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Speaker 1: Yeah, Approache production, Photo Record. I don't trying to make

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Speaker 1: you uncomfortable. Photo Record. You ain't trying world any stuff

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Speaker 1: for your photo record lab on me going all the

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Speaker 1: way photo record. Ain't trying to link. No trying to

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Speaker 1: waste your stuff for the record photo record, photo Poto

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Speaker 1: record for the right for the record record photo record,

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Speaker 1: don't try and make you uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Clink and part two of Brand's

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Speaker 2: chat with Devin Hammond.

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Speaker 3: We'll kick things off with her sharing her experience inside

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Speaker 3: some of Australia's toughest female prisoners.

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Speaker 2: Did you have any any issues because of the amount

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Speaker 2: of money that was publicly listed that was, you know,

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Speaker 2: defrauded And I mean obviously that would put a real

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Speaker 2: big red light over your head that you're someone that

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Speaker 2: might have something that you.

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Speaker 4: Know, Yeah, I was. I'd had my solicitor had had

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Speaker 4: this conversation with me prior to going in and he

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Speaker 4: just said, you know, this could be a thing where

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Speaker 4: people find out about the amount of money so they

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Speaker 4: think that you have money and whatnot. So I made

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Speaker 4: an effort not to I made it a thing for myself.

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Speaker 4: I guess not to talk about it. I certainly wouldn't.

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Speaker 4: You know, some people like to go in and brag

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Speaker 4: about what they've done. Of course, that's that was definitely

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Speaker 4: not the case for me. I wasn't proud of what

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Speaker 4: I'd done anyway, but I definitely wasn't going to go

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Speaker 4: around telling everybody as well.

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Speaker 2: And it didn't come out it did It.

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Speaker 4: Did because that's what happened with me is someone got

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Speaker 4: on the phone and you know, said, what's to go here.

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Speaker 4: People compare sentences and lengths of time and things like

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Speaker 4: that too, so.

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Speaker 2: They're not stupid because you've got to remember, but that's

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Speaker 2: all they do is sit there day in and day out,

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Speaker 2: you know, play puzzles in their own mind, and it's

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Speaker 2: occupying their brains. So you know, being able to sort

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Speaker 2: of pull apart somebody else's strand and look. In some

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Speaker 2: cases you need to do it because you need to

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Speaker 2: know who you're around. And there are some really shit

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Speaker 2: people in there for someds horrendous crimes, and some of

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Speaker 2: them come into the main and they'll hide in the

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Speaker 2: main until they get found out and then they get

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Speaker 2: chopped into and they get sent So I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: you don't know, you just.

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Speaker 4: Don't know, no you don't. Yeah, so there was a

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Speaker 4: girl who'd done that and I just, you know, was

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Speaker 4: basically like, I don't appreciate it. If there were things

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Speaker 4: that I wanted to talk about or whatever, I would

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Speaker 4: do So if not, I just don't want to. But

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Speaker 4: if you want to know something, come and talk to

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Speaker 4: me about it rather than everyone else first. I guess

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Speaker 4: there were kind of situations like that. You know, people

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Speaker 4: ask you whether you like you use, and I kind

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Speaker 4: of found that helpful to people not you know, knowing that.

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Speaker 2: I didn't because they step off.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, they don't bother with you, or when there's

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Speaker 4: fights and this you know, had happened before as well.

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Speaker 4: There were issues in the house, shit was stolen, so

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Speaker 4: then everyone's going crazy and they know whether you're being

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Speaker 4: legit or not whether you say you use or not,

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Speaker 4: like they're going to know if you're lying or you're not.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, it was like I don't need to worry

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Speaker 4: about you because I know that you don't. So I

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Speaker 4: always say, if you're not into other girls and you're

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Speaker 4: not into drugs, you should be fine because I think

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Speaker 4: they're the main things that everyone fights over.

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Speaker 2: And isn't that funny? Because you know, in the male

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Speaker 2: male system, obviously the drugs are a massive issue, but

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Speaker 2: it's it's definitely not a male on male sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: But you know, like just touching on that, it actually

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Speaker 2: is a big thing in the women's system, isn't.

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Speaker 4: It what it is?

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Speaker 2: It is huge. Lamanships call it gay in jail and normally, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's a thing. It's a thing.

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Speaker 4: It is. It's a thing where they never are or

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Speaker 4: never were on the outside. And then I guess, you know,

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Speaker 4: people are just wanting that companionship and I think that's

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Speaker 4: really all that comes down to. And you know so

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Speaker 4: many women turn gay in jail. Yeah, but it can

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Speaker 4: it can cause a lot of drama.

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Speaker 2: Just on your experience, and you know, like I don't

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Speaker 2: want to keep sort of going down because I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is your story and there's a lot more to

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Speaker 2: you than obviously, but it is important you you're going

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Speaker 2: for sentencing, and I would was it the Downing Center

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Speaker 2: district or do you go Supreme?

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Speaker 4: No? I went Supreme.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So that's that's not a good feeling coming. So

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Speaker 2: you're not in custody, everybody's there sentencing day, obviously, did

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Speaker 2: you have a sentence indication or an agreement that if

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Speaker 2: you played guilty that you would only do a certain

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Speaker 2: amount of time or was it just.

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Speaker 4: Nothing I had? Oh wow, yes, so I had. I

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Speaker 4: had a two day sentence, and it was possible that

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Speaker 4: the judge would have revoked my bail after the first day,

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Speaker 4: or if he hadn't have made the decision on the

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Speaker 4: first day, which is what would what happened. But thankfully

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Speaker 4: he didn't revoke my bail. So I went home that night.

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Speaker 4: So I knew that the following day was like D Day.

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Speaker 4: That was it. There. I was not coming home. I

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Speaker 4: knew it was going to be custodial. I just didn't

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Speaker 4: know how long.

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Speaker 2: How did you feel, though, I mean, look, I couldn't imagine.

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Speaker 2: I have to admit I I'd never liked once going

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Speaker 2: into court for sentencing. I always found being in custody

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Speaker 2: at the time of sentencing was never easy, but easier. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're already there, You're already kicking your you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're already in the realm of things. Your your mind's different. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but you know that, I know that uneasy feeling when

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Speaker 2: you're sitting there in the box and you're listening to

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Speaker 2: your sentence get handed down, even the words you know,

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Speaker 2: two year sentence, you know, suspended and it's like, oh fuck,

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Speaker 2: now five years with the suspend it and good behavior

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Speaker 2: and you know that moment of like my last one

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Speaker 2: was I was it was a technicality, so I had

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Speaker 2: to get the rising of the court and to do that,

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Speaker 2: they had to sentence me on the spot to custody

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Speaker 2: whilst the judge and I were in the court and

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Speaker 2: everybody whilst I was in the court. I was sentenced

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Speaker 2: in custody. Once the judge had left her residing chair,

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Speaker 2: then I was automatically releasing. The sentence was done, but

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Speaker 2: then there was a new suspended sentence on top of that. Right,

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Speaker 2: that was freaky because it was just like, yeah, what's

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Speaker 2: going on. Yeah, you know, one minute you're sort of

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Speaker 2: thinking I'm not going to do the next minute you're

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Speaker 2: told you're in custody. Next minute you hold that you're

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Speaker 2: free to go. And it is it's a mind boggling feeling.

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Speaker 4: It is, for sure. But yeah, like so surreal saying

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Speaker 4: goodbye to your friends and family before you all walk

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Speaker 4: into the courtroom. Because once you've given your sentence, that's it.

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Speaker 4: And you know, you look at everyone before that door

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Speaker 4: closs and it's just like what the hell Like, it's

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Speaker 4: just it's kind of like, is this really my life?

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Speaker 3: I think the worst feeling when they turn you around

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Speaker 3: and they literally walk you out that little door the corridor,

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Speaker 3: and you know, you go fucking you go into a maze.

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Speaker 3: And that's why a lot of people won't know is

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Speaker 3: from a courtroom you're taken into, it's not just a

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Speaker 3: cell directly behind your It's a full maze.

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Speaker 2: Of lists in the city, under the ground, and you're

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Speaker 2: just your head's just spinning. You have no idea or

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Speaker 2: your bearings, and until you come out in the truck

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Speaker 2: and you're out the little people trying to where you are.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy, it is.

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Speaker 4: It is. So yeah, they took me down and and

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Speaker 4: then I went from there to the Downing Center to

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Speaker 4: wait forever everybody there to finish up for the day.

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Speaker 4: And then from there we went to Surrey Hills. But

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Speaker 4: I just remember it wasn't like a proper prison truck.

