1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: From the newsroom and you still. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 2: Come today you Gooday? There, I'm Andrew Buckalo. Listen, it's Friday, 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 2: so I'm not going to do anything heavy. Okay, We're 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 2: gonna have a little bit of fun today. We're going 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: to focus on the interesting stories, starting with this one, 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 2: which is online at news dot com dot au right now. 7 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: It's all about Gray's Anatomy star Ellen Pompeio, talking about 8 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: the reaction she copped when people found out she was 9 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 2: getting paid twenty million dollars a year to star on 10 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: the medical drama. 11 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 3: My manager at the time said something to me that 12 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 3: literally hit me like a brick. He sent or, how 13 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 3: are you ready to be unpopular? I was like, what 14 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 3: do you mean? And he was like, well, I just 15 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 3: don't want you to think that everyone's going to go 16 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 3: in and cheer for you and clap for you and 17 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 3: bow to you and think you're the dopest thing ever, 18 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 3: because there's going to be a lot of people who 19 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 3: are not happy for you. And that had never occurred 20 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 3: to me. 21 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how I react if a friend or 22 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: colleague told me they were getting paid twenty million dollars 23 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,319 Speaker 2: a year. I'll probably make some laying joke like, well, 24 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: the milky bars were on you then, kid. To be honest, 25 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: it's probably not something I'm gonna have to worry about. 26 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: If you're into footy, we've got you covered on news 27 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: dot com dot. 28 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: Au right now. 29 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 2: We've got all the highlights and the low lights from 30 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: last night's AFL and NRL games. But my favorite story 31 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: online right now is about Elon Musk. Now, before you 32 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: start thinking, oh no, not that guy, I don't want 33 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: to hear about him, hear me out. He has opened 34 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: up about his plans to send humans to Mars. He's 35 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: revealed when he thinks there'll be one million humans living 36 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: on the red planet in a self sustaining in city 37 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 2: and guess what, it's actually not that far away. You 38 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: can hear what he's had to say in this episode, 39 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: and we'll be joined by an expert. He'll give her 40 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: an opinion on if Elon can actually make this happen. 41 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: Well. 42 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 2: Elon Musk has made no secret of the fact he 43 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: wants to colonize Mars. He sees it as a way 44 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: to safeguard humanity in case there's some kind of catastrophic 45 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: event here on Earth, and he envisions a future where 46 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: humans are a multiplanetary species. 47 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 4: It is a natural extension of expanding the scope of 48 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 4: scale consciousness. So I think we want to do everything 49 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 4: we can to make sure that Earth is going to 50 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 4: be great for a long time, as long as possible, 51 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 4: and but also allocate a small amount of resources, like 52 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 4: I said, less than one percent of our economy to 53 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 4: extending life beyond Earth and ultimately to other star systems. 54 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: Elon has detailed his plans for Mars and a new 55 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: podcast interview with Ted Cruz here to discuss what he said. 56 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: He's doctor Rebecca Allen, the co director of the Space 57 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 2: Technology and Industry Institute at Swinburn University. 58 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: Gooday, Rebecca, how are you? 59 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 5: I'm well, thank you? 60 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: To start with, why do you think that Elon Musk 61 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,559 Speaker 2: has peaked Mars as a good planet to colonize? 62 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: What makes it more attractive than the other ones? 63 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 5: Well, we know in terms of the rocky planets and 64 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 5: the ingredients it takes to make and sustain life, that 65 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 5: mercury definitely out of it. Too small, way too close 66 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 5: to the Sun. Venus is actually larger, so almost the 67 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 5: same size as Earth, but we know it has this 68 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 5: may get a toxic atmosphere. It's so hot on the 69 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 5: surface it could melt lead, and so that leaves lonely 70 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 5: last Mars, which we do believe through scientific evidence that 71 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 5: at one point potentially had microbial life on the surface. 72 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 6: We know it had vast seas, so we know that 73 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 6: this is a planet that at one point potentially did 74 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 6: support life. 75 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 5: It's not too far away in terms of our Solar 76 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 5: System neighbors, and so it really is a viable target 77 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 5: if we wanted to launch humanity off Earth. 