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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Veronica Gory,

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Speaker 1: an Indigenous woman who joined the police to make a difference,

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Speaker 1: but found she was fighting an organization embedded with racism

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Speaker 1: and discrimination. Veronica, welcome back, Thank you. Okay, I'm from

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Speaker 1: the notes out on this one. Where what are we

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Speaker 1: going to yarn about? And where's this going to take us?

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Speaker 2: So I think, prior to putting the headphones on or

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Speaker 2: getting being recorded, we're talking about. What were we talking about.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about cases that don't get the attention

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Speaker 1: and the media, the media, the lack of interest.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I think I brought it up earlier,

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Speaker 2: when victims black fellows don't make good victims to police

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Speaker 2: because they're so used to locking us up. And so

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Speaker 2: when we do report matters, on the off chance that

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Speaker 2: we do report matters, and for example, a young Abrish

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Speaker 2: woman in Western Australia walked into a police station and

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Speaker 2: wanted to take a domestic violence order out on her partner. Brave,

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Speaker 2: very brave, because we don't turn to police for help.

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Speaker 2: But she'd obviously have been subjected to so much that

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Speaker 2: she had to like the last resort and she died

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Speaker 2: in custody. They locked her up and she ended up

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Speaker 2: dying custody, killed in custody. Yeah, so when we have

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Speaker 2: you just look at the media. They play a big

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Speaker 2: part in this as well. They don't report matters whereby

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Speaker 2: abriginal people or the victims, or you don't see mainstream

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Speaker 2: media about the abriaginal dressing custodies.

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Speaker 1: You see it on an I t V, SBS or

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Speaker 1: the A B C. Where you're quite often preaching to

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Speaker 1: the converted. But I know when I was in the

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Speaker 1: cops and the lack of interest in that if I

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Speaker 1: was investigating a murder with an Indigenous person in it

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Speaker 1: from from the media because it's it doesn't sell papers

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And I see it now that I'm in

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Speaker 1: the media. It's hard to get people interested in stories.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder what that's about. I often think, is

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Speaker 1: it because well, that's happened to an Indigenous person, It's

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Speaker 1: not going to happen to us because we're white. What

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Speaker 1: do you why do you think there's a lack of

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Speaker 1: interest from the from the media in indigenous matters like that.

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Speaker 2: I just think they don't give a fuck a about

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Speaker 2: the traditional owners of the country that they're you know

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Speaker 2: of this country and the stolen lands that they're now

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Speaker 2: living on. Don't give a fuck about us. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're still you know, like we've intergenerational trauma. They're still

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Speaker 2: carrying the the colonizers.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're carrying the attitude. You guys are carrying

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Speaker 1: the trauma. We're carrying the attitude.

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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying, Yeah, they don't care about us,

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Speaker 2: like our lives don't matter. You know, it's just one

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Speaker 2: less black beatlet to deal with in this country. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's where's the outrage?

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Speaker 1: How can that be changed?

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Speaker 2: I don't I don't have all the answers. I think

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Speaker 2: with the families, I can say, keep pressing a lot

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Speaker 2: with the media, keep their stories, keep the you know,

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Speaker 2: their lives, their lives do matter. Your family members matter,

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Speaker 2: Your grief matters. And that's the thing with abishinal families.

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Speaker 2: Almost every Abershall family has been affected by a deaf

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Speaker 2: and custody and we're having death and custodies all over

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Speaker 2: this country. And as a community, we grieve for the families,

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Speaker 2: and we may not have met them, we grieve, we

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Speaker 2: cry with this family. And then what happens with that

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Speaker 2: family They bury their loved one, and then the coronial

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Speaker 2: inquest begins and then the family is subjected to visions

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Speaker 2: of the very last moments they loved one was a lower,

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Speaker 2: the last breath they loved one took. And then never

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Speaker 2: usually successful outcomes, which is what I mentioned before Abershare people,

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Speaker 2: we never usually have happy endings, which and that's what

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Speaker 2: I meant by that. And then whilst we go with

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Speaker 2: that family we're all hearing about it through our networks,

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Speaker 2: which is like cream MA, NATV, not mainstream media. There'll

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Speaker 2: be another different custody. So it's like as Aboriginal people

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Speaker 2: were always grieving and it's every day we're fighting the system,

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Speaker 2: and the justice system is set up to harm our people,

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Speaker 2: my people. You know, if they don't kill us, they're

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Speaker 2: locking us up, putting his way out aside, out of mind,

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Speaker 2: you know. And you talk about Northern Territory again, you've

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Speaker 2: got people getting Lemphy sentences up there for unlicensed driving

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Speaker 2: like fuck may like you know, like if a non

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Speaker 2: Indigenous person commits what is deemed to be you know,

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Speaker 2: a serious crime, an indictable offense, whereby it's they've harmed

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Speaker 2: a person, they're getting less less and like as a

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Speaker 2: black father, it's like where we've been made examples of.

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Speaker 2: It's like don't drive unlicensed you're going and you know what,

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Speaker 2: it's just.

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Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: If I play the devil's advocate here and say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you if you do the crime, you

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Speaker 1: should do that, do the time.

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Speaker 3: Well here's who's crime is it?

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Speaker 2: So it's white man's crime.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so then it's not our crime. Okay, So then

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Speaker 1: you're breaking it and breaking it down to that. I

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Speaker 1: know I've had conversations with people saying that when kids

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Speaker 1: are young kids and your talk Northern Territory and they're

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Speaker 1: being locked up from an early age, it's virtually their

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Speaker 1: their direction in life has been stamped by that by

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Speaker 1: that direction in that they've got such a history, criminal

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Speaker 1: history by the time they're an adult. If they commit

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Speaker 1: an offense going inside, what.

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Speaker 2: Hope do they have as an adult? You know, they

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Speaker 2: carry that criminal history, white man's criminal history into the adulthood.

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Speaker 2: What chance of getting a job and housing? And do

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Speaker 2: they have they have nothing?

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Speaker 1: Do you see a better way of are going off track?

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Speaker 1: A better way of dealing with I talk here Indigenous kids.

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Speaker 2: That's a yeah, yeah, stop locking them mart and giving

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Speaker 2: back to the families. These kids belong at home, not

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Speaker 2: in cages. There's another thing I wanted to talk about.

