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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian News.

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Speaker 2: You can Trust Opinions that matter. Now Ben Fordham comments.

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Speaker 3: And now we have the bombshell witness statement from the

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Speaker 3: retired nurse Judy Seeing describing what looked like a body

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Speaker 3: in the back of a car.

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Speaker 1: The country's leading commercial radio broadcast to Ben Fordham has

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Speaker 1: been following the Bromwyn Winfield case. We've got good history.

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Speaker 1: Ben's dad, the late Great John Fordham, was a giant

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Speaker 1: in the media and he took me under his wing

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Speaker 1: when I was a young newspaper reporter thirty five years

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Speaker 1: ago during the Teacher's pat investigation in twenty eighteen, when

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Speaker 1: John and Ben saw the injustice in Lynn's case, they

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Speaker 1: pulled strings at the highest levels to ensure that it

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Speaker 1: got the full attention of Mick Fuller, the then commissioner

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Speaker 1: of the New South Wales Police Force. Ben played snippets

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Speaker 1: of Judy Singh's interview with me on his top rating program.

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Speaker 1: Was it possible for you to actually identify him as

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Speaker 1: John Winfield when you.

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Speaker 2: Looked in, Oh yeah, was he definitely him?

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Speaker 3: Judy felt suspicious, but she didn't immediately act on it.

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Speaker 3: In the days that followed, she didn't know Bronwin was missing,

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Speaker 3: but when rumors started spreading that on when had disappeared,

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Speaker 3: Judy says she knew she had to tell someone. She

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Speaker 3: says she went to Ballona police.

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Speaker 4: I talked to the ballon and police first, and they

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Speaker 4: took me behind the counter.

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Speaker 1: Did you form an impression then of how seriously or

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Speaker 1: not they were taking it?

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Speaker 2: Hardly? Interested?

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Speaker 1: Hardly?

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Speaker 2: I can't understand why that would be.

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Speaker 5: Almost had to beg them to let me say something.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel better for having disclosed these things?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: No, he died recently, so and I'm taking this to

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Speaker 1: the grave.

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Speaker 6: Always some relief when you can get something out, you know.

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Speaker 3: What's becoming clear is that the early investigation into Bronman's

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Speaker 3: disappearance was not handled properly. Police were too quick to

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Speaker 3: believe the storyline that a mother of two had just

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Speaker 3: packed up and left and walked down on her children.

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Speaker 1: Then also told his vast audience a truth which might

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Speaker 1: surprise listeners. He revealed that the Bromwin podcast investigation.

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Speaker 3: Has been running for one month and in that time

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Speaker 3: he's not been contacted by anyone at New South Wales Police.

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Speaker 3: Nobody's reached out to him to see if he's uncovered

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Speaker 3: new information. Nobody's checked to see if maybe, just maybe

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Speaker 3: he's found evidence that could solve the mystery of who

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Speaker 3: could have killed Bronwin or what happened to her. It's

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Speaker 3: been radio silence, no calls, no emails, no inquiries, nothing

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Speaker 3: and that should change today.

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Speaker 1: But at seven twenty pm on Thursday June twenty, a

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Speaker 1: couple of hours after the release of episode seven, Assistant

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Speaker 1: Commissioner of Police Mick Fitzgerald emailed to request contact details

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Speaker 1: for retired nurse Judy Singh. I immediately shared those details

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Speaker 1: with Fitzgerald. Detectives are going to be spending so time

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Speaker 1: with Judy Singh. Finally they should take a statement from her.

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Speaker 1: Ben Fordham had the last word.

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Speaker 3: Well done, Mick Fitzgerald, and I'll keep you updated on

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Speaker 3: this case.

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Speaker 1: On the Nine Networks Today show, host Karl Stefanovic talked

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Speaker 1: to Madison Walsh, Bromwin's second cousin, who has been on

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Speaker 1: this case with me since the start of the podcast. Madison,

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Speaker 1: your family's been watching this.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, for thirty one years. We have had no real

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Speaker 7: movement within this case. Nothing's happened, and our family has

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Speaker 7: felt lost.

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Speaker 8: What is that? That must be torture?

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Speaker 7: Oh, look, it's it's hard. I mean I didn't know

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Speaker 7: brom when she disappeared ten years before I was born. However,

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Speaker 7: I've grown up with it. I've witnessed what my family

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Speaker 7: has gone through. I know what they're still going through.

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Speaker 7: Last night, when the episode released where this new information

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Speaker 7: and came out, they didn't know about it, and it

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Speaker 7: was both confronting and raw to witness that and to

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Speaker 7: see how much that affected them, because at this stage

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Speaker 7: you don't think that anything more would come out.

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Speaker 2: How are they?

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Speaker 9: They're good.

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Speaker 7: This is motivating for them as well, because this is

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Speaker 7: something new, something that the police can hopefully use now

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Speaker 7: to finally do something nice.

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Speaker 8: To see Mats and all the best of the family.

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Speaker 1: Just twelve hours earlier, Maddie sat with Bromman's brother Andy

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Speaker 1: Reid and his wife Michelle in their home in the Shire.

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Speaker 1: She drove there to answer their questions and help them

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Speaker 1: listen as Jude sings account of what she saw was

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Speaker 1: played through episode seven. Andy and Michelle heard it for

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Speaker 1: the first time as the episode unfolded. Here's Maddie who

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Speaker 1: used her iPhone to make a recording.

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Speaker 7: It's all very, very hard to listen to, that's for sure.

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Speaker 9: That unbelievable that this poor lady's had to live with that. Yeah,

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Speaker 9: it's breast keys up. Then she's going to take it

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Speaker 9: to a grave.

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Speaker 10: If you were going to bed, why would you have

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Speaker 10: your surfboard in the car?

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Speaker 7: Well, that's what I was thinking, And then there was

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Speaker 7: like maybe he paddled out or something.

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Speaker 11: Murray used to say to me all the time, every

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Speaker 11: time there's massive floods in the hinterland. Murray used to

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Speaker 11: fedigm religiously, religiously. He used to tell me about how

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Speaker 11: he used to he watched for the news reports, always

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Speaker 11: watching the news. I think her body's going to turn up. Yeah,

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Speaker 11: it flushed out in one of the estuaries.

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Speaker 9: I remember. Glenn used to say to me, mate, do

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Speaker 9: you never know what will turn up?

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Speaker 1: Michelle read aloud a message that she had just received

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Speaker 1: from the retired detective sergeant Glenn Taylor, who began a

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Speaker 1: thorough police investigation in nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 10: He's just said it quite stunning news coming out of

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Speaker 10: what a witness saw apparently on the night of Broman's disappearance,

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Speaker 10: and I said, yeah, we're listening to it as we speak.

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Speaker 9: We are shattered, but hopeful.

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Speaker 11: It doesn't even feel like belief because we've just knowned

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Speaker 11: for so long that the vastard did something that night.

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Speaker 9: The systems just filed for so long.

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Speaker 1: Shortly before the release of the very first episode in

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Speaker 1: this podcast series, and he met with detectives led by

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Speaker 1: Nigel Warren of the Unsolved Homicide Unit, and here to

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Speaker 1: remind you is a bit from episode one.

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Speaker 9: Basically said, well, their hands are tied.

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Speaker 1: We can't do any more than what we've done.

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Speaker 12: And we don't have any new evidence as it steds.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, okay, he said, going Look, I cannot apologize enough

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Speaker 11: for how badly the original investigation was handled.

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Speaker 2: They've got no intention of puting any more work into it.

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Speaker 1: When you walked away with Michelle from that meeting six

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, what was your view of what they were

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Speaker 1: doing on the Roman police investigation.

