WEBVTT - Alan Jones on trial: What we've learned so far

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<v Speaker 1>Are you feeling nervous? We are you going to keep walking?

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<v Speaker 1>Please talk about a four months siment.

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<v Speaker 2>Ellen Jones is used to attracting attention, but not like this.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think you'll be here for every day of

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<v Speaker 1>the trial?

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<v Speaker 2>At eighty five of the once powerful shock jock who

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<v Speaker 2>for decades acted as judge, drury and executioner in the

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<v Speaker 2>court of public opinion is now the one on trial.

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<v Speaker 2>Jones is accused of historical offenses involving the indecent assault

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<v Speaker 2>and sexual touching of teenagers and young men, claims he

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<v Speaker 2>has always denied it.

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<v Speaker 1>I have never indecently assaulted these people.

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<v Speaker 2>The law assumes that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not guilty, and I am not guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>Now a judge will decide. Was the trial slated to

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<v Speaker 2>run over the next four months. I'm Daniel James, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're listening to seven AM today National Affairs editor at

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<v Speaker 2>ten years Hugh Remington on how the first few days

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<v Speaker 2>of the Ellen Jones trial played out in the court

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<v Speaker 2>and what's still the cane. It's Thursday, August sixth and

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<v Speaker 2>a warning, while we try not to get two graphic,

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<v Speaker 2>the following story does cover sexual assault. Take care listening

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<v Speaker 2>you Thanks so much for joining us. Alan Jones's trial

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<v Speaker 2>began this week in Sydney. He's facing charges of indecent

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<v Speaker 2>assault and sexual touching. You've been there in court every

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<v Speaker 2>day thus far. Can you describe the scenes, particularly on

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<v Speaker 2>that very first day as Jones arrived.

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<v Speaker 1>So there were really two elements that were a bit

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<v Speaker 1>unusual about this on the opening day. One is the

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<v Speaker 1>mere fact of Jones's arrival. He's not your normal defendant

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<v Speaker 1>in a criminal trial as you might expect. He arrives

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<v Speaker 1>in a Chofford limousine. He has security. As he turns up,

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<v Speaker 1>he walks in somewhat gingerly.

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<v Speaker 2>Have anything more.

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<v Speaker 1>To say about how you plan to.

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<v Speaker 2>Do the family child room.

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<v Speaker 1>He's an eighty five year old man who's got knee problems.

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<v Speaker 1>He goes with the walking stick that he leans on

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<v Speaker 1>as he proceeds into the court, and of course there's

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<v Speaker 1>a forest of cameras and mics and everything as he

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<v Speaker 1>turns up. Meanwhile, something else was going on, and that

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<v Speaker 1>is that this is despite the seriousness of the charges

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<v Speaker 1>and the reputational stakes for Alan Jones, it is a

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<v Speaker 1>relatively low order criminal matter. It is dealt with in

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<v Speaker 1>the local court. It's not in the higher courts. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a judge alone trial, no jury. There is a jail

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<v Speaker 1>option for the judge in this case, but at the

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<v Speaker 1>lower order for a summary offense. And so it's been

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<v Speaker 1>assigned to a relatively small court for a court three

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<v Speaker 1>point one on the third floor of the Downing Center

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<v Speaker 1>in Sydney, and they're plainly not enough seats for all

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<v Speaker 1>the interests that exists. And so there are a variety

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<v Speaker 1>of people who were just curious about Giones, curious about

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<v Speaker 1>the case, and or might have felt as if they

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<v Speaker 1>had some stake or interest in him, and they were

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<v Speaker 1>trying to queue up to get into the court. There

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<v Speaker 1>was never going to be enough room for them. They

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<v Speaker 1>weren't allowed to get into the court, so they were

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<v Speaker 1>quickly turfed out. So all of this made it more

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<v Speaker 1>of a spectacle than your average Downing Street Center event, not.

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<v Speaker 2>Your average coast all. So hadd the prosecution open its case?

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<v Speaker 2>What did they say about the allegations they're seeking to

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<v Speaker 2>prove against Jones.

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<v Speaker 1>So there are twenty two charges, and it should be

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<v Speaker 1>said that twenty of those charges are what's called technically

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<v Speaker 1>assault with an act of indecency in short form, indecent assault.

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<v Speaker 1>The other two charges are called sexual touching without consent.

