be a name in there that
Speaker 1: I recognize, or a board or a support shape, or
Speaker 1: there's got to be a break or something that I
Speaker 1: recognize as a Brazilian. Like that's a global thing. What
Speaker 1: worked for your best well pretty much the talent. The talent, yeah, people, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the people. So like for example, like a Philips Alito
Speaker 1: from Brazil, how do you preach approach him?
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: Do you have to pay him?
Speaker 2: No, we don't. It's getting more and it's the sort
Speaker 2: of with the demise of the surf industry, which we
Speaker 2: probably get to at a point the service aren't on
Speaker 2: what they were on. So I don't know whether that
Speaker 2: will last for ever for us where we don't pay talent.
Speaker 2: Because we pay talent, we put and then we put
Speaker 2: them in films. We sell those films. So but for
Speaker 2: the meantime, it's more beneficial for their sponsors to be
Speaker 2: in STAB and getting exposure, right.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So so the great talent will agree to
Speaker 1: do it because somewhere in there he will sure is
Speaker 1: going to have some of the sponsors stuff written on
Speaker 1: their board.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're incentivized to be to be in there.
Speaker 1: Yes, and so because yeah, that makes sense because their
Speaker 1: game is to appear in as many broadcasts as possible. Yes,
Speaker 1: and in which case you're a broadcaster. Yes, three magazine,
Speaker 1: online magazine, so it's broadcasting, so that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we do this Surf through the Year poll.
Speaker 2: If you do well in that, you get you get
Speaker 2: bonuses back in the day, if you get a cover,
Speaker 2: you get a ten or twenty grand bonus on stabs.
Speaker 2: So those things, there's different incentives for these guys.
Speaker 1: And do Australian surfers resonate around the world, Yes, as
Speaker 1: well as other countries resonate here. Australian surfers, Yeah, are
Speaker 1: the best of the best. Are they examples at.
Speaker 2: The moment ethan Ewing is extraordinary. Obviously have Steph Gilmore,
Speaker 2: Mick founding John Parkinson, but ethan Ewing is our big
Speaker 2: shot at the world title. He will likely win the
Speaker 2: world title this year.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And who's the craziest out of all of them?
Speaker 2: Crazy? Out of all the subjects?
Speaker 1: Deal with?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I've I've hung out with the crazies.
Speaker 2: I used to serve with the guys from a River
Speaker 2: a lot. They were crazy. Mark Matthews is crazy. Kobe
Speaker 2: Happenan's crazy, the next generation.
Speaker 1: There's Kobe's living in Balle's where's he living now?
Speaker 2: He's in Bali.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a guy from the south coast of New
Speaker 2: South Wales, Russ Bierky. He's crazy, probably crazy. I keep
Speaker 2: saying we're crazy, but yeah he's.
Speaker 1: What were you around Rodkers period from Bondo?
Speaker 2: No, well I know, but yeah, yeah, yeah, he's he's crazy.
Speaker 2: He's a wild one.
Speaker 1: That was at his wedding on now Yeah. Yeah, Actually
Speaker 1: he was going to get married many many many minutes ago.
Speaker 1: No district of his current wife, but and he was
Speaker 1: going to and he's going to get married with my
Speaker 1: farm and Byron. The wedding's going to be there and
Speaker 1: then I remember you me up and said, mate, wedding's off.
Speaker 1: This is like he had he was engaged with God
Speaker 1: on Perth. Yeah, do you remember that. It was a
Speaker 1: fucking disaster. Oh my god. He's a he's a like man,
Speaker 1: he's crazy, but he's a big way surfer and very
Speaker 1: good at like sort of pretty feelers.
Speaker 2: When you're out on the surf and you see like
Speaker 2: a black line coming sort of like comes, it comes up,
Speaker 2: it looks like it kind of covers the horizon. You
Speaker 2: see these things come in and your natural instinct just
Speaker 2: paddle out. Yeah, and they just see it. They hold
Speaker 2: they just go in a little bit and it's frightening,
Speaker 2: like you surely you can't be looking at this. They
Speaker 2: look They put their head down and get this look
Speaker 2: in their eye and spin and go. It's so confronting.
Speaker 1: What do you think then, what's the makeup of these people?
Speaker 2: Like? Uh, someone like Kobe, I think he's just crazy.
