Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never
Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Veronica Gory,
Speaker 1: an Indigenous woman who joined the police to make a difference,
Speaker 1: but found she was fighting an organization embedded with racism
Speaker 1: and discrimination. Veronica, welcome back, Thank you. Okay, I'm from
Speaker 1: the notes out on this one. Where what are we
Speaker 1: going to yarn about? And where's this going to take us?
Speaker 2: So I think, prior to putting the headphones on or
Speaker 2: getting being recorded, we're talking about. What were we talking about.
Speaker 1: We were talking about cases that don't get the attention
Speaker 1: and the media, the media, the lack of interest.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I think I brought it up earlier,
Speaker 2: when victims black fellows don't make good victims to police
Speaker 2: because they're so used to locking us up. And so
Speaker 2: when we do report matters, on the off chance that
Speaker 2: we do report matters, and for example, a young Abrish
Speaker 2: woman in Western Australia walked into a police station and
Speaker 2: wanted to take a domestic violence order out on her partner. Brave,
Speaker 2: very brave, because we don't turn to police for help.
Speaker 2: But she'd obviously have been subjected to so much that
Speaker 2: she had to like the last resort and she died
Speaker 2: in custody. They locked her up and she ended up
Speaker 2: dying custody, killed in custody. Yeah, so when we have
Speaker 2: you just look at the media. They play a big
Speaker 2: part in this as well. They don't report matters whereby
Speaker 2: abriginal people or the victims, or you don't see mainstream
Speaker 2: media about the abriaginal dressing custodies.
Speaker 1: You see it on an I t V, SBS or
Speaker 1: the A B C. Where you're quite often preaching to
Speaker 1: the converted. But I know when I was in the
Speaker 1: cops and the lack of interest in that if I
Speaker 1: was investigating a murder with an Indigenous person in it
Speaker 1: from from the media because it's it doesn't sell papers
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I see it now that I'm in
Speaker 1: the media. It's hard to get people interested in stories.
Speaker 1: And I wonder what that's about. I often think, is
Speaker 1: it because well, that's happened to an Indigenous person, It's
Speaker 1: not going to happen to us because we're white. What
Speaker 1: do you why do you think there's a lack of
Speaker 1: interest from the from the media in indigenous matters like that.
Speaker 2: I just think they don't give a fuck a about
Speaker 2: the traditional owners of the country that they're you know
Speaker 2: of this country and the stolen lands that they're now
Speaker 2: living on. Don't give a fuck about us. So, you know,
Speaker 2: they're still you know, like we've intergenerational trauma. They're still
Speaker 2: carrying the the colonizers.
Speaker 1: You know, we're carrying the attitude. You guys are carrying
Speaker 1: the trauma. We're carrying the attitude.
Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying, Yeah, they don't care about us,
Speaker 2: like our lives don't matter. You know, it's just one
Speaker 2: less black beatlet to deal with in this country. You know,
Speaker 2: there's where's the outrage?
Speaker 1: How can that be changed?
Speaker 2: I don't I don't have all the answers. I think
Speaker 2: with the families, I can say, keep pressing a lot
Speaker 2: with the media, keep their stories, keep the you know,
Speaker 2: their lives, their lives do matter. Your family members matter,
Speaker 2: Your grief matters. And that's the thing with abishinal families.
Speaker 2: Almost every Abershall family has been affected by a deaf
Speaker 2: and custody and we're having death and custodies all over
Speaker 2: this country. And as a community, we grieve for the families,
Speaker 2: and we may not have met them, we grieve, we
Speaker 2: cry with this family. And then what happens with that
Speaker 2: family They bury their loved one, and then the coronial
Speaker 2: inquest begins and then the family is subjected to visions
Speaker 2: of the very last moments they loved one was a lower,
Speaker 2: the last breath they loved one took. And then never
Speaker 2: usually successful outcomes, which is what I mentioned before Abershare people,
Speaker 2: we never usually have happy endings, which and that's what
Speaker 2: I meant by that. And then whilst we go with
Speaker 2: that family we're all hearing about it through our networks,
Speaker 2: which is like cream MA, NATV, not mainstream media. There'll
Speaker 2: be another different custody. So it's like as Aboriginal people
Speaker 2: were always grieving and it's every day we're fighting the system,
Speaker 2: and the justice system is set up to harm our people,
Speaker 2: my people. You know, if they don't kill us, they're
Speaker 2: locking us up, putting his way out aside, out of mind,
Speaker 2: you know. And you talk about Northern Territory again, you've
Speaker 2: got people getting Lemphy sentences up there for unlicensed driving
Speaker 2: like fuck may like you know, like if a non
Speaker 2: Indigenous person commits what is deemed to be you know,
Speaker 2: a serious crime, an indictable offense, whereby it's they've harmed
Speaker 2: a person, they're getting less less and like as a
Speaker 2: black father, it's like where we've been made examples of.
Speaker 2: It's like don't drive unlicensed you're going and you know what,
Speaker 2: it's just.
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 1: If I play the devil's advocate here and say, well,
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you do the crime, you
Speaker 1: should do that, do the time.
Speaker 3: Well here's who's crime is it?
Speaker 2: So it's white man's crime.
Speaker 1: Okay, so then it's not our crime. Okay, So then
Speaker 1: you're breaking it and breaking it down to that. I
Speaker 1: know I've had conversations with people saying that when kids
Speaker 1: are young kids and your talk Northern Territory and they're
Speaker 1: being locked up from an early age, it's virtually their
Speaker 1: their direction in life has been stamped by that by
Speaker 1: that direction in that they've got such a history, criminal
Speaker 1: history by the time they're an adult. If they commit
Speaker 1: an offense going inside, what.
Speaker 2: Hope do they have as an adult? You know, they
Speaker 2: carry that criminal history, white man's criminal history into the adulthood.
Speaker 2: What chance of getting a job and housing? And do
Speaker 2: they have they have nothing?
Speaker 1: Do you see a better way of are going off track?
Speaker 1: A better way of dealing with I talk here Indigenous kids.
Speaker 2: That's a yeah, yeah, stop locking them mart and giving
Speaker 2: back to the families. These kids belong at home, not
Speaker 2: in cages. There's another thing I wanted to talk about.
Speaker 2: When it's gone, no, let's ask the next question. It
Speaker 2: might come back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I haven't got a question.
Speaker 2: Okay, now, oh Devil's advocate.
Speaker 1: No, I'm saying that people might say, well, if they're
Speaker 1: committing crimes. Yeah, isn't the answer to lock them up?
