1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: O good are you bloody champions? It's Bobby, It's Roberts, 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: It's Craig, Anthony harpertzasit you. It's the U Project. 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 2: Bobby high mate, Hello, Craig, how are you going. 4 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 3: Harm On? 5 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: I said, I said high energy? I said high energy. 6 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Come in, come in with something ready, Hi Bobby. 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 2: Hey Craig. I'm standing up inside myself right now. You can't. 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: My voice is fairly subdued, but inside my own internal experience, 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: I'm bubbling with enthusiasm. 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 3: That's amazing. Uh, how are you? How's your week? Bean? 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 3: Or how's your foot? What a week? Now? We're weekly? 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 3: How's your week? Bean? 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 2: It's been it's been a roller coaster ride. It's been 14 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: a tumultuous navigation through a terrifying storm. But on that 15 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: it's been okay, yours. 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 3: It's been good. 17 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: It's been busy, uh speaking bit of corporate stuff, but 18 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: a you know, all the normal stuff, all the Craig 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: and Bobby stuff, the stuff that we do. Let's not 20 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: bore everyone, but I was gonna ask you in the 21 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: middle of the tumult in the middle of the chaos, 22 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: in the middle of the peaks and troughs, you know, 23 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: you being the educator and the inspirer and the you know, 24 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: the connector what's your go to? Is there a go 25 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: to for you when you feel a bit shit or 26 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: stressed that kind of puts you in a better place. 27 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, single malt whiskey? Why do you ask? 28 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 3: Yeah? Is that is that? That's not bad? Though? Right? 29 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 3: I mean that is? Is that true for you? 30 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: Now? The single malt is definitely the way to go. 31 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: Don't don't if you're gonna do whiskey, don't do the 32 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 2: cheap shit. 33 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: But no, it's an opportunity. I give you an opportunity 34 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:43,479 Speaker 1: to have a grown up conversation. 35 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: Come on, now, it's not true. Actually it's more bourbon, 36 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: which is a form of whiskey. 37 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 3: But all right, now we're getting somewhere. Yeah. 38 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: A lot of the time, it's having people around you 39 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: that you can collaborate with. So one thing that has 40 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: really helped me this week, and I think it's helped 41 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: my colleague as well as I have somebody at work 42 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: who a couple of people who's a really great friend 43 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: but also an incredible thought partner. And by incredible thought partner, 44 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: I don't mean that we're like minded. We aren't our vision, 45 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: but we disagree on just about everything, but there's so 46 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: much psychological safety there because we know at any given 47 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: moment we support each other completely. So it's okay to 48 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: like take it to the mattresses and have it out 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: over issues that we're both passionate about. And she'll challenge 50 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: me on things, and I'll get on a conversation with 51 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 2: her and I'll feel strongly one way, and by the 52 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: end of the conversation, I'll realize I might not be 53 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: right about half of the ideas that I had coming 54 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: into this meeting. And I just love it because it's 55 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: not fighting for the sake of fighting. We don't ever 56 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: get into an argument about who's right. It's about what's 57 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: right and the best idea wins. I find that invigorating. 58 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 2: I find that cathartic supportive, and you know, a lot 59 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: of times we're there to support each other through through 60 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 2: the ebbs and flows, and knowing that somebody is in 61 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: your corner, that that level of connection, I think, you know, 62 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: it's important. 63 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. 64 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: Give me the Bobby definition, not the Google or the 65 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: Dictionary definition. Give me the Bobby definition of psychological safety. 66 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: Psychological safety is when you know that your inner thoughts 67 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: and opinions are invited. They're welcomed. In some environments, the 68 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: unpopular and divergent opinion isn't just welcomed, it's demanded. I 69 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: think we've discussed it on this podcast. Like one great 70 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: example that is Project Aristotle conducted by Google when they 71 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 2: wanted to know who would the top performing teams, which 72 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: teams were the best of the best and the absolute 73 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: most productive throughout the entire organization. And what they found 74 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: is the number one contributing factor is psychological safety. And 75 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: when people think about psychological safety, they think it's warm 76 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: and fuzzy, but no, it's if the entire team believes 77 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: something strongly and you see it differently, not only will 78 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: there not be any retribution for you voicing that divergent opinion, 79 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 2: but it's what's expected. And if there's a conflict, that 80 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: conflict is engaged in within an environment of trust and 81 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: it's celebrated. So Google, when they started launching this study, 82 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 2: the assumption