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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: James Kirby, the World editor at The Australian. Welcome aboard everybody. Now,

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Speaker 1: do you think that you should have a self managed

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Speaker 1: super fun Maybe you have a self managed super fund?

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's worth the effort? Or alternatively, if

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Speaker 1: you had won, would you be better off? Would you

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Speaker 1: be a more successful investor? I've had a self managed

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Speaker 1: super fund for about twenty years, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: as much as my guest today, it's Julie Dolan. She's

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Speaker 1: fed up SMSF, self managed super funds and the state

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Speaker 1: planning at KPMG. Hi, Julia, how are you?

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Speaker 2: Hi? Good? Thanks Jones?

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Speaker 1: How are you good? Thank you? Nice to have you on.

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Speaker 1: It's great to have someone actually with a helicopter view

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Speaker 1: of this area. It's the sort of two lines to it.

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Speaker 1: I mean as a journalist I watch it in two ways.

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Speaker 1: I watch it like as a sector is it getting bigger?

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Speaker 1: Is it getting smaller? Or are the trends et cetera?

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Speaker 1: And then I watch it as an investor does it

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Speaker 1: still make sense for me individually to have one? And

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Speaker 1: is it going well enough? And have I got it

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Speaker 1: structured in the correct fashion. But like one of the things,

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Speaker 1: I suppose just just first of all, usefully and this

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Speaker 1: is pure coincidence, don't you know. It wasn't my smart

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Speaker 1: planning or anything. But the new ATO numbers are out

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Speaker 1: about participation if you like on self managed super funds.

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Speaker 1: It's you'll immediately challenge me on this, I'm sure, but

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Speaker 1: it seems to me that the number of super funds

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Speaker 1: in Australia is stuck hard in or around five hundred

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Speaker 1: and six hundred thousand for as long as I can remember.

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Speaker 1: But I believe it's growing, but it seems to be

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Speaker 1: only growing a little bit. What's theual numbers?

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Speaker 2: Actually, yes, James, you must have had you must have

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Speaker 2: had a magical wand on the figures because they actually

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Speaker 2: came out yesterday from the ATO. They come out of supporter. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I planned it all. Yeah, so what would.

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Speaker 2: If you've planned out? So once again, yeah, the growth

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Speaker 2: is the growth is consistent like it's once again, there

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Speaker 2: was another seven three hundred setups in the in during

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Speaker 2: the quarter and there's only in a small number of

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Speaker 2: wind wind ups. But you have to I suppose when

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Speaker 2: I look at it. I look at the legislative landscape

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Speaker 2: and even setting up new funds these days, it's the

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Speaker 2: ATO even most times, most times they're not will give

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Speaker 2: a potential trustee a call and go through to make

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Speaker 2: sure that they are a fit, that they're doing it

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Speaker 2: for the proper reasons. So I don't mind the steady

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Speaker 2: growth because then with all the changes that are happening

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Speaker 2: at the moment, and the ATO being the regulators, there's

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Speaker 2: is a stronger chance that the ones are getting set up,

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Speaker 2: they're getting set up for the right purpose, and so

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Speaker 2: it's maintaining even more so the credibility of the industry

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Speaker 2: that it deserves. So the latest numbers, I've actually got

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Speaker 2: them written here. We're six hundred and sixteen six six

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Speaker 2: one hundred and sixteen thousand, four hundred funds and equipped,

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Speaker 2: and that is made up of eight hundred and ninety

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Speaker 2: six billion dollars. So we're literally just just behind the

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Speaker 2: opera my gv MY super sector as the second largest,

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Speaker 2: So we're definitely a big player.

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Speaker 1: It's always it's always large because the people who have

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Speaker 1: smsfs have more money, of course they do, and just

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Speaker 1: a few other things separately, Investment trends and Vanguard released

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Speaker 1: their report also released their report today that this is

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Speaker 1: the one that triggered my idea to talk to you today.

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Speaker 1: So very briefly, folks, if you're listening about the big picture,

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Speaker 1: over an number of smsfs continues to rise. There's about

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Speaker 1: six hundred and fifteen thousand sms ss across Australia and

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Speaker 1: the average balance is and this is really interesting, right,

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Speaker 1: it's three hundred and thirty thousand dollars, this is what

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Speaker 1: they say. And of people establishing new funds that is

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Speaker 1: the average balance is three hundred. Yeah, and the average

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Speaker 1: age is forty seven. This is and this year. We

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Speaker 1: talk about all the time on the show Julie, how

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Speaker 1: much should you have who have an sms F. I

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Speaker 1: mean you might say how long is a piece of strength?