Speaker 2: And then someone like I don't know whether you know
Speaker 2: if we're going, named Mark Matthews. He is more. He
Speaker 2: tries to make a formula for fear. So he sits
Speaker 2: there and he's like, look up in his eyelids up
Speaker 2: and just calms down, breathes through his nose and then
Speaker 2: this chills everything out. And yeah, everyone's different, but yeah,
Speaker 2: they just have this I don't know whether they fear less,
Speaker 2: but they just have this appetite for risk. But it's
Speaker 2: astonishing to watch.
Speaker 1: But some people would say those guys, for example, some
Speaker 1: of those guys would say Sam Macintosh, like it's pretty weird,
Speaker 1: like he has this mad appetite for risk in relation
Speaker 1: to business or just doing some of the shit that
Speaker 1: you've done. I mean, do you really actually see this
Speaker 1: much difference? The techniques are difference different and the platform
Speaker 1: they work on is different, but the process and the
Speaker 1: outcome are the same in that we all choose to
Speaker 1: be to take not all of us, but people take
Speaker 1: Some people choose to take risks in certain areas and
Speaker 1: are able to manage that risk, that risk taking, all
Speaker 1: that fear of taking the risk. I mean you do
Speaker 1: it in business. We're doing a business. Maybe now some
Speaker 1: more plain sailing, but then you know, back then.
Speaker 2: I guess it's you'd be the same. There's there's situations
Speaker 2: that you'd be really comfortable in that some people are uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: And then vice versa.
Speaker 1: Right, So why why in your case is so you're
Speaker 1: saying the same thing. So why do you think in
Speaker 1: your case business risk is not really that bigger risk.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not a bigger deal. Just like some
Speaker 1: of these guys serve these huge waves, they alsoay it's
Speaker 1: no big deal, you know, for anyone else seeing this
Speaker 1: black wall coming up.
Speaker 2: And yeah, there is a sort of there is a correlation,
Speaker 2: for sure. I like big waves, not to that level,
Speaker 2: but I really like big surf and there isn't a
Speaker 2: there isn't adrenaline that comes with it. And so you
Speaker 2: love your you like the adrenaline, Yeah, I love it. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love getting I love getting hurt in the surf.
Speaker 2: But when it's not really bad injuries.
Speaker 1: It's not going to kill you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like those ones. Yeah, but it's it's like
Speaker 2: the feeling of going out, getting washed around, getting cut
Speaker 2: up and blood coming out of you. I just it
Speaker 2: feels I don't know, that's when I feel most life.
Speaker 1: But what do you think that fucking is?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: I like it in business too, by the way.
Speaker 2: It's a good.
Speaker 1: Feeling, right, yeah, I mean like people you say, well,
Speaker 1: you get in the boxing ring. I actually like getting hit.
Speaker 1: I mean to give a fuck and I want to
Speaker 1: does it hurt that doesn't know that much? And now
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you some back, like I enjoy it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's more a little bit. I don't do it these
Speaker 1: days because you know, you get brain evage. I'm getting
Speaker 1: older and stuff too, But I used to love its,
Speaker 1: like just I don't care fucking throw a punch of that, like,
Speaker 1: go for it. It's a weird destruct Do you think
Speaker 1: it's a self destruct thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just yeah, there's something about that,
Speaker 2: the heart wreck coming up, and that it almost gives
Speaker 2: you this kind of I don't know, sort of kevlar
Speaker 2: around you or something, and you kind of it's good
Speaker 2: to just get pushed your elements, like push your limits
Speaker 2: a little bit. I don't know what it is. I
Speaker 2: can't articulate it, but I do like it.
Speaker 1: Because you see these people climbing a rock face without
Speaker 1: any gear on them, leave no ropes and shit, and
Speaker 1: I thought, every think, what the fuck, Like you're off
Speaker 1: your head like crazy, like I can just imagine I
Speaker 1: can imagine my grip losing my grip from fear your
Speaker 1: strength sort of disappearing and then then you're fucking four.
Speaker 1: I ask you, such a rush, and I think that's
Speaker 1: part of it, Like it's the rush. And there's not
Speaker 1: that many people who do this in their lives, Like
Speaker 1: would you recommend? Do you reckon? You could have survived,
Speaker 1: had a good life without having done these things.
Speaker 2: I don't think I'd be in business, know without the risk,
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. It was and like we've never we've never
Speaker 2: had any outside money, unstable, any investment from anyone, so
Speaker 2: kind of happened, had to answer to anyone. So you
Speaker 2: can kind of make irrational bets. And that's what I
Speaker 2: like about it. And it's you, it's only on you.