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Speaker 9: Nothing? Nothing unless someone came forward.

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Speaker 10: Unless there was something more to add.

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Speaker 11: He mentioned to me that they had twenty six open cases,

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Speaker 11: so there's twenty five poor people out there that.

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Speaker 9: Are worse off than we are because we've quit.

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Speaker 1: You given what you know, Now, what do you want

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Speaker 1: them to do?

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Speaker 11: They need to go and speak to Juty get correct

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Speaker 11: statements like they should have done the first two times

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Speaker 11: she went there. The poor woman in ninety three, the

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Speaker 11: only night that he had access to that vehicle. Wow, wow,

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Speaker 11: like to meet her.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen the video?

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Speaker 9: Yes?

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Speaker 10: Yeah, that's pretty hard to look at.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 11: Michelle always knew something went wrong that night, but we

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Speaker 11: never really had the proof as hard as we did.

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Speaker 9: Push diskin.

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Speaker 1: Maddie and I were in the Tuong Public Library and

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Speaker 1: Brisbane and interviewing Mel Taylor, Devin Murray's daughter.

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Speaker 2: She worked nearby.

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Speaker 1: She came and saw us after she finished work and

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Speaker 1: Mel was just describing what she saw as a twelve

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Speaker 1: year old going through that house mate. She's the only

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Speaker 1: person that remembers this bedstrip The beds were stripped of

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Speaker 1: their sheets.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I've never heard of that until Mel said it.

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Speaker 1: What I think it shows is that even twelve year

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Speaker 1: old kids should be interviewed by cops. Would Bromwin have

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Speaker 1: let the children sleep in a stripped bed?

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Speaker 2: That is a bed without sheets.

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Speaker 9: Never.

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Speaker 10: Crystal says in her statement that Lauren woke up and

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Speaker 10: went in and found a mum crying in the bedroom

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Speaker 10: and then her mum said, come on, darling, go back

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Speaker 10: to bed or whatever, and she went and tucked her.

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Speaker 9: In and said, I'll see you in the morning.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, So you don't tuck someone in if there's no bedding.

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Speaker 2: How did Judy present to you?

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Speaker 1: From what she said?

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Speaker 10: And Kerry, Oh, totally one hundred percent telling the truth.

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Speaker 5: Why would anyone make that up.

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Speaker 10: She's seeing something on the night that nobody.

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Speaker 9: Else knew about.

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Speaker 11: There's no reason for them to fabricate anything that we've

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Speaker 11: heard tonight.

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Speaker 9: I just feel for Judy. The poor woman has gone.

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Speaker 11: At the police station twice and she's just been dis

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Speaker 11: garden and they haven't even taken us seriously on a

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Speaker 11: missing person's case.

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Speaker 9: What's wrong with these people?

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Speaker 10: I thought she was really authentic because she could be

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Speaker 10: the key to solve.

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Speaker 9: Him what happened.

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Speaker 10: We're very grateful, really, and we believe her wholeheartedly.

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Speaker 9: You can't make that sort of stuff up.

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Speaker 1: If this drive that she had witnessed was around midnight,

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Speaker 1: how does that fit with what Murray saw at ten

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Speaker 1: forty pm. What was he doing on the ten forty

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Speaker 1: pm trip?

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Speaker 7: What I'm thinking is he filled the boot with heavy things.

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Speaker 9: He started wiring the boot down.

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Speaker 11: Then he's got in the car and then going shit,

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Speaker 11: the cars nearly empty.

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Speaker 9: The last thing I had to do.

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Speaker 11: Is put a body in his car and it's going

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Speaker 11: to run out of fuel.

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Speaker 7: And on that trip, that first trip he made, was

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Speaker 7: trying to scope out he might put her. Got close

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Speaker 7: to petrol station, was like, I need to fill up,

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Speaker 7: fills up.

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Speaker 11: And then he's come back with petrol cars full of petrol.

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Speaker 7: Then goes back home and then that's when.

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Speaker 8: He goes down grown up with her.

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Speaker 11: Then he would have had to have come back, and

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Speaker 11: then he's come back got the kids at some stage.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think the surfboard would have been in

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Speaker 1: the car? It is an obvious question and it raises

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Speaker 1: mccarbre thoughts and ideas. Judy Singh is adamant that a

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Speaker 1: surfboard was lying in the car from the back seat

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Speaker 1: across to the front seat, and that something resembling a

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Speaker 1: body wrapped in a sheet was on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the back seat behind the front passenger seat.

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Speaker 2: When John flew to Ballona in the.

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Speaker 1: Late afternoon of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three. His

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Speaker 1: friend John Watson picked John Winfield up at the airport.

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Speaker 1: They went first to the local police station in Balin.

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Speaker 1: John went to the station to check whether there were

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Speaker 1: any orders preventing him from approaching Bromwin and the house

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Speaker 1: that they had lived in together until their separation. John

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Speaker 1: Winfield went in John Watson's car. John Watson and John

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Speaker 1: Winfield then went from the police station in Ballina to

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Speaker 1: pick up Jody's friend Becky McGuire, and Becky says she

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Speaker 1: witnessed John entering the house when Bromwin opened the front door.

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Speaker 1: A short time later, John drove Becky back to her

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Speaker 1: place in the Winfield family's Ford Falcon.

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Speaker 2: Then John returned to the house alone.

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Speaker 1: You'll hear more about John's visit to the police station

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Speaker 1: in a later episode when we look at John's record

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Speaker 1: of interview with the former police detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor.

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Speaker 1: That interview was done in nineteen ninety eight, five years

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Speaker 1: after Bromwin's disappearance. If Judy sings witness account is accurate,

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Speaker 1: John's surfboard has gone into the car that night there

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Speaker 1: are creeks and water holes.

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Speaker 2: In the Lenox Head area.

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Speaker 1: John wouldn't have had a lot of time because he

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Speaker 1: had to get on the road to Sydney. He drove

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Speaker 1: through the night and arrived in the mid morning.

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Speaker 2: In the Shire.

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Speaker 1: Back then, it was a good nine to eleven hour

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Speaker 1: drive depending on conditions. Lake Ainsworth, a popular swimming and

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Speaker 1: picnicking place for Lenox families and visitors, is only a

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Speaker 1: ten minute or so drive from Sandstone Crescent. Andy has

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Speaker 1: speculated that the surfboard was in the car because John

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Speaker 1: needed to float Bromwin's body out into the water.

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Speaker 11: He wouldn't use the surfboard to float a body out

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Speaker 11: into the middle of a creek or something and then

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Speaker 11: be able to dump it off the board and then

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Speaker 11: come back to the house.

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Speaker 1: At a place such as Lake Ainsworth. In Andy's mind,

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Speaker 1: his sister her body has been put into a large surfboard.

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Speaker 2: Bag with weights or blocks.

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Speaker 1: Inside it, then towed by a leg rope late at

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Speaker 1: night into the still water and rolled over the side.

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Speaker 1: The weights would take the bag down to the murky depths.

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Speaker 1: But it's only a theory, a speculation based on circumstantial evidence.

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Speaker 1: Something John vehemently denies the theory would explain the presence

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Speaker 1: of the surfboard. You've been through so much over the

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Speaker 1: last thirty one years. I know this podcast has been

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Speaker 1: at times pretty grueling for you because it's explored for you, Andy,

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Speaker 1: parts of your own personal life with your mom Barbara

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Speaker 1: and your stepmother Jennifer, and tensions within the family and

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Speaker 1: so on. How do you feel about the toll it

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Speaker 1: takes on you and Michelle.

