1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appoche Production. 2 00:00:14,121 --> 00:00:16,081 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host, 3 00:00:16,161 --> 00:00:18,801 Speaker 2: Adam Shann. Thanks for joining us. Make sure you subscribe 4 00:00:18,841 --> 00:00:20,521 Speaker 2: to the podcast and share this with your friends for 5 00:00:20,601 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: more independent crime journalism. These days, bank robbers worked with 6 00:00:25,361 --> 00:00:27,841 Speaker 2: a PC and a phone, but once upon a time 7 00:00:27,841 --> 00:00:31,441 Speaker 2: it was Balaclaver's and sawn Off shotguns. The nineteen eighties 8 00:00:31,521 --> 00:00:34,521 Speaker 2: was the so called Golden era of armed robbers who 9 00:00:34,561 --> 00:00:38,441 Speaker 2: targeted banks, but also clubs, pubs, service stations anywhere that 10 00:00:38,561 --> 00:00:39,841 Speaker 2: was holding cash. 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Police have confirmed another armed hold up in Sydney today. 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,681 Speaker 1: Witnesses say the gunmen were calm, professional and heavily armed. 13 00:00:48,521 --> 00:00:51,121 Speaker 2: It was a time of prosperity and in that time 14 00:00:51,161 --> 00:00:54,361 Speaker 2: there were thousands of armed robberies every year across Australia. 15 00:00:54,481 --> 00:00:57,321 Speaker 2: That led to a kind of cult status among criminals. 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,681 Speaker 2: The counter jumpers, as they were known, were regarded highly 17 00:01:00,721 --> 00:01:02,001 Speaker 2: among the criminal class. 18 00:01:02,721 --> 00:01:06,961 Speaker 3: Escaped convict Ray Denning taunted for again today, boasting of 19 00:01:07,001 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: his freedom and daring them to catch him. 20 00:01:10,521 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: Names like Ray Denning, Ray Chuck Bennett, and Russell Cox 21 00:01:14,121 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: were revered in the underworld and even romanticized by some 22 00:01:17,601 --> 00:01:21,241 Speaker 2: members of the public. In reality, these men were brutal 23 00:01:21,321 --> 00:01:25,041 Speaker 2: egomaniacs with no regard for public safety as they wreaked 24 00:01:25,081 --> 00:01:29,241 Speaker 2: havoc in the community and left their victims with terrible trauma. 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,961 Speaker 1: By the late nineteen eighties, armed robberies in Australia had 26 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: peaked at over six thousand incidents a year. 27 00:01:36,521 --> 00:01:39,801 Speaker 2: Finally, in the nineteen nineties, technology began to catch up 28 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,761 Speaker 2: with the bank robbers with bulletproof security screens, CCTV and 29 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,841 Speaker 2: other developments that put an end to this trade. My 30 00:01:47,921 --> 00:01:51,921 Speaker 2: guest today, retired Detective Ray Lamby, joined the Armed Robbery 31 00:01:51,961 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: Squad of New South Wales Police in nineteen eighty five, 32 00:01:55,441 --> 00:01:58,041 Speaker 2: at the height of this so called golden age of 33 00:01:58,161 --> 00:02:01,201 Speaker 2: armed robberies, and he's agreed to share some memories of 34 00:02:01,201 --> 00:02:03,281 Speaker 2: those heady and dangerous times. 35 00:02:03,361 --> 00:02:06,321 Speaker 1: Gid I rap, good morning, Adam, how are you good? 36 00:02:06,361 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: Thank you so you joined the arm robbers ninety eighty five. 37 00:02:09,721 --> 00:02:10,721 Speaker 2: It was a hectic time. 38 00:02:11,401 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 3: It was a very hectic time and it was very 39 00:02:13,841 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 3: much a new experience for me. I was the first 40 00:02:16,601 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: detective to go into the arm table up squad as 41 00:02:19,281 --> 00:02:22,641 Speaker 3: a permanent transfer who had not completed their designation as 42 00:02:22,641 --> 00:02:25,201 Speaker 3: a detective, so it was very much a steep learning 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:26,801 Speaker 3: curve for me, and what. 44 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,841 Speaker 2: Were you faced with what was the daily task of 45 00:02:28,881 --> 00:02:29,721 Speaker 2: the squad at the time. 46 00:02:30,161 --> 00:02:32,721 Speaker 3: So it's important to understand at this stage that the 47 00:02:32,721 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: squad itself comprised about sixty men. And when I say 48 00:02:37,001 --> 00:02:39,201 Speaker 3: sixty men, we didn't have any women in the squad 49 00:02:39,201 --> 00:02:42,201 Speaker 3: at that stage. So it was a system of pairs 50 00:02:42,641 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 3: where you'd have a senior man and a junior man, 51 00:02:44,761 --> 00:02:47,961 Speaker 3: and across the group, you know, you would have geographically 52 00:02:48,121 --> 00:02:52,041 Speaker 3: based people who would take care of the informants, et cetera, 53 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: or the crimes that were taking place in those areas. 54 00:02:54,361 --> 00:02:57,721 Speaker 3: It was not a geographically determined situation, but a lot 55 00:02:57,761 --> 00:03:00,001 Speaker 3: of people who came from places like I do, from 56 00:03:00,001 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: the Solent Shot or from the Northern Beaches area, had 57 00:03:03,201 --> 00:03:05,801 Speaker 3: their own network of informants. They had their own network 58 00:03:05,841 --> 00:03:09,601 Speaker 3: of contacts, businesses, etc. That they would use to stay 59 00:03:09,601 --> 00:03:12,121 Speaker 3: ahead of the game or in fact go after the 60 00:03:12,161 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 3: criminals that were in the area at the time. 61 00:03:14,161 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: Right, it seems like you want to stay ahead of 62 00:03:15,761 --> 00:03:18,361 Speaker 2: the game. It's always the object of policing. But it 63 00:03:18,361 --> 00:03:20,481 Speaker 2: seems like there was a lot of reactive work going 64 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,681 Speaker 2: on as well, because it was just so many robberies 65 00:03:22,721 --> 00:03:24,441 Speaker 2: going off, and it wasn't just banks, it was a 66 00:03:24,441 --> 00:03:26,761 Speaker 2: whole range of any outlet holding cash. 67 00:03:27,201 --> 00:03:29,961 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And what you actually have here is in an 68 00:03:30,041 --> 00:03:33,441 Speaker 3: arm robber you have the most classic serialized offender. It's 69 00:03:33,481 --> 00:03:37,361 Speaker 3: the most classic serialized offense, and it's also a serialized investigation. 70 00:03:37,521 --> 00:03:40,401 Speaker 3: So in a day's work at the armhold up squad, 71 00:03:40,441 --> 00:03:43,201 Speaker 3: you would actually have a briefing on what had occurred 72 00:03:43,281 --> 00:03:45,601 Speaker 3: in the past twenty four hours, and one of the 73 00:03:45,641 --> 00:03:48,681 Speaker 3: things that we would have is swift access to, say, 74 00:03:48,721 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 3: for instance, the bank photographs that were taken during the 75 00:03:51,761 --> 00:03:54,121 Speaker 3: commission of the offenses. So there needed to be a 76 00:03:54,201 --> 00:03:57,241 Speaker 3: chain of continuity for those photographs to make sure that 77 00:03:57,281 --> 00:04:00,441 Speaker 3: they were of evidentiary value, So within twenty four hours 78 00:04:00,481 --> 00:04:03,161 Speaker 3: we would have those from the following day, and then 79 00:04:03,201 --> 00:04:06,441 Speaker 3: we would take care of assessing with firstly as this 80 00:04:06,521 --> 00:04:09,681 Speaker 3: serialized defender was, if we'd seen him before in images 81 00:04:09,721 --> 00:04:12,201 Speaker 3: from another bank propering, you know, if it wasn't a 82 00:04:12,201 --> 00:04:15,121 Speaker 3: bank robbery, who was the victim, what type of business 83 00:04:15,241 --> 00:04:18,121 Speaker 3: was it, where was it, what type of car was used, 84 00:04:18,121 --> 00:04:20,241 Speaker 3: what types of words were said, how many people were 85 00:04:20,241 --> 00:04:22,961 Speaker 3: in the crew, the types of weapons that were used 86 00:04:22,961 --> 00:04:25,601 Speaker 3: and the words were actually said. These were all parts 87 00:04:25,601 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: of them of the offender that we used to assess 88 00:04:28,561 --> 00:04:31,401 Speaker 3: in order to be able to look at that serialized investigation, 89 00:04:31,481 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: because much like a gesaw puzzle, each one of those 90 00:04:34,761 --> 00:04:38,281 Speaker 3: offenses would actually provide more information about the offenders, not 91 00:04:38,361 --> 00:04:41,001 Speaker 3: specifically enough for the one offense, but when you looked 92 00:04:41,041 --> 00:04:44,161 Speaker 3: at them collectively, you'd be able to actually determine what 93 00:04:44,281 --> 00:04:46,641 Speaker 3: evidence may be available from the range of offenses these 94 00:04:46,641 --> 00:04:47,481 Speaker 3: people had committed. 