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: I've had people on the show seriously saying you need

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Speaker 1: a million dollars more typically maybe six seven hundred. I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember what the figure is from the

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Speaker 1: professional associations, but obviously those figures are very low because

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Speaker 1: they want as many people to join as possible. But

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Speaker 1: I think you know money talk. So here's the number

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Speaker 1: of folks for the average person age forty seven who's

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Speaker 1: starting and SMSF At the moment, it's three hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars, Judy, is that is that enough money

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Speaker 1: to start a fund?

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Speaker 2: Do you think, Well, I've got clients. It absolutely depends.

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Speaker 2: I've got clients who are starting it in their twenties

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Speaker 2: because they want to. It's not necessarily to me about

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Speaker 2: the money. Obviously, you do need to do your cost

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Speaker 2: benefit analysis. But at the end of the day, it's

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Speaker 2: the type of person that you are as well. So

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Speaker 2: if you really do want to have control and transparency

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Speaker 2: and you really do want to have the ability to

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Speaker 2: invest accordingly and grow your superinnuation earlier the better.

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Speaker 1: The sooner the better, I suppose. So, yeah, but the

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Speaker 1: sooner the better. You're not going to have three hundred

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Speaker 1: Most people aren't going to have three hundred and thirty thousand,

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Speaker 1: are there.

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Speaker 2: No, it's more the fact of the obviously the age,

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Speaker 2: it's their ability of how much money they have outside.

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Speaker 2: And also we're in a different world too, in the

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Speaker 2: sense that the younger than someone is, it's the more

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Speaker 2: of their the superinnovation of their job. They're super guarantee

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Speaker 2: that's going in so that consistent ability. And also insurances,

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Speaker 2: so if insurances are going to go into the fund,

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Speaker 2: that that can potentially make it a small fund to

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Speaker 2: potentially a very large fund should it triggering it ben occur.

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Speaker 2: And also whatever assets are sit outside. So I don't

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Speaker 2: have a hard and fast rule. You know, obviously you

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Speaker 2: don't start one with a very very small amount, but

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Speaker 2: it does.

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Speaker 1: Is there a rock bottom minimum that you would see?

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Speaker 2: I would probably say that to two hundred two fifty.

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Speaker 2: I'm sort of comfortable with that based on doing analysis

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Speaker 2: that sits outside.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's very interesting now, folks, I find with surf

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Speaker 1: managed super funds. I was probably younger than most people

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Speaker 1: when I did it, but that was because I was

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Speaker 1: writing about it and I thought, you know, you should

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Speaker 1: sort of walk the talk. But I find this in

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Speaker 1: terms of manage super funds. In terms of people thinking

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Speaker 1: about it, the average age is forty seven, which is

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Speaker 1: useful to a point. That's the commencement age. The average age,

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Speaker 1: of course is older, will skew older because by definition,

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Speaker 1: if people start on average at forty seven, then if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, it's older people who have them,

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Speaker 1: and older people are wealthier because they saved for longer.

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Speaker 1: That all makes sense, but Judy, it seems to be

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Speaker 1: the two types of people who kind of think about

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Speaker 1: actively think about self managed super funds, who may not

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Speaker 1: have them as a young person or young young up

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Speaker 1: to the age of forty seven, which are who are thinking, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I could do a lot more, I could

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Speaker 1: have control. Crucially, people will often say I want to

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Speaker 1: put a property in there. I know property. I like property,

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Speaker 1: and my big fund, my Australian super Cibus or whatever.

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Speaker 1: They're not doing that. They can't buy the house around

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Speaker 1: the corner that I want to buy. That's a big

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Speaker 1: distinction for funds. The other thing that happens is on

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Speaker 1: the other side where people have big savings and super

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Speaker 1: where they have I wish we could get a clear

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Speaker 1: number on this, but there is a point in the

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Speaker 1: big super funds be there retail or industry where really

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Speaker 1: they're designed for the average investor, and you're not an

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Speaker 1: average investor anymore. And certainly in many funds you're crosss

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Speaker 1: opsidizing other in terms of the fees you're paying and

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Speaker 1: all that you could be paying much less. Could you

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Speaker 1: explain that to us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it is interesting because even when you look

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Speaker 2: at the statistics on the industry funds, obviously the amounts

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Speaker 2: are a lot smaller and they're an accumulation phase too.

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Speaker 2: When you look at the self managed fund where on

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Speaker 2: it's a very high level of pension drawdown phase and

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Speaker 2: the fund and the money is still increasing. So that's

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Speaker 2: a very important point.

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Speaker 1: Allow yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: So we're in a very heavy drawdown phase. So it

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Speaker 2: once again does come back to the person and their

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Speaker 2: willingness to to have that very clear transparency in control

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Speaker 2: and also to invest in other assets that may not

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Speaker 2: fall within the you know, their prove product listing or

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Speaker 2: structure of their industry fund. And there's there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of reasons that I see people set them up. A

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Speaker 2: lot of them do they do if they're in business.

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Speaker 2: It's part of their structuring in businesses, especially if they've

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Speaker 2: got commercial property.