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Speaker 2: When this is unfolding.

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Speaker 9: That's been pretty harrowing.

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Speaker 1: We're strong, We're strong, and he said he understood why

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Speaker 1: Maddie and I did not tell him about Judy Singh's

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Speaker 1: revelations before they were published.

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Speaker 12: You've got to do your job.

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Speaker 11: Let's the podcast doesn't work if it's just a bunch

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Speaker 11: of leaked information.

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Speaker 2: I fully understand it.

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Speaker 11: Since we first sat down with you in that cafe Clovelly,

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Speaker 11: I've lived in here.

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Speaker 1: We are five years later, we've all got a bit

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Speaker 1: older made. You're going to have a tough night. I

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Speaker 1: hope you've nursed a beer through all this.

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Speaker 10: So what do you think the police's obligation is.

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Speaker 1: Next, they'll make a bee line for Jude. They will

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Speaker 1: want to get a statement from her. They will want

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Speaker 1: to reconstruct what she describes. They'll go to the Sandstone

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Speaker 1: Crescent and Granite Street. They'll run cars past that house

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Speaker 1: at night with the light on in the car at

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Speaker 1: a slow speed that she described. They'll put something in

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Speaker 1: the back of the car so that that can be filmed,

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Speaker 1: and they'll film what they can see.

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Speaker 2: They'll do all of those sorts of tests.

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Speaker 1: But if they're satisfied that what she described is plausible,

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Speaker 1: they'll then have to make a further submission to the

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Speaker 1: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Andy and I

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Speaker 1: spoke about why people like Judy Singh came forward and

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Speaker 1: how podcasts were like a vacuum cleaner that is drawing

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Speaker 1: up so many potential new leads, tips from people, sources

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Speaker 1: coming out of the woodwork, and the reluctance of police

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Speaker 1: to engage with the same podcasts. They're territorial, they believe

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Speaker 1: that Bromin's all It's murder is their murder.

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Speaker 2: And they don't like intruders.

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Speaker 1: Police are not going to be the go to for

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Speaker 1: people who are dissatisfied, who have been let down by

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Speaker 1: cops in the past, or who are just not going

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Speaker 1: to necessarily trust cops, But who are possibly going to

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Speaker 1: trust me? They just need to catch up with the

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Speaker 1: modern era. How many other missing murdered women have just

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Speaker 1: fallen through the cracks. The next day we heard from

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Speaker 1: other important people in this case. Hello, Glenn Taylor, Glenn,

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Speaker 1: Matt Condon, how are you?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, good Matt.

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Speaker 2: He was shocked by what he heard.

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Speaker 13: Well, you can't get much more serious to crime than

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Speaker 13: a murder, And to allegedly murder a young mother and

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Speaker 13: leave two children behind.

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Speaker 14: It's just a horrendous thought. I'm sure that this information

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Speaker 14: that's now come to light would be very much a

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Speaker 14: priority in any murder investigation.

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Speaker 13: I was actually quite stunned. We may better finally move

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Speaker 13: this investigation forward. I was appalled that so little had

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Speaker 13: been going back in ninety ninety three, and then to

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Speaker 13: hear this latest revelation that this witness duty had actually

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Speaker 13: come to bow on a police station and reported to

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Speaker 13: someone back in nineteen ninety three, that was just astounding.

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Speaker 2: And then it got worse.

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Speaker 13: Usually something of that absolute significant importance would have been

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Speaker 13: acted upon. It would have been an absolute priority to

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Speaker 13: have the lady attend the police station and with her

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Speaker 13: consent to take a statement from her, and we would

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Speaker 13: have some forensics come up and take some photographs about

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Speaker 13: where she was standing and how she would observe this vehicle.

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Speaker 15: From your perspective, is an experienced homicide detective, what sort

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Speaker 15: of weight is carried by this observation by Judy singher well?

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Speaker 14: Checking to make sure that the information is plausible and

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Speaker 14: could be corroborated by other people homicide investigations, it doesn't

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Speaker 14: matter if they're forty years old or even longer. Any

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Speaker 14: information further that comes out is absolutely crucial from what

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Speaker 14: Hidley has found from this lady. I mean, every single

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Speaker 14: thing that she said certainly seems plausible, and she's told

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Speaker 14: other people. It's not something that just come up as

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Speaker 14: a result of the podcast, but certainly when the initial

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Speaker 14: investigation was just so poor, We're not one person was

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Speaker 14: interviewed and there.

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Speaker 13: Was no formal interview of the husband, and then the

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Speaker 13: whole matter was just completely shelved.

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Speaker 5: There's red flags flying everywhere.

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Speaker 12: I've always had.

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Speaker 8: This investigation on the mind.

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Speaker 16: I mean, every time anything would come up, like any

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Speaker 16: human bones, fan or something, I'm always thinking, I'm hopeful

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Speaker 16: to the family that it might be Bromling and the

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Speaker 16: media plays a very vital role in investigations, especially investigations

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Speaker 16: that have been around for a long time, and show

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Speaker 16: there's potential there for people that know things about unsolved

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Speaker 16: longicides to come forward.

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Speaker 15: Back in your day, mate, there was no such thing

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Speaker 15: as a podcast, and suddenly you have this platform to

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Speaker 15: reach millions of people.

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Speaker 14: It's wonderful that it's an opportunity for people further to

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Speaker 14: come forward.

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Speaker 13: These are most serious crimes. There's never been any closure.

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Speaker 13: They can't go to a century and lace and failers

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Speaker 13: or grieve what did actually happen to bromwin Where is she?

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Speaker 13: The deputy state coroner, he was clearly of the view

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Speaker 13: that in.

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Speaker 14: A diutable offense, namely murder had been committed and there

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Speaker 14: was a known person responsible.

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Speaker 13: This is after hearing all the evidence out of a

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Speaker 13: week and numerous numerous documents.

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Speaker 14: Statements be intended, but obviously we didn't have a statement

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Speaker 14: from this new witness duty at the time. It's important

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Speaker 14: that senior Coroner believe that there was sufficient evidence to

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Speaker 14: warrant the DPP considering a charge of murder being laid

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Speaker 14: against mister Winfield. Mister Winfield's obviously got the presumption of innocence.

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Speaker 14: That's there's further developments.

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Speaker 1: Here's Bromlin's half sister, Kim Marshall, who is in Hobart, Tasmania.

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Speaker 1: Kim has been doing it tough. Maddie's recording this call.

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Speaker 17: Just say though, okay, probably nearly midnight, I decided said

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Speaker 17: I'd listened to it, felt very saddened and heartbroken. I

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Speaker 17: was beside myself, and then I did try to ring

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Speaker 17: one or two people, but when I did try to

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Speaker 17: talk to them, that made me burst into tears because

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Speaker 17: I don't like being needy. So I had a big

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Speaker 17: cry with Andrea and then pulled herself together and listened

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Speaker 17: to the rest of it.

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Speaker 1: Do you form a view of Julie's credibility veracity of

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Speaker 1: what she was saying?

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Speaker 17: Yes, most definitely she was aware of her environ so

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Speaker 17: she had a physical thing going on watching a car,

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Speaker 17: But she also had an awareness about the time of

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Speaker 17: the year, the time of the evening, the type of

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Speaker 17: fauna in her view, and also her miscarriage that she

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Speaker 17: was worrying about. So I believe that there's so many

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Speaker 17: factors there that make her recount or her witness account

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Speaker 17: quite valid. But you know what, I'm actually not that

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Speaker 17: surprised because I always knew that there was.

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Speaker 5: Going to be information out there. I knew from day one.

