WEBVTT - Adele Ferguson on why children aren’t safe at childcare centres 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.520 Just a warning before we get started. This episode discusses 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:08.640 child sexual abuse. Please take care while listening. Are children 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:09.720 safe at childcare? 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.480 I believe right now they're not safe. 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:14.600 That's a huge statement. 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:15.360 It is. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:20.079 This sector is in crisis and that's why the governments 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:24.320 really have to act urgently, because children aren't safe. 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.880 Adele Ferguson is an investigative journalist at the ABC. She 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.120 spent nine months reporting on the crisis unfolding in Australia's 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:37.159 childcare system. So once she heard last week that a 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.080 childcare worker in Victoria was charged with more than seventy 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.440 offenses relating to sexual abuse of children. She says the 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.880 allegations were disgusting but not surprising. 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:51.640 When it comes to sexual misconduct and offenses. At least 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:55.800 one a day are reported in Victoria, WA and New 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.960 South Wales. We don't know how many across Australia because Queensland, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:04.680 Northern Territory in South Australia don't have a reportable conduct scheme. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.000 And what we do know is there's a lot of underreporting. 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.600 Now twelve hundred children, some as young as five months old, 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.959 are being tested for sexually transmitted diseases and the government 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.120 is scrambling to stop something like this from happening again. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:31.560 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.520 four Corners reporter Adele Ferguson on the dangers in an 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.960 industry driven by profit. A National Children's Commissioner Ann Hollands 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.160 on what needs to be done to protect children in care. 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:55.280 It's Monday, July seven. Good evening. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.520 We begin with one of the most distressing child sex 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.720 abuse investigations in Victoria's history. 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.480 Hundreds of children are tonight the waiting urgent. Adell thank 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.640 you for speaking with me. Can you just lay out 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.200 for us the allegations that have emerged in the last 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.120 few days about sexual abuse in Victorian childcare centers. 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:14.840 Yeah. 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:18.240 So it was a twenty six year old called Joshua 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.880 Brown who was arrested and charged with seventy counts of 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:28.000 sexual abuse of children. Eight children between the ages of 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.760 five months and two years, so very young. 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.360 Police have records of the man working at twenty different 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.880 childcare centers between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty five, most 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.079 of them in Melbourne's West. The state government, how is 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:42.480 it that. 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.120 That could happen? What safeguards are in place to stop 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.359 perpetrators working in childcare centers. 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.280 They are supposed to be working with children's checks, but 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.320 they're deeply flawed. So each state is different. In Queensland 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:58.440 you have the blue card and other states that's the 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.600 working with children and what happens is you have to 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.079 have been charged with a serious offense to lose you 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.079 working with children check, so you might be under the 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.000 radar and so you have a working with Children's check, 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:18.160 which is what happened to the gentleman in Victoria. And 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.200 in terms of working with children checks, if you're in act, 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.640 for example, and you've been investigated and you've been suspended 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.480 from a childcare center, you can just hop to another 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.840 state and get a working with children check. Privacy protects 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.720 these people because the states don't share things. And that's 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.120 why there's been caused to have a national register for 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.280 ten years and it hasn't happened yet. 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:43.880 The man who was alleged to have molested children in 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.960 his care worked across several centers. On the surface, it's 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.400 hard to understand how he wasn't caught by our colleague. Sooner, 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.800 can you tell me what you're reporting is uncovered about 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:57.720 why it is that childcare workers may not report abuse 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:58.320 if they see it. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.120 Yeah, there's a number of reasons. One, how do these 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.280 people get away with it? You know, in the case 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.160 of Ashley Griffith who's now in Jay Off the Life, 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.960 he worked across many centers and it went under the 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.840 radar anything. How does that happen when this guy had 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.000 tripods and was filming in the childcare center. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:24.200 One of Australia's worst ever pedophiles has been sentenced to 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.520 life in prison without the possibility of parole for twenty 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:31.719 seven years after confessing to raping and abusing scores of 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.360 girls in childcare centers across Australia and overseas. 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.239 One of the reasons is lack of supervision. There aren't 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.680 enough staff. There's a lot of gaming of the system 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.320 when it comes to staff to child ratios. But in 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:50.640 terms of the reporting of it, it's mandatory to report. 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.120 But there's two reasons why it often doesn't happen. One, 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:59.400 a lot of educators don't understand child protection policies. They 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:03.080 don't understand and the mandatory reporting that's required, so they. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:03.640 Don't do it. 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.720 And the other reason is they're too scared sometimes if 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.760 they report anything they get retribution or they become a 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.599 pririe because they're dobbing in a workmate. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:15.839 And so there's those two. 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.000 Things that they're not protected when they do the mandatory 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.720 that they should, but they're not protected. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:22.960 From the system when they do. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.680 Your Four Corners investigation into the childcare sector revealed that 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.240 even the dodgy ist providers who aren't meeting basic standards 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.280 are still allowed to operate. Can you explain how that works? 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:39.960 Yeah, that's exactly right. 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:40.320 You know. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.000 One of the problems is there's been this. 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:50.280 Explosion in for profit operators, private equity listed companies, overseas operators, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:54.279 and they're putting profit before children, and because there's such 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.400 a demand for childcare centers, the regulators seem to not 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:03.120 have the appetite to go after them. So when educators 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.919 do something wrong, in many cases, when you're looking at 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.560 the regulatory documents or you're talking to parents, not a 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.280 lot seems to happen. So, you know, when the Minister 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:17.120 for Education is saying we're going to beef up penalties 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:18.160 because they're not. 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:20.800 High enough, I'm thinking to myself. 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.159 Yeah, it's a good idea, but the regulators aren't even 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:27.480 using the penalties that they have. So there's a problem, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.200 and I think one of the reasons for that is 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.719 if they go in hard and shut a center down, 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:37.440 they're worried what are the implications for parents? Where do 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:38.640 the parents put the children. 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.560 There's been a lot of focus by the federal government 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:45.840 on expanding access to childcare. Within that, what focus has 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:46.839 there been on safety? 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.120 Not a lot, as we can clearly see. It's only 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:55.880 since this terrible incident happened in Victoria that governments are 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.159 coming out saying we've got to do more. Jason Clair 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:03.000 was on seventh thirty saying we haven't done enough and 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:04.200 we've got to move faster. 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.480 We're taking action, but not enough action has happened, and 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:09.279 not fast enough. 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:10.440 All right, let's talk about that. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:13.200 Safety has not been on the agenda. It's all been 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:14.640 about affordability. 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.880 The honest answer to you is that this job will 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.880 never be done, that there will always be bad people 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.480 that try and break through the net. That doesn't mean 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.520 that you do nothing, though. That means that we've got 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:27.760 to do everything that we possibly can to make sure 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.680 that our children are safe. That's why people are talking 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:36.160 now about CCTV or about an educator register about improving 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.800 Working with Children checks. None of that is a silver bullet. 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.800 None of that is going to guarantee every child is safe. 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:45.720 But all of it are the sort of things that 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.200 are necessary if we're fair income about doing it. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:52.880 What the government is saying is by September they will 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:57.160 have a working national Working with Children checks. There also 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.480 needs to be a national registration scheme for educators so 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.000 that we can track who they are, how often they've 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.240 moved around. We have that for age care, we have 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.400 it for teachers, we have it for medical practitioners. We 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.240 don't have it for child care workers. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.120 After the break, the National Children's Commissioner Ann Holands or 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:29.680 a national response that could protect the voiceless. And you 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.640 called for stronger regulation of the childcare sector. What would 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.880 that actually look like. What sort of things would change 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:37.800 to make sure that there is stronger regulation. 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:42.120 Well, first of all, I think we need independent oversight 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.320 and monitoring. What I'm unclear about is how independent the 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:52.160 current regulators are in the states and territories. Secondly, they 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:56.240 need to be properly resourced. So you know, we've heard 0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:00.720 allegations that they're not visiting centers very often. That's because 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.200 of a lack of funds. And then thirdly, they need 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.280 to have teeth to act. They need legislation that enables 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.920 them to take the actions that are necessary. So on 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.120 all three counts we seem to be lacking at the moment. 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.720 Another thing that has been floated at the moment is 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:22.920 that all child care centers should have CCTV surveillance within them. 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:24.120 What do you think about that. 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.319 Well, I think the recommendation came out of the New 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:32.040 South Wales review after the Four Corners episodes, and I 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.920 think that recommendation said that you'd only have CCTV for 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:40.079 the dodgy providers. Well, the dodgy providers shouldn't be operating, 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.880 so forget that, they should be out of the game. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.800 And I note that Good Start Early Learning, which is 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.600 the largest not for profit provider in the country, have 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:56.080 already announced that they're going to install CCTV everywhere, so 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.600 I think we take the lead from them. I think 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:00.720 it's good practice. 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.800 We've also heard a lot in the wake of these 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.679 allegations that our discussion has emerged about banning men from 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.120 working in childcare centers. Do you think that that's a 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:15.120 legitimate proposal policy that the sector could adopt or is 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:17.800 are the other factors that need to be taken to 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:18.440 an account. 