Speaker 2: Then you can just it's all about the execution. And
Speaker 2: then so I do. I do love the irrational bets.
Speaker 2: So how long would you own stabboard before you sold us?
Speaker 1: So like you sold stam and you brought it back,
Speaker 1: but like how long would you own stab for?
Speaker 2: For eleven years? Ten or eleven years? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And you were how we when you started like twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five?
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, twenty five. I sat it thirty five
Speaker 2: or thirty six? And who'd you sell it? To? Sort
Speaker 2: it to surf stitch online retailer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the retailer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they had this big plan to weave content
Speaker 2: and commerce together, right yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of like a convergence of the two. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: sort of use the magazine to promote their own brand
Speaker 1: as well, and hopefully the magazine makes money. So presume
Speaker 1: it was profitable when they bought it. Yes, so they
Speaker 1: bought a profitable business merging into their business. You're going
Speaker 1: to use this profitable business to build an audience who's
Speaker 1: who's their audience, were part of the audience who buy
Speaker 1: stuff from them, and then advertise to that audience as
Speaker 1: well through the magazine. Yeah, that was a theory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the line with the CEOs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably what he said to you when he was
Speaker 1: saying with this were doing. Did you stay on when
Speaker 1: you sold it?
Speaker 2: I did? Yeah, so I my shares were investing, so
Speaker 2: you get to kind of get the chunk and then
Speaker 2: shares vested, and so part of my dealers. I moved
Speaker 2: to the US. My shares vested early, so I moved
Speaker 2: to the US.
Speaker 1: They to open up a store, opened up the business
Speaker 1: in the US.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the surf Stitch in the US.
Speaker 1: No, No, but.
Speaker 2: They had an online retail over there called Swell Right,
Speaker 2: and so I was sort of working on Swell, working
Speaker 2: on stab over there, and then the ceo, Justin Cameron,
Speaker 2: he bailed and then a new CEO came in and
Speaker 2: he didn't like the strategy. That's when we got unloaded.
Speaker 1: But you brought it back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we got really lucky. So we tried really hard
Speaker 2: on the broader business. They are quite a bunch of
Speaker 2: quite a bunch of different businesses at that point, and
Speaker 2: a lot of those founders took the cash and pailed,
Speaker 2: and so when it came to the negotiation a we
Speaker 2: were then unprofitable. And then so it wasn't that easy
Speaker 2: to sell. Surf industry was sort of instructured. Declient media
Speaker 2: was obviously in structural decline, so there wasn't a cue
Speaker 2: of people down the street trying to buy surf media.
Speaker 2: And then we mean a game for so long we
Speaker 2: kind of knew any potential suitors, my partner and I,
Speaker 2: and so we started buying the phones, like, hey, if
Speaker 2: this thing gets bundled up and you buy this thing,
Speaker 2: we're not we're not involved to so you know that
Speaker 2: anything loses money and so.
Speaker 1: Which means that turn turn them turn them away straight away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you sort of like condition the market a little
Speaker 1: bit maybe yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so then then it was we had the
Speaker 2: opportunity to buy it back. But tom my partner was like,
Speaker 2: let's just get this thing done. Let's put a let's
Speaker 2: put a let's put an offer, and I'm just hold, oh,
Speaker 2: just relax. We're going to get this thing back. We're
Speaker 2: going to get it back, which is stressful because if
Speaker 2: you hadn't lost it for a small fee, like a
Speaker 2: small sonomenal sum, would be frustrating. But yeah, it all
Speaker 2: turned out in the end. It's all turned out well
Speaker 2: in the end.
Speaker 1: And just just like for my benefit, do you think
Speaker 1: that's an error of the own or the buyer who
Speaker 1: became the owner to keep in the business the two founders,
Speaker 1: because to some extent, whilst you've got paid, you're getting
Speaker 1: paid tranches, and you had effectively probably a turnout or
Speaker 1: something like that sitting at the end of it at
Speaker 1: the purchase price. And as something starts to the demise
Speaker 1: of something starts to change, the owner says, okay, want unloaded.
Speaker 1: But the problem is you've got the original founders still there.
Speaker 1: Even though the original founders don't own the shares, they're
Speaker 1: still owned the business. I mean, to a large extent,
Speaker 1: to the to the to the broader public. The broader
Speaker 1: public thinks, so ship like, these guys have been running
Speaker 1: it forever they founded it. They've been running it. Now
Speaker 1: if I buy it and they're not going to be there,
Speaker 1: what am I buying.