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Speaker 17: That the police were not doing their job. I couldn't

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Speaker 17: even get a seat with Detective Discns. I always knew

401
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 17: there was going to be a number of key witnesses

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Speaker 17: that were out there.

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Speaker 5: It's a small town, but my biggest thing was to

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Speaker 5: actually make sure.

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Speaker 8: That Crystal was all right.

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Speaker 5: But we don't talk about the podcast.

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Speaker 17: Crystal has this way that she wishes to compartmentalize it.

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Speaker 17: She's actually an incredible person because she somehow seems to

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Speaker 17: have put lots of boundaries in place, and she's staying

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Speaker 17: the line. Crystal maintains that she will continue to keep

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Speaker 17: reaching out to her sisters. I know that Lauren is

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Speaker 17: not willing to engage in any conversation.

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Speaker 5: She is not ready to talk.

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Speaker 17: She does not want to entertain the idea that's something

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Speaker 17: of a foul play nature that involves her father.

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Speaker 5: She doesn't want to talk about.

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Speaker 17: That at all, and she's not willing to discuss it

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Speaker 17: with Crystal at all. And then Jody, it's just no reply,

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Speaker 17: no communication.

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Speaker 1: Kim said that while Crystal still referred to her stepfather,

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Speaker 1: John Winfield as Dad.

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Speaker 17: She doesn't feel the wars or the connection, and it's

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Speaker 17: always Crystal that's actually wanting to be reassured or seek

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Speaker 17: reassurance that she's still part of the family. I'm more

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Speaker 17: than happy to disguise that no matter what the outcome is.

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Speaker 5: In regards to.

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Speaker 17: Broman's disappearance, I believe that he was a very cold

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Speaker 17: and calous parent.

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Speaker 1: All of this, the podcast, the curiosity of the public,

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Speaker 1: and the ongoing disclosures are taking a toll.

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Speaker 2: Where Andy contact to before you have listened?

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Speaker 1: What did he say?

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Speaker 18: So?

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Speaker 5: I really don't want to tell the country there?

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Speaker 17: Okay, I don't even know if I want to do

436
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Speaker 17: the podcast any wolf.

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Speaker 2: Andy and Meghan are not going well either.

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Speaker 17: Because Meg is still very upset with Andrew and Michel.

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00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 5: He wants nothing to do with Megan ever. Again. I've

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Speaker 5: recommended that they both go to counseling.

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Speaker 2: Megan, I'm with Maddy.

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Speaker 5: Oh Man Sale, I'm good.

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Speaker 1: How are you Maddie's auntie. Meghan was unsurprised by Judy

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Speaker 1: Singh's account of having got nowhere when she went to

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Speaker 1: local police in nineteen ninety three, Megan played the episode

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Speaker 1: that featured Judy twice and she listened carefully to her story.

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Speaker 19: Never in a million years I think this is going

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Speaker 19: to happen. I mean, whoa episode seven Nelly blew my

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Speaker 19: head off.

450
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 5: I really do believe her.

451
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 19: I don't really feel one hundred cent sure did she

452
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 19: saw from one in that car? What the hell was

453
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 19: wrong with the police not thinking on this information?

454
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: As confronting?

455
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 19: She comes across as one hundred percent credible to me.

456
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 5: I mean, you can tell me just the emotion in

457
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 5: her voice. You should the keet that to.

458
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 7: I did, I did, didn't tell a soul. You were

459
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 7: going to find out eventually, find out eventually when the

460
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 7: time was right, when everyone else found out. I was

461
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 7: on strips instructions. This is not the end, but it's

462
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 7: definitely the start of something else.

463
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 5: What were it goes from here?

464
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, she tried to make people listen.

465
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 5: Her friend she kept at it too.

466
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: Kerry McLean told me that she became emotional when she

467
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: listened to the episode. She followed up reading the stories

468
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: in The Australian and on the website Roman podcast dot com.

469
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 5: It's emotional.

470
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 18: Someone's life has been lost and the poor kids. Just

471
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 18: one little bit of information can uncover all that.

472
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 5: It came from me and then it came from her.

473
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: Yes, when do you reckon? You and her would have

474
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: last had contact probably twenty years ago.

475
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: Did she sound how you remembered her?

476
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely?

477
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 20: Yes.

478
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: For the police to not act on it once in

479
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, it was bad enough. But then she

480
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: goes again with a doctor from New Zealand to the

481
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: Byron Bay police.

482
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 18: Did It's unbelievable. I spoke to them, I don't know

483
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 18: whether it was once or twice, and gave her name

484
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 18: and the names that I knew that she went by,

485
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 18: and her maiden name so they could find her.

486
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 8: So we've tried.

487
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 18: I don't speak negatively of the police, but in this case,

488
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 18: someone dropped the ball.

489
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: It's probable that the police will want to talk to

490
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: you too.

491
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, yes, I'm aware of that.

492
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: If the police asked me for your contact detail, are

493
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: you okay for me to share?

494
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 11: Yeah?

495
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 18: Sure, But that should have happened a long long time ago.

496
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: When lots of information is coming in during a podcast

497
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: series and then you get an email, a random email

498
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: from someone called Jude singing, you don't know the backstory,

499
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: and all she says is I saw him leaving on

500
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: the night you had the light on the car, But

501
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: she doesn't say what she saw in the car in

502
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: her email, she didn't say that. It's very easy when

503
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: you're so busy and there's so much of the material

504
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: coming in, you're doing interviews, you're editing and arranging your

505
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: writing to not actually reply. But because I knew about

506
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: her from you, and I it was I think Judy

507
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: undoubtedly was always going to contact me, because she contacted

508
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 1: me without knowing that you had already contacted me. But

509
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: the difference is that when she did contact me, I

510
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: knew of her and I already had had an understanding

511
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: of the backstory, and it meant that immediately she was

512
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: more credible to me.

513
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: And that's thanks to you.

514
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 18: I'm really pleased that I'm involved in it and something's happened.

515
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 18: It's amazing how everything sort of come together.

516
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: Murray Nolan is a perceptive and friendly bloke. He is

517
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: immediately likable and I reckon he's zen like about some things,

518
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: you know. The star of The Mentalist, Simon Baker.

519
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 6: We used to go surfing together all the time. The

520
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 6: Legs Surfing Crew we'd all surfed together. Wow, you just

521
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 6: lived down the bottom on the street, and now I

522
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 6: see in Saint Crescent.

523
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 21: In reality, Simon is one of our most successful and

524
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 21: in demand international actors. He has his own star on

525
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 21: the Hollywood Walk of Fame and was even once voted

526
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 21: the sexiest man on television. I mean, look around, there's

527
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 21: barely a soul on the beach. It's a busy day

528
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 21: growing up. This was Simon Baker's playground.

529
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 8: This was your house right here, This was here. He's

530
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 8: still serves slangs point occasionally.

531
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: Why did you call him smiley?

532
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 8: Because when is the young bloke?

533
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 6: He used to walk around small all the time. He's

534
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 6: always this happy, a little smile on his face. The

535
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 6: house has been pulled down now.

536
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: Murray Nolan is keen to help this investigation. But what

537
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: you are about to hear him say in his own

538
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: words and voice is probably going to produce.

539
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: Strong reactions in some listeners.

540
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: And Murray knows he's inviting judgment over the things that

541
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: he withheld from police in nineteen ninety three. He's got regrets.

542
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: He's describing a day he was at home. It was

543
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: very late May or early June nineteen ninety three. His

544
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: neighbor John Winfield had been to the police to report

545
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: Bromwin missing days earlier. As a result, Detective Graham diskin

546
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: with the less experienced officer Wayne Tenby, went to Sandstone

547
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: Crescent from the.

