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Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the

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Speaker 1: View Project. I am super excited, and you know that

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Speaker 1: I don't say that very often, so I must be

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Speaker 1: super excited because I do this seven days a week,

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Speaker 1: and you talk to people. I've spoken to thousands of people,

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Speaker 1: and I am excited to talk to our guest today

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Speaker 1: because I've been doing a deep dive on her. I

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Speaker 1: listened to her recently on Rogan and went, Wow, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: I love to talk to her? Wouldn't I love to

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Speaker 1: talk to that lady? And I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Rebecca,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the You Project. How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm great? Thanks so much for the invitation, Craig.

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks for agreeing. Thanks for agreeing. Do you want

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Speaker 1: me to call your prof or Rebecca?

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Speaker 2: Rebecca's fine, Okay, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well we appreciate you. Can you give my listeners a

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Speaker 1: quick snapshot of who you are? Obviously we're going to

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Speaker 1: do a deep dive into the newest book and all

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Speaker 1: of your research, but just tell them who you are

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Speaker 1: if you would.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Well, my day job is being a professor, and

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Speaker 2: I teach in a field called history of science, which

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Speaker 2: is a pretty it's a pretty unique field where we

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Speaker 2: get to study the role of science, technology, and medicine,

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Speaker 2: but from a historical and historical perspective and just trying

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Speaker 2: to understand how these things work. And I teach at

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Speaker 2: Harvard in that in a department, a small department, but

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Speaker 2: as trained as an anthropologist, I have had many other experiences.

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Speaker 2: I've been a yoga teacher and student of yoga, and

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Speaker 2: I also consider myself a writer and basically a researcher.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I heard your interesting story about so you

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Speaker 1: still do Are you still doing yoga every day? Like

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Speaker 1: two hours morning in like an hour morning hour not

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Speaker 1: or something like that.

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Speaker 2: I do do the meditation for an hour in the

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Speaker 2: morning and an hour at night. And sometimes my yoga

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Speaker 2: practice has been slipping a little bit. But like you,

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Speaker 2: I have a background in athletics too, so I love

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Speaker 2: that too.

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Speaker 1: I heard with interest that for you having that practice

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Speaker 1: mains you need less sleep. Yeah, how does that work?

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Speaker 1: What's the science behind that? Do you know?

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Speaker 2: I don't know the science, and I didn't expect that

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Speaker 2: to be an outcome of learning to meditate. I've heard

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Speaker 2: it reported that other people have had this experience, but

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Speaker 2: also some people have not. And you can't really rely

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Speaker 2: on it happening. But for whatever reason, I went from

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Speaker 2: and it's fortunate because I think otherwise had to have

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Speaker 2: trouble fitting in the meditation. But I went from needing

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Speaker 2: a good eight eight to eight and a half hours

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Speaker 2: to needing about six and a half to seven maybe,

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Speaker 2: which is still I think a good amount of sleep.

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Speaker 2: It's just the meditation's almost like it satisfies the need

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Speaker 2: for sleep, or as I think of it, it's almost

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Speaker 2: a deep birth state that makes me feel rested. So

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Speaker 2: even when my job, travel or whatever vastly reduces my sleep,

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Speaker 2: if I can meditate, like while I'm on the airplane

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Speaker 2: or when I get there, it also helps regulate. I

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Speaker 2: don't know the science there, but maybe somebody has studied that.

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Speaker 1: You are like the picture of equanimity, being the calm

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Speaker 1: and the chaos. I feel like everything that I've read

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Speaker 1: about you and heard about you, like your life is

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Speaker 1: pretty chaotic, Your pretty biggest pretty pretty busy. Is that?

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Speaker 1: So I guess for you to be able to kind

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Speaker 1: of not take all the mayhem and the chaos and

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Speaker 1: the anxiety along with you is important, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's really challenging. I do think what did I have.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of a joke at my university

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Speaker 2: that everybody kind of brags about how busy they are

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Speaker 2: and how hard it's going to be for them to

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Speaker 2: find the time to have coffee with you. And this

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Speaker 2: is and even the students highly scheduled, Like it's amazing

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Speaker 2: we see each other at all. But yeah, I try

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Speaker 2: to just create it human condition for a way that

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Speaker 2: it's enjoyable for myself in different ways, to ground myself

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Speaker 2: and try to create some calm just because otherwise I

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Speaker 2: couldn't stand to do to do it.

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Speaker 1: Are you still supervising payih stay students.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, definitely.

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Speaker 1: That's how many of those have you got at the minute?

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Speaker 2: I have about I've got about three for whom I'm

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Speaker 2: the primary advisor, and then I have about I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe six or seven. Quite a few just graduated. They

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Speaker 2: do all kinds of interesting things. It's actually one of

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Speaker 2: the great parts of the job is getting to know

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Speaker 2: these students. And I really love helping students figure out

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Speaker 2: what projects sort of suit them and how they're going

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Speaker 2: to do them. That's been something I didn't expect. So

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Speaker 2: there's and we're a pretty small department too.

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Speaker 1: I feel like if you can do your payah Dale

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Speaker 1: or whatever research that intersects with something that you genuinely

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Speaker 1: are fascinated with, rather than oh, this is a topic,

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Speaker 1: I'll do this topic because I want to get a

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Speaker 1: PhD and the university wants me to do this or

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Speaker 1: have been pushed in this direction. But like my research,

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Speaker 1: I'm absolutely fascinated with and so it's kind of exciting

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Speaker 1: and it's fun. It's not I mean, the work, you

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Speaker 1: know is hard on all of that, but it's it's

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Speaker 1: because I'm actually really curious about this, and it kind

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Speaker 1: of spills into my work. I'm a corporate speaker and

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Speaker 1: you know, do this every day. So I'm intersecting with

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Speaker 1: people and trying to understand people and trying to you know,

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Speaker 1: theory of mind and metaperception and metaaccuracy and metacognition, trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how other people see the world and

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Speaker 1: how they think and process stuff. And that's my research.

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Speaker 1: Like it all kind of folds in together and this

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Speaker 1: nice little kind of cognitive soup, you know. I love that.

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Speaker 2: It's nice if you can. I mean, I think we

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Speaker 2: do have more choice sometimes in arranging our lives than

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Speaker 2: we think, and I've often found that it, including myself

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Speaker 2: when I was a graduate student. A lot of people

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Speaker 2: feel constrained by this imaginary you know they. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we all actually have committees that we have to get

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Speaker 2: our work approved by or whoever whatever authorities. But often

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Speaker 2: I found that people would imagine their committee saying, no,

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Speaker 2: you can't do that project, even though you really want

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Speaker 2: to do it. You have to do this compromise, or

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Speaker 2: you have to you have to suit the market, or

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Speaker 2: you have to project ahead what people will be hiring.