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Speaker 4: It was one of usually like the medical transfer bands

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Speaker 4: where you're in like this tiny, tiny box and if

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Speaker 4: you suffer from claustrophobia, like you're gone because this thing is.

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Speaker 2: I was at one of the vans, one of the

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Speaker 2: actually mans. Yeah, the windowed out sliding. You hop into

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Speaker 2: this tiny little silver box, shut the door in, then

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Speaker 2: they shut the door behind us.

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Speaker 4: Literally if you're like, knees are almost touching your teeth, yeap.

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Speaker 4: And then I went to Surrey Hills. I spent a

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Speaker 4: night there and almost to the next one. I think

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Speaker 4: we left Surrey Hills at like ten o'clock the following

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Speaker 4: night to go to Malowa. And there were a couple

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Speaker 4: of dolls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wait on the trucks to come all in from

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Speaker 2: the four yep.

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Speaker 4: They were waiting obviously for court to finish, sort everybody out,

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Speaker 4: figure out where everyone's going. And then we were on

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Speaker 4: the truck to Malowa. And yeah, even even there, like

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Speaker 4: by the time you go through reception and get all

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Speaker 4: of your stuff and and see the nurse and everything,

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Speaker 4: it was.

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Speaker 2: I have a pie waiting for you. Was it hot

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Speaker 2: dog sausage rolls?

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Speaker 4: I can't remember. I think it was like sandwiches. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you prefer a sandwich, right, cold pies and brew It

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Speaker 4: was definitely pastries at Surrey Hills though, because it was

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Speaker 4: the weekend, so you know, the weekend is past trees only,

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Speaker 4: absolutely terrible. And I remember being in my first cell

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Speaker 4: in Blahlah blah, and the stainless steel it like it

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Speaker 4: just I could just smell blood, That's what it smelled

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Speaker 4: like that like metallic key smell.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I think the worst part is too, when

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Speaker 2: you're given an allocated if it's you know, well, if

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Speaker 2: you're going into reception, you generally got a seally that's

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Speaker 2: coming as well, and it's in a putrid cell that

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Speaker 2: hasn't been properly Yeah. Yeah, you're looking at everything gone.

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Speaker 2: How I'm not even going to use that toilet basically

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Speaker 2: sleep on that mattress like you've got no pillow. You

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Speaker 2: got none your pillow as you jump up because you've

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Speaker 2: got to roll it up and stick it in your

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Speaker 2: case with your your plastic bowl and fork and stin.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And I remember, like my ears would be really

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Speaker 4: sore in the morning from like you know, sleeping on

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Speaker 4: something so hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I remember one night in silver Water, like I was

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Speaker 4: so cold and I just couldn't get warm, and it

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Speaker 4: was my feet that were cold, and I had socks on,

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Speaker 4: so I would like get out of bed and turn

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Speaker 4: the hot water on I mean at least we had

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Speaker 4: hot water, but turn the hot water on and just

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Speaker 4: like run it over my feet for a bit just

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Speaker 4: to warm them up because I just couldn't fall asleep

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Speaker 4: it was so freaking cold. Yeah, but there's all these

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Speaker 4: different things and tricks and ways that you like learn

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Speaker 4: to make your bed even so that you're warm or

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Speaker 4: as warm as possible.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. Oh look, you know it's once again. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're not here to We're here to deter. I think

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Speaker 2: that's the word. And you know, we can share these

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Speaker 2: truths about what it actually is and what it is

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Speaker 2: that people actually go through because unless you've been there,

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Speaker 2: but like there's so much bullshit out there and so

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Speaker 2: many stories, and it's it's not as it seems. It

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Speaker 2: can be worse and sometimes not as bad. You know,

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Speaker 2: it just depends. But you know it's important to be

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Speaker 2: able to have it from different perspectives. Obviously. You know,

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Speaker 2: a female is very different going into custody than a male.

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Speaker 2: I mean, male is very intimidating and overwhelming because everyone's

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Speaker 2: eyeball and everyone everybody's waiting for someone to say something,

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Speaker 2: everyone's on edge. Everybody's just full on fueled with emotion,

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Speaker 2: which I've no doubt's the same as woman. But you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe a lot of women licking their lips coming, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like I can assure that shit

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Speaker 2: doesn't happen in the men. It's more what's he got?

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Speaker 2: What am I taking? You know? Like, yeah, so you

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Speaker 2: let's talk about a little bit more about you know,

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Speaker 2: your time, and just a brief over because it will

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Speaker 2: two years of your two and a half years.

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Speaker 4: Ah. I spent maybe three or four weeks in silver Water.

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Speaker 4: I guess the good thing was I was already sentenced

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Speaker 4: so they could classify me. So I got classified as

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Speaker 4: a C two. From there, I went to de Winnea.

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Speaker 4: I spent a few months in de Winnia, and I

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Speaker 4: didn't mind it there. I mean, in terms of jail.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't stand it. I preferred the main I think

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Speaker 2: that you had a bit of better structure in the

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Speaker 2: way that you're able to do your jail and just

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Speaker 2: in and out short days, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: Like you learn about politics and the style and the

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Speaker 2: way it's all run. The days are long. You're in

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Speaker 2: a group, you've always fucking drama.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. When I moved to smaller jails for sure. That

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Speaker 4: was like you can see why there are certain jail rules,

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Speaker 4: and they kind of have to be there for a

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Speaker 4: reason because when you get into these smaller centers, everyone

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Speaker 4: knows everybody else's business. No one minds their own business.

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Speaker 4: And because there's not I guess, you know, the jail

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Speaker 4: politics and rules and things like that that go on

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Speaker 4: in these smaller centers, everyone just gets it gets worse,

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Speaker 4: like it's super bitchy and stuff. But yeah, I guess

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Speaker 4: for me, with my time, it was super important for

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Speaker 4: me to just do as much as I could throughout

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Speaker 4: my day. So like I always made sure that I worked.

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Speaker 4: I tried to do jobs that were labor intensive. I

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Speaker 4: started in the library. That was too long of a

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Speaker 4: day for me, so I moved into buyops and I

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Speaker 4: ah enjoyed that. Yeah, I went into buyops and then yeah,

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Speaker 4: like after work, I would just go for a run

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Speaker 4: or train with a couple of girls who would train

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Speaker 4: and I guess just try and like wear myself out

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Speaker 4: as much as possible so that at night you could sleep.

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Speaker 4: Basically that was always my main goal. And obviously just

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Speaker 4: to stay fit. I you know, did that while I

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Speaker 4: was on bail. It's always been a thing for me anyway,

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Speaker 4: so it helps with me mentally more than anything else.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, made sure that I trained. I did a

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Speaker 4: lot of running when I was at De Winea because

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Speaker 4: it's big enough for you to be able to do that.

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Speaker 4: And then I moved out to EMU Planes and that

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Speaker 4: was again it was different because I think at that stage,

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Speaker 4: like the most amount of girls that were in it

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Speaker 4: at that time, we're thirty five, and it just kept dropping.

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Speaker 4: It never got back up to anywhere near its full capacity,

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Speaker 4: which was only eighty as opposed to like hundreds in

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Speaker 4: De Winear or silver Water. It was a bit better there,

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Speaker 4: like we had actual like a little gym and stuff

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Speaker 4: like that, whereas I'd never had anything like that before.

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Speaker 4: So I would either do a lot of running or

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Speaker 4: my partner would send me in by letters like programs

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Speaker 4: of like body weight or totally equipment free workouts. I

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Speaker 4: still have them. I had this huge pile of all

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Speaker 4: of the programs that I used to do. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: just try and keep really busy. And I really thought,

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Speaker 4: I thought, Okay, I've got two and a half years.

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Speaker 4: While I'm in there, I'm going to get a degree

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Speaker 4: or something. Well, wasn't I dreaming?

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Speaker 2: Isn't It isn't a case put in a bluey Sorry

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Speaker 2: we can't sorry hello ed education. I think it was

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Speaker 2: called in you you what education? There is no education,

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Speaker 2: no course.

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Speaker 4: Nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing. And so people everybody is just

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Speaker 4: sitting there, you know, boord shit list, wasting their time,

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Speaker 4: not learning any new skills, not learning any value within

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Speaker 4: themselves or you know, realizing that they're capable of things.

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Speaker 4: It's a freaking huge gap that we have in our

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Speaker 4: system of no education or no upskilling. It's just ridiculous.

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Speaker 4: And for me, right, my case was directly related to

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Speaker 4: my job, so I need to now find something different

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Speaker 4: to do. I don't have to, but it's obviously more

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Speaker 4: difficult for me to get work in that you know,

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Speaker 4: line of work that I was doing. So it would have.