was the most productive teams have the most 83 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: intelligent people working within them. But everybody at Google is 84 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: highly intelligent. Sure, some annoyingly so, but it wasn't It 85 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: wasn't about who was on the team or what skills 86 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: they possessed. It was mostly about how that team communicated 87 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: with one another. It was the interpersonal dynamics. And the 88 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: reason why this is important because psychological safety gives rise 89 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 2: to vulnerability where it's like, Okay, I know what you're saying, Craig, 90 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 2: and I understand it. Let me get this straight. What's 91 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: important to you is A B and SA. And what 92 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: I also see in the strength of your argument is 93 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: amb I see it quite differently. And I don't think 94 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: that we necessarily have all the resources or I don't 95 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: think I'm the very best person for this role in 96 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: the project. I think I'd be more suited for this. 97 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: That's an example of vulnerability and that type of dynamic 98 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: drize performance. 99 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, thank you. That's good. As you and 100 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: I were token just before. I just got back from 101 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: doing a speaking gig, and you know, trying to do 102 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: trying to in the middle of two hundred people with 103 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: their own backgrounds and personalities and you know, filters, and 104 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: you know, you're trying to create optimal connection with people 105 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: who are not the same who don't necessarily have the 106 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: same thinking or beliefs or background or you know, values 107 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: or you know, I'm sure there's some overlap and some 108 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: consistency and convergence, but there's also divergence. And but the 109 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: thing is you're one person sharing one message and trying 110 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: to in the middle of that, in the middle of 111 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: that kind of almost demonstration of IQ kind of where 112 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: you're sharing sometimes what can be complicated or high level 113 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: concepts or information or whatever. But really what matters more 114 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: is my social intelligence, my emotional intelligence, my adaptability quotient. Like, 115 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: how can I my AQ, EQ, SQ and IQ rite 116 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: all the cues? 117 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: How do I? 118 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, I know some things that maybe some people 119 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 1: in the room or most people in the room don't 120 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: know because of where I've been and where they've been, 121 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: But then how do I share this stuff in a 122 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: way that isn't confusing or cognitively unaccessible for them or. 123 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: What could be seen as being a. 124 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: Display of assumed superiority or arrogance or something like Intelligence 125 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: is such a spectrum. 126 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: I mean, it's really hard to have a productive, dynamic 127 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: conversation when none of the party is involved or speaking 128 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: the same language. It kind of creates a little bit 129 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: of a barrier. And I think, you know, whenever you 130 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: get up in front of an audience. It's a couple 131 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: of questions people are asking and you know they're not 132 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: asking this out loud, well sometimes they are, but in 133 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: their head they're asking, you know, why should I listen 134 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: to you so? And you've got to be able to 135 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: answer those questions. And this comes up a lot in work. 136 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: Where you can have the most credible information in the world, 137 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: you can have an empirical based model. If you're not 138 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: communicating in a way with people that want you're safe, 139 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: and by safe, I don't mean you're not challenging them, 140 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: you know, once there's trust there. I think you know, 141 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: people show up to events, how people show up to 142 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: conversations over dinner because they want to be challenged. They 143 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: want to be confronted, not in a judgmental way, but 144 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: in a collaborative way. But first, I have to trust 145 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: what your intentions are. I have to know that you're 146 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: trying to take me on a journey where at the 147 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: end of it I'll be better off than I was 148 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: when we first took our first steps. I think that's critical, 149 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: you know, and. 150 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: But also what is critical for the the other person 151 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: is realizing that, oh I'm missing the mark I'm fucking 152 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: way off here, Like this is not connecting at all. 153 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: Like even when you just said then, which I completely 154 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, I understand you said empirically based model. I'm like, 155 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: half my audience are like, I don't know what that is, 156 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like just that one term. 157 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: Half my audience are like fine, half alike, And that's 158 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: no insult at all. That's just like people who aren't 159 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: in that world of you know, empirical research and writing 160 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: and data and you know, yeah, it's like that's the 161 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: thing is like, how do I say that in a way, 162 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: Because the people that I'm talking to a lot not 163 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: like me, not better or worse, but they're not like me. 164 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: Most of them. They don't think like me. 165 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: And so trying to talk to someone that isn't like you, 166 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: that doesn't think like you, that doesn't have necessarily your 167 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: insights or language or vocab, like I think that's for me, 168 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: that is like a really in the moment test of intelligence. 