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Speaker 2: But I always think those choices so people seem to

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Speaker 2: be torn between what they really want to do and

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Speaker 2: then what they think will get them hired. But it

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Speaker 2: feels like canceling out just sheer enjoyment, and it should

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Speaker 2: be enjoyable. So I always try to be someone who

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Speaker 2: advocates for that doing the thing that you enjoy, because

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Speaker 2: then you never really lose out, even if you like it.

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Speaker 2: Took me quite a while to get a job after

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Speaker 2: my PhD, just because I did something pretty unusual.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've always felt like that. When I was

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Speaker 1: in my early twenties, I was working in fitness centers

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Speaker 1: and gyms, and I realized I wanted to work, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be an employee. So the last

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Speaker 1: time I had a job, as in it i was

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Speaker 1: an employee was when I was twenty six, which was

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Speaker 1: thirty five years ago. So I've the last thirty five

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Speaker 1: years I've just been making shit up doc just figuring shit,

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Speaker 1: just figuring it out. But I think that when you're

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Speaker 1: kind of what you do, you know, what pays the bills,

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Speaker 1: intersex with what you like and what you're passionate about

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Speaker 1: and what you're curious about, then that sense of drudgery

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Speaker 1: that can come with work or research kind of. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's periodic. I guess not every day is

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Speaker 1: a Hollywood movie or a Disney sitcom, but but you

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Speaker 1: know it's for the most part. Yeah, I never get

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Speaker 1: sick of what I do, So, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's a bonus. So you've written, You've written a

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Speaker 1: bunch of books, but your new book is called The

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Speaker 1: Instability of Truth. By the way, can you understand my

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Speaker 1: accent clearly? Or am I talking too far?

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Speaker 2: No? I get it.

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Speaker 1: I like it, okay. So the Instability of Truth brainwashing,

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Speaker 1: mind control, and hyper persuasion. I loved your chat with Rogan,

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Speaker 1: as I said, and that wasn't brief that that was

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Speaker 1: three hours of my life that I actually enjoyed investing,

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Speaker 1: give or take three hours.

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Speaker 2: The thing I liked about it is it kind of

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Speaker 2: went somewhere like, yeah, even though it's long, I felt

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Speaker 2: like we got you know, made progress instead of sometimes

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Speaker 2: you feel like you're spinning your wheels or a long

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Speaker 2: conversation doesn't pay off anyway, That's how I felt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Well. The thing is I always say to people,

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Speaker 1: irrespective of like whether or not it's a corporate gig le,

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Speaker 1: listening to Rogan or a podcast or a radio whatever

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Speaker 1: it is, is it good to listen to? Do you

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Speaker 1: want to keep listening? Like that's the you know, that's

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Speaker 1: the litmus test. And I did not want to stop listening.

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Speaker 1: And one because I started listening because I knew I

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Speaker 1: was going to chat to you, and then I went, oh, this,

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Speaker 1: excuse my language, this is fucking fascinating, and then I

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Speaker 1: couldn't stop listening. But it's great. So everyone have a

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Speaker 1: listen to Rebecca on Joe as well. What does the

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Speaker 1: instability of truth mean? Like, what was the why, what

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Speaker 1: was the premise for that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was trying to think of a title basically

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Speaker 2: for a book about brainwashing, mind control and like the

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Speaker 2: question of whether how this connects to our current reality

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Speaker 2: or real you know, digital reality and things like that,

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Speaker 2: social media, and I was so trying different titles. I

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Speaker 2: was talking to my mom about what the book is about,

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Speaker 2: and I said, it's kind of about the way. It's

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Speaker 2: not that we're on truth, but it were, it's an

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Speaker 2: instability of truth. The truth is not easily available at

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Speaker 2: all times, and it sometimes seems remote or it's sometimes

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Speaker 2: it seems really unstable. Is the word I want? And

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Speaker 2: she said, oh, write that down, and then she actually

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Speaker 2: wrote it down for me, and then that became the title.

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Speaker 2: But it's just that's it's just so just basically came out.

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Speaker 1: Of a conversation, how great is mum?

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Speaker 2: She's a great Yeah, she's a raider.

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Speaker 1: Too, So that was, well, yeah, truth is interesting because

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Speaker 1: there's there's the practical, you know, thing that's happening, the

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Speaker 1: objective truth. You know, it's like the light turned red.

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Speaker 1: That's the objective truth. Then there's my subjective experience of

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Speaker 1: that objective event. So there's my truth. My truth is

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Speaker 1: the world's against me every traffic light's turning red, this

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Speaker 1: is not fair. So, you know, trying to have an

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Speaker 1: awareness of like where where does the objective thing finish

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Speaker 1: and where does my subjective experience of that start, because

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Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of us lack that consciousness

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Speaker 1: or level of awareness that what's going on in my

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Speaker 1: head is not the truth, the objective, global, universal truths,

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Speaker 1: but rather just my story of something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of what we take to

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Speaker 2: be true is our perception. But it's not that I'm

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Speaker 2: a relativist or anything. I just think that we are

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Speaker 2: constantly we kind of create the reality tunnels in which

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Speaker 2: we live. I think that's an insight that even someone

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Speaker 2: like you know, the great psychedelic and psychedelic researchers of

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Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies thought about things like that. But

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of truth to that. Also

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Speaker 2: in my field. I mean, it's really helpful to be

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Speaker 2: in a field like history of science, where they actually

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Speaker 2: have papers just looking at the history of objectivity and

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Speaker 2: it actually meant different things over time. So in the

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Speaker 2: seventeenth century, there was no sense that you know, technical

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Speaker 2: instruments gave you the objective or most exact truth. Truth

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Speaker 2: was not seen to be something that was exact. It

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Speaker 2: was seen to be something like if you could represent

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Speaker 2: a flower through its essence, that would be objective, not

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Speaker 2: you know, the hyper measure. You know, our focus on

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Speaker 2: measurement only came a bit later through what they call

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Speaker 2: mechanical objectivity. So anyway, it's helpful to be in a

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Speaker 2: field where they think about things.

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Speaker 1: Like that, trying to understand the mind of individuals and

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Speaker 1: trying to do science around it, you know, human behavior

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Speaker 1: and you know psychology, and it's kind of tricky, isn't it,

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Speaker 1: Because there's it's very difficult to measure and observe other

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Speaker 1: than like we observe, we don't really observe the mind.

