1
00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,680
Speaker 1: Ballarat's one of those places where everyone sort of knows everyone.

2
00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,600
Speaker 1: It is still a pretty big regional Victorian city, but

3
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,720
Speaker 1: there is that sort of closeness. As you spoke about

4
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 1: some of the theories and rumors that we've heard in

5
00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,279
Speaker 1: the past six to nine months, just ridiculous.

6
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,640
Speaker 2: I was staggered. It was just unbelievable. And I mean, seriously,

7
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,560
Speaker 2: this decade one of the great crime stories that they've

8
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,000
Speaker 2: made an arrest over easy story. I'm Andrew Ruhle, and

9
00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 2: this is Life in Crimes. And today we have a

10
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,160
Speaker 2: studio full of colleagues from the left, Anthony Dowsley, who's

11
00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,040
Speaker 2: recently returned to us from other parts, Olivia Jenkins and

12
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,800
Speaker 2: Reagan Hodge, our expert reporters are here because there has

13
00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,000
Speaker 2: been a year full of events. There's been crimes of

14
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,520
Speaker 2: all sorts, starting back in February. On February fourth, from memory,

15
00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,600
Speaker 2: with the disappearance of sam Murphy, Samantha Murphy at Now

16
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 2: this was a shocking thing that became more shocking by

17
00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,720
Speaker 2: the day and then by the week as it turned

18
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 2: out that there was no sign of this wife and

19
00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,280
Speaker 2: mother who had gone jogging near her family farmlet just

20
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,720
Speaker 2: outside Ballarat and it vanished into thin air. Clearly something

21
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,119
Speaker 2: very bad had happened, but we didn't know exactly what

22
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,720
Speaker 2: it was. I suspect, though, Olivia, that the police started

23
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 2: to formulate some theories reasonably early in the peace.

24
00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 3: What do you think, Yeah, that's right. Well, they were scouring,

25
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 3: as you said, bushland in Ballarat pretty much from when

26
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,040
Speaker 3: she went missing. There were very highly publicized public search

27
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 3: efforts with Missing Persons Squad and a range of sort

28
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,720
Speaker 3: of specialist teams from across different areas of Victoria Police

29
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 3: and even federal police were brought in at some stage

30
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,680
Speaker 3: as well, and with dogs with dogs as well who

31
00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 3: in some cases have been trained to specially sniff out

32
00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,920
Speaker 3: software technology in the ground and things that have been

33
00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,200
Speaker 3: hidden and buried deliberately, so they were brought in as well,

34
00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,919
Speaker 3: and of course forensic experts were scouring bushland with them

35
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 3: as well. And all of this has been done since

36
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,359
Speaker 3: February four And I say that because they still haven't

37
00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:21,640
Speaker 3: located her remains. And despite that fact, the accused, who

38
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 3: we now know to be a young man from the

39
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,760
Speaker 3: same area as well, who goes by the name of

40
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,240
Speaker 3: Patrick Orn Stevenson, who's a twenty two to twenty three

41
00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,880
Speaker 3: year old who has been in custody since around early

42
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 3: March and has since pleaded not guilty to what police

43
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:39,560
Speaker 3: say is her murder.

44
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 2: It's a fascinating case, and of course Steve will be

45
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 2: a trial eventually, and we won't be speculating about who'd

46
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 2: done what, because that would be wrong. But in general terms,

47
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 2: I can recall driving to Bellaret in that first fortnight

48
00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,680
Speaker 2: or so because I had a reason to go there,

49
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 2: and I thought I'll go up early and have a

50
00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 2: look around, and drove around past their house and in

51
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,240
Speaker 2: out those country roads and through the bush and so on,

52
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:07,720
Speaker 2: just to get a feel for it. I thought, while

53
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,360
Speaker 2: I'm here, I might as well have a good look.

54
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:11,799
Speaker 2: You know, there's dam over there, and there's bush here,

55
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,360
Speaker 2: and there's gravel road here and all that, and all

56
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,160
Speaker 2: of it very close to Ballarat itself, extremely close. So

57
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:25,320
Speaker 2: within minutes of being in bushland and farmland, you're right

58
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,960
Speaker 2: in suburban Ballarat. And if you go down there on

59
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 2: that side of Ballarat there's a pub and there's a

60
00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 2: bottle shop, and at six pm on a Saturday afternoon

61
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 2: there's three young people off their brains walking along the

62
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,600
Speaker 2: middle of the street, yelling at cars, throwing cans, dropping bottles.

