WEBVTT - Read This: Leigh Sales Is a Professional Stickybeak 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.120 Hey there, it's Rick Morton. Our colleagues that Read This 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.480 routinely hosts the brightest and best writers from Australia and 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.200 around the world, including a lot of journalists. As it 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:11.800 turns out, today we're going to hear from Lee Sales. 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.480 Lee is a Walkley Award winner, best known, of course, 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.599 for being the former host of seven thirty on the 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.120 ABC and the co host of Everybody's favorite podcast chat 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.680 ten Looks three with Annabelle Crab. Michael Williams is the 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:31.360 host of Read This and he's with me now. Michael, 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.360 tell me, how do you actually prepare for an interview 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.800 with one of Australia's most prolific interviewers who've spent her 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.160 whole career probably talking to people every single day. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.479 Look, the imposter syndrome that does and should creep in 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.879 any time you talk to someone definitely creeps in, doubly 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.160 so when it's with someone who is a seasoned interviewer, 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:54.080 as you say, and having watched Lee do it night in, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.600 night out in her tenure on seven thirty, I was 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:01.760 definitely aware of those kind of journalists conventions, but also 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.000 her book that she came and Read This to talk 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.880 about was called Storytellers, and it's explicitly about the question 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.080 of the way in which we craft journalism, whether it's 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.800 through the monthly or the Saturday paper or seven Am, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.000 or whether it's through the kind of journalism that we 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.480 do on read this where it's not prosecutorial, but it 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.400 certainly aims to be kind of interrogative and interesting ways. 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.120 And so all of that's kind of racing through your 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.360 head when you sit down to talk to someone and 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.520 you know, there's a little intimidating I'm not going to 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:31.959 lie you know. 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:34.760 Lee obviously is a journalist, but she has quite a 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.560 storied writing career now as well. Is it a continuum 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.520 for her from journalism to writing creatively so to speak? 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:43.840 Look, I think it is, and you definitely hear that 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.200 in the interview that she gives is for her writing 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.680 books is in part about exploring things at greater length 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:52.960 that she doesn't get the chance to do in the 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.120 space of a kind of short, sharp interview. It's still journalism, 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.120 but it's journalism in a kind of more considered mode. 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:01.680 The second book that she wrote was just this little 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:03.760 essay that was published as part of a series that 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.680 Melbourne University Publishing did with little books on big themes, 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.200 and her one was on doubt, and I think if 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.200 you look at that book, you get a real sense 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:16.119 of why she writes beyond just doing journalism. It's talking 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:17.880 about the ways in which you need to bring a 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:21.760 skeptical mind to journalism. You need to kind of ask 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.880 questions not just of your subject, but of yourself, and 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.560 I think in her books she does that in really 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.280 interesting and I think kind of genuinely brave ways. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.400 And also she's just playing old nosey sometimes, isn't she. 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:34.760 Look she is. 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.639 The episode takes its time. We always like their episode 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.400 titles to come straight from something that's said in conversation, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.600 but to present something that might be a little counterintuitive. 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.720 And Lee's love of the word sticky beak and her 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.760 recognition of the fact that it applies to her plays 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:51.359 a big part in the episode, which is. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:57.120 Fun coming up in just a moment. Lee Sales is 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:58.359 a professional sticky beak. 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.120 I think sometimes the mistake that journalists make is thinking 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.400 that because they can write nonfiction, that they will be 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:16.720 able to write fiction. I think that's like thinking I 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.400 can play the piano, so therefore I'll be able to 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.720 play the cello. Some of the tools that you have 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:22.680 in being able to play the piano are going to 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.680 help you if you're learning a new instrument, but it's 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:26.679 still a new instrument. 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.840 That's the unmistakable voice of Lee Sales. Anyone who's followed 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.400 her career will be unsurprised to hear that she can 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:38.360 play both the piano and the cello, which somewhat undercuts 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:42.400 her metaphor there, but the broader point still stands, what 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.720 do you do next when you've left your job as 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.880 the host of the ABC's flagship nightly Current Affairs show. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.320 What are the instruments at your disposal for working out 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.440 the next chapter of your career? For Lee, it's always 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.240 been about storytelling, no matter the form, from her childhood 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.760 love of reading to her long career as one of 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.480 the country's most celebrated journalists to her secret desire to 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.800 write a novel. In her new book, Storytellers, Lee Sales 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.720 takes her personal passion and guiding curiosity about the business 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.479 of telling stories and turns it into a series of 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:20.200 conversations with the wide range of the country's best journalists 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:27.400 talking about how they do it. From Schwartz Media I'm 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.880 Michael Williams with read this to show about the books 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:41.520 we love and the stories behind them. Ahead of chatting 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.400 to you today, I was rereading your wonderful two thousand 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:48.839 and nine essay on Doubt, and that essay opens with 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.240 you reflecting on your childhood and on the kind of 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.320 elements that I think arguably went on to make you 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.000 the journalist that you are today. Can you tell us 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.039 a bit about your nan, your mom's mum. 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.680 So, my mom's mom lived with us when I was 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.680 growing up, and she was a fantastic woman, and I 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.040 think the lovely dynamic that you have with an adult 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:17.320 who's not your parents is so fantastic. So I was 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.200 very close to her. We shared a room until I 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.760 was about thirteen, and so it's like that trusted older 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.719 adult figure. But who doesn't, I guess, discipline you in 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:27.680 the same way that your parents do, and so you 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.080 don't have that kind of tension in the relationship. And 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.960 so she and my mother would always buy the Woman's 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.240 Weekly and New Idea and Women's Day and all those 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.400 kind of things, and they'd always be sitting around in 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.680 the house and I used to love reading them. And 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.839 what I particularly used to love was the advice columns 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.679 and reading about other people's lives and problems and reading 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.480 what advice they were given. And my grandmother, I used 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.640 to remember, she always used to have a thing against 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.920 sticky beaks. She used to be don't be a sticky beak, 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.600 you know, because it was the era, of course, where 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.159 there was one phone in the house and it was 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.599 in the kitchen, so you can never have a private conversation. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:06.840 So I would always be like, well, what was that about? 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:08.839 What did someone say? Don't you be a sticky beak? 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.880 And of course being a journalist allows you to be 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:14.760 a professional sticky beak. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.599 Even then, did you know that you were a harder 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.920 sticky beak? You had to hide that from your grandmother. 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:21.640 Yeah, I thought I was a sticky beak. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.159 I definitely was always interested in people, and I was 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.359 curious about things and curious about the world. And I 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.360 remember I'd go to bed and they'd be listening. They'd 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.880 watch Prisoner, which was on after I went to bed, 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:34.400 but I wasn't allowed to watch it, but I used 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:35.719 to be listening. 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.440 From my room. So yeah, I definitely it was always 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:38.080 a sticky beak. 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.760 I like advice columns as a way to kind of 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.320 feed that hunger, to kind of see on the page 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.159 people kind of engaging with media to share their deepest, 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.120 darker secrets. There's something in that that makes a lot 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:52.440 of sense that you would like that. 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.760 Yeah, And I think I guess when you for all 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.120 of us, when you're a. 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.159 Child, you don't really realize this as child, but your 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:03.719 world and how you think the world works is based 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.919 on what is in your immediate vicinity. So if like me, 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.600 you're having a suburban upbringing with a house where you 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.680 know your mum and dad are there, you've got a sibling, 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.680 your grandmother lives with you. Like I didn't even really 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.600 realize until my teens that that was unusual that my 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.400 grandmother lived with us. So everything that's in your normal 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.520 life seems normal. But when you say read advice columns 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.440 and things like that, you realize, oh wow, there's all 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.920 this whole world of other interesting and strange things that 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.080 happened out there, and so that that was fun. 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.880 Do you remember when you first had a sense of vocation? 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.440 Because I always knew I was a book ned and 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.160 it was going to be books one way or the other, 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.480 but I couldn't it took me a long time to 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.640 understand how that might be a job, how that might 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.720 be something that you do. And I imagine recognizing an 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.120 innate sense of curiosity and tendency to argue back to 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:57.120 your parents and being a sticky beig. We're all qualifies 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.360 you identified, but understanding how to turn them into job 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:01.520 must have been a different thing. 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:03.840 Oh, totally, I like you. 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:05.960 I also knew that I was a book dead and 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:07.960 because I just never had my nose out of a book. 