Speaker 2: Do?
Speaker 1: That's an error from the buyer dash owner's point of view.
Speaker 2: So so you mean on the person buying it from
Speaker 2: surf stage, Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, person buying it from you have you stay there
Speaker 1: as a founder and then getting in to a position
Speaker 1: where they wanted to resell it or sell it if
Speaker 1: you're not going to be a go alongside it. But
Speaker 1: having having had you there the whole time basically sort
Speaker 1: of kept you in that founder position, which means that
Speaker 1: if you're going to leave, a new buyer is going
Speaker 1: to say, way on, these guys are going to live
Speaker 1: there and set it up to a new one down
Speaker 1: around the corner exactly. Yeah, So it sort of it
Speaker 1: negatized the value big time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It would have been very difficult to sell.
Speaker 1: Put you in control of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we got really lucky so yeah, we did that.
Speaker 1: So you conditioned the market and then you were then
Speaker 1: did you put a consortium together to buy it or
Speaker 1: did you buy yourselves?
Speaker 2: It was a dollar Australian.
Speaker 1: Nothing because they were losing money. So basically you would
Speaker 1: just like stop the bleeding. Yeah, just take it away
Speaker 1: from us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know what it's like. You go into
Speaker 2: a bigger business, You've got to amortize their accounting, their
Speaker 2: rents and everything else. All of a sudden you got
Speaker 2: this stress on the business. We weren't running the way
Speaker 2: we wanted to run it, and so I was like,
Speaker 2: just let's just cut the bleeding as soon as we can.
Speaker 1: So what what happened? So just to explain to me
Speaker 1: what happened in the surfing world contraction of digital media
Speaker 1: or media generally speaking for surfing, What happened? Where did
Speaker 1: this contraction come from?
Speaker 2: I don't think surf media was anomally at all. I
Speaker 2: think it's just in the broader media just it went.
Speaker 2: I guess Internet, social media, YouTube, all of those those
Speaker 2: outside forces, those exogenous forces, put a pressure on media.
Speaker 1: And they are you saying that those other places like Instagram,
Speaker 1: for example, they took people away from buying the magazine
Speaker 1: because I'm getting my thrills by looking at something on
Speaker 1: Instagram for half a minute or whatever it is, reels
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be, TikTok et cetera. So
Speaker 1: therefore I don't really need to buy the magazine anymore.
Speaker 2: Well, it's twofold, so they can get the audience through
Speaker 2: your phone. And then the if you want your you're
Speaker 2: advertising efficient and measure We can't measure the efficiency of
Speaker 2: a magazine or a billboard, or you can, but it's
Speaker 2: very difficult. You can. Everything is so measurable when you
Speaker 2: do it on the phone, going through Google, Facebook, which
Speaker 2: is Instagram and everything else. So yeah, it was. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they were pretty significant headwinds. And then what's interesting is
Speaker 2: the whole time you're in business, you think you have
Speaker 2: all these enemies. And for us it was like our
Speaker 2: surfer is the enemy, surfing magazine Transworld or in Australia's
Speaker 2: Surfing World and.
Speaker 1: Tracks surfing wards when I was seeing a bat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then those magazines go away, like in America
Speaker 2: Surfer Surfing, Transworld, they are just crumbled. Yeah, the next
Speaker 2: day your business isn't any better. Yeah, it's not that
Speaker 2: you kind of realize that never the enemy, the enemy,
Speaker 2: these outside forced the market, Yeah, exactly, which was really interesting.
Speaker 1: So you went brought it back for a dollar, But like,
Speaker 1: why did you bother buying it back when you know
Speaker 1: that there's a contraction? What is it? Because you're just
Speaker 1: sort of emotionally attached to it or you didn't want
Speaker 1: to see it die.
Speaker 2: We had a plan for the future. We were kind
Speaker 2: of knew where we wanted to go. We knew, we
Speaker 2: hoped that we had a Yeah, we kind of had
Speaker 2: a business model that we thought could endure. And it's
Speaker 2: not like because the challenge with all those other magazines
Speaker 2: are owned by big publishers, so they couldn't move quickly,
Speaker 2: and it felt like they were in a tanker. We're
Speaker 2: in a zodiac and we're just zipping around and we
Speaker 2: could we could move really quickly and then we don't
Speaker 2: care about risk. So it was like spend here, spend there,
Speaker 2: don't spend here. But like we're not like we have
Speaker 2: to make this much money this year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like your you still have to get advertisers.