169 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: I think that comes from stuff that we were talking 170 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: about earlier. Being able to show up and be present, 171 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 2: and yeah, I don't always do that as well as 172 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 2: I do at other times, but it's showing up with 173 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: a level of presence that you can listen to your 174 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 2: audience because even when nobody's speaking, they are communicating, and 175 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 2: you could feel what's being communicated. And if you can 176 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: even intuitively receive that and adapt to it. And if 177 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: you could speak multiple languages. I'm not meaning like you 178 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: rock up and you're speaking you know, German, Dutch and 179 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: French and the same seminar, although that would be kind 180 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: of cool to watch. I mean, for all those people 181 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: out in the audience, you're not speaking linearly. You're using 182 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: different descriptions, you're using stories, you're using facts, you're using analogies. 183 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: You're just touching upon the learning styles and the level 184 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: of engagement that most resonates with a majority of people 185 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: in the audience. That's why it drives me nuts when 186 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: a conference organizer, especially when you read your evails and 187 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 2: they loved the presentation, the audience got something out of it, 188 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 2: and they'll say, yes, it would be great if you 189 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 2: didn't tell those stories and you just gave takeaways. Great, 190 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 2: And I'm going to lose fifty percent of the audience 191 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: that I would have had. Oh and by the way, 192 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: they're not going to be able to imaginably project themselves 193 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: into the protagonists of the story and in a safe, safe, 194 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: but challenging environment, go through the imagintive process of seeing 195 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: themselves taking action in the context of the presentation and 196 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: what you're trying to tell them. And the chance that 197 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: people will actually walk out of there and implement those 198 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: takeaways are slim to none. As a matter of fact, 199 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: probably ninety seven percent won't. 200 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean, I'm with you, and it's 201 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: no offense to any would be a valuator or or whatever. 202 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: But when people who don't do the job that you 203 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: do critique the job that you do while they don't 204 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: do it and haven't done it and maybe you're not 205 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: good at it, I understand. But it's kind of Yeah, 206 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: It's like me evaluating someone's dance performance. I'm like, fuck, 207 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: I'm not the guy because I don't have the knowledge, 208 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: I don't have the skill, I don't have the experience, 209 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: I don't do that, So getting an evaluation on that 210 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: from me is probably not valuable. 211 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 3: And I mean, at the same. 212 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: Time, we don't want to be precious, you know, we 213 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: want to. 214 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 3: Take feedback on board. 215 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: But you and me anyway, you know, maybe we're dinosaurs, 216 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: but I'm all for stories. I'm all for humor because 217 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: people connect with humor and stories people don't connect typically 218 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: with data, with charts, with graphs, you know, And so 219 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: that that's you know, that's I'm always like, what's the 220 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: thing that I want to teach or the idea that 221 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: I want to share or the strategy that I want 222 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: to download? And then I think, more importantly, what's a 223 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: story that I have about that? How can I tell 224 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: a story about that idea or that process or that 225 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: bit of wisdom that I didn't create? How do I 226 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: tell a story about that? Because you're right, you know, 227 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: when people see themselves in that story, now that idea 228 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: becomes so much more powerful and more likely to be 229 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, activated. 230 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: Well, that's the essence of storytelling, isn't it. The mean character, 231 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 2: the hero of your story is the person sitting in 232 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 2: the audience, and they are, at some level, not every 233 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: single one, but most of them are imagining themselves going 234 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: through the same journey as the protagonist in your story 235 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: and facing those trials, those challenges, overcoming them and transforming 236 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: into who are what they ultimately want to be. And 237 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: that's so powerful, which is why I think every culture, 238 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:17,599 Speaker 2: every religion, every organization is completely built on the stories 239 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: that embody it. And then I can get into the 240 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: neurobiology about why stories work so well. And we could 241 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: spend like five six hours on this podcast. Don't worry, 242 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: we won't for anyone who's getting a little bit nervous. 