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<v Speaker 1>Now in practice they are the same offense. They were

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<v Speaker 1>renamed a couple of years ago. There are six complainants

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<v Speaker 1>now they range from two people who had one brief

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<v Speaker 1>encounter with them didn't know it, and to other people

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<v Speaker 1>who came into his orbit. So the main accuser. So

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<v Speaker 1>nine of the twenty two charges relate to a person

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<v Speaker 1>who's called complainant Jay, and this is a person who's

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<v Speaker 1>been giving evidence. Initially complained that Jay first came into

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<v Speaker 1>jones orbit when he was twelve years old and met

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<v Speaker 1>him frequently from the age of about fourteen or fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>through sport, and Jones took an interest in him. He

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<v Speaker 1>was from a very poor background at a solo mum,

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<v Speaker 1>and he had a number of siblings and that had

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<v Speaker 1>no money, and Jones was willing to support him for

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<v Speaker 1>his sporting career by giving him money and later from

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<v Speaker 1>giving him a phone and giving him a car. So

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution case was that he was subjected to a

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<v Speaker 1>series of indecent acts happening at Jones' Sydney apartment there

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<v Speaker 1>just by the Sydney Opera House, but also in the

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<v Speaker 1>worst cases that are being alleged at his farmer's state

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<v Speaker 1>down on the Southern Highlands, at a place called Fitzroy Falls.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's him, and then there are others who also

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<v Speaker 1>had these alleged defenses of a somewhat lower order, but

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<v Speaker 1>certainly that meet the threshold of crime if they were

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<v Speaker 1>to be found by the courts to have been proven.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of the testimony we've been hearing from Witness j

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<v Speaker 2>has been very detailed and very graphic in court and

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<v Speaker 2>pretty tough listening. And I'm sure viewing from wind the

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<v Speaker 2>court itself, what can you tell us about some of

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<v Speaker 2>the claims that Witness JA has made thus far?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the most egregious, if you like, claims that Alan

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<v Speaker 1>Jones came to This is the allegation Alan Jones came

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<v Speaker 1>to say to him that he loved him, planted kisses

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<v Speaker 1>on him, would pull him in vigorously for hugs. He

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<v Speaker 1>invited him to his property in the Southern Highlands on

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<v Speaker 1>the way down. So it's alleged this young man was

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<v Speaker 1>driving he just got his driving license, so he was

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<v Speaker 1>driving Alan Jones Mercedes Benz and during the course of

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<v Speaker 1>this planet Jay says that he grabbed him by the penis,

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<v Speaker 1>and then once they got inside the house itself, he

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<v Speaker 1>says that Alan Jones told him to go and have

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<v Speaker 1>a shower and put on a robe and nothing else,

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<v Speaker 1>and complained that Jay portrays himself as being a young

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<v Speaker 1>man who felt trapped. He'd never had, he said, financial

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<v Speaker 1>support in his life. Alan Jones was giving him financial support.

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<v Speaker 1>He feared that if he made anything of this that

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<v Speaker 1>he would lose that financial support. He'd been given a car,

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<v Speaker 1>for example. He was afraid he was going to lose

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<v Speaker 1>the car. And he felt that He said he was

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<v Speaker 1>a heterosexual young man, he had a girlfriend, he wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>interested in men. He felt that this was something he

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<v Speaker 1>just had to deal with with Alan Jones. But on

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<v Speaker 1>that particular night in the Southern Highlands, it went beyond

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<v Speaker 1>grabbing and touching into an assault, which is very excruciating

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<v Speaker 1>to sort of detail inside a courtroom, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>about to repeat it, but it involved naked this bondying

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<v Speaker 1>penises and so on, and it was alleged that he

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<v Speaker 1>went back to his girlfriend, and his girlfriend later said

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<v Speaker 1>he came back from that trip looking like he had

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<v Speaker 1>seen a ghost, and that he was withdrawn and emotionless

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<v Speaker 1>after that trip, but he didn't tell his girlfriend or

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<v Speaker 1>anyone else for some time. So that is that's the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence in chief from complainant Jay.

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<v Speaker 2>As you've been at winning, you the court heard a

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<v Speaker 2>great deal about the money Jones gave witness Jay. How

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<v Speaker 2>important is that financial relationship to Jay's account of what happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's important to both the prosecution and the defense.

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<v Speaker 1>So the prosecution allegation, or at least his statement to police,

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<v Speaker 1>was that he was being grouped, and the prosecution says

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<v Speaker 1>there was a pattern of behavior by Jones of financial support.