95 00:04:48,361 --> 00:04:53,081 Speaker 2: We had a cohort in Victoria of experienced arm robbers, 96 00:04:53,121 --> 00:04:55,041 Speaker 2: if you like. Did you have the same sort of 97 00:04:55,041 --> 00:04:57,241 Speaker 2: thing in New South Wales? Were you dealing with a 98 00:04:57,361 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 2: small pool of people or was it something that the 99 00:05:00,281 --> 00:05:03,001 Speaker 2: crooks were seeing as an opportunity The banks were soft 100 00:05:03,001 --> 00:05:07,441 Speaker 2: targets and amateurs could get base, anybody with a balaclava 101 00:05:07,521 --> 00:05:10,001 Speaker 2: and a weapon could get in or what was the situation? 102 00:05:10,401 --> 00:05:13,281 Speaker 3: Well, absolutely, but we need to look at the get 103 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,161 Speaker 3: back to the grassroots for the bad guys here the 104 00:05:15,161 --> 00:05:18,721 Speaker 3: criminal fraternity, and basically what is actually happening is that 105 00:05:19,201 --> 00:05:22,561 Speaker 3: I can use the example of their motivation. So the 106 00:05:22,601 --> 00:05:25,801 Speaker 3: motivation for an arm robber in the eighties and early 107 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,001 Speaker 3: nineties may have actually been the fact that they were 108 00:05:28,041 --> 00:05:31,041 Speaker 3: drug addicted and they needed large amounts of cash daily 109 00:05:31,361 --> 00:05:33,561 Speaker 3: in order to actually facilitate. 110 00:05:33,001 --> 00:05:34,001 Speaker 1: Their drug habits. 111 00:05:34,081 --> 00:05:37,361 Speaker 3: And bear in mind that behind every man there's a 112 00:05:37,361 --> 00:05:39,481 Speaker 3: good woman, so there may have been a double addiction 113 00:05:39,561 --> 00:05:41,921 Speaker 3: involved as well. If you had a crew of three 114 00:05:42,001 --> 00:05:45,601 Speaker 3: or four, then you actually had needs for large amounts 115 00:05:45,601 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: of cash on a daily basis. So the frequency of 116 00:05:48,041 --> 00:05:51,761 Speaker 3: your drug addiction would actually determine the amount of crimes 117 00:05:51,761 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: that you would actually have to commit to not go 118 00:05:54,161 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: out and fill euphoric but in order not just to 119 00:05:56,361 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: fell sick. So we have seen some changes in recent 120 00:05:59,481 --> 00:06:02,161 Speaker 3: times into the motivations of these people, whether they be 121 00:06:02,241 --> 00:06:05,401 Speaker 3: career criminals, and in particular in the nineties, we saw 122 00:06:05,481 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: people change from what they were doing in a different 123 00:06:08,481 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: type of crime into becoming lifestyle type criminals. 124 00:06:11,361 --> 00:06:12,801 Speaker 1: And the lifestyle criminals they. 125 00:06:12,721 --> 00:06:18,681 Speaker 3: Were encouraged everything from drug addiction, alcohol, sex workers and 126 00:06:18,841 --> 00:06:21,001 Speaker 3: just living it up. And those referred to it as 127 00:06:21,001 --> 00:06:23,361 Speaker 3: the fast and furious type of offender. 128 00:06:24,281 --> 00:06:27,281 Speaker 2: So how would you go about developing human sources to 129 00:06:27,361 --> 00:06:30,041 Speaker 2: work out who and what was going to happen. 130 00:06:31,081 --> 00:06:33,761 Speaker 3: Well, if you think closely about this as the type 131 00:06:33,761 --> 00:06:35,201 Speaker 3: of offender that an arm robber is. 132 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:36,921 Speaker 1: And this is not me saying that it is. 133 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: My experience, but the Australian Institute of Criminology have identified 134 00:06:40,241 --> 00:06:43,241 Speaker 3: that arm robbers are the most classic precuitus offenders. So 135 00:06:43,281 --> 00:06:46,161 Speaker 3: what you actually have is people who are recycled. They 136 00:06:46,201 --> 00:06:49,201 Speaker 3: become recycled. Whatever that motivation is that gets and become 137 00:06:49,241 --> 00:06:51,441 Speaker 3: an arm robber and accept the risk of getting caught 138 00:06:51,481 --> 00:06:53,681 Speaker 3: and going to jail or even worse, getting killed on 139 00:06:53,681 --> 00:06:57,161 Speaker 3: the spot, it is a continuing motivation. So basically, when 140 00:06:57,161 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 3: you have that, you can meet these people, you see 141 00:06:59,921 --> 00:07:02,561 Speaker 3: them being recycled, you can actually recognize them, which happened 142 00:07:02,601 --> 00:07:05,161 Speaker 3: on many times through the bank photos. It said for 143 00:07:05,201 --> 00:07:07,961 Speaker 3: all the other victim photographs that were taken and see 144 00:07:08,001 --> 00:07:10,521 Speaker 3: them recycle. Now, if you treat them properly at the 145 00:07:10,561 --> 00:07:13,161 Speaker 3: time of your first meeting with them, you can actually 146 00:07:13,441 --> 00:07:16,601 Speaker 3: encourage a relationship and sooner or later those types of 147 00:07:16,601 --> 00:07:18,481 Speaker 3: people will come to you and say, look, I need 148 00:07:18,521 --> 00:07:20,441 Speaker 3: a hand, can you help me out? So that's how 149 00:07:20,441 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 3: we would basically encourage that unofficial liaison or informer type 150 00:07:26,201 --> 00:07:28,241 Speaker 3: base for these people to come forward and assist in 151 00:07:28,281 --> 00:07:28,721 Speaker 3: the future. 152 00:07:29,321 --> 00:07:32,761 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I guess you talk about recipibus criminals being 153 00:07:32,881 --> 00:07:35,361 Speaker 2: arm robbers, but you've also got, if they're drug addicts, 154 00:07:35,361 --> 00:07:39,921 Speaker 2: a coored of often malleable informants who are prepared to 155 00:07:40,121 --> 00:07:42,441 Speaker 2: give them up. Was that part of the strategy, just 156 00:07:42,441 --> 00:07:44,601 Speaker 2: trying to work out who these guys were and where 157 00:07:44,641 --> 00:07:45,201 Speaker 2: to get them. 158 00:07:45,281 --> 00:07:48,921 Speaker 3: Well, that's correct, and basically you know, so these guys 159 00:07:48,921 --> 00:07:50,441 Speaker 3: may have been the guys who are going out and 160 00:07:50,521 --> 00:07:52,881 Speaker 3: robbing places in order to get the money and then 161 00:07:52,921 --> 00:07:55,321 Speaker 3: spending it with drug dealers, but drug dealers would also 162 00:07:55,321 --> 00:07:58,361 Speaker 3: need a hand. So if the drug dealers we're looking 163 00:07:58,361 --> 00:08:01,121 Speaker 3: for some type of letter of comfort through the court system, 164 00:08:01,481 --> 00:08:04,681 Speaker 3: then they would be prepared to assist in providing intelligence 165 00:08:05,041 --> 00:08:08,761 Speaker 3: information in relation to any specific crime or the persons 166 00:08:08,761 --> 00:08:10,121 Speaker 3: who they believe may have been doing that. 167 00:08:10,281 --> 00:08:11,721 Speaker 1: So it's a cycle. 168 00:08:12,241 --> 00:08:16,041 Speaker 2: Yes, Bertie Kidd recruited a number of police officers under 169 00:08:16,041 --> 00:08:19,121 Speaker 2: his payroll who were prepared to almost go ahead of 170 00:08:19,201 --> 00:08:22,841 Speaker 2: him and do reconnoiter of places where he could cut safe. 171 00:08:22,641 --> 00:08:23,641 Speaker 4: Or even do our robberies. 172 00:08:23,961 --> 00:08:25,481 Speaker 2: Did you have a bit of that issue as well, 173 00:08:25,641 --> 00:08:28,161 Speaker 2: that the people in the force might have been willing 174 00:08:28,201 --> 00:08:30,241 Speaker 2: to assist some of these guys for cash and fund 175 00:08:30,281 --> 00:08:30,641 Speaker 2: as well. 176 00:08:31,241 --> 00:08:33,441 Speaker 3: Yeah, just as a leading I met Bertie Kid on 177 00:08:33,481 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: a number of occasions up here in Sydney. He's a 178 00:08:35,361 --> 00:08:39,121 Speaker 3: very cunning criminal. He was a very engaging person as well. 179 00:08:39,201 --> 00:08:42,281 Speaker 3: He was quite charismatic. He was someone you could actually 180 00:08:42,281 --> 00:08:44,921 Speaker 3: have a conversation with, but the conversation was always to 181 00:08:45,001 --> 00:08:47,441 Speaker 3: be in his benefit. And in fact I spoke to 182 00:08:47,521 --> 00:08:49,801 Speaker 3: him one night I think it was the night, I 183 00:08:49,841 --> 00:08:51,681 Speaker 3: can't remember who it was, but he was virtually trying 184 00:08:51,721 --> 00:08:52,721 Speaker 3: to give himself an alibi. 185 00:08:53,361 --> 00:08:54,681 Speaker 1: It was an alibi for murder. 186 00:08:55,281 --> 00:08:58,441 Speaker 3: So with Bertie Kidd, a very cunning criminal, a very 187 00:08:58,721 --> 00:09:01,401 Speaker 3: skillful criminal and had been around for a long time 188 00:09:01,601 --> 00:09:04,001 Speaker 3: and was known in the trade as in criminal investigation 189 00:09:04,081 --> 00:09:07,481 Speaker 3: as one of the old killers. But yes, corruption is 190 00:09:07,521 --> 00:09:11,721 Speaker 3: always something which could occur. I mean it's historically documented 191 00:09:11,761 --> 00:09:13,561 Speaker 3: about the corruption in New South Wales as. 192 00:09:13,441 --> 00:09:14,881 Speaker 4: Well, it is. 193 00:09:14,921 --> 00:09:17,041 Speaker 2: And that would have been either the murder of Desi 194 00:09:17,121 --> 00:09:19,161 Speaker 2: Lewis or roy Therger imagine. 195 00:09:19,281 --> 00:09:21,121 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it was Desi Lewis outside of the 196 00:09:21,121 --> 00:09:23,121 Speaker 3: tea out and say Telebonne dijunction. 197 00:09:23,401 --> 00:09:23,841 Speaker 4: That's right. 