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:09.520 And I used to love writing, and I was always 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.880 writing stories and reading them to my friends and so on. 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.600 And I have a very distinct memory of when I 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.840 was in grade three, did this piece of creative writing, 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.200 and my teacher, Missus Cantort, he said, that's so good. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:21.800 You should go and read it to the grade fours, 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:23.800 which I did, And then when I came back, they 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:25.560 were doing an activity where you had to draw a 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.440 picture of what you'd like to be when you grew up, 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.960 and I drew someone sitting at a desk writing. And 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.680 so really, even today, you know, one of my great 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.520 dreams would be to write a novel, because in my 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.680 own head, even though I've written, you know, Storytellers is 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.480 my fifth book. I feel like, yeah, but it's not 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:42.120 a real book. 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:43.320 It because a novel. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.880 It's a real book. And so I still would love 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:48.280 to have a go at writing a novel. And so 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.520 in my head, I think that that's what I thought 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.120 I wanted to do. But where I grew up, I 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.000 mean I didn't know anyone who was a journalist or 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.560 a writer, or an artist or a musician, Like those 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.280 were hobbies. Those weren't things that you did for a job, 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.520 And so I was looking for Okay, I like words, 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.040 I like writing, I like talking to people. I like communication. 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.680 What is a job that enables you to do those things? 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.960 And so journalism seemed like, okay, well that's that's a 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.560 job where you actually go somewhere and you get paid 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.000 and there's a reliable income. 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.040 But you know, like all kids i'd gone. 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.000 Through, Oh, I should be a cruise director, you know 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:24.959 when I was watching Love Boater, I should be a 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:26.880 vet when I was watching a country practice. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:28.640 But yeah, I kind of like you. I knew it 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:29.920 would be something words based. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.680 I could see you as a cruise director. I think 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.840 you could. I mean, you could be cruise director and 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.600 occasionally move over to the grand piano and you know, 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.959 just kind of master of ceremonies at all times. 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.880 It's you know, it's funny because it's interesting, isn't it 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:46.600 that of all of the jobs on Love Boat that 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:48.920 I seized on the one that probably of all those 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.320 people's jobs I would have made the best suited to, 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.000 which was dealing with people front of house. You know, 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.839 I didn't want to desire to be the captain. I 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:57.880 didn't desire to be Eyazac on the bar. I thought 0:09:58.000 --> 0:09:58.960 Julie's gig. 0:09:58.800 --> 0:09:59.320 Was the gig. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.559 One of the things that's so lovely about storytellers is 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.319 that the structure of it is this series of conversations 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.040 that you have with this cross section of people working 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.520 in this space, and so it becomes this rolling dialogue 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:23.000 between you and all these other people. And one of 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:27.000 the things that strikes me often talking to writers is 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.440 how solitary a pursuit it is, and how hard it 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.760 is to remember that you have peers and colleagues. How 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.800 important is that kind of network of other people doing it, 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.640 and how enjoyable was the process of going to them 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:41.440 all for the book. 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:42.760 Oh, I loved it. 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.760 I was looking for people with a really diverse range 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:52.120 of experience in journalism, right from tabloid journalists to serious 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:57.920 investigative reporters, feature writers, camera operators, and people from all 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.199 sorts of different cultural backgrounds. And so I was deliberately 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.680 trying to think, Okay, not everyone loves tabloid journalism, but 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.439 who in this country is really good at tabloid journalism, 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.320 or who is really good at commercial television journalism and 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.760 so forth? And so luckily for me, everyone that I 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.960 approached said yes, which was just so great. And then 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:21.080 the process of having the conversations was fascinating, partly because 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.080 it's reassuring. So, for example, I interviewed Lory Oaks, who 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.680 is a terrific interviewer, political interviewer, an amazing journalist. And 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.560 when Laurie talked through how he prepares for a political interview, 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:32.560 I felt relieved because I was like, Oh, thank god, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.360 that's how I've been doing it all this time. Great, 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:36.199 that must be good, that must be an okay way 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.560 to do it. But then the other thing that was 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.920 amazing was just seeing how many different ways to skin 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.360 a cat there are, and all the different approaches people take. 