548
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: Police running sheets.

549
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: It doesn't appear that they questioned any other neighbors who

550
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,239
Speaker 1: knew things. The detectives only went to the door of

551
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: the property next to Bromwin and John Murray and Deb's

552
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: house and it's where they still live happily thirty one

553
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: years later.

554
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 12: And Murray, I've also read your statement.

555
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: Yes, However, it seems you didn't at the time raise

556
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: any suspicion about that noise the scrape of the vehicle.

557
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety eight, Murray signed off on a written

558
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: statement to the detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor. Glenn Taylor's investigation

559
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: led to a brief of evidence, which went to the

560
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovitch for.

561
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: A week long inquest.

562
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: Murray's statement in that brief of evidence includes key details

563
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: which Murray did not disclose to police back in nineteen

564
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: ninety three when they pulled up in Sandstone Crescent at

565
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: a time when everything was still relatively fresh and just

566
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 1: a fortnight or so after whatever happened on the night

567
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: of Sunday, May sixteenth. The first time I met Karl Milavanovitch,

568
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: it had been fifteen years since his inquest into Broman's

569
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: disappearance and presumed death, but Karl still remembered one of

570
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: Murray's disclosures. Karl clearly believed that this disclosure had weight

571
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: and potential relevance.

572
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: Here it is again from Karl.

573
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 22: And there was some suggestion from a neighbor that they

574
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 22: heard the car reversing down the driveway and scraping on

575
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 22: the ground, though some suggestion there might have been something

576
00:34:59,200 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 22: in the boot.

577
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: She was never found.

578
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: Now that I am back in Sandstone Crescent, dead breaks

579
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: the eyes.

580
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 23: Murray is a very tolerant person and he never sees

581
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 23: wrong in anybody. Really, he knows John's done what he's done.

582
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 23: But Murray is the type of person whereas on the opposite,

583
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 23: like Headley.

584
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 9: You wrong me and I'll wrong you.

585
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

586
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,439
Speaker 23: He's always been that way, and I guess it's either

587
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 23: a good or a bad nature to have.

588
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 4: When she went missing, I never gave told the police

589
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 4: anything because he's my friend.

590
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 8: I never told the police laughing all staying out of it.

591
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 8: Are you listening to yourself? It was that obvious to me.

592
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 8: It was that obvious to me that he'd killed her.

593
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 4: Becauys arrived, not one she's got to miss in twenty eleven,

594
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 4: and I thought, well, almost stay out of this because

595
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 4: resting three or four days like it was that obvious.

596
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 24: What about when Discin started investigating soon after she disappeared?

597
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 8: And now I told him nothing. You can't speak to you.

598
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 4: I don't have a memory of the day, but I

599
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 4: was cooking a lamb in the cockpot. Him and Timmy

600
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 4: dropp up here probably about eleven o'clock one morning.

601
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 8: He just come inside and asking me a new questions?

602
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 12: What do you remember about that conversation?

603
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 8: How sure it was? I could be mistaken. I'm pretty sure.

604
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 6: There's write it down on a spy on notepad they did.

605
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 8: There were no formal statement, you know. I thought that

606
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 8: was a bit unprofessional with but Discoln They were very friendly.

607
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 8: John and discon were very friendly.

608
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 4: How do you know that it's seeing at the back

609
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 4: of here they'd be having coffees or cups of tea

610
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 4: and sitting on their back from the andre What type

611
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 4: pray were you talking about?

612
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 8: And this is like the.

613
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 4: Initial inquiry after his border miss and the detectives have

614
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 4: got involved.

615
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 8: They just seemed to be a bit chumming.

616
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: From his house, Murray could see the detective and his

617
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: neighbor on the verandah of the house that John built.

618
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: He said they would, in his words, yarna way for ages. Now,

619
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: good detectives would argue that this might well be tactical.

620
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that they are naive or being conned

621
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: by a possible murderer. Couldn't have been the really clever

622
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: detective building rapport with the murder suspect.

623
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 8: That could have been.

624
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 12: You say you were immediately of the view that he'd kill.

625
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: We'll got rid of that.

626
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 12: Yes, what had you decided for yourself?

627
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 8: Well, I just what I'm staying out of this. He's

628
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 8: my friend.

629
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 4: I've got to live next door to him, and I'm

630
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 4: going to surf with him, and just what I'm staying

631
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 4: out of this.

632
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:39,959
Speaker 8: But it was just too obvious and I was follow

633
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 8: you mistaken at the time.

634
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 1: Deb's conversation with detectives Graham Diskin and Wayne Temby occurred

635
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 1: separately in nineteen ninety three.

636
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 2: She recalled it like this.

637
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 23: It was an afternoon and him and Wayne Timby were

638
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 23: at the front door. They didn't come in, and they

639
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 23: asked me a couple of questions, very little like what

640
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 23: I knew.

641
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: I remember so.

642
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 23: Them, can't you forensic the car? Can't you go in

643
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 23: and forensic the house? And they go, no, no, no,

644
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 23: it doesn't work like that. We can't just go in

645
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 23: guns a blazing and accuse him of anything.

646
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 8: Just gonna actually said, this is a missing person inquiry

647
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 8: and not a murdering.

648
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 23: That's right, a missing person inquiry. Yeah, And I'm like, nah, no,

649
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 23: he's done something to her, And this is what I'm

650
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 23: saying to them. He was very blase about the whole lot.

651
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,959
Speaker 23: That's why I kept saying to him, but there's something

652
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 23: wrong here. You need to investigate, you need to go

653
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 23: and see the house. It was just like, oh, you know,

654
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 23: I just got to fill out these forms. And he

655
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 23: was literally here probably five or ten minutes. He wasn't

656
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 23: here long. I invited a minute said no, no, no, it's

657
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 23: all right. You didn't even come inside. I was angry

658
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 23: with him.

659
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 8: Actually, they're going to do nothing.

660
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 23: You know, she's missing they're not even going to open

661
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 23: the can of worms and say, right, let's dig into

662
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 23: this further. And if it wasn't for Glenn Taylor, that's

663
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 23: where it still remained today. And I remember Waying Tenby

664
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 23: at the time. He was just probably only a fresh

665
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 23: constant book back then, and he's just sort of standing

666
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 23: behind Disco said, and I remember he told me this.

667
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 23: He said, Oh, well, women do this all the time.

668
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 23: They take off, they get a bit frustrated.

669
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 8: And they just go. And I said, no, she wouldn't

670
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 8: do that. Brahma would never leave her kids.

671
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 23: I said to him, Oh, well, we're treating it like yeah,

672
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 23: miss in person until we have any other events. They

673
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 23: believed everything John had told them, and the story he

674
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 23: told them was that she got picked up that night

675
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 23: by a car. Apparently she'd gone into the bedroom, made.

676
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 9: A phone call.

677
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 8: Ten minutes later a car picture up.

678
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 23: Because he told me this, and I said to him

679
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 23: at the time, well, did you see who it was? No,

680
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 23: did you go and check who she got in the

681
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 23: car with. Where were you when she left the house?

682
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 23: And he said, I was watching TV at the other

683
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 23: end of the house. I said, but John, she could

684
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 23: have got in the car with anybody. I can't believe

685
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 23: he wouldn't have even looked to see. This is the

686
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 23: story he was spinning to the police and to myself.

687
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 8: You went home, when you come home.

688
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 25: While den was talking to Discount, you didn't mind that

689
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 25: she was talking to Discoon.

690
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 8: Not at all.