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Speaker 1: We observe the byproduct of what's happening in the mind,

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Speaker 1: you know. And even with my mind research, sometimes I go,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of garbage just in terms of measurement

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Speaker 1: tools and stuff. You know. You like, yeah, yeah, because

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Speaker 1: you know, like you and Tiff and I can all

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Speaker 1: do the same kind of psychological assessment this morning or

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Speaker 1: our time this morning, and depending on how I'm feeling

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Speaker 1: and what I've eaten and how much sleep I've had,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to get completely different data to

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Speaker 1: if the same person does the same test or protocol

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Speaker 1: a day or two or three later, we're going to

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Speaker 1: get different data and then different science. And it's like,

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Speaker 1: it's a really tricky area of research. I think the mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's been my obsession for the past couple decades,

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Speaker 2: aside from the brainwashing stuff, is really how do we

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Speaker 2: measure subjectivity? And how has science kind of dreamed of

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Speaker 2: getting tools that will allow you to actually extract that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's one thing to wear someone or physically

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Speaker 2: test them, but if you want to take a sample

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Speaker 2: of their inner life or their inner thoughts, like, how

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Speaker 2: would they do that? And I got very interested in

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Speaker 2: things like the Rorshach test or dreams, you know, science

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Speaker 2: of dreams, things like that which were which were kind

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Speaker 2: of sampled and turned into scientific objects of study. But

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Speaker 2: it is a difficult it's a challenge that scientists often

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Speaker 2: want to take on, or psychologists especially, but often are

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Speaker 2: it's it doesn't always it's kind of awkward the results sometimes.

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts around gratitude? I work with lots

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Speaker 1: of people who or quite a few people who've got

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Speaker 1: some significant disabilities and challenges, and when I spend time

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Speaker 1: with them, I mean when I spent well one. I

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Speaker 1: love spending time with them, but the volume on my

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Speaker 1: gratitude is always turned up a little bit when I leave,

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Speaker 1: because I walk away going I guess I can walk

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Speaker 1: Guess what. I can get up out of a chair,

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Speaker 1: I can open the fridge, I can turn on the tap,

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Speaker 1: I can you know, I live relatively pain free. I

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Speaker 1: don't have any massive debt, I'm not in threat. You know,

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Speaker 1: It's it feels like when we've got things really good,

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Speaker 1: we don't seem to have the same level of gratitude

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Speaker 1: as when we lose something and then get it back.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps I think it.

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Speaker 2: Is amazing what we are capable as human beings of

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Speaker 2: taking for granted, like it only takes you know, several

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Speaker 2: times in my life I've had injuries such as a

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Speaker 2: neck injury, where I can't actually for whatever reason. You know,

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Speaker 2: something you're so used to being able to do, like

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Speaker 2: turn your head, You take for granted that I can

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Speaker 2: turn my head, lift my head, not be in agony,

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Speaker 2: and then suddenly when you lose that capacity you and

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Speaker 2: then hopefully get it back, you have incredible gratitude for it,

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Speaker 2: but we somehow it's elusive to be in that state

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Speaker 2: all the time. And I notice in myself, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: my capacity to feel gratitude and to it's kind of

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Speaker 2: something you have to cultivate, like you're saying in your

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Speaker 2: work with I think that I think the world provides

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Speaker 2: us many opportunities to be grateful and also many opportunities

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Speaker 2: to complain, so you can, like I have this phrase

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Speaker 2: called the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, which I feel that

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's like a curse that descends on me. I'm

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Speaker 2: walking around and you know, I start I usually start

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Speaker 2: the semester where everything seems full of possibility and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so lucky I get to be paid to do

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Speaker 2: research on the things I want and you know, without

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Speaker 2: oversight to write about it. But by the end of

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Speaker 2: the semester, I feel like everything is heavy and concrete,

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Speaker 2: and I sometimes fine have trouble having gratitude for you know,

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Speaker 2: just these things. So I think it is well, noticing

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Speaker 2: when that happens is a good first step.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's finding the space between the thing that's happening

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Speaker 1: and us. And also I think sometimes realizing what's changed

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Speaker 1: over the last three months is not so much the

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Speaker 1: thing or the event or the situation or the goings on,

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Speaker 1: but me around it and then leading into that, like

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Speaker 1: what is that about? Even I work kind of a

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Speaker 1: little bit in the personal development space. I hate saying

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Speaker 1: that because it sounds cheesy, but anyway, I do. But

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Speaker 1: I'm always talking about you know, so much of personal

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Speaker 1: development and self help and all of that is focused

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Speaker 1: on the external situation, circumstance, what I have, what I own,

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Speaker 1: what I earn, what I'm getting, what people think, what

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Speaker 1: I look like, all that visible stuff and trying to

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Speaker 1: or having the awareness that I can build all of that. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: but maybe the thing that really needs to change is

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Speaker 1: not all the stuff that people see, but maybe the

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Speaker 1: stuff that people don't see. Because when I'm different, when

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Speaker 1: I am inherently intrinsically different than my experience of the

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Speaker 1: world is different, right, So true, we try to resolve

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Speaker 1: these internal issues with external stuff. If I have this

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Speaker 1: or do that or achieve that, or people think that,

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Speaker 1: or I have a million listeners per episode, or if

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Speaker 1: I whatever, then then I'm going to be X, Y

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Speaker 1: and Z. And then that happens and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm still insecure. I've still got a big ego, I

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Speaker 1: still want people to love me. I feel still feel disconnected.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't getting the thing you want to

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Speaker 2: be careful what you ask for getting the thing you wanted,

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Speaker 2: even in the positive way. I mean, it's also another

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Speaker 2: opportunity to realize that it wasn't the thing. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: the thing that you wanted, you actually wanted some kind

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Speaker 2: of internal state. I mean, a simple thing that happens

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Speaker 2: to me, I mean I happened to everyone. Is I

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Speaker 2: could walk out wearing an up for that, like the

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Speaker 2: day before I wore it and I felt awesome, and

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Speaker 2: then I'm We're in the very same thing. But I

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Speaker 2: just feel like I've made a terrible mistake that I

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Speaker 2: don't know. The only thing that's changed is my is

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Speaker 2: my attitude. Probably maybe a couple other factors.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you donate to get address. After all, Tiff not

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Speaker 1: Tiff doesn't do dresses. Chiff's a self proclimbed tomboy. Well,

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Speaker 1: tell us about your fascination with all the genesis of

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Speaker 1: your fascination with mind control. Where did that start? Did

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Speaker 1: something happen? Did you have an experience like where did

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Speaker 1: that come from.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think on two levels. I think I when

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Speaker 2: I published the book, I had to go back and

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Speaker 2: rethink all of this because it's been with me for

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Speaker 2: so long, I think about two and a half decades

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Speaker 2: that I've been Since I was finishing my dissertation. I

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Speaker 2: wrote the conclusion about brainwashing, the last chapter I think

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Speaker 2: it was, and I started to think about brainwashing it

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Speaker 2: because I wrote my dissertation about conditioning and behavioral engineering

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Speaker 2: and the extent to which people can be controlled, or

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Speaker 2: first laboratory animals, and then how that could be extended

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Speaker 2: to people. So I thought brainwashing in a weird way.