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Speaker 2: Been well, it's a massive trust thing, isn't it. So

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Speaker 2: that level of company information, and.

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Speaker 4: It makes me nervous too. So even for me, like

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Speaker 4: I lost a whole lot of confidence in doing it

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Speaker 4: anyway because I was so scared of doing the wrong thing.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, so far out the fact that you know,

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Speaker 4: there is no opportunity for education was just mind blowing.

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Speaker 4: To me, So that's what I thought that I would do,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, that didn't happen, and then I went to

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Speaker 4: a transitional center and then eventually got works release and dayly.

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Speaker 2: Eve and went through that process. Did you I did, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: continue doing over two years or eighteen months or something,

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Speaker 2: was it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that's so important too, particularly for

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Speaker 4: long terms. I think it's you know, it's it is

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Speaker 4: definitely a program that is set up and that runs

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Speaker 4: that is helpful for people to experience getting back in

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Speaker 4: the community. And even when I left, there was you know,

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Speaker 4: a girl leaving and she'd done a long time, so

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Speaker 4: to work out a smartphone like that had to be

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Speaker 4: taught and things like that. So when you're I guess

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Speaker 4: at a low security and you're in places that I

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Speaker 4: guess have the capability of being able to go in

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Speaker 4: the community and just get used to things. Again, if

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Speaker 4: you've done seven, ten or more years, it's a lot

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Speaker 4: to get used to. And as well, coming out after COVID,

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Speaker 4: everything transitioned onto people's phones and things like that, so

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Speaker 4: they were even things that I didn't know about and

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Speaker 4: I was still in touch with the outside world prior

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Speaker 4: to going in, and it wasn't a huge amount of time.

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Speaker 4: That's so much a change, but there were still changes.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I think we definitely need more support for

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Speaker 4: people coming out, And for sure, thats just what contributes

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Speaker 4: to this revolving door of If you don't have a

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Speaker 4: network of people who are going to support you when

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Speaker 4: you about or who have the capability to support you

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Speaker 4: and the means to support you, it's so hard to

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Speaker 4: land back on your feet and get employment or just

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Speaker 4: have somewhere to be while you transition. So yeah, I

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Speaker 4: was super blessed that I have that, you know, that

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Speaker 4: network and that level of support from family and friends.

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Speaker 4: But for the people who don't, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that's you know what I really agree with you.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is, you know, with the clink now,

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Speaker 2: you know, we've had our period of three years of

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Speaker 2: you know, stories of redemption, which your story is you know,

349
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Speaker 2: technically of redemption, but it's bigger than that. I'm you know,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to have you on as a guest because

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Speaker 2: of your lived experience, because of what you've went through

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Speaker 2: and what you are wanting to do and what you

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Speaker 2: are doing now, which I think is commendable. And I

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Speaker 2: feel that you know this is the purpose of the

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Speaker 2: growth of the Clink is to enable people to come

356
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Speaker 2: out even from in jail and stuff. And if they

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Speaker 2: come across the Clink, we're providing a toolbox of as

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Speaker 2: I like to call it, life tools to be able

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Speaker 2: to help somebody who doesn't have that skill set, doesn't

360
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Speaker 2: have that knowledge, doesn't have that way of thinking to

361
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Speaker 2: believe in themselves and believe and like yourself. You know,

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Speaker 2: your whole world was turned upside down from you know,

363
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Speaker 2: like you said, you come from a loving kind carrying upbringing.

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Speaker 2: There was nothing too untoward, and next minute you're doing

365
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Speaker 2: jail for one of Australia's biggest crimes, like when it

366
00:19:46,321 --> 00:19:49,001
Speaker 2: comes to fraud, like let's let's muck around. One hundred

367
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Speaker 2: and five million dollars is no small amount. So you're

368
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Speaker 2: at the top of the food chain in a part

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Speaker 2: of history in that respect within the country. How does

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Speaker 2: one and then get back on her feet or his

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Speaker 2: feet and be the best that they can be? You know,

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Speaker 2: what are the tools that you're able to pass on

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Speaker 2: to others that you know are going to come out

374
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Speaker 2: and have these same sort of feelings but may not

375
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Speaker 2: have the support, don't have that network and you know what,

376
00:20:15,681 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 2: it's all bullshit. They give you a couple of numbers,

377
00:20:18,241 --> 00:20:20,561
Speaker 2: they'll give you a release check that's I think about

378
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 2: four hundred dollars. I don't even know how much it is.

379
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Speaker 2: But at the end of it, it's not even a

380
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Speaker 2: night's accommodation in a hotel leat alone, putting food on

381
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Speaker 2: your feet, clothes on your back, you know, like, especially

382
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Speaker 2: from a woman's point of view, necessities for living, for

383
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Speaker 2: just hygiene and things that you require as women. Us

384
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 2: men could probably kick around for a few days extra,

385
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,321
Speaker 2: you know, just in what we've got off whatever, But

386
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,601
Speaker 2: there's so much more to coming home and to finding

387
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,041
Speaker 2: your feet and finding that self belief and knowing that

388
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Speaker 2: you can get through this and it is going to

389
00:20:51,561 --> 00:20:54,801
Speaker 2: be tough, there's no two ways about it. Yeah, you're

390
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 2: now released, and wow those two and a half years.

391
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Speaker 2: And I'm sure that there's a lot there that we

392
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Speaker 2: could touch on that we don't need to, And I, respectfully,

393
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Speaker 2: I don't like to go down too many different roads

394
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,880
Speaker 2: like that with my guests. Look, I've been I get it,

395
00:21:10,921 --> 00:21:13,121
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of our listeners have. So

396
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Speaker 2: what inspires me is how people come back from these

397
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Speaker 2: hardships and these choices and you know things that we

398
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,561
Speaker 2: we do do that put us in these places. You're

399
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Speaker 2: now released. Let's talk about that day that you've come

400
00:21:26,921 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 2: home to your loving arms of partner and family and yeah,

401
00:21:31,241 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 2: how was it and where was your mind at?

402
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Speaker 4: So it's crazy, like you think about this day for

403
00:21:39,561 --> 00:21:42,321
Speaker 4: you know, every day that you're inside and you, I

404
00:21:42,321 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 4: guess you're envision of what you think it's going to

405
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Speaker 4: be like. And you know, people say, what's the first

406
00:21:46,561 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 4: thing you're going to do?

407
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Speaker 2: And did you get dressed in the car park?

408
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:53,681
Speaker 4: No? I was because I was in transitional I could

409
00:21:53,681 --> 00:21:56,360
Speaker 4: wear cibbies anyway, so I didn't have to. I didn't

410
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Speaker 4: have to get out of my greens.

411
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Speaker 2: I remember my wife literally turning up to back with

412
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Speaker 2: a brand new pair of shoes, bran new pair of assets,

413
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: brand new pair n a nice little Gann outfit, and

414
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Speaker 2: I was just like, wo there we go off. We

415
00:22:11,201 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: went from Bathurst to Sydney for the night before we

416
00:22:13,281 --> 00:22:17,201
Speaker 2: flow home. But you know, you do, people don't get it.

417
00:22:17,441 --> 00:22:19,881
Speaker 2: You don't come out and the world's.

418
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Speaker 4: Life just continues. No, not at all. And I think

419
00:22:23,801 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 4: it's you know the realization that that's the reality is

420
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Speaker 4: that that's not how it's going to be. Like you said,

421
00:22:30,481 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 4: it's going to be tough, but for me it was

422
00:22:35,321 --> 00:22:40,201
Speaker 4: it was just not looking you know, the picture too

423
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Speaker 4: far ahead and not looking at it, you know, where

424
00:22:44,521 --> 00:22:46,801
Speaker 4: do I wish I was here now? And things like that,

425
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,321
Speaker 4: because it's just it's too overwhelming. So I for sure,

426
00:22:51,561 --> 00:22:54,921
Speaker 4: I'm just like, you've got to break it down into

427
00:22:55,001 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 4: what you can do that day, whether it's you know,

428
00:22:58,201 --> 00:23:01,321
Speaker 4: make an appointment with someone at Services New South Wales

429
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 4: or go to Services New South Wales that day. There's

430
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Speaker 4: you know, we're only humans trying to get back on

431
00:23:06,801 --> 00:23:08,881
Speaker 4: our feet. We can't. Rome wasn't built in a day,

432
00:23:08,961 --> 00:23:09,561
Speaker 4: so it's just.