Speaker 1: And I'm saying that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So as an abolitionist, I'm moving away from the
Speaker 2: language of, you know, the justice system and the very
Speaker 2: white justice system, and so crimes, white crime, okay, because
Speaker 2: you've got to remember policing. The first police in this
Speaker 2: country were white convicts. Yeah, so it comes from a
Speaker 2: criminal aspect anyway, Well, the white man's criminal aspect. To colonization,
Speaker 2: we had no police here. There was no need for police.
Speaker 2: We had our own ways of dealing with matters, which
Speaker 2: we still do today.
Speaker 1: Give us an example of that. It's something that people
Speaker 1: have understand.
Speaker 2: So, for example, if there's conflict in the family or
Speaker 2: in the community, the first people we call is our
Speaker 2: family members, and we sort it out that way through communication,
Speaker 2: sitting down and having yarns sorting it out. We don't
Speaker 2: call cops because the loclihood of cops sort it out
Speaker 2: is very minimal. But also cops turn up after the
Speaker 2: harm is done. Anyway, what is the point of their presence.
Speaker 2: It's already got that the harm's being done, We've already
Speaker 2: sorted it out. I want to go back to when
Speaker 2: I was a police officer. I went to a again
Speaker 2: sorry trigger warning a suicide aberginal family and the way
Speaker 2: we grieve. The neighbors called, I just come from the
Speaker 2: job with the CVIL side and as we're leaving, another
Speaker 2: job come through the radio and it was CO two
Speaker 2: or any unit Code two light and sirens. Quite urgent
Speaker 2: to attend the same address because there was a there
Speaker 2: was an altercation of people being loud and the disturbances
Speaker 2: and all this stuff and fighting going on, and I
Speaker 2: had to get on the radio and say stand down
Speaker 2: because that's their grieving. Even when it's grieving, it's perceived
Speaker 2: to be a crime, white.
Speaker 1: Crime because it's loud, and.
Speaker 2: That's the way we grieve. That's the way we grieve.
Speaker 1: Okay, yep, Little little things like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like those things weren't taught in the academy.
Speaker 2: Another thing that wasn't taught in the academy academy when
Speaker 2: I was there was that, And which I know they're
Speaker 2: doing right now is they're separating female identifying recruits from
Speaker 2: the male identifying recruits, and they're telling the females what
Speaker 2: to expect when they're out there. You're going to be
Speaker 2: preyed upon by the males.
Speaker 1: As in the male cops.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yep, yes.
Speaker 1: Did you experience that? Yes? In what form? And how
Speaker 1: did you deal with it?
Speaker 2: So I went to a party expecting to have a
Speaker 2: good time and I was sexually assaulted and then stalked
Speaker 2: afterwards for that very same officer.
Speaker 1: And in terms of the sexual assault, did you complain
Speaker 1: or what was it?
Speaker 2: I knew. I knew from being on the inside and
Speaker 2: being a black collar, the complaint wouldn't have went anywhere.
Speaker 1: No one step in, no one.
Speaker 2: Yeah. My partner at the time dragged me away because
Speaker 2: I feed for my safety that that night. Yeah, she
Speaker 2: thought I was going to be gang raped, which is
Speaker 2: quite common, which people I know, you kin'd of go
Speaker 2: on your air. No, No, I'm group sex, yeah, gang rape.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here and thinking.
Speaker 2: I'm bringing it all out. I've got no filters.
Speaker 1: So the whole thing on here on the podcast I
Speaker 1: Catch Killers. We want to hear your side of things.
Speaker 1: Why I'm looking pensive there, I'm thinking, fuck, if I
Speaker 1: got a hint of that, I would knock the person out.
Speaker 1: If there was a cop doing that to a female
Speaker 1: police officer, I can't believe. I'm shocked that people didn't
Speaker 1: stand up or.
Speaker 2: Yeah, only one person stood up for me, and that
Speaker 2: was my partner, and he was trying to convince me
Speaker 2: to put in a complaint, but I was too scared.
Speaker 2: And then, and that's another thing. When I say I
Speaker 2: was complicit, it means I did a lot of the
Speaker 2: stuff that other cops did. I caused harm, I arrested people.
Speaker 2: I had the highest restaurant in the district, and I
Speaker 2: had to do that. I had to work ten times
Speaker 2: harder than the white males that were in my squad.
Speaker 1: What was driving you to do that?
Speaker 2: I had to prove to them that I was just
Speaker 2: a school if not better than them. I owned my
Speaker 2: spot in this squad shamingly like shame. You know, I
Speaker 2: regret it now, Like if I go back to Queen's
Speaker 2: Lane and apologize every person I've ever arrested, or every
Speaker 2: person's that was loaded up because they gave him attitude,
Speaker 2: you know, cops.
Speaker 1: Loaded what and we're talking here?
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, here we go, please talk. Sorry. Trying to
Speaker 2: move away from but I keep coming back to it.
Speaker 2: So loading up if you're deemed to be a smart ass,
Speaker 2: and someone like black fellows, who we know are rites,
Speaker 2: when when cops pull you over as a black fellow.
Speaker 2: When they say, oh, we're just pulled over to do
Speaker 2: a random breath test. Random, it's not random. We know
Speaker 2: why we're getting pulled over because we're black and we're
Speaker 2: different to them. But what were we talking about just before?
Speaker 1: You were talking about loading someone up on which.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if we're deemed it as young kids, Aboriginal people,
Speaker 2: we've been due to twelve Aboriginal legal services. They give out,
Speaker 2: you know, little cards. Know you're right. So even as
Speaker 2: a ten year old kid, I knew my rights. If
Speaker 2: pulled over or intercept it'll stop by police. So we
Speaker 2: know our rights. We know what how much information you
Speaker 2: were required to give to police, and know more well
Speaker 2: you deemed to be a smart ass. And even as
Speaker 2: an adult they or a child, they'll load you up,
Speaker 2: obstruct police, public nuisance.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they load you up.
Speaker 2: With charges and enter and therefore you're entered into the
Speaker 2: justice system which is also racist.
Speaker 1: And that that that was your experience, and you were
Speaker 1: saying that you were part part of it when you're
Speaker 1: in there, Yeah, I was complicit in that. How does
Speaker 1: that make you feel? There?
Speaker 2: Ship very shut, you know, very very short it at that.