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Speaker 2: I just thought of it as like an abstract Oh,

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Speaker 2: this would be a territory, or this is an extreme

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Speaker 2: version of unfreedom, yes, where you become someone who's not yourself.

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Speaker 2: And I guess I had always been interested in that question,

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Speaker 2: can you become someone? Can you become a different person

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Speaker 2: without realizing it, either slowly or very quickly, which is

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Speaker 2: brainwashing tends to be radical transformation. But in my personal life,

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Speaker 2: I guess it's a thing where my research question also

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Speaker 2: became personal in the sense that I think around that

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Speaker 2: time I fell into like a addiction just just out

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Speaker 2: of some difficult circumstances in my life, feeling like I

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Speaker 2: disappointed my family and just feeling like I had too

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Speaker 2: much to deal with and I would like to check

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Speaker 2: out for a while. And I did, and it was

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Speaker 2: kind of combined with a very negative relationship that was

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Speaker 2: involved with the drugs, and that period long, prolonged period

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Speaker 2: of I mean, it was just a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: but still it felt like and it relates to brainwashing

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Speaker 2: in the sense that it became not obvious to me

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Speaker 2: that I would get out or that I deserve to,

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Speaker 2: And so I did become a different person. And then

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Speaker 2: when I did, which was almost accidental in some ways,

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Speaker 2: I broke the spell of this terrible situation. I did

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Speaker 2: feel incredible gratitude, but also it seemed amazing to me

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Speaker 2: that that had happened, you know, and it seemed like

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Speaker 2: that's worth trying, that understanding that would give me some

380
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Speaker 2: sort of power or help I could maybe it would

381
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Speaker 2: be helpful or compassion, I guess, for just understanding that

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Speaker 2: this can happen to anybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting because everybody wants to belong

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Speaker 1: as well to a group or something bigger than themselves.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes and whether or not that's a church or

386
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Speaker 1: a social group or a different kind of religious group

387
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Speaker 1: or like, we want connection, and sometimes in order to

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Speaker 1: stay connected or be part of the group, we've got

389
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Speaker 1: to conform to a certain ideology or philosophy or way

390
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Speaker 1: of being or behaving or you know, socializing or worshiping

391
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Speaker 1: or and then there's all of this pressure and guilt

392
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Speaker 1: wrapped around. If you don't think like us or be

393
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Speaker 1: like like you can't you can't question things because we've

394
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Speaker 1: we've found the truth. So you're here, You're in the

395
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Speaker 1: middle of the truth, right, So you don't need to

396
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Speaker 1: learn anything more, you don't need All you need to

397
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Speaker 1: do is like follow the path, right, and you're on

398
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Speaker 1: the path, So why would you even Yeah, So I

399
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Speaker 1: have an experience in a church where I went to

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Speaker 1: when I was younger, which was very very culty, very culty,

401
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Speaker 1: and even now, like one hundred years later, I still

402
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: feel pangs of guilt when I talk about it, because

403
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Speaker 1: I feel disloyal and unfaithful, like and I recognize it

404
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Speaker 1: for what it is, but there's still that I feel,

405
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Speaker 1: you know, and there were not everything to come out

406
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Speaker 1: of that was bad, of course, but so much coeresive pressure,

407
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Speaker 1: so much manipulation, so much control, and so much like

408
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Speaker 1: when I was young and quite I was probably an

409
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Speaker 1: asset to the church. I was young and a bit

410
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Speaker 1: dynamic and a bit whatever, like I was valuable to them.

411
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Speaker 1: And so then there's just a lot of pressure and

412
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Speaker 1: manipulation and coercion and bullshit, to be honest, to get

413
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Speaker 1: you to be what they wanted you to be. And

414
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Speaker 1: the moment that you would ask questions or say look,

415
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Speaker 1: I don't really agree with that, will, they start to

416
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Speaker 1: lose their grip and then they panic and then the

417
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Speaker 1: screws get tighter. Yeah. And it's only in hindsight that

418
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Speaker 1: I can look back and go, oh wow, I was

419
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Speaker 1: in the middle of something, you know, really very very

420
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Speaker 1: cultish and controlling and manipulative and in a way mind

421
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Speaker 1: control because you're actually discouraged from thinking critically.

422
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Speaker 2: Right, I mean, they can yeah, I think I relate

423
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Speaker 2: to what you're saying. And subsequently I've been in various

424
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Speaker 2: yoga groups that have elements of just you know, what

425
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Speaker 2: you end up submitting to, even just the idea that

426
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Speaker 2: a teacher should be allowed to say push you into

427
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Speaker 2: this position, or you note that then there's a culture

428
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Speaker 2: around that says this is what's acceptable, and people seem

429
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Speaker 2: to be transformed before your eyes, and there's this idea

430
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Speaker 2: that this, oh, this is perfectly. Maybe those other groups

431
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: are cults, but we're we've found some sort of special

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00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: route to to you know, personal transformation or whatever it is.

433
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: Those things do change you, and hopefully they also give

434
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,239
Speaker 2: you some really really valuable experience. Because I love I

435
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: love the fact that the word experience in English means

436
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 2: in the in the old days, in the early modern period,

437
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: it was a synonym for experiment. So you know, we

438
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 2: all have these experiences that are in a sense very valuable,

439
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: very valuable sources of information akin to experiments. And I

440
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: think it's the most valuable thing is what you've personally experienced,

441
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 2: if you can, if you can later make the most

442
00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 2: of it and not sort of beuh not not be

443
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: stuck in it.

444
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: Yes, you know what you learn from it about yourself

445
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: and about other people. And for me, I look back more,

446
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, no regret. For me, I look back and

447
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: it's just curiosity. And I think, like the like when

448
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: you think about it, from when we're from when we

449
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: could reason anything, from when we could process anything around

450
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: us as children, as babies until now you and me

451
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: on this conversation and Tiff is that we've been programmed,

452
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: you know, and influenced and manipulated and coerced, and so

453
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: my worldview is only partly my worldview. You know, I'm

454
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: always looking at everything through the Craig window, thinking like, well,

455
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: I know better, but most of us think, well, I'm objective.