198 00:09:23,881 --> 00:09:26,321 Speaker 2: And he'd been I think at a restaurant or something 199 00:09:26,801 --> 00:09:29,401 Speaker 2: or even another puble where he'd actually ducked out of 200 00:09:29,441 --> 00:09:33,281 Speaker 2: the function, gone and killed Lewis and then come back 201 00:09:33,281 --> 00:09:36,561 Speaker 2: and was actually engaged in conversation with some cops to 202 00:09:36,561 --> 00:09:38,241 Speaker 2: give himself a really good alibi. He was one of 203 00:09:38,321 --> 00:09:40,681 Speaker 2: those guys who was a real all rounder, and I 204 00:09:40,681 --> 00:09:43,441 Speaker 2: guess it was interesting his final downfall up in Queensland 205 00:09:43,521 --> 00:09:47,201 Speaker 2: night in ninety seven. I believe he goes in league 206 00:09:47,241 --> 00:09:51,041 Speaker 2: with a ex prison officer and a couple of Likelis 207 00:09:51,041 --> 00:09:53,321 Speaker 2: from Sydney, and they'd tried to knock over a chemical 208 00:09:53,721 --> 00:09:57,481 Speaker 2: company in search of pseudoephdron And you see how much 209 00:09:57,521 --> 00:09:59,721 Speaker 2: he's sixty three at this time, and you see how 210 00:09:59,801 --> 00:10:02,441 Speaker 2: much he slipped from his heydays. He's working with the 211 00:10:02,521 --> 00:10:05,361 Speaker 2: next screw who actually I think gives him up board 212 00:10:05,361 --> 00:10:07,121 Speaker 2: that does some stupid things on the phone, the whole thing. 213 00:10:07,201 --> 00:10:09,601 Speaker 2: So these people had a limited lifespan that you could 214 00:10:09,641 --> 00:10:11,721 Speaker 2: say he was well passed his time, did a lot 215 00:10:11,721 --> 00:10:14,481 Speaker 2: of jail after that. But we did see this period 216 00:10:14,801 --> 00:10:17,601 Speaker 2: in the mid eighties where there were some really willing 217 00:10:18,361 --> 00:10:21,881 Speaker 2: robbers who were the people that you identified as been 218 00:10:21,921 --> 00:10:23,041 Speaker 2: the greatest threats. 219 00:10:23,681 --> 00:10:27,121 Speaker 3: Well, you mentioned earlier on about Victoria and the Victorian 220 00:10:27,161 --> 00:10:28,881 Speaker 3: police and I'll take my hat off to the Victorian 221 00:10:29,001 --> 00:10:32,161 Speaker 3: Armed Robbery Squad. They were by far, in my experience, 222 00:10:32,201 --> 00:10:34,881 Speaker 3: they were the most professional group of detectives I ever 223 00:10:34,881 --> 00:10:37,801 Speaker 3: worked with. And I worked across Australia with every state 224 00:10:37,801 --> 00:10:41,961 Speaker 3: and territory police and they were black and white. If 225 00:10:42,001 --> 00:10:43,841 Speaker 3: you were a crooked, they hated you. There was no 226 00:10:43,921 --> 00:10:46,801 Speaker 3: gray in it. If on the other side of it, 227 00:10:46,841 --> 00:10:49,521 Speaker 3: you're a criminal and you're a jack, as they used 228 00:10:49,521 --> 00:10:51,641 Speaker 3: to call them the cops, the crims. 229 00:10:51,361 --> 00:10:54,481 Speaker 1: Hated you too. But I think their professionalism was. 230 00:10:54,481 --> 00:10:56,121 Speaker 3: Actually born out of the fact that they had the 231 00:10:56,121 --> 00:10:59,161 Speaker 3: worst crooks in Australia in Victoria as well. So there's 232 00:10:59,161 --> 00:11:01,641 Speaker 3: not too many other places in Australia or in fact 233 00:11:01,641 --> 00:11:03,801 Speaker 3: the world that could say that they've had their police 234 00:11:03,801 --> 00:11:06,521 Speaker 3: headquarters blown up with a bomb, or the fact that 235 00:11:06,561 --> 00:11:09,921 Speaker 3: they've had two young uniform constables brought into an area 236 00:11:09,961 --> 00:11:12,081 Speaker 3: to be executed. So that's the type of criminal they're 237 00:11:12,081 --> 00:11:14,241 Speaker 3: dealing with. And in fact, in the eighties here in Sydney, 238 00:11:14,641 --> 00:11:17,481 Speaker 3: we actually had a number of Victorian criminals come and 239 00:11:17,561 --> 00:11:21,921 Speaker 3: visit US patters and dockers, etc. Who, because of their 240 00:11:21,961 --> 00:11:24,881 Speaker 3: own ristpanagement as robbers, they were leaving the state because 241 00:11:24,881 --> 00:11:26,961 Speaker 3: at that stage there was a spate of shootings by 242 00:11:27,001 --> 00:11:29,801 Speaker 3: the arm ropery squad. So you know, up here in 243 00:11:29,961 --> 00:11:33,721 Speaker 3: Sydney criminal fraternity, we had our home grown ones, you know, 244 00:11:34,201 --> 00:11:36,281 Speaker 3: and if you're in Victoria, they would basically just be 245 00:11:36,361 --> 00:11:39,481 Speaker 3: referred to as shipman. They're out every day and they 246 00:11:39,481 --> 00:11:42,441 Speaker 3: were doing their best. You know, we had crimes where 247 00:11:42,881 --> 00:11:46,361 Speaker 3: you know, it was high volume convenience store, petrol station 248 00:11:47,081 --> 00:11:49,561 Speaker 3: and it was virtually endless, so the people could go 249 00:11:49,601 --> 00:11:52,281 Speaker 3: out and commit crime after crime after crime every day 250 00:11:52,281 --> 00:11:55,641 Speaker 3: of their working life, and their working life was criminality. 251 00:11:56,201 --> 00:11:58,401 Speaker 3: But up here, you know, of course we had our 252 00:11:58,521 --> 00:12:01,841 Speaker 3: very own Nettie Smith as one of the major cashing 253 00:12:01,881 --> 00:12:05,561 Speaker 3: transit armored car type robbers and his crew. They were 254 00:12:05,601 --> 00:12:08,641 Speaker 3: fragmented at different stages with different crooks who came along. 255 00:12:09,081 --> 00:12:12,841 Speaker 3: But you know, there's I would refrain from calling them 256 00:12:12,841 --> 00:12:15,401 Speaker 3: good criminals. They were good at their task, but they 257 00:12:15,441 --> 00:12:18,601 Speaker 3: were very dangerous people. Because what you need to understand 258 00:12:18,681 --> 00:12:21,841 Speaker 3: is that most human beings, their primary instinct, whether you're 259 00:12:21,881 --> 00:12:25,081 Speaker 3: a crook or a cop or either, your primary instinct 260 00:12:25,081 --> 00:12:29,081 Speaker 3: to see human being is for survival. And that's unfortunately 261 00:12:29,081 --> 00:12:31,921 Speaker 3: why we had so many people who were suffering at 262 00:12:31,961 --> 00:12:34,801 Speaker 3: the hands of armed robbers, because as an armed robber, 263 00:12:34,801 --> 00:12:36,481 Speaker 3: you want to go in and achieve control of your 264 00:12:36,521 --> 00:12:39,641 Speaker 3: victims as quickly as possible. If they offer a threat 265 00:12:39,681 --> 00:12:41,721 Speaker 3: to you, that's when the worst can happen. And a 266 00:12:41,721 --> 00:12:44,881 Speaker 3: lot of people don't understand. But the fact of homicides 267 00:12:44,921 --> 00:12:47,441 Speaker 3: in Australia that one in ten of those homicides actually 268 00:12:47,441 --> 00:12:48,521 Speaker 3: starts out as a robbery. 269 00:12:50,321 --> 00:12:53,241 Speaker 2: You mentioned Eddie Smith, he only had success because of 270 00:12:53,281 --> 00:12:56,921 Speaker 2: his relationship with one Roger calib Rogerson, the so called 271 00:12:56,921 --> 00:13:00,881 Speaker 2: green Light. How true was the Blue Murder Show about 272 00:13:00,921 --> 00:13:04,641 Speaker 2: how Roger was setting up targets for Nettie and his cohort. 273 00:13:05,241 --> 00:13:07,241 Speaker 3: Well, I've got to say that I never met Roger 274 00:13:07,481 --> 00:13:09,841 Speaker 3: when I was in the place, and if you go back, 275 00:13:09,881 --> 00:13:12,001 Speaker 3: I think he left the police in nine eighty four, 276 00:13:12,841 --> 00:13:14,281 Speaker 3: and that was a year before I went to the 277 00:13:14,361 --> 00:13:16,921 Speaker 3: armed hold Up Squad. I did meet him after when 278 00:13:16,961 --> 00:13:19,401 Speaker 3: he actually did me a favor. So I know a 279 00:13:19,441 --> 00:13:21,521 Speaker 3: lot of people were in Roger's corner, but he'd gone 280 00:13:21,521 --> 00:13:23,601 Speaker 3: around the corner and up the bend at one stage 281 00:13:23,601 --> 00:13:26,721 Speaker 3: there where he actually had that relationship with Ned which 282 00:13:26,761 --> 00:13:30,081 Speaker 3: was like a symbiotic relationship. I've got no experience in it. 283 00:13:30,081 --> 00:13:32,081 Speaker 3: In fact, I'm not sure about the green light. I 284 00:13:32,121 --> 00:13:33,881 Speaker 3: know that when I was in the arm robbery squad, 285 00:13:33,881 --> 00:13:37,121 Speaker 3: the green light didn't exist, particularly from me and the 286 00:13:37,201 --> 00:13:39,121 Speaker 3: other people that I worked with. And in fact I 287 00:13:39,201 --> 00:13:41,641 Speaker 3: pinched Eddie Smith outside the Botany Council doing an arm 288 00:13:41,761 --> 00:13:43,721 Speaker 3: robby on an armored car in nine and eighty eight. 289 00:13:44,601 --> 00:13:46,281 Speaker 4: It was exciting for the arm robbers. 290 00:13:46,601 --> 00:13:49,601 Speaker 2: What was it like for the detectives who were sometimes 291 00:13:49,601 --> 00:13:50,401 Speaker 2: on the scene like that. 292 00:13:50,721 --> 00:13:52,401 Speaker 4: It must have been a high adrenaline job. 293 00:13:52,841 --> 00:13:55,241 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I don't think I've heard other people describe it, 294 00:13:55,281 --> 00:13:58,201 Speaker 3: but there is no greater experience than hunting a man 295 00:13:58,321 --> 00:14:01,721 Speaker 3: or a group of men. And basically that is because 296 00:14:01,761 --> 00:14:04,081 Speaker 3: you know the clock is ticking every time one of 297 00:14:04,081 --> 00:14:08,401 Speaker 3: these offenses is coming. There's potential for real harm, not 298 00:14:08,481 --> 00:14:10,321 Speaker 3: just on the victims, but on members of the public 299 00:14:10,321 --> 00:14:13,641 Speaker 3: who may be around and know up to an including fatality. 300 00:14:13,721 --> 00:14:15,761 Speaker 1: So it's an interesting thing. 301 00:14:15,801 --> 00:14:19,361 Speaker 3: But we talk about catching killers, and you know, I 302 00:14:19,401 --> 00:14:21,841 Speaker 3: appreciate homicide and this might be a little bit controversial 303 00:14:21,881 --> 00:14:24,641 Speaker 3: a few of my friends in our criminal investigation game, 304 00:14:24,681 --> 00:14:27,841 Speaker 3: but homicide was where robbery squad detectives weren't for arrest. 