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Speaker 1: I've got our term. It's of your project. It's harped.

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Speaker 1: It's Scott Douglas, Scotty Douglas, paramedic, man about town, chef,

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Speaker 1: exotic dancer, author, poet, creative genius who's been on the

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Speaker 1: show before, and he's back.

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Speaker 2: High mate, how are you? Thank you very much. You're

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Speaker 2: going to make me cry again. Last time you said

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of good stuff to me, I cried.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember, well? Yeah, yeah, I do.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean you are that. It's funny like I'm

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Speaker 1: one of those people that if I take the piss

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Speaker 1: out of you, I like you. You know. That's the

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Speaker 1: way that And it's maybe I don't know if that's

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Speaker 1: sometimes I generalize and go, oh, that's a bloke thing,

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Speaker 1: but clearly it's not all blokes. But I tend to

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Speaker 1: make fun of a in a loving way that people,

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Speaker 1: or take the piss out of the people that I

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Speaker 1: care about. That's that's almost my love language. When someone

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Speaker 1: calls me a silly cunt, I just want to cuddle them.

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Speaker 1: You know, it depends on the context, I guess, but no,

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Speaker 1: you're a gun.

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Speaker 2: I love talking to.

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Speaker 1: You because I love learning from you. I love listening

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Speaker 1: to your stories, and you know, I think that, like,

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Speaker 1: if I'm listening to a podcast, I want it to

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Speaker 1: be organic and real and conversational. I don't want it

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Speaker 1: to be some boring, prescripted, fucking monologue. So Scott questioned

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Speaker 1: one about tell me about your childhood.

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Speaker 2: Oh Jesus, that's a If I actually did tell you

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Speaker 2: about my childhood, Craig, it would be a lot. It

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Speaker 2: would be a series of podcasts, and there would probably

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Speaker 2: be a few traumatic events involved. It wouldn't be pleasant. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: we might open that door one day.

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Speaker 1: Tell everyone why you and I You can throw me

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Speaker 1: under the bus. Tell everyone why you and I are

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Speaker 1: now doing this for the third time. As if you

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Speaker 1: want me to tell you how particular podcast, how inept

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Speaker 1: I am.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're talking about the podcast the other day when

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Speaker 2: you were talking about no sea bows and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the fact that you and I recorded

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Speaker 1: an hour yesterday. Oh and I didn't fucking push the buttons.

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yes, so yes you did that. We had

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Speaker 2: a lovely conversation yesterday, which was great. I was very happy.

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Speaker 2: I was nervous at the start we got into it. It

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Speaker 2: was really cool. And then invertently, you rang me yesterday

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Speaker 2: after said you want the good news or the bad news,

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Speaker 2: and you said the podcast was great, but we didn't

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Speaker 2: record it. So here we are again Wednesday morning recording.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm excited, Well, me too.

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Speaker 1: And then we started also ten minutes ago and I

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Speaker 1: fucked up. So this is actually the third TEMP. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: all right, so give us something from your childhood, Like,

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Speaker 1: let's not do the whole thing you said. If we

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Speaker 1: did open the door on your childhood, it could be wow,

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Speaker 1: a multi episode ex abganza. Okay, what's something fascinating and

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Speaker 1: memorable from your childhood that's going to blow our socks

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Speaker 1: off or at least interest us.

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Speaker 2: I probably ran away half a dozen times. I used

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Speaker 2: to sleep on people's floors from about the age of

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Speaker 2: about thirteen to about sixteen or seventeen. Like unfortunately, I

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Speaker 2: grew up in a very violent household and my dad

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Speaker 2: was like a chronic alcoholic and incredibly violence. So on

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Speaker 2: a regular basis, I used to run away, and I like,

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Speaker 2: I slipped in the train station and the gentleman in

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Speaker 2: the train station was absolutely amazing. He made me cup

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Speaker 2: of tea, gave me biscuits to eat and let me

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Speaker 2: sleep in the parcel room of the train station because

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Speaker 2: that was you could lock it from the train station,

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Speaker 2: but when the train would pull up, they could open

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Speaker 2: the door to drop off parcels or take parcels out.

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Speaker 2: So I slept in there, and I slept on top

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Speaker 2: of a whole bunch of warm newspapers that had been delivered.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was probably about were you when I

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Speaker 2: thirteen or fourteen when I did that? And I never

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Speaker 2: forget that. Man. I'm actually sorry, I'm getting a little

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Speaker 2: bit emotional about it, but that for me, that gentleman

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Speaker 2: probably at the time like a complete stranger. He's literally

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Speaker 2: a fucking train station dude in a country town. I

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Speaker 2: turned up, was sitting on the platform and he said,

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Speaker 2: are you going home? And I said no, And he

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Speaker 2: asked me where I'd come from and I told him

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Speaker 2: and which was really really far away, and I'd basically

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Speaker 2: walked to the train station following the train tracks. And

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Speaker 2: he literally made me a cup of tea, put me

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Speaker 2: inside in a safe place and said I have to

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Speaker 2: go home, mate, and he left me there, which I

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Speaker 2: think it was an amazing thing to do, like incredibly gracious,

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Speaker 2: and he just basically explained what happened in the morning

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Speaker 2: of the morning. I just went to school like I

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Speaker 2: always went to school, even when I ran away, because

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Speaker 2: school was sort of safe and you'd get a feed

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Speaker 2: and you could have a shower, clean your clothes, all

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So yes, so there you go.

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Speaker 2: There's something I absolutely did not think we were going

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Speaker 2: to discuss this morning, mister Harper. Congratulations.

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Speaker 1: And how did that influence you as an adult? Like,

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Speaker 1: do you think that was I mean, obviously that is

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Speaker 1: not a good experience in isolation, and just objectively that's

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Speaker 1: not a good experience for a child. But how did

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Speaker 1: that inform the way that you navigated the world moving forward?

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Speaker 1: Was there any resilience from that way? There any awareness

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Speaker 1: or like what did that do for you? That experience?

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Speaker 2: I honestly think a shape a person who I am.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to think there are times when I am

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Speaker 2: a gracious person, like I have no issue picking up hitchhikers,

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Speaker 2: I have no problem dealing with the homeless, and obviously

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Speaker 2: I would do that on a regular basis, working as

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Speaker 2: a paramit, especially in Melbourne. I actually think I became

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Speaker 2: the person that I needed when I was that age.