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.800 So many people said they think about the audience all 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:49.800 the time, and they think about who they're broadcasting to 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.120 or writing to. And then one person, Nicki Sava, who 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.560 is a columnist with nine newspapers and I think a 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.800 terrific political columnist. She said, Oh, I never think about 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.920 the audience. I just think about what I'm interested in, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.679 and then I write about what I'm interested in. And 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:08.000 I thought, Jesus, isn't that fascinating? Because she her columns 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.800 are so interesting. They're not in any way insular. They 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.040 don't feel like she's self focused. They feel really outwardly focused. 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.480 But she clearly starts from a position of thinking, what's 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.800 caught my attention in politics this week? And if it's 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.960 caught my attention, it'll probably catch other people's attention too. 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.040 She's also a fascinating example because I do think she 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.880 lets emotion be part of how she writes opinion and commentary. 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.920 You know, Nicki Sava's anger is a wonder to behold 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.240 on the page, and part of why you read her 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.319 is because you know that if she assesses a politician 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.720 and finds some lacking or insincere or whatever, she's going 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.960 to train both barrels at them. And it's that interesting 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:53.079 idea that journalistic impartiality doesn't mean not having an emotional 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:54.239 response to things. 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:55.120 One hundred percent. 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.600 I think, you know, it was really interesting with someone 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.000 like nick as well, and this is why diversity in 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:06.400 newsrooms is important, and not just cultural diversity, economic diversity 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.240 as well. Nicki was talking about her family with Greek 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.400 When she started in the press gallery in the nineteen seventies, 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:15.440 she was one of the very few women and her 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:19.800 nickname was Ethniki. That's what everyone called her. She said, 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.360 to this day, she's never forgotten that she grew up 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.840 in a working class household where her parents were illiterate 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.000 factory workers. They couldn't speak English, and that, of course 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.240 would inform Nicki Sava's work, because she's got more, She's 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.000 got that lived experience of growing up in that environment 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.720 and being treated in that way and being different in 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:40.640 a group of people. 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:42.560 One of the other stories. 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.280 That really stuck with me is Pamela Williams, who's a 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.440 very decorated journalist at Australian Financial Review, and at the 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.160 end of her interview she talks about how she came 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:54.600 into journalism, and it was that she'd had a daughter 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.000 in her twenties and her daughter had cancer and she 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.240 had long illness, and then her daughter died when she 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.640 was nine, and Pam was just absolutely on the bones 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.559 of her ass. She was on a single mother's pension. 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.760 She joined this group of skeptics because she was so 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.280 angry at faith healers and people like this kind of 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:14.079 thing and the peddling of misinformation around childhood cancer. 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.840 And so forth. And she ended up kind of conning. 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.440 Away into writing a story for a magazine, and she 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.200 lied and told them she was a freelance journalist, and 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:24.440 then that got published, and then she got another one, 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.080 and then she kind of worked away and for years 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.360 she never told anyone what her actual backstory was. And 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.400 she makes the point that journalism has to have paths 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.360 in it for people that come into it from weird 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.400 and unusual backgrounds, because they bring that experience then into 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:40.040 their reporting. 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.280 You don't bring it in in terms. 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.320 Of first person accounts, but it just might make you 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:52.040 a bit more attuned to certain stories. So, for example, 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.760 if you have a disability yourself or you care for 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.760 somebody with a disability, you have more experience in that sector. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.880 Of course, you're going to see more stories in that 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.040 somebody who doesn't have that experience at all. And so 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.280 that's why you know, when we get to bring it 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.680 back to storytelling, we're going to get a richer array 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.320 of stories that appeal. 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:09.720 To more people. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.120 If the people searching for those stories themselves come from 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.240 a diverse array of backgrounds. 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:30.520 We'll be right back coming to the world of journalism. 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.760 From a bookish bend Lee quickly came to the somewhat 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:38.120 annoying realization that while her vocation was all about storytelling, 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.600 in real life, the stories often didn't unfold in the 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:42.360 way she wished. 