456
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: And it's like I say to people, you, really, objectivity

457
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: on a personal level as almost impossible because you're looking

458
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: through the subjective Craig window or Rebecca or Tiff window

459
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: or and so everything that I'm looking at is at

460
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: least informed or influenced or affected in some way by

461
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: the totality of my experiences until now. And so for me,

462
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: it's like consciousness and awareness is recognizing that, ah, this

463
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: is just my version of the truth, and then trying

464
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: to expand on that is the tricky bit.

465
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: I agree, I mean, I think so, I agree that

466
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 2: we've been programmed or we are being programmed, and I

467
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: think that can both that that in itself can be

468
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: something one wants to break free. And I'll just suxily

469
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 2: talked about negative self transcendence and positive self transcendence, and

470
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: he said, well, you know, it would be ideal if

471
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: everyone could have positive self transcendence through some way of

472
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 2: breaking or programming seeing, you know, being able to think

473
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: for yourself and free yourself from the assumptions about the

474
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: you know, the limited nature of the life you should

475
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 2: leave or the the what you should accept, because inevitably

476
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: it'll be limiting. That's what he felt. But he said,

477
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: also there's negative self transcendent, which sometimes also breaks the

478
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: pattern and therefore is to be valued even though it's

479
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: a harder path. But also what you were saying reminded

480
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: me of just this line from Walt Whitman where he says,

481
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: I am a part of everything I have met. Yeah,

482
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 2: which I really like because in a sense, we are

483
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: constantly responding and remaking ourselves potentially at every moment, so

484
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: there's some sense there. I think the mistake is to

485
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: think that we're sort of very autonomous, you know, sort

486
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: of sealed hermetically sealed.

487
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you like, I think about my beliefs, good

488
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: and bad, you know, empowering, self limiting. Most of my

489
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: beliefs I didn't choose them, they're just thereby social osmosis.

490
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: You know, by like when you're ten years old, you

491
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: have all these beliefs, and pretty much none of them

492
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: you chose. Mum and Dad chose them for you, or

493
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 1: your peers or friends or you know, and so you

494
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: grow up in this world view looking through this window

495
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: that you didn't choose, and so it's difficult in the

496
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: middle of that to realize that that you didn't You

497
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: didn't build this reality. You're just part of this reality.

498
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 2: Right. That's why that's why I wanted to go to

499
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: I thought anthropology seemed like the most interesting topic when

500
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: I was preparing to go to graduate school. I thought, well,

501
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: it would you could ask that question, would I be

502
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: someone else? Is there some essence of who would I

503
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: be someone else if I was raised an erratically different

504
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: place at a radically different time. Just that in itself

505
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 2: is kind of profound because we are so shaped by

506
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: our environment.

507
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I grew up in a really Catholic FA family.

508
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: Initially that was my first part of religious call, right.

509
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's like I've said this many times on

510
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: the show, but by the time I was ten, I

511
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: knew that there was heaven and Helen purgatory, and I

512
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: knew that if I died with a mortal sin on

513
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: my soul. I'd burn in an eternal lake of fire forever.

514
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: And that wasn't even a question. That was just that's

515
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: what happened. That was like, that's a tree. It was

516
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: like I knew that as much as I knew what

517
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: a tree looked like. And I never questioned that because

518
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: there was no reason to, because all the people I

519
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: looked up to and trusted and loved, that was the

520
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, so the idea of thinking outside of that programming. Yeah,

521
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if that for some people, maybe that

522
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: never happens or that never dawns on them.

523
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: I think for some people, I think there are every person.

524
00:30:53,560 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: I believe every person has invitations too. But sometimes it

525
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,239
Speaker 2: only comes with uh, with you know, severe grief or

526
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: something where all of like the loss of a loved

527
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: one or a spouse or a child, you know, just

528
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: tragedies often strangely enough, have that effect where it just

529
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: breaks the program. You see that nothing, nothing was important

530
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 2: that I thought was important, Or you see that the

531
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 2: thing you took for granted, uh you know, was was

532
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: actually the thing you should have or might have focused on.

533
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: So sometimes it's those things. But other times I think

534
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: I think we are uh maybe so, I just I

535
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: just took this course in at the University of Amsterdam,

536
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: a two weeks two week course on the history of

537
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: human consciousness and the psychedelic history of psychedelics research. But

538
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: really one thing that they were it was quite a

539
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: formal class, a lot of lecturing, and and these were

540
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: by religious study scholars, and one of one of the

541
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: points they were making is we think there are three

542
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: base human drives, which is what is it, food, reproduction,

543
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: shelter or something like that.

544
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: Yep.

545
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: But actually there's a fourth which is the alteration of

546
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: one's consciousness, whether it's in small ways just through an

547
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: amazing meal. But we we do seem and you can

548
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: look back as far as Homo sapien sapient, or further

549
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: to Neanderthal, the different types of human varieties that preceded,

550
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: you know that they all seem to have this desire

551
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: to break this kind of narrow the narrow mold of

552
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: their programming.

553
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: I think it's I think everyone at some stage thinks

554
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: is this all there is? You know? Is like, is

555
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: this is all that I know or there is to know?

556
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: And obviously the answer is not the answers no to that.

557
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: But I think also sometimes when our beliefs and our

558
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: ideas and our stories essentially form our identity, then anyone

559
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: who doesn't align with our ideas or philosophy or theology

560
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: or whatever, especially when our sense of self is intertwined

561
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: with that, it's almost like they become the enemy. Like

562
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: when you think about anyone who has really strongly held

563
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: belief or faith, and you know when who they are

564
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: is essentially that the idea of well, well, you know,

565
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: this is what I think or believe, but I could

566
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: be wrong. Well, that's usually not on the table, you know.

567
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 1: I think just the idea of opening yourself to the idea.

568
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: Like I always say to people, I've been wrong thousands

569
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: and thousands of times, so I'm probably going to be

570
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: wrong about twenty things today. So the idea that I

571
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: know and everyone that doesn't agree with me is wrong

572
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: is really just an exercise in ego and insecurity and fear. Yeah.