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Speaker 1: A lot of those. It's another huge thing that if

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Speaker 1: you have a business, you can buy your fund, can

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Speaker 1: buy a property and you can rent from your fund basically,

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Speaker 1: which is such a winner if you have a business.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's that is that is quite common. And then

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Speaker 2: it's it's people coming up to look, there's there's a whole.

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Speaker 2: I call it the life cycle of the self managed fund. There,

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Speaker 2: it's a constantly moving depending on the profile, what members

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Speaker 2: are in, what members are coming in, what are the

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Speaker 2: what are the needs and wishes of those specific members.

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Speaker 2: So it constantly changes and moves. And that's why I

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Speaker 2: love them so much, because it can ebb and flow

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Speaker 2: for a family depending on that specific members investment needs

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Speaker 2: and desires and requirements.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned how having a certain matter of super fund

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Speaker 1: apart from the control, apart from that, you should be

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Speaker 1: paying less in You should be, but you may not

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Speaker 1: be paying less in fees. Depends on how much you

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Speaker 1: have and how you operate, and whether you have loads

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Speaker 1: of bts in there, for instance, and it's just this

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Speaker 1: minimum low touch fund, or whether you're this incredibly diversified

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Speaker 1: fund and your accountant is bamboos of every with your

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Speaker 1: new investments. But then you're going to have higher fees.

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Speaker 1: But what I want to ask you is you mentioned

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Speaker 1: other assets. The obvious one is direct property. Is there

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Speaker 1: other asset classes that I can put into my SMSF

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Speaker 1: that I don't get a big fund?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? The main one is property, definitely, and it may

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Speaker 2: also be investments with related parties around allowable and investments

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Speaker 2: and structures. So without going into too much complexity, it

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Speaker 2: maybe going into lend leverage and ultimately it usually is

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Speaker 2: property but leveraging the superinnoation with a related party to

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Speaker 2: go in in tenants and common to acquire property or

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Speaker 2: into an unrelated trust to do certain things. So there

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Speaker 2: is a subset of different investments that an industry fund

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Speaker 2: won't allow for. And it's also another big thing with

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Speaker 2: self managed funds. It's the timing. It's the timing of

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Speaker 2: when you put your contributions in. It's the timing of

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Speaker 2: when you pay your tax yes point, timing of starting retirement,

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Speaker 2: the timing of making sure the who, when and how

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Speaker 2: of your superinnoation goes to your loved ones. So it's

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Speaker 2: it's also it comes back to that control of making

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Speaker 2: sure that you really are maximizing the life journey of

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Speaker 2: your contributions to retirement, to a state planning and the

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Speaker 2: most affected by for your family. It's very difficult with

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Speaker 2: an industry fund because you just dominate. You're just controlled

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Speaker 2: by forms ben sent out to you and you don't

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Speaker 2: know what's happening behind the scene.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they are designed for that. They are designed

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Speaker 1: for mass engaged there and they work very well on

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Speaker 1: that basis. But they do, but not if you want

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Speaker 1: to do so you're talking about timing, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think another point what timing is in terms of asset

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Speaker 1: allocation and tactical asset allocation. You can decide if you

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Speaker 1: think that the market is overheating, you can reallocate the

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Speaker 1: money out into something else. Likewise, if you think a

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Speaker 1: certain area is undercooked and it's going to come flying back,

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Speaker 1: you can move it around or even the safe spaces

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Speaker 1: of chairs. Right, So the shaar is tanking. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's tanking. The whole world it's tanking. The big super

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Speaker 1: funds are going to be very slow to get around

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Speaker 1: to getting out there, but you can do seconds and

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Speaker 1: you can have true diversification.

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Speaker 2: You can have true diversification where you can go I

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Speaker 2: want I even want cash, I want turned deposits, I

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Speaker 2: want list of securities in these industries, and I want

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Speaker 2: like you can really work with a financial advisor, even

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Speaker 2: depending on how savvy the investor is to to really

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Speaker 2: have that investment strategy that is required for your fund

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Speaker 2: to be that proactive investment strategy that dictates how you

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Speaker 2: are going to invest for your retirement. So it does

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Speaker 2: allow you that control and transparency of those words I

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Speaker 2: keep using, but they're very much the case. You can

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Speaker 2: very much, you know. But there's a flip side. The

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Speaker 2: flip side means that you are required to follow strict

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Speaker 2: rules that are that are handed down by the ATO

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Speaker 2: because they are the regulator. And it is a very

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Speaker 2: very high tax concession environment. So there is you do

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Speaker 2: have to follow a subset of rules and it does

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Speaker 2: take time. It's another it's another entity that needs tax

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Speaker 2: returns to me.