691
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 4: Now, I sure would have probably told Disco at the time,

692
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 4: But then Discins was pretty short of me the question anyway,

693
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 4: like it was just like he was walked in and

694
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 4: said the lay next door's gone missing. There was any

695
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 4: signs of violence or anything. No, I never saw any violence,

696
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 4: and I didn't So.

697
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 24: When was the first time that a detective heard about

698
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 24: the car rolling down the hill.

699
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:19,959
Speaker 2: And the lightspeaking? Offered?

700
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: We established that it was indeed five years later, when

701
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor took the case over in nineteen

702
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: ninety eight. Murray Nolan's police statement is dated September of

703
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: that year.

704
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 24: Do you think that if Discot had come in, sat

705
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 24: you down, or asked you to come down the police

706
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 24: station and I really wanted to understand what had happened

707
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 24: and questioned you in ninety three, would you have still

708
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 24: been silent?

709
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 8: Let me phrase your question, Sorry, what you said.

710
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 24: Before, was that discin was pretty short, didn't seem terribly

711
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 24: interested its chuggling with John.

712
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 12: But hypothetical if in fact he had asked you to

713
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 12: come down the station. He wanted to get a statement

714
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 12: from you.

715
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 25: It's ninety three, it's may You've got your suspicions, but

716
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 25: you're also feeling some loyalty to John.

717
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 12: What do you reckon you would have done then in those.

718
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 25: Circumstances, if you were being pressed by the detective to

719
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 25: cough up some information.

720
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 8: I would have told them nothing. But I just didn't

721
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 8: want to get involved. I thought it was just too obvious.

722
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 4: Well, I just want this guy's going to get arrested

723
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 4: quite soon for so much evidence here against him.

724
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 12: Was he intimidating you?

725
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 2: Not at all?

726
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 8: Not at all.

727
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 12: No, did you ever tell him, Hey, I hadn't talked

728
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 12: to a police.

729
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 4: At all when memory even mentioned Bromwin between me and John,

730
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 4: when they've mentioned it.

731
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 24: And have you had experiences with the police that has

732
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 24: helped sort of shape your view that you don't tell

733
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 24: them information about your friend.

734
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 4: My dad is a detective and a lot a lot

735
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 4: of respect for the police. My only issue was I

736
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 4: just didn't want to get involved on stepping back. He's mistaken. Yes,

737
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 4: I realized it's a mistake now that it's I'm offul

738
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: this is so then when nothing got done, yes.

739
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 25: Because it sounds like he was an acquaintance, not really

740
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 25: a close mate.

741
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 8: Look, I wasn't.

742
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 4: I wasn't staying silent to protect him. I was just

743
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 4: staying silent because I didn't want to get involved.

744
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 8: Marry doesn't like a lot of confrontation. Allow my little world.

745
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 25: Indeed, do you recall whether you told this getting in

746
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 25: ninety three what Murray had told you?

747
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 8: And I think I did tell him that, whether I

748
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 8: was told dead.

749
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: Murray shared with deb that he had seen the car leave,

750
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: but he didn't share with her for some time the

751
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 1: most suspicious features that the car left with its lights off,

752
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: injured off, and that it scraped the ground while reversing

753
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: down the driveway.

754
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 8: I wouldn't have mentioned any of that to Discan. No,

755
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 8: I definitely wouldn't have.

756
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 25: What changed for you five years later when Glenn Taylor

757
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 25: became involved, Why did you talk to him?

758
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 4: I could see that was going nowhere and there's injustice

759
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 4: been done here. When I would give a formal statement

760
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 4: on the truth.

761
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: Earlier, Murray disclosed that his father was a police detective,

762
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: and this made it harder for me to understand Murray's

763
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: silence when detectives Graham Diskin and Wayne Temby turned up

764
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: at Sandstone Crescent.

765
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 12: Did you talk to your father about it?

766
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 2: Yes?

767
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 4: What did you tell him? That's home the situation in

768
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 4: what had happened, probably a couple of days later. Yes,

769
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 4: And he said it looks all he strangler. I said,

770
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 4: I don't think so too, because there was no blood,

771
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 4: There was no nothing.

772
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 8: I said that. I said, what's JAILO? Is jerns a

773
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 8: turn or is joil a punishment? Yeah? In answer me,

774
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 8: But that's why I was wiring.

775
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: Up as well. What is jail?

776
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 4: To put that block of that fellow up for ten

777
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 4: years in jail? It's probably not. It wasn't a pleasant

778
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 4: thing to do. And I thought, but I'm not going

779
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 4: to be the one who's going to do that. I'm

780
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 4: going to sit out of this because it was to

781
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 4: me it was obvious.

782
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 12: Did your dad know that you were sitting out of it?

783
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: Yeah?

784
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 8: Yes, he was okay, he was okay that yeah. Yeah.

785
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 8: In my mind it was just it was cut and right.

786
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 12: But your idea is about the right thing to do.

787
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: Change.

788
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 8: Since then, my ideas probably haven't changed. My idea is

789
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 8: just tell the truth, but.

790
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 12: It is a deliberate o mission telling the truth.

791
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 8: There's no deliberate omissions in that.

792
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 3: No.

793
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 12: I mean from ninety three, not telling anyone.

794
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 8: No, I wasn't asked.

795
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I wasn't ask and I was staying out

796
00:44:59,760 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: of it.

797
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: John's reputation in the community has ebbed like the tide

798
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: at Boulders Beach.

799
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 23: Well, they are calling the murder around he murder from

800
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 23: the time Brown went missing.

801
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 8: It was ten years later to the inquest. I think

802
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 8: he thought you'd got away with it.

803
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: Madison Walsh and I talked about Murray's decision in nineteen

804
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: ninety three to keep his head down and his mouth shut.

805
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: Maddie has also met Murray at his home in Lennox Head,

806
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: next to Bromwin and John's house. She stared at that

807
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: house and wondered what happened inside on that night, And

808
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: like me, Madison finds Murray thoughtful and keen to help

809
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: this investigation, which makes his omission of what was vital

810
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: information really hard to fathom. Detective disc And came to

811
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: see him in that early stage. Mary believed that they

812
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: looked a bit interested. They weren't taking it that seriously.

813
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: But by the same taken Murray didn't give them information

814
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 1: that he had that they could have used to take

815
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: it seriously.

816
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 7: It's not a big place, a lot of secrets would

817
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 7: be kept.

818
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: John's car leaving with the lights off and the engine

819
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: off and was scraping on the road. That was one

820
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: of the reasons why Murray was suspicious of a murder

821
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: right back on day one. Murray didn't tell the police

822
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: that until he was interviewed five years later.

823
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 7: That could have been just enough for it to be

824
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 7: taken seriously. Saying that he witnessed that.

825
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,479
Speaker 1: He says he knew that she'd been killed. He said,

826
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: but I just knew that she was dead.

827
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 7: He's probably not the only one that thought that way

828
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 7: or had an inkling of a thought that early on either.

829
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: We speculated over whether it would have made a difference that.

830
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 7: Could have been enough for formal interviews to be completed.

831
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 7: At that time.

832
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: You could have called sumb and said, I think we

833
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: need the homicide squad here. Those detectives are very experienced

834
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: in hardcore.

835
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 7: The fact that there was no forensic investigation done on

836
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 7: the car, because that could have changed everything as well.

837
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: Although Murray had told me he was not intimidated by John,

838
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 1: I have wondered about this. Murray was incapacitated as a

839
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: result of a very accident in the surf when a

840
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: large swell was producing heavy waves at trestles off black

841
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 1: Head near Ballina.

842
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 4: I'd crossed my vertebrae in my back as the worst

843
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 4: pain of ever thought in my life.