305 00:14:28,321 --> 00:14:31,241 Speaker 3: We were having around six thousand hold ups a year 306 00:14:31,681 --> 00:14:34,601 Speaker 3: and there was around about thirty on an average homicides 307 00:14:34,641 --> 00:14:38,521 Speaker 3: a year. So the difference in skills is an application 308 00:14:38,601 --> 00:14:41,281 Speaker 3: within the criminal fraternity. Is a very interesting way to 309 00:14:41,281 --> 00:14:45,481 Speaker 3: think of it. But we obviously have issues with adrenaline, 310 00:14:45,521 --> 00:14:47,521 Speaker 3: and when I went to the armhold up Squad in 311 00:14:47,641 --> 00:14:51,601 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five, we actually were doing our own assaults 312 00:14:51,641 --> 00:14:53,961 Speaker 3: and interventions. We were part of the Special Weapons not 313 00:14:53,961 --> 00:14:56,601 Speaker 3: Operations Squad and trained to do those types of issues. 314 00:14:57,361 --> 00:14:59,641 Speaker 3: At the same time, the benefit of that was that 315 00:14:59,681 --> 00:15:01,681 Speaker 3: we also had a lot of experience in the courts, 316 00:15:01,721 --> 00:15:04,401 Speaker 3: so I won't say professional witnesses, but we were actually 317 00:15:04,441 --> 00:15:06,481 Speaker 3: practiced with assistant could see a lot of the traps 318 00:15:06,481 --> 00:15:09,161 Speaker 3: that were being set by barristers along the way, as 319 00:15:09,201 --> 00:15:11,921 Speaker 3: opposed to now when you see the police give evidence. 320 00:15:11,961 --> 00:15:15,041 Speaker 3: It's a different game to what it was in our days. 321 00:15:15,041 --> 00:15:18,681 Speaker 3: But outside Botany counsel in nine eighty eight, when we 322 00:15:18,801 --> 00:15:22,201 Speaker 3: pinched Ned Smith, Glenn Flack and Harry Harris, I thought 323 00:15:22,241 --> 00:15:23,241 Speaker 3: my head was going to explode. 324 00:15:23,241 --> 00:15:24,361 Speaker 1: The dreadom was that hard? 325 00:15:25,281 --> 00:15:26,481 Speaker 4: Tell us about that day. 326 00:15:27,481 --> 00:15:30,081 Speaker 3: Well, it was a very interesting day because I'm sure, 327 00:15:30,081 --> 00:15:32,361 Speaker 3: as you can understand, there's a lot of surveillance that 328 00:15:32,441 --> 00:15:35,201 Speaker 3: takes place in this type of the game which never 329 00:15:35,241 --> 00:15:38,121 Speaker 3: comes to fruition. You know, intelligence comes in and there's 330 00:15:38,161 --> 00:15:41,441 Speaker 3: been some suspicious looking characters watching an armor car deliver cash. 331 00:15:41,841 --> 00:15:43,681 Speaker 3: So we were bound to go out and do those 332 00:15:43,881 --> 00:15:47,161 Speaker 3: every week. But on this occasion, what had happened was 333 00:15:47,201 --> 00:15:50,481 Speaker 3: I was driving home south along Botany Rail at Mascot 334 00:15:50,921 --> 00:15:53,361 Speaker 3: and I noticed that there was one of another police 335 00:15:53,361 --> 00:15:55,441 Speaker 3: car in front of me, which included a number of 336 00:15:55,521 --> 00:15:58,721 Speaker 3: blacks from the Special Breaking Squad, and I noticed that 337 00:15:58,761 --> 00:16:01,561 Speaker 3: they actually ducked off the main drag very very quickly 338 00:16:01,601 --> 00:16:04,401 Speaker 3: and took a detour, and well, I just kept going. 339 00:16:05,121 --> 00:16:06,281 Speaker 1: I got home. I've got a call to. 340 00:16:06,201 --> 00:16:08,121 Speaker 3: Say that you'll have to be the sea in the 341 00:16:08,121 --> 00:16:11,961 Speaker 3: morning at four am, and we've spotted something outside the 342 00:16:11,961 --> 00:16:15,041 Speaker 3: Botany Council Chambers that we think may be of interest 343 00:16:15,241 --> 00:16:18,721 Speaker 3: to ourselves and to you guys. So at that stage, 344 00:16:18,761 --> 00:16:21,001 Speaker 3: what had actually happened. When we got there the next morning, 345 00:16:21,041 --> 00:16:23,521 Speaker 3: we were briefed on the fact that the Special Breaking Squad, 346 00:16:23,561 --> 00:16:26,041 Speaker 3: and in particular a detective inspector by the name of 347 00:16:26,121 --> 00:16:29,601 Speaker 3: John Davidson, who's quite legendary up here, had spotted Ned 348 00:16:29,641 --> 00:16:32,321 Speaker 3: Smith and another criminal by the name of Glenn Flack 349 00:16:32,361 --> 00:16:34,681 Speaker 3: and a third person who was at that stage unidentified 350 00:16:34,721 --> 00:16:37,481 Speaker 3: outside of the Botany Council Chambers, and what they were 351 00:16:37,481 --> 00:16:41,361 Speaker 3: actually doing was their rehearsal for the following morning, and 352 00:16:41,561 --> 00:16:45,281 Speaker 3: the rehearsal was watched a distance by Davidson and his crew. 353 00:16:46,041 --> 00:16:47,441 Speaker 1: And so the following morning what. 354 00:16:47,401 --> 00:16:49,801 Speaker 3: We do was get back into position and be ready 355 00:16:49,801 --> 00:16:52,681 Speaker 3: to see what was actually occurring. And around about seven 356 00:16:52,721 --> 00:16:55,761 Speaker 3: am that morning, a van was driven to the front 357 00:16:55,801 --> 00:16:58,201 Speaker 3: of the council chambers and the person actually driving the 358 00:16:58,281 --> 00:17:00,001 Speaker 3: van was wearing gloves. 359 00:17:00,561 --> 00:17:03,521 Speaker 1: So the little bongo style van that was noticed. 360 00:17:03,641 --> 00:17:06,041 Speaker 3: We had actually set up an observation post with inside 361 00:17:06,121 --> 00:17:09,481 Speaker 3: the council chambers up on I think it was level three. 362 00:17:09,561 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: One of our detectives was watching the street front and 363 00:17:12,041 --> 00:17:14,041 Speaker 3: he was briefing us on what was actually going on. 364 00:17:14,321 --> 00:17:17,161 Speaker 1: At that point in time. We obviously thought that well, 365 00:17:17,201 --> 00:17:18,001 Speaker 1: this could be a goer. 366 00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:22,281 Speaker 3: So as we were watching via the observation post eyes 367 00:17:23,001 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 3: the man in the driver's seat wiped down the inside 368 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,681 Speaker 3: of the car, got out and walked off and left 369 00:17:28,681 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 3: the van parked out the front, so basically we were 370 00:17:31,801 --> 00:17:35,121 Speaker 3: then in weight. He then returned in another car and 371 00:17:35,201 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 3: parked opposite the council chambers at the back of a 372 00:17:37,681 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: bank car park where he had a clear view up 373 00:17:40,201 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 3: and down Coward Street and across to the council chambers, 374 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,321 Speaker 3: and as it turned out, the armored car when it arrived, 375 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,041 Speaker 3: we actually delayed the council from handing out the Christmas payroll. 376 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:53,961 Speaker 3: It was a double payroll, so they'd done their homework 377 00:17:53,961 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 3: to get the maximum reward out of one job rather 378 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 3: than having to do it twice, so we actually delayed 379 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 3: that and then it divened and took on the assault 380 00:18:01,961 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 3: upon the car. First with the cockatoo watching, we pulled 381 00:18:05,921 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 3: him out of the car in a very smart tactic 382 00:18:08,961 --> 00:18:12,321 Speaker 3: operation before he could actually brief Need Smith and Glenn 383 00:18:12,321 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 3: Flack in the back of that van outside the council 384 00:18:15,441 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 3: chambers that something was up. We pulled him out and 385 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,441 Speaker 3: I was quite surprised. He was very big mother and 386 00:18:22,681 --> 00:18:25,241 Speaker 3: he was in fact the new South Wales state heavyweight 387 00:18:25,281 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: boxing champion at the time, and we had to put 388 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,241 Speaker 3: some cuffs struggle together in. 389 00:18:29,201 --> 00:18:30,721 Speaker 1: Order to put his hands beyond his back. 390 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: At that point we discovered that he was actually sitting 391 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 3: on a revolver when we pulled him out. Then we 392 00:18:35,281 --> 00:18:37,681 Speaker 3: actually had to negotiate with the needed flak to come 393 00:18:37,721 --> 00:18:38,601 Speaker 3: out with their hands up. 394 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 4: Right. 395 00:18:40,761 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: Exciting moment, absolutely, how do you celebrate those sort of 396 00:18:44,921 --> 00:18:47,041 Speaker 2: moments back in the day, But it was obviously a 397 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 2: lot of planning from your side. You're dealing with good 398 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,801 Speaker 2: crooks who were doing their due diligence. They were prepared 399 00:18:52,801 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: to shoot it up with cops. How would you celebrate 400 00:18:55,001 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: at the end of those sort of moments. 401 00:18:57,001 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 3: Well, that day was twenty second of December, so it 402 00:18:59,521 --> 00:19:02,321 Speaker 3: was in fact the Special Weapons and Operations called Christmas Party, 403 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,041 Speaker 3: so we actually was although it wasn't planned, we actually 404 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 3: had a place to be in a place to celebrate. 