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Speaker 2: When it's gone, no, let's ask the next question. It

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Speaker 2: might come back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe I haven't got a question.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now, oh Devil's advocate.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm saying that people might say, well, if they're

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Speaker 1: committing crimes. Yeah, isn't the answer to lock them up?

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Speaker 1: And I'm saying that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So as an abolitionist, I'm moving away from the

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Speaker 2: language of, you know, the justice system and the very

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Speaker 2: white justice system, and so crimes, white crime, okay, because

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Speaker 2: you've got to remember policing. The first police in this

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Speaker 2: country were white convicts. Yeah, so it comes from a

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Speaker 2: criminal aspect anyway, Well, the white man's criminal aspect. To colonization,

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Speaker 2: we had no police here. There was no need for police.

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Speaker 2: We had our own ways of dealing with matters, which

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Speaker 2: we still do today.

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Speaker 1: Give us an example of that. It's something that people

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Speaker 1: have understand.

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Speaker 2: So, for example, if there's conflict in the family or

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Speaker 2: in the community, the first people we call is our

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Speaker 2: family members, and we sort it out that way through communication,

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Speaker 2: sitting down and having yarns sorting it out. We don't

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Speaker 2: call cops because the loclihood of cops sort it out

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Speaker 2: is very minimal. But also cops turn up after the

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Speaker 2: harm is done. Anyway, what is the point of their presence.

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Speaker 2: It's already got that the harm's being done, We've already

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Speaker 2: sorted it out. I want to go back to when

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Speaker 2: I was a police officer. I went to a again

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Speaker 2: sorry trigger warning a suicide aberginal family and the way

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Speaker 2: we grieve. The neighbors called, I just come from the

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Speaker 2: job with the CVIL side and as we're leaving, another

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Speaker 2: job come through the radio and it was CO two

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Speaker 2: or any unit Code two light and sirens. Quite urgent

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Speaker 2: to attend the same address because there was a there

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Speaker 2: was an altercation of people being loud and the disturbances

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Speaker 2: and all this stuff and fighting going on, and I

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Speaker 2: had to get on the radio and say stand down

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Speaker 2: because that's their grieving. Even when it's grieving, it's perceived

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Speaker 2: to be a crime, white.

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Speaker 1: Crime because it's loud, and.

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Speaker 2: That's the way we grieve. That's the way we grieve.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yep, Little little things like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And like those things weren't taught in the academy.

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Speaker 2: Another thing that wasn't taught in the academy academy when

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Speaker 2: I was there was that, And which I know they're

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Speaker 2: doing right now is they're separating female identifying recruits from

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Speaker 2: the male identifying recruits, and they're telling the females what

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Speaker 2: to expect when they're out there. You're going to be

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Speaker 2: preyed upon by the males.

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Speaker 1: As in the male cops.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yep, yes.

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Speaker 1: Did you experience that? Yes? In what form? And how

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Speaker 1: did you deal with it?

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Speaker 2: So I went to a party expecting to have a

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Speaker 2: good time and I was sexually assaulted and then stalked

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Speaker 2: afterwards for that very same officer.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of the sexual assault, did you complain

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Speaker 1: or what was it?

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Speaker 2: I knew. I knew from being on the inside and

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Speaker 2: being a black collar, the complaint wouldn't have went anywhere.

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Speaker 1: No one step in, no one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. My partner at the time dragged me away because

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Speaker 2: I feed for my safety that that night. Yeah, she

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Speaker 2: thought I was going to be gang raped, which is

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Speaker 2: quite common, which people I know, you kin'd of go

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Speaker 2: on your air. No, No, I'm group sex, yeah, gang rape.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting here and thinking.

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Speaker 2: I'm bringing it all out. I've got no filters.

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Speaker 1: So the whole thing on here on the podcast I

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers. We want to hear your side of things.

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Speaker 1: Why I'm looking pensive there, I'm thinking, fuck, if I

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Speaker 1: got a hint of that, I would knock the person out.

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Speaker 1: If there was a cop doing that to a female

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Speaker 1: police officer, I can't believe. I'm shocked that people didn't

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Speaker 1: stand up or.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, only one person stood up for me, and that

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Speaker 2: was my partner, and he was trying to convince me

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Speaker 2: to put in a complaint, but I was too scared.

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Speaker 2: And then, and that's another thing. When I say I

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Speaker 2: was complicit, it means I did a lot of the

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Speaker 2: stuff that other cops did. I caused harm, I arrested people.

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Speaker 2: I had the highest restaurant in the district, and I

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Speaker 2: had to do that. I had to work ten times

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Speaker 2: harder than the white males that were in my squad.

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Speaker 1: What was driving you to do that?

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Speaker 2: I had to prove to them that I was just

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Speaker 2: a school if not better than them. I owned my

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Speaker 2: spot in this squad shamingly like shame. You know, I

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Speaker 2: regret it now, Like if I go back to Queen's

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Speaker 2: Lane and apologize every person I've ever arrested, or every

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Speaker 2: person's that was loaded up because they gave him attitude,

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Speaker 2: you know, cops.

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Speaker 1: Loaded what and we're talking here?

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Speaker 2: Oh sorry, here we go, please talk. Sorry. Trying to

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Speaker 2: move away from but I keep coming back to it.

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Speaker 2: So loading up if you're deemed to be a smart ass,

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Speaker 2: and someone like black fellows, who we know are rites,

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Speaker 2: when when cops pull you over as a black fellow.

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Speaker 2: When they say, oh, we're just pulled over to do

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Speaker 2: a random breath test. Random, it's not random. We know

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Speaker 2: why we're getting pulled over because we're black and we're

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Speaker 2: different to them. But what were we talking about just before?

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Speaker 1: You were talking about loading someone up on which.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so if we're deemed it as young kids, Aboriginal people,

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Speaker 2: we've been due to twelve Aboriginal legal services. They give out,

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Speaker 2: you know, little cards. Know you're right. So even as

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Speaker 2: a ten year old kid, I knew my rights. If

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Speaker 2: pulled over or intercept it'll stop by police. So we

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Speaker 2: know our rights. We know what how much information you

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Speaker 2: were required to give to police, and know more well

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Speaker 2: you deemed to be a smart ass. And even as

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Speaker 2: an adult they or a child, they'll load you up,

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Speaker 2: obstruct police, public nuisance.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so they load you up.