844
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 8: Pushed my spine right up into the back of your head. Oh,

845
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 8: it was horrible. And what did you do?

846
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 12: Did you hit a sand that.

847
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 8: Went over the falls and bang lan on me?

848
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 4: Bun but hit a roof land on a reof crushed

849
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 4: it like a can possible for a couple of weeks,

850
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 4: and then came home and Miss Preston regrigerated.

851
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: He was in his house in Sandstone Crescent recovering his

852
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: physical movements severely restricted, after being released from the medical

853
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: ward a day before Bronwin's disappearance. Murray was a young

854
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: dad of small children at home. Back then, John was

855
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 1: in excellent physical condition. He was strong and fit from surfing,

856
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: from his manual labor on building sites and working out

857
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 1: with weights in his garage, John could have seemed physical

858
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: intimidating without even trying to be.

859
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 7: Debbie and Murray like, are they still in relative contact

860
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 7: with him or have they completely ceased communication.

861
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: They're not enemies and they're not boosom buddies. Debbie says

862
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: she can't stand him and he won't look at her

863
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: in the eye when she sees.

864
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 2: Him around town.

865
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: Wow, whereas Murray says he bumps into him a lot,

866
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: mostly at the beach when they're getting ready to go.

867
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: For a surf.

868
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 7: I mean, maybe that's what works for him.

869
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 1: John Winfield still lives relatively close to deb and Murray,

870
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: although John sold the house in Sandstone Crescent a quarter

871
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: of a century ago. In fact, just about everything in

872
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,399
Speaker 1: Lennox's head is close, relatively.

873
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 8: Literally around the corner. At five ten minutes, I can

874
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 8: take you there, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take you

875
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 8: for a drive.

876
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: As we drove out of Sandstone Crescent, deb raised Murray's

877
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: disclosures about him not wanting to tell police what he

878
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 1: saw and heard on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen

879
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: ninety three.

880
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:06,959
Speaker 2: So where are we going now?

881
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 23: We call this the Headlands. As you can see Headlands Drive.

882
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 23: That's where I see John walking around here millionaires roll

883
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 23: I call it that. He bought a dual block, one

884
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 23: for himself and one for Jody. Are they good views

885
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 23: up here over this side there are.

886
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: And these properties look at the ocean. Yeah they do.

887
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: I asked deb whether she or Murray had wondered whether

888
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: his decision to hold back some information for five years

889
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 1: was one of the reasons the first investigation went nowhere.

890
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 5: Yes and no.

891
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 23: When disc and as I said, was investigating it, if

892
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 23: you'd like to call it.

893
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: That, it was just like a general chit chat.

894
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 23: He was giving them the benefit of the doubt really

895
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 23: to say that, oh, they'll do their job. Their police

896
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 23: officers know what they should be doing. And it all

897
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 23: kind of died nowhere else we could go. He was

898
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 23: waiting for them to really be the ones that will

899
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,959
Speaker 23: or less bring it to a head or swept under

900
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 23: the carpet. I always get him confused, Sorry, Ledley, here

901
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 23: we are here.

902
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, he brought that block on that block.

903
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 8: The house next saw that jobs it's a fortress.

904
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 2: It is very odd looking.

905
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: It had been need as of him inside.

906
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 8: That's his car in the driveway.

907
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: That's him there.

908
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: Right, very exclusive.

909
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 12: As you can.

910
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 23: See sitting up there in your smug castle.

911
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: It seemed like a terrible person.

912
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 13: Don't I.

913
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: This has weighed on you for a long time.

914
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 23: Because I have a sister, and if it hadn't in

915
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 23: my family, I just don't know how I would be

916
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 23: able to handle that.

917
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: She was a friend and a good friend at the time.

918
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 23: We'd still be friends today, I know we would.

919
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 1: Did you ever have any disagreements?

920
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 8: No, we didn't, not at all.

921
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 23: I did feel so sorry for her though, she was

922
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 23: gone through so much heartache with him, which is why

923
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 23: I kipt didn't trying to encourage her to go.

924
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: I didn't really expect it.

925
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 23: All to turn out like it has.

926
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: In the very first episode of Bromwin, you heard that

927
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: Murray still saw John most days when they would go

928
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: to Boulders Beach to check out the surf. But they

929
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: haven't talked to each other about Bromwin since way back

930
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: in the beginning thirty one years ago, and they have

931
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: not had any contact with each other over the past

932
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: month and a half. Since this podcast series, Bromwin started

933
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: in May twenty twenty four, John has been surfing different beaches.

934
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: While the episodes have been unfolding. He has not been

935
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: back to his favorite break Boulders for some time, and

936
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: I haven't heard again from John since he emailed me

937
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: back in May to say that Bromwin's family was afflicted

938
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: by mental illness. We know that he emphatically denies wrongdoing.

939
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: We need to stress this. There is a standing offer

940
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: to John to tell his side of the story in

941
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: an interview with me for this podcast. We hope that

942
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: John will choose to talk.

943
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 26: There's been a development in a suspected murder of New

944
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 26: South Wales mother Bronwyn Winfield more than three decades ago.

945
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 1: As this episode eight was being produced, detectives from Sydney's

946
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: Unsolved Homicide Unit flew north and met Judy Singh for

947
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: a lengthy sit down interview in the Tweedheads police station.

948
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: The detectives took her statement for the first time in

949
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: thirty one years. Afterwards, Judy went with police to the

950
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: home in Granite Street, Lennox Head where she and her

951
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: children lived. Jude saw the balcony and the deck where

952
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: she was sitting when she says she saw John Winfield

953
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,919
Speaker 1: drive past in the ford falcon very late at night

954
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: with what appeared to be a body wrapped in sheets

955
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: in the back seat of the car. Jude must be

956
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: glad that she's finally been properly heard.

957
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 26: A witness account, which was previously dismissed, is now being

958
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 26: considered by detectives.

959
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: The idea that Bromwin took off to start a secret

960
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 1: new life with no money and somehow evaded every proof

961
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: of life check over the past thirty one years is

962
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: too far fetched to be taken seriously. It's also offensive

963
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: to all those who knew Bromwinn's remarkable dedication to her children,

964
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: Crystal and Lauren. Bromwin Joy Winfield, who was thirty one

965
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: when she disappeared on the night of May sixteenth, nineteen

966
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: ninety three, must be dead, but where Bromlin's remains. A

967
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: new theory has emerged and developed strength during this podcast investigation.

968
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,359
Speaker 1: But there's a cautionary note now, it's only speculation, and

969
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: I've been down this road before with no result. In

970
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 1: the case of murderer Chris Dawson's concealment of his wife

971
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: Lynn's body in nineteen eighty two, the former family babysitter

972
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: who became Chris's second wife, suspected Lynn's body was close

973
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 1: to the house in Bayview on Sydney's Northern Beaches. He

974
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: is how Rebecca Hazel, who became very good friends with

975
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: Chris's second wife, described it to me when I was

976
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,479
Speaker 1: investigating the case for the Teacher's Pet. This is from

977
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: one of the early episodes in that series.

978
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 20: Here, she's adamant, absolutely adamant. Yep, no doubt for her.

979
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 20: She just seems like she's gone that block. I know

980
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,720
Speaker 20: that's where she is. She looked up, she said she's

981
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 20: up there.

982
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: She's somewhere up there on that block.

983
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 20: For a while she could kept saying she's on the block,

984
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 20: and then at some point she started telling me, you know,

985
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 20: I do haven't checked the loose soil.

986
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: Now, in twenty twenty four, we still don't know where

987
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: Lynn's remains are. A search of the property by police

988
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen did not shed any light on her whereabouts.