63
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 4: Of stuff, clearly off their.

64
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 2: Heads on more substance than one, and it made me think, oh,

65
00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,080
Speaker 2: so you're doing that. You're doing that at about six

66
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 2: or seven o'clock on a Saturday evening one day, messy,

67
00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,080
Speaker 2: you're going to be by five am to my all

68
00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 2: right on Sunday, you're going to be very dangerous if

69
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,120
Speaker 2: you're driving around because you're clearly off your brains.

70
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 1: Brigan Hodge, Ballarat's one of those places where everyone sort

71
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 1: of knows everyone. It is still a pretty big regional

72
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,080
Speaker 1: Victorian city, but there is that sort of closeness as

73
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,800
Speaker 1: you spoke about. Some of the theories and rumors that we've

74
00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 1: heard in the past six to nine months just ridiculous,

75
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,000
Speaker 1: two graphic and too inappropriate to even publish. Horrible, but

76
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,159
Speaker 1: they are just swirling around the rumor mill in Ballarat.

77
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 1: We've been sent text messages that this might have allegedly happened,

78
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,960
Speaker 1: this person has it out for this person. None of

79
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 1: those have been substantiated in court, so it's just been

80
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,719
Speaker 1: a wild ride. We're talking American news stations picking this

81
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 1: story up.

82
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,280
Speaker 2: It's funny. You can get Australian crimes that sort of

83
00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,159
Speaker 2: they pluck a chord in the international interest. Often that

84
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,159
Speaker 2: ourt backy thing gets them in some crimes play bigger

85
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,720
Speaker 2: over there than they do here in a way, because

86
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,240
Speaker 2: they find it endlessly exotic, you know, when you know,

87
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,240
Speaker 2: I didn't go take some baby or whatever it might be.

88
00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 2: It's very interesting for young readers and perhaps young reporters

89
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:23,840
Speaker 2: to see how crazy people can speculate and how certain

90
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 2: they can be that their theory is right because they

91
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,040
Speaker 2: were told by Jabata Pabu's uncle is a policeman's best

92
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,040
Speaker 2: mate or something, and ultimately all these things turn out

93
00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,240
Speaker 2: to be hot air. It does make you realize how

94
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,800
Speaker 2: we have to be careful because people will always fill

95
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,480
Speaker 2: the void with speculation, and the speculation becomes a rumor,

96
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,040
Speaker 2: and the rumor becomes sort of a de facto fact

97
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,320
Speaker 2: in the absence of real facts.

98
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,600
Speaker 1: Which is why I guess we have to be really

99
00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,920
Speaker 1: careful reporting on this, because even if you hear one

100
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 1: of those rumors from say six people, yep, you still

101
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,800
Speaker 1: might be completely incorrect if you want to publish it.

102
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:02,840
Speaker 2: So they should have.

103
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,680
Speaker 3: Heard it from the same one person.

104
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 2: Exactly absolutely, and the echo chamber effect is very powerful,

105
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,920
Speaker 2: and it's over and over in you know, all these

106
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 2: years I've been doing it, you keep thinking, you know,

107
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,000
Speaker 2: often you hear something happened, My god, that's great. And

108
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever heard something that sounds like

109
00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,480
Speaker 2: a great story that's ever panned out to be one.

110
00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,159
Speaker 2: I might be wrong, but mostly they're.

111
00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,520
Speaker 3: Not maybe a fraction of what I've started off.

112
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,720
Speaker 4: Mostly they're just they're too good to be true.

113
00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,680
Speaker 2: They're not true. But we'll see what happens with that one. Clearly,

114
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,560
Speaker 2: probably it's an awful thing, but it's probably a fairly

115
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 2: banal explanation and place wrong time.

116
00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,360
Speaker 3: Police haven't been without their breakthroughs. You know, we say

117
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,360
Speaker 3: this noting that they haven't found her body, but throughout

118
00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 3: this entire investigation there have been updates, and of course

119
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 3: one of the most important being that they managed to

120
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 3: locate her phone in a damn that you were talking

121
00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 3: about earlier up in bun and Yong, and that was

122
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,080
Speaker 3: probably one of the most significant breaks throughs in the

123
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,040
Speaker 3: case for at least a few months.