433
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,761
Speaker 2: Your license has expired, your bank accounts may have been yeah, exactly. No,

434
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,161
Speaker 2: you don't have a passport obviously because you can't leave

435
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 2: the country that's going to be current. You know, like

436
00:23:18,281 --> 00:23:21,521
Speaker 2: you've got all these things that we don't think about

437
00:23:21,561 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: every day because they're available to us in our purses

438
00:23:23,761 --> 00:23:26,201
Speaker 2: and our wallets on back prone we just naturally think,

439
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,121
Speaker 2: okay it somebody steals it. It's like, holy fuck, oh

440
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,841
Speaker 2: my world's fallen apart, and it is hard. It is

441
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:35,721
Speaker 2: even replacing that today. Imagine coming home and having nothing.

442
00:23:36,521 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, yeah, exactly, nothing.

443
00:23:41,481 --> 00:23:43,761
Speaker 2: Hard, you know, like the simple things that we take

444
00:23:43,801 --> 00:23:44,321
Speaker 2: for granted.

445
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. And I think it's with anything, you know,

446
00:23:47,241 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 4: if you're trying to achieve something or it is, you know,

447
00:23:50,241 --> 00:23:53,281
Speaker 4: the case that you're getting back on your feet, you've

448
00:23:53,321 --> 00:23:54,801
Speaker 4: just got to take it a day at a time.

449
00:23:54,961 --> 00:24:00,120
Speaker 4: And I think it really it comes down to just

450
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,241
Speaker 4: your attitude and your mindset to and you know, acknowledging

451
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 4: that you are in a shit space and it is

452
00:24:06,521 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 4: really hard. But you know, sitting in that and dwelling

453
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,001
Speaker 4: in that is really not going to get you, you know,

454
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,201
Speaker 4: any further forward. So, like I say, break it down,

455
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 4: and what I learned while I was in there and

456
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,161
Speaker 4: since coming home too, is you can be bitter or

457
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 4: you can be better, but you can't you can't be both.

458
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,441
Speaker 4: You know, it's one or the other. And at times

459
00:24:28,521 --> 00:24:32,201
Speaker 4: it might be a bit bitter, and you know, there's

460
00:24:32,281 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 4: no you don't just have to shove that under the

461
00:24:34,961 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 4: carpet and you know, hide the trauma, waiting for it

462
00:24:37,281 --> 00:24:39,441
Speaker 4: to come back up another day sort of thing. But

463
00:24:39,481 --> 00:24:42,761
Speaker 4: you've just got to, you know, turn on a really

464
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,481
Speaker 4: positive attitude. And it's not that I'm saying that from

465
00:24:48,521 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 4: a rainbows and unicorns kind of way. It's from a

466
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 4: place of reality because I've been there and I've done it.

467
00:24:54,521 --> 00:24:57,441
Speaker 4: I've I've sat in my darkest times and I've looked

468
00:24:57,441 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 4: at my life where I've lost literally everything. Other than

469
00:25:01,561 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 4: the people, I've lost everything. I don't have, you know,

470
00:25:05,241 --> 00:25:07,561
Speaker 4: have a dollar to my name, and I'm even still

471
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,681
Speaker 4: struggling with that two years after I've been released. It

472
00:25:10,721 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 4: has been hard because I came home and you know,

473
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 4: then I you know, became a mom, so I haven't

474
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 4: been working full time and things like that, and it

475
00:25:20,921 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 4: is still hard for me to deal with. But I can.

476
00:25:24,321 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 4: I can choose whether I want to sit in that

477
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 4: of it being hard, or whether I want to just

478
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 4: think of something small that I do move forward and

479
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: you gay momentum on it. You know, it compounds and

480
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,321
Speaker 4: it does lead you to where you want to be,

481
00:25:45,561 --> 00:25:48,761
Speaker 4: and it takes time, and that for me is really

482
00:25:48,801 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 4: hard to I'm like, let's get it done now, you know,

483
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 4: I don't want to wait for this, or if I

484
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,801
Speaker 4: can do something now, I'll do it. But again, it

485
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,881
Speaker 4: just becomes overwhelming because you want everything yesterday. So yeah,

486
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 4: I really, I just think that we've all got a

487
00:26:04,201 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 4: choice of how we set out in our day. I

488
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 4: still lose my shit and feel sorry for myself sometimes

489
00:26:11,961 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 4: there's no doubt about it. And I'm overwhelmed.

490
00:26:14,441 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 2: And that's now going to be an everyday part of

491
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: your life. Is something I say to people. I mean,

492
00:26:20,041 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: it took me, took me far out. Well I'm still

493
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say now, but two thousand and so, ten

494
00:26:28,721 --> 00:26:34,121
Speaker 2: years ago, eleven twelve years ago, I was released. Now,

495
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,761
Speaker 2: that's not the time that I spent for three months

496
00:26:36,801 --> 00:26:40,001
Speaker 2: on remand with this other crap, but my last sentence,

497
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,041
Speaker 2: So we're talking a long time ago. It took me

498
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 2: a good eighteen months to actually physically want to sit

499
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,041
Speaker 2: in the lounge room or outside of Like I would

500
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:54,281
Speaker 2: come in eat and I'd have a TV in my bedroom,

501
00:26:54,321 --> 00:26:56,801
Speaker 2: which probably wasn't a good thing, and I'll go and

502
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,801
Speaker 2: just put myself on the bed, and that was like

503
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,681
Speaker 2: even my children would have to come in to see

504
00:27:01,721 --> 00:27:07,521
Speaker 2: me because I just I just was so I guess

505
00:27:07,521 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 2: it used to just four walls, and my day would

506
00:27:11,481 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 2: end early, my days would start early, you know, like

507
00:27:15,761 --> 00:27:19,801
Speaker 2: you just have to try and break that cycle, and it.

508
00:27:19,721 --> 00:27:22,281
Speaker 4: Isn't easy, but it was up to you to do

509
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 4: it right of course.

510
00:27:23,921 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: I mean, look at it annoyed the family because at

511
00:27:26,241 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I wasn't being sociable, I

512
00:27:29,481 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 2: was reclused. I was very hard to live with because

513
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 2: I was anal about certain things and set my ways.

514
00:27:36,241 --> 00:27:39,481
Speaker 2: And as you know, you know yourself, these are things

515
00:27:39,481 --> 00:27:41,761
Speaker 2: that you have to become and adapt to and this

516
00:27:41,921 --> 00:27:47,001
Speaker 2: is part of the process. So you know, breaking that

517
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: cycle and understanding and learning just how much life I

518
00:27:53,761 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: guess can be different at the blink of an eyelid,

519
00:27:56,801 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 2: and a choice.

520
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 4: Is very important. You know, you've got to change in jail,

521
00:28:03,681 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 4: you have to change yourself because you have to change

522
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,361
Speaker 4: yourself to the environment that you're in. But then you've

523
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,681
Speaker 4: again got to change yourself when you do come home.

524
00:28:12,801 --> 00:28:14,881
Speaker 4: And I think it, you know, it gets tiring too,

525
00:28:15,001 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 4: because you're fighting for something every day, not you know,

526
00:28:19,441 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 4: I don't mean physically or anything like that, but you're

527
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: fighting to cope with what is happening. And in prison,

528
00:28:26,561 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 4: like you have this guard up all the time because

529
00:28:29,441 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 4: you have to. You know, it's letting go of that

530
00:28:32,321 --> 00:28:36,241
Speaker 4: and it's readjusting to the outside world. Like you say,

531
00:28:36,321 --> 00:28:39,441
Speaker 4: you were, you know, anal about certain things, and now

532
00:28:39,481 --> 00:28:44,681
Speaker 4: you've got to reintegrate with your family and learn again

533
00:28:44,961 --> 00:28:46,841
Speaker 4: or change again how you know, we're to live in

534
00:28:46,881 --> 00:28:51,081
Speaker 4: that family unit. So it definitely takes time. And and

535
00:28:51,121 --> 00:28:53,881
Speaker 4: you know, for someone who possibly could listen to this

536
00:28:53,961 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 4: after being released, I haven't even been out yet for

537
00:28:57,801 --> 00:29:01,641
Speaker 4: as long as I was in. So you know as well,

538
00:29:01,641 --> 00:29:03,441
Speaker 4: if if you kind of just take a step back

539
00:29:03,441 --> 00:29:06,121
Speaker 4: and look at it that way too, you're not going

540
00:29:06,161 --> 00:29:10,641
Speaker 4: to undo a few years worth of routine and structure

541
00:29:11,641 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 4: in a couple of weeks. That's not going to happen.