243 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: But storytelling is probably the most pervasive and deeply effective 244 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: medium of teaching. 245 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree. All right, So I've got an idea, 246 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: and this is what I want to do. Yeah, I 247 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: know that down the hatches steady on for the rest 248 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: of the podcast. I want to do this. I'm gonna 249 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: so let me set it up. So I'm in the 250 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: middle of preparing for a four day, four night, five 251 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: day retreat that I'm going to run, and over the 252 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: course of the retreat, I want to unpack one hundred ideas, 253 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: one hundred ideas, one hundred important messages, one hundred questions. 254 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: You know, it might be a bit less, it might 255 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: be a bit more, but I'm in the middle of like, 256 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: just you know, here's an idea that I think we 257 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: should think about, or here's a truth that well, it 258 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: appears to be a truth. There's a lot of evidence 259 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: for it. Let's unpack that, or here's maybe a question 260 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: that might open the door on a lot of things 261 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: for you, or so, what I want to do is 262 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: I want to share with you some of these This 263 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: is very much in its infancy. It's very much early stages, 264 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: work in progress. And I'm probably being cheeky because maybe 265 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: I want to hear what you think and maybe that 266 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: will add to my overall kind of bank of content. 267 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: But I'm just going to share a thought or an 268 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: idea with you, and then I want you to riff 269 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: on it, share your thoughts and ideas. Feel free to disagree, agree, 270 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: expand whatever, and I want you to try to keep it. 271 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: This is going to be the hard bit for you 272 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: to three minutes, because I want to try and get 273 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: through somewhere between five to ten. 274 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: You ready, Oh god, I feel like I'm on a 275 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: game show. 276 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: You are around so and this is not in any 277 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: particular order. These are not, you know, most or least important. 278 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: But one of the things I'm going to talk about, 279 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: and this is my term, is the expectation disappointment correlation, 280 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: and the thinking being that quite often disappointment is a 281 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: byproduct of our expectations. Right, So, for example, I expect 282 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: Bobby to be a certain way when Bobby typically isn't 283 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: that way, but I think he should be. And then 284 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: we turn up and we get together and he's just 285 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: like he was the last thirty times. I'm now disappointed, 286 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: knowing that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. 287 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: So in essence, I feel like we create our own disappointment. 288 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 3: I would agree, Okay, next one, are you done? You 289 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 3: don't want to expand on that. 290 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: No, you know what I think, I think you. I 291 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: think you said it all. I have some disappointment When 292 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 2: people say like we create our own disappointment, I would say, 293 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 2: to a degree, there are things that we're not expecting 294 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: that happen, and it causes us to feel a certain way, 295 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 2: and sometimes we feel disappointed. But maybe that's how we 296 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: interpret past experiences. So it's not a consciously stated level 297 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: of expectation. But that's like with goal setting and habit formation. 298 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: It's not that you want to set an expectation that's 299 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: low for yourself. You want to set an expectation that 300 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 2: is challenging but palatable, because as you experience micro wins 301 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 2: that your expect your expectations yourself as well as your 302 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: your evidence through self efficacy that you're capable of engaging 303 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: in this work and doing it to bring about an 304 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,959 Speaker 2: outcome that'll start to expand as well. So when you 305 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: have that kind of like proportional increase in action and expectation, 306 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 2: you know, disappointment is not as likely to occur because 307 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: you're strategically identifying your starting point and expanding it incrementally 308 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 2: over time. It's probably one of really good reasons why 309 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: start with the one thing and both from there. 310 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 3: Perfect love? 311 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: Okay, My next one is just happens to be the 312 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: order they're written in everyone. There's no kind of rationale 313 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: beyond it. My next idea that I want to share 314 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: with people or thought is that some people will be 315 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: bothered by your success and I guess expanding on that 316 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: for whatever reason. And there's a word for it. It's 317 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: called sharden freuder. I don't know if I've shared that 318 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: with you. Once I think I did. 319 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: I love it. 320 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: When I learn a new word, then I want to 321 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: use it throughout the next few months to lock it 322 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: into my cognitive hard drive. But anyway, so, shardon freuder 323 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: is basically a term that explains the idea that people 324 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: are going to take delight in your pain, suffering, and 325 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: or failure. So some people want you. It gives them 326 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: joy seeing you fail, gives them joy seeing you in pain. 327 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: And I know this is a terrible idea, but I've 328 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: experienced it. I've I won't, but I could wheel out 329 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: at least twenty times where something's gone great for me 330 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: and I know. 331 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 3: It bothered people. I fucking know it bothered. 