Speaker 1: But it's so you're talking about like a pretty horrible
Speaker 1: culture in the police. And I can sit here and
Speaker 1: say I'm a policeman too, and I know there was
Speaker 1: good parts and bad parts about the culture of police.
Speaker 2: What parts did you have?
Speaker 3: I had? Well, piss ups.
Speaker 1: No, I went through that stage and it nearly killed me.
Speaker 1: And I felt like leaving the cops when it was
Speaker 1: drinking every afternoon then yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 1: So like I started in a squad, then yeah, it
Speaker 1: was I'm not critical of the people, it was just
Speaker 1: the way of the land culture. Yeah. So we work
Speaker 1: hard and we drink hard. Son, that's a big slap
Speaker 1: on the back. Here, you have another beer.
Speaker 2: And if you don't. So every for the listeners and
Speaker 2: the viewers, every police station, every squad has their own bar,
Speaker 2: the supplies apple, supplies of alcohol. And it would be
Speaker 2: normal for me and for other other police that did
Speaker 2: ten pm to six am shifts to have a drink
Speaker 2: at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in the
Speaker 2: morning before you went home half a strove home pissed,
Speaker 2: you know, I do know, no, Yeah, So, and what
Speaker 2: the point is I'm trying to make is that if
Speaker 2: you didn't do that, which is what which was part
Speaker 2: of the reason why I was forced that I left
Speaker 2: Queensound police. Further north you go up to Queensland, by
Speaker 2: the way, the more racist that gets. They've never worked
Speaker 2: with a nabritural police officer before, and they were like
Speaker 2: what the fuck. Yeah, and if you're not involved in
Speaker 2: the social bars and the piss up at the end
Speaker 2: of the shifts, then you're ostracized. I had a family
Speaker 2: to go home too. Yeah, I didn't want to do
Speaker 2: that anymore.
Speaker 1: Now I understand what you say. And there was a culture,
Speaker 1: and I think it's been acknowledged that there was a
Speaker 1: drinking culture in police in Queensland. I've been up there
Speaker 1: doing jobs up there, and yeah, the bars in the
Speaker 1: police station like we didn't have that in New South
Speaker 1: Wales or not official bars, the curtains under under the table.
Speaker 1: Not not not these days, I've got to say not.
Speaker 1: I've been out for four or five years. But not
Speaker 1: like it used to be. Like we could do. You
Speaker 1: could sit around in detective's office and bring in a
Speaker 1: cart and the beer and sit there and happily have
Speaker 1: a drink at the end of the day. That's certainly
Speaker 1: not not what I experienced prior to leaving the cops,
Speaker 1: So I suggest some of it's changed, but it is
Speaker 1: a tough environment.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm smiling because I don't believe you.
Speaker 3: But give me something, just tells me.
Speaker 2: Right, you've still got mates in a job and you're protecting.
Speaker 3: Let me let me say this.
Speaker 1: Since I left the police, I'm allowed to associate with
Speaker 1: police because i'm this yeah, notorious, notorious criminal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is which is what I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: to you about. They've gone after you. Hey, well they've
Speaker 2: gone after you. You're fucked up. You're different to them,
Speaker 2: You're freaking you're different breeds, so they'll find something on you,
Speaker 2: and they found it.
Speaker 1: Look, I don't want to say. I think the fact
Speaker 1: that I was charged on a Friday before I met
Speaker 1: the Parliamentary Committee on a Monday up at Barrable might
Speaker 1: say something. Yeah, maybe it was just a coincidence that
Speaker 1: it was urgent to charge me on the Friday before
Speaker 1: I speak to the parliament group on the Monday, But
Speaker 1: who knows.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Anyway, You're good, You're good. They should put two cops
Speaker 1: in here because you're trying to turn this into your podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh now do I take over?
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of The Vices Killersted Veronica Gory.
Speaker 3: Here we go in the cops.
Speaker 1: You would have had some fun times in the cops,
Speaker 1: some funny incident. We've got that dark humit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like the dark humor was I had a
Speaker 2: double fatal and sitting in the morgue.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is dark. Okay, sorry, I've got real.
Speaker 2: Dark hair, and I'm busting the door pay and I'm
Speaker 2: working with a first year Connie, and so like, as
Speaker 2: an aboriginal person, I believe in ghosts, marches, I call
Speaker 2: him and so I've made him stand at the door
Speaker 2: with my door opened while on paying. Another time, the
Speaker 2: same first year Connie went to the hospital someone had
Speaker 2: passed away and I had a and I've walked over
Speaker 2: and it's come undone and the hose was just like
Speaker 2: a sprinkler, like they're just going around and just like pissed,
Speaker 2: flying and flying around, and so I was absolutely saturated.
Speaker 2: And someone's piss.
Speaker 1: That's a nice day at work, isn't it. Okay?
Speaker 3: What are you?
Speaker 1: What are you most proud of in the cops? Like
Speaker 1: you left, God, you're a hard one I left, but
Speaker 1: there was there would have been something good.
Speaker 3: Well, you've already told the stuff.
Speaker 1: There's stuff where you've gone to the community and they
Speaker 1: could identify with you, and you could you could get
Speaker 1: Uncle Harry down off the off the roof and stuff
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: So you must have felt like you.
Speaker 1: Made some difference. You stay there for ten years, you're
Speaker 1: even very stupid, or you were getting something from the job.
Speaker 2: Time went really quick, and you think you'll know this
Speaker 2: when you're in the job. Time goes really quick, and
Speaker 2: before you know it's ten years, twenty years. I had
Speaker 2: a lot of good times with my partner, who was
Speaker 2: also aboriginal as well. So if you can imagine two
Speaker 2: black fellows with deadly sense of humors, well, we just
Speaker 2: laughed our way through the shifts and it made the
Speaker 2: shifts go quicker. Yeah, so I did have, you know,
Speaker 2: a few good times and have good laughs. After leaving
Speaker 2: him and then going sounds like I was in a
Speaker 2: relationship with him, but it.
Speaker 1: Felt like it, right, you can tell us, no, I
Speaker 1: wasn't oka. He was happily married, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and I used to go out socially with
Speaker 2: him and his wife would pick us up, if not
Speaker 2: his wife. It was the blue light tax here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, spoken about that. I don't think people are
Speaker 1: going to get shocked of that, especially in the country town.
Speaker 1: Or yeah, need a left time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I did have a few good times,
Speaker 2: but the bad times outweighed bad times.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so you started fresh faced, going to make
Speaker 1: a difference ten years when you walked out, did you
Speaker 1: feel like you made any difference? Was there anything that
Speaker 1: yeah made it worthwhile?