78 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: In the interview with Teed Kurus, a loon was asked 79 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: when he thinks his SPICX company will be able to 80 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: land a human on Mars. 81 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: Let's have a listen to what he had to say. 82 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 7: What year does man first set foot on Mars? 83 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 4: I think the soonest would be twenty nine, twenty nine, Yes, 84 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 4: and I don't think it's more than two to four 85 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 4: US beyond that. 86 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 7: And that's not an unman's that's a human being putting 87 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 7: his foot on the surface. 88 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: Yes, So, doctor Rebecca, how likely do you think it 89 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 2: is that we'll be able to have a human on 90 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: Mars by twenty twenty nine? 91 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 5: Look, I think you know it's a very complex thing. 92 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 5: To send a mission into space. Even getting astronauts into 93 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 5: lower orbit we've seen with the Starliner episode can be 94 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 5: quite dramatic, and so there's a lot of planning and contingencies, 95 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 5: in years and years of work that goes into this. 96 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 5: So we know when it comes to Mars that it's 97 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 5: no secret we've been thinking about sending humans to Mars 98 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 5: for over ten years now. So I won't say that 99 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 5: it's totally unlikely. The question is what is the risk 100 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 5: that's involved with it. I think overcoming the major hurdle 101 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 5: of seeing Starship successfully test, successfully refuel in orbit, and 102 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 5: demonstrate that it can safely carry crew is probably the 103 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 5: biggest hurdle that we see right now. We know that 104 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 5: the Starship spacecraft, it definitely has the raw power in 105 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 5: the engines, a capacity to carry the fuel, but it's 106 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 5: not just about having that spaceship right the journey. We 107 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 5: know even to the Moon, even to low Earth orbit 108 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 5: can be quite dangerous. And so this is why with 109 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 5: the Artemis program, we've seen NASA really map out all 110 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 5: of these in between steps of you know, can we 111 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 5: send the ship that's meant to carry the. 112 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 6: Crew to the Moon, have we seen it? 113 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 5: You know, just be able to test that journey without 114 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 5: any crew, and then we're sending all of these landers 115 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 5: to test the environment, to try to understand it and 116 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 5: characterize it. 117 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 6: Then and only then will. 118 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 5: They accept, you know, that risk to be able to 119 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 5: land crew there, and the landing vehicle still hasn't fully 120 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 5: been developed yet. So if you think about where we 121 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 5: are just with taking people back to the Moon for 122 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 5: a longer term spaceflight, you're going to say, WHOA, Mars 123 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 5: is way past that. 124 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 6: In some ways though, the Moon. 125 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 5: Is actually more extreme because it has no atmosphere and 126 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 5: very very little resources that we could draw on. So 127 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 5: there's you know, a lot of thinking here that in parallel, 128 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 5: you know, you would be using the Moon really as 129 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 5: a space and this testing ground, while at the same 130 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 5: time thinking about the long term the really challenges of 131 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 5: getting starship all the way to Mars, and if we're 132 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 5: getting humans there, I know, you know, the big focus 133 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 5: is getting there. I also want to see them come back, 134 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 5: and I want to see them be like happy and healthy, 135 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 5: and I think there's been a lot of focus on 136 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 5: colonizing Mars and you know, our species long term. You know, 137 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 5: all of this kind of vision, but really as a scientist. 138 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 5: To me, the real value in going to Mars is 139 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 5: not actually necessarily about our species surviving, but about the 140 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,559 Speaker 5: fact that human beings as scientists, can uncover in real 141 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 5: time what robots could never do in tens of years. 142 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 5: So if we want to really, actually really think about 143 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 5: our species and the philosophy the big questions how did 144 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 5: life begin, we actually need human investigators on the surface 145 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 5: of Mars in real time, using you know, their little 146 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 5: copters and rovers to go out and scout and say, ah, 147 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 5: this is an interesting site. Now with our capability and instrumentation, 148 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 5: we're going to go out and analyze this. So I 149 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 5: think the science case to me is more compelling than 150 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 5: the survival of our species. 