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Speaker 2: I really do believe that, and I believe I was

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Speaker 2: influenced by a lot of the time the parents of

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Speaker 2: my friends who clearly understood that there was an issue

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Speaker 2: if on a Wednesday night I was asleep on their

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Speaker 2: couch and it's a school night and I'm fourteen years old.

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Speaker 2: So again, you know, those are the people that I

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Speaker 2: can't thank enough. I have continued to see them and

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Speaker 2: thank them and explain to them how powerful it was

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Speaker 2: for me to have a safe place to go to,

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Speaker 2: and they're aware of that. They you know, I still

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Speaker 2: go to some of the I still go and spend

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Speaker 2: time with the parents of my friends, and they like

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Speaker 2: I go there, and they treat me like one of

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Speaker 2: their kids, which is amazing for me.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you, well, one is your dad's still alive.

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Speaker 2: No, he passed away two years ago. He had some

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Speaker 2: like a whole bunch of very aggressive cancers. So he

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Speaker 2: was a pilot in the Vietnam War. He did two

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Speaker 2: tours in Vietnam. He was in nine Squadron. And so

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Speaker 2: when we were young, we grew up on Air Force baces.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, clearly, as I've gotten older and I

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Speaker 2: have a much better understanding of, for example, things like PTSD. Clearly,

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Speaker 2: my dad was unwell and he had you know, I

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Speaker 2: got four brothers and a sister, you know, like big household,

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Speaker 2: small house. He had limited tools and was working very hard.

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Speaker 2: You know. So while I'm not trying to excuse his behavior,

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Speaker 2: I just have a better understanding of it.

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Speaker 1: I think as somebody who's medically qualified. Right, and it's

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. In our understanding of you know, mental

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Speaker 1: health and the myriad of variables and factors surrounding very

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Speaker 1: mental health, you know, the emotional and the behavioral and

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Speaker 1: the physiological stuff. You must look back and think, because

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Speaker 1: what was that? That was like, you know, forty years ago,

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Speaker 1: years ago? Yeah, yeah, and you must think we we

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Speaker 1: didn't know, you know, compared to what we know now.

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Speaker 1: We knew fuck all them, didn't we? We didn't really

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Speaker 1: even I don't know if the term I don't know

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Speaker 1: how long PTSD as a term or as a diagnosed

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Speaker 1: condition has been around, but it would have been in

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Speaker 1: the very very old days. They used to say that

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Speaker 1: people would come from war shell shops. Yes, yes, you

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Speaker 1: know what looking back did was there any awareness or

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Speaker 1: understanding about that forty years ago around our dad's behavior.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was probably in my mid to late twenties,

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Speaker 2: Like the Australian government finally recognized the Vietnam veterans and

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Speaker 2: allowed them, for example, to march on Anzac Day, which

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Speaker 2: if you think about you think about that just for

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Speaker 2: a minute. So these people were not allowed to march

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Speaker 2: on Anzac Day. So you know, like I said, I'm

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Speaker 2: not excusing my father's behavior at all, Like I think

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Speaker 2: he was at times a terrible person, but you know,

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Speaker 2: so he finally gets to march on Anzac Day, which

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Speaker 2: he deserves to march on Anzac Day with all these mates,

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Speaker 2: and I probably learned more from his mates about him

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Speaker 2: than I ever learned about him from him. So we

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Speaker 2: would go to these events, which I was very proud

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Speaker 2: of what my dad had done. Like he literally volunteered

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Speaker 2: twice to go and fly helicopters in Vietnam. Nuts, right,

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Speaker 2: And he appears in books. There's a book called Chicken Hawk,

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Speaker 2: and he like they talk about him innutes like when

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Speaker 2: he passed away, Like like it was in crazy the

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Speaker 2: amount of people that came forward and said, yeah, I'd

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Speaker 2: serve with your dad. He saved my life, or the

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Speaker 2: sons of his people would come forward to me and

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Speaker 2: my brothers and say, you know, this is what your

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Speaker 2: dad did for my dad. So yes, it wasn't until

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Speaker 2: I become a paramedic and I had a much better

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Speaker 2: understanding of say, for example, what PTSD was that I

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Speaker 2: reflected and went, yeah, lookause much as my dad at

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Speaker 2: times a terrible person, he clearly was unwell. He clearly

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Speaker 2: was sad, He clearly was struggling as a person, and

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Speaker 2: I sort of did feel sorry for him, Like I

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Speaker 2: felt really sad that I never got an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: speak to him about that. And obviously then for me,

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Speaker 2: someone who has PTSD themselves, like it probably would have

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Speaker 2: been handy for one of a better word, to at

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Speaker 2: least have a conversation with someone about what was going

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 1: Like, Yes, I wonder what your dad would have been

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Speaker 1: like if he never went to war. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: I wonder what kind of you know, because you go,

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Speaker 1: clearly he at times was a terrible person. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if he was I wonder if he was a terrible

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Speaker 1: person or I wonder if he just demonstrated terrible behavior

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Speaker 1: because of the trauma, Like I.

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Speaker 2: Love talking to you, Craik, because obviously your questions are

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Speaker 2: absolutely amazing and incredibly insightful for for someone who possibly

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Speaker 2: hasn't been around those kind of people. But I went

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Speaker 2: and saw my dad's mother, and I always got along

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Speaker 2: with my nan and Pop. They were always very very

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Speaker 2: good to me, very proud of me.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I used to go there sometimes when I was on

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Speaker 2: shift in uniform, and they, you know, they loved it.

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Speaker 2: And my Nan said to me that my dad loved

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Speaker 2: music and loved dancing, and that he was an artist

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Speaker 2: and that he'd won a scholarship to go to Melbourne

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Speaker 2: UNI as an artist. And I used to sometimes watch

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Speaker 2: my dad draw and paint and to despite his father,

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Speaker 2: who also ironically was an Air Force pilot. My dad's

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Speaker 2: dad flew Catalinas in Asia, the flying boats. He went

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Speaker 2: and joined the Air Force to pieces dad off. So

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Speaker 2: he had a scholarship for Melbourne UNI to do art

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Speaker 2: and apparently it was an amazing artist and to piece

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Speaker 2: his dad off, he went and joined the Air Force.