332 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: Them, And I'm like, wow, that is such an interesting 333 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: observation of the human experience. 334 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 3: By the way, am I perfect? Far from it? Do 335 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 3: I fuck up? Do have I done? I don't know 336 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: if I've done that. 337 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: I don't seem to have that part well that I 338 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: don't seem to be wired that way, but I definitely 339 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: still do dumb shit. So the idea is that people 340 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: will be bothered by your success. 341 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: Bobby. 342 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: Ah, there's so many things to say about this. I mean, 343 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 2: from one thing, if people are taking delight in your 344 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: pain and suffering, you could say, well, I might be 345 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: suffering right now, but look at how happy I'm making 346 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: so many people. 347 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 3: Ah, my pain is their gain. Wow. 348 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: That's very noble, very magnanimous, a bit like Jesus. 349 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: Even at my lowest point, I'm really making a contribution here. 350 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: I think as someone who's experienced this, and I think 351 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: I was fairly naive when I was getting into not 352 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: the working works I've been in the working world since 353 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: I was ten, but into a career where it's all 354 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 2: like intentional and there's a long term strategy and aspiration. 355 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: I always imagine that if I supported my team as 356 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 2: much as I possibly could and worked as hard as 357 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 2: I could and brought a unique level of value, people 358 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 2: will say, Okay, well, this person's really contributing to me 359 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 2: in a unique way. They're a valuable component of the team. 360 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: What I started to find out is not everyone's happy 361 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: when you're excelling in an area, even if you're bringing 362 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: them along with you. And I think one of the 363 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: reasons why this happens. We can talk about the varying 364 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: levels of what creates this dynamic, but I think one 365 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: of the reasons is we live in a society where 366 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: we're pushed into comparisons and if I'm doing better or 367 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: you're doing better, and I don't feel that inward sense one, 368 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: I don't feel confident in my compass and my beliefs. 369 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 2: Those beliefs were chosen for me and at some level 370 00:21:54,200 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: I doubt or there's something within my capability that's questionable 371 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: to me. Your success is a threat to me because 372 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: of comparison. So rather than elevating myself, I'm gonna tear 373 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 2: you down. And I don't think people do that because 374 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 2: they're bad people. So someone like me who's had struggles 375 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: with people pleasing, it's like that would cause me to 376 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: despair and get quite anxious and try to make effort. 377 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: And sometimes I would get angry because I felt hurt 378 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: because I felt, oh, I'm giving so much to these people, 379 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 2: or I think I am intent. I'm putting out all 380 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 2: this energy and this is what I get back. There's 381 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 2: something called anger alchemy, which is where you never let 382 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: a painful emotion go to waste. How can I use this? 383 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: And I think, for me, if I'm a people pleaser 384 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 2: and I know that the better I do and the 385 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: greater I perform, the more people will be not happy 386 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: for me, but almost waiting for me to fail and 387 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 2: wishing for it. Then having dissenters is almost a litmus 388 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 2: test for the fact that you are on point and 389 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: you are contributing, and you are doing something well. Because 390 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: if you are completely floundering and in a state of languishing, 391 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: they probably be trying to pick you up. Those same people, 392 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: But once you're in a state of thriving, that's the problem. 393 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 2: So if you don't have dissenters, if you're not pissing 394 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: people off, and if there's not a certain percentage of 395 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 2: the people that are secretly hoping for you to fail, 396 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 2: you're not making an impact that would threaten any of them. 397 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 2: And your goal should never be to like threaten somebody. 398 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: It's like, oh, I'm the best. That's all bullshit, Like 399 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 2: what does that really give you? But if it's happening 400 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: by default in spite of you, use it at evidence 401 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: that you're on the right track, not the wrong track. 402 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 3: I heard somebody. 