151 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: How long would it take to get from Earth to Mars. 152 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 5: Well, there are obviously, you know, our planets are dynamic, 153 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 5: they're moving around the Sun, and so there's definitely times 154 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 5: when Mars and Earth are closer together, and there's also 155 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 5: ways of being clever and using gravity to do what 156 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 5: we call these gravity assists. So when we send spacecraft 157 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 5: to the outer Solar System, you know, we see that 158 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 5: it takes years and years for them to get there. 159 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 5: But in part we're being clever because we're not just 160 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 5: burning a bunch of fuel on a small spacecraft. We're 161 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 5: using these gravity assists to gradually get them out there. 162 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 5: So the quickest that we're getting to Mars is under 163 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 5: a year, and then the longest it's going to take 164 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 5: is just over a year. 165 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: In the podcast, Alon touched briefly on the conditions on 166 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: the red planet. 167 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 4: And Mars is a hostile environment. It's you know, it 168 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 4: sometimes gets above zero on a warm summer day near 169 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 4: the equator in mass Really it's quite. 170 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: Cold, doctor Rebecca. Can you tell me more about this 171 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: environment on Mars. What's it like? 172 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 5: So Mars is I always like to use the Goldilocks 173 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 5: and the Three Bears analogy. You know, Venus is too hot, 174 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 5: Earth is just right. Mars is too small, and it 175 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 5: when it was still forming as a planet, it cooled 176 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 5: very quickly. So we know one thing that's fundamental to 177 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 5: Earth is our plate tectonics. This is what allows us, 178 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 5: you know, to have balcanism and that you know, helps 179 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 5: us replenish our atmosphere. Mars doesn't have it at all, 180 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 5: so we know that it's really kind of in this 181 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 5: frozen state. We do know that there are vast quantities 182 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 5: of water below the surface of Mars. Just how far 183 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 5: below the surface and how attainable those are yet to 184 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 5: be determined. We do know that there's water ice at 185 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 5: the poles. Again, how exactly we would access that to 186 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 5: be determined, but we know in terms of looking at 187 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 5: you know, what rocky planets are made out of. Mars 188 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 5: isn't too dissimilar to Earth. So there are the right 189 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 5: ingredients there in terms of thinking about fuel and resources, 190 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 5: getting oxygen. So it is all the ingredients are there. 191 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 5: But I think is important is this waterfall effect. One 192 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 5: major thing goes wrong that affects everything, So our ability 193 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 5: to know how the technology and the capability. We know 194 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 5: the potential is there, but it just hasn't been tested. 195 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 5: And so I think that's really you know, the next phase, 196 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 5: the rovers, the landers, all of the magnificent you know, 197 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 5: orbiting spacecraft around Mars. They've given us all this school 198 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 5: or just data, but it's really just kind of tiny 199 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 5: little clues that are hinting at what is there and 200 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 5: what could be done. 201 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: I'd like to give you a hypothetical. Now, let's say 202 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: that a human gets put on Mars. They have no 203 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: oxygen pack they have no space suit. How long would 204 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: a human last on Mars? And if not very long, 205 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 2: what would they die of? 206 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 5: If they don't have a space suit, They would die 207 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 5: very quickly because the Martian atmosphere, what little atmosphere it 208 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 5: does have, isn't isn't our mix as human beings, we 209 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 5: need the nitrogen oxygen. We need this exact balance of 210 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 5: these molecules to breathe in otherwise we die. So you 211 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 5: would you would exphixiate pretty quickly. Yeah, youre not have 212 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 5: a good time. But then as well, depending on the temperatures. 213 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 5: You know, again, because you have this very thin atmosphere, 214 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 5: which is not the same composition as Earth's, you're getting 215 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 5: bombarded by the radiation that's impacting the planet. Again much 216 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 5: further from the Sun and Earth, so the radiation is weaker. 217 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 5: But that's your kind of long term not good. You know, 218 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 5: you wouldn't be doing well there. And then of course 219 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 5: there's the temperatures. So seeing these extreme temperatures, you know, 220 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 5: we look at oh, you know it's a it's actually 221 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 5: nineteen degrees centigrade right there right now, but it could 222 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 5: very quickly change and plummet or go the other way. 223 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 5: So it's really not necessarily having a correct temperature, it's 224 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 5: how stable those temperatures are. We know that we need stability, 225 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 5: and we know that the stability and temperature is actually 226 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 5: very critical for having liquid water on the surface of planets. 