405 00:19:07,721 --> 00:19:09,921 Speaker 3: So it was a red letter day in so far 406 00:19:09,921 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 3: as criminal investigation is concerned, because Ned was, in fact, 407 00:19:12,801 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 3: you know, one of the what we considered to be 408 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 3: one of the master criminals in a very bad guy 409 00:19:17,001 --> 00:19:18,521 Speaker 3: great a off the streets. 410 00:19:19,681 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: Indeed, and where did he run? 411 00:19:21,681 --> 00:19:23,561 Speaker 2: He was obviously close to the top of the other 412 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: characters that you dealt with along the way that you 413 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 2: had respect for. I mean, that's a strange word to use, 414 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,241 Speaker 2: I guess, but in those situations there is a certain 415 00:19:31,281 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: amount of regard for each other. Some of the crooks 416 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 2: don't want to be go up against some formidable coppers. 417 00:19:36,721 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 2: Was there the same sort of regard for some of 418 00:19:38,681 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 2: these crooks. 419 00:19:39,481 --> 00:19:43,041 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And it was much like the cartoons he used 420 00:19:43,041 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 3: to see where the sheep Dog and the coyat. 421 00:19:44,521 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: He would that clock on. 422 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,681 Speaker 3: You know, there was a respect, Shane, but when they 423 00:19:48,681 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 3: were on the clock doing a job, they were very 424 00:19:50,681 --> 00:19:53,241 Speaker 3: dangerous criminals. Much like the movie which is one of 425 00:19:53,321 --> 00:19:56,801 Speaker 3: my favorite movies, between the relationship between De Niro and Bacino, 426 00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,921 Speaker 3: there is that respect, and you know, it's a respect 427 00:19:59,961 --> 00:20:02,561 Speaker 3: which is earned. And one of those that I spoke 428 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 3: about earlier, John Davison had that respect to the point 429 00:20:05,761 --> 00:20:09,801 Speaker 3: that he would go around the criminal melium and he 430 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: would talk to Purple and they would know that he 431 00:20:12,241 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 3: was serious about what his intentions were as in the 432 00:20:15,681 --> 00:20:20,481 Speaker 3: investigation of certain crimes, and basically, if he was after you, 433 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 3: then he was. 434 00:20:21,801 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: Likely to gets you. 435 00:20:23,241 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 3: And in that case, I worked on an armored car 436 00:20:26,481 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 3: task force with him back in nineteen ninety one and 437 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,801 Speaker 3: we actually had the criminals who are leaving the state 438 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 3: to try and get away from him. 439 00:20:33,561 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 2: Tell me how did your family deal with the risks 440 00:20:36,681 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: that you were facing each day. We just had a 441 00:20:39,801 --> 00:20:43,161 Speaker 2: terrible incident down here in Victoria, two police officers murdered, 442 00:20:43,561 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 2: just doing a normal search warrant. But when you're going 443 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: out into the field where you know these desperate crooks 444 00:20:49,241 --> 00:20:53,441 Speaker 2: are looking for an opportunity and you're standing between them 445 00:20:53,481 --> 00:20:55,801 Speaker 2: and the bag of money, how does your family deal 446 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: with that? 447 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: Well, it's obviously an issue, and like most cops, we 448 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,841 Speaker 3: experienced that isolation. You know, it's in fact something that 449 00:21:06,281 --> 00:21:08,921 Speaker 3: members of you found me don't understand. So we try 450 00:21:08,961 --> 00:21:11,521 Speaker 3: and stay at arm's length and try and maintain that 451 00:21:11,681 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 3: brave face when there's potentially anxiety being caused, not necessarily 452 00:21:17,521 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 3: facing the criminals on the street, but by things like 453 00:21:20,761 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 3: high impact court cases, etc. So there is an anxiety 454 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,361 Speaker 3: which comes in the association of the pursuit of justice. 455 00:21:28,721 --> 00:21:29,761 Speaker 1: It's one of those things. 456 00:21:29,961 --> 00:21:33,321 Speaker 3: And I remember that I was in a criminal trial 457 00:21:33,441 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 3: for a series of armed robberies upon banks where I 458 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,921 Speaker 3: had a criminal arrested. He was a jail list pert 459 00:21:39,921 --> 00:21:42,801 Speaker 3: the time we found him hiding in the roof cavity 460 00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 3: of his mother's house. He virtually signed up on six 461 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,521 Speaker 3: separate records of interview for all the series of robberies. 462 00:21:51,001 --> 00:21:53,281 Speaker 3: I think I had about twenty four signatures off him, 463 00:21:53,281 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 3: bank photographs, et cetera. And then when we got to trial, 464 00:21:56,001 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: he was found not guilty, and I thought to myself, well, 465 00:21:59,321 --> 00:22:01,281 Speaker 3: you know, I was losing sleep over that court case. 466 00:22:01,721 --> 00:22:04,281 Speaker 3: What could I possibly have done that would have made 467 00:22:04,321 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 3: it easier? And the fact was I with a conclusion 468 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 3: that there's nothing more that I could have done. It 469 00:22:09,521 --> 00:22:11,561 Speaker 3: was up to the jury, and if the jury of 470 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,041 Speaker 3: his peers wanted him on the street, then they could 471 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 3: deal with him. All I had to do is my 472 00:22:15,481 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 3: piece of the justice puzzle, and they was to find 473 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 3: the person. And he was no doubt the right person. 474 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 3: But if he wasn't convicted, then that was not my problem. 475 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,801 Speaker 3: So basically the acceptance of those things, you know, me 476 00:22:26,961 --> 00:22:30,561 Speaker 3: being sleepless over that issue became like a like old 477 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 3: moment in my mind that I could actually fulfill my 478 00:22:33,201 --> 00:22:36,561 Speaker 3: part but not be upset about the actual justice system 479 00:22:36,561 --> 00:22:39,481 Speaker 3: if it wasn't delivered properly. When you do those sorts 480 00:22:39,481 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 3: of things, you know there is an impact upon the 481 00:22:41,521 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 3: family because you do become anxious and on tenderhooks with 482 00:22:45,281 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: the rest of your family as well. 483 00:22:47,201 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: Were there certain things you didn't want to share that 484 00:22:48,961 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: you have to wait till your retirement to talk about. 485 00:22:52,001 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: Look, it's probably part and parcel. 486 00:22:56,321 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 3: The fact that you wouldn't share that with your family 487 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 3: is because of the respect that you have for your family. 488 00:23:00,961 --> 00:23:02,201 Speaker 1: You don't want them to be concerned. 