403 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: I heard somebody say some one last thing where it's 404 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: almost if you're if you're if you're giving value that 405 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 2: requires a very strong definience point of view, it's almost 406 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: your job by default to piss off a certain percentage 407 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: of the population, because if you don't piss those people off, 408 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: you're not really impacting people that are aligned with and 409 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 2: really in need of what you're sincerely trying to give. 410 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: So I think that's kind of a powerful perspective. 411 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 412 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I would say it's going to be an 413 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: unavoidable consequence. I wouldn't say it's your job, but I 414 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: agree with the sentiment for sure. 415 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 3: All Right, here we go. 416 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: Understanding how other people think is a connection superpower. 417 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 2: Well, that's theory of mind. And I think if you're 418 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 2: going to communicate with people in a way that influences them, 419 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 2: and what I mean by influence is influence is the 420 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: ability to positively affect the behavior character of an individual 421 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 2: and in a broader sense of group. And if that's 422 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 2: your goal, you're gonna have to understand something about how 423 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: the people that you are trying to influence and serve 424 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: see the world. And if you go beyond that is 425 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: the ability to imaginally project yourself into the thoughts, emotions, experiences, 426 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 2: and mental state of another human being. That's empathy. Without that, 427 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: there is no enduring connection, relationship building. Everything becomes transactional 428 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: at some point. 429 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. I think sometimes people get caught up 430 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: in the. 431 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: Misunderstanding that understanding how someone else thinks is analogous to 432 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: agreeing with what they think, or supporting what they think, 433 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: or aligning or as I say, no, it just means 434 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: you get where they're coming from. It's like, well, you know, 435 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of evil shit that happens 436 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: in the world, and I think in order to be 437 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: able to combat the evil shit, we need to understand 438 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: what drives people to do it, Like we need to 439 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 1: understand their reason, understand their thinking, which of course is 440 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: not to agree or align or endorse, but rather, you know, 441 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: I can't overcome what I don't understand. Absolutely, you know, 442 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: I can't deal with shit that I've got no idea. Well, 443 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: you need to figure out why, why does he or 444 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: she do that? 445 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 3: What is that about? 446 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: What is the what is the underlying driver of that 447 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: evil or bad you know, outcome or behavior. 448 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: Well, I'm in agreement with you there, although that's not 449 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: the point stepping back from acts of evil and evil intangents, 450 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: just talking about different opinions. If you cannot see the perspective, 451 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 2: I mean, some people their entire personality is their diet 452 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: plan or their political affiliation. It is literally the sum 453 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 2: total of everything they think about, and lead with and project. 454 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: If you cannot step into empathetically the situation, thoughts, and 455 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: perspective of someone else, not to condemn or condone, but 456 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 2: to understand do you have beliefs or do your beliefs 457 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: have you if you're not even able to engage in 458 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,719 Speaker 2: the level of critical thinking that that examines the the 459 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: gaps and the thought fallacies within your own perspective, unless 460 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 2: you're thinking, wait, I don't have I don't have thought fallacies. 461 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: And at that point, yeah, you're done, because you're definitely 462 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 2: not thinking. 463 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it. I'm just writing that down. I 464 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 3: think that's going to be the title of the show. 465 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: Love it all right? No, no, no, Do you have 466 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: balis or do you belie you? 467 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 3: That's a fucking great question. I like that. 468 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: I love how you frime that. Next one the lot 469 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: and the goal is not to be happy, but rather 470 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: to successfully navigate the pigs and troughs are being perpetually human. 471 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: So the enlightened goal is not to be perpetually happy, 472 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: but rather to successfully navigate the pigs and truths being 473 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: perpetually human, accepting the inevitability of all emotions and states. 474 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 2: I think happiness is a fucking scam. Let's just say that. 475 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 3: Ah, it's that's the new title. 476 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, I'm I'm gonna put your name attached to 477 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: that go on. 478 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: I think it's a great way to control the aspirations 479 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 2: of people too. Have things that matter least supersede that 480 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: which matters the most. Yes, I think it's about meaning 481 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: because through meaning everything is useful. And you know, even 482 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: when you take a look at Barbara Frederickson and her 483 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 2: research around well being, it's not about the absence of 484 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 2: negative emotions, right, because negative emotions are valuable and they 485 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: also create contrast. How would we know elation and joy 486 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: if we never experienced row on pain? But you know, 487 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: if I'm experiencing negative emotions out of four out of 488 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 2: the five things that I experience in my life, my 489 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 2: situation's pretty dire. Where if I flip that and four 490 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 2: out of my five experiences are five, you know, like 491 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: five out of six. Yeah, lift me up rather than 492 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 2: tear me down, Well, that's a completely different life experience. 