124
00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 5: Anthony Dowsley, Yeah, Andrew, that was at the beginning of

125
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,360
Speaker 5: the year. But a story that's playing out right now

126
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 5: is the arrest over the murders at Easy Street that

127
00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,239
Speaker 5: happened way back in nineteen seventy seven.

128
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 2: Easy Street is one of the biggest crime stories of

129
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,920
Speaker 2: my lifetime, without a doubt. It's up there with the

130
00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:25,440
Speaker 2: Beaumont children and a few others, and mostly for two reasons.

131
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 2: She Street is a name that it sticks in the head.

132
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 2: If it was called Smith Street, it wouldn't have the

133
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,800
Speaker 2: same resonance. And the other one is that it has

134
00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 2: never been solved. And for what forty something is It

135
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 2: looked as if it would never be solved and they

136
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,640
Speaker 2: would never get near it, and then out of the

137
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,600
Speaker 2: blue comes on arrest in Rome late this year. An

138
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 2: astonishing development. And I would have offered fifty thousand to

139
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 2: one against it happening, but.

140
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 4: There it is.

141
00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 2: It's just it's so fascinating.

142
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,560
Speaker 1: Why are you say those odds are so long?

143
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 2: Because by and large, when somebody's been murdered all that

144
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,040
Speaker 2: time ago, you start to think, well, it's so long ago,

145
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 2: there's no evidence left. There's probably the only candidates for

146
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 2: it are dead. You know, if they couldn't solve it,

147
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:16,680
Speaker 2: then why are they going to be able to solve

148
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,880
Speaker 2: it now? And usually that's true. Usually that's right. But

149
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,440
Speaker 2: they just went back through the files. As one has

150
00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,600
Speaker 2: often said and others probably have said, the answer is

151
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 2: often in the file, that they have actually spoken to

152
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 2: somebody who knows more than they let on, and that

153
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 2: the names in the file that were collected in that

154
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,400
Speaker 2: first fortnight often hold a clue to solving an old

155
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,960
Speaker 2: crime and an old unsolved. And indeed, in this case

156
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,560
Speaker 2: we're not saying it solved. In this case, it did

157
00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:56,199
Speaker 2: lead back to week one when a guy called Perry

158
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,480
Speaker 2: Krumblus we'll call him Perry, which is short for his

159
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 2: rather exotic gris first name, was pulled up in Collingwood

160
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 2: by a very young uniformed policeman not Neittles, who was

161
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 2: only what twenty one or two or something at the time.

162
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,440
Speaker 2: He knew Perry has a bit of a local scaleywag,

163
00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,360
Speaker 2: now a kid around eighteen years old. He said, pull over,

164
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,240
Speaker 2: open the boot, give me a look. When he looks

165
00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,880
Speaker 2: in the boot, he finds a sheath knife in a

166
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,040
Speaker 2: leather sheath. Knew he'sh looking knife, opened it up, had

167
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,160
Speaker 2: a look, and either the policeman or later other police

168
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,680
Speaker 2: found a little bit of blood left inside the scabbard,

169
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:40,559
Speaker 2: a leather scabbard or sheath, and Perry Karumblus's name was

170
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 2: handed to the homicide squad of the day, as you know,

171
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,559
Speaker 2: he's got a knife feast from around there. And Karumblus

172
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,600
Speaker 2: was interviewed very robustly, as they used to do in

173
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,840
Speaker 2: those times. Was a different world, I have to say,

174
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,400
Speaker 2: and they used to interview people with extreme vehemence, and

175
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,880
Speaker 2: clearly he withstood that, and they said, well, it's not him.

176
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 2: His story is he picked the knife up near the

177
00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,480
Speaker 2: railway track at Victoria Park, which sort of makes sense

178
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,439
Speaker 2: because if somebody was running away from the murder scene

179
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 2: and they might throw it off that footbridge and drop

180
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,559
Speaker 2: it on the railway track, makes sense he may well

181
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,000
Speaker 2: have picked it up. And indeed, they didn't look at

182
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,760
Speaker 2: that guy again for more than forty years.

183
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 6: Until about twenty seventeen, around about ye.

184
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 2: Around then, in fact, yeah, forty odd years.