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Speaker 2: With charges and enter and therefore you're entered into the

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Speaker 2: justice system which is also racist.

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Speaker 1: And that that that was your experience, and you were

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Speaker 1: saying that you were part part of it when you're

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Speaker 1: in there, Yeah, I was complicit in that. How does

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Speaker 1: that make you feel? There?

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Speaker 2: Ship very shut, you know, very very short it at that.

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Speaker 1: But it's so you're talking about like a pretty horrible

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Speaker 1: culture in the police. And I can sit here and

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Speaker 1: say I'm a policeman too, and I know there was

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Speaker 1: good parts and bad parts about the culture of police.

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Speaker 2: What parts did you have?

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Speaker 3: I had? Well, piss ups.

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Speaker 1: No, I went through that stage and it nearly killed me.

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Speaker 1: And I felt like leaving the cops when it was

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Speaker 1: drinking every afternoon then yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: So like I started in a squad, then yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was I'm not critical of the people, it was just

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Speaker 1: the way of the land culture. Yeah. So we work

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Speaker 1: hard and we drink hard. Son, that's a big slap

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Speaker 1: on the back. Here, you have another beer.

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Speaker 2: And if you don't. So every for the listeners and

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Speaker 2: the viewers, every police station, every squad has their own bar,

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Speaker 2: the supplies apple, supplies of alcohol. And it would be

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Speaker 2: normal for me and for other other police that did

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Speaker 2: ten pm to six am shifts to have a drink

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Speaker 2: at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in the

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Speaker 2: morning before you went home half a strove home pissed,

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Speaker 2: you know, I do know, no, Yeah, So, and what

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Speaker 2: the point is I'm trying to make is that if

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Speaker 2: you didn't do that, which is what which was part

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Speaker 2: of the reason why I was forced that I left

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Speaker 2: Queensound police. Further north you go up to Queensland, by

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Speaker 2: the way, the more racist that gets. They've never worked

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Speaker 2: with a nabritural police officer before, and they were like

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Speaker 2: what the fuck. Yeah, and if you're not involved in

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Speaker 2: the social bars and the piss up at the end

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Speaker 2: of the shifts, then you're ostracized. I had a family

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Speaker 2: to go home too. Yeah, I didn't want to do

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Speaker 2: that anymore.

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Speaker 1: Now I understand what you say. And there was a culture,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's been acknowledged that there was a

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Speaker 1: drinking culture in police in Queensland. I've been up there

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Speaker 1: doing jobs up there, and yeah, the bars in the

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Speaker 1: police station like we didn't have that in New South

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Speaker 1: Wales or not official bars, the curtains under under the table.

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Speaker 1: Not not not these days, I've got to say not.

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Speaker 1: I've been out for four or five years. But not

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Speaker 1: like it used to be. Like we could do. You

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Speaker 1: could sit around in detective's office and bring in a

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Speaker 1: cart and the beer and sit there and happily have

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Speaker 1: a drink at the end of the day. That's certainly

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Speaker 1: not not what I experienced prior to leaving the cops,

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Speaker 1: So I suggest some of it's changed, but it is

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Speaker 1: a tough environment.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm smiling because I don't believe you.

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Speaker 3: But give me something, just tells me.

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Speaker 2: Right, you've still got mates in a job and you're protecting.

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Speaker 3: Let me let me say this.

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Speaker 1: Since I left the police, I'm allowed to associate with

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Speaker 1: police because i'm this yeah, notorious, notorious criminal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which is which is what I wanted to talk

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Speaker 2: to you about. They've gone after you. Hey, well they've

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Speaker 2: gone after you. You're fucked up. You're different to them,

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Speaker 2: You're freaking you're different breeds, so they'll find something on you,

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Speaker 2: and they found it.

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Speaker 1: Look, I don't want to say. I think the fact

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Speaker 1: that I was charged on a Friday before I met

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Speaker 1: the Parliamentary Committee on a Monday up at Barrable might

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Speaker 1: say something. Yeah, maybe it was just a coincidence that

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Speaker 1: it was urgent to charge me on the Friday before

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Speaker 1: I speak to the parliament group on the Monday, But

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Speaker 1: who knows.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, You're good, You're good. They should put two cops

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Speaker 1: in here because you're trying to turn this into your podcast.

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Speaker 2: Oh now do I take over?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of The Vices Killersted Veronica Gory.

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Speaker 3: Here we go in the cops.

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Speaker 1: You would have had some fun times in the cops,

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Speaker 1: some funny incident. We've got that dark humit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like the dark humor was I had a

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Speaker 2: double fatal and sitting in the morgue.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is dark. Okay, sorry, I've got real.

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Speaker 2: Dark hair, and I'm busting the door pay and I'm

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Speaker 2: working with a first year Connie, and so like, as

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Speaker 2: an aboriginal person, I believe in ghosts, marches, I call

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Speaker 2: him and so I've made him stand at the door

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Speaker 2: with my door opened while on paying. Another time, the

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Speaker 2: same first year Connie went to the hospital someone had

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Speaker 2: passed away and I had a and I've walked over

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Speaker 2: and it's come undone and the hose was just like

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Speaker 2: a sprinkler, like they're just going around and just like pissed,

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Speaker 2: flying and flying around, and so I was absolutely saturated.

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Speaker 2: And someone's piss.

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Speaker 1: That's a nice day at work, isn't it. Okay?

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Speaker 3: What are you?

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Speaker 1: What are you most proud of in the cops? Like

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Speaker 1: you left, God, you're a hard one I left, but

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Speaker 1: there was there would have been something good.

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Speaker 3: Well, you've already told the stuff.

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Speaker 1: There's stuff where you've gone to the community and they

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Speaker 1: could identify with you, and you could you could get

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Speaker 1: Uncle Harry down off the off the roof and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 3: So you must have felt like you.

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Speaker 1: Made some difference. You stay there for ten years, you're

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Speaker 1: even very stupid, or you were getting something from the job.