Speaker 2: No? Okay, my presence in the police did not make
Speaker 2: any impact to my community, to anyone. Really, I don't
Speaker 2: think anyone learned anything from me. In fact, I was
Speaker 2: told by what someone in tactical crime that you hated
Speaker 2: Aboriginal people and you hated women. Yeah, women should have
Speaker 2: been a job and hence we didn't really have a
Speaker 2: good contract.
Speaker 1: Where did you take the conversation from that?
Speaker 2: Who cares? I hate you too? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, good response.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's just water off for ducks back. But
Speaker 2: but then I take it home, you know, like what
Speaker 2: going home crying?
Speaker 1: Yeah? You know what about the we talk the justice
Speaker 1: system that you don't even like the term the justice system,
Speaker 1: but I talk courts and how confronting it is for
Speaker 1: an Aboriginal person to be put before the courts, because
Speaker 1: I've seen it in various forms. It's something that's courts
Speaker 1: intimidating for anyone. For Aboriginal people, the way they look
Speaker 1: at courts, what what's the feeling there? You would have
Speaker 1: seen it terrifying. Yeah, especially like.
Speaker 2: I think I wrote in Black and Blue that you know,
Speaker 2: these young ones that were running away and leeing, and
Speaker 2: you know I was in me and other place, were
Speaker 2: in foot pursuits with them, and vehicle pursuits for I
Speaker 2: do the same as well, you know, because the safeties
Speaker 2: can compromise. You know, if you're looking at a hefty sentence.
Speaker 2: You know, if one more you're on parole already you're
Speaker 2: on bail and you're you're fucked up, and you know,
Speaker 2: if you get quarter gray and you're going to go,
Speaker 2: you've been sold. You won't get any bail and you're
Speaker 2: going to be sentenced. And as a young person or
Speaker 2: an adult, to be separated by your family, especially for
Speaker 2: Abrginal people, like in cultural law, banishment is the hoys.
Speaker 2: So so we have our own Black Colow justice system.
Speaker 2: We don't talk about it too much. We don't want to. Really,
Speaker 2: it's got nothing to do with anyone. Like, it's just
Speaker 2: we have our own systems in place, and banishment is
Speaker 2: the worst form of punishment or retribution. And so when
Speaker 2: the white justice system banishes our family member from us
Speaker 2: into their custody, yeah, it's like it's your place to
Speaker 2: do that, like we do that, you know, And that
Speaker 2: the alleged crime, the white crime that they were alleged
Speaker 2: to have committed, it's not a crime for us. It's
Speaker 2: not a jailable sentence for us. It's not a it's
Speaker 2: not a banishment for us.
Speaker 1: It makes it makes it very complex, where what you're
Speaker 1: saying there that Okay, this is a group of people
Speaker 1: living together, all colors, all races, all backgrounds, and but
Speaker 1: the justice system doesn't work work for you guys, and
Speaker 1: it's a different way of looking at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not good for us.
Speaker 1: How do you think we could manage Well.
Speaker 2: I think here's the thing I go and I've said
Speaker 2: it a few times, but like us, black fallows, we
Speaker 2: don't need police and a justicism. Let us do our
Speaker 2: own thing. Use follows. You obviously want the police and
Speaker 2: the just system, you can have it. You cannot yourselves out,
Speaker 2: leave my people alone. Stop surveiling them when they get
Speaker 2: out of when they get out of jail and they're
Speaker 2: on parole and they've got a report we get as
Speaker 2: police officers, they get notified and they're waiting for that
Speaker 2: person to fuck up, and then they do, well, you know,
Speaker 2: apparently they do and they're back in again. It's got
Speaker 2: what chances do they have to you know? And also
Speaker 2: prison is not a place for rehabilitation.
Speaker 1: Not not in the traditional sense the way prisons are.
Speaker 1: That's why we've got such a high recidivism, right, And
Speaker 1: that's yeah, I personally think that the big difference that
Speaker 1: can be made when the when they're still kids and
Speaker 1: if we if we can keep kids out of jail
Speaker 1: and divert them somewhere, that is potentially a better, better
Speaker 1: fixed because you would say people become institutionalized that yeah,
Speaker 1: if they spent time locked up. The first one is
Speaker 1: a shock, second one an't able, and third it's not
Speaker 1: that bad.
Speaker 2: I get fed, Yeah, I'm getting three meals a day
Speaker 2: and I don't have to pay around for electricity.
Speaker 1: And just on. And I think it was when you
Speaker 1: were in the police, you were doing it tough. Financially,
Speaker 1: you weren't in a relationship single mum, you weren't getting
Speaker 1: overtime shifts and different things. And there was one and
Speaker 1: it was a sweet name and a nice gesture where
Speaker 1: you didn't have food for your kids at Christmas time
Speaker 1: and you had enough for a meal of mince meat
Speaker 1: or whatever it was for dinner, and couldn't even make
Speaker 1: a Christmas lunch and someone from the police asked you
Speaker 1: to come over and spend Christmas with them. Talk us
Speaker 1: through that.
Speaker 2: She was mouldy once, so she was minority as well,
Speaker 2: and she invited myself and my kids to come down
Speaker 2: to her place for Christmas, and so I did. I
Speaker 2: took my kids there and they had the best say,
Speaker 2: you know. And the thing is, when I was in policing,
Speaker 2: I didn't have too many police mats, so I had
Speaker 2: no friends. So I talk about my partner that I
Speaker 2: worked with for many years. He wasn't a mate, you know,
Speaker 2: like he never had me and my kids at his place.
Speaker 2: He came to my own a few times prior to
Speaker 2: us going out on a purse. No one, no one,
Speaker 2: no one, no one invited me and my kids to
Speaker 2: barbecues or stuff like that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Look, I had no friends, but I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 1: But it just sadened me that you're you're working as
Speaker 1: a police officer and you can't can't afford to feed
Speaker 1: the kids.
Speaker 2: They never had Christmas presents.
Speaker 1: Now, there was one boss that did the right thing
Speaker 1: by when he f that's not up to me.
Speaker 3: Which one refresh my memory?
Speaker 1: Who wasn't there one that didn't realize how much you
Speaker 1: were struggling financially and then got your red.
Speaker 2: He was an inspector.
Speaker 1: Okay, yes, I knew i'd find someone that was a
Speaker 1: good person.