573
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: I think that's why brainwashing is an interesting phenomenon because

574
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: will often mistake it, or even myself when I got

575
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: into it, You mistake it as an ideal loot, a

576
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 2: problem of ideas, someone got the wrong ideas they got

577
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: bad ideas they got they fell for. They fell for

578
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 2: a scam or a scheme or you know, a set

579
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: a system that is just wrong or is bad thinking,

580
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: or they weren't smart enough to see through it. But

581
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 2: I think some of it so much of it riads

582
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: on emotional identification, also the harnessing of trauma and of

583
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: painful experiences in your life. And that's the thing that

584
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 2: we often don't see. So that I try to argue

585
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,479
Speaker 2: that brainwashing is actually something that if you're only seeing

586
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 2: it happening to other people and not applying the window

587
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 2: to yourself, then you're probably missing the actual dynamics of

588
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: how it works.

589
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the relationship or the insection. I don't know

590
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: what the right term is. But between the same mind control,

591
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: if we had a hierarchy mind control and influence and

592
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: manipulation and coercion, are they all first cousins? Like is

593
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: it all in the same wheelhouse?

594
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I would. I would say that sometimes

595
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: there are just different words and they have different kind

596
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: of intensity to them. I mean persuasion, I would take

597
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 2: out a little bit. I would say there are aspects

598
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 2: of persuasion that are and I even think there's possibly

599
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: a kind of positive brainwashing or self transformation, as long

600
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: as it's done with full consent, you can always leave.

601
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: There's not an abusive relationship. And you could say many

602
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 2: you know, there are ways that you could put yourself

603
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: in a very intense situation and be transformed, but anyway, influence.

604
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: There's a guy, there's a researcher named Steve Hassan who's

605
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: also an exit counselor. He used to be a deprogramm,

606
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 2: a cult deprogrammer, and before that he was a member

607
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 2: of the Moonies and he is I'm actually backing to

608
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: him on his podcast tomorrow because I actually know him

609
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: because he lives in my area. But he used to

610
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: come guest lecture in my class on brainwashing and he

611
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: basically he has an instrument called the Influence Continuum, and

612
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: it's kind of helpful and you can look it up online,

613
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,479
Speaker 2: but it helps you place identify certain features which would

614
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 2: be extreme influence which is pathological on one side, which

615
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: would be a high demand cult, or a dangerous abusive

616
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: cult which is characterized by extreme hierarchy, the extreme sanction

617
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: if you try to leave, also a abuse of a

618
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: sexual and other types financial abuse, the use of love

619
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 2: bombing thoughts, stopping all these techniques, whereas on the other

620
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: end of influence would be actually more educational in a

621
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: benign sense. And so he kind of lays that stuff

622
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 2: out that you can so you can. I think it's

623
00:36:58,920 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: a useful tool.

624
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think not all influence is bad. And yeah,

625
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: maybe there is. Maybe there are some forms of mind

626
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: control of sorts that I guess. Maybe it depends on

627
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: the outcome for the individual, right is it. Maybe can

628
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: there be a good outcome depending on I do think yeah.

629
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: I mean if you said yeah, I would say definitely.

630
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: And this is the thing that's tricky, and all this

631
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: territory is tricky, and if it wasn't tricky and complicated

632
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: and full of full of potential problems, it wouldn't be

633
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: worth writing a book about. You could just write a

634
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: Wikipedia entry and be done with it, like oh, done

635
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 2: with brainwater. You know, it would be simple. But it's

636
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: actually quite tricky because a lot of people, when they

637
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: join a group that they would later call a very

638
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: dangerous or abusive or a terrible cult, at the beginning,

639
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: they people often feel great benefit and you can see

640
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: the benefit in their lives, even as they're maybe they're

641
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: they're bank account might be drained, but they feel freed

642
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: of their programming. They feel empowered. Even the Manson girls,

643
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 2: many people describe them, you know, later in the trial,

644
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: so I write about the Manson family.

645
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: Yes, so there.

646
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: Were several of them when they were observed in the trial.

647
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: People they used the word brandwashing in the trial to

648
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: convict them and say they had been they were sort

649
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: of mindless robots, but they were still responsible for carrying

650
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: out the will of Charles Manson. But in their lives,

651
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 2: many people surprisingly would describe them as extremely empowered and

652
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: kind of radiating this kind of self assurance, which is

653
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: interesting and not what you expect. And that's what really

654
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: caught the public when they waltzed into the courtroom seemingly

655
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: free of any type of conscience, wearing looking like hippies. Basically.

656
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember you and Rogan talking about how when

657
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 1: people often, as you said initially, when they go into

658
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 1: these cults, they had this transcendent experience, this euphoric experience.

659
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: And I had that. I had that the first time

660
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: I went to this place that I told you about

661
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: where I won't bore everyone with it, but it's like, oh,

662
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, it was a moment I thought, I don't

663
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: know if it was spiritual. I thought it was spiritual,

664
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: but it was definitely emotional and psychological. It was like

665
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: there was this whole and yeah, I still remember that

666
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: experience really quite clearly. And you're like, oh, and so

667
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: even it's funny how that can happen, even in the

668
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: middle of something that's perhaps you know, not as altruistic

669
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: as it might, you know, try to.

670
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 2: I think that's when it's really fascinating, and it makes

671
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 2: it hard when you leave. I think people who leave

672
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: cults often are it's extremely painful, even if they feel

673
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: lucky to have escaped with whatever remains of you know,

674
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: people stand for decades sometimes and they feel drained. There's

675
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: a guy I wrote about named Ray Connolly who's a

676
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: really wonderful person I met at a anti conference. He

677
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: spent thirty five years of his life in the Children

678
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: of God. But he said, at the beginning, yeah, it

679
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: was this amazing connections. He felt filled with like a

680
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: divine presence, He felt connected to others, He felt this

681
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: love emanating from him, and it seemed it was so

682
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: obviously true, and that when you leave, it's very hard

683
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: to abandon those experiences as untrue or as manipulation. So

684
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: I think you kind of have to. I believe it's

685
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 2: legitimate to still value those experiences and just to say

686
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: it's too bad that they were in a context of

687
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: someone or a group that was ultimately extractive and trying

688
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: to steal my vital yeah, my life forces, which is

689
00:40:55,040 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 2: essentially how those groups do function. But really, sorry, it's

690
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: just confusing. I think a lot of people do really

691
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: struggle after they leave, too, because they don't have that

692
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: connection and they miss it.

693
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: Yes, and then you know that, like I had some

694
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: experiences within my time that were great, amazing, like, and

695
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: so there's the the like the experience is real, maybe

696
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: the premise for what set me up for that, or

697
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: maybe some of the stories around you know, But did

698
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: you ever read or maybe you've even met But Megan

699
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: Phelps Roper wrote that book, unfollow I.