185
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,600
Speaker 1: What was it in twenty seventeen that come about whether

186
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:37,600
Speaker 1: he was interviewed again.

187
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,600
Speaker 2: They finally got around to going through again. One of

188
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 2: their problems was they always had a short list of names.

189
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 2: They had eight names on a list and they had

190
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,160
Speaker 2: you know, Barry Woodard the Shearer and his brother. They

191
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,560
Speaker 2: Barry had gone out with one of the girls, su

192
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 2: Zann Armstrong from Herah. The coppers always naturally thought he

193
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 2: might have been jealous. Whatever, he was a good candidate,

194
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,080
Speaker 2: they thought. And several other people they had six others.

195
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,960
Speaker 2: One of them had gone back to England. He'd gone

196
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,760
Speaker 2: to England. It's one of the eight suspects. So in

197
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,440
Speaker 2: two thousand and I'm going to say two thousand and

198
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 2: eight roughly, they had this group of eight people and

199
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,760
Speaker 2: they said, right, let's go to DNA, and we've now

200
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 2: got DNA. It's really good. And they did Barry Woodhard

201
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,120
Speaker 2: and his brother Dick, not him. They do, you know,

202
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 2: Bill Smith somewhere else, and they do Andrew Jones somewhere else.

203
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 2: And they fly to England and they go down to

204
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 2: some coastal resort place and they get some derelict who

205
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,320
Speaker 2: used to live in Melbourne and he's getting his doll

206
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 2: check and they grab him and get him to Wick

207
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,640
Speaker 2: on the spit on the thing they checked the DNA,

208
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:47,480
Speaker 2: not him.

209
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,960
Speaker 5: And there was a famous, famous racing.

210
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 2: Famous racing car driver involved. But I don't know that

211
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 2: they they don't know.

212
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 5: That well they tried to get his DNA. In fact,

213
00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:01,959
Speaker 5: I think they did from relatives, Oh yes, to eliminate him.

214
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 2: Peter Brock, we're talking about Peter Brock. He was one

215
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:06,359
Speaker 2: of many people.

216
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 4: Who had visited that house or.

217
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 2: Others include the and he told me this himself. It's

218
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 2: no secret. Bernie the attorney, Bernie Barmer, the well known

219
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 2: defense lawyer, as a young man, had visited that house

220
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,719
Speaker 2: because he'd come from Broadford and he'd been taught by

221
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 2: Suzanne Butler, so he knew he knew his old teacher

222
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,439
Speaker 2: and whatever, and he visited the house, and the police

223
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,319
Speaker 2: knew that because he left his school jumper there. He

224
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 2: still had a school jumper which he used to wear

225
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,360
Speaker 2: because back in those days children we were very poor

226
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,079
Speaker 2: and we would wear our school jumpers after we left school.

227
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,560
Speaker 2: And his name was in the back of his jumper,

228
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,600
Speaker 2: b Barma. So the coppers at that time called him

229
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 2: and said, what's your jumper doing here? And he told

230
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,959
Speaker 2: him I visited Miss Bartlett or whatever.

231
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,960
Speaker 5: So this process of DNA elimination, because they had DNA

232
00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,520
Speaker 5: from the crime saying good point is what has led

233
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 5: to a call at Perry's house.

234
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,040
Speaker 2: That short list of eight, they were eliminated, and I

235
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,280
Speaker 2: think that sort of flattened the police's big effort, and

236
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,000
Speaker 2: they went, oh, we haven't got a list. So they

237
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,319
Speaker 2: left it alone for another nine years.

238
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,240
Speaker 6: And then we get to about twenty seventeen.

239
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,320
Speaker 2: That's right, and then they said, now let's actually have

240
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:23,920
Speaker 2: a good go at this, and they gave it to

241
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,840
Speaker 2: some keen person who was a good worker, who compiled

242
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 2: a long list of what one hundred and sixteen names

243
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 2: or something more than one hundred, and of course many

244
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,559
Speaker 2: of them were already dead. So let's say there was

245
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,880
Speaker 2: ninety left on the list or something, and they started

246
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,000
Speaker 2: to pick them off, go and get DNA. And when

247
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 2: they knocked on the door of Perry Karumbla, so it

248
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,280
Speaker 2: was just one of the ninety and said, Perry, you

249
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,719
Speaker 2: know remember us, You know, our ancestors interviewed you back

250
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,640
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven. When the police approached Perry Karumblas,

251
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 2: apparently he wasn't that keen on giving them a DNA sample,

252
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,520
Speaker 2: which is he's right, and everybody's right. A lot of

253
00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,199
Speaker 2: innocent people don't like giving DNA samples. I wouldn't be

254
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 2: keen on it myself, because you never know what can

255
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,320
Speaker 2: happen with them. They can make a mess in the

256
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,080
Speaker 2: laboratory and mix it up with somebody else, and next

257
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,160
Speaker 2: thing you're in jail for something you didn't do.