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Speaker 1: The flip side, if I look back at twenty years

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Speaker 1: of having a Serve super fund, is the spinning out

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Speaker 1: forms which seems to get worse worse. It gets worse

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Speaker 1: and worse, and the length and the complexity of these

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Speaker 1: forms get worse and worse. I'm just doing one at

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Speaker 1: the moment. What is it? Oh, this isn't even something

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Speaker 1: I want to do. This is an existing organization which

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Speaker 1: has changed its rules and has said to me I

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Speaker 1: must update my form filling for them. And it's just

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Speaker 1: one asset, you know, it's good for it's worth ah, yes,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't really matter what it is. The point

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Speaker 1: I'm making is that people have to they really have

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Speaker 1: you really have to say, Okay, I take that on board.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to have to do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you put the time into it board. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Have you if I walked into your office and said,

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Speaker 1: how long is it going to take me every year

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Speaker 1: or every month? Have you got a benchmark answer?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's obviously the investing. It depends on how active

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Speaker 2: you want to be as an investor and where you are.

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Speaker 2: So if you the more active you are, obviously the

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Speaker 2: more time it's going to take. Or if you're a

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Speaker 2: set and forget or if you're this part of your

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Speaker 2: portfolio that you set and forget, well it doesn't take

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Speaker 2: too much time. But it's a big thing. Is once

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Speaker 2: again the investment strategy that you need to put your

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Speaker 2: mind to. The ATO doesn't want to see just a

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Speaker 2: standard template. They actually want you to go. As a trustee,

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Speaker 2: I'm different to a member. I have trustees duties. That's

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Speaker 2: a covenant, that's that is required that you must act

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Speaker 2: in the best interest of members, be it yourself in

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Speaker 2: the sense of looking at the investment strategy of the

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Speaker 2: fund and making sure it's in line with the sole

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Speaker 2: purpose of retirement for the members be yourself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's new in this area? Like what has

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Speaker 1: changed SMSFS for there was there was a period obviously

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Speaker 1: where they were front and center of the news for

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Speaker 1: the simple reason that you could put any amount into

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Speaker 1: super in those days it was uncapped. And then on

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Speaker 1: top of that, the whole area was new and it's

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Speaker 1: mushroomed and now it's uh now it's matured or so

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Speaker 1: years in yeah, gentle pace of growth. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: more or less a proxy with the wider population. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: so what is different now than than that period?

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Speaker 2: Definitely maturity. Maturity the industry is absolute, and maturity the

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Speaker 2: industry is actually carved out certain rules that you know,

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Speaker 2: people were potentially maybe taking advantage of that. We're going

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Speaker 2: against the intention of the laws. Political but you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously a different elected, different different government coming through unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: they've wanted to have a look at the rules that

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Speaker 2: sit over there and what can be tweaked, which I

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Speaker 2: would like for that to stop for a little while.

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Speaker 1: Personally, I mean, I mean, in a way, it's in

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Speaker 1: a way it's a it's a live beast, right, I mean, in.

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Speaker 2: A way, it's a huge amount of money.

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Speaker 1: Are we dreaming that they will ever be left alone?

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's part of the past that we have

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Speaker 1: to take on and see if you want to be

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Speaker 1: active with SUPER. Part of that has been across the rules,

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Speaker 1: which not that they're changing, but that they will never

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Speaker 1: stop changing.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's like income tax rules as well. It

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Speaker 2: is just what tax tax changes all the time. But

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Speaker 2: you know, I could talk for hours about the concept

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Speaker 2: where superannuation sits within the landscape of our retirement policy

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Speaker 2: and how much tweaking can get too much because at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, it is one of the pillars,

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Speaker 2: and one of the pillars is government support. One of

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Speaker 2: is self funding through superinnoation, and one of it is

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Speaker 2: assets that sit outside of super. And the government support

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Speaker 2: side is obviously shrinking. The coffers are shrinking, and so

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Speaker 2: it is encouraged. It should be more encouragement to be

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Speaker 2: able to self self serve and self invest and be

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Speaker 2: self sufficient. So changing these rules all the time and

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Speaker 2: cutting the ability to continue to contribute is got to me,

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Speaker 2: is going against this self ability to self you know,

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Speaker 2: fun to your own retirement. So it's a blind line

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Speaker 2: of tweaking.

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Speaker 1: If I said to you, apart from indexation inflation indexation

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Speaker 1: which was built in anyway that all changes of lead,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen any. I haven't seen one encouraging change

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Speaker 1: to super for years. No, they're generally discouraging, am I

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Speaker 1: is that totally great?

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Speaker 2: And it shouldn't be discouraging. It should be encouraging. So

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Speaker 2: we want to save and we want to be able

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Speaker 2: to be self sufficient in retirement because we need to be.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're seeing this even now without cost of

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Speaker 2: living crisis, We're needing to be even more self sufficient

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Speaker 2: moving forward. So I feel like it's a band aid

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Speaker 2: approach consistently on these changes, and even I could once

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Speaker 2: again spend hours talking about the three million dollar proposed change.