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Speaker 2: Like like fuck, yeah, how different possibly would my life

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Speaker 2: be if my dad had gone on to be an

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Speaker 2: art teacher or a sign writer or a graphic designer

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Speaker 2: when I got older, I would sometimes watch my dad's

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Speaker 2: behavior and think to myself, I wish he understood how

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Speaker 2: bad he's behaving, but I don't know if he does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fascinated with that. Like, it is very easy

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Speaker 1: to go And I'm not talking about you or your

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Speaker 1: dad necessarily, but broadly, either it's a good person, this

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Speaker 1: is a bad person, or he's a preck or she's

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Speaker 1: this or she's that, and then which is again, as

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Speaker 1: you said, it's not to justify or excuse any bad behavior.

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Speaker 1: But like I think about like, the idea of being

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Speaker 1: objective about yourself is ridiculous, right. I can't be objective

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Speaker 1: about me because my entire view of everything about me

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Speaker 1: is completely subjective. Right, So let's put that on the

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Speaker 1: psychological table and be fucking self aware and honest. But

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Speaker 1: I think I'm not a bad person. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: relatively kind and emotionally involved in all of these things

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Speaker 1: that I think. By the way, I could be wrong,

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Speaker 1: but that's how I see me. However, if I was

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Speaker 1: putting on my big boy pants and trying to not

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Speaker 1: be trapped in ego or fucking self grandization, I reckon

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Speaker 1: if I had have gone to war and gone through

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Speaker 1: the shit that your dad went through, or a version

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Speaker 1: of that, or you know, there's every chance I would

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Speaker 1: have been, in inverted commas, a prick or a prick

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Speaker 1: to be around for people because of my trauma and

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Speaker 1: what I'd seen and what I couldn't talk about and

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Speaker 1: the psychological and emotional damage that had been done to me.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not justifying anything. I'm just trying to understand

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Speaker 1: it because we always look at the thing from the

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Speaker 1: outside while not actually being in the thing, like we

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Speaker 1: don't you and I, well, you do to an extent,

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Speaker 1: and I want to talk to you about that. But

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Speaker 1: like I'm I feel that my life has gone great,

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Speaker 1: not because I'm great or I deserve it, but just

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Speaker 1: because I'm lucky, Like I don't you know, I've worked

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Speaker 1: reasonably hard and I've created a few good outcomes, so

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Speaker 1: that's good. But also, as my friend Vinn says, I

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Speaker 1: was kissed on the dick, right, and what that you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like and that's just a very bad expression of

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Speaker 1: being very fucking lucky, right, Like I was born lucky.

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Speaker 1: My parents were you know, we had our moments, but

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Speaker 1: over all, my parents are fucking great. You know, my

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Speaker 1: schooling was great, my friends were great. I grew up

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Speaker 1: in a safe space, you know, all I didn't. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't sleeping in a fucking train station when I was

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Speaker 1: thirteen and fourteen. And so yeah, these things are complicated

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Speaker 1: and it's really easy from the outside.

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Speaker 2: I'm not talking about you judging anyone.

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Speaker 1: I'm just talking in general. It's like, yeah, that is

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Speaker 1: horrible behavior, but you know that's Stephen Covey quote, and

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Speaker 1: lots of other people said it. Also, it's like seek

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Speaker 1: first to understand and then to be understood. And with

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Speaker 1: things like this, I'm always trying to figure out, like, yes,

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Speaker 1: we can acknowledge that that's bad behavior, or that that's inappropriate,

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Speaker 1: or that's fucking heinous, right, whatever it is, wherever it

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Speaker 1: is on the behavioral spectrum. But what I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: is trying to understand it, you know. And I guess

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Speaker 1: for you, as an observer of your dad, you must

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Speaker 1: have some interesting insights.

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Speaker 2: And also, yeah, I guess, like I said, I got

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Speaker 2: to meet some of my dad's colleagues. They were amazing people,

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Speaker 2: Like one of the guys's got to spend a fair

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Speaker 2: bit of time with I don't know if I can

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Speaker 2: say his name on air, But he was a tunnel rat.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone knows what that is. But

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Speaker 2: his role was to go inside the tunnels that the

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Speaker 2: Vietnamese soldiers had built and spend time. And he would

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Speaker 2: have a torch and a pistol and he has he has,

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Speaker 2: I think, been awarded like some serious medals. Yes, to

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Speaker 2: spend time with amazing, lovely man like he has children,

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Speaker 2: his children have children. You watch him and he's this beautiful,

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Speaker 2: beautiful man and you go, oh my god, why didn't

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Speaker 2: my dad turn out like that? Right? Because clearly had

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Speaker 2: very very similar experiences. However, I've also been with him

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Speaker 2: when there is the smallest amount of threat towards him

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Speaker 2: or his family, and he is a completely different man.

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Speaker 2: That absolutely frightened the shit out of me.

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Speaker 1: Really, So we're back even though we weren't here folks,

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Speaker 1: Sorry we had done. We're having internet issues because Scott

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Speaker 1: lives in Antarctica and there's no signal it does he does.

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Speaker 1: Now we're gonna we're going to soldier on because I

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Speaker 1: love this chat. So you were talking about your dad, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: who was just a winner, great bloke as except when

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Speaker 1: there was a threat go on.

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Speaker 2: So we're at the service station and he parked his motorcycle,

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Speaker 2: he put fuel in it, and he was waiting for

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Speaker 2: the next motorcycle before he moved his Yeah, which effectively

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Speaker 2: blocks any car out. But it just means that all

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Speaker 2: the bike's going to fill up at once and one

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Speaker 2: person pays. Right. Yeah, this gentleman got out of his

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Speaker 2: full drive and walked over and started having to go

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Speaker 2: with him. Now, this guy would have been forty and

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Speaker 2: the other guy would have been seventy and looks of

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Speaker 2: a small statue. But the just how how he behaved,

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Speaker 2: like his body movements and how he moved towards the

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Speaker 2: man and the menace in his voice. I shit myself

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Speaker 2: for the God, not for my friend, really, And I

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Speaker 2: spoke to his sons about it, and they told me

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Speaker 2: this story, which may be well known. I'm not awhab,

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Speaker 2: but one day their dad, quite late at night down

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Speaker 2: in Frankston, had pulled into an ATM to get money

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Speaker 2: and was standing at the ATM waiting to pull hise

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Speaker 2: cash out. Two young people come up behind him clearly

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Speaker 2: to rob him, and he put both of them in hospital.