Speaker 3: Come on, yeah he was. He was nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he did firearms training with the big that's right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: firearms training. And I was standing aside and he just
Speaker 2: asked me how I was going, and not one to
Speaker 2: show away, I just loose lips here again, told him
Speaker 2: my sad story, and then he said I'll fix that up. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And he got me moved out of Generals and put
Speaker 2: me in a specialized area whereas back on O s.
Speaker 1: A that's an extra allowance that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and air was that I could manage with the children.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, you know, I don't know if
Speaker 2: you ever realized, but he was. He was really good,
Speaker 2: you know. And then that unit became very toxic as well.
Speaker 2: There was a few openly racist people. And then we'll
Speaker 2: do it going through I was in that section that
Speaker 2: station when they had the Palm Island rights.
Speaker 1: Okay, well that was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the racism was quite evident and that they
Speaker 2: will quite vocal about it. Actually, you know, it's very
Speaker 2: scary to be an agin police at that time.
Speaker 1: How angry that because someone there was a tall man
Speaker 1: charge charge with murder and then the police were again
Speaker 1: it's something that a lot of police sort of drew drew.
Speaker 1: They are angry that the police officer got charge.
Speaker 2: And also with Zachary Rolph as.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, the Northern Territory.
Speaker 2: Same thing. And I just want to bring up too, sorry,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about average kids. So I go from one
Speaker 2: thing to the other, and I'm going to fidget in
Speaker 2: my hand. This is my life as a cop. You said,
Speaker 2: what did I get out of it? I learned how
Speaker 2: to commit crime, white crime, and get away with it.
Speaker 1: I was going to finish off on the fact that
Speaker 1: we found that supervisor that was a nice cop. But look,
Speaker 1: that's a segue. We'll go into the next part. I
Speaker 1: don't know where this is going to take us, because
Speaker 1: your second book, When Cops Are Criminals, good title. In
Speaker 1: this book edited a number of short stories about people's
Speaker 1: experience with corruption, brutality, races, and dealing with the police. Now,
Speaker 1: this is a blurb on the book. I'll just read
Speaker 1: it out. A powerful indictment of the criminal behavior of
Speaker 1: police officers and a call for institutional reform. Edited by
Speaker 1: multi award winning author of Black and Blue. That's your Yeah,
Speaker 1: you knew that, deo. All right, move along, move along.
Speaker 1: When Cops of Criminals examines the widespread problem of police
Speaker 1: brutality and corruption from the perspectives of those who understand
Speaker 1: it in depth, pulling together the accounts of survivors, campaigners,
Speaker 1: and academics, explores different forms of criminal behavior by police,
Speaker 1: the factors that contribute to it, the impact it has
Speaker 1: on victims, and the challenges of holding perpetrators accountable. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that's another heavy book that you've written. I won't
Speaker 1: go into it, but I've read it, and that's a
Speaker 1: series of examples of people's own experiences, their stories of
Speaker 1: different people that have experienced whether it's brutality, racism, or
Speaker 1: corruption in dealing with the police. Is there some stories
Speaker 1: you can talk from the book or things that you
Speaker 1: think is of interest.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So firstly, I want to applaud the contributors who
Speaker 2: have shared their experiences and want the listeners to know
Speaker 2: that I have a lot of pseudonyms. There are a
Speaker 2: lot of pseudonyms, and some events have happened. There's one example,
Speaker 2: and this person is still terrified to come out and
Speaker 2: be publicly publicly named themselves due to you know, like
Speaker 2: bubble force to perjure, to commit perjuring in court by detectives,
Speaker 2: and their life was in dangerous a result due to
Speaker 2: the threats made. So that resonated with.
Speaker 1: Me that was a witness to an assault or.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that that person put a complaint in against
Speaker 2: those detectives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they I'll put in Layman's terms about the
Speaker 1: witness not to didn't say anything, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: And so this person's lived with that, and you know,
Speaker 2: and they've always been an honest person, and you know,
Speaker 2: they don't lie, They're very honest, but they were forced
Speaker 2: to and that's you know, that's the power that police
Speaker 2: have that they can do that to somebody. Another chapter
Speaker 2: that resonated with me was Kate Passinis the last chapter
Speaker 2: a white form of Copper, And why that resonated with
Speaker 2: me was because pretty much much of what Kate was
Speaker 2: writing about is what I wrote in Black and Blue,
Speaker 2: so it validated to make it validated what I wrote
Speaker 2: about in Black and Blue. And so when I, as
Speaker 2: a black woman, when a black person shares their experiences,
Speaker 2: it's yeah, we read it, Okay, that's to be expected.
Speaker 2: But when a white person explained says the same thing
Speaker 2: and says that happen, people take notice. And that's for
Speaker 2: way again, black fellows aren't good victims.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because people aren't. The people aren't listening.
Speaker 2: They don't care. All lords don't matter, Black lives don't matter.
Speaker 2: I look, and it should I was.
Speaker 1: I think when we're talking about the George Floyd and
Speaker 1: the marching and the Black Lives Matters marches, and yeah,
Speaker 1: because I just out of the cops in controversial circumstances
Speaker 1: have been asked by the media, what are you doing here? Like,
Speaker 1: what's this about? And I made the point, well, I'm
Speaker 1: marching for a personal reason in that I've seen parable
Speaker 1: other cases as well where the attention that should have
Speaker 1: been given to to the investigations wasn't. And the point
Speaker 1: being that black lives do matter, and it should have
Speaker 1: been properly resourced, regardless of who the victim is. But
Speaker 1: heavy reading. It's heavy reading for a cop, and it
Speaker 1: brings shame to all of us at the police. Look
Speaker 1: and I've got to say, I'm proud of stuff that
Speaker 1: I've done in police, and I don't think I'm the
Speaker 1: exception that there's people that I look up to, the
Speaker 1: outstanding citizens. But this is about your experience and your
Speaker 1: experience that I can't. You're a woman, you're a black woman,
Speaker 1: you're in the police, and the experiences. How do you
Speaker 1: think we can change the culture to make it a
Speaker 1: better place? Like if say one of your children wanted
Speaker 1: to join the police, I'm suggesting that mum wouldn't let them,
Speaker 1: but or they'd want to. But if someone did, someone
Speaker 1: someone decided, What do you think how do you think
Speaker 1: the organization could change?
Speaker 3: Is the culture?
Speaker 1: Is it capable of changing its culture?