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Speaker 2: It's a band aid's there's no logic behind it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well we might deal with that in moments.

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Speaker 1: We might take you for that break. Yes I have,

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Speaker 1: I hope I've come. I've learned how to actually explain

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Speaker 1: this tax in less than thirty seconds.

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Speaker 2: I prepared to because I'd be glad to hear it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah you can. After the break, Hello and welcome

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Speaker 1: back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby,

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Speaker 1: the editor at The Australian. I'm talking to Julie Dolan,

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Speaker 1: who is the head of SMSs and the State Planning. Julie,

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Speaker 1: I've just thought in terms of your job title, they're

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Speaker 1: not supposed to be related to SMSs.

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Speaker 2: And I know I do fad into each other.

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Speaker 1: We are told it sober told the have nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with each other. But there you are with that.

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Speaker 1: I would just leave that for our listeners to ponder. Okay, now,

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Speaker 1: if I've got an SMS and I see that the

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Speaker 1: big funds are knocking out of the park and they're

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Speaker 1: doing ten percent a year, and that's not the case anymore,

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Speaker 1: but there was a year or two where they were

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Speaker 1: doing ten percent a year, or I read you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously you always read about the most successful fund right,

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Speaker 1: so there's always going to be a couple of funds

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Speaker 1: that do great and we paid ess to the ones

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Speaker 1: who are appalling. How do I score myself. I've got

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Speaker 1: an SMSF Why do I score myself? Should I just say, okay,

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Speaker 1: I take a fund see bus are super and I've

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Speaker 1: got to pick them every year? That has the approach.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's so difficult because you're comparing apples to orangers like,

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Speaker 2: unless you're really understanding what the underlying investment methodology is

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Speaker 2: and how active they are versus if it's just set

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Speaker 2: and forget versus if it's active management, then the fee structure,

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Speaker 2: it's it's and then even just trying to, you know,

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Speaker 2: get to the real bottom figures and not just the

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Speaker 2: broadcasted figures, it's it's very difficult. I think with a

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Speaker 2: self managed fund, you need to be comfortable with your

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Speaker 2: own profile. So you need to be comfortable with you

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Speaker 2: as an investor and how much risk you're prepared to take,

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Speaker 2: and then then invest accordingly. Don't try and chase returns

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Speaker 2: because you know, and don't try to look backwards on

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Speaker 2: past performance. We know that that that's not the way

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Speaker 2: to go. So sitting there going this is me as

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Speaker 2: an investor, and me and my timeline towards when I

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Speaker 2: want to retire or whatever your situation is, this is

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Speaker 2: what I'm comfortable with, and based on that profile, you

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Speaker 2: seek competent advice or invest accordingly based on what your

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Speaker 2: comfort level is.

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Speaker 1: Well, is there a rock bottom the turn where you said, look,

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Speaker 1: you'd really want to be doing x percent above at

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Speaker 1: least want.

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Speaker 2: To keep CPI. You want at least you don't want

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Speaker 2: to be going backwards with your dollars, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: You don't want to be sitting at all in cash

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Speaker 2: and going backwards. But some people are some people comfortable

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Speaker 2: with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder how they're comfortable with that.

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Speaker 2: It's a very hard one to do. Every Actually, every

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Speaker 2: fund is different, Every single super fund is different. That's

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Speaker 2: why I love about them in essence, because they're investing

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Speaker 2: accordingly based and it's not only just based on them,

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Speaker 2: it's based on the profile of their family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that even gets even more interesting when the

403
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Speaker 2: kids come in.

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00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 1: Yes, and of course all funds have too. Generally, generally

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Speaker 1: it tends to be two partners, husband and wife or whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a sort of a core unit in super But

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Speaker 1: you can have up to six people in the fund. Now, Yeah,

408
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 1: but what's the average since.

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Speaker 2: It's still dominant, it's still a dominant two member fund. Still,

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Speaker 2: there's there's pros and cons of bringing children into the

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Speaker 2: fund or even prize and cons of having business partners

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Speaker 2: in there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, I won't go down that ali

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Speaker 1: just for the moment, because I wanted to ask you

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Speaker 1: one or two other things, more contemporary issues. So we

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Speaker 1: had a budget recently, and we've had some well's. There's

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Speaker 1: text the main news cross out of the budget, none

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Speaker 1: of which was in the budget per se. But this

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Speaker 1: year is there are tax cuts personal tax cuts across

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Speaker 1: the board. The ones on the upper end are smaller

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Speaker 1: than they were going to be, but there are still

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Speaker 1: tax cuts for everybody, as they like to tell us.