258
00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 4: So it's fair enough.

259
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:20,360
Speaker 6: Now.

260
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 2: The point is he didn't give it, and he went

261
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 2: to Greece and he didn't come back, and that mating

262
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 2: more interesting than he had seemed earlier.

263
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,480
Speaker 5: And why can't we just go to Greece and get him?

264
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:32,360
Speaker 4: So please?

265
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 2: You ask that because there is a Greek law that

266
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 2: says you can't just come along and talk to somebody

267
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 2: about a twenty plus year old crime and extradite them

268
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,680
Speaker 2: because they don't have extradition with us on those terms.

269
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,960
Speaker 5: We have a marvelous relationship with.

270
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 4: Greece, we do.

271
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 2: We are the biggest Greek city outside Athens, are we not?

272
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 5: That's right, So that's surprising to me that we don't

273
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,200
Speaker 5: have any extradition treaty with that country.

274
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 2: Well, you're right, but we don't. So of course it

275
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 2: was then up to the police to to really think

276
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,320
Speaker 2: about this and work out how they could get him

277
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 2: to come home. And I think probably they worked out

278
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 2: that if he went to Italy or somewhere nearby, that

279
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 2: they could then get into pold to grab him, and

280
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 2: that scenario unfolded.

281
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,640
Speaker 5: Well, does anyone he know? Did they say you won

282
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,440
Speaker 5: the lottery and he had to pick up the prize money.

283
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 3: In Rome, there was talk of some sort of business

284
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,160
Speaker 3: venture or the state k did yeah, real estate business venture.

285
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,480
Speaker 3: There's been a few sort of yeah possibilities thrown around,

286
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 3: and it was the initial talk of some sort of

287
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 3: holiday as well. But the timing of that was interesting,

288
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 3: given that he hadn't left Greece, specifically Athens, where he's

289
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 3: got a brother that he was living with for the

290
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,080
Speaker 3: past few years, I think following the death of their mum,

291
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 3: which was you know, while he told friends he left

292
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,840
Speaker 3: and why he'd stayed since. So, yeah, he up and left,

293
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 3: and the interphole notice triggered the alert to the Australian.

294
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 2: I think it'll probably be alleged in court that somebody

295
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 2: lured him to Rome on the promise of some business deal.

296
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,480
Speaker 1: But so what how frustrating would it have been for

297
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 1: the police to have to wait till he left that country,

298
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,640
Speaker 1: till they could pounce on him, like he was there

299
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 1: for years and years. They forget about it some days,

300
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 1: But how frustrating for investigators that they feel like they're

301
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 1: so close to making an arrest but they can't because

302
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 1: of international law exactly.

303
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 2: So it was very good that a way was devised

304
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 2: to get him to go to visit Rome, and I

305
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 2: think they grabbed him at the airport as soon as

306
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 2: he flew in, So there was a team clearly waiting

307
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 2: for him.

308
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 6: The cunning plan, the cunning plan.

309
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 2: Possibly then, of course he went to the world's worst

310
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 2: prison in I think inside it might be ordinary, a

311
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 2: bit overcrowded, and he wouldn't have any.

312
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 4: Legal aid there.

313
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 2: So after a while he thought, I might as well

314
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 2: fight this back home where I can get legal aid,

315
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,400
Speaker 2: be in a nicer jail, I presume.

316
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,399
Speaker 5: So are you saying that that might be the biggest

317
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 5: trial of the year if it happens in twenty twenty.

318
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,359
Speaker 2: Five, it's one of the big ones for me, and

319
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,200
Speaker 2: if it gets to trial. But they're all good. They're

320
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 2: like children, these trials. You can't have a favorite.

321
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 6: They're all good.

322
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 5: That's how I feel about them, you know.