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<v Speaker 1>So that forms part of the prosecution kind of setting

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<v Speaker 1>of the scene as to how Jones operated. But in

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<v Speaker 1>the opening address, jones lawyer Gabrielle Bisher sc said that

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<v Speaker 1>what you're going to see of Alan Jones is nothing

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<v Speaker 1>more than the behavior of a man who was quote,

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<v Speaker 1>unfailingly generous. So these are the two Joneses that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the judges got to decide between. Is this a man

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<v Speaker 1>who's just unfailingly generous, who gives money to young poor people,

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<v Speaker 1>people on struggle Street. You know, the joke he used

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<v Speaker 1>to say about complaining Jay was that he did just

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<v Speaker 1>live on Struggle Street. He lived on number one Struggle Street,

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<v Speaker 1>and so that's why he was giving him financial support.

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<v Speaker 1>Another view of that was that there was an ulterior

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<v Speaker 1>motive to the money, and this is stuff that lies

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<v Speaker 1>at the heart of the contestation that the Joneses got

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<v Speaker 1>to sort out.

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<v Speaker 2>So he Jones's lawyers have now begun their cross exendining

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<v Speaker 2>of witness Jay what parts of his account of a testing.

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<v Speaker 1>So they have indicated that and this would be normal

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<v Speaker 1>in any defended criminal case. Is where you've got the

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<v Speaker 1>key witnesses where there are not or the key complainants,

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<v Speaker 1>if you like, the alleged victims, and there are not

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<v Speaker 1>witnesses to events that took place in rooms where there

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<v Speaker 1>was no one else. It becomes a case of who

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<v Speaker 1>do you believe? And so it is perfectly normal for

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<v Speaker 1>them to challenge the credibility of this alleged victim complainant Jay.

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<v Speaker 1>They've said that's what they're setting out to do. And

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<v Speaker 1>in their opening address they said they had received a

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<v Speaker 1>bundle of dynamite. Was, in the words of Gabrielle Basher,

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<v Speaker 1>the Council for Alan Jones, a bundle of dynamite that

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<v Speaker 1>would blow up the credibility of complained j Now, this

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<v Speaker 1>bundle of dynamite has been the subject of the cross

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<v Speaker 1>examination that happened on Wednesday, and so the full day,

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<v Speaker 1>effectively on Wednesday, was involved in the defense making the

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<v Speaker 1>case that complainert Jay was not credible. And we can't

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<v Speaker 1>say anything about that because the prosecution has already raised

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<v Speaker 1>an objection signaled an objection and they want that evidence

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<v Speaker 1>in that line of argument to be rendered inadmissible. The

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<v Speaker 1>judge says that he will reserve his decision on the

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<v Speaker 1>relevance and the inadvisibility, but he will hear it. But

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<v Speaker 1>in the meantime it's under a non publication order.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what do we know about Jones's defense? His

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<v Speaker 2>defense team claims he's facing trial by media and the Jones' rivals,

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<v Speaker 2>both within the media and across society and political circles,

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<v Speaker 2>are out there to destroy him. What have we learned

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<v Speaker 2>about the defense he will be running over the coming months,

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<v Speaker 2>because this thing will take months, won't it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we don't know the full extent of the defense

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<v Speaker 1>arguments and the way that that will play out, but

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<v Speaker 1>we do know from their opening that they are going

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<v Speaker 1>to make the that Alan Jones, of course, a devisive

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<v Speaker 1>figure in many ways, is the subject of rivalry. Rivalry

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<v Speaker 1>by the nine newspapers who launched the investigation that then

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<v Speaker 1>drew these complainants, these witnesses, Some of them came out

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<v Speaker 1>after it was being reported in the nine newspapers. So

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<v Speaker 1>there's a claim there that there was a media rivalry

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<v Speaker 1>that was involved. Part of that involves Peter fitz Simons.

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<v Speaker 1>So peterfitit Simons is a very well known columnist for

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<v Speaker 1>the Sittingmore and Herald, chiefly on sports, but he range

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<v Speaker 1>with feeling why and he's written a whole number of

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<v Speaker 1>best selling books and.

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<v Speaker 2>A formal ollaby that was coached by Jones at one.

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<v Speaker 1>Point, coached and dropped by Alan Jones. So we'll see

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<v Speaker 1>whether that will be whether he's you know, he burns

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<v Speaker 1>with fury over that to the extent I'm not going

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<v Speaker 1>to get ahead of where there arguments on that are.