227 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 5: Does Mars have liquid water on the surface, Not that 228 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 5: I've seen. 229 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: Stick arounding j justin Mima, we'll hear about Alon's plans 230 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: to build a self sustaining city on Mars. 231 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: Welcome back. 232 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: You're listening to my interview with doctor Rebecca Allen about 233 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 2: some recent comments made by Elon Musk about his plans 234 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 2: to send humans to Mars. 235 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: Back to the. 236 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: Chat, Elon told Ted Cruz that the first priority is 237 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: to build a self sustaining city on Mars. 238 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 4: The key threshold is when that city can continue to grow, 239 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 4: continue to prosper even when the supply ships from Earth 240 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 4: stop coming. At that point, even if something would happen 241 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 4: on Earth, it might might It might not be World 242 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 4: War three, but it might be that. 243 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 7: A bad virus. 244 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, it might not be anything for those things. It's like, 245 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 4: let's say civilization, you could die with a bang or 246 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 4: a whimper. It maybe that civilization dies with a whimper 247 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 4: rather than a bang or and simply loses the ability 248 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 4: to send ships to Mars. But so you absoenly need 249 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 4: Mars to become self sustaining and be able to grow 250 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 4: by itself before the recupply ships from Earth stopped coming. 251 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 4: That that is the critical a civilizational threshold beyond which 252 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 4: the probable last span of civilization is much greater. 253 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: Now, when can that realistically happen? Well, Elon thinks it 254 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,239 Speaker 1: will happen in our lifetime. 255 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 4: I think it can be done in twenty years. 256 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 7: But it would take twenty years, so we're not in 257 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 7: twenty nine. We're not there. What are we missing? What 258 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 7: are the big technologies? 259 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 4: We don't have a few people running around the surface 260 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:22,599 Speaker 4: in a hostile environment is not going to make it 261 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 4: self sustaining. So you're going to need it on the 262 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 4: order of a million people, maybe a million tons of cargo. 263 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 7: So but you think we could have a million people 264 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,479 Speaker 7: on Mars in twenty years, Yes. 265 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: Doctor Rebecca, this is the most ambitious project in human history. 266 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: What will be the biggest challenges when it comes to 267 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 2: building a self sustaining city on Mars? 268 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 5: Well, I think you know, the keys are really kind 269 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 5: of tying back to just having this initial expedition, if 270 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 5: you will, to Mars for human beings. Is those same 271 00:13:54,520 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 5: factors food, you know, other resources, water, electricity, power, all 272 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 5: the things that we know we depend on just to survive, 273 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 5: and then you have to go beyond that so you 274 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 5: can access the right minerals. We have a lot of 275 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 5: research thanks to resource processing on Earth mining, resource extraction. 276 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 5: We know how to get stuff out of the ground. 277 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 5: We know how to take that stuff and turn it 278 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 5: into useful tools and resources. But how you actually process 279 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 5: that on a planet where there's no power system set 280 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 5: up and you're maybe entirely relying on solar power. That 281 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 5: problem hasn't been solved yet. So I think there's some 282 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 5: key technological leaps that really have to happen to go 283 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 5: beyond an expedition where you're basically like on the Moon 284 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 5: landing pretty much staying in your lander and maybe tiptoeing out, 285 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 5: tiptoeing back in a few times, versus a structure which 286 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 5: is protecting you from the elements, able to produce power, 287 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 5: you're able to grow food, all of these key things, 288 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 5: process water, get oxygen, all of those things. I mean, 289 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 5: I would say that's still very far down the track 290 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 5: because we haven't demonstrated that we can do it off 291 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 5: world yet. Until we can demonstrate it, we don't know 292 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 5: what will break and what will go wrong. So we 293 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 5: have to do that first in order to really be 294 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 5: able to answer that question. 