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Speaker 1: Now in terms of Super and tax, the biggest news

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Speaker 1: probably for a long time, is that, apart from inflation

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Speaker 1: indexing as I mentioned, where the amount you can put

426
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Speaker 1: in has increased a little bit, pre tax contributions has

427
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Speaker 1: gone from twenty seven and a half thousand to thirty thousand,

428
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Speaker 1: and the SGC, the compulsory amount that must go into

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Speaker 1: SUPER on your behalf each year goes from a eleven

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00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: to eleven point five percent in July. So we all

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Speaker 1: know that. But the newest thing in tax and super

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Speaker 1: is that, for a long time, being the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, how tax worked in super was once you

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Speaker 1: had more than one point nine her capitac her head

435
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Speaker 1: per remember, then you started to pay tax and it

436
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: was at fifteen percent, and then out of the blue,

437
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: the government has announced a second tax, a new tax,

438
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: a fresh tax. This tax kicks in at three million,

439
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: and once you've more than three million, you pay another

440
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: fifteen percent tax. And this tax is completely different. It's

441
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: based on paper gains and people are furious about this.

442
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: All I want to say to you is, is there

443
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: any reason to think that it's not going to go

444
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: through as planned?

445
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: I'm still keeping my fingers and toes crossed. So where

446
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: we currently stand is obviously they're the Senate to Elect Committee.

447
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: There was a report done back seventeenth of May, and

448
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 2: they supported supported that report to say go through unchanged.

449
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they said. They basically said, it's fine, it's fine. Yeah,

450
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: paper gains, it's fine, not even putting in it.

451
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, even though as an industry we've been fighting hard, fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting,

452
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: even coming to as another solution of doing a deeming rate.

453
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: And so there's been there's been all sorts. So last

454
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: week it went through the Lower House and it actually

455
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: got adjourned a few times because there was an about

456
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: twelve to fifteen MPs really really showing distaste and concern

457
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 2: about a lot of policies, and mainly around the unrealized

458
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: gains and the lack of indexation and the flow on effect.

459
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: There's so many flow on effects. Those two are highlighted,

460
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: but when you actually get into the nitty gritty of

461
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 2: the proposed changes, there's a whole lot of subset of consequences,

462
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: which there's a lot there. And where we currently stand

463
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: now is it's going into Senate to the upper house,

464
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: and we expect that there will be a very strong debate.

465
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: So government's trying to push through it to be legislated

466
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: by thirty June. We've still got another election as well

467
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: that's going to be sitting on the side. So I'm

468
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: praying and hoping that common sense will still prevail even

469
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: though we're getting to the twenty end. I'm being an

470
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: optimist here and I'm sitting out all my energy.

471
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: Right all right, Well, I just don't know. I don't know.

472
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: I don't know how parliament really works. But I suppose that's.

473
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 2: Where we stand, that that's the actual facts right now.

474
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: So there is a distinct possibility that there could be

475
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: some sort of detail understandate that amends this tax. That

476
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: remains a distinct possibility, doesn't it.

477
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: And we've still got a way to go. We do

478
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: have still a way to go.

479
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: So okay, yeah, all right, and so that's uh. With

480
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: that way against smfs and the participation in them, do

481
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: you think difficultes through.

482
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 2: Well, it will definitely affect the funds that are at

483
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: maturity and the ones that have got more than you know,

484
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: obviously the three mil with luck of indexation, will affect

485
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: funds going forward. So that is that is, it's a

486
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: it's a there differently will be didn't That's for sure.

487
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: There'll be a release if it goes through. There'll be

488
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: a strong, a big release of funds, which will which

489
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: will cause issues in its own right in the sense

490
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: of potential full sale of assets which weren't planning to

491
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: be sold and unnecessary transaction. Causes a whole lot of

492
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: stuff that may come out of this. Another big sleeper,

493
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: which I spent a lot of time talking to clients on,

494
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: is not only the proposed div two ninety six tax,

495
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 2: but it's the death benefit tax that sits on top

496
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: of it.

497
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: Just before you tell us about that the two nine six, folks,

498
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: is the three million tax.

499
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: Just just so everyone's sorry, it's I mean accounting nerd there.

500
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: That's all right for all notes. It's just some of us.

501
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: I'll pay to translate a bit. So tell us what

502
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: we wanted to say about the death pack death benefits.

503
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so a lot of clients, so everyone, you know, James,

504
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: you get your own financials and you have part of that.

505
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: You have your member statements, and if you're over sixty

506
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: and you take you can you can access your superinnuation

507
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: without paying any tax as a lump summer a pension,

508
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: beautiful system, beautiful thing. But still on your member statement,

509
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: you would have a tax free and a taxable component

510
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: that's shown there. And basically that tax free amount is

511
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: your after tax money so that you've been able to

512
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 2: put into the fund over the years, and the balance

513
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 2: is all the earnings that it's made and all your

514
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: your super guarantee contributions that it's built out. Now a

515
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,239
Speaker 2: lot of funds, that's quite a big especially for how

516
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: long you know you've been in yours for twenty years, James,

517
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: you may have quite a large taxable component there too.