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Speaker 2: Time went really quick, and you think you'll know this

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Speaker 2: when you're in the job. Time goes really quick, and

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Speaker 2: before you know it's ten years, twenty years. I had

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Speaker 2: a lot of good times with my partner, who was

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Speaker 2: also aboriginal as well. So if you can imagine two

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Speaker 2: black fellows with deadly sense of humors, well, we just

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Speaker 2: laughed our way through the shifts and it made the

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Speaker 2: shifts go quicker. Yeah, so I did have, you know,

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Speaker 2: a few good times and have good laughs. After leaving

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Speaker 2: him and then going sounds like I was in a

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Speaker 2: relationship with him, but it.

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Speaker 1: Felt like it, right, you can tell us, no, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't oka. He was happily married, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and I used to go out socially with

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Speaker 2: him and his wife would pick us up, if not

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Speaker 2: his wife. It was the blue light tax here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, spoken about that. I don't think people are

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Speaker 1: going to get shocked of that, especially in the country town.

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Speaker 1: Or yeah, need a left time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I did have a few good times,

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Speaker 2: but the bad times outweighed bad times.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, so you started fresh faced, going to make

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Speaker 1: a difference ten years when you walked out, did you

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Speaker 1: feel like you made any difference? Was there anything that

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Speaker 1: yeah made it worthwhile?

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Speaker 2: No? Okay, my presence in the police did not make

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Speaker 2: any impact to my community, to anyone. Really, I don't

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Speaker 2: think anyone learned anything from me. In fact, I was

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Speaker 2: told by what someone in tactical crime that you hated

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal people and you hated women. Yeah, women should have

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Speaker 2: been a job and hence we didn't really have a

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Speaker 2: good contract.

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Speaker 1: Where did you take the conversation from that?

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Speaker 2: Who cares? I hate you too? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Okay, good response.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's just water off for ducks back. But

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Speaker 2: but then I take it home, you know, like what

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Speaker 2: going home crying?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? You know what about the we talk the justice

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Speaker 1: system that you don't even like the term the justice system,

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Speaker 1: but I talk courts and how confronting it is for

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Speaker 1: an Aboriginal person to be put before the courts, because

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Speaker 1: I've seen it in various forms. It's something that's courts

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Speaker 1: intimidating for anyone. For Aboriginal people, the way they look

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Speaker 1: at courts, what what's the feeling there? You would have

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Speaker 1: seen it terrifying. Yeah, especially like.

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Speaker 2: I think I wrote in Black and Blue that you know,

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Speaker 2: these young ones that were running away and leeing, and

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Speaker 2: you know I was in me and other place, were

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Speaker 2: in foot pursuits with them, and vehicle pursuits for I

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Speaker 2: do the same as well, you know, because the safeties

398
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Speaker 2: can compromise. You know, if you're looking at a hefty sentence.

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Speaker 2: You know, if one more you're on parole already you're

400
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Speaker 2: on bail and you're you're fucked up, and you know,

401
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 2: if you get quarter gray and you're going to go,

402
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Speaker 2: you've been sold. You won't get any bail and you're

403
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Speaker 2: going to be sentenced. And as a young person or

404
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Speaker 2: an adult, to be separated by your family, especially for

405
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Speaker 2: Abrginal people, like in cultural law, banishment is the hoys.

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Speaker 2: So so we have our own Black Colow justice system.

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Speaker 2: We don't talk about it too much. We don't want to. Really,

408
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Speaker 2: it's got nothing to do with anyone. Like, it's just

409
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Speaker 2: we have our own systems in place, and banishment is

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Speaker 2: the worst form of punishment or retribution. And so when

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Speaker 2: the white justice system banishes our family member from us

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Speaker 2: into their custody, yeah, it's like it's your place to

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Speaker 2: do that, like we do that, you know, And that

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Speaker 2: the alleged crime, the white crime that they were alleged

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Speaker 2: to have committed, it's not a crime for us. It's

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Speaker 2: not a jailable sentence for us. It's not a it's

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Speaker 2: not a banishment for us.

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Speaker 1: It makes it makes it very complex, where what you're

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Speaker 1: saying there that Okay, this is a group of people

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Speaker 1: living together, all colors, all races, all backgrounds, and but

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Speaker 1: the justice system doesn't work work for you guys, and

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Speaker 1: it's a different way of looking at it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not good for us.

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Speaker 1: How do you think we could manage Well.

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Speaker 2: I think here's the thing I go and I've said

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Speaker 2: it a few times, but like us, black fallows, we

427
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Speaker 2: don't need police and a justicism. Let us do our

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Speaker 2: own thing. Use follows. You obviously want the police and

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Speaker 2: the just system, you can have it. You cannot yourselves out,

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Speaker 2: leave my people alone. Stop surveiling them when they get

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Speaker 2: out of when they get out of jail and they're

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Speaker 2: on parole and they've got a report we get as

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Speaker 2: police officers, they get notified and they're waiting for that

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Speaker 2: person to fuck up, and then they do, well, you know,

435
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Speaker 2: apparently they do and they're back in again. It's got

436
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: what chances do they have to you know? And also

437
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,479
Speaker 2: prison is not a place for rehabilitation.

438
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 1: Not not in the traditional sense the way prisons are.

439
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: That's why we've got such a high recidivism, right, And

440
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: that's yeah, I personally think that the big difference that

441
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: can be made when the when they're still kids and

442
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: if we if we can keep kids out of jail

443
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: and divert them somewhere, that is potentially a better, better

444
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: fixed because you would say people become institutionalized that yeah,

445
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: if they spent time locked up. The first one is

446
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: a shock, second one an't able, and third it's not

447
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: that bad.

448
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: I get fed, Yeah, I'm getting three meals a day

449
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 2: and I don't have to pay around for electricity.

450
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: And just on. And I think it was when you

451
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: were in the police, you were doing it tough. Financially,

452
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: you weren't in a relationship single mum, you weren't getting

453
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: overtime shifts and different things. And there was one and

454
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: it was a sweet name and a nice gesture where

455
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: you didn't have food for your kids at Christmas time

456
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: and you had enough for a meal of mince meat

457
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: or whatever it was for dinner, and couldn't even make

458
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: a Christmas lunch and someone from the police asked you

459
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: to come over and spend Christmas with them. Talk us

460
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: through that.