489 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 3: The guy was comfortable that I could handle myself on 490 00:23:04,681 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 3: the street and not only with the crooks. And you know, 491 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 3: whilst I was in the police and I resigned in 492 00:23:11,001 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight, I would carry a gun at all 493 00:23:13,961 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 3: times because you know, there were people who I didn't 494 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 3: consider to be friendly, whether they were robbers or in 495 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 3: the organized crime fear where I ended up working. I 496 00:23:25,441 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 3: carried a gun at all times just in case I 497 00:23:27,721 --> 00:23:32,001 Speaker 3: needed to defend myself at some stage. But yeah, Look, 498 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: that's why a lot of cops seek solace with other cops, 499 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 3: because they understand what it's about. 500 00:23:40,481 --> 00:23:42,321 Speaker 2: We saw a famous case in you South Wales of 501 00:23:42,321 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 2: Michael Drury who was shot by Christopher Dael Flannery. So 502 00:23:45,481 --> 00:23:47,921 Speaker 2: the story goes, Yes, I think that was a message 503 00:23:47,961 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 2: to all your cohort of the kind of people you 504 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:52,001 Speaker 2: were dealing with. 505 00:23:52,441 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I know Michael quite well. You know, for 506 00:23:56,321 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 3: him to survive that was a wonderful situation for us 507 00:23:59,681 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 3: that we can have him still with us nowadays to 508 00:24:02,241 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 3: tell the stories about what he did and how he 509 00:24:04,001 --> 00:24:07,481 Speaker 3: did it, and how he survived and not only survived, 510 00:24:07,481 --> 00:24:12,481 Speaker 3: but thrived obviously with significant mental and physical injuries. But yes, 511 00:24:12,561 --> 00:24:16,201 Speaker 3: it's a good story to see how Nik is nowadays. 512 00:24:15,801 --> 00:24:18,561 Speaker 2: But also indicative of I guess the war that was 513 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 2: taking place at that time between the crooks and the 514 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:24,521 Speaker 2: cops and in the area of banks. You certainly weren't 515 00:24:24,561 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: helped by the attitude of the banks, which were making 516 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,561 Speaker 2: a fortune back then and seemed reluctant to accept the 517 00:24:30,681 --> 00:24:34,521 Speaker 2: risks that they're tellers in particular, were facing. I have 518 00:24:34,561 --> 00:24:36,801 Speaker 2: a friend who was a bank teller who has robbed 519 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,001 Speaker 2: not once, but twice, looking up and seeing a shotgun 520 00:24:40,041 --> 00:24:43,321 Speaker 2: in his face twice, and to this day he suffers 521 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,321 Speaker 2: PTSD from those occasions. What was going on with the banks? 522 00:24:47,321 --> 00:24:50,281 Speaker 2: Why were they so slow to change their practices? 523 00:24:50,921 --> 00:24:52,241 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I understand. 524 00:24:52,321 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 3: You know, Look, I've met people who have been victimized 525 00:24:55,001 --> 00:24:57,961 Speaker 3: by our robbery. You know, more than a dozen times 526 00:24:58,321 --> 00:25:02,481 Speaker 3: and basically it becomes an acceptance for them. But banks 527 00:25:02,721 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 3: in the seventies, eighties, and nine nineties had to be 528 00:25:06,961 --> 00:25:10,761 Speaker 3: dragged kicking and screaming into the current day. So if 529 00:25:10,801 --> 00:25:13,761 Speaker 3: you think back, it was nineteen sixty seven when the 530 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,041 Speaker 3: Armed hold Up Squad was formed in response to thirty 531 00:25:17,041 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: five armed robberies happening that year. The public were so 532 00:25:19,721 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 3: outraged and so with the government that you actually had 533 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:27,321 Speaker 3: them take the countermeasure of forming a dedicated. 534 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: Squad of men to actually look after that type of crime. 535 00:25:30,321 --> 00:25:33,321 Speaker 3: As it transpired, we ended up having over six thousand 536 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,681 Speaker 3: robberies a year into the nineties, and we actually had 537 00:25:37,761 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 3: gone through a devolution of dedicated task forces at that 538 00:25:40,481 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 3: stage to actually look into armed robbery. But the banks 539 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,561 Speaker 3: themselves had been born from facilities management. The security at 540 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,321 Speaker 3: the banks, they'd come from facilities management and real estate background, 541 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,961 Speaker 3: not in fact and understanding the type of critical incident 542 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,321 Speaker 3: that they were trying to manage, which was robbery. And 543 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,521 Speaker 3: every time you invided someone into the bank potentially as 544 00:26:00,521 --> 00:26:04,041 Speaker 3: a robber, you were looking at really dangerous situations not 545 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,241 Speaker 3: only for your banks, but for the customers as a 546 00:26:07,281 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 3: static target for a bank. They sit there on the 547 00:26:09,961 --> 00:26:12,561 Speaker 3: street every day, open to members of the public and 548 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:13,521 Speaker 3: also members. 549 00:26:13,241 --> 00:26:14,281 Speaker 1: Of the criminal fraternity. 550 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 3: So to have open banks as encounters only it was 551 00:26:19,201 --> 00:26:21,281 Speaker 3: just inviting these people in to see what they could 552 00:26:21,281 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 3: actually achieve. And it was very, very dangerous all the time. 553 00:26:24,921 --> 00:26:28,001 Speaker 3: You know, they would actually work to the point inside 554 00:26:28,001 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: the banks where the staff would be so terrified of 555 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: not following instructions that they would put themselves at physical 556 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 3: risk from the bandits because they were doing exactly what 557 00:26:36,921 --> 00:26:40,041 Speaker 3: the bandits had told them not to do, ie don't 558 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 3: hit the alarms and don't hit the cameras. But the 559 00:26:42,681 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 3: bank instructions were in the event of a robbery, you 560 00:26:45,281 --> 00:26:48,321 Speaker 3: must activate the alarms and you must activate the cameras. 561 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 3: So the relationship between the victimers the bank teller or 562 00:26:51,721 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: the other numbers of bank tellers has become at a 563 00:26:54,761 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 3: critical point right at that time because you're actually doing 564 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,681 Speaker 3: what they've told you not to do, so it creates 565 00:26:59,761 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 3: you as the focus of the attack. 566 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,681 Speaker 1: And it was easy to work out. 567 00:27:03,521 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 3: Because the banks had cleverly worked out that to alert 568 00:27:07,241 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 3: the other people in the area if it was a 569 00:27:08,761 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 3: discreet type of probably like a loaded note, that if 570 00:27:11,681 --> 00:27:14,001 Speaker 3: you hit an alarm, we'd have a strange phone ring 571 00:27:14,041 --> 00:27:16,001 Speaker 3: in the back of the building which would sound different, 572 00:27:16,041 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 3: you know, so the bear that's do that, and they 573 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,201 Speaker 3: could also hear the thirty five mili black on white 574 00:27:21,241 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 3: still cameras going firing off at the same time. So 575 00:27:27,001 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 3: it actually created that problem in the relationship between the 576 00:27:30,721 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 3: teller as the victim and the criminal who was not 577 00:27:33,801 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 3: getting what he actually wanted by you working actively against them. 578 00:27:37,561 --> 00:27:40,161 Speaker 3: One of the worst ones was the bank would tell 579 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 3: you to hand over the small notes. 580 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: First. 581 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,561 Speaker 3: He's saying give me the big notes, and you're saying, 582 00:27:45,961 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 3: he's the ones and twos, and you're really pissing him 583 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,481 Speaker 3: off at that stage. 