518
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: So what that means is dependent on who it goes

519
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: on your passing. If it says goes out to ultimately

520
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: goes out to adult financially independent children. There is up

521
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: to seventeen percent tax on that amount.

522
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: Yes, bux, a compustible component is taxed at seventeen percent effectively. Yeah,

523
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: something changed.

524
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: No, it's just the fact that this additional tax with

525
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: in the fund is another tax on top of another

526
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: tax that will potentially it's working through with clients saying

527
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: all right, well you're in this space, now what do

528
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: we do in start to move? Is a hybrid model?

529
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: Well, I guess, I said, because this notion of double tax,

530
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: which will ask you.

531
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: One wels you're alive to take to take money out?

532
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so it's the it's the it's the effective folks.

533
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: Just to clarify in case you're you're not following this,

534
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: and it is. It's super. So it's tricky. But like

535
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: people say, what happens to you if you? If you

536
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,239
Speaker 1: if in terms of inheritance and super is becoming more

537
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: and more correct me band things around here, Julie. Inheritances

538
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: become more important in relation to SUPER. Right, so often

539
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: people will have more on SUPER than anything else except home.

540
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: Correct.

541
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: The taxable component that Julie's talking about, there the believe

542
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: it or not, the little bit that you got a

543
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: tax concession zones over the years, they will tax that

544
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: part when you die in your death benefit and effectively

545
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: works out as seventeen percent. So that's that's what you're

546
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: you're alluding to, Is that right?

547
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? So it's if you're in that category where you've

548
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: got a highest superinnuation balance and you do have a

549
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: high taxable component, and you have potentially this additional tax

550
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: that may apply. It's working through. I work through with

551
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: clients on what is the best structure, what is it?

552
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: What are your potential plan B and c this If

553
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: this tax comes through, do we look to move some

554
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: money out? And if we do, what structure does it

555
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: go into the potentially having like a hybrid model of

556
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: investment vehicles?

557
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I have two more questions through and try and

558
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: make them short. One this thing about having a threshold

559
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: and super extreme is it effectively a cap? I mean

560
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: really basically, would you be a fool to have more

561
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: than three million and super ever under these new rules?

562
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: Oh do you want to put that? Do you want

563
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: to put that question to one side? Put it? What

564
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: did they say a reserve result?

565
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? The way the reels work because you can have

566
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: a really high balance that not have to pay the tax.

567
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: So there's a whole misconception around how it works.

568
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: Well, isn't it also the case that you could leave

569
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: the money in the super system, per se the system,

570
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: and only pay fifteen percent on it rather than the

571
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: bit that success couldn't you have it in the system,

572
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: but you'd only be paying fifteen You wouldn't be paying

573
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: marginal rates or anything.

574
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: Well, no, you'd have to take it out of the system,

575
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: maybe have it in another tax vehicle too, meant to

576
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: keep the rates down.

577
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: You might, But if you did nothing, if you were

578
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: if inertia, then what would happen if it would be taxed?

579
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: Yes, if you had over three million, it's not the

580
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: it's not all the amount over three million, it's what

581
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: your balance is at one July twenty twenty five when

582
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: it comes in. Yes, so f your balance is at

583
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: seven million and it increases just seven and a half,

584
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: it's only that half a million dollars that that's the

585
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: baseline of the calculation. So it's always important to note

586
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: that too. It's not everything over three million. This is

587
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: just a standard cap.

588
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: So keep all that in mind, folks. Should you be

589
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: in the fortuer position to have that amount in super

590
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: and I'm sure many listeners are saying, really, I don't

591
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,719
Speaker 1: have this problem, which you probably don't, but if they

592
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: don't index it for inflation, you'd yeah, how fast it

593
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: comes around. Let me tell you if you think about

594
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: house prices and how much they've moved, well, just just.

595
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: It's not only about that time. Yeah, it's not about that,

596
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: James too. It's just the fact also that it's going

597
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: against the basic tax principles.

598
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: You don't tax paper gains.

599
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's really the heart of the problem here,

600
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: is that there.

601
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we take and we certainly will take that.

602
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: Take that on board. Yeah, okay, we will break and

603
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: we will be back with some great questions designed specifically

604
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: for Julie because I have a couple of the SMSF

605
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: questions which I've collected for her. Okay, back in a moment, Hello,

606
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: and welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. James

607
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: Kirby talking to Julie Dolan from KPMG. Okay, Tracy says,

608
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: my husband and I have a self manager super fund

609
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: and also two daughters and a younger son. What would

610
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: be the positives and negatives of incorporating them into the

611
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: s MSF now that it can have six members. You

612
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: mentioned that briefly.