542
00:29:15,441 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 4: And it, Yeah, it just takes time to get on

543
00:29:18,481 --> 00:29:21,681
Speaker 4: your feet, and it would be it would be amazing

544
00:29:21,921 --> 00:29:29,641
Speaker 4: if the services were I guess easier to access. And

545
00:29:29,761 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 4: like you say, they give you a phone number and

546
00:29:32,721 --> 00:29:35,001
Speaker 4: you know that doesn't always work out or there's a

547
00:29:35,041 --> 00:29:38,521
Speaker 4: weight and things like that, and that's super hard. But

548
00:29:39,841 --> 00:29:43,721
Speaker 4: I think if you can kind of just I guess,

549
00:29:44,601 --> 00:29:49,401
Speaker 4: come from you know, your own place of self worth

550
00:29:49,481 --> 00:29:53,841
Speaker 4: and capability and realization of what you have just gone through,

551
00:29:54,001 --> 00:29:56,321
Speaker 4: then like you're invincible.

552
00:29:56,761 --> 00:29:59,041
Speaker 2: You've survived. That's right, And I think that that's a

553
00:29:59,081 --> 00:30:01,881
Speaker 2: really good way of putting it because you know, even

554
00:30:01,881 --> 00:30:05,161
Speaker 2: in our toughest days for anybody, and that doesn't mean

555
00:30:05,241 --> 00:30:07,521
Speaker 2: to say anybody that's had to you know, be in

556
00:30:07,561 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: custody or.

557
00:30:08,321 --> 00:30:10,641
Speaker 4: Know, there's so many people. Yeah, who's just.

558
00:30:11,441 --> 00:30:15,601
Speaker 2: Life like it is? It's it is and can be

559
00:30:16,161 --> 00:30:22,441
Speaker 2: so difficult. You know, you've come home, you're now mum,

560
00:30:22,921 --> 00:30:25,561
Speaker 2: and look, thank you for being vulnerable and admitting you know,

561
00:30:25,681 --> 00:30:28,281
Speaker 2: like life isn't perfect. You still lose your shit. There

562
00:30:28,321 --> 00:30:32,041
Speaker 2: is time there where you struggle because you know that now,

563
00:30:32,121 --> 00:30:35,041
Speaker 2: as I said, will forever be a part of your

564
00:30:35,081 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: life and we can put it to the side as

565
00:30:38,001 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: much as we want or we grow from it. I

566
00:30:40,521 --> 00:30:43,401
Speaker 2: think that what you wanted to what you're wanting to

567
00:30:43,441 --> 00:30:46,481
Speaker 2: achieve now and put that experience into a really positive

568
00:30:46,521 --> 00:30:50,641
Speaker 2: spin is really cool. And let's touch on that now

569
00:30:50,721 --> 00:30:54,801
Speaker 2: and what it's like being home with Bob and you know,

570
00:30:54,921 --> 00:30:57,481
Speaker 2: in those loving arms of the family, and also to

571
00:30:57,641 --> 00:31:01,641
Speaker 2: having choices now you're able to make decisions and what

572
00:31:01,681 --> 00:31:03,041
Speaker 2: you want to do and giving back.

573
00:31:03,321 --> 00:31:07,081
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think like the decision thing is such

574
00:31:07,081 --> 00:31:10,241
Speaker 4: a massive, a massive thing for me because I think

575
00:31:10,281 --> 00:31:14,761
Speaker 4: when people think prison they think big barbed wire fence

576
00:31:14,841 --> 00:31:18,841
Speaker 4: and physical barriers and lack of freedom, which is of

577
00:31:18,921 --> 00:31:22,561
Speaker 4: course true. But I found the biggest thing was your

578
00:31:22,601 --> 00:31:25,721
Speaker 4: decisions are taken away from you. You don't get to

579
00:31:25,761 --> 00:31:27,641
Speaker 4: choose what you're eating that day, You don't get to

580
00:31:27,681 --> 00:31:30,121
Speaker 4: choose what time you are let out of your cell,

581
00:31:30,401 --> 00:31:32,361
Speaker 4: or what time you're waking up, or what time you're

582
00:31:32,841 --> 00:31:35,481
Speaker 4: back in your cell, and everything like that. It's the decisions.

583
00:31:35,521 --> 00:31:38,201
Speaker 4: And then you do come out back into this world

584
00:31:38,241 --> 00:31:40,641
Speaker 4: and then everything's up to you again, like straight away.

585
00:31:41,161 --> 00:31:44,641
Speaker 4: You know, it's those decisions that I now make, or

586
00:31:44,681 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 4: have to make every day that I am thankful that

587
00:31:47,041 --> 00:31:50,041
Speaker 4: I get to choose because I didn't for so long.

588
00:31:50,561 --> 00:31:54,321
Speaker 4: But upon reflection as well, it's learning from the decisions

589
00:31:54,321 --> 00:31:57,881
Speaker 4: that I made to get me into the position that

590
00:31:57,921 --> 00:32:00,841
Speaker 4: I was in in the first place, and just really

591
00:32:00,881 --> 00:32:04,081
Speaker 4: taking them a lot more seriously. The choices that I

592
00:32:04,121 --> 00:32:06,881
Speaker 4: do have, the decisions that I do make knowing that

593
00:32:06,921 --> 00:32:10,201
Speaker 4: they're going to have consequences, whether they're negative or positive.

594
00:32:10,921 --> 00:32:13,041
Speaker 4: So I really try and focus on that. And I

595
00:32:13,081 --> 00:32:17,961
Speaker 4: think it's something as well that you know, if our

596
00:32:18,001 --> 00:32:21,841
Speaker 4: teens can learn from and adolescents, I mean, it's hard

597
00:32:21,841 --> 00:32:23,401
Speaker 4: when you're that h two because you kind of think

598
00:32:23,441 --> 00:32:26,721
Speaker 4: you know everything. I remember thinking I knew everything then too,

599
00:32:28,041 --> 00:32:32,281
Speaker 4: But yeah, so now I do like some speaking engagements

600
00:32:32,321 --> 00:32:36,361
Speaker 4: and stuff with the University of Sydney, and it's good

601
00:32:36,401 --> 00:32:39,561
Speaker 4: to be in the corporate space for me because that's

602
00:32:39,601 --> 00:32:42,281
Speaker 4: the space that I came from, and that's the space

603
00:32:42,361 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 4: that maybe people aren't super aware of these things or

604
00:32:48,321 --> 00:32:51,401
Speaker 4: no people you know who have been to prison.

605
00:32:51,881 --> 00:32:56,641
Speaker 2: That's actually quite quite smart and using your skill set

606
00:32:56,681 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: and tools that you already have and growing again with

607
00:33:01,041 --> 00:33:04,641
Speaker 2: the knowledge that you have from the experience. I really

608
00:33:04,641 --> 00:33:08,161
Speaker 2: really think that's valid, and I'd having said this to

609
00:33:08,201 --> 00:33:10,641
Speaker 2: somebody just recently, you know, like we look at a

610
00:33:10,641 --> 00:33:12,401
Speaker 2: lot of our youth and a lot of the trouble

611
00:33:12,401 --> 00:33:15,441
Speaker 2: that we're seeing, and I put it down to lack

612
00:33:15,481 --> 00:33:17,761
Speaker 2: of engagement, funding and so many more shows we could

613
00:33:17,761 --> 00:33:19,561
Speaker 2: get down a rabbit hole, but there's only one way

614
00:33:19,601 --> 00:33:21,561
Speaker 2: that they're going to go, and it's some jail or death.

615
00:33:22,241 --> 00:33:25,841
Speaker 2: It's very sad. I feel that, you know, the government

616
00:33:25,881 --> 00:33:28,241
Speaker 2: needs to take ownership, the police need to take ownership,

617
00:33:28,281 --> 00:33:30,361
Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, there's people like ourselves,

618
00:33:30,561 --> 00:33:33,761
Speaker 2: both male and female who are willing to contribute, give

619
00:33:33,841 --> 00:33:36,561
Speaker 2: back and assist and try and guide our young people.

620
00:33:36,601 --> 00:33:40,201
Speaker 2: But we are so restricted because of the way society

621
00:33:40,241 --> 00:33:43,121
Speaker 2: sees us. For you to be able to have speaking

622
00:33:43,201 --> 00:33:48,561
Speaker 2: engagements is phenomenal. I think, you know, you're working in

623
00:33:48,601 --> 00:33:52,721
Speaker 2: an area where you are already a very well experienced,

624
00:33:52,841 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: knowledgeable able to give back and educate, you know. And

625
00:33:57,001 --> 00:33:59,561
Speaker 2: I said to this person, we've got you know, people

626
00:33:59,601 --> 00:34:01,321
Speaker 2: stealing cars and sort of stuff. You said, I, how

627
00:34:01,361 --> 00:34:02,881
Speaker 2: do we stop? You know, how do we get that kid?