323
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,119
Speaker 2: And one's a little one's a little fat guy, and

324
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,880
Speaker 2: one's tall, thin, but they're all good.

325
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,520
Speaker 5: You're describing yourself and myself.

326
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:29,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really tall.

327
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,679
Speaker 3: Can I just ask some of the two women. This

328
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 3: is something that's languished over your career. It's coming into

329
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 3: the stages of Reagan and Ie because now it's language

330
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 3: is so long. It's language over Ron Riddle's career. But

331
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,359
Speaker 3: who were Susan Armstrong and Susan But they lived in

332
00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 3: the house together, but be there.

333
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 2: Well, the two Sues. There's Big Sue and little Suit.

334
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,160
Speaker 2: They came from the Northeast. They'd known each other at

335
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,640
Speaker 2: I think Baronella High School. There were good friends there.

336
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 2: Big Sue was a very beautiful woman. Susan Armstrong was

337
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,240
Speaker 2: a small, all vivacious, sort of tough tom boyish girl

338
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 2: known to my family. Incidentally, just shows that we live

339
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 2: in a village because so often when crimes happen, tragedies happen,

340
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 2: it affects someone you know. And in fact, my grandmother,

341
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 2: my dear old grandmother who's no longer with us, made

342
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 2: the wedding cake or ice, the wedding cake of the Armstrongs,

343
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 2: the parents of so when I met them. They visited

344
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 2: us once when I was a kid, not her though,

345
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,679
Speaker 2: it was her little sister for sure, and I remember

346
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 2: meeting them and someone. So they were country people. They

347
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 2: were in those days. I think farmers, the Armstrongs. They

348
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 2: go to school together, they come to Melbourne together. Little

349
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 2: Sue is a traveler, adventurous, bit ballsy. She goes to London,

350
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,840
Speaker 2: she goes to the Greek Islands. She comes back. She

351
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 2: goes to London, goes to Greek islands the second time.

352
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,400
Speaker 2: I think. She falls in love with a Greek fisherman

353
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,480
Speaker 2: on an island of Naxos. She wants to get married,

354
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,000
Speaker 2: or they want to get married or whatever, but it's

355
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 2: tricky with certain rules and regulations over there in that era.

356
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,880
Speaker 2: And she has a little boy that she called Gregory,

357
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 2: which is not a terribly Greek name, but there you go.

358
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 2: And she comes home to Melbourne after telling her Greek

359
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 2: fishermen that they'll sort it out and they'll all get

360
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 2: married later on and live happily ever after.

361
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:25,920
Speaker 4: What she actually did was.

362
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 2: Go to Collingwood and rent her house with Susan Bartlett

363
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 2: and live happily ever after there in fact, for a

364
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,879
Speaker 2: few weeks, not ever after, And she used to be

365
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 2: seen riding a bike around Collingwood with a little carrier

366
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:39,360
Speaker 2: basket on the back.

367
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 4: She's one of the early adopters of what is.

368
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 2: So common now. She was very unusual then and you know,

369
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 2: cooking up a storm and they had a pet dog

370
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,199
Speaker 2: and lived a very Bahomian life. They had a lot

371
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,119
Speaker 2: of friends and a lot of people used to come

372
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,960
Speaker 2: around for drink and a barbecue and all that sort

373
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 2: of stuff. And that made it difficult for the police

374
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,199
Speaker 2: when they were murdered, because the police it wasn't that

375
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 2: they didn't have one or two suspects. They had too many.

376
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 2: They had you know, there's.

377
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,440
Speaker 4: A racing card driver, there's a journalist. There's the journalist.

378
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: Yes, he was next door on the night of the murders.

379
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 2: He was staying with two young women who worked in newspapers,

380
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 2: one of whom I knew because I worked with her

381
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,880
Speaker 2: at the age. She was the one that found the bodies.

382
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 5: There was obviously a boyfriend.

383
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 2: Well, there were boyfriends. There were other friends, There were

384
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 2: friends of boyfriends. There were so many people who are

385
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 2: very popular in them. They were popular, well known, they

386
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 2: were gregarious, etc. And they had a lot of visitors,

387
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: and that made it very hard for the police to

388
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 2: sort of work out who was who in the.

389
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 5: Zoo and incredibly. One visitor came in through a back entrance.