295 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: Another hypothetical, Let's say that we do get a human 296 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: on Mars in twenty years living in a self sustaining city. 297 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: What would that look like. 298 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: Obviously it's not going to be like the Jetsons or 299 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: anything like that, but can you paint me a bit 300 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: of a picture of what it would be like for 301 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 2: a human living on Mars in a self sustained city. 302 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 5: Well, you know, one thing we haven't even touched on 303 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 5: yet is the fact that Mars does not have the 304 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 5: same gravity as Earth. It's much much lower because Mars 305 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 5: is a much smaller planet. So we have to first 306 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 5: think about the fact that even you know, building things, processes, 307 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 5: all of that is affected by reduced gravity. And we've 308 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 5: seen on the space station, which is an extreme version 309 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 5: of this, because it's basically zero gravity, how negatively that 310 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 5: impacts us as human beings, as well as how challenging 311 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 5: that makes even the most basic things like growing plants. 312 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 5: Hypothetically if we're there, one of the big questions is 313 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 5: would we have artificial gravity, would it just be easier 314 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 5: for humans to survive and sustain long term? 315 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 6: So you either have an environment. 316 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 5: Where you have artificial gravity, so we're basically on the 317 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 5: same level of gravity as Earth, and then what would 318 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 5: it take to actually realize that, But again, the technology 319 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 5: to create that not there yet. So I would say, 320 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 5: if we're really let's just go sci fi for a second, 321 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 5: I would say, we either have artificial gravity or we 322 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 5: have an environment where we're trained and we adapt to 323 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 5: much lower gravity. And then you have to think about 324 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 5: all of the systems. You know, in a kind of 325 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 5: protected habitat, you know, it's got to be super reinforced 326 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 5: because of the very volatile conditions on Mars, and you know, 327 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 5: be able to extract the resources. So I wouldn't say 328 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 5: it's like, you know, this glimmering sci fi hotel. 329 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 6: I would say it's. 330 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 5: A very industrial, very basic living, just scraping by kind 331 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 5: of civilization. And if you have a million people, what 332 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 5: it takes to feed a million people? 333 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 6: You know, we're talking, you know, like silent greens. 334 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 5: We're not talking like beautiful buffets of fresh vegetables. You know, 335 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 5: we're talking nutrient packs to really just get us by. 336 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 5: I don't think, you know, we're having this garden of Eden, 337 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 5: you know, if we're if we're thinking of self sustaining 338 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 5: city in the next you know, quarter of a century, 339 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 5: it is going to be the most basic technology to 340 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 5: just keep us of protect us from the elements. So 341 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 5: it's not it's not a glamorous life. And to be fair, 342 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 5: to be fair in all of this, I am totally biased. 343 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 5: I am totally happy for the robots to venture around 344 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 5: into space and for me as a human being to 345 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 5: stay on this planet where I evolved to live. And 346 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 5: so I look at it in a bit more glass 347 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 5: half empty of view, because I just think, you know, 348 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 5: just even flying on a seventeen hour flight from Melbourne 349 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 5: to la is not the most comfortable thing. And they 350 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 5: think about what human beings would have to endure just 351 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 5: to get to Mars, and once they're there, what they 352 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 5: would have to undergo. 353 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: So final question, then yes or no? 354 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: If Elon came knocking in twenty years and said doctor Rebecca, 355 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: I've got a spot on the shuttle for you. I'd 356 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: love to send you up to Mars to help with 357 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 2: this project. Would you go, I'll tell you what. 358 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 5: I wouldn't go, but I would love to help with 359 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 5: the mission. 360 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 6: I would love to. 361 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 5: See humanity make that incredible milestone. I don't need to 362 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 5: be the person on the rocket, but I'd love to 363 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 5: help keep those people on the rocket alive. So that 364 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 5: would be my answer. 365 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: There you go, Elon, if you're watching, doctor Rebecca is 366 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: came to help. 367 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time and for chatting 368 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: to from the newsroom. 369 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 6: Of course, I. 370 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: Don't know about you, but that chat has made me 371 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 2: desperate for a Mars bar, so I'm going to nick 372 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: off to the vending machine. You have a great weekend, okay, 373 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: and I would check you again on Monday. 374 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: Follow us, subscribe to from the Newsroom wherever you get 375 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: your podcasts.