1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: When I read this story in the Weekend Australian a 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,559 Speaker 1: couple of weekends ago, I couldn't believe that a Victoria 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: Cross recipient, a man who grew up in the Mildura area, 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: is his body is lying in a crate in Russia. 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: The story of Private Samuel Pis is or he is 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: one of our one hundred and one Victoria Cross recipients. 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: And a campaign has been launched by the RSL here 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: in Esa and it's led by Adelaide historian Damian Wright, 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: who has written a book called Australia's Lost Heroes Anzaks 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: in the Russia Civil War nineteen nineteen. Damien is on 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: the line. 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning, Matthew. 13 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about Samuel Peas. 14 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: So, Samuel Piers grew up in Victoria, Ultura, as you say, 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 2: two weeks before his eighteenth birthday, he volunteered to join 16 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: the Australian Imperial Force and go to the war, the 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: First World War, which was one of the time. He 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: served on Gli League and the Western Front, where he 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: was wounded and decorated for bravery. And at the end 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: of the First World War he was one of thousands 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: of Australians waiting for a troopship home. The Australians were 22 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 2: a low priority for shipping and at the time the 23 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 2: British Army was looking for recruits for their North Russia 24 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 2: Relief Force, which was being sent to take part in 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: the Russian Civil War which was raging at the time, 26 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 2: and Samuel was about one of about one hundred and 27 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: ten Australians to volunteer. And the day that he sailed 28 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: for Russia, he received a letter from his newly married 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: English wife to say that he was going to be 30 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: a father. And he took part in a number of 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: battles in North Russia and quite tragically he was killed 32 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: in action on twenty ninth of August nineteen nineteen and 33 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross, the highest military awards that 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: there is for an Australian soldier. 35 00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: What did he do to deserve that? 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: So the Australians were making an attack on a fortified 37 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: Red Army position and they were held up by a blockhouse, 38 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 2: which is an above ground bunker made of blogs reinforced logs, 39 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 2: and Samuel, on his own initiative, crawled forward, cut through 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: barbed wire with some y cutters, under fire, charged the 41 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: blockhouse single handed, took out the blockhouse with grenades, and 42 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: a moment later was mortally wounded by the last shot 43 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: that was fired in the battle, and he bled to 44 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: death in the arms of his mate only one or 45 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: two minutes later. 46 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: Oh gee, that's awful. And you talk about receiving the 47 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: letter from his new wife and their daughter was born 48 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: six months after his death. But in the article which 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: David Pemberthy wrote here from five double A, of course, 50 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: in the Australian, he's said, I'm coming home to you, dear. 51 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: I hope it won't be too long before we have 52 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: our home of our own, Australia. I'd give ten years 53 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: of my life to be with you for good now, 54 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: dearest one, if I'm dying to hear from you. This 55 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 1: is about the worst country I've ever been in, or 56 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: ever hoped to be in, dearest girl, in all the world. 57 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: I'll have to close this with all the love in 58 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: my heart. And just tragic that he should have enlisted 59 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: to go, but even more tragic he was buried, I understand, 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: but then exhumed at some stage for his body to 61 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: be in a grape now. 62 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: Yes, so it's quite tragic had only just turned twenty 63 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: two at the time of his death, and he received 64 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: no further letters from his widow from when he sailed 65 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 2: for Russia, and those letters made tragic reading. So he 66 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: was buried by his mate on the battlefield. But as 67 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: access to the Soviet Union was closed in the late 68 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: nineteen twenties, the location of the grave was lost and 69 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: no longer known. So a colleague of mine in Russia 70 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: that I've been working with for some years now was 71 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: looking for the grave, and in twenty and eighteen he 72 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: found an unne grave which he believed to contain the 73 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: remains of Samuel Pierce. The grave was exhumed and the 74 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: remains forensically examined and there were a number of significant 75 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: indicators that the remains are those of Samuel Pears And 76 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: at the moment the remains are held him a crate 77 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: awaiting government action for DNA identification. And there's quite a 78 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: few political and logistical stalemates at the moment which we 79 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: are trying to overcome as part of the Samuel pearce 80 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: VC burial campaign. 81 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: So and those are He left the Australian Army and 82 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: enlisted with the British Army and now neither side wants 83 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: to know about it. Neither country wants to know about it. 84 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: Yes, so the Australians that volunteered to serve in the 85 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: North Russia Relief Force. One of the conditions of discharge 86 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 2: from the Australian Army was that there had to be 87 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: single So Samuel got around that requirement by discharging from 88 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: the Australian Army and the following day enlisting in the 89 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: British Army and then three days later getting married to 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: his widow Kitty. So Australia claimed him as a Victoria Cross. 91 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: His medals are in the War Memorial in Canberra. Parliament 92 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: Department of Veterans Affairs all count him as an Australian 93 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 2: Victoria Cross. But for the purposes of now the diplomatic 94 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: situation regarding the remains, the Australian government has deferred all 95 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: responsibility to the British government, which creates additional issues in 96 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: terms of access to the remains to conduct the DNA matching. 