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Speaker 2: There were young kids in their twenties. He would have

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Speaker 2: been in his seventies. So the police tried to charge

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Speaker 2: him and he just said, look at the security camera.

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Speaker 2: So I guess I spent a lot of time with

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Speaker 2: those predominantly men who were lovely to a point, but

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Speaker 2: then you would see them sometimes say and do things

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Speaker 2: where you would have to reflect on their behavior and

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Speaker 2: go they have the capacity to harm someone because they

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Speaker 2: have harmed people. They've literally killed people, and they carry

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Speaker 2: that with them and I think, sadly it becomes part

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Speaker 2: of their DNA and they probably I don't know if

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Speaker 2: if it's consciously or subconsciously, have a switch where they go,

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Speaker 2: I feel a threat and they put they sadly have

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Speaker 2: to put that switch on.

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Speaker 1: Can you can you enlighten me a little bit about

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Speaker 1: like the Vietnam War and return veterans, Like why were

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Speaker 1: they not allowed to march? Like they were literally sent

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Speaker 1: there by the Australian government. I mean, it wasn't there,

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Speaker 1: It wasn't their idea. No, I thin they were sent

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Speaker 1: there to fight. They were sent there to go to war.

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Speaker 1: They were sent there to whatever you know, to do

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Speaker 1: war and all of the things that that involves. So

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Speaker 1: what was the why were they not allowed to march.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of my listeners know the answer,

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Speaker 1: but yes, some in the dark.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is it was not considered a war,

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Speaker 2: was considered a peacekeeping conflict. So, for example, my dad

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Speaker 2: never got any kind of compensation from the government like

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Speaker 2: so and there will be some of your listeners who

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Speaker 2: understand this. So he didn't get a gold card, say,

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Speaker 2: he didn't become part of Veteran Affairs, but not just him,

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Speaker 2: but his whole generation of men that went there. So

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Speaker 2: it wasn't until maybe twenty years ago that he started

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Speaker 2: getting a pension because he was not considered a veteran,

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Speaker 2: which is once again not just him but everybody involved

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Speaker 2: in that conflict. And my mother, that's what she did.

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Speaker 2: She worked for Veteran Affairs and helped my father get

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Speaker 2: a pension and was so successful at it. That's what

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Speaker 2: she ended up doing basically for a living in her retirement,

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Speaker 2: was getting other veterans, you know, pensions from the government.

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Speaker 2: Some men who came back to Australia and then disappeared,

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Speaker 2: like literally went bush because that's where they felt safe.

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Speaker 2: I've lived for twenty thirty years without any kind of

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Speaker 2: compensational like a healthcare card, nothing like that. They would

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Speaker 2: come to my mother and say this is we know

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Speaker 2: who you are and we know that you help these people.

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Speaker 2: Can you help me? And so my mum then went

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Speaker 2: and worked for veteran Affairs up until she died, getting

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Speaker 2: people pensions or just their legal right what they were

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Speaker 2: allowed to have.

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Speaker 1: This is a weird question, but I'm sure the answer

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Speaker 1: is yes. But is PTSD like on a scale do

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Speaker 1: you think, like obviously there are different levels, Like there's

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Speaker 1: like ten out of ten, you know, can't get out

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Speaker 1: of it to share? Yes, like you know, colloquially speaking,

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Speaker 1: fucked like life is terrible, can't operate, can't function if

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Speaker 1: that's ten? Yes, where was your dad and where are

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Speaker 1: you on the scale?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so my dad was a nine, So my dad

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Speaker 2: couldn't sit in a room unless you could see the door.

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Speaker 2: And lots of my friends a lot that too, And

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Speaker 2: I am like that. But there's all this stuff my

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Speaker 2: dad categorically could not do and I only understand it

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Speaker 2: as I got older. Once again, Craigy, like your insight

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Speaker 2: into this is amazing, right. So, so I have friends

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Speaker 2: that literally are on medication, that have spent up to

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Speaker 2: eight weeks in therapy or rehab centers. And I have

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Speaker 2: been the person that they call when they're allowed to

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Speaker 2: have a phone call. And I've been that person multiple times.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've been prevented from seeing my friends because

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Speaker 2: you know, their doctors think it's not healthy for them

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Speaker 2: to be around someone who is also a paramedic. So

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Speaker 2: on a scale of things, like I think I'm incredibly lucky,

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Speaker 2: like what you said earlier, Like I don't take any

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Speaker 2: kind of medication. I have lots of therapy, but I

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Speaker 2: have an understanding of how my brain and my condition works,

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Speaker 2: so I purposely go and you know, like this morning,

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Speaker 2: went up to the lake which is probably ten degrees

401
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 2: and spent ten minutes sitting in the water just to

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Speaker 2: get myself cool, literally and just to get myself in

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Speaker 2: a place where I felt calm and I could go

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Speaker 2: and deal with people. So I think I'm a five,

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Speaker 2: But I sadly have mates who can't get out of bed,

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Speaker 2: who take medication, and you know, because of their career they.

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Speaker 1: Chose Hey, yeah, thank you for sharing that and being

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Speaker 1: vulnerable and honest. I wonder I think about the space

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Speaker 1: between treating the underlying problem. I don't know how much

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Speaker 1: we can fix it, of course, let's put an asterisk.

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Speaker 1: But dealing with the underlying problem and medicating the symptoms.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about the space between, you know, trying

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Speaker 1: to alleviate some symptoms for obvious reasons versus trying to

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Speaker 1: improve the actual cause of this, like the underlying problem.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the symptoms for me. So once I understood,

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Speaker 2: which probably took two or three years of therapy, I

417
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Speaker 2: once I understood that I wasn't a bad person or

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Speaker 2: like it took me six years of therapy to literally

419
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Speaker 2: I was driving home once that day and my therapist

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Speaker 2: had said to me, you're a good man, like you

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Speaker 2: do good things, and she always wanted me to say

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Speaker 2: I am a good man out loud, for me six

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Speaker 2: years to do that.