461
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: She was mouldy once, so she was minority as well,

462
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: and she invited myself and my kids to come down

463
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 2: to her place for Christmas, and so I did. I

464
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: took my kids there and they had the best say,

465
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 2: you know. And the thing is, when I was in policing,

466
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: I didn't have too many police mats, so I had

467
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: no friends. So I talk about my partner that I

468
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: worked with for many years. He wasn't a mate, you know,

469
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: like he never had me and my kids at his place.

470
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: He came to my own a few times prior to

471
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: us going out on a purse. No one, no one,

472
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: no one, no one invited me and my kids to

473
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: barbecues or stuff like that. You know what I mean.

474
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: Look, I had no friends, but I understand what you're saying.

475
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: But it just sadened me that you're you're working as

476
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: a police officer and you can't can't afford to feed

477
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: the kids.

478
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: They never had Christmas presents.

479
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: Now, there was one boss that did the right thing

480
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 1: by when he f that's not up to me.

481
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 3: Which one refresh my memory?

482
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: Who wasn't there one that didn't realize how much you

483
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: were struggling financially and then got your red.

484
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 2: He was an inspector.

485
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: Okay, yes, I knew i'd find someone that was a

486
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: good person.

487
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 3: Come on, yeah he was. He was nice.

488
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he did firearms training with the big that's right, Yeah, yeah,

489
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: firearms training. And I was standing aside and he just

490
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 2: asked me how I was going, and not one to

491
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: show away, I just loose lips here again, told him

492
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 2: my sad story, and then he said I'll fix that up. Yeah,

493
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 2: And he got me moved out of Generals and put

494
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: me in a specialized area whereas back on O s.

495
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: A that's an extra allowance that yeah, yeah.

496
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and air was that I could manage with the children.

497
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: So I don't know, you know, I don't know if

498
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: you ever realized, but he was. He was really good,

499
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: you know. And then that unit became very toxic as well.

500
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: There was a few openly racist people. And then we'll

501
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 2: do it going through I was in that section that

502
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: station when they had the Palm Island rights.

503
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: Okay, well that was.

504
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the racism was quite evident and that they

505
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: will quite vocal about it. Actually, you know, it's very

506
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: scary to be an agin police at that time.

507
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: How angry that because someone there was a tall man

508
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 1: charge charge with murder and then the police were again

509
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: it's something that a lot of police sort of drew drew.

510
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: They are angry that the police officer got charge.

511
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: And also with Zachary Rolph as.

512
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: Well, you know, the Northern Territory.

513
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: Same thing. And I just want to bring up too, sorry,

514
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: I'm talking about average kids. So I go from one

515
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: thing to the other, and I'm going to fidget in

516
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: my hand. This is my life as a cop. You said,

517
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: what did I get out of it? I learned how

518
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: to commit crime, white crime, and get away with it.

519
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: I was going to finish off on the fact that

520
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: we found that supervisor that was a nice cop. But look,

521
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: that's a segue. We'll go into the next part. I

522
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: don't know where this is going to take us, because

523
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: your second book, When Cops Are Criminals, good title. In

524
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: this book edited a number of short stories about people's

525
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: experience with corruption, brutality, races, and dealing with the police. Now,

526
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: this is a blurb on the book. I'll just read

527
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: it out. A powerful indictment of the criminal behavior of

528
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: police officers and a call for institutional reform. Edited by

529
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: multi award winning author of Black and Blue. That's your Yeah,

530
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: you knew that, deo. All right, move along, move along.

531
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: When Cops of Criminals examines the widespread problem of police

532
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: brutality and corruption from the perspectives of those who understand

533
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: it in depth, pulling together the accounts of survivors, campaigners,

534
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: and academics, explores different forms of criminal behavior by police,

535
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: the factors that contribute to it, the impact it has

536
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: on victims, and the challenges of holding perpetrators accountable. Okay,

537
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: so that's another heavy book that you've written. I won't

538
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: go into it, but I've read it, and that's a

539
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: series of examples of people's own experiences, their stories of

540
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: different people that have experienced whether it's brutality, racism, or

541
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: corruption in dealing with the police. Is there some stories

542
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: you can talk from the book or things that you

543
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: think is of interest.

544
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. So firstly, I want to applaud the contributors who

545
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: have shared their experiences and want the listeners to know

546
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: that I have a lot of pseudonyms. There are a

547
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: lot of pseudonyms, and some events have happened. There's one example,

548
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: and this person is still terrified to come out and

549
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: be publicly publicly named themselves due to you know, like

550
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: bubble force to perjure, to commit perjuring in court by detectives,

551
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: and their life was in dangerous a result due to

552
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: the threats made. So that resonated with.

553
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: Me that was a witness to an assault or.

554
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: Yes, and that that person put a complaint in against

555
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 2: those detectives.

556
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they I'll put in Layman's terms about the

557
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: witness not to didn't say anything, Yeah, I think.

558
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: And so this person's lived with that, and you know,

559
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,239
Speaker 2: and they've always been an honest person, and you know,

560
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: they don't lie, They're very honest, but they were forced

561
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: to and that's you know, that's the power that police

562
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: have that they can do that to somebody. Another chapter

563
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: that resonated with me was Kate Passinis the last chapter

564
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: a white form of Copper, And why that resonated with

565
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: me was because pretty much much of what Kate was

566
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: writing about is what I wrote in Black and Blue,

567
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: so it validated to make it validated what I wrote

568
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: about in Black and Blue. And so when I, as

569
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: a black woman, when a black person shares their experiences,

570
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: it's yeah, we read it, Okay, that's to be expected.

571
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: But when a white person explained says the same thing

572
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 2: and says that happen, people take notice. And that's for

573
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: way again, black fellows aren't good victims.

574
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, because people aren't. The people aren't listening.

575
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: They don't care. All lords don't matter, Black lives don't matter.

576
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: I look, and it should I was.