989
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 27: Police have started digging for the remains of missing mum

990
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 27: Lynette Dawson, who disappeared thirty six years ago and has

991
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 27: thought to be buried in the garden of her family

992
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 27: home at Bayview on the Northern Beaches.

993
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: In Bromwin's case, there were searches of the house and

994
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: backyard at Sandstone Crescent by forensics officers in two thousand

995
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: and nine when a review by Unsolved Homicide Unit detectives

996
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: was unfolding, but nothing came out of these efforts. Sixteen

997
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: years after Bromwin's disappearance. Kadava dogs have also been put

998
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: onto the property. Lennox Head locals have their theories in Gluis,

999
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 1: also known as Scruffy the Concrete, has given evidence of

1000
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: what he believed was an unusually thick concrete slab in

1001
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: a house John was working on around the time of

1002
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: Bromwan's disappearance. Scruffy spoke to me about it when we

1003
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: first met.

1004
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 8: We went to do a sort of laundry bathroom area.

1005
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 28: I actually said, why do you fuck the levels up here?

1006
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: Because it was thick.

1007
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: Laundry and bathroom areas don't have to be that thick

1008
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: and concrete to Deer he was working there as the brickplayer.

1009
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: You are going to hear more about this when we

1010
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: get to the episode dealing with the evidence. At the inquest,

1011
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: Scruffy got back in touch.

1012
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 2: What has been on your mind?

1013
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 28: What everyone wants to know is where's Bromwin? Yes, one

1014
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 28: day she's there, and the next to the sign of

1015
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 28: her and the kids went at the skill. They had

1016
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 28: taken them down to Sydney, and then it wasn't until

1017
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 28: they came back that all of a sudden what happened

1018
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 28: to Bromwin and the backstory started going, well, her mother

1019
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 28: was n absent and left him family home, and she's

1020
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 28: following in her footsteps.

1021
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 2: John had been pushing to everyone.

1022
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 8: Brown was supposedly unstable.

1023
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: You've previously heard Deb Hall saying she's one hundred percent

1024
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 1: sure that John killed Bromin. She suggests that John, who

1025
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: emphatically denies wrongdoing, continues to live in the community because

1026
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: he takes the view they can't get.

1027
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 8: Me because they can't find the body.

1028
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 12: That's why I think he lives his life like he does.

1029
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,479
Speaker 1: Deb and Murray are also convinced that when John left

1030
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: the house in the car on the night of May sixteenth,

1031
00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, he was in a panic. Whatever happened

1032
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: was not planned. Something had happened.

1033
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 23: He had his served body, had his bag, so he

1034
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 23: wasn't planning on going back to Sydney that night.

1035
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 9: Why would you do that?

1036
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: Here's the former experienced detective Glenn Taylor, who did dozens

1037
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: of interviews and worked very hard on the case for

1038
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: several years from nineteen ninety eight. Glenn's investigations had a

1039
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: significant impact and Bromwin would thereafter be seen as a

1040
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: probable victim of murder.

1041
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 29: Circumstantially, I believe it's extremely likely that foul play occurred

1042
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 29: in the house that night. John was obviously in a

1043
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 29: bit of a panic that his wife, Wrongan, had moved

1044
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 29: back into the home.

1045
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: Glenn described the events of the Sunday night from when

1046
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 1: John left the house in the family car, having woken

1047
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: the two girls for the drive to Sydney. You've heard

1048
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: some of this before, but course of its significance and

1049
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: what's to follow, it's best if it's really well understood.

1050
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 29: And upon arrival at the house in Sandstone Crescent, Lannox said,

1051
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 29: Roman answered the door and from there within in what

1052
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 29: we call only one sided conversation as to what then

1053
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 29: took place. According to John, they discussed their marriage, and

1054
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 29: according to him, she said that she wanted to have

1055
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 29: a break from the children, and she made some mysterious

1056
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 29: telephone call and shortly thereafter, about nine point thirty pm,

1057
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 29: that's what he's saying, she walked out the front door,

1058
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 29: and he heard a car pull up, but he didn't

1059
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 29: check to see who was in the car. That was

1060
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 29: the last time ro was ever seen. And then he

1061
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 29: made a sudden decision then to get in his car,

1062
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 29: get in the car that Romwin had possession of, and

1063
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 29: then bundle the in the car. And when I'm in

1064
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 29: bundle and then they would taken out of their beds

1065
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 29: in the pajamas they would put in the family car

1066
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 29: on the back seat with the family dog. I'm not

1067
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 29: concluding anything sinister, but the neighbor shortly before eleven pm

1068
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,919
Speaker 29: that night observed the white Ford.

1069
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 12: Rolling down the driveway.

1070
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 29: We don't know, but it could be an influence that

1071
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 29: was waiting the boot. And then the vehicle then rolled

1072
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 29: down the hill still.

1073
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 12: With its lights off.

1074
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 29: And for some reason he believed that he needed to

1075
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 29: get a receipt, which he got. Eleven oh six pm

1076
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 29: that night, John Winfield obtained a receipt from the Airpole

1077
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 29: service station in Ballina. He still had that receipt years later,

1078
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 29: still in his wallet. He felt the need he had

1079
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 29: to retain that receipt, saying he filled up with fuel

1080
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 29: on possibly gas because it was also a gas operated

1081
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 29: vehicle and he drove all the way down to Sydney,

1082
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 29: arrived at his ex wife's home in Sydney with the

1083
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 29: two children, and he said, look, rom Win's gone on

1084
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 29: a holiday, or whereas to that effect, can you look

1085
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 29: after the children today.

1086
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 1: One of the odd things from the night Bromwin disappeared

1087
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: is John's attachment to the receipt from the Ampole service station.

1088
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 1: He showed it to Michelle, he showed it to Andy,

1089
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: he showed it to Megan when she saw him in Sydney.

1090
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 1: He showed it to the detective Graham Diskin. In nineteen

1091
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: ninety three and five years after Broman's disappearance, John produced

1092
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 1: the receipt from his wallet and showed it to Glenn Taylor,

1093
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 1: the then detective sergeant.

1094
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 9: It just hits me in the bat head like a

1095
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 9: sledge Emma.

1096
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: In the next episode, we are going to unpack John's

1097
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: highly unusual attachment too his receipt, and he believes he

1098
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: has finally solved this puzzle.

1099
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 9: Bugged us for so long.

1100
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 11: Why he had to put so much emphasis on that

1101
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 11: petrol receipt.

1102
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 9: It's a ship. What time you bought petrol? Who even

1103
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 9: needs to know that you bought.

1104
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 11: Petrol to drive a car to Sydney.

1105
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 9: No shit, Sherlock.

1106
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: Really, it's always bugged me, and you and I talked

1107
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 1: about It.

1108
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 9: Makes sense to us now.

1109
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 1: And it might just be a powerful clue to Bromwin's whereabouts.

1110
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: Bronwyn has written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1111
01:03:56,200 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1112
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1113
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1114
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1115
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Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn

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Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

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Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

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Speaker 1: Kristin Amiert, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Bryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

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Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio

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Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and

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Speaker 1: original theme.

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01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 2: Music by Slade Gibson.

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Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation.

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Speaker 2: Of Bromwin Winfield.

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Speaker 1: We can only do this kind of journalism with the

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Speaker 1: support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey

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Speaker 1: Norman for all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines

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Speaker 1: and documents about this podcast and other podcasts, including The

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Speaker 1: Teacher's Pet, The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's.

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Speaker 2: Legacy and The Night Driver.

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Speaker 1: Go to the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe