WEBVTT - Have the techno-libertarians taken over?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM. In

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<v Speaker 1>the nineteen nineties, a small group of men in Silicon

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<v Speaker 1>Valley imagined a world without governments or rules, a world

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<v Speaker 1>run by code. They called themselves the cipher Punks, and

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<v Speaker 1>they believe technology could replace politics entirely. Those ideas didn't

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<v Speaker 1>stay online. They shaped the culture of the tech industry,

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<v Speaker 1>which in turn has shaped Western civilization itself, and the

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<v Speaker 1>billionaires behind it all are now trying to make democracy

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<v Speaker 1>in their image. Today writer and contributed to the monthly

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<v Speaker 1>Almo Keep on how Silicon Valley's most dangerous philosophy escaped

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet and entered the real world. It's Saturday, January.

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<v Speaker 1>Three millions of Americans on a personal computer.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're one of them, you can now glimpse the future.

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<v Speaker 3>With nothing more than.

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<v Speaker 2>A modem, a phone line and a few dollars, everybody

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<v Speaker 2>can have their own homepage. Companies are there the latest information.

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<v Speaker 2>It's wild, what's going on. It sounds pretty grand, but

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<v Speaker 2>it all comes down to computers communicating, and in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>that's already happening on something called the Internet that anyone now.

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<v Speaker 1>I take us back to the nineties, to this strange

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<v Speaker 1>corner of the Internet called cipher punks. Who were they

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<v Speaker 1>and what did they actually believe they were building?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, if we go all the way back, it's a

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<v Speaker 3>really quite obscure bunch of people who just had a

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<v Speaker 3>private mailing list, and this was confined to a small

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<v Speaker 3>number of Bay Area software engineers and mathematicians pretty much

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<v Speaker 3>exclusively dudes in the early nineties.

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<v Speaker 2>Encryption particularly is what they were very very.

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<v Speaker 3>Passionate about and treating it as essentially like the human

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<v Speaker 3>rights to privacy from the government being able to see

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<v Speaker 3>what we're doing. It was a very libertarian bent to

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<v Speaker 3>their ways of thinking, which is the government can stay

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<v Speaker 3>completely out of every aspect of our lives.

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<v Speaker 2>And then they.

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<v Speaker 3>Discussed a lot of what became very influential ideas.

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<v Speaker 2>Connected to encryption.

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<v Speaker 3>So being able to write programs that would stop your

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<v Speaker 3>telecommunications company from being able to intercept your email and

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<v Speaker 3>read it. If there was pretty good encryption that no

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<v Speaker 3>one could crack them, that was good enough. So this

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<v Speaker 3>was like a really big thing for people to be

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<v Speaker 3>able to feel secure online with our information being privately held,

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<v Speaker 3>which is where the irony of when we come to today,

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<v Speaker 3>where we have like willingly brought into this surveillance culture

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<v Speaker 3>that has been built around us by like the descendants

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<v Speaker 3>of those people who've been working over the last twenty

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<v Speaker 3>years in Silicon Valley. Their nightmare would have been that

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<v Speaker 3>you could see what they're doing all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of people were drawn to these communities and

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<v Speaker 1>how did their politics shape early Internet culture?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, kind of on the fringes.

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<v Speaker 3>They were no doubt extremely intelligent, Like these are people

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<v Speaker 3>with like you know, PhDs in maths and physics, and

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<v Speaker 3>they are in those ways incredibly intelligent, but also bred

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<v Speaker 3>this real contempt of an outsider mentality where they sort

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<v Speaker 3>of self reinforce this idea that they are so much

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<v Speaker 3>smarter than everybody else.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybody else is so behind on this.

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<v Speaker 3>If you don't do what we say, all of your

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<v Speaker 3>rights will be taken away from you. Everybody is a

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<v Speaker 3>sheep who's blind to what's going on. So it attracted

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<v Speaker 3>people who were on the fringes of society who wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to live there. They wanted to be there, they didn't

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<v Speaker 3>want to be a part of mainstream society. So there

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<v Speaker 3>was always a very strong and shared outside of mentality,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, you had to be invited into the group,

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<v Speaker 3>and the meetups where people met in real life were

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<v Speaker 3>like quite secretive about where they were going to be held,

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<v Speaker 3>and it was quite a coveted space to be admitted

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<v Speaker 3>into because you know, you had to provide mathematical proofs,

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<v Speaker 3>you had to share your work, you had to be

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<v Speaker 3>assessed by your peers as you know, brilliant enough to

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<v Speaker 3>be part of it. So it attracted a certain kind

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<v Speaker 3>of person who did not care for social norms really

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<v Speaker 3>of any kind.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about the way they viewed the very idea

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<v Speaker 1>of government.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is the main obsession of engineering thinking. It's like,

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<v Speaker 3>the only way for something to be valuable is for

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<v Speaker 3>it to be efficient. That is how you program, That

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<v Speaker 3>is how code works. Does this efficiently execute this command?

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<v Speaker 2>When I build this branch?

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<v Speaker 3>Is that the most mathematically sound all of those things,

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<v Speaker 3>those are rules based systems that.

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<v Speaker 2>Either are right or wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>And if you then try and transpose that idea onto society,

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<v Speaker 3>you will slowly come to realize why we had developed

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<v Speaker 3>the enormous number of rules that we have. It's a

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<v Speaker 3>not pro personally loved living in a world of complexity.

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<v Speaker 3>It's because the world is complex, because we're complex, and

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<v Speaker 3>there's so many of us. But libertarianism again and again,

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<v Speaker 3>it's like, if we just can start our own society

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<v Speaker 3>where all the government does is make sure that no

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<v Speaker 3>one can kill anybody or steal anybody's stuff, those are

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<v Speaker 3>the only two rules, then everything else will just fall

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<v Speaker 3>into place because no one will be scared of those

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<v Speaker 3>things happening to them, and so everything else will just

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<v Speaker 3>figure it out ourselves. In some ways, it's this kind

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<v Speaker 3>of utopian idea, but it's also incredibly naive.

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<v Speaker 1>And at what point do their early ideas around the

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<v Speaker 1>dream of total privacy of perfect efficiency start to become

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<v Speaker 1>the DNA of the tech industry as we know it today.

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<v Speaker 3>So when social networks first emerged, you know, a social

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<v Speaker 3>network is what we came to call it, but that's

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<v Speaker 3>something that was revolving around software would end up involving

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<v Speaker 3>billions of people just as an everyday part of life

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<v Speaker 3>that everybody became just completely normalized too. I think that

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<v Speaker 3>that's when it went to another level of those corporations

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<v Speaker 3>becoming so valuable to investors. The bigger they got, the

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<v Speaker 3>more government wanted to regulate them, the more influence they.

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<v Speaker 2>Wanted to have.

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<v Speaker 3>So you know, you saw Facebook buying up media companies

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<v Speaker 3>like the tech industry moving into trying to take over

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<v Speaker 3>the media purely is about being able to influence policy

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<v Speaker 3>decision making that isn't going to impede their efficiency, isn't

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<v Speaker 3>going to impede their continued growth, even if they are

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<v Speaker 3>like trampling on all of our privacy rights and consumer

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<v Speaker 3>rights on the way to doing that.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up how Silicon Valley's obsession with efficiency became a

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<v Speaker 1>weapon against democracy, You draw a line from the Cipher

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<v Speaker 1>punks to figures like Julian Osange, Peter Thiel, and eventually

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<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk. What connects them all?

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<v Speaker 3>I think that you know, WikiLeaks would be probably a

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<v Speaker 3>bit a ghast to think that they share DNA with

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<v Speaker 3>Elon Musk, but they do because their project is the same,

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<v Speaker 3>like these beliefs are we need to topple existing structures

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<v Speaker 3>because these existing structures just don't work.

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<v Speaker 2>Look at it all, look at how much.

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<v Speaker 3>War is going on, look at all of this political corruption,

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<v Speaker 3>and then the Emo muskway of looking at the world,

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<v Speaker 3>it's like, well, you could just be saving so much

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<v Speaker 3>more money if you didn't have all these public servants,

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<v Speaker 3>which is a whole different way of having a dismantling

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<v Speaker 3>of government, but it's also the belief that the way

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<v Speaker 3>that things are being done is not working.

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<v Speaker 4>The Trump administration has tapped Palenteer, the data mining company

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<v Speaker 4>founded by the billionaire tech investor Peter Tiel, to compile

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<v Speaker 4>data on people in the United States for a master database,

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<v Speaker 4>including a new thirty million dollar contract with Ice to

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<v Speaker 4>provide near real time visibility into migrant movements.

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<v Speaker 2>As it sees.

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<v Speaker 3>Peter til then is even beyond the right where he

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<v Speaker 3>very infamously has said that he doesn't believe that democracy

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<v Speaker 3>is compatible with capitalism, capitalism being the thing we need

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<v Speaker 3>to preserve, not democracy. So he is such a hypercapitalist

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<v Speaker 3>that he doesn't see any problem with essentially a fascist

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<v Speaker 3>regime controlling people because they can't be trusted to make

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<v Speaker 3>democratic decisions in their own best interests.

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<v Speaker 5>There is a lot in this runaway science technology that's

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<v Speaker 5>pushing us towards something like armageddon. And then there is

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<v Speaker 5>the natural pushback on this is we will avoid armageddon

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<v Speaker 5>by having a one world stage.

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<v Speaker 3>And Peter Tiel has led directly into this more recently,

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<v Speaker 3>which is it's actually a religious belief more than it

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<v Speaker 3>is a political project. It's like he is going and

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<v Speaker 3>delivering lectures about the Antichrist is coming.

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<v Speaker 6>The way the Antichrist would take over the world is

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<v Speaker 6>you talk about armageddon NonStop, you talk about existential risk NonStop,

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<v Speaker 6>and this is what you need to regulate.

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<v Speaker 3>The Antichrist is going to be this person who stands

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<v Speaker 3>in the way of technological adoption that will accelerate us

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<v Speaker 3>past this present that we've been stagnated, according to him

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<v Speaker 3>for decades.

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<v Speaker 2>So these are ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>When Masque launched his Department of Government Efficiency, we saw

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<v Speaker 1>a real world experiment in technolo libertarian politics. What did

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<v Speaker 1>it look like?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it just went great, didn't it. Would you do

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<v Speaker 2>doge again? Knowing what you know now?

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<v Speaker 7>I mean no, I don't think so. I mean the

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<v Speaker 7>thing is, I think instead of doing doorge, I would

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<v Speaker 7>have basically worked in my companies essentially, so and the

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<v Speaker 7>cars they wouldn't have been burning the cars.

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<v Speaker 3>This is again where this idea of efficiency is the

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<v Speaker 3>only measure by which something is of value to society.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a very well known phenomenon called engineer's disease, which

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<v Speaker 3>is when people who work in these fields where they

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<v Speaker 3>are phenomenally good at solving equations, they're phenomenally good at

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<v Speaker 3>writing software. They've become convinced that they will therefore be

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<v Speaker 3>phenomenally good at reorganizing society, or phenomenally good at how

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<v Speaker 3>we should govern ourselves?

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<v Speaker 2>Or how hard can it be to write a novel?

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<v Speaker 3>I will just feed every novel every written into a

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<v Speaker 3>machine and it will spit out the most statistically perfect novel.

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<v Speaker 3>Or why do I need to pay an artist to

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<v Speaker 3>draw cartoons when, like what just happened, Disney is giving

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<v Speaker 3>a billion dollars to open AI, to let open AI

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<v Speaker 3>train everything on every Disney movie ever made. So we're

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<v Speaker 3>going to start seeing films, animated films that are made

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<v Speaker 3>completely untouched by people because this mindset is well, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't understand why you'd pay thousands of people when you

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<v Speaker 3>could just get the program.

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<v Speaker 2>To do it.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the only way that this mindset can calculate if

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<v Speaker 3>something is valuable or not. And if something isn't valuable

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<v Speaker 3>in monetary terms, then it has no other value either.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, mate, how do you think this type of

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<v Speaker 1>politics plays in Australia?

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<v Speaker 8>Man?

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<v Speaker 1>Are we set to see this type of nihilism brought

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<v Speaker 1>here into our politics.