577
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: I think when we're talking about the George Floyd and

578
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: the marching and the Black Lives Matters marches, and yeah,

579
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: because I just out of the cops in controversial circumstances

580
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: have been asked by the media, what are you doing here? Like,

581
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: what's this about? And I made the point, well, I'm

582
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: marching for a personal reason in that I've seen parable

583
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: other cases as well where the attention that should have

584
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: been given to to the investigations wasn't. And the point

585
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: being that black lives do matter, and it should have

586
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: been properly resourced, regardless of who the victim is. But

587
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,719
Speaker 1: heavy reading. It's heavy reading for a cop, and it

588
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: brings shame to all of us at the police. Look

589
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: and I've got to say, I'm proud of stuff that

590
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: I've done in police, and I don't think I'm the

591
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: exception that there's people that I look up to, the

592
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: outstanding citizens. But this is about your experience and your

593
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: experience that I can't. You're a woman, you're a black woman,

594
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: you're in the police, and the experiences. How do you

595
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: think we can change the culture to make it a

596
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: better place? Like if say one of your children wanted

597
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: to join the police, I'm suggesting that mum wouldn't let them,

598
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: but or they'd want to. But if someone did, someone

599
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: someone decided, What do you think how do you think

600
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: the organization could change?

601
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: Is the culture?

602
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: Is it capable of changing its culture?

603
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: No, it can't be changed. It's so deeply entrenched. It's systemic. Actually,

604
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: they teach you to be racist, they teach you to

605
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: pull over Pacific Islander people because they're known to not

606
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: have any driver's license. They teach you to pull over

607
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: and strip search. To Vietnamese people because they're known to

608
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: be drug dealers. That's what they teach you, you know what

609
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: I mean. So it's like it's never going to end.

610
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: Can it?

611
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: Can it?

612
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: Individuals make a difference? But can the individuals?

613
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? So as a community instead of calling police, there

614
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 2: are actually right now there are communities that are experiment

615
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: experimenting with this whereby they don't call police and they're

616
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: sorting out the issue, sitting down and working out, you know,

617
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: and talking about it. You know. And I know I

618
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: don't have all the answers.

619
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: Because I just challenge you with that. You've been a

620
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: police officer long enough to know sometimes you just can't

621
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: sort that. Sometimes people have got to be taken out

622
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: of play for whatever reason.

623
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some things that can't be you know, there's

624
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 2: crimes against children and yeah, I know where you're going

625
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 2: with that, and crimes against a person serious. Yeah, I

626
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: just think there's other ways to deal with it. I

627
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: don't think jails are way. I want to, Like a

628
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: lot of people that are incarcerated right now, have what

629
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: they're suffering from mental health issues and former addictions, and

630
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: probably as a result of their mental health issue that

631
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 2: is not getting properly treated prior to being imprisoned and

632
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: whilst they're being incarcerated. So you go again, prison is

633
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 2: not a place for a rehabilitation. There's other ways to

634
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 2: deal with it. Yeah, I just don't have all the

635
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: answers right now, but I'm working on it. That'll be

636
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: the next book.

637
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: Okay, what what inspired this book? Your success to your

638
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: first book? Multi award winning author. Yeah, that's what I'm

639
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: going to call you from there off. You're just going

640
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 1: to have to wear it to take the shame award

641
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: winning author we don't like big note. Yeah, that's what

642
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: I mean, shame.

643
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 2: What prompted me to write this?

644
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 3: So?

645
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: I used to follow this account holder on Twitter prior

646
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: to becoming ex dB police have over and they were

647
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: really brutally honest with the stuff that they were tweeting,

648
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: and some of the stuff was triggering, and then I

649
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: done follow. Then follow become a pattern behavior, and then

650
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: I reached out to him and slid into the d

651
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: MS and I didn't know I just said, would you

652
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 2: want to meet up? I would love to have a

653
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: and obviously to myself and they they will follow me

654
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: as well. And so that person met up with me

655
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: and they're one of the contributors in the anthology as well,

656
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: and I just let them. We met at a safe

657
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: place that was safe for them. And they're a former

658
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 2: wife of a copper, a police officer who had over

659
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 2: seventy five charters against him. Yeah, who was subjected to

660
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: a lot of brutality and harm and torture. And you know,

661
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: like I like, this person told me the whole story,

662
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: but I've only written you know, portion of it, a

663
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 2: portion of it.

664
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

665
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: And then I and then I just was this person

666
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 2: was talking. I said, oh, if I did an anthology, yeah,

667
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 2: you prepared to tell your story, and this person said yes.

668
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: And then so I just rang up my publishers and said,

669
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: I have got no idea for another book, because you

670
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: never want to be that one that does it like

671
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: one book wonder.

672
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you want to try and get that

673
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 1: can book out. Yeah, I've written two books christ otherwise

674
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: I would have been embarrassed.

675
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 2: Put on your mate, I've got a third one and

676
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: the fourth No, no, I don't have it. I mean

677
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: it's in my head and written yet. Yeah, okay, we'll

678
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: started the fourth one. But now I've got an idea

679
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: for the third one. Yeah, I'm just waiting to hear.

680
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: But they generally start off as an idea, don't they,

681
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: And then it's got.

682
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: To yeah, what's your process?

683
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: Because well, when when I left the Cops in dramatic

684
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: and controversial circumstances, yeah, that's that's what I said. Fucking hell,

685
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: I thought I want to set the record straight because

686
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: there was a lot of narrative been said and a

687
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: lot of things that were being said that weren't true.

688
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: So that that inspired the first book, And once I started,

689
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: it was cathartic for me too, I felt, Yeah, after that,

690
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: it was pretty pretty heavy going for me. This was

691
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: a job I loved, I was passionate about, and it

692
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: was taken away overnight. So what am I going to do?

693
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: The book was good for me, it went well, and

694
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: on the back of that, I were and I did

695
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: the book with a person that I've worked closely with.

696
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: He used to be a crime reporter, Dan Box, so

697
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: it worked well together, you know Dan. Yeah, he wrote

698
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: Bearable the book too, you know. He and he did

699
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: a podcast on it, so he understood where I'm coming from,

700
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 1: and so did did that and then we thought, okay,

701
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: what have you got to say next? And I thought, well,

702
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: with Badness will tell people what what creates badness? Where

703
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: does it evil work? And sort of take a deep,

704
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: dark dip into that.

705
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 2: People like reading about that misery loves company, which we

706
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 2: won't mean you can so well.

707
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: Am I company and your misery or vice versa. I'm

708
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: very happy, Okay, I'm.

709
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. People love reading about well, it takes them away

710
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: from their dramas or what's happening in their lives.