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.200 In my first book, Detainee two, which was about the 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.320 case of David Hicks, the Australian who was held in 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.120 the terrorist prison in Guantanamo Bay, I went to interview 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.960 Dennis Richardson, who was then the head of ASIO, the 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.520 Director General of ASIO, and in my mind I wanted 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.480 the chap to start with the day that Dennis Richardson 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.120 got the phone call to go there's an Australian who's 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:10.000 been picked up in Afghanistan. Because it was it was dramatic, right, 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.680 it was the immediate aftermath of nine to eleven. People 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.720 forget now because it was so long ago, but everyone 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.640 was terrified. We thought another terrorist attack was imminent, and 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.360 it was this shocking thing that this Australian, this white 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.000 Australian young man, had been picked up in Afghanistan at 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.560 this al Qaeda training camp, And so I wanted to 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.240 be able to write this chapter. Like you know, Dennis 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:30.680 Richardson was sitting at his desk. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.200 The phone rang. He picked it up. 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.600 It was General Smith of the US sent calm and 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.320 he said, blah blah. You know I wanted that. And 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:40.800 when I spoke to Dennis, I said, where were you 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.080 when you got the call? He's like, oh, jeez, I 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.240 can't remember it. And I'm like, oh, Dennis, you must remember. 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.040 This is a big thing. An Australian picked up. I 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:47.880 got down of my bait. Edis is like, you've got 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.120 to remember in this moment, there were that many phone 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.240 calls and that many pieces of intelligence. I honestly, I 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.040 know I got a call about it, but I just 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:57.680 can't tell you. Was I in my car, was I 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.760 at home? Was I at my desk? I was just 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.480 like desperate, Like God, You've got to remember, because when 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.600 you're trying to make order of a whole sea of 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.440 facts that you've got if you've got an idea about 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.280 how to structure something, it's like you're in the middle 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.200 of the ocean holding onto a piece of driftwood, waiting 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.840 for rescue, and then basically the driftwood gets taken away 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.520 from you, and then you're just back in the ocean, 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.680 floating around hopelessly. But the reality is, because Dennis Richardson 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.879 couldn't remember that, I could not make that up and 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:29.240 just go, oh, well, I'll just say he was at 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:29.640 his desk. 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:30.600 You can't do that. 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.000 So I had to completely abandon that idea and find 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.080 a different way of opening that chapter. And that's both 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:43.200 the joy of nonfiction versus fiction, or journalism versus fiction. 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.159 It imposes a structure because you can only work with 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:48.399 the facts that you've got. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:49.440 But then that. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.920 Obviously can be kind of crippling because you can only 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.240 work with the facts that you've got. 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.280 Journalism is littered with examples of people who decided not 0:17:58.400 --> 0:17:59.919 to let the facts get in the way of it. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.800 Good story. Yes, that idea, you know, I can see 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.600 the beguiling thing about it. You know, what you're saying 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:10.639 is absolutely true, But funnily enough, a story and telling 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:13.160 a good story is an agenda in and of itself. 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.760 It's not a good point part of some political agenda, 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.400 but it is a kind of predetermined outcome that you're 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:19.359 working towards. 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:20.600 That's so true. 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.320 It's a form of bias, actually, really, and it's a 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.800 bias that's inherent to journalism a way that this manifests. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:30.680 And I think it's something I've been thinking a lot 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.119 about because I think it actually is contributing to mental 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:38.320 health issues. Journalism seizes on the aberration. That's the nature 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.000 of the news. The nature of the news is one 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.320 hundred helicopters fly safely today. The one that crashes is 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.960 the one that makes the news. It's important that we 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.320 investigate and report that because, like a coroner, what you're 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.879 checking is is there a reason that helicopter crash That 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.480 could mean there are going to be more helicopter crashes. 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:01.119 There's faulty pilot training, there's at that's coming out that 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.960 there's more helicopters that have it. So it is important 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.080 to have a look at that aberration. But the end 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.480 result of that, if you overemphasize it, is it makes 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.679 people fearful of something that don't really need to be 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.720 fearful of. Because it's not a representation of the real world. 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.800 So the reality is, when you see things on the news, 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.040 what you need to say to yourself to avoid becoming 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.399 anxious is what i'm seeing here is the least likely 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.000 thing to happen to me. That's the very reason it's 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.280 made the news, because it is the least likely thing 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:30.840 to happen. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.720 I am curious again, and I thought it a lot 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:37.919 reading this book, about the way in which we're beguiled 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.639 by stories and turning things into stories, and the conventions 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:45.479