628
00:34:02,921 --> 00:34:05,201
Speaker 2: I said, well, you know, when you think about it,

629
00:34:05,601 --> 00:34:08,401
Speaker 2: you entice somebody with something that makes them feel good.

630
00:34:08,521 --> 00:34:11,241
Speaker 2: What did they like? Work out what it is that

631
00:34:11,481 --> 00:34:14,481
Speaker 2: gets that young person fired, you know, what fires them

632
00:34:14,561 --> 00:34:17,921
Speaker 2: up in their belly? So then give them an opportunity

633
00:34:17,921 --> 00:34:19,761
Speaker 2: for an example. And I know this might be a

634
00:34:19,761 --> 00:34:21,801
Speaker 2: little bit out there, but it wasn't. Only so long ago.

635
00:34:21,881 --> 00:34:23,761
Speaker 2: I did a lot of mentoring. We've troubled you through

636
00:34:23,881 --> 00:34:28,001
Speaker 2: different programs for four years I volunteered, and you know,

637
00:34:28,041 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: we come up with this part of the program where,

638
00:34:31,521 --> 00:34:35,081
Speaker 2: for example, this young person was a car thief and

639
00:34:35,121 --> 00:34:38,521
Speaker 2: he was quite good and loved these cars. So we're

640
00:34:38,561 --> 00:34:41,761
Speaker 2: able to get him involved in the panel beating industry

641
00:34:42,361 --> 00:34:44,401
Speaker 2: and mechanics sign of things, which he just took to

642
00:34:44,641 --> 00:34:46,921
Speaker 2: like it was just and he still messages me today.

643
00:34:47,601 --> 00:34:52,041
Speaker 2: And the thing with that was he instantly had a passion. Now,

644
00:34:52,041 --> 00:34:54,801
Speaker 2: this wonderful person who had this beat up, old wrecked

645
00:34:55,641 --> 00:34:58,561
Speaker 2: car there said to this young fella, if you stick

646
00:34:58,641 --> 00:35:01,361
Speaker 2: with me, I'll give you that car for you to

647
00:35:01,481 --> 00:35:04,921
Speaker 2: rebuild in your time and I'll help you with it.

648
00:35:05,361 --> 00:35:08,321
Speaker 2: So that he then had something to aim at, but

649
00:35:08,401 --> 00:35:12,401
Speaker 2: also something he could look at physically and know that

650
00:35:12,521 --> 00:35:15,361
Speaker 2: each time he went to work that was a step

651
00:35:15,401 --> 00:35:19,921
Speaker 2: forward in his future. So when the car eventually got finished,

652
00:35:20,801 --> 00:35:23,121
Speaker 2: he was gifted that vehicle. Now it wasn't a flash,

653
00:35:23,281 --> 00:35:25,481
Speaker 2: you know, you be on the top of the line anything,

654
00:35:25,841 --> 00:35:28,441
Speaker 2: but it was the whole point around how to better

655
00:35:28,481 --> 00:35:31,081
Speaker 2: this young man's life and give him an opportunity that

656
00:35:31,081 --> 00:35:34,441
Speaker 2: he didn't have. Amazing, which to me is along the

657
00:35:34,481 --> 00:35:38,081
Speaker 2: lines of what you're trying to achieve is preventation of

658
00:35:38,721 --> 00:35:43,521
Speaker 2: people being naive, I guess, or being conscious, being conscious

659
00:35:43,521 --> 00:35:48,921
Speaker 2: within the corporate world of what can happen, and.

660
00:35:48,841 --> 00:35:53,321
Speaker 4: You know, like you say, for him finding his passion

661
00:35:54,841 --> 00:35:58,561
Speaker 4: or looking at what drives these people to do it,

662
00:35:59,761 --> 00:36:02,601
Speaker 4: and in this case too, for me, it was I

663
00:36:02,641 --> 00:36:07,201
Speaker 4: want to be successful, I'm ambitious, but I wasn't doing

664
00:36:07,201 --> 00:36:12,281
Speaker 4: it down the right way. I wasn't fueling my ambition

665
00:36:12,361 --> 00:36:15,041
Speaker 4: and my drive down the right path. Had I have,

666
00:36:15,721 --> 00:36:18,561
Speaker 4: you know, sent it down another path, and you know,

667
00:36:18,681 --> 00:36:21,841
Speaker 4: things could have turned out really different. And yeah, just

668
00:36:21,841 --> 00:36:27,081
Speaker 4: just recognizing that in the corporate space and just having

669
00:36:28,001 --> 00:36:30,161
Speaker 4: some people aware of it when maybe they weren't before.

670
00:36:31,241 --> 00:36:34,001
Speaker 2: Do you look at things now and think to yourself, like,

671
00:36:34,081 --> 00:36:36,281
Speaker 2: and I am a believer that things happened for reason.

672
00:36:36,321 --> 00:36:39,281
Speaker 2: God knows why, because I question sometimes I'm in some

673
00:36:39,321 --> 00:36:42,041
Speaker 2: of the situations I'm in. But you know, I've got

674
00:36:42,081 --> 00:36:44,681
Speaker 2: to be remain optimistic and positive about it. And this

675
00:36:44,761 --> 00:36:46,481
Speaker 2: is the whole point of what we're trying to achieve

676
00:36:46,481 --> 00:36:49,121
Speaker 2: here today, and we lead to our guests is inspire others,

677
00:36:49,321 --> 00:36:52,441
Speaker 2: no matter what the hardship, find that little bit of

678
00:36:52,521 --> 00:36:57,321
Speaker 2: light and believe in you, you know, back yourself and

679
00:36:58,001 --> 00:37:00,281
Speaker 2: keep going forward and being the best you can be.

680
00:37:02,001 --> 00:37:05,041
Speaker 2: You know, I feel that it's it can be very

681
00:37:05,121 --> 00:37:08,401
Speaker 2: haunting at times because we all feel that shit, yeah,

682
00:37:08,641 --> 00:37:12,041
Speaker 2: I'm stuck. I'm not going to get there like for

683
00:37:12,121 --> 00:37:16,081
Speaker 2: you coming home, Okay, you've obviously had to really think

684
00:37:16,121 --> 00:37:20,521
Speaker 2: about obviously, mum. You know you're a family woman, you

685
00:37:20,521 --> 00:37:23,161
Speaker 2: have a partner, so there's so much more to life

686
00:37:23,241 --> 00:37:26,361
Speaker 2: than just yourself. Now, how do you bring the best

687
00:37:26,361 --> 00:37:32,121
Speaker 2: of you to your family financially, physically, mentally, And you've

688
00:37:32,161 --> 00:37:34,761
Speaker 2: put yourself in a space that you're passionate about obviously,

689
00:37:34,841 --> 00:37:36,481
Speaker 2: in something that you're very well aware of.

690
00:37:37,561 --> 00:37:41,921
Speaker 4: I guess, like for me, looking back at it now,

691
00:37:42,081 --> 00:37:45,041
Speaker 4: I definitely think that things do happen for a reason.

692
00:37:45,041 --> 00:37:48,321
Speaker 4: And while you're in the midst of it, you just think, surely, not, like,

693
00:37:48,441 --> 00:37:51,361
Speaker 4: what's this got to do with anything you do? You

694
00:37:51,561 --> 00:37:54,801
Speaker 4: have to you have to be able to have that

695
00:37:54,841 --> 00:37:58,721
Speaker 4: sort of experience or have had the experience in order

696
00:37:58,841 --> 00:38:01,881
Speaker 4: to be able to bring awareness or teach other people

697
00:38:02,001 --> 00:38:05,121
Speaker 4: or educate other people on it. And if they're I

698
00:38:05,161 --> 00:38:08,281
Speaker 4: weren't people like myself or you who have gone through

699
00:38:08,321 --> 00:38:13,001
Speaker 4: all of these things who had the ability to kind

700
00:38:13,001 --> 00:38:16,761
Speaker 4: of share it and pass it on, then I'm not

701
00:38:16,801 --> 00:38:19,761
Speaker 4: sure you know, any of us would be learning and growing.

702
00:38:19,881 --> 00:38:23,041
Speaker 4: So as hard and as difficult as it is, I

703
00:38:23,121 --> 00:38:28,201
Speaker 4: definitely think things do happen for a reason. For sure.