Speaker 2: No, it can't be changed. It's so deeply entrenched. It's systemic. Actually,
Speaker 2: they teach you to be racist, they teach you to
Speaker 2: pull over Pacific Islander people because they're known to not
Speaker 2: have any driver's license. They teach you to pull over
Speaker 2: and strip search. To Vietnamese people because they're known to
Speaker 2: be drug dealers. That's what they teach you, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. So it's like it's never going to end.
Speaker 1: Can it?
Speaker 3: Can it?
Speaker 1: Individuals make a difference? But can the individuals?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So as a community instead of calling police, there
Speaker 2: are actually right now there are communities that are experiment
Speaker 2: experimenting with this whereby they don't call police and they're
Speaker 2: sorting out the issue, sitting down and working out, you know,
Speaker 2: and talking about it. You know. And I know I
Speaker 2: don't have all the answers.
Speaker 1: Because I just challenge you with that. You've been a
Speaker 1: police officer long enough to know sometimes you just can't
Speaker 1: sort that. Sometimes people have got to be taken out
Speaker 1: of play for whatever reason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some things that can't be you know, there's
Speaker 2: crimes against children and yeah, I know where you're going
Speaker 2: with that, and crimes against a person serious. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: just think there's other ways to deal with it. I
Speaker 2: don't think jails are way. I want to, Like a
Speaker 2: lot of people that are incarcerated right now, have what
Speaker 2: they're suffering from mental health issues and former addictions, and
Speaker 2: probably as a result of their mental health issue that
Speaker 2: is not getting properly treated prior to being imprisoned and
Speaker 2: whilst they're being incarcerated. So you go again, prison is
Speaker 2: not a place for a rehabilitation. There's other ways to
Speaker 2: deal with it. Yeah, I just don't have all the
Speaker 2: answers right now, but I'm working on it. That'll be
Speaker 2: the next book.
Speaker 1: Okay, what what inspired this book? Your success to your
Speaker 1: first book? Multi award winning author. Yeah, that's what I'm
Speaker 1: going to call you from there off. You're just going
Speaker 1: to have to wear it to take the shame award
Speaker 1: winning author we don't like big note. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I mean, shame.
Speaker 2: What prompted me to write this?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 2: I used to follow this account holder on Twitter prior
Speaker 2: to becoming ex dB police have over and they were
Speaker 2: really brutally honest with the stuff that they were tweeting,
Speaker 2: and some of the stuff was triggering, and then I
Speaker 2: done follow. Then follow become a pattern behavior, and then
Speaker 2: I reached out to him and slid into the d
Speaker 2: MS and I didn't know I just said, would you
Speaker 2: want to meet up? I would love to have a
Speaker 2: and obviously to myself and they they will follow me
Speaker 2: as well. And so that person met up with me
Speaker 2: and they're one of the contributors in the anthology as well,
Speaker 2: and I just let them. We met at a safe
Speaker 2: place that was safe for them. And they're a former
Speaker 2: wife of a copper, a police officer who had over
Speaker 2: seventy five charters against him. Yeah, who was subjected to
Speaker 2: a lot of brutality and harm and torture. And you know,
Speaker 2: like I like, this person told me the whole story,
Speaker 2: but I've only written you know, portion of it, a
Speaker 2: portion of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then I and then I just was this person
Speaker 2: was talking. I said, oh, if I did an anthology, yeah,
Speaker 2: you prepared to tell your story, and this person said yes.
Speaker 2: And then so I just rang up my publishers and said,
Speaker 2: I have got no idea for another book, because you
Speaker 2: never want to be that one that does it like
Speaker 2: one book wonder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want to try and get that
Speaker 1: can book out. Yeah, I've written two books christ otherwise
Speaker 1: I would have been embarrassed.
Speaker 2: Put on your mate, I've got a third one and
Speaker 2: the fourth No, no, I don't have it. I mean
Speaker 2: it's in my head and written yet. Yeah, okay, we'll
Speaker 2: started the fourth one. But now I've got an idea
Speaker 2: for the third one. Yeah, I'm just waiting to hear.
Speaker 1: But they generally start off as an idea, don't they,
Speaker 1: And then it's got.
Speaker 2: To yeah, what's your process?
Speaker 1: Because well, when when I left the Cops in dramatic
Speaker 1: and controversial circumstances, yeah, that's that's what I said. Fucking hell,
Speaker 1: I thought I want to set the record straight because
Speaker 1: there was a lot of narrative been said and a
Speaker 1: lot of things that were being said that weren't true.
Speaker 1: So that that inspired the first book, And once I started,
Speaker 1: it was cathartic for me too, I felt, Yeah, after that,
Speaker 1: it was pretty pretty heavy going for me. This was
Speaker 1: a job I loved, I was passionate about, and it
Speaker 1: was taken away overnight. So what am I going to do?
Speaker 1: The book was good for me, it went well, and
Speaker 1: on the back of that, I were and I did
Speaker 1: the book with a person that I've worked closely with.
Speaker 1: He used to be a crime reporter, Dan Box, so
Speaker 1: it worked well together, you know Dan. Yeah, he wrote
Speaker 1: Bearable the book too, you know. He and he did
Speaker 1: a podcast on it, so he understood where I'm coming from,
Speaker 1: and so did did that and then we thought, okay,
Speaker 1: what have you got to say next? And I thought, well,
Speaker 1: with Badness will tell people what what creates badness? Where
Speaker 1: does it evil work? And sort of take a deep,
Speaker 1: dark dip into that.
Speaker 2: People like reading about that misery loves company, which we
Speaker 2: won't mean you can so well.
Speaker 1: Am I company and your misery or vice versa. I'm
Speaker 1: very happy, Okay, I'm.
Speaker 2: Yeah. People love reading about well, it takes them away
Speaker 2: from their dramas or what's happening in their lives.
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose like, yeah, I'm doing this true crime podcast,
Speaker 1: and what's what's that about? People are fascinated by crime,
Speaker 1: and I get us at time and time again, what
Speaker 1: is it about? I think people don't generally, people don't
Speaker 1: get to see the side of the world that cops
Speaker 1: see and that side of the world, and so I
Speaker 1: think they're interested in it, and that's why I think
Speaker 1: there's an obsession with it. So yeah, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: like storytelling. You say your people like storytelling. I like storytelling,
Speaker 1: and I see having a podcast like this is almost
Speaker 1: like telling a story or.