Speaker 1: Was the demise of STAB under the previous ownership before
Speaker 1: you before you brought it back, was it about not.
Speaker 1: Was it about having too heavy an expense relative to
Speaker 1: the revenues because the revenues had contracted because there was
Speaker 1: too many other places that advertisers could advertisement.
Speaker 2: It's it's a really good question. So the reason it
Speaker 2: failed on the surf Stitch where they were trying to
Speaker 2: build their own platform. So say you're from Hurley and
Speaker 2: we do one hundred grand deal with you at early,
Speaker 2: and you're trying to drive sales to your early online
Speaker 2: store because everyone wants direct to consume a better margin.
Speaker 2: Makes perfect sense right now. We were under instruction that
Speaker 2: if Hurley's been one hundred grand, we had to push
Speaker 2: early traffic back to surf stitch, and.
Speaker 1: How they hang on a seconding any of issues for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so all of a sudden our advertising diminished
Speaker 2: because who would do up pretty quick?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so effectively being competed on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And so we became unprofitable really quickly because
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So under the previous owners that you lost advertisers
Speaker 1: because the advertising model just didn't work. Yeah, But once
Speaker 1: you owned it, you don't have serf stitch, you're not
Speaker 1: trying to redirect traffic. You put it back into an
Speaker 1: even footing, and.
Speaker 2: Then I got the secret weapon, which is my partner
Speaker 2: who's a complete magician. So I knew we were going to
Speaker 2: be fine. Do you mean, oh, he's the guy I
Speaker 2: told you about with the soft science skills. Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: just he's always in the clade. He build a lot
Speaker 2: of trust here, will work with people. A marketing director
Speaker 2: will go from brand to brand to brand, and he'll
Speaker 2: worked them for ten fifteen years. And every place the
Speaker 2: new person goes, they call him up, we want to
Speaker 2: do a deal. And so I knew we had the
Speaker 2: best chance of success on this advertising model. That was
Speaker 2: until COVID hit.
Speaker 1: So hawd to go up, until Covid was a mega
Speaker 1: money Yeah, you reversed it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we grew five hundred percent after.
Speaker 1: I moved to the audience or percent profits well yeah,
Speaker 1: revenue revenue.
Speaker 2: By moving to the US. That that was the biggest
Speaker 2: success we'd had, which was great, and then we kind
Speaker 2: of became a major player. That was sort of we
Speaker 2: went from being at outside in Australia to an international voice.
Speaker 1: So would that be like one of the biggest magazines
Speaker 1: today surfing surfing online and serving magazines today?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the tallest mid yet yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a small business, but yeah, yeah, but yeah we would
Speaker 2: be but significant, yeah, yeah, in significant in terms.
Speaker 1: And what by the way, you mentioned COVID, what happened covid?
Speaker 2: So covid, we just like everyone else, no one you
Speaker 2: know what the future is going to hold. And then
Speaker 2: we got the calls we're out, we're out, We're out.
Speaker 2: And then that's when we went to a subscription model. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in the December twenty twenty, so monthly fee or an
Speaker 2: annual fee.
Speaker 1: And that was the because you know, I could rely
Speaker 1: upon advertisers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we weren't sure, we wanted we always wanted to
Speaker 2: do it, and it was just like the push that
Speaker 2: we needed and so that was absolutely revolutionary for what's.
Speaker 1: A monthly subscription? Is it different levels?
Speaker 2: It's monthly I think is talking US dollars sorry, maybe
Speaker 2: ten or twelve US right a month and then seventy
Speaker 2: or eighty annually.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're so, yeah, so you get discomfort doing
Speaker 1: it and paying annually. So your business mode now is
Speaker 1: people get paid subscription as opposed to you lying so
Speaker 1: heavily on advertisers. Yes, that's pretty sort of modern, you know,
Speaker 1: that's the bottom way to do things. You sort of
Speaker 1: I guess you probably are forced into doing that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we did no choice, you had to try it out anyway.
Speaker 2: But it's so much easier run a business because you
Speaker 2: can just you have a consistency, you have a better
Speaker 2: eye on cash flow. And then as a flips, I
Speaker 2: think because you get the vanity metrics of social media.