711
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose like, yeah, I'm doing this true crime podcast,

712
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: and what's what's that about? People are fascinated by crime,

713
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: and I get us at time and time again, what

714
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: is it about? I think people don't generally, people don't

715
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 1: get to see the side of the world that cops

716
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: see and that side of the world, and so I

717
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: think they're interested in it, and that's why I think

718
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: there's an obsession with it. So yeah, but yeah, I

719
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: like storytelling. You say your people like storytelling. I like storytelling,

720
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: and I see having a podcast like this is almost

721
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: like telling a story or.

722
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: For the root listeners again that you and I both

723
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: we know what we can and can't say. We know

724
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: how to cover our asses, you know, And yeah, you

725
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: know what I mean because I've worked on that side.

726
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I don't want I don't know you, but

727
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to go to court again. If I

728
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: never set foot in another court for the rest of

729
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: my life, I'd be happy because I hated court. I

730
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: didn't it was a necessary evil. When I was in

731
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: the cops and there's a homicide detective, I spent a

732
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: hell of a lot of time in the court, and

733
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: then as a defendant, I spent a hell of a

734
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: lot of time in the court. And if I never

735
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 1: see another court again, I'll be a happy man. Somehow,

736
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to work. I suspect I

737
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: will be in court again at some stage, but yeah,

738
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: it's an intimidating environment. I'm hoping by having you on

739
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: the podcast and talking and just having a yarn like

740
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 1: we have, people get an understanding of the issues because

741
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: you've brought up some things, and you know, I think

742
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: I know my stuff around the world that you live in,

743
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: but it's a different perspective. If you'll walk those footsteps

744
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: and yeah, I can only imagine how hard it was. Well,

745
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: I can't imagine going in the cops being discriminated because

746
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: of your race, because of your sex, and a cultural discrimination.

747
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: Whether people went the way own it or not, there

748
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: would be what's why we got a woman in the cops,

749
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: an aboriginal woman like it would have been hard for you.

750
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 1: The fact that you used to turn up for work

751
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: an hour before your shift started because you wanted to

752
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: show people, look, I'm here, I'm worthwhile. That made me sad.

753
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: Well, No, that was a form of rock, a strategy

754
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: to get me there because I had so much anxiety.

755
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: So and I still do this that to the day.

756
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: Like this morning when I flew, I was three hours

757
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 2: before the floor.

758
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: So that's so.

759
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 2: But that was one of my tactics is to get

760
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 2: there before them. And because if I didn't, I was

761
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: ringing up and I had gastrow, you know, and it's

762
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: very contagious.

763
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can't come in but that that you

764
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: hated going to work that much, so you're you're going

765
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: in early just to make sure you get in there.

766
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, and munchholes. Now I was somewhat okay.

767
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: You're injured a few times in the cops as well.

768
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: What was the story there? What happened there?

769
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: Ohracing people and you know, do me out and yeah,

770
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 2: what what is you talking about.

771
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 3: To tell us about the chase?

772
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: People love chase? Story about the chase? Did you catch them? Yes,

773
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: such a but you injured? Injured in my knee diving

774
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: tackle or just grabbing around the collin.

775
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: No, he was hiding in a ben sorry, and the

776
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: dog has come out and got him, okay. And that's

777
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: the thing, like if anything, like prior to during the place,

778
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: I'd done a lot of stupid things, and I was

779
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 2: in foot chases for police, being chased by croppers. So

780
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: when I was a cop, I was going where where

781
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: would I hide? So that's why I always caught him.

782
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, I did a lot of shitty things though,

783
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: Like I don't like I'm sitting here laughing, but seriously,

784
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: it's not funny.

785
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, I don't think you should look back and

786
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: be too hard on yourself. It's a culture and it takes. Yeah,

787
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: it's so hard to stand up to a culture of

788
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 1: an organization like the police. It's powerful. It's to push back,

789
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: and I feel sorry for some people that come unstuck

790
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: in the police that yeah, they didn't have the strength

791
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: to stand up.

792
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just want to I'm not sorry another

793
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 2: a trigger war, but this is how much our lives

794
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 2: don't matter. And what I want people to get out

795
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 2: of Black and Blue, for example, is that if cops

796
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 2: can treat one of their own, not that, how the

797
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: fuck dore they treat my people out in the community

798
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 2: where you can only imagine, Right, But when I wasn't

799
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: a job, a young Aboriginal copper who just come out

800
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 2: of the academy committed suicide, nothing, no one heard about that,

801
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: there's no media about that. And when a white copper

802
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: committed suicide at the police station, headline headlines, front page.

803
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: Is that you put that down to what we talked

804
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: about before, that people don't care.

805
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: Lives don't matter, even in uniform. Yeah, their lives don't matter.

806
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: And like we know, we know that police and other

807
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: cast rel agents and government officials, government companies and you know,

808
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: welfare and all that partner human services, they have a

809
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: quota to meet. They've got to they have to employ

810
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: diverse people, people from minority groups, Aberta and torrestraight on

811
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: the people. So we know we're just a number to them.

812
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: But once we're not looked after and they don't give

813
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 2: a shit if we leave.

814
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I'd like to find the solutions, solutions

815
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: to problems. I think it would be beneficial if you

816
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: could have more minority groups in there, being Aboriginal, Fustraight

817
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: Islanders in the police. It has to be very official.

818
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: Police should be representing the community that they're policing in,

819
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: and the community is not just white men. But I wouldn't.

820
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to fix policing. It's never going to

821
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: be fixed. In my opinion. It's never going to get better.

822
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: No amount of training it's going to make it better.

823
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 2: They're still going to target my people.

824
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: I find that I'm not disagreeing. I just find it

825
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: sad that.

826
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: I understand everyone has different views and opinions, and that's

827
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: my one. There's no fixing it. Okay, there's no such

828
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 2: thing as a good curb. I mean, you know that's

829
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: I thought I was a good curb. I wasn't.

830
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 3: I will see I.

831
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: Again and the good parties that we can have different views.

832
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: I saw, I saw a lot of good cops, good cops,

833
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: and they're still in there now. They're smarter ones and

834
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: more ethical and everything else.