704
00:38:28,441 --> 00:38:34,081
Speaker 4: And and it took me getting into prison and actually

705
00:38:34,961 --> 00:38:42,281
Speaker 4: consistently sitting down with myself thinking about it, recognizing what

706
00:38:42,601 --> 00:38:46,081
Speaker 4: good it was that I did want to, you know,

707
00:38:46,241 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 4: gain out of it, and I guess turn a bad

708
00:38:49,561 --> 00:38:54,641
Speaker 4: situation into something worthwhile for sure. So you know, it

709
00:38:54,721 --> 00:38:57,241
Speaker 4: took all of those four am wake ups where I

710
00:38:57,241 --> 00:39:01,481
Speaker 4: would journal or you know, sit and read the Bible,

711
00:39:01,681 --> 00:39:07,081
Speaker 4: try and learn some you know, anything about about why

712
00:39:07,121 --> 00:39:10,361
Speaker 4: it might be that I am in the situation that

713
00:39:10,441 --> 00:39:15,321
Speaker 4: I am in and what I can give back from

714
00:39:15,321 --> 00:39:17,561
Speaker 4: it and not just make it about myself either. I

715
00:39:17,561 --> 00:39:21,001
Speaker 4: think that's when it just becomes that's when you can

716
00:39:21,041 --> 00:39:24,201
Speaker 4: really easily sit in it and dwell in it, when

717
00:39:24,281 --> 00:39:28,681
Speaker 4: you just make it about yourself and think no one

718
00:39:28,721 --> 00:39:32,001
Speaker 4: gets it and no one understands, and okay, so then

719
00:39:32,201 --> 00:39:34,801
Speaker 4: what can I do for people to get it and

720
00:39:34,841 --> 00:39:38,161
Speaker 4: for people to understand? And I wasn't the only one

721
00:39:38,201 --> 00:39:41,401
Speaker 4: sitting in prison. There's hundreds of other people sitting in prison,

722
00:39:41,441 --> 00:39:44,401
Speaker 4: so it doesn't just happen to me, you know, So

723
00:39:44,521 --> 00:39:48,001
Speaker 4: not just thinking that, but trying to think what can

724
00:39:48,041 --> 00:39:51,361
Speaker 4: I give back out of the situation that I've been

725
00:39:51,401 --> 00:39:55,241
Speaker 4: in and make something positive out of it and.

726
00:39:55,121 --> 00:39:58,081
Speaker 2: What is it that Devin really wants to do. What

727
00:39:58,201 --> 00:40:01,961
Speaker 2: is it that you're passionate about today and the direction.

728
00:40:02,281 --> 00:40:06,921
Speaker 4: I definitely would love to to help people more in

729
00:40:07,001 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 4: any way that I can, in terms of prevention and

730
00:40:13,081 --> 00:40:19,601
Speaker 4: you know, helping whether it's youth or or just you know,

731
00:40:19,681 --> 00:40:23,441
Speaker 4: adults and sometimes people who have been in and out

732
00:40:23,481 --> 00:40:27,001
Speaker 4: of jail and don't really know any different, just helping

733
00:40:27,041 --> 00:40:30,601
Speaker 4: them with getting a different direction and a different path

734
00:40:30,641 --> 00:40:35,201
Speaker 4: in their life. I think for sure, our governments and

735
00:40:35,281 --> 00:40:39,201
Speaker 4: services really learn a lot from people like us who

736
00:40:39,241 --> 00:40:43,001
Speaker 4: have lived experience. I think they're the ones that they

737
00:40:43,041 --> 00:40:48,601
Speaker 4: should be reaching out to and you know, gaining some

738
00:40:48,721 --> 00:40:52,361
Speaker 4: knowledge on how it feels, you know, how we all

739
00:40:52,441 --> 00:40:59,361
Speaker 4: might process it. Because those angry rages that happen inside

740
00:40:59,401 --> 00:41:04,121
Speaker 4: cells and things like that are from something much more

741
00:41:04,201 --> 00:41:07,041
Speaker 4: than the little thing that may have set it off.

742
00:41:07,801 --> 00:41:13,041
Speaker 4: So yeah, I would really like, I guess, to educate

743
00:41:13,081 --> 00:41:18,841
Speaker 4: as many as I can on understanding that these things

744
00:41:19,161 --> 00:41:22,521
Speaker 4: don't just happen to only certain people as well. You

745
00:41:22,561 --> 00:41:25,561
Speaker 4: don't have to come from a certain place in a

746
00:41:25,561 --> 00:41:28,641
Speaker 4: certain country or things like that. Like I had a

747
00:41:28,681 --> 00:41:32,281
Speaker 4: really normal, normal upbringing and it still happened to me

748
00:41:32,361 --> 00:41:36,281
Speaker 4: because of the decisions that I made, so really working

749
00:41:36,321 --> 00:41:39,521
Speaker 4: out how we can do things better, you know, to

750
00:41:39,641 --> 00:41:44,121
Speaker 4: avoid people consistently going back to jail and just giving

751
00:41:44,161 --> 00:41:49,121
Speaker 4: people the knowledge to be able to move forward. But

752
00:41:49,281 --> 00:41:55,841
Speaker 4: also the greatest society I guess, the awareness to not

753
00:41:55,881 --> 00:41:59,841
Speaker 4: always judge or assume and just be more open I guess,

754
00:41:59,921 --> 00:42:01,481
Speaker 4: to giving people a second chance.

755
00:42:02,001 --> 00:42:05,201
Speaker 2: What's two tools that you can leave today that I've

756
00:42:05,241 --> 00:42:09,281
Speaker 2: gotten you this far and allowed you to start to

757
00:42:09,321 --> 00:42:13,361
Speaker 2: find your feet and really embrace what you're passionate about

758
00:42:14,681 --> 00:42:17,561
Speaker 2: and enabling you to be up there and now delivering

759
00:42:17,681 --> 00:42:24,401
Speaker 2: speeches to corporates and through that space. Two important tools

760
00:42:24,401 --> 00:42:26,401
Speaker 2: that you would hand to somebody else that we could

761
00:42:26,401 --> 00:42:29,161
Speaker 2: put into life's toolbox here on the clink.

762
00:42:29,281 --> 00:42:33,361
Speaker 4: I think one of them would definitely be just breaking

763
00:42:33,401 --> 00:42:42,761
Speaker 4: things down, not getting overwhelmed and just thinking, okay, for

764
00:42:42,841 --> 00:42:46,361
Speaker 4: myself today, what can that be or what does that

765
00:42:46,441 --> 00:42:52,481
Speaker 4: look like? Just thinking about like one step you know,

766
00:42:52,601 --> 00:42:56,281
Speaker 4: every day that I can do consistently to get to

767
00:42:56,281 --> 00:42:59,241
Speaker 4: where I want to be. The next one would be

768
00:43:01,441 --> 00:43:04,721
Speaker 4: just your attitude. Like I say, you can be better

769
00:43:05,401 --> 00:43:06,641
Speaker 4: or you can be bitter, but you.

770
00:43:06,601 --> 00:43:07,881
Speaker 2: Can't be the best you can be.

771
00:43:08,481 --> 00:43:11,561
Speaker 4: Yeah, and some days that's not going to happen for sure,

772
00:43:11,841 --> 00:43:13,881
Speaker 4: Like some days it's not. Some days you're going to

773
00:43:13,921 --> 00:43:18,001
Speaker 4: take the bit of path and that's just reality. But

774
00:43:18,161 --> 00:43:21,201
Speaker 4: if you can just turn that around as quickly as

775
00:43:21,241 --> 00:43:24,161
Speaker 4: you can, think of just one small way that you

776
00:43:24,161 --> 00:43:28,041
Speaker 4: can be better, and you know you'll gain momentum from that.

777
00:43:28,601 --> 00:43:30,481
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I have to agree. I think, you know,

778
00:43:30,881 --> 00:43:33,841
Speaker 2: mindset is huge, and if we can get our mind

779
00:43:33,961 --> 00:43:38,081
Speaker 2: in a really sort of positive space. But as you say,

780
00:43:38,161 --> 00:43:41,681
Speaker 2: break it down, yeah, you know, like turn it into smaller,

781
00:43:42,801 --> 00:43:45,681
Speaker 2: smaller goals rather than always aiming for that I need

782
00:43:45,761 --> 00:43:48,241
Speaker 2: to be or I want to be there because it is.

783
00:43:48,321 --> 00:43:52,121
Speaker 2: It is slow, it's a stepping stone, but it's definitely achievable.