493 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: I think Victor Franklin's book Man Search Mead, it's one 494 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: of my favorite quotes where he said success, like happiness, 495 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 2: cannot be pursued. It must ensue as an unintended side 496 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: effect of one's personal dedication to a cause greater than oneself. 497 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: That's powerful. 498 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for restarting that, Ryan Man, I 499 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: love your memory. Yeah, I love that that is I 500 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: think you've shared that before, and thank you for bringing 501 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: it back up. It's bloody amazing and it's so true. 502 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: All right, let's do a couple more. This one's a 503 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: bit tongue in cheek. There are no shit friends. There 504 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: are no shit friends. So in other words, people who 505 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: you know. When people say to me, ah, one of 506 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: my friends is always running me down or always saying 507 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: shit behind my back or da da da, I'm like, yeah, 508 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: that's not a friend, that's just someone you know. 509 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: Oh I like that. I'm just gonna sit with that, 510 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 2: because when you said they're on a shit friends, I 511 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 2: was like, yeah, they. 512 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,959 Speaker 3: Are, yeah, but they're not friends. 513 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: They're just people you know that you interact with, that 514 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: you're familiar with, that you perhaps work with, like the 515 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: And that's not say friends have always got to be 516 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: blowing smoke up your ass or telling you you're fucking amazing. 517 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: But if there are people that you know, like people 518 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: talk to me about how toxic some of their friends 519 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: off to them, I'm like, one, do better. 520 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 3: Two. They're not friends. 521 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: They're just people that you know, and maybe people you 522 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: know well, but that that is not friendship, that is 523 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: not love, that is not care and well, my understanding 524 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: of friends is not what you're describing. 525 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: Mmm. I think you hit it right there. For me anyway, 526 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: it's it's love because with friends, and I know again 527 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: the ratio between or the connection between expectation and disappointment. 528 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 2: If I don't realize that my friends are doing the 529 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 2: best they can with the resources they have in the moment, 530 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: and that's going to vary in terms of how they 531 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 2: show up day to day. I have a high level 532 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 2: of expectation and I'm placing on someone that they might 533 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: not even know about, not to mention, agree with, and 534 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: when they don't meet an unexpressed expectation, I become disappointed. 535 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: That's one thing. There needs to be grace, because everybody 536 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 2: is going through their own struggle. On the other hand, 537 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: I think what defines a friend is love. And if 538 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: that's too weird between two people to discuss, and you know, 539 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: I mean, you could take the piss and frame it 540 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: and as banter or anywhere you want. But if there's 541 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: not love between two people, there is not a friendship. 542 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 2: Because people who love each other celebrate each other, they 543 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: recognize the differences and autonomy in one another, and they're 544 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: mutually invested in each other's experiences and outcomes. Yeah, and 545 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: that that that's that's what great communities are made up of, 546 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: its mutual investments. So to me, that's the that is 547 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 2: the cornerstone of friendship. 548 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: All Right, My last one totally disagree. My last one 549 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: totally agrees. I should say my last one is my 550 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: last one is built around a term that I coined. 551 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe other people use it. 552 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: I've never heard it, but it's definitely not talking about 553 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: anything that's new. But the term I use is this 554 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: destination disappointment. And what that means is when you achieve 555 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: something or you get somewhere it literally or metaphorically, and 556 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: the thing that you thought it would do for you 557 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't do. So for example, oh, I got to 558 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: that weight that I wanted, I got to that bench 559 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: press that I got to, that income, that weekly income, 560 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: I got to the top of the mountain I got 561 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: to I built the business, I owned the business. I've 562 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: got lots of dough, I've got lots of it, and 563 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: I still don't, you know, like the thing that I 564 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: wanted to achieve do be create change. I did it, 565 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: but I still feel shit. I call that destination disappointment, 566 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: where we think creating a certain outcome in our external 567 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: world will result in a particular internal state, feeling experience. 