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Speaker 1: Which is terrible.

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Speaker 2: Once I did it, I realized I was And I

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Speaker 2: just had a medical condition the same as diabetes or

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Speaker 2: you know something or a heart condition where you could possibly,

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Speaker 2: you know, using lifestyle choices and medication make it smoother

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Speaker 2: for yourself. So I wanted to keep working. So there's

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Speaker 2: things I could not do. So I couldn't work at

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Speaker 2: night because I would fall asleep and I'd have nightmares

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Speaker 2: which would inevertially wake up my working partner, and which

433
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: happened sadly multiple times. I would wake up screaming. They

434
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: would run down the hall from their bedroom wake me up,

435
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: and I immediately thought I just slept through a page

436
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: or something, so I thought they were coming to get

437
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: me to go get a job, whereas they were coming

438
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 2: to get me because I was screaming. So we would

439
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: then ring the duty manager and say, look, I need

440
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: half an hour. This is what's happened. And after a

441
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: while you go, well, I probably can't work at night anymore.

442
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: So unfortunately, yeah, so then you can't work at night.

443
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: So I put things into place that made it safer

444
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 2: for me, you know, and lots of exercise for whatever reason,

445
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: lots of exercise for me is really good. And I understood,

446
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 2: like I like doing what some people would consider risky

447
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 2: things like I like riding my metuscle fast, I like

448
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: going out into big water, but they're calculated risks, Like

449
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: I look at what's going on and why I want

450
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: to do those things, and I understand that it gives

451
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: me a thrill. So it gives me the same thrill

452
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: as having an ambulance fast at two o'clock in the morning.

453
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: So, but what's the you know what is interesting in

454
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: all of this, Right, So what is what does a

455
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: pill do to a human's body? Well, it changes biochemistry,

456
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: It changes changes what's happening in the brain. Well, what

457
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: does writing a motorbike do for you and me? It

458
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: changes our biochemistry, it changes it changes what's happening with

459
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,959
Speaker 1: hormone production and kind of hormones and endocrime position, endocrime system.

460
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: It puts you and me like for our listeners who

461
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: don't like motorbikes, totally get it. And this is the

462
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: beauty of this. Like for our listeners who don't like motorbikes,

463
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: it would produce a stress response. Yes, for you and me,

464
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: it literally puts us in a better place mentally, emotionally,

465
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: and physiologically. It actually puts my biochemistry in a better place.

466
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: May be a better place than taking the best pill

467
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: in the world. Right, And so everything on a level.

468
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: When you've got and then you can extrapolate that physiological

469
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: response to an activity or some kind of external stimulus

470
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: versus an internal medication, then we start to understand how

471
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: we can manage our physical, mental and emotional health through

472
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: behaviors rather than and I'm not discounting medicine, of course,

473
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: but through behaviors and doing things and having experiences versus

474
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: popping a pill.

475
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: Once once again, I can't agree with you more, Craig.

476
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: And I've had the privilege of spending time with people

477
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: who have discovered for them that maybe not riding a motorcycle,

478
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 2: but perhaps writing it. It's like surfing a big wave,

479
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: or learning to play music, or any new experience which

480
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: helps rewire their brain, helps them settle. So you know,

481
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: I've got mates that have literally got one of my

482
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: very friends learnt to sew on a selling machine, and

483
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: one of my other mates who's evers twice. Actually, he

484
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: said something very very simple to me when he is climbing.

485
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: There is no mortgage, there is no kids, there's nothing

486
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: but the climb. There's nothing but the handhold. There's nothing

487
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: but how your rope is. Like you are. You are

488
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: in that moment. You can't be unwell. You can't do

489
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 2: that and be unwell at the same time. So because

490
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: I was explained to him how much I love riding

491
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: fast and my experience at writing at the Isle of Man,

492
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: and he said that's how climbing mountains is for me.

493
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: That's my safe place, which is crazy when you think

494
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: about it, right, But I understand more about him, and

495
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 2: he's an incredibly lovely man. He's one of my favorite

496
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: people in the world. Like he's a great dad, Like

497
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: he's a good grandfather, Like you watch him. But he, unfortunately,

498
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: you said, literally kill people for a living. So he

499
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: needs a safe place.

500
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, And it like what is fascinating with

501
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 3: this is and I mean this is true with traditional

502
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 3: medication as well, but like the thing that will put

503
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 3: you in your happy place will put somebody else in

504
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 3: their anxious place, right, Like it's.

505
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: True, isn't it. And so it's like people go to me,

506
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you should really try meditation. I'm like,

507
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: fucking meditation. Do you know what meditation? You know, me

508
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: sitting trying to meditate in the sense that most people

509
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: think about meditation. By the way, is meditation great? The

510
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: answer is maybe it's fucking great for some people, but

511
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: it's not for everyone, you know, just like talk therapy

512
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: is really effective for some people and really ineffective for

513
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: other people. Like this whole notion that, oh Scott, you're

514
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: suffering from this, Therefore you need that or Scott, you

515
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: have this problem, therefore you need the solution that worked

516
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: for me, because the solution that works for Craig could

517
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: actually make Scott's problem worse because Scott is not Craig.

518
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: So this global stupid idea that we have of that

519
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: there is an answer for every you know, like, what's

520
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: the problem, Well, this is the answer. No, the question

521
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: is what's the answer for that individual. How does that

522
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: individual's physiology interact with that experience or that motorbike ride,

523
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: or that meditation class or that talk therapy, Like it's

524
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what works for that person because literally,

525
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: and you think about I've said this before, but you know,

526
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: somebody can have a handful of nuts and they're having

527
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: a healthy snack. Somebody else is doing the same thing,

528
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: is just putting a death sentence in their mouth because

529
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: they'll have an anaphylactic reaction. Yes, and if they do

530
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: that in the wrong place at the wrong time, they're

531
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: going to die. Somebody else just eats a few nuts

532
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: while they're driving to the gym. Right, it's not about

533
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: the nuts. It's not about the talk therapy, it's not

534
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: about the motorbike ride. It's not about the meditation class.

535
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: It's about how that affects that individual, for better or worse.

536
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 2: Yes, I think, and I'll probably repeat myself. I think

537
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: I'm very lucky because I discovered what some people would

538
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: consider safe pursuits or a safe place to put my

539
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: dark energy. So I like swimming, So I would come

540
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: off a bad shift and just go and swim. And

541
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: I'd swim for two k's. I just swim, but rather

542
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: than drink because I thought my dub was an alcoholic,

543
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: I can't drink. But I do need a safe place

544
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 2: to put my dark energy. Yeah. So sometimes I would

545
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: ride my motorcycle too fast, you know, and the you know,

546
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 2: the ramifications of that are catastrophic, and I've crashed twice.

547
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: I've been hospitalized. Yeah, So that is always at the

548
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: back of my mind when I sometimes get on my

549
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 2: motorcycle and go. You just need to go fast and smooth. Yes,

550
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: And I do think I'm lucky that I don't want

551
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: to take alcohol, or want to take a drug, or

552
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: want to harm myself in some way. I want to

553
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: do something positive. Now, as you said, some people would go, Yeah, Roddie,

554
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: mostcycle that's not safe, okay, And they might want to

555
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: play golf. I couldn't play golf, mate, Like, I can't

556
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: see that. I just can't. Like I need it to

557
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: be maybe a little faster and maybe a little riskier.

558
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: I just and that is because of dopamine and because

559
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: of how it feels when you pull it off, if

560
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: that's if that helps explain it.

561
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

562
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: So compared to where you were when you were in

563
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: the you know, the cut and thrust of you know,

564
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: waking up in the middle of the night and screaming

565
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: and at the cold face of being a paramedic every day,

566
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: like every working day, and dealing with trauma and dealing

567
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: like being in the middle of accidents that most people

568
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: could not cope with, and you know all that stuff.

569
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: How are you you now? Like are you are you

570
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: more operational? More functional? Do you have a different perspective

571
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: around all of that?

572
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: Yes. So I had lunch with one of my closest friends.

573
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: I've known that young lady for forty years. I had

574
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: lunch with her about three weeks ago, and I sat

575
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: down and she said, oh my god, you look lighter.

576
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: And it was such a beautiful thing to say, and

577
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: it was such a gracious thing to say, and we

578
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: had this whole conversation about where I am today and

579
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: how I feel about myself and that's why you have friends.

580
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: That's why you need good friends, because you know, imagine

581
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: if she had have said, you don't look well. And

582
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: I mean I left that lunch feeling so full and

583
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: loved and supported and like I was over the moon.

584
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: And I said to her, yes, you're right, I do

585
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: feel like what you just said. I feel lighter, I

586
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: sleep better. You know, I'm writing more, I play guitar,

587
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: or I have so much more. I'm now to come

588
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: and have a coffee with Craig Harper, to go and

589
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: do listen to music, to go swimming with my daughter,

590
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: Like I now think I'm catching up on things, especially

591
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: on seeing friends that I was unable to do before.

592
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: And I'm looking forward to going back to school and

593
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: learning new things. And yeah, it's probably I think I'm

594
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: in a very good place.

595
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: It's yesterday I was talking to a young man who

596
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: I don't know well, but I've spoken to him a

597
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: few times, and he reached out to me the other day.

598
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: His name's should I do this? Yeh? Fuck it? He's

599
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: a great dude. His name's Will. His name's Will Murray,

600
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: and Will was an up and coming footballer. He almost

601
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: definitely would have been drafted into the AFL. And he

602
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: had an accident. I think he dived into a pool

603
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: when he was about I'm going to say around fifteen

604
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: and became a quadriplegic. Right, And yesterday I met him

605
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: at the cafe and so he's this twenty three year

606
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: old dude in a chair and we're talking about we're

607
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: talking about lots of things, and like, talk about somebody

608
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: who who has every right to feel sorry for themselves

609
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: but doesn't like I inspired him. Sorry, he inspired me

610
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: more than I inspired him yesterday. And Mike, Fuck, you

611
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: know when you go away and you go like I'm

612
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: meant to be the guy who does all this, I go,

613
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: I just want to be more like him. I'm like, fuck,

614
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: I'm an amateur at this shit. I want to be

615
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: more like him. But anyway, we're talking about that, and

616
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: I'm kind of digressing a little bit, but that you know,

617
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: when guys are struggling with stuff, or guys are dealing

618
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: with hard stuff, and I'm generalizing a little bit, some

619
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: women are similar to this, But I've tried to explain

620
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: this to various people over time, when like when you're

621
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: close to somebody, somebody that you care about, or you know,

622
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: like sometimes taking the piss what seems to be inappropriate

623
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: is actually the most appropriate. And I was talking to

624
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: Will yesterday about stuff, and he said, like, while he

625
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: understands the sympathy from people, it almost drives him nuts, Like,

626
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: you know, because here's a young guy in a wheelchair

627
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: and he really likes it when like his mates take.

628
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: The piss and they treat him.

629
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: And of course he's exactly the same, slightly different situation,

630
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: but he's just a young dude who's got his life

631
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: ahead of him. And I said to him, well, for

632
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: what it's worth, I don't give a fuck about you

633
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: if that makes you feel better, and he laughed his

634
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: ass off, right, he said, you know, and just that

635
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: like trying to figure out I don't know, like, you know,

636
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: when people are struggling emotionally and mentally, sometimes I'm like, yeah,

637
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: I don't know that leaning in going like sometimes leaning

638
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: in and going, hey Scott, are you okay? And sometimes

639
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 1: that's the right thing, but also sometimes having some fun,

640
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: you know, bringing some levity, like recognizing what's going on. Yeah, mate,

641
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: you're having a bad day, you're having a bad week,

642
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: having a bad month. I'm here for you, by the way,

643
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,959
Speaker 1: like I'm honestly I'm here for you. But for fox sake,

644
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: can you get out of bed your lazy you know, like,

645
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: for fuck, come on bright, like you're fucking depressing me,

646
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: You're fucking idiot. Let's go and get a coffee or

647
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I just think that bringing a different energy.

648
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: And I know that's not a standalone solution or a recommendation,

649
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 1: but like I was looking into him and I'm thinking, yeah,

650
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: what what he needs and what he thrives on is

651
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: when people just talk to him as though there is

652
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: no chair, there is no disability. Just talk to him

653
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: like a twenty because that's what he is. Like, what

654
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: he is is a young dude with a lot of

655
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: fucking potential and a great attitude. So just talk to

656
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: that person. Don't talk to the disability, don't talk to

657
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: the chair, don't talk to the image, right, you know

658
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: it's and yeah, I don't know, there's no revelation in

659
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: that for you, but it just kind of struck me.

660
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: No, No, I think there is Craig Like, I had

661
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: the privilege of being a volunteer for the Australian Paralympic team,

662
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: and I've got to go to the twenty twelve Paralympics,

663
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: and then I've got to spend lots of time with

664
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: lots of paralympians and yeah, what I learned from them

665
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: is immeasurable, Like how they hang shit on each other

666
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 2: and you go, oh my god, he just fucking called

667
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: him legless, right, But we sat around a table having

668
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: dinner and it was like having dinner with your mates,

669
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: exactly the same, especially after they won the silver medal.

670
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: The basketballers, like that was a privilege, and they're just

671
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: sitting around talking shit, like hanging shit on their wives,

672
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: just like everybody else does. And then you would go

673
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: to help them, like they would move and you'd go

674
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: to grab the chair, and I remember one guy saying

675
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: to me, they're going to fucking follow me around because

676
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: I'm taking a piece. Unless you're going to follow me

677
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: around everywhere I go, don't help them. Yeah, so yeah, yeah.

678
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: One of my best friends is a former paralympian and

679
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: I love spending time with him because if I ever

680
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: start winging, if I ever go fucking hell, mate. Some

681
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: days he just looks at me like serious, Yeah, yeah,

682
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 2: do you want to have a crack at my life?

683
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 3: You know?

684
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: So?

685
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's levity in those situations. Absolutely.

686
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: Do you think people can I don't know if this

687
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: is the right word, but you'll figure it out. It's

688
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: not the best question, but it's not it. I'm heading

689
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: in the right direction. Can people overcome trauma? Yes, like

690
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: either fully or partly? Or do we just exist with it?

691
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts?

692
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: Okay, say, trauma to me is like a passenger in

693
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: my car. I know if I go somewhere, it's going

694
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 2: to come because I might pull up at a set

695
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: of lights and see nineteen ninety six red Falcon wagon. Yeah,

696
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: and I'll go I remember, I remember pulling a per

697
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: and have a car just like that car, And that's

698
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: you can't do anything about that, right, Yeah. Like you

699
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: might go into a house that's your friend's house and

700
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: there's a smell and it's the same smell that reminds

701
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: you of that stabbing that you went to once again,

702
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: you can't it's two o'clock in the afternoon, it's a

703
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: lovely day. You're going there for a barbecue, and you

704
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: can't do anything about that other than not react. You go,

705
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: I recognize that smell. I recognize that smell reminds me

706
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: of that stabbing I went to. However, yes, I am

707
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 2: not at that stabbing. I'm at my friend's house where

708
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: I'm safe and we're going to have a great feed.

709
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: Please continue. So, yes, like I said, I don't know

710
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 2: how some of my colleagues or some of my former

711
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 2: colleagues and my mates do that stuff. I just only

712
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: know how I do it.

713
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: And so when you're in the middle of that and

714
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: you recognize the nine ninety six red Falcon wagon all

715
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: the room that has a familiar but undesirable smell, or

716
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: how does that affect you? One to ten, ten being

717
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: crippling and overwhelming, one being extremely minor. How does that

718
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: affect you? And does it affect you less now than

719
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: it did five years ago.

720
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely affects me less now. But sometimes it does catch

721
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: you by surprise, because you'll be like, oh, I'm okay

722
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: with the red falcon YEP, I know it's just a

723
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: fucking thing and it'll pass. And I normally look at

724
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: my watch and look at my heart rate, and my

725
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: heart rates eighty and I drive off and go yep. Cool. However,

726
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 2: there are sometimes where someone will mention something and you go,

727
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: oh fuck, yeah, I did deliver a baby by the

728
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 2: side the road by myself. Yeah fuck, that was heavy. Yeah,

729
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 2: And you might then reflect on how you traveled after

730
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: that job. And so sometimes it can be around for

731
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: a couple of days. I have to be honest, like

732
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: I certainly have had situations where I've become completely uncomfortable.

733
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: I can no longer stay in that situation. I have

734
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: to go somewhere where I feel is safe. And I

735
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 2: have before turned up at people's houses and just walked

736
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: into their house and got I fucking I'm not good,

737
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 2: and they go, yeah, sure, mate, fucking you know you

738
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 2: know what spare room is, yeah, and not come out

739
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: for two days.

740
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

741
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 2: I mean I don't do that anymore, which I'm very

742
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: thankful for. But I at the time, I was incredibly

743
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: thankful for the people that accepted me into their houses.

744
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: So then I feel I have a responsibility when that

745
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: occurs to me. When someone knocks on my door or

746
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: rings me at twenty to eleven at night and you

747
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: know that there's something wrong, I feel.

748
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: A dichotomy with the consequences of the potential consequences of

749
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: trauma and PTSD. I know they intersect, but I feel like,

750
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: tell me if this is this is my guest, this

751
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: is my hypothesis. You know, I don't know, so I'm

752
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: just asking a question. But I feel like some people

753
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: can come through that stuff and out the other side.

754
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 1: They're more shut down, they're more switched off emotionally, they're

755
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: they're they're more broken, whatever that means. But maybe for

756
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: other people, you would come out and because you've been

757
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: through that, you have a greater level of empathy for

758
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: people that are going through that. Like, I feel like

759
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: you would have more empathy and understanding for people going

760
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: through that now because you've been through that.

761
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, Like I basically volunteer as a person that

762
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: can be called, which you can always not you can

763
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 2: always not take the call. But I find myself I'm happy.