390
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 2: He did while I think we both of the.

391
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 5: Victims were I think we had two weeks out in

392
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:02,160
Speaker 5: front of the house.

393
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 2: I think the sheer and his brother turned up lucky.

394
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 2: There was two of them, possibly in a way, and

395
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: one wanted to go down and look at the into

396
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 2: the house, and the other buck said no, no, it's

397
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 2: a bit rude. You can't walk in. They got into

398
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: the kitchen, okay, through the back gate.

399
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 5: And it's one of these terrors all the way at

400
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 5: the front, and then there's a bit of a kitchen

401
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 5: at the back.

402
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 2: Very long and thin, so you you know, you're twenty

403
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 2: five meters from the front door. And the other brother said, no,

404
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 2: it's a bit rude, don't go up there. And so

405
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 2: they didn't see anything and didn't hear the little boy crying.

406
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: He might have the house.

407
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 4: How eerie?

408
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 2: Is that eerie? Totally gregory, but eighteen months or whatever

409
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 2: he was. And another fellow climbed through one of the

410
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 2: bedroom windows, that's right, and he wrote down and there

411
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 2: was a telephone with the home phone number, and he

412
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 2: wrote down the phone number on his pack of the

413
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 2: cigarettes and climbed back out the window, Susan Bartlett's window.

414
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: And Susan Butler wasn't killed there. She was in the hallway,

415
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 2: so he didn't see anything. And of course he would

416
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 2: have been in a lot of trouble. But he had

417
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: a mate who driven him there. And the mate said, no,

418
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 2: I drove him there. It was ten o'clock and I

419
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 2: was in and he was okay. But these two guys

420
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 2: that could have been in a world of trouble. And

421
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: also John Grant, the journo who stayed next door the

422
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: previous night, I remember him. He was a very knock

423
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 2: about fellow for a journo. He ran around with a

424
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 2: lot of crooks. He was well known to crooks, pretty

425
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: well respected by crooks in a way that we don't

426
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: see these days. Because he worked for The Truth newspaper,

427
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: which was a sort of a scandal rag, but a

428
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 2: very good newspaper in its way.

429
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 4: I used to break a lot of stories.

430
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 2: And John Grant was good at breaking stories, and he

431
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 2: had good contacts among the crooks and among the police,

432
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: and did a lot of drinking and all the rest

433
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: of it. He had one problem, and his problem was

434
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: he'd been one of the last to see alive a

435
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 2: girl called Julie Garcia Solay about eighteen months earlier in

436
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: North Melbourne, and she clearly was abducted and murdered. There's

437
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 2: no doubt that's true. That's what happened. And three men

438
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 2: have been in her flat that night, and one of

439
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 2: them was John Grant and the.

440
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 4: Other two the other two were scllywags.

441
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 2: But one of them was a very bad man called

442
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: John Joseph Power, who undoubtedly Guilder.

443
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 6: I remember John Joseph Power.

444
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: Yes, no good you'd remember him, I.

445
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 6: Do, yes, I remember hearing about him when I was

446
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 6: a kid.

447
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah.

448
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: He was bad news. So John Grant had a big problem.

449
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 2: He didn't have form, but he'd been here. He was

450
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: next door to a double murder, and eighteen months before

451
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 2: he'd been one of three men at a flat where

452
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: Julie Garcia Slay Californian Earl had disappeared from. And John

453
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 2: Grant was probably fairly frank with the police when he

454
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: was interviewed about that. But I note with easy Street,

455
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 2: I think he went through a very robust interrogation.

456
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 5: I was told it felt incredibly unlucky.

457
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: He was very unlucky and he would have felt more

458
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: unlucky after twenty four hours at Russell Street because they

459
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 2: gave him the realms of the kitchen. I know that

460
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: because the head of the homicide's god told me later,

461
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: and no doubt so he had a real rough time.

462
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: Totally innocent. There's nothing to connecting with it whatsoever.

463
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 4: It always was, always was, Andrew.

464
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 1: Can I fast forward to September twenty twenty four. It

465
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: was a Saturday morning, the usual Saturday morning in the

466
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: office here. You were at home or was your day off?

467
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: Can you talk us through the first few moments when

468
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: you learned that there had been an arrest and a

469
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: big development in this case. Obviously you've covered it so

470
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: many times in previous years, Stagger.