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<v Speaker 1>So part of the claim is that at least one

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<v Speaker 1>of these complainants had a connection with Peter fitz Simons

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<v Speaker 1>and then somehow or other that wound up being part

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<v Speaker 1>although that the person who actually carried the stories at

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<v Speaker 1>the Sinning Morning Herald was Kate McClement, the investigation's reporter

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<v Speaker 1>invescular Reporter. The other arch rival, so called was Ray

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<v Speaker 1>Hadley at TGB, So one of the alleged victims worked

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<v Speaker 1>at TWOGB, and the case being made by the defense,

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<v Speaker 1>at least outlined in their opening statement is that this

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<v Speaker 1>gentleman went on to work for Ray Hadley, and so

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<v Speaker 1>Ray Hadley was involved, and that Ray Hadley was an

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<v Speaker 1>arch rival of Alan Jones. Gabriel Basheer, the lead counsel

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<v Speaker 1>for Alan Jones, says that the whole case is a

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<v Speaker 1>matter of rivalry, treachery, opportunism, hatred and desperation. She chucked

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<v Speaker 1>in double dealing as well for good measure, so she

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't have to absolutely make the case because of course

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<v Speaker 1>the burdener proof is on the prosecution, but she has

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<v Speaker 1>set out that she intends to make the case that

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<v Speaker 1>there are people there who, for various reasons, were motivated

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<v Speaker 1>to tell untruths about Allan Jones, and therefore they can't

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<v Speaker 1>be believed. The Crown in this case has an interesting challenge,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is because, to quote the great musical Hamilton,

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<v Speaker 1>you know no one was in the room where it happened.

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<v Speaker 1>They're relying on a process called tendency evidence, where it

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<v Speaker 1>may not be clear beyond reasonable doubt that a single

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<v Speaker 1>incident happened, but if there is a pattern of behavior

0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.320
<v Speaker 1>that's consistently happening, and a range of people who have

0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:43.719
<v Speaker 1>no connections with each other report similar behaviors, the criminal behaviors,

0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.480
<v Speaker 1>then the court is entitled to conclude that the person

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.560
<v Speaker 1>has a tendency to behave in a particular way that

0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:57.280
<v Speaker 1>is unlawful, so therefore, taken as a whole, they can

0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:01.200
<v Speaker 1>be believed. And so this is particular approach in a

0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 1>case like this, and the tendency elements of it will

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:05.760
<v Speaker 1>be challenged by the defense as well.

0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 2>Well. Thank you so much for speaking with us today here.

0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.160
<v Speaker 2>I know it must be grilling after a daylight today,

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.120
<v Speaker 2>but once again thanks for coming on the show.

0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:16.400
<v Speaker 1>Great to talk to you.

0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Also in the news, Australian authorities are investigating what could

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.560
<v Speaker 2>be the country's first far left terrorist attack after a

0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:35.040
<v Speaker 2>group allegedly firebombed the Melbourne defense manufacturer and threatened further attacks.

0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Lover of Technologies was allegedly targeted for its production of

0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.400
<v Speaker 2>parts for F thirty five fighter jets. Are links to

0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Israel's defense supply chain. Police say the group released a

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<v Speaker 2>video that claimed responsibility for the attack, threatened workers and

0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.720
<v Speaker 2>providing instructions for carrying out similar fire bombings. Australian security

0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.680
<v Speaker 2>agencies say there has been a rise in arson, vandalism

0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 2>and violent protest by anti Israel activists targeting defense company,

0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 2>but this is the first time such an attack has

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<v Speaker 2>been investigated as terrorism. And A four time section of

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<v Speaker 2>a SpaceX rocket has crashed into the Moon at eight

0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.800
<v Speaker 2>thousand kilometers an hour, prompting concerns that it could be

0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 2>a precedent for the disposal of space drunk. The upper

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.400
<v Speaker 2>stage was left drifting in space after launching two private

0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.720
<v Speaker 2>lunar landers from Florida in January last year. Scientists warned

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<v Speaker 2>that the impact could permanently alter and contaminate part of

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<v Speaker 2>the lunar surface, and say it highlights the lack of

0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:34.720
<v Speaker 2>rules governing space junk around the Moon's Uncontrolled collisions expected

0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.080
<v Speaker 2>to become more common. I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 2>to seven AM. We'll be back tomorrow.