700
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: Haven't met her. I haven't, and nor have I read it,

701
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: though I would like to. But I've heard her interviewed,

702
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: and I guess I read an essay she wrote for

703
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 2: maybe for The New Yorker about this experience.

704
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, such a good book, so great. I listened to

705
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: it and Tiff, you had to listen to that, didn't

706
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: yeh yeah, yeah, yeah great, and you liked it.

707
00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 2: I'll put it on my list.

708
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: No, it's fantastic now something that Australians are not so

709
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: familiar with. And I know we've got about fifteen minutes

710
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 1: to go. So is mk Ultra, which was a secret

711
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: CIA program that did some testing with mind control and

712
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: brainwashing and psychological manipulation using LSD and other drugs. And

713
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: could you unpack a little bit of that, because I mean,

714
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: I don't know much about that at all. I've heard

715
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: about it, but it's not something that we grew up

716
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 1: learning about. Could you. Of course, we've got a global audience,

717
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: but probably half our audience a Rossi's so could you

718
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: talk to us about that?

719
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? Sure. And it actually surprises me that mk ultra

720
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: has become a household word in the US, because when

721
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: I started studying it, it was quite obscure. Also, it's

722
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 2: just it's one of those programs that sounds like it

723
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: sounds like a conspiracy theory that must be made up,

724
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: but it's actually a very dark episode in the history

725
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: of the US Central Intelligence Agency, which was quite new.

726
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: So it was one of the first in depth programs

727
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 2: that was funded clandestinely by the CIA right after actually

728
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: during the armistice of the Korean War, so right after

729
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: World War Two when the os SO, the OSS is

730
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 2: the Office of Strategic Services that preceded the CIA, and

731
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: once the CIA was was formed, initially as an intelligence

732
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: agency and then quickly it kind of morphed into, you know,

733
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 2: a covert operation organization. So mk Ultra arose out of

734
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: a crisis about brainwashing that you know, hit the headlines

735
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: and hit and it became a kind of an international obsession.

736
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 2: These US and there are actually some Australian soldiers who

737
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: were fighting in Korea because it was a UN coalition

738
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: that sent soldiers and there were several Australians I think

739
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: that were caught up in the brainwashing scandal too, So

740
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 2: that would be interesting to look into. These soldiers were

741
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 2: POW's prisoners of war held for several years behind north

742
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 2: of the Yalu River in these prison camps, and many

743
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: of them had been through experiences that were so really horrendous,

744
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: at the edge of death, you know, just from starvation

745
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: and lack of treatment for their wounds and exhaustion and

746
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: neglect and so by the time they found themselves in

747
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 2: these camps, they were they experienced further, they froze to

748
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: death at night they were packed in, but ultimately they

749
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: were Once the Chinese took over the camps, they they

750
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: experimented and tried to see whether Maoist re education would

751
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: actually work on Westerners as well as because Mao predicted

752
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 2: it would work on all humanity except for the seven

753
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 2: percent who were resistant to being properly re educated or

754
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: thought reform. So it turned out that term that term

755
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: really educated. Yeah, such a noble term exactly he thought it.

756
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 2: He thought of it as an atom bomb that exploded

757
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: in the soul of humankind and that but it had

758
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: to be continually renewed. So they tried it out on

759
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: these soldiers, especially the less educated, because they felt those

760
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: were the equivalent of Chinese peasants. And several and at

761
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: the end of it, twenty one US and I think

762
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 2: of possibly a few Australian soldiers decided they would rather

763
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: not return to their countries and would and they had

764
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: become communists or at least wanted to try living in China.

765
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 2: And this caused this. In addition to fifty nine pilots

766
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: for the US Air Force who made these confessions. They

767
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: made false confessions to having committed war crimes in front

768
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: of the news cameras, newsreel cameras of the day. This

769
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: caused in nineteen fifty three the head of the CIA

770
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 2: and the head of the Secretary of State and the

771
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: President of the US to secretly fund a program called

772
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: mk Ultra, which took hold in nineteen fifty three. They

773
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,720
Speaker 2: developed this elaborate structure to fund it secretly through these

774
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 2: cutout organizations. In my research, I've discovered several that nobody

775
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 2: really knew about before. And their research covered one hundred

776
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: something like one hundred and forty nine sub projects. And

777
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: they specialized in sort of combinations of dragging people, including

778
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 2: with LSD pushing into extreme sleeplessness, and also using hypnosis,

779
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: and then combining the three of those and with many

780
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: other techniques to see whether a human being could be

781
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 2: basically alienated from themselves sufficiently to perhaps become a Manchurian candidate,

782
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: meaning they could they would carry out a mission without knowing,

783
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 2: without having any memory of it, Like could you turn

784
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: somebody into basically losing could you get somebody to lose

785
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: their agency completely? And become alienated from themselves and so

786
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: dissociated that with a snap of the fingers, they would

787
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: go into that state and then they would come back

788
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: when you wanted them to, and they would have no

789
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: memory of what they had done, perhaps assassinations, things like that.

790
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: So this was a really dark program. Many, you know,

791
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: people died as a result of it, and later the

792
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 2: CIA discontinued it in about ten there was about ten years.

793
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: Did the subjects or the people who were being who

794
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: were used within the program, did they realize Rebecca what

795
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: they were getting into or were they misled?

796
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 2: Well, the subjects mostly didn't know that they were in

797
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: this program. No, I mean they were sometimes mental patients.

798
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes they were mostly people who had no legal recourse

799
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: against what was the experiments being done in them. The scientists,

800
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 2: some of them knew very well, some of them were witting,

801
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: or some of them knew, but they they thought of

802
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 2: it as their patriotic duty, or they had some suspicion,

803
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't quite confirmed because they were working

804
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 2: someone like BF Skinner actually he you know, sometimes they

805
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: would just fund they thought of leading scientists who were

806
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 2: doing behavioral research. So maybe the scientists would half know

807
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: that this Human Ecology Fund was actually the CIA, but

808
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: in other cases they really had no idea. So because

809
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 2: they would want to fund a left wing scientist who

810
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 2: maybe didn't really want to participate in this program, but

811
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: they're they're ended up participating.

812
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 1: I heard you quote Socrates on Rogan. It's funny because

813
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: in a part of my thesis, I just put you know,

814
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: the big like because trying to understand thyself. You know,

815
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: the beginning of wisdom is to know thyself or whatever

816
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: he said, And my PhD is essentially around self awareness.