835
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 2: And well, I think I'm going to quote my oldest

836
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 2: daughter here, who moderated my book Clatch, and we did

837
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: a panel with the contributors and the contributors, and my

838
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 2: daughter said, probably the good cops was the one the

839
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: lazy ones that did all because they weren't incriminating people

840
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: and putting them, entering people into the justice system.

841
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: We talked off off Mike about lazy cops. That's my

842
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: bane of existence. When I was in the cops, they

843
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: used to give me the ships that they get paid

844
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: and people would say that they work hard. I saw

845
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: some people that just didn't work.

846
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 2: But I saw a lot of coppers, like sergeants and

847
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 2: that when we're doing night shift, camping out behind it asking,

848
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: he's sleeping back, sleeping, fucking and we're like tip tiling

849
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: around him.

850
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: It was his Coby house, he was training, his caby house.

851
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: Let him, let him, let him sleep.

852
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: And then when I was a recruit, and I've written

853
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: about it in Black and Blue, I worked with one

854
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: of the old boys who refused to let anyone drive

855
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: and he slept. He slept during the shift and we

856
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 2: parked on the highway under the bridge and he's in

857
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: a driver suit. So he went back and he had

858
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 2: a snooze for a couple of hours, and I was

859
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 2: just sitting in the passenger seat, just looking around to

860
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: change all the stolen cars can pass.

861
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I'm probably not starlin.

862
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 2: I'm just all the it's not stealing anyway, it's borring.

863
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: And that's another look.

864
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, no you go.

865
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 3: Well I thought it was.

866
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: I'm given up. Okay, no, I I know what you're

867
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: saying with the police, and you need the police. That's

868
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: my my position. You need the police, Okay, don't know. Okay,

869
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: we need it, but I think we've gotta we've gotta

870
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: stay try and stay postic.

871
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: Well I or do you need them?

872
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: Well, I don't need them, now.

873
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: Need them?

874
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: I know I do. Cool police, Okay, this is this

875
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: is my view again, what do you want?

876
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 3: This is my This is cool police.

877
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: Really, I would be hard pressed they probably hang up

878
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: if I did. This is what I think policing should be.

879
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: So I'll run this past. We're going to try and

880
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: try and bring some value to it or some something

881
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: that policing should be. I think police should represent the community.

882
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: So if the community you know where we try to

883
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: increase the arrest rates or you've got the charts that

884
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: you're trying to meet and all this. What should the

885
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: police should be judged on? Is the community happy with

886
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: the service they provide. I think that should be the simplest,

887
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: simplest thing to put across. So you've got a community

888
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: you don't want police, but let's just say in the

889
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: world there's police. If you're living in the community and

890
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: the community are happy with the way the police are

891
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: policing the community, do you think then the police have

892
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: done their job.

893
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: I'm never going to agree. Sorry, it doesn't matter. You

894
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: can put but you could fucking sprinkle you call one

895
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousand, you call.

896
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: It fairy bread.

897
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 2: I like fairy bread, so sprinkles much. But I ain't

898
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: going to change my opinion on it because I just

899
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 2: know the harm that it does to my people. Okay,

900
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: all right, not just my people, but people who are minority, black, black,

901
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: and brown people, people from the LGBTQ plus community, you know,

902
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: trans people, you know, traded with so much disrespect, you

903
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 2: know what I mean? And I still can't agree. Sorry,

904
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 2: I can't.

905
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 3: Can we can we edit? Can we edit that?

906
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: We smart. No, I'm jaking.

907
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: I'm jaking.

908
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: No, I want you, I can't.

909
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: I just see so much harm. And the contributors like

910
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: their experiences. And since I've written when Cops Are Criminals,

911
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 2: have had multiple, many, many emails, you know, people want

912
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 2: to tell me their experiences and you know, and I

913
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: want to call everyone back and email them back, but

914
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: I've just been really busy at the minute, you know,

915
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 2: And I feel like this should be edition one, you know,

916
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: like we could go on for days, and like almost

917
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: every week it's in the papers something that you know,

918
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 2: And yeah, mainstream media will always say wilst off duty

919
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: and off judy copper, who gives a fuck? If there's

920
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 2: no such things off duty? And you know that, right,

921
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: no such thing. Yeah, I think if a paramatic or nurse,

922
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 2: there's no such things off If.

923
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: You if you've given the power of being a police officer,

924
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 1: you've got to conduct yourself in the way whether you're

925
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: on duty off duty, it doesn't matter you. Yeah.

926
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 2: And also they train you to teach treat people like

927
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: it's your family member, how you you would expect your

928
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: family members to be treated? Are they killing their their

929
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: family members? Sad? All right?

930
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to break you don't try.

931
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not working in again, but I don't have

932
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 2: all the answers.

933
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: But no, And look, the thing that I'm really proud

934
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: of what we do on the podcast here. I want

935
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,399
Speaker 1: people to form their own view. We've had we've had

936
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,959
Speaker 1: had to chat people people here where you come from.

937
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: The shout out to your books if you want to

938
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 1: get a more in depth understanding of where you're coming

939
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: from and what you're about. But I respect your opinion.

940
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: That's You're entitled to your opinion. You've been there, you've

941
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: done that, and yeah, so I've seen it all, so

942
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: I'm sure you.

943
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: Have to sorry bringing it down with me. Mate, were

944
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 2: both on a court.

945
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm just depressed now. They're not going to lock me

946
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: up again, are they? I don't want to go the court. Look,

947
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: it's been a real pleasure. As I said at the start,

948
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: I've wanted to meet you for a very very long

949
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: time when I heard about what you what you're doing,

950
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: and I've been looking out for the opportunity. So it's

951
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: great to meet you and you haven't disappointed, and I've

952
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 1: really enjoyed our chat. Pleasure. Well, Veronica's are feeling certainly

953
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,720
Speaker 1: run deep. I couldn't convince it to say anything positive

954
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: about her experience in the in the police, but I

955
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: think it's important here on I Catch Killers that we

956
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: allowed people of platform to have this, and I think

957
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: it's interesting to get a view of an Indigenous lady

958
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: in the police force and the impact it had on her.

959
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,439
Speaker 1: I find her an interesting woman, and I think she's

960
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 1: a courageous woman. She calls things the way she sees it,

961
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: and everyone's entitled to an opinion, and Veronica's shared that

962
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: opinion with us, so I hope you enjoyed it.