471
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 2: It was just unbelievable. And I mean, seriously, this decade,

472
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: one of the great crime stories that they've made. An

473
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 2: arrest over easy straight it's you know, it's right up there,

474
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: and you know Beaumont's is the other one, and there's

475
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 2: not many others that you could think of. And mister Crule,

476
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: I guess yet, if they suddenly arrested someone for mister Crule,

477
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: it would be it'd be that big.

478
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: Did you think they would ever arrest anyone.

479
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: No, they had no reason to think that. But looking

480
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: at it now, I go, well, a lot of lazy

481
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: policing in those days and they didn't have all the

482
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: tools that we've got there yea, and Dana's the big one.

483
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 6: Now.

484
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: The Italian police have been coordinating their efforts with Australian

485
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 3: authorities over this. They obviously had a specialized team ready

486
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 3: to go when Into Pol picked him up flying into Rome.

487
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: He was obviously arrested at Fumigino Airport.

488
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 5: Yes, Canbalus sat in an Italian prison for a while.

489
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 5: There was a fairly straightforward extradition process and three members

490
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 5: of vict police, including the head of the homicide squad,

491
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 5: Dean Thomas, went over and collected him. He was interviewed

492
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 5: by police and charged with murder and rape. And now Olivia,

493
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 5: he's on remark so remind.

494
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: Where he'll maybe be in some slightly better conditions than

495
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: in Rome, where it's very overcrowded and subpar subpar jail

496
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 3: cell as we understand. But he would have undergone a

497
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 3: health check I think as well, and he's understood to

498
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 3: be in pretty good health and is understood to be

499
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: quite worried about what he's up against.

500
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 6: But he agreed to return. That's he did.

501
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 3: He didn't fight it, and I think, as you said, Andrew,

502
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 3: he probably thought he'd have a better shot at fighting

503
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: this thing if he's got better legal representation with his

504
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: interest at heart in his hometown or his home city.

505
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: He was appointed a public defender in Rome who has obviously,

506
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 3: you know, fulfilled her duty and done a good job

507
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 3: and made sure he's okay physically and mentally in everything,

508
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 3: and facilitated a visit with at least one of his

509
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: brothers over his sort of temporary detention in Rome. But

510
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 3: now that job will be handed over to a legal

511
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: counsel of his own, choosing which he can do.

512
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 5: Krumblus has already chosen his representation, Bill doug who's a

513
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 5: high profile solicitor in Melbourne. He gets a lot of

514
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 5: the big cases, so he's already got a lawyer. And

515
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 5: now he could even go for bail possibly, but he

516
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 5: would have to go to the Supreme Court to get that.

517
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 5: It's quite rare in murder cases, but it's not out

518
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 5: of the realms of possibility.

519
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 6: So what do you think, Andrew, that'd be interesting.

520
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 2: Someone somewhere will have to pull a large tin of

521
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: money out of the backyard.

522
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 5: Someone will argue that he's like life risk, but I

523
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 5: think I think that's given that the crime is so

524
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 5: long ago, he might just go for bail.

525
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 2: And he's conceivably get it.

526
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 3: He does have support from his brothers andres in Greece,

527
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 3: and he's got another brother in Bulleen, which is obviously

528
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 3: in the Eastern suburbs, which isn't too far from where

529
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: he lived for quite a long time, not too far

530
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: from his old business in Dandeong. So he does have

531
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 3: people here that may back him if he does apply

532
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 3: for that.

533
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 5: Well, that's one of the interesting aspects of this case.

534
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 5: Given he's been charged, it'll be up to the court

535
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 5: to determine whether he gets bail and indeed whether he's

536
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 5: guilty or not guilty. And so I suppose it's a

537
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 5: case of watch this space and it's going to be

538
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 5: really interesting to see where this case goes in twenty

539
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 5: twenty five.

540
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: Well, it's been quite enlightening talking to you. I think

541
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: we should come back and do this again.

542
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: See you next week.

543
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 4: Thank you, Let's do it.

544
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 6: Thanks Andrew, thanks for listening.

545
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun Production for

546
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns,

547
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au,

548
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: forward slash Andrew Rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go

549
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: to news podcasts sold at news dot com dot au.

550
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: That is all one word news podcast's soul And if

551
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: you want further information about this episode, links are in

552
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: the description.