Speaker 2: So you put up a clip, you might at six
Speaker 2: million views or how many views on YouTube, which is great,
Speaker 2: but it's not always a business. And that's where the
Speaker 2: challenge we were in. And I think these surf brands
Speaker 2: that get they have really wild up and down success
Speaker 2: as well. But we're like, hey, we found the people
Speaker 2: in the world who want to put their credit card
Speaker 2: down for media. They're the ones they're way more chance
Speaker 2: of converting to being a customer as opposed to just
Speaker 2: anyone any of you you're getting on the internet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how'd you work at the price? How do you
Speaker 1: work out how much will someone pay? What's the right
Speaker 1: subscription price? I mean, did you say, well, Netflix is
Speaker 1: twenty bucks a month, so it's got to be less
Speaker 1: than there? And when how did you work get that out?
Speaker 2: We had a guy who was running the premium and
Speaker 2: he just came up with it. We kind of sounds
Speaker 2: good enough to ask, Yeah, kind of ballpark like it
Speaker 2: was in line in the US with sort of Disney Disney,
Speaker 2: what is it over there? What have we got here?
Speaker 2: We've got Binge. They're different, but Disney Netflix, it was
Speaker 2: sort of ball It sits alongside those. But it's really interesting.
Speaker 2: You go and see what Netflix spend on content a year,
Speaker 2: which is like eight billion or whatever, and wear the
Speaker 2: same price, and we spend say four US on our content.
Speaker 2: So it's just yeah, it's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: And so given the state of the US at the moment,
Speaker 1: I remember was heading towards the recession, but it looks
Speaker 1: like it's come back. It's doing pretty well. Has there
Speaker 1: been any net effect on your subscriptions post COVID that
Speaker 1: inflation period, higher rangiust rates both here and in the
Speaker 1: US or around the world generally, have you seen any
Speaker 1: change in your subscription base.
Speaker 2: We haven't. We've been lucky. We're still growing. But when
Speaker 2: you opt out, when you churn out, there's the you
Speaker 2: can sort of say the reason for leaving, and then
Speaker 2: the highest rate one is affordability.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Okay, that's what that's And it's not your affordability.
Speaker 1: It's your affordability in a whole affordability pack like everything
Speaker 1: else like cost of living, general, general living, like so
Speaker 1: I've got to cut some costs somewhere. And so do
Speaker 1: you see yourself then is stab subscription? Do you see
Speaker 1: yourself more in the surfing world surfing the people who subscribe?
Speaker 1: Would you consider yourself as a luxury or a necessity?
Speaker 1: I think we're a luxury, But can you build yourself
Speaker 1: into being a necessity? In other words, we're going to
Speaker 1: tell you shit that you need to know when it
Speaker 1: comes to do you put up on your website? Do
Speaker 1: you have like surfing additions in somewhere in America where
Speaker 1: every would likes to on surf, like you have like
Speaker 1: a you know, like the wind and the swell and
Speaker 1: you know, do you have updates?
Speaker 2: Do you when you talk about those? Like So there's
Speaker 2: surf line, right, which is cameras all around the beaches
Speaker 2: are all around the world, and surf forecasting that is
Speaker 2: more of a utility. Ours is sort of more on
Speaker 2: the entertainment side.
Speaker 1: Right, And we don't have that. You don't have the
Speaker 1: utility in there because because I was going to ask you,
Speaker 1: how do you think you can make yourself a necessity
Speaker 1: as opposed to it, let's call a luxury or a
Speaker 1: discretionary spend, in other words, non discretionary. I've got a
Speaker 1: fucking have it. Yeah, it's my drug.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess the entertainment is the drug. Like,
Speaker 2: how vital do you can you be to that audience?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't have the answer to.
Speaker 1: That question because my gap feeling is like the surfing
Speaker 1: people in the surfing world, they love the drug of entertainment,
Speaker 1: surfing entertainment and all the ship that goes with it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can still remember going sitting I'm one
Speaker 1: of them. But because I'm like a, you know, like a,
Speaker 1: I can get quite addictive. We're addicted. I remember. I
Speaker 1: can still remember to this very day, and it gives
Speaker 1: me goose. Sitting in a all up the North Coast
Speaker 1: on sort of plastic chairs watching Morning of the Earth
Speaker 1: when it first came out. I can still and I
Speaker 1: can still remember the soundtrack and the sort of the
Speaker 1: addiction I had towards that, and I actually bought the
Speaker 1: little tape. We had a tape deck and we used
Speaker 1: to play it literally we had three tapes with that
Speaker 1: and you know, a couple of other a couple of
Speaker 1: other tapes. You didn't have much money, so but that's
Speaker 1: what we would listen to listen to it. Like it
Speaker 1: was like impossible for me to go through a day
Speaker 1: without having listened to that music, only because I wanted
Speaker 1: to remember back the vision of the movie. It was
Speaker 1: fucking uncomfortable, hot and it was shitty, but the movie
Speaker 1: was just was one of the first. But it was
Speaker 1: unbelievable for me.