764
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: Happy is the right wather that's actually a bad word,

765
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 2: but I'm way more comfortable going I know this person's

766
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: going to ring men, I know they're fucked. I've know

767
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: that had a shit day, And sometimes you get a

768
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 2: briefing on what the job was and say this person

769
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: may have been a former student of yours and they

770
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: are three years in the job and they've just gone

771
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: to a terrible job, and they actually want to speak

772
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: to you because they used to speak to you at school.

773
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: So and I, ironically, probably a week ago, I rang

774
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: one of my former students who I know was having

775
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 2: a bad time, and you know, he was, oh, my god,

776
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: thanks so much for ringing, mate, I said, dude, I

777
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: not fucking ring any day of the week. And we

778
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 2: had this very long conversation and the last thing we

779
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: talked about was whittling, because that's what he does for

780
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: a hobby.

781
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: Now.

782
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 2: He whittles, right, And he was telling me how he

783
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: spent ten minutes telling me how he was making a

784
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: spoon but fucking way better than talking about the job

785
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: he'd gone to. He just needed someone to have a

786
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: chat with about something normal. So something abnormal. This is

787
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,959
Speaker 2: what is abnormal. Now I talks you about my new hobby,

788
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 2: which is whittling, and I'm like, dude, it's an old

789
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: man's hobby. And he's like, I am the youngest person

790
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: by forty years in the class.

791
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. It's like, I think the funny thing is

792
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: that sometimes like yeah, or you don't need to talk

793
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: about the problem. You just need to talk about anything

794
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: but the problem. Sometimes just to get out of that

795
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: that's that folk like where all you where? You're in

796
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 1: the middle of that experience and then you're talking about

797
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: motorbikes or surfing or whittling or whatever it is, just

798
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: to shift your attention and your emotional energy away from

799
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: that thing that's giving you that anxiety.

800
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: Yes, and we do that as first responders. And you

801
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: watch the newer people, who predominantly are younger. So you

802
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: go to a massive, big two or three car incident, hollicopters,

803
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 2: everything right, yeah, and someone will walk up to you

804
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: and go, oh, when's your next day off? Oh yeah,

805
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 2: two days from now? Well what are you doing? And

806
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: have a reasonable conversation about what you're doing on your

807
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: days off amongst all this carnage and amongst all this mayhem.

808
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: And then newer people are like, how the fuck do

809
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: you do that? Just talk about the football and you go,

810
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: what do you want to talk about? Mate? The dead people?

811
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 2: No one wants to talk about the dead people. Maye

812
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: not now, later we will. How about we talk about

813
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: normal stuff that normal people talk about.

814
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know, to people listening to this, they're

815
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: going to go, how the fuck is wrong with you

816
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: talking about the football and that situation? But I understand it.

817
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,760
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it is like what's funny? Is one person's

818
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: weird as another person's normal? Yes, one, you know, it's

819
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: like like when you said that, I'm like, really, that's

820
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: what you're But then you're like, yeah, but that kind

821
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 1: of makes sense because you know, what's done is done.

822
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: We can't undo that, can't change it. Yes, we can't

823
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: change that. So now we've just got to navigate it.

824
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: We do everything humanly possible to look after and protect

825
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: it and serve these people. But this is where we

826
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: are at right now, and so right now, what we're

827
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: going to do is talk about the game on the weekend.

828
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: And that's really for your own mental.

829
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: Health, right absolutely. And what I used to do because

830
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: obviously I was a chef, so I used to bake.

831
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: So I used to bake all the time, and I said,

832
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: take Anzac cookies and chocolate chip cookies to work in

833
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: a big tub. And after really big jobs, we always

834
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 2: used to get into normally my ambulance and I'd pull

835
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 2: the cookies out and I'd pass them around. We'd all

836
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: be standing there eating cookies, talking about what happened. It's normal. Yeah,

837
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 2: And it got to the point that's like years into

838
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 2: the job. One of my managers, we've gone to this unfortunately,

839
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: this really big car accident, and he came up to me.

840
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 2: He goes, you have any cookies in the car? Yeah,

841
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: he goes, can you bring them? I went, oh, wow, okay,

842
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: So because like we'd actually normalized something, yes, yes, And

843
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: after I couldn't stop baking cookies because everyone always wanted them,

844
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: which was lovely. But yeah, it was very interesting for me.

845
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: I do distinctly remember standing by the side of the

846
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: road in Point cook at this huge car accident and

847
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: we're all standing around eating cookies. Andyone's going, O, I's gotty,

848
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: These are fucking great.

849
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:41,479
Speaker 1: I'm like, I know, I kind of feel like that's bad. Yeah,

850
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: I'm kidding.

851
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 2: I think from the outside watching that, I believe the

852
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 2: public would go what the fuck. But at some stage

853
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: you have to let it. One of my instructors said

854
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: to me, let it drain out of your boots. Just

855
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 2: let it go and let it and let it. It'll go,

856
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: and then you do something else because just remember, mate,

857
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: you have to pack up the car and then go

858
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 2: do it again. Yes, so you can't think about what

859
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: you just did because it takes away from what you're

860
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: about to do. So you've got to have that moment

861
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: of normality in the middle.

862
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: And you've got to go home and say hello to

863
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: your your missus or your husband, whatever the case is,

864
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 1: or your kids or and then you've got to turn

865
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: up and tomorrow you've got to be brand new and great.

866
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: You know, hey, mate, it's always great chatting with you.

867
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: Thank you that much.

868
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: You're going to become a regular. We've just you've just

869
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: been given the like the Facebook tick, You've been given

870
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: the typ tick, so you've got the the whatever that

871
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: status is, you've got that now. So we'll chat to

872
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: you another week or three. But tell people how they

873
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 1: can find you and connect with you.

874
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: Mister Horatio Jones on Instagram. And if people would like

875
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: to have a look at my books. I've written two

876
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: books and I'm in the process writing a third one

877
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: which comes out hopefully in March, they can go to

878
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: Horatio hyphen Jones dot com dot au and check out

879
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: the website. Thank you very very.

880
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: Much, Oh mate, We appreciate you. Thanks for all the

881
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: stories and all the wisdom and all the insight. We

882
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: love having you as being part of the team. You

883
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: have a good day. Man.

884
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 2: Cheers Man, your team mate.