568 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I think I think that goes back to meaning, 569 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 2: you know, it was never for about the destination a right, 570 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 2: it was about what that destination represents or supports. And 571 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 2: if we were meant to get most of our sense 572 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: of self and joy from the places we arrive, we 573 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 2: would be on a neurobiological level rewarded for arriving rather 574 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 2: than pursuing. That's not the way it works. The motivating 575 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 2: the likes about if we if we were meant to 576 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 2: be rewarded for where we arrive, we would be biologically 577 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 2: incentivized for the destination, not the journey. And that that's 578 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: not the way it is. Like dopamine rewards goal seeking behavior, 579 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 2: not necessarily as much goal attaining behavior. Although that really 580 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: feels great, you know, and it's a milestone, but I 581 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: don't think that's that's fundamentally what it's about. Unless what 582 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: we're achieving takes care of our basic human needs, then 583 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 2: that might be a different story. Not sure, Yeah, yeah. 584 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: All right, let's do one more last one. Sometimes logic, 585 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: in inverted commas, logic is just a story we tell 586 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: ourselves based on what we understand, think and know, or 587 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: what we think we know anyway, So sometimes logic is 588 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: just a story we tell ourselves based on what we 589 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: personally understand think. 590 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 2: And no, oh my god, as so cliche. 591 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: But the example, like, yeah, the example I gave is, 592 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: you know, like a metal tube flying through the sky 593 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: with humans in it. I think we spoke about this once, 594 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: but i'd love your thoughts on that. You know, when 595 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: people go that doesn't make sense, they're kind of saying 596 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to me, or that's not possible. 597 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: They're saying, well, with what I understand, that's not possible. 598 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: Well, I mean the cliche is like, we're not rational beings, 599 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: we're rationalizing beans. I think we tell ourselves stories to 600 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 2: make our predispositions and emotional attachments make sense to us. 601 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 2: I mean, have you ever gone through like you're reading 602 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 2: a science book or a textbook and it walks you 603 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: through logic, like how logic is framed like a logical argument, 604 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: And I'll go through that and I'll look at it 605 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 2: and say, well, there's there is very rarely, if ever, 606 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 2: a situation where I think like this, Oh my days, 607 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 2: I am so highly irrational. It's it's almost like, God, 608 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 2: you ever see that I'm drawing a blank, Like this 609 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 2: time of night. My brain is completely squeezed into submission. 610 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 2: But where if I gave you a rule, right, there 611 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 2: were four cards in front of you, and I would 612 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 2: say something like, for every vowel right on the other side, 613 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 2: there's an even number right, so and you would have 614 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 2: let's say, e that's a vowel, and you would look 615 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 2: at that and you would go, Okay, I'm going to 616 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: turn that over right, and that's pretty smart. But next 617 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: to it, if there was an even number right, you 618 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: would go, oh, I'm going to turn that over to 619 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 2: see if there's a vowel. But what you're doing is 620 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 2: you're just trying to confirm the rule, where the more 621 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 2: the logically, the more important card to flip is the seven, 622 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: because if you flip a seven and there's a vowel 623 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 2: on the other side, that will disprove the rule. But 624 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: you're trying to prove the rule after the first card, 625 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: because the first card you flip prove the rule. So 626 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 2: you're trying to prove it again, that's a confirmation bias, 627 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, of course you would do that. 628 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean you're stupid because you do that. Most 629 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 2: people would do it, but you want to try to 630 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 2: disprove it, and we we just do not think like 631 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 2: that most. 632 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 3: Of the time. 633 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so interesting mate. It's always good to 634 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: catch up with you. The self help antidote is the 635 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: name of Bobby's show, uh and your website your web. 636 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 2: Address same self ubanted it. I ran out of eames, 637 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 2: so I just used it, used the same name for everything, 638 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 2: and on Insta the self up answered it, No, wait, 639 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 2: that's actually sorry, that's that's Robert Robert G. Capuccio, Robert 640 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 2: Joseph Capuccio. So something with Robert and Capuccia. 641 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 3: Just type in Robert Capucco. He'll come up. 642 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 1: Made always good to chat to you. Go get some 643 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: sleep or some caffeine, preferably not both. I'd probably just 644 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: stop for the sleep if I was. You good to chat, 645 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: Love you because see you next time, buddy.