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<v Speaker 3>I think absolutely not. Thankfully, I don't think that any

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<v Speaker 3>of this flies in Australia. We have lived for since,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, federation of the colonial state. In Australia, we

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<v Speaker 3>have had essentially an egalitarian society where we have a

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<v Speaker 3>strong social safety in it.

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<v Speaker 2>And yes, these ideas at the global.

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<v Speaker 3>Level have chipped away at that over the last two decades,

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<v Speaker 3>but it still is something that is held dear to

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<v Speaker 3>Australian society, the idea that you deserve to be able

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<v Speaker 3>to be looked after if you fall into hardship.

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<v Speaker 2>The responsibility of society is to try and not let

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<v Speaker 2>that happen. But when it does, and it does.

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<v Speaker 3>For that to not completely destroy you, that you have

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<v Speaker 3>gotten cancer, like the number of people in America who

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<v Speaker 3>survive a cancer diagnosis only to be bankrupted, even though

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<v Speaker 3>inequality in this country is growing as badly as it

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<v Speaker 3>is anywhere else.

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<v Speaker 2>But also someone who lived for eight years in the.

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<v Speaker 3>United States and coming back to Australia seeing stark difference

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<v Speaker 3>between how much people don't let other people fall into

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<v Speaker 3>society's cracks in quite the same way, I can't see

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<v Speaker 3>those ideas taking hold here. And when Peter Dutton tried

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<v Speaker 3>when he was you know, Tiamot Trump, and I can't

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<v Speaker 3>whoever came up with that.

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<v Speaker 1>I just Amory Makis, who are friend of the show.

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<v Speaker 3>So perfect exactly like trying to do that just didn't

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<v Speaker 3>work here because our culture is not their culture, thankfully,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think that that's something that we absolutely should preserve.

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<v Speaker 3>America is a crazy experiment that sometimes turns wonderful things

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<v Speaker 3>out and other times just destroys people. And I don't

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<v Speaker 3>think it is an experiment that we need to see replicated.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's a fascinating READOLM. Thanks for taking the hit

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<v Speaker 1>and running it for us, and thank you for coming

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<v Speaker 1>on seven am.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh it's my pleasure. Thanks so much for asking me.

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<v Speaker 1>You can read my keep's essay Barbarians inside the Gate

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<v Speaker 1>at the monthly dot com that are you or in

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<v Speaker 1>the summer edition of the magazine. Before we go, we

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<v Speaker 1>have some big news and I'm joined by my co

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<v Speaker 1>host Ruby Jones to tell me all about it.

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<v Speaker 8>Hey Ruby, Hey Daniel, thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Always a pleasure. So do you want to share your

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<v Speaker 1>news with us?

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<v Speaker 8>So I am about to take some time off from

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<v Speaker 8>seven am just a few months because I'm going over

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<v Speaker 8>to the ABC to Four Corners to report out a

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<v Speaker 8>story for them, and I'm pretty excited.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we're excited for you because that is thrilling news.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that you love long form reporting and having

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<v Speaker 1>the time to sink yourself into a story. What can

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<v Speaker 1>you tell us about your plans?

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<v Speaker 8>So I'm leaving the show now. Things are already underway

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<v Speaker 8>at Four Corners. I'm getting pretty deep into it, actually,

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<v Speaker 8>and I'll be back in March when I'll be able

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<v Speaker 8>to tell you about everything that I've been working on

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<v Speaker 8>and share some of the investigative leads that I've hopefully

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<v Speaker 8>uncovered by them.

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<v Speaker 1>And in the meantime, I'll be sharing hosting duties and

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<v Speaker 1>we'll have more to announce about that soon. But to

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<v Speaker 1>celebrate Ruby, we decided that next week we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>bring you some of the most interesting episodes Ruby made

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<v Speaker 1>over the past year, so you can get a big

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<v Speaker 1>dose of her before she leaves for Four Corners duties.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be back on January twelfth with regular programming, new

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<v Speaker 1>original episodes covering all the bigger stories Ruby, good luck.

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<v Speaker 8>Thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll let you know how it goes, and we'll be

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<v Speaker 1>back next week with fresh episodes, see you then,