817
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 1: But it's funny how the questions that we ask now,

818
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: most of the questions that we ask about who humans

819
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: are and how we are and why we are the

820
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: way we are, and how the mind works and how

821
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: we work as an organism among other organisms, like not

822
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,479
Speaker 1: a lot's changed in some ways from those questions from

823
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: two and a half thousand years ago. I wonder how

824
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,439
Speaker 1: much we know about the mind that we didn't know then?

825
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: That is a good question, I mean, in some ways,

826
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: in some ways, uh, I think the I think that

827
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 2: the investigation of the mind was profound then. I mean,

828
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 2: Socrates is an example. You could go back. We don't

829
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: always have evidence, but we can we have a sense

830
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 2: of the types of explorations that were and in some ways,

831
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: perhaps with cultural rituals that actually, you know, maybe I don't.

832
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 2: I'm not an expert on this, but I could speculate

833
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: that there's a kind of wisdom that was possible that

834
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 2: actually gets becomes more difficult to achieve in modern societies

835
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 2: where we don't have coming of age rituals, we have

836
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,879
Speaker 2: the ritual aspect of life is cut out. And that's

837
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: another that's another motivating reason I had for becoming an anthropologist.

838
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 2: I was curious, you know, what was what would it

839
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 2: be like? Is it possible to think of a life

840
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 2: that was I was structured by meaningful transitions instead of

841
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 2: these kind of chaotic world that I seem too that

842
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: you know, that I was faced by. But on the

843
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 2: other hand, we do have certain advances and I guess

844
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 2: understandings of certainly brand chemistry is more advanced. And also

845
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 2: there's this yeah, go ahead, sorry.

846
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, when you like you personally,

847
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: you look at a person or something that's going on,

848
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: and obviously you're a renowned research or an academic, and

849
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: you know, with a very with respect high IQ and

850
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: all of that. But at the same time, you're a

851
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: person who's done good stuff and bad stuff and made

852
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: mistakes and got things right and got things wrong. And

853
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: which is the lens that you analyze? Is A is

854
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 1: it A is it a hybrid? Like when you're looking

855
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: at stuff, do you ever rely on gut intuition? Just

856
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,399
Speaker 1: like I don't know, you know that that not politically

857
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: scientific kind of lens because I do. But maybe.

858
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 2: No, no, I completely. I actually think I'd be paralyzed

859
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 2: if I didn't. And I've always done that ever since

860
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: I was in college. I would use my intuition, or

861
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 2: I will even just when I wanted to write a paper,

862
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,919
Speaker 2: I would just go to sleep. Half I'd go. I'd

863
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 2: read as much as I could go half to sleep,

864
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 2: put a notepad by my paper, and you go into

865
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 2: a state called the hypnagogic state, something like that. And

866
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 2: I'd always have an idea that would come to me

867
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 2: when I was half sleeping that I couldn't even remember,

868
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 2: and then when I woke up, there'd be written down,

869
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: like some word or some little phrase, and then I

870
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: would use that. And like even now I have to say,

871
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: because it's so intimidating to think that you have to

872
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 2: read every single thing, contemplate everything, and sort of be

873
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 2: complete in your knowledge, I mean at every level. So

874
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: I always think of it almost like like I think

875
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: it's the areas where I'm weak or I feel a

876
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 2: kind of stupid, or I just don't get things that

877
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: are actually a strength, because that makes me want to

878
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 2: investigate it. Like this doesn't totally make sense to me.

879
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: It's almost like you have to have confidence in your gaps,

880
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 2: in the things that you that you're just not getting,

881
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 2: and that maybe that's worth investigating.

882
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: And I know we've got to go. But it's so

883
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: funny because really, when you think about marketing and branding

884
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: and selling stuff, of course this is like all advertising

885
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: and marketing is designed to manipulate people's thoughts or feelings

886
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: to buy whatever it is that they probably hadn't thought

887
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 1: about buying. So this is kind of low level mind control.

888
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: I feel maybe I'm wrong, but it's like, you know,

889
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: I talk to people about like a serial pack on

890
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: the front of the cereal boxes, it's not information, it's

891
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: it's a story. And on the back in that tiny

892
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: little box down the bottom right hand corner, in that

893
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: tiny little writing. That's where the information is. And if

894
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: they wanted you to see the actual information about the

895
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: contents of the box, it'd be on the front in

896
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: big writing. And you know, so the front is mind control,

897
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: the front is coercion manipulation. Hey, look there's an Olympian

898
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: on the front of our pack, and it's got all

899
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: these stars and ticks and all this amazing shits and

900
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: it's going to make you five years younger. You should

901
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: get this. I mean, it's kind of, if not control,

902
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: it's definitely mind influence. Right, yeah, totally.

903
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 2: But I think the more you know, more amazing than

904
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 2: that is that it works. It still works even if

905
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 2: you can identify it you still it still works on me,

906
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 2: like I want to look like an Olympian or on

907
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: some level I am buying into it. There's actually such

908
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: an interesting history too on the where the emotional cell

909
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: comes from, you know, selling through emotion as well as

910
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 2: through information, and they're quite combined. But yeah, we do.

911
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: We are subject to conditioning. It's sort of a human

912
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 2: a deeply human quality. And the thing I like about

913
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: the writer chess Off Milosh is he he just really

914
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 2: and some great writers I think what makes them. Great

915
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 2: is that they understand how deeply we are shaped by

916
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: these things, even if we recognize it while it's happening.

917
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah, so oh, I talked to you for

918
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 1: a long time. All right. The Instability of Truth, brainwashing,

919
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 1: mind control and hyper persuasion is out now. Is it

920
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 1: available on audio? Rebecca, Yes, there's a really nice audio recording.

921
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: And I think her name's Patty Nolan, but she does

922
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: she's like a voice artist. She's Okay, I'm going to

923
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: get the book today. I'm going to listen to the

924
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 1: book today, and then I'm going to send you another

925
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: request in a few months and you'll go, no, I'm

926
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: not going on that Australian show again. That was painful,

927
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: but I don't care. I'm going to badger you.

928
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 2: It's been so fun to talk to you.

929
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Tip Are

930
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: you interested?

931
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, come back.

932
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: I think'll be back. Yeah, we'll say goodbye affair. But Rebecca,

933
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: we really appreciate you. What time is it where you are.

934
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 2: It's about six in the evening or I guess wait eighteen.

935
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: I don't know what system aster in Australia uses. It's

936
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 2: in the evening.

937
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, eighteen hundred six o'clock, six pm. We'll say goodbye affair,

938
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: but for the moment. Rebecca, thanks so much for being

939
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: on the You project.

940
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It was wonderful to talk to you.