Speaker 2: For the root listeners again that you and I both
Speaker 2: we know what we can and can't say. We know
Speaker 2: how to cover our asses, you know, And yeah, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean because I've worked on that side.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I don't want I don't know you, but
Speaker 1: I don't want to go to court again. If I
Speaker 1: never set foot in another court for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life, I'd be happy because I hated court. I
Speaker 1: didn't it was a necessary evil. When I was in
Speaker 1: the cops and there's a homicide detective, I spent a
Speaker 1: hell of a lot of time in the court, and
Speaker 1: then as a defendant, I spent a hell of a
Speaker 1: lot of time in the court. And if I never
Speaker 1: see another court again, I'll be a happy man. Somehow,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to work. I suspect I
Speaker 1: will be in court again at some stage, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an intimidating environment. I'm hoping by having you on
Speaker 1: the podcast and talking and just having a yarn like
Speaker 1: we have, people get an understanding of the issues because
Speaker 1: you've brought up some things, and you know, I think
Speaker 1: I know my stuff around the world that you live in,
Speaker 1: but it's a different perspective. If you'll walk those footsteps
Speaker 1: and yeah, I can only imagine how hard it was. Well,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine going in the cops being discriminated because
Speaker 1: of your race, because of your sex, and a cultural discrimination.
Speaker 1: Whether people went the way own it or not, there
Speaker 1: would be what's why we got a woman in the cops,
Speaker 1: an aboriginal woman like it would have been hard for you.
Speaker 1: The fact that you used to turn up for work
Speaker 1: an hour before your shift started because you wanted to
Speaker 1: show people, look, I'm here, I'm worthwhile. That made me sad.
Speaker 2: Well, No, that was a form of rock, a strategy
Speaker 2: to get me there because I had so much anxiety.
Speaker 2: So and I still do this that to the day.
Speaker 2: Like this morning when I flew, I was three hours
Speaker 2: before the floor.
Speaker 1: So that's so.
Speaker 2: But that was one of my tactics is to get
Speaker 2: there before them. And because if I didn't, I was
Speaker 2: ringing up and I had gastrow, you know, and it's
Speaker 2: very contagious.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can't come in but that that you
Speaker 1: hated going to work that much, so you're you're going
Speaker 1: in early just to make sure you get in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and munchholes. Now I was somewhat okay.
Speaker 1: You're injured a few times in the cops as well.
Speaker 1: What was the story there? What happened there?
Speaker 2: Ohracing people and you know, do me out and yeah,
Speaker 2: what what is you talking about.
Speaker 3: To tell us about the chase?
Speaker 1: People love chase? Story about the chase? Did you catch them? Yes,
Speaker 1: such a but you injured? Injured in my knee diving
Speaker 1: tackle or just grabbing around the collin.
Speaker 2: No, he was hiding in a ben sorry, and the
Speaker 2: dog has come out and got him, okay. And that's
Speaker 2: the thing, like if anything, like prior to during the place,
Speaker 2: I'd done a lot of stupid things, and I was
Speaker 2: in foot chases for police, being chased by croppers. So
Speaker 2: when I was a cop, I was going where where
Speaker 2: would I hide? So that's why I always caught him.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I did a lot of shitty things though,
Speaker 2: Like I don't like I'm sitting here laughing, but seriously,
Speaker 2: it's not funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, I don't think you should look back and
Speaker 1: be too hard on yourself. It's a culture and it takes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so hard to stand up to a culture of
Speaker 1: an organization like the police. It's powerful. It's to push back,
Speaker 1: and I feel sorry for some people that come unstuck
Speaker 1: in the police that yeah, they didn't have the strength
Speaker 1: to stand up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just want to I'm not sorry another
Speaker 2: a trigger war, but this is how much our lives
Speaker 2: don't matter. And what I want people to get out
Speaker 2: of Black and Blue, for example, is that if cops
Speaker 2: can treat one of their own, not that, how the
Speaker 2: fuck dore they treat my people out in the community
Speaker 2: where you can only imagine, Right, But when I wasn't
Speaker 2: a job, a young Aboriginal copper who just come out
Speaker 2: of the academy committed suicide, nothing, no one heard about that,
Speaker 2: there's no media about that. And when a white copper
Speaker 2: committed suicide at the police station, headline headlines, front page.
Speaker 1: Is that you put that down to what we talked
Speaker 1: about before, that people don't care.
Speaker 2: Lives don't matter, even in uniform. Yeah, their lives don't matter.
Speaker 2: And like we know, we know that police and other
Speaker 2: cast rel agents and government officials, government companies and you know,
Speaker 2: welfare and all that partner human services, they have a
Speaker 2: quota to meet. They've got to they have to employ
Speaker 2: diverse people, people from minority groups, Aberta and torrestraight on
Speaker 2: the people. So we know we're just a number to them.
Speaker 2: But once we're not looked after and they don't give
Speaker 2: a shit if we leave.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I'd like to find the solutions, solutions
Speaker 1: to problems. I think it would be beneficial if you
Speaker 1: could have more minority groups in there, being Aboriginal, Fustraight
Speaker 1: Islanders in the police. It has to be very official.
Speaker 2: Police should be representing the community that they're policing in,
Speaker 2: and the community is not just white men. But I wouldn't.
Speaker 2: I don't want to fix policing. It's never going to
Speaker 2: be fixed. In my opinion. It's never going to get better.
Speaker 2: No amount of training it's going to make it better.
Speaker 2: They're still going to target my people.
Speaker 1: I find that I'm not disagreeing. I just find it
Speaker 1: sad that.
Speaker 2: I understand everyone has different views and opinions, and that's
Speaker 2: my one. There's no fixing it. Okay, there's no such
Speaker 2: thing as a good curb. I mean, you know that's
Speaker 2: I thought I was a good curb. I wasn't.
Speaker 3: I will see I.
Speaker 1: Again and the good parties that we can have different views.
Speaker 1: I saw, I saw a lot of good cops, good cops,
Speaker 1: and they're still in there now. They're smarter ones and
Speaker 1: more ethical and everything else.
Speaker 2: And well, I think I'm going to quote my oldest
Speaker 2: daughter here, who moderated my book Clatch, and we did
Speaker 2: a panel with the contributors and the contributors, and my
Speaker 2: daughter said, probably the good cops was the one the
Speaker 2: lazy ones that did all because they weren't incriminating people
Speaker 2: and putting them, entering people into the justice system.
Speaker 1: We talked off off Mike about lazy cops. That's my
Speaker 1: bane of existence. When I was in the cops, they
Speaker 1: used to give me the ships that they get paid
Speaker 1: and people would say that they work hard. I saw
Speaker 1: some people that just didn't work.