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.280 Well, look, I think it's an overreaction, and I perhaps 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:26.920 understandable given how outraged we are across the country right now, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.959 but I don't support it. You know, I think there 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.360 are very good childcare workers of both men and women 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.360 in the sector who are doing an amazing job. And 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.720 I don't think gender is the issue here. When we 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:46.040 look at the reportable conduct issues that have emerged, there's 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:51.160 a lot that are from female childcare workers, a lot 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:56.320 of physical abuse, neglect issues. You know, there are problems 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:00.880 across the board. So I don't think we should be 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:05.480 focusing on male workers, especially when we're really short of workers. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.400 We need good workers of both gender. Kids need role 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:12.319 models of both gender. We just need better screening and 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:16.360 recruitment measures. We need better training of staff, all staff 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.360 in centers, from boardroom to the sand pit. Everyone needs 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.720 to know what to look for in terms of grooming 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:28.520 and risky behaviors. And we need that strongth regulatory scaffolding 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:29.839 that we've just discussed. 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.440 You said, National Cabinet must make child safety and well 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:35.960 being a key priority in the same way that women's 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.040 safety is a top priority. What would that actually look 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:40.520 like an well, you know. 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.800 That could be done with a stroke of a pen, Daniel. 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.360 There could be a decision made by the Prime Minister 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.720 that you know, we need to prioritize child safety and 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.199 well being and he get his state and territory colleagues 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.920 to agree to that. With women and women's safety, what 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:59.720 it looks like is that there are reports to National 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.560 cab it on reform actions that have been agreed on 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.920 and all the states and territories work together with the 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.520 Commonwealth to progress reforms. So everybody's at the table and 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.040 there is accountability at the top. And by the way, 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.960 we do that because we see women and women's safety 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.840 as a critical national issue. So it's a very good 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.760 thing that we're doing that. Currently, when you look at 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.600 the list of issues for National Cabinet and it's publicly available, 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.160 you won't see the word children anywhere on that list. 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:36.200 I think that's a very important missing piece in the 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.400 terms of accountability for action on these previous Royal commissions 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:45.760 and inquiry recommendations that now it's being admitted that we 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.520 were too slow to and act them. Why because there's 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.840 no accountability to do so. The other thing we need 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.920 is a cabinet Minister for children. Why do we have 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.120 cabinet ministers for women, We've had them for decades. It's 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.520 because it's an accountability mechanism. It provides national leadership and 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:08.320 coordination across the portfolios and keeps whimen's issues front of mind. 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:13.839 Who's doing that for children? No one. Another mechanism that 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.760 I've recommended in a report to Parliament last year, as 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.000 well as a Minister for children as well as national 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:27.400 cabinet oversight, is a Ministerial Council on Child Wellbeing. So 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:32.600 this would be a council of experts from different disciplines 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.960 that would provide advice to ministers about what needs to 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.040 be done. Again, we don't have any of that for children. 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.679 What does it say about our society and that we've 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.520 relegated the care of our oldest and our youngest to 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.160 systems driven by profit and which we see time and 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.559 time again. I write with abuse. 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.959 Well, you know, I spent a lot of time asking 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.880 myself why are children sidelined and often invisible when it 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.800 comes to policy? When you ask about that in terms 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:06.319 of children, well, they don't vote, for a start, they 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.240 don't have a voice and there is no accountability mechanisms 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.480 in place. What does it say about our society? Well, 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:19.320 I think it shows actually a gap between what people value. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:24.840 Ordinary citizens value, they value children, they value older people right, 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:28.480 and what politicians are spending their time thinking about. 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.480 And thank you so much for your time, Thanks Daniel. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.440 There is specialists help available for people who have experienced 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:43.160 sexual abuse. Kids Helpline is a free confidential counseling service 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.840 for young people aged from five to twenty five. You 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.800 can reach them on one eight hundred five five one 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.600 eight hundred. They're available twenty four hours, seven days a week, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.680 or you can call one eight hundred Respect, a counseling 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:00.560 service which also supports people affected by sexual assault. They're 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:15.160 also available twenty four to seven. Also in the news, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.280 a thirty four year old Sydney man has been arrested 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.280 and charged after the doors of a Melbourne synagogue were 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.560 set on fire on Friday night. The man is alleged 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.640 to have poured flammable liquid on the door of the 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:31.080 East Melbourne Hebrew Congregation Synagogue and set it alight while 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:35.600 people were inside taking part in Shabbats. Home Affairs Minister 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.680 Tony Burke visited the synagogue over the weekend and says 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:44.080 the arson attack was an attack on Australia and Elon 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.600 Musk has announced he has formed a new political party 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:50.440 called the America Party. Musk has been floating the idea 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.880 of a rival political party since exiting the Trump administration 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.720 and becoming an outspoken critic of Trump's signature legislation known 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.720 as the One Big Beautiful Bill. That bill passed both 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.280 chambers of Congress last week, but has been criticized across 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:09.040 the political spectrum. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM. 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:09.880 Thanks for listening.