784
00:43:52,201 --> 00:43:56,001
Speaker 2: You've just got to give yourself the opportunity. And self

785
00:43:56,041 --> 00:43:59,241
Speaker 2: belief is huge, you know, Like I'm always telling people

786
00:43:59,281 --> 00:44:03,321
Speaker 2: one percent better each day because that's all you need

787
00:44:03,361 --> 00:44:05,841
Speaker 2: to be. You don't have to win the race, be competitive,

788
00:44:06,401 --> 00:44:08,921
Speaker 2: and it's only you you've got to compete against. It's

789
00:44:09,161 --> 00:44:12,241
Speaker 2: you know, forget about the Joneses and everybody else. I mean,

790
00:44:12,361 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: they're in their own race.

791
00:44:13,561 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 4: But you know what, Brent and I think that's such

792
00:44:15,481 --> 00:44:18,961
Speaker 4: a good point too, is not trying to keep up

793
00:44:19,001 --> 00:44:22,121
Speaker 4: with everybody else and me where everybody else is because.

794
00:44:21,921 --> 00:44:25,601
Speaker 2: We're all we've got to not give a it's whatever.

795
00:44:25,361 --> 00:44:28,041
Speaker 4: Such different journeys, Yeah for sure.

796
00:44:28,361 --> 00:44:30,881
Speaker 2: Yeah, And to me, I think that that's a really

797
00:44:31,001 --> 00:44:35,161
Speaker 2: valid point and something that you know from your experience

798
00:44:35,281 --> 00:44:38,641
Speaker 2: is really worthy. Look, I want to I know that

799
00:44:38,921 --> 00:44:41,681
Speaker 2: it's time that you've taken out of your family today,

800
00:44:41,801 --> 00:44:44,041
Speaker 2: So I want to firstly thank you for reaching out

801
00:44:44,081 --> 00:44:47,281
Speaker 2: and secondly for allowing me to have you on the

802
00:44:47,321 --> 00:44:50,841
Speaker 2: Clink and deliver your story. I think it's a very

803
00:44:51,441 --> 00:44:55,921
Speaker 2: good and interesting insight to know how life can really

804
00:44:55,961 --> 00:44:58,801
Speaker 2: take you on a downward spiral, but how you come

805
00:44:58,841 --> 00:45:02,001
Speaker 2: back is what it's all about. And that's exactly what

806
00:45:02,041 --> 00:45:05,001
Speaker 2: the Clink is about, is about giving people that in spray.

807
00:45:05,321 --> 00:45:08,361
Speaker 2: And I just want to say well done on everything

808
00:45:08,441 --> 00:45:11,241
Speaker 2: moving forward, and I'd love to keep in contacting hear

809
00:45:11,281 --> 00:45:12,921
Speaker 2: down the track how you're going and if we can

810
00:45:12,961 --> 00:45:16,881
Speaker 2: help and support what you are doing. Please let us know.

811
00:45:16,961 --> 00:45:19,561
Speaker 2: You've got an Instagram page. If anyone would like to

812
00:45:19,601 --> 00:45:22,801
Speaker 2: reach out or talk further with you, how can they

813
00:45:22,881 --> 00:45:23,441
Speaker 2: contact you?

814
00:45:23,881 --> 00:45:26,921
Speaker 4: Yes, I do firstly thank you so much for having me.

815
00:45:27,201 --> 00:45:32,561
Speaker 4: I appreciate everyone listening, and yeah, yeah, I really appreciate it.

816
00:45:32,601 --> 00:45:37,801
Speaker 4: So my Instagram is at Mind your Mistakes, and I

817
00:45:37,841 --> 00:45:40,841
Speaker 4: talk a little bit on there. I guess about the

818
00:45:40,921 --> 00:45:44,761
Speaker 4: jail experience and things like that, and it's just a

819
00:45:44,801 --> 00:45:47,761
Speaker 4: place if you know people. I think people are really

820
00:45:47,801 --> 00:45:51,681
Speaker 4: curious about it, which is all well and good, but

821
00:45:52,641 --> 00:45:56,361
Speaker 4: I guess it's also you know, bringing that awareness about

822
00:45:56,361 --> 00:45:58,361
Speaker 4: the fact that you know, people do also want a

823
00:45:58,401 --> 00:46:00,001
Speaker 4: second chance and to move on from it.

824
00:46:00,041 --> 00:46:02,521
Speaker 2: So move on. I love that, and move on exactly

825
00:46:02,561 --> 00:46:05,281
Speaker 2: because you know, if we keep dwelling on. I guess

826
00:46:05,321 --> 00:46:07,441
Speaker 2: that was you know, like even talking earlier about the

827
00:46:07,481 --> 00:46:11,401
Speaker 2: clink moving and evolving, like the stories of redemption have

828
00:46:11,481 --> 00:46:15,121
Speaker 2: been amazing. But now we've grown into this really beautiful,

829
00:46:15,361 --> 00:46:19,881
Speaker 2: big platform where we have such an immense you know

830
00:46:20,081 --> 00:46:23,201
Speaker 2: following in reference to our listeners, and I'm like, we've

831
00:46:23,201 --> 00:46:25,321
Speaker 2: got to give more back, you know, and how do

832
00:46:25,361 --> 00:46:27,761
Speaker 2: we do that? Well, it's growth and we've got to

833
00:46:28,161 --> 00:46:30,841
Speaker 2: take that into everyday living as well. So you know,

834
00:46:31,041 --> 00:46:33,361
Speaker 2: not only do we grow here and try and now

835
00:46:34,081 --> 00:46:37,721
Speaker 2: have as many guests as we can with success stories

836
00:46:37,761 --> 00:46:42,321
Speaker 2: to help others but life in general, if we've just

837
00:46:42,361 --> 00:46:45,601
Speaker 2: got to embrace where we're at and make the best

838
00:46:45,641 --> 00:46:45,921
Speaker 2: of it.

839
00:46:46,001 --> 00:46:50,561
Speaker 4: Definitely, definitely, you never know, so.

840
00:46:50,601 --> 00:46:52,841
Speaker 2: Thank you very much and you don't ever know, so

841
00:46:52,961 --> 00:46:55,201
Speaker 2: never give up. To everybody out there today, I just

842
00:46:55,201 --> 00:46:57,481
Speaker 2: want to say thank you very much once again to

843
00:46:57,521 --> 00:47:00,521
Speaker 2: all our new listeners, welcome and I hope you continue

844
00:47:00,521 --> 00:47:04,561
Speaker 2: to enjoy. Remember seventeen seasons we're into, so there's plenty

845
00:47:04,601 --> 00:47:07,321
Speaker 2: there to into, lots of great stories. Feel free to

846
00:47:07,361 --> 00:47:11,801
Speaker 2: go back through from season one. Look, it is something

847
00:47:11,841 --> 00:47:14,041
Speaker 2: that I'm very proud of in each of our guests

848
00:47:14,081 --> 00:47:17,201
Speaker 2: over the years. It's it's been an absolute honor. Sideway

849
00:47:17,321 --> 00:47:20,121
Speaker 2: surf for all clink Ink Apparel, be the best you

850
00:47:20,161 --> 00:47:22,281
Speaker 2: can be. In a massive shout out to pod Shape

851
00:47:22,801 --> 00:47:25,761
Speaker 2: for putting up with me every week and producing the

852
00:47:25,761 --> 00:47:30,201
Speaker 2: best true crime podcast in Australia. We are the OG

853
00:47:30,881 --> 00:47:34,961
Speaker 2: and what can I say, it's been our wonderful journey.

854
00:47:35,001 --> 00:47:37,961
Speaker 2: We're going to continue to bring great stories and enlighten

855
00:47:38,001 --> 00:47:40,841
Speaker 2: people's lives. Thank you so much, Jovan, Thank you Gray

856
00:47:42,281 --> 00:47:42,921
Speaker 2: for the record.

857
00:47:43,121 --> 00:47:46,241
Speaker 1: Don't try and make you out comfortable for the record.

858
00:47:46,361 --> 00:47:49,121
Speaker 1: You try and world and stuff for your fort a

859
00:47:49,201 --> 00:47:53,001
Speaker 1: record lab on me, going hard to work, record a

860
00:47:53,161 --> 00:47:55,521
Speaker 1: trying link, not trying to watch stuff for.

861
00:48:00,561 --> 00:48:01,401
Speaker 2: A ragged.

862
00:48:03,641 --> 00:48:05,521
Speaker 1: For a ragged photo.

863
00:48:05,601 --> 00:48:05,881
Speaker 2: Racken