Speaker 2: Film heat unbelievable and.
Speaker 1: I'll never forget it. And I would have been if
Speaker 1: someone had has said to me that, like you can
Speaker 1: get that high by buying a magazine, and I would
Speaker 1: have kept doing it because it was a digital back
Speaker 1: then those days, of course, But can you see you've
Speaker 1: got great vision of these things. Can you see something
Speaker 1: that your magazine can present to surface and our surface
Speaker 1: is still the same sort of people? Are they still
Speaker 1: the same?
Speaker 2: I think so generally. I think the one the one
Speaker 2: advantage we have for being in a smaller kind of space.
Speaker 2: So if you look at say a GQ or an
Speaker 2: Esquire or a Rolling Stone and they get their cover
Speaker 2: star that comes in so they again, Edge Shearan or
Speaker 2: I don't know, Bad Bunny or Taylor Swift. They come in,
Speaker 2: they do the shoot, they do the interview, they have
Speaker 2: the lead profile. Really for those businesses to go to
Speaker 2: move to paywall like the way we have, they kind
Speaker 2: of need to make expert documentaries and really authoritive just
Speaker 2: the inside lane, and they're just really where they have
Speaker 2: their domain expertise. The challenge they have is those celebrities
Speaker 2: are such big names in their own right. They're never
Speaker 2: going to do a documentary with Esquire or GQ. They're
Speaker 2: going to go and do their own deal with HBO
Speaker 2: or Disney or Netflix or one of the big streamers
Speaker 2: for US. Dane Reynolds is an amazing poor Twiggy Baker.
Speaker 2: It's a lot Ferrera. They're huge in our world, but
Speaker 2: they're not huge. They're not big enough for the streaming world.
Speaker 2: Mick Fanning could probably go across the streamers, Bethany Hamilton maybe,
Speaker 2: Kelly maybe. But if we can keep working with these superstars,
Speaker 2: that's about as vital as we can get. And to
Speaker 2: create those moments where you have to sign up for
Speaker 2: what you're talking about, I don't know whether we can
Speaker 2: create that same chemistry as Morning Girl. I hope we can.
Speaker 2: But I think us surfing being so small is actually
Speaker 2: of benefit to us.
Speaker 1: The talent is so small in terms of there's not
Speaker 1: it's not Tyler Swift, it's not Tello Swift.
Speaker 2: So say we're in soccer and when to do something
Speaker 2: like messy and those great players do they go and
Speaker 2: do their own deals. But surfing it's really big and broad,
Speaker 2: but it's not really it's not too big, So we
Speaker 2: still have access to those our superstars, and I think
Speaker 2: that's the way that we can get those people and
Speaker 2: make ourselves more vital. But yeah, it's I feel I
Speaker 2: would prefer to I almost feel like I'd prefer to
Speaker 2: own our business than one of those other ones, because
Speaker 2: it's like, where do you go from there? How do
Speaker 2: you go to subscription model and be like sort of
Speaker 2: words and photos? I know, and that's sort of a
Speaker 2: hubristic thing to say, but I just wouldn't know how
Speaker 2: to chart that a path forward for those businesses.
Speaker 1: And what's the visual I I get wound up here,
Speaker 1: but what's the future of surfing? What is the future surfing?
Speaker 1: Just on the in globally, I mean, as it reached
Speaker 1: a Zenethlake as highest point because there's all the competitions.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like a bit like it's a little
Speaker 1: bit like cricket, Like you know, there's so many fucking competitions.
Speaker 1: I just can't keep up. And what happens I stop
Speaker 1: following cricket as a result of it. During the crickets
Speaker 1: is during the summer period, so many things going on.
Speaker 1: There's just too much and it gets diluted. Yes, it's
Speaker 1: surfing in a similar spot.