97 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: So it's been five sixty years now and unfortunately still 98 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: in that crate. There's been quite a lot of political 99 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: inaction but also a bit of pingponging and the Australians 100 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: are deferring to the British whilst at the same time 101 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: claiming him as an Australian Victoria Cross. So I don't 102 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 2: believe that's justified or correct. Australia can't have it both ways. 103 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: We can't claim him as our Victoria Cross recipient. But 104 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 2: now that remains have been found which are likely his, say, well, 105 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 2: we have no responsibility over the remains. So that's what 106 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: we are lobbying the Israelian government for it either take 107 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: some mattion themselves or to permit a third party forensic 108 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: pathology service to do the DNA matching. Once the matching 109 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: is done, then we can take further action from them. 110 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: And you're sure it's sim because of the injuries he 111 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: sustained in the conflict in World War One before his death, 112 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: and you've matched up those injuries. He were shot in 113 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: a towe. I understand yes. 114 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 2: So we do know from his Australian Army Service record 115 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: that his middle toe right foot was amputated before he 116 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 2: went to Russia, and we know under forensic examination that 117 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: the middle toe right foot was missing from the remains 118 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 2: which we're recovered. There are a number of other significant indicators. 119 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: We have a nineteen twenty five hand drawn map showing 120 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: the location of the grave and also a nineteen nineteen 121 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: aerial photograph and a number of father indicated, so we're 122 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 2: quite confident that it is him. And Samuel actually has 123 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: a niece here in Adelaide, Wendy, who is going to 124 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: be a candidate for the DNA matching, so there's a 125 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: local connection to the story. 126 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: Wonderful would he come back to Adelaide, would Adelaide be 127 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: his resting place or will he go to Mildura if 128 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: we can get him back. 129 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: So Richard Samuel's grandson whom I traveled to Russia with 130 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: in nineteen nineteen for the one hundredth anniversary of Samuel's death, 131 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: So we were able to stand at the spot where 132 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: he died on the one hundredth anniversary of his bravery 133 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: and unfortunate death, and we were the first Australians to 134 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: visit the spot nine hundred years. So once the situation 135 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: is resolved, Richard would like the remains to be brought 136 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: back to Australia. All the other alternatives is that they 137 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: be buried with full military honors at a Commonwealth War 138 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: grave cemetery. In archangel in Northern Russia. So that's down 139 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: the line. But it's an indignity for him to remain 140 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: in this plastic crate for now more than five years. 141 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: So we are actively lobbying for action. 142 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And who's that on now? I suppose the 143 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: Defense min is the Richard Miles. 144 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: No, so it's Department of Veterans of Minister Killo. So 145 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: we've had some correspondence with him and I've just sent 146 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: off another letter to him last week, so we're hoping 147 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: to get a better response than what we have received 148 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: so far. I understand his position. He's according a bit 149 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: of a diplomatic political situation with regards to the remains. 150 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: But the situation is that Australia claims him as an 151 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: Australian Victoria Cross and we have a moral obligation and 152 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: duty to take action or do whatever we need to 153 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 2: do to facilitate further resolution. We can't just leave him 154 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: in that crate for several year. 155 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. What is Richard's preferred outcome? Would he like 156 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: him return to Australia as the first option? 157 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: Richard would like him his grandfather brought back to Australia 158 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: to be buried in Wildura. Whether or not that will 159 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: be possible we will see, but that is certainly his 160 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: preferred option. 161 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: Why would that not be possible for the Australian government 162 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: to do realistically? I mean, we can do almost anything, 163 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: can't we if it just needs someone to make a decision. 164 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: So it's a long standing principle that Australian wars are 165 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: buried in the country where they fell. So there's also 166 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: an implication that is the first Australian to be discovered 167 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: as a casualty in the Russian Civil War, so he 168 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 2: didn't actually die in the first or board several months later. 169 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: So the Australian government is operating under a century old 170 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: agreement from the early nineteen twenties where the Australian Gunment 171 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: essentially yielded responsibility for its own war dad to the 172 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 2: British Commonwealth War Grave. So where a grave is discovered 173 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: in France or Belgium, it's quite straightforward what has to happen, 174 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: and the remains are buried there at the closest military cemetery. 175 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: It's never happened in Russia before the last British military 176 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 2: burial or indeed Australian military burial in Russia during the 177 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: Civil War period was in nineteen twenty. So one of 178 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 2: the problems is that it's unprecedented and there are no 179 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 2: protocols and procedures to follow. So that's part of the 180 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: difficulty that we're facing. 181 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: Indeed, wow, some hurdles. Indeed, Damien, thank you for your 182 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: time this morning. This was fascinating and well, as you say, 183 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: just cannot remain in a crate and either either back 184 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: home or if the convention is he's bury there then 185 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: so be it. But he certainly does need that and 186 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: deserve that with full military honors. Thank you for coming on. 187 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: Thank you, Mattic. 188 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: Good luck with it, Damian Wright, author of Australia's Lost Heroes, 189 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: and stay in touch, Daman, let us know, let us 190 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: know what the outcome is. Certainly all right, appreciate that 191 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: Australia's Lost Heroes is his book. And what a fascinating story. 192 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: This man who grew up in Mildura, went off enlisted 193 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: with the Australian Imperial Force and served in World War One, 194 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: was discharged at the end of that, survived World War 195 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: One both Gallipoli in the Western Front and that takes 196 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: some doing, and then was killed in action in Russia, 197 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: fighting with the Brits winds of Victoria Cross and is 198 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: now in a plastic crate which is not good enough 199 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: and far from it.