613
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So the positives are it's obviously bringing the

614
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: power of bringing more money into the one the one area,

615
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: into the one bank account per se or the one

616
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: structure to invest. So you've got you've got the leverage

617
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: of more capital to invest. So that's that's a very

618
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: positive piece. The other piece is education. I like the

619
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: fact that you know your children are on the journey

620
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: with you on educating around how to invest and learning

621
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: what everything around that means. And you know, obviously it's

622
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: a reduction in fees potentially by bringing consolidating the family

623
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: super together, so they'd be the main advantages. The main

624
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: the disadvantages are you are all in it together, so

625
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: there could be they always you know, that could be

626
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 2: cause issues on the family side around disagreements on investing.

627
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: Yes, you're always killing each other. Would be killing each

628
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: other inside in the SMSF meeting too. Maybe that's what

629
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: you're alluding to.

630
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: Also too, it's not to underestimate underestimate the responsibility of

631
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 2: the children having to be directors.

632
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: Yes, of course that's a big one, and I would

633
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: think also we have because this is new, it's not

634
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: being tested. But if you have very old parents who

635
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 1: just want income, and you've got very young, very relatively

636
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: younger adult participants, and they want something entirely different, and

637
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: I think of.

638
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: This whole area of elder abuse that's coming through each abuse.

639
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, which a new corridor if you like our potential

640
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: new corridor to it. Yeah, that's an article for me

641
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: to write some day, Julie your mind, Okay, I think unfortunately,

642
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: just on time we can fish in. One more question.

643
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 1: It's from Mask. After substandard returns over two years, I've

644
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: decided to take over the management of my self managed

645
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: super Fun and I plan I think he means the

646
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: investment allocation. I plan to move about twelve stocks and

647
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: three managed funds to over and flit them into a

648
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: few selected exchange traded funds. Is there anything I should

649
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: be considering before doing this, tax implications, et cetera. Is

650
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: there a recommended way of making a change.

651
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: Yeah?

652
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: So of course everyone loves ETS. Certainly they love its simplicity,

653
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Speaker 1: low fees, and this concept that you can only go

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Speaker 1: so wrong and I can't go any more wrong than

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Speaker 1: anybody else. But and this is never advice, folks. This

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Speaker 1: is information only, but from a universal perspective, when someone

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Speaker 1: has some sort of eureka moment and says, gee, you

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Speaker 1: know my fund is too complicated, I'll slam it all

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Speaker 1: into ETFs, one for the US, one for Australia, you know,

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Speaker 1: one for bonds.

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Speaker 2: What what? What?

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Speaker 1: What's your got reaction to that, Judy.

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Speaker 2: My gut reaction to that is, never do anything for

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Speaker 2: tax reasons. So do it purely if it's a good

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Speaker 2: investment for you. So once again, you know, based on

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, James, if it's getting too complex, if

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00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: the risk is getting a little bit skewed to what

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Speaker 2: you're comfortable with, do it for you based on your

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Speaker 2: investment principles. Don't don't ever do an investment decision for tax,

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Speaker 2: because it's just it's a byproduct.

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Speaker 1: Yes, of course, and that's the point that that's regularly

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Speaker 1: made by advisors across across all investing. You don't do

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Speaker 1: it for tax. Do it, does it makes sense, and

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Speaker 1: then see what the taxes correct? Exactly. Terrific. That's a

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Speaker 1: good way to finish I think, thank you very.

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Speaker 2: Much, thank you, James. I really enjoyed journey on.

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Speaker 1: Show and thank you very much. We haven't we haven't

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Speaker 1: talked much before, we haven't had you on the show before,

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Speaker 1: but it was great. Thank you much very much. We

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Speaker 1: will have you again, lovely to talk. That was Julie Dolan, Folks,

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Speaker 1: head of SMSF and Estate Planning at KPMG. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: didn't get through all the questions because Julie was so

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Speaker 1: interesting and there was so much to talk about there.

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Speaker 1: And I know that we don't do SMSs perhaps as

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Speaker 1: often as we should. It's a great area. I recommend

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Speaker 1: anyone who's an active investor to look at them. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying get one, do one, but certainly check them

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00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: out and see what they suit you. And as I say,

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Speaker 1: I've had one myself for twenty years or so and

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Speaker 1: it's been real education. As you can imagine, through the years,

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Speaker 1: through the GFC, through everything as at COVID and everything else.

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Speaker 1: You are tested, that's for sure at times with them,

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Speaker 1: because you're on your own and you can't just hope

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Speaker 1: that the committee investment committee at a big super fund

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Speaker 1: is getting it right. That's the thing I think that

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Speaker 1: we should all keep in mind. All right, let's have

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Speaker 1: some more questions. The money puzzle at the Australian dot com.

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Speaker 1: Dot au is the email I hope to you soon