Speaker 2: But I saw a lot of coppers, like sergeants and
Speaker 2: that when we're doing night shift, camping out behind it asking,
Speaker 2: he's sleeping back, sleeping, fucking and we're like tip tiling
Speaker 2: around him.
Speaker 1: It was his Coby house, he was training, his caby house.
Speaker 1: Let him, let him, let him sleep.
Speaker 2: And then when I was a recruit, and I've written
Speaker 2: about it in Black and Blue, I worked with one
Speaker 2: of the old boys who refused to let anyone drive
Speaker 2: and he slept. He slept during the shift and we
Speaker 2: parked on the highway under the bridge and he's in
Speaker 2: a driver suit. So he went back and he had
Speaker 2: a snooze for a couple of hours, and I was
Speaker 2: just sitting in the passenger seat, just looking around to
Speaker 2: change all the stolen cars can pass.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I'm probably not starlin.
Speaker 2: I'm just all the it's not stealing anyway, it's borring.
Speaker 2: And that's another look.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, no you go.
Speaker 3: Well I thought it was.
Speaker 1: I'm given up. Okay, no, I I know what you're
Speaker 1: saying with the police, and you need the police. That's
Speaker 1: my my position. You need the police, Okay, don't know. Okay,
Speaker 1: we need it, but I think we've gotta we've gotta
Speaker 1: stay try and stay postic.
Speaker 2: Well I or do you need them?
Speaker 1: Well, I don't need them, now.
Speaker 2: Need them?
Speaker 1: I know I do. Cool police, Okay, this is this
Speaker 1: is my view again, what do you want?
Speaker 3: This is my This is cool police.
Speaker 1: Really, I would be hard pressed they probably hang up
Speaker 1: if I did. This is what I think policing should be.
Speaker 1: So I'll run this past. We're going to try and
Speaker 1: try and bring some value to it or some something
Speaker 1: that policing should be. I think police should represent the community.
Speaker 1: So if the community you know where we try to
Speaker 1: increase the arrest rates or you've got the charts that
Speaker 1: you're trying to meet and all this. What should the
Speaker 1: police should be judged on? Is the community happy with
Speaker 1: the service they provide. I think that should be the simplest,
Speaker 1: simplest thing to put across. So you've got a community
Speaker 1: you don't want police, but let's just say in the
Speaker 1: world there's police. If you're living in the community and
Speaker 1: the community are happy with the way the police are
Speaker 1: policing the community, do you think then the police have
Speaker 1: done their job.
Speaker 2: I'm never going to agree. Sorry, it doesn't matter. You
Speaker 2: can put but you could fucking sprinkle you call one
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousand, you call.
Speaker 1: It fairy bread.
Speaker 2: I like fairy bread, so sprinkles much. But I ain't
Speaker 2: going to change my opinion on it because I just
Speaker 2: know the harm that it does to my people. Okay,
Speaker 2: all right, not just my people, but people who are minority, black, black,
Speaker 2: and brown people, people from the LGBTQ plus community, you know,
Speaker 2: trans people, you know, traded with so much disrespect, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? And I still can't agree. Sorry,
Speaker 2: I can't.
Speaker 3: Can we can we edit? Can we edit that?
Speaker 1: We smart. No, I'm jaking.
Speaker 3: I'm jaking.
Speaker 1: No, I want you, I can't.
Speaker 2: I just see so much harm. And the contributors like
Speaker 2: their experiences. And since I've written when Cops Are Criminals,
Speaker 2: have had multiple, many, many emails, you know, people want
Speaker 2: to tell me their experiences and you know, and I
Speaker 2: want to call everyone back and email them back, but
Speaker 2: I've just been really busy at the minute, you know,
Speaker 2: And I feel like this should be edition one, you know,
Speaker 2: like we could go on for days, and like almost
Speaker 2: every week it's in the papers something that you know,
Speaker 2: And yeah, mainstream media will always say wilst off duty
Speaker 2: and off judy copper, who gives a fuck? If there's
Speaker 2: no such things off duty? And you know that, right,
Speaker 2: no such thing. Yeah, I think if a paramatic or nurse,
Speaker 2: there's no such things off If.
Speaker 1: You if you've given the power of being a police officer,
Speaker 1: you've got to conduct yourself in the way whether you're
Speaker 1: on duty off duty, it doesn't matter you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And also they train you to teach treat people like
Speaker 2: it's your family member, how you you would expect your
Speaker 2: family members to be treated? Are they killing their their
Speaker 2: family members? Sad? All right?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to break you don't try.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not working in again, but I don't have
Speaker 2: all the answers.
Speaker 1: But no, And look, the thing that I'm really proud
Speaker 1: of what we do on the podcast here. I want
Speaker 1: people to form their own view. We've had we've had
Speaker 1: had to chat people people here where you come from.
Speaker 1: The shout out to your books if you want to
Speaker 1: get a more in depth understanding of where you're coming
Speaker 1: from and what you're about. But I respect your opinion.
Speaker 1: That's You're entitled to your opinion. You've been there, you've
Speaker 1: done that, and yeah, so I've seen it all, so
Speaker 1: I'm sure you.
Speaker 2: Have to sorry bringing it down with me. Mate, were
Speaker 2: both on a court.
Speaker 1: I'm just depressed now. They're not going to lock me
Speaker 1: up again, are they? I don't want to go the court. Look,
Speaker 1: it's been a real pleasure. As I said at the start,
Speaker 1: I've wanted to meet you for a very very long
Speaker 1: time when I heard about what you what you're doing,
Speaker 1: and I've been looking out for the opportunity. So it's
Speaker 1: great to meet you and you haven't disappointed, and I've
Speaker 1: really enjoyed our chat. Pleasure. Well, Veronica's are feeling certainly
Speaker 1: run deep. I couldn't convince it to say anything positive
Speaker 1: about her experience in the in the police, but I
Speaker 1: think it's important here on I Catch Killers that we
Speaker 1: allowed people of platform to have this, and I think
Speaker 1: it's interesting to get a view of an Indigenous lady
Speaker 1: in the police force and the impact it had on her.
Speaker 1: I find her an interesting woman, and I think she's
Speaker 1: a courageous woman. She calls things the way she sees it,
Speaker 1: and everyone's entitled to an opinion, and Veronica's shared that
Speaker 1: opinion with us, so I hope you enjoyed it.