Speaker 2: Well, we have the WSL, which are those twelve major
Speaker 2: events a year, and then have the other events around those,
Speaker 2: the sort of ones that lead up to those. But
Speaker 2: they just got such a big field, and just like cricket,
Speaker 2: it takes a long time to go through the game,
Speaker 2: surfing takes long time to get through the whole field.
Speaker 2: And surfing entertainment, whether you're run surf contests or create
Speaker 2: content like us or Morning You Earth, you're only as
Speaker 2: good as the wave quality. And it's just not with
Speaker 2: mother nature. You can't physically have good waves for four
Speaker 2: or five days out of twelve, just so rarely happens.
Speaker 2: It actually can happen, but it's very very rare. And
Speaker 2: so while you've got these big fields of the women
Speaker 2: have a smaller field, but the men have such a
Speaker 2: large field. You're just going to have some boring things
Speaker 2: to watch and you don't know what it's on. If
Speaker 2: you knew that surfing was going to start at four
Speaker 2: o'clock on a Saturday and it was the eight to
Speaker 2: twelve foot pipeline, it would be as compelling as any
Speaker 2: other sport. But you just win tides.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, see it's too many, too many uncontrolled variables.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't like, we can't be consistent. Yeah, we
Speaker 2: can't have a barbecue and watch a game, watch the
Speaker 2: surfing at four o'clock on a Saturday. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 2: not a chance. And then we're in Europe. I think
Speaker 2: it's going to start, Then the tides are wrong and
Speaker 2: so it starts at midnight, and so you have to.
Speaker 1: Be an actual die hard, be prepared to fucking wait. Yes,
Speaker 1: and that's it's a bit like not like the UFC.
Speaker 1: So the UFC is going to be on Saturday after
Speaker 1: at one o'clock, and you know it's going to be
Speaker 1: Volcanosi versus blah, and you know what you're in for exactly.
Speaker 1: It's much more control. So that's why. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 1: going to be the same not that it's definitely not
Speaker 1: the same product.
Speaker 2: No, And you just really have no idea what you're
Speaker 2: going to get. Yeah, and when it all comes together,
Speaker 2: it's incredible. It might be as exciting as that as
Speaker 2: those matches. Yeah, but the nine percent of the time
Speaker 2: it's not, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't all come together. Yes, and it sort
Speaker 1: of can be I don't want to say it because
Speaker 1: sort of boring. Boring but underwhelming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just sort of background noise.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, So where to for me? What's what's
Speaker 1: what's next?
Speaker 2: We're gonna do more of our events in wave pools.
Speaker 1: Wave pools much more predictable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're more predictable. You start at four o'clock on
Speaker 2: a Saturday. Yeah, And we're just trying to do more documentaries,
Speaker 2: more of those deeper storytelling things like the were like
Speaker 2: the one you talked about, the Surfboard one, and yeah,
Speaker 2: just follow that way, kind of grow our subscriber base,
Speaker 2: run more events, keep having fun with.
Speaker 1: That and how much time you spend Australia.
Speaker 2: Now I'm here most of the year. I did actually
Speaker 2: I did a two months stint. Well, yeah, two months
Speaker 2: into three months in the US. I just was in
Speaker 2: the US last week for a week, so I kind
Speaker 2: of do maybe a third of the year there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you give and do you live in Byron.
Speaker 1: Did you go back down to your folks if he's
Speaker 1: still an am Gary, Yeah, yeah, did spend much time
Speaker 1: down there, Yeah, quite a lot.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, it's good to get back down there and
Speaker 2: seeing them. And there's just there's quite good surf. Actually
Speaker 2: there's a terrible surf there.
Speaker 1: Now, no, no, no, sorry, yeah, yeah, there's been. There's been.
Speaker 1: I was up there last week. A lot of swell
Speaker 1: around them. Like in fact, I went to meet Ginge
Speaker 1: for breakfast and I turned on he was standing there
Speaker 1: with his shirt off, was like seven o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 1: seven thirty more to be just coming from a surf,
Speaker 1: looking magnificent. Ginge as usual, but in the middle of
Speaker 1: the in the middle of the cafe. But he just
Speaker 1: come back from a surf. He said, it was pretty good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a good run. Autumn is always the
Speaker 2: best time.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, well same, thanks very much. That was great.
Speaker 1: And I actually when I got to Byron, ext I'll
Speaker 1: look you up. Yeah, good sceneing you mate.
Speaker 2: Hey, really nice to meet you. Thanks for having me,
Speaker 2: Sam mean, I appreciate it.