584 00:27:51,001 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 2: So the bank's surprise, surprise, were thinking about money first. 585 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 2: People Second, absolutely, what were there discussions between the police 586 00:27:58,681 --> 00:28:00,921 Speaker 2: and the banks about these practices and how they were 587 00:28:00,921 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 2: really their own worst enemies and they were putting their 588 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,561 Speaker 2: staff at risk. 589 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,881 Speaker 3: Yes, there was, there was always a forum which went 590 00:28:06,921 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 3: on between the Australian Bankers Association and in particular the 591 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,041 Speaker 3: different banks, the different brand banks as well, so we 592 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,241 Speaker 3: always speak to them and basically at that stage, once 593 00:28:16,481 --> 00:28:20,001 Speaker 3: we got to the point where not just the banks themselves. 594 00:28:20,041 --> 00:28:21,801 Speaker 1: But it was like groundhog day. 595 00:28:21,801 --> 00:28:23,281 Speaker 3: Every day we would go out and we talked to 596 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,961 Speaker 3: victims of arm robbery and it'd be the same critical 597 00:28:26,001 --> 00:28:29,681 Speaker 3: elements of the offense. And what we came to understand 598 00:28:29,681 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 3: at that stage is that, you know, whilst we did 599 00:28:32,321 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 3: our criminal investigation, in order to put an end to 600 00:28:35,201 --> 00:28:37,841 Speaker 3: the serial offender that was this particular bank robber or 601 00:28:38,001 --> 00:28:41,281 Speaker 3: hotel robber, etc. We needed to actually get the message 602 00:28:41,321 --> 00:28:44,161 Speaker 3: across to the victims or the potential victims, whether it's 603 00:28:44,201 --> 00:28:46,921 Speaker 3: the corporate victims as in the banks, all the face 604 00:28:46,961 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 3: to face victims of the arm robbery crime that this 605 00:28:49,361 --> 00:28:52,081 Speaker 3: was a harm minimization system that we had to adopt 606 00:28:52,481 --> 00:28:54,481 Speaker 3: through the use of body language and the use of 607 00:28:54,601 --> 00:28:57,721 Speaker 3: verbal communication skills, that we would actually be able to 608 00:28:57,761 --> 00:29:00,601 Speaker 3: get the best out of the relationship. That was a 609 00:29:00,641 --> 00:29:03,561 Speaker 3: force relationship that we wanted to get out of as 610 00:29:03,641 --> 00:29:06,121 Speaker 3: quickly as possible. It was like that McDonald's principle of 611 00:29:06,121 --> 00:29:08,481 Speaker 3: would you like fries with that? Now get out of here. 612 00:29:09,121 --> 00:29:12,401 Speaker 3: So that was where we dealt with the harm minimization 613 00:29:12,481 --> 00:29:13,961 Speaker 3: strategies for victims of crime. 614 00:29:14,481 --> 00:29:17,601 Speaker 2: Because you think about those tellers, they're just out of school, 615 00:29:18,081 --> 00:29:22,921 Speaker 2: No experience. They're being faced with very tough, ruthless arm robbers, 616 00:29:23,521 --> 00:29:25,361 Speaker 2: the banks giving them the wrong advice. Who would have 617 00:29:25,401 --> 00:29:27,641 Speaker 2: been a bank teller back then, my goodness. 618 00:29:27,921 --> 00:29:30,281 Speaker 3: I met many, many many bank tellers over the years, 619 00:29:30,281 --> 00:29:34,521 Speaker 3: and I did know a couple personally through my other community. 620 00:29:35,441 --> 00:29:40,001 Speaker 3: I wouldn't recommend, you know, it's quite an interesting situation. 621 00:29:40,121 --> 00:29:43,801 Speaker 3: But once the banks tightened their security, the criminals were 622 00:29:43,801 --> 00:29:46,321 Speaker 3: flashed out into different areas such as pubs and clubs, 623 00:29:47,001 --> 00:29:50,121 Speaker 3: and if they were willing enough, and mind you, armed 624 00:29:50,161 --> 00:29:53,161 Speaker 3: robbers are always willing, but if they're willing and skillful enough, 625 00:29:53,161 --> 00:29:55,761 Speaker 3: they'd take on people like the armored car industry, which 626 00:29:55,841 --> 00:29:58,561 Speaker 3: only asserts the fact that the criminals that you're going 627 00:29:58,601 --> 00:30:00,561 Speaker 3: to get into that are people who were actually armed 628 00:30:00,881 --> 00:30:03,161 Speaker 3: and prepared to use the firearms that they actually have 629 00:30:03,281 --> 00:30:06,681 Speaker 3: in going up against armed CA cruise with their own firearms. 630 00:30:07,201 --> 00:30:10,041 Speaker 2: When did you start to see the tide urn against 631 00:30:10,041 --> 00:30:10,761 Speaker 2: the arm robbers. 632 00:30:11,201 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 3: Well, I think that I don't study statistics much at 633 00:30:14,521 --> 00:30:16,441 Speaker 3: the moment in relation to robbery, whether it be armed 634 00:30:16,521 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: robbery or robbery with a firearm, or robbery real the 635 00:30:19,241 --> 00:30:21,761 Speaker 3: weapon other than a firearm. But I think we're still 636 00:30:21,761 --> 00:30:24,161 Speaker 3: doing around about fifteen hundred to two thousand a year 637 00:30:24,201 --> 00:30:26,801 Speaker 3: in the state of New South Wales. But basically we're 638 00:30:26,801 --> 00:30:29,441 Speaker 3: always going to have robbery, you know, and it may 639 00:30:29,441 --> 00:30:33,441 Speaker 3: be robbery of John citizen on the street who gets 640 00:30:33,441 --> 00:30:36,961 Speaker 3: smacked over their head for his Apple iPhone or whatever 641 00:30:36,961 --> 00:30:37,881 Speaker 3: he carries, you know. 642 00:30:38,161 --> 00:30:39,161 Speaker 1: Even on speculation. 643 00:30:39,761 --> 00:30:44,001 Speaker 3: But the tide basically turned in armed robbery when cash 644 00:30:44,001 --> 00:30:47,121 Speaker 3: flow started to remove. So the cash flow from these 645 00:30:47,161 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 3: places and the upscilling of people like pubs and clubs 646 00:30:50,201 --> 00:30:53,121 Speaker 3: in order to deal with cash flow saw them driven down. 647 00:30:53,201 --> 00:30:55,161 Speaker 3: So it's not as if these criminals have actually gone 648 00:30:55,161 --> 00:30:57,801 Speaker 3: out of business, but they actually may have gone into 649 00:30:57,961 --> 00:31:01,081 Speaker 3: a different part of business and potentially drug dealing or fraud, 650 00:31:01,121 --> 00:31:04,401 Speaker 3: et cetera, which has much less risk associated with it. 651 00:31:05,041 --> 00:31:08,361 Speaker 3: Think it was the Godfather, the Mario Puzo who wrote 652 00:31:08,401 --> 00:31:10,801 Speaker 3: that a man with a briefcase was still ten times 653 00:31:10,841 --> 00:31:12,081 Speaker 3: as much as a man with a gun. 654 00:31:12,961 --> 00:31:18,561 Speaker 2: We've also seen where the bulletproof shutters came in and 655 00:31:18,601 --> 00:31:21,921 Speaker 2: that certainly added a lot of risk to the robbers 656 00:31:21,961 --> 00:31:23,641 Speaker 2: then even killed a few of them back in the day. 657 00:31:23,761 --> 00:31:25,361 Speaker 2: You probably recall a few of those incidents. 658 00:31:25,681 --> 00:31:29,121 Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember the first time I saw it was 659 00:31:29,161 --> 00:31:31,601 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty five at the Cornwath Bank and a 660 00:31:31,601 --> 00:31:35,001 Speaker 3: horse Straet at Bondi and we had an attempted robbery 661 00:31:35,001 --> 00:31:38,641 Speaker 3: there with three Romanian criminals who went in masked out. 662 00:31:39,201 --> 00:31:40,881 Speaker 3: Two went to go over the top of the counter 663 00:31:40,961 --> 00:31:44,321 Speaker 3: and both got caught by the screen as it went up. 664 00:31:44,721 --> 00:31:46,281 Speaker 1: Those screens go off like a gun. 665 00:31:46,441 --> 00:31:48,641 Speaker 3: They pop up in I think it's about point eight 666 00:31:48,681 --> 00:31:51,361 Speaker 3: of a second with two thousand pounds of force behind them, 667 00:31:51,881 --> 00:31:55,881 Speaker 3: and they're ballistic, so they are a very strong deployment 668 00:31:55,961 --> 00:31:59,001 Speaker 3: from the counter level. So in this case the two criminals, 669 00:31:59,041 --> 00:32:01,081 Speaker 3: one got hung up by his arm and the other 670 00:32:01,121 --> 00:32:02,961 Speaker 3: one got hit in the head and broke his jaw 671 00:32:03,001 --> 00:32:05,041 Speaker 3: at the same time. So by the time we got there, 672 00:32:05,801 --> 00:32:08,321 Speaker 3: the third offender had actually walked out back onto Hall 673 00:32:08,361 --> 00:32:10,241 Speaker 3: Street and taken off, but the two that were there 674 00:32:10,281 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 3: were still hum The bank staff left them there for 675 00:32:13,561 --> 00:32:16,121 Speaker 3: us to actually come and deal with them, and rightly 676 00:32:16,161 --> 00:32:18,681 Speaker 3: say more at the time that the bad guy that 677 00:32:18,801 --> 00:32:22,041 Speaker 3: was caught with his left arm, he had actually had 678 00:32:22,081 --> 00:32:24,681 Speaker 3: the gun on the counter side of the bank and 679 00:32:24,841 --> 00:32:27,681 Speaker 3: was actually firing shots across at the bank staff telling 680 00:32:27,721 --> 00:32:28,481 Speaker 3: him to let him down. 681 00:32:28,681 --> 00:32:32,321 Speaker 1: So a very dangerous situation. I knew of another one up. 682 00:32:32,281 --> 00:32:35,321 Speaker 3: On the North side of Sydney where the bad guy 683 00:32:35,361 --> 00:32:38,161 Speaker 3: who got caught while the pneumatic screen was actually killed 684 00:32:38,201 --> 00:32:41,721 Speaker 3: on the spot. So they do create that's that risk 685 00:32:41,761 --> 00:32:44,881 Speaker 3: factor and that deterrent effect to looking for a different 686 00:32:44,921 --> 00:32:47,881 Speaker 3: target like a bank that hadn't been fitted with ballistic 687 00:32:47,961 --> 00:32:51,201 Speaker 3: sperience yet, or a different motus operandi where the band 688 00:32:51,281 --> 00:32:54,121 Speaker 3: guys would actually look for a chick in the armor 689 00:32:54,241 --> 00:32:56,881 Speaker 3: of the bank branch in particular or the bank brand 690 00:32:56,961 --> 00:33:03,001 Speaker 3: in particular. So say, for instance, Kiosks or ATMs. You know, 691 00:33:03,201 --> 00:33:05,601 Speaker 3: the delivery of cash to the ATMs will be serviced 692 00:33:05,721 --> 00:33:10,001 Speaker 3: ATM's being serviced by a third party location who's actually 693 00:33:10,281 --> 00:33:13,721 Speaker 3: recycling their own business cash through that ATM and back out. 694 00:33:14,041 --> 00:33:17,921 Speaker 3: So it's an interesting situation. But it's like a game 695 00:33:17,961 --> 00:33:20,521 Speaker 3: of chess. If you make a move to actually count 696 00:33:20,561 --> 00:33:23,241 Speaker 3: the criminals, the criminals will make a counter move to 697 00:33:23,361 --> 00:33:25,361 Speaker 3: actually make their opportunities. 698 00:33:26,201 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: And remarkably enough, maybe it's because of Australia's background is 699 00:33:29,441 --> 00:33:31,601 Speaker 2: a penal colony in the beginning, but there was a 700 00:33:31,641 --> 00:33:35,961 Speaker 2: certain romanticizing of these figures. Was that frustrating to you? 701 00:33:36,321 --> 00:33:39,361 Speaker 2: People like Raymond John Denning was suddenly a celebrity of 702 00:33:39,401 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: the left if you like doing that sort of an 703 00:33:42,481 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: interesting phenomenon for you. 704 00:33:44,121 --> 00:33:47,121 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, I remember Ray Denning and I remember 705 00:33:47,121 --> 00:33:49,361 Speaker 3: at the time where he came and placed his handprint 706 00:33:49,401 --> 00:33:51,721 Speaker 3: on the front of the doors of the cob and 707 00:33:52,201 --> 00:33:54,041 Speaker 3: did an actual interview I think it was with Current 708 00:33:54,041 --> 00:33:56,681 Speaker 3: Affair or something like that. But he was a recipivvers 709 00:33:56,801 --> 00:34:00,121 Speaker 3: arm robber and ultimately a jail escapee who managed to 710 00:34:00,161 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 3: track down Peter melvil Schnitzeling or Russell Cox within like 711 00:34:04,601 --> 00:34:07,601 Speaker 3: seven him being out and they came to grief down 712 00:34:07,641 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 3: in Melbourne at the hands of the armed robbery squad 713 00:34:10,001 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 3: where they were sprung doing a surveillance on an armed 714 00:34:12,641 --> 00:34:15,481 Speaker 3: car crew. But go back to the Australian culture, and 715 00:34:15,601 --> 00:34:18,121 Speaker 3: you know, everybody likes to have a fair go, and 716 00:34:18,801 --> 00:34:22,601 Speaker 3: the culture of the Australian Alarican maybe an anti establishment 717 00:34:22,681 --> 00:34:25,801 Speaker 3: type perspective. But in all the training that I've done 718 00:34:25,881 --> 00:34:29,041 Speaker 3: with potential victims of crimes like armed robbery, I will 719 00:34:29,081 --> 00:34:32,161 Speaker 3: ask them a question and say, as we start this, 720 00:34:32,281 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 3: I just want to ask you something, you know, can 721 00:34:34,561 --> 00:34:37,561 Speaker 3: you give me an Australian folk hero, and quite quickly 722 00:34:37,601 --> 00:34:39,801 Speaker 3: everybody comes up with the same Australian folk hero and 723 00:34:39,881 --> 00:34:43,161 Speaker 3: it never varies. It's always need Kelly. And I said, 724 00:34:43,601 --> 00:34:46,041 Speaker 3: so you're a potential victim of an armed robbery, but 725 00:34:46,201 --> 00:34:49,481 Speaker 3: in your mind, an Australian folk hero is an armed 726 00:34:49,521 --> 00:34:52,841 Speaker 3: robber who shoots it out with police. You can see 727 00:34:52,881 --> 00:34:55,161 Speaker 3: it's like a light bulb moment for them. We have 728 00:34:55,321 --> 00:34:57,961 Speaker 3: this culture that accepts the fact that, you know, the 729 00:34:58,001 --> 00:35:01,561 Speaker 3: Alarican or the criminal may be something that I'm not 730 00:35:01,721 --> 00:35:04,721 Speaker 3: suggesting that we aspire to it, but we understand the fight. 731 00:35:04,801 --> 00:35:06,361 Speaker 1: Again, it's injustice. 732 00:35:07,041 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 2: It's kind of confusing, isn't it, because because the Kelly 733 00:35:09,041 --> 00:35:12,521 Speaker 2: gang killed police in cold blood. Yes, and yet they 734 00:35:12,561 --> 00:35:15,561 Speaker 2: are romanticized and these guys are comes to mind that 735 00:35:16,001 --> 00:35:19,361 Speaker 2: the film butchcasting The Something's Kid, which was again about 736 00:35:19,401 --> 00:35:21,681 Speaker 2: the end of an era in the wild West. There 737 00:35:21,721 --> 00:35:24,041 Speaker 2: and Butchcasidy goes into the bank and they've got all 738 00:35:24,081 --> 00:35:26,801 Speaker 2: these screens and security things and he says to the guard, 739 00:35:26,881 --> 00:35:27,601 Speaker 2: he says, what. 740 00:35:27,641 --> 00:35:28,641 Speaker 4: Happened to the old bank? 741 00:35:29,081 --> 00:35:31,841 Speaker 2: People kept robbing it but it was beautiful, you know, 742 00:35:32,361 --> 00:35:33,801 Speaker 2: And there was that sort of I think we grew 743 00:35:33,881 --> 00:35:37,161 Speaker 2: up with that film maybe the media was partly to blame. 744 00:35:37,241 --> 00:35:39,161 Speaker 4: Do you think that these guys were good. 745 00:35:39,041 --> 00:35:41,761 Speaker 2: Copy and they were desperate and they were quite charismatic 746 00:35:41,841 --> 00:35:42,201 Speaker 2: some of them. 747 00:35:42,801 --> 00:35:44,321 Speaker 1: Yeah, look, you still see it now. 748 00:35:44,401 --> 00:35:49,601 Speaker 3: It's not so much for romanticization of you know, even nowadays. 749 00:35:49,801 --> 00:35:51,761 Speaker 1: You know, like I was reading. 750 00:35:53,081 --> 00:35:57,841 Speaker 3: News media as in online papers in recent years, and 751 00:35:58,241 --> 00:36:04,001 Speaker 3: they talk about these robberies being magnificent masterpieces of criminal conduct, 752 00:36:04,601 --> 00:36:08,481 Speaker 3: and the reality is they're not. You know, there's a 753 00:36:08,561 --> 00:36:10,401 Speaker 3: ton of front involved in these types of things in 754 00:36:10,441 --> 00:36:13,281 Speaker 3: public spaces to actually go and attack an armored car crew. 755 00:36:13,841 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 3: But the fact is that they're not particularly smart, they're 756 00:36:18,001 --> 00:36:22,121 Speaker 3: not particularly cunning, and they all just revolve around that 757 00:36:22,281 --> 00:36:24,641 Speaker 3: brazenness of being in this public place at the time, 758 00:36:25,281 --> 00:36:26,921 Speaker 3: and they're very dangerous. 759 00:36:27,121 --> 00:36:30,361 Speaker 1: You know. It's not the sort of thing that we 760 00:36:30,401 --> 00:36:33,041 Speaker 1: should be trying to glorify as this guy is the worst. 761 00:36:33,961 --> 00:36:34,161 Speaker 4: Yeah. 762 00:36:34,641 --> 00:36:37,121 Speaker 2: Ray, Well, so I'm very glad that you worked hard. 763 00:36:37,241 --> 00:36:39,361 Speaker 2: You thank you for your service, and you kept us 764 00:36:39,361 --> 00:36:42,481 Speaker 2: safe in that period of time. And by nineteen ninety eight, 765 00:36:42,521 --> 00:36:44,681 Speaker 2: I guess you were ready to finish up and do 766 00:36:44,801 --> 00:36:45,281 Speaker 2: something else. 767 00:36:45,761 --> 00:36:48,841 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I took the opportunity and the lead up 768 00:36:48,881 --> 00:36:52,081 Speaker 3: to the Sydney Olympic Games to start my own security 769 00:36:52,121 --> 00:36:55,121 Speaker 3: consultancy and that kept me going for the next twenty years. 770 00:36:56,041 --> 00:36:58,321 Speaker 2: All right, well, thanks for your time today as a pleasure, 771 00:36:58,521 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: nice to talk to you. Fantastic. That's retired Detective Ray 772 00:37:03,561 --> 00:37:06,401 Speaker 2: Lamby on the Golden are so called. It wasn't very 773 00:37:06,441 --> 00:37:08,521 Speaker 2: golden for those who were having the guns shoved in 774 00:37:08,561 --> 00:37:11,881 Speaker 2: their faces robberies. But if you've been a victim of 775 00:37:11,961 --> 00:37:14,241 Speaker 2: crime or even a perpetrator, and you've got a story 776 00:37:14,321 --> 00:37:16,361 Speaker 2: to share, please get in touch here with Adam Shann 777 00:37:16,361 --> 00:37:18,841 Speaker 2: at Real Crime. You can send me an email at 778 00:37:19,001 --> 00:37:22,361 Speaker 2: Adam Shanned writer at gmail dot com. And if you've 779 00:37:22,361 --> 00:37:25,121 Speaker 2: got any information that could solve past crimes, get in 780 00:37:25,201 --> 00:37:28,321 Speaker 2: touch with crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. 781 00:37:28,641 --> 00:37:30,801 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening today. If you've enjoyed the content, please 782 00:37:30,841 --> 00:37:32,961 Speaker 2: subscribe to the podcast and share it with your friends. 783 00:37:33,321 --> 00:37:34,041 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.