Speaker 1: Doctor Adam Freezer. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2: It's very good to be here, mister Taylor. Actually, the
Speaker 2: last time I heard your name, I was in the
Speaker 2: Melbourne Conis Club and this announcement comes over and says,
Speaker 2: if Paul Taylor is in the lounge, could he please
Speaker 2: proceed to his flight. It's fully boarded and awaiting his arrival.
Speaker 2: And I stood up, going where is he? And I
Speaker 2: watch you just casually stroll out of the lounge, not
Speaker 2: a care in the world. I would have been sprinting that.
Speaker 1: You were like, yeah, man, you know you kind of
Speaker 1: wait till they call you name.
Speaker 3: Bro, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you another story actually on that there was
Speaker 1: a mere to mine who was over from the UK
Speaker 1: for a while here, and we were driving to the
Speaker 1: airport and I was last minute dot com as you show, right,
Speaker 1: and we're still five minutes away from Melbourne Airport and
Speaker 1: it's half an hour before the flight, and Jesus is like,
Speaker 1: what are you doing to we just we just need
Speaker 1: to turn and go home, and I'm like, we're bye.
Speaker 3: So I pulled in. Luckily enough, I went into the
Speaker 3: valley parking, right.
Speaker 4: Straight up the stairs, straight through security.
Speaker 1: And just walked onto the flight before they actually called
Speaker 1: Arnim that time.
Speaker 4: He couldn't believe it because in the UK, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 4: tis you an R to get through security in the UK?
Speaker 1: Right, it's horrendous, But my listeners will not be surprised
Speaker 1: by that story. Thanks for throwing me under the bus,
Speaker 1: your bastard, So ma for the listeners. And you are
Speaker 1: you're a fellow speaker actually, so you have your PhD.
Speaker 1: I'm about to get my PhD, so I'm just about
Speaker 1: to submit it.
Speaker 4: But you've been you know, we're.
Speaker 1: Both professional speakers. You met on the speaking circuit. You've
Speaker 1: been doing it a bit longer than me. I've got
Speaker 1: one best selling book, you've got four best selling books.
Speaker 1: I've done a little bit of TV. You've done a
Speaker 1: lot of TV, right, So you're kind of a little
Speaker 1: bit like my big brother in the speaking circuit.
Speaker 4: But and actually one of those people.
Speaker 1: Who helps other speakers out right and talks to them about, hey,
Speaker 1: is there anything that I can do to help? And
Speaker 1: you know, we chat about content and those sorts of
Speaker 1: things rather than the speakers who are you know very
Speaker 1: much like hold on to all their own stuff for
Speaker 1: steal your stuff for those sorts of people pride and
Speaker 1: one thing.
Speaker 2: Where I win saw you at the Happiness in Its
Speaker 2: Causes conference a while ago, and you only had like
Speaker 2: twenty minutes and you came out and slayed like you
Speaker 2: were the best session of the day. And we have
Speaker 2: very very different styles. But at one point you were
Speaker 2: talking about like a lot of similar stuff to what
Speaker 2: I talk about in terms of, you know, the content
Speaker 2: and the focus, but it was just it was so different,
Speaker 2: like the average person wouldn't have picked it up, but
Speaker 2: it was just like there are some rule we have
Speaker 2: some really good parallels in some of the work that
Speaker 2: we do, and very similar beliefs, you know, and certainly
Speaker 2: our attitude towards research and science is very aligned.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Look, tell us I tell the listeners about your PhD, right,
Speaker 1: because it's in a pretty interesting area that then has
Speaker 1: sort of spawned what you talk about to Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I my undergraduate was biomedical science, which is
Speaker 2: a blend of psychology and physiology. And one thing I
Speaker 2: was trying to work out I was going to do
Speaker 2: and I was going to go down the psychology path,
Speaker 2: and then they told me how many hours of counseling
Speaker 2: I had to do. And I was like, oh, screw that.
Speaker 2: I'm not sitting in a room listening to people's problems
Speaker 2: for that long. So I went down the sort of
Speaker 2: research arm and my PhD looked at and this is
Speaker 2: far out. Oh god, I kin't of remember. This is
Speaker 2: early two thousands, how our lifestyle factors affected a group
Speaker 2: of unhealthy middle aged men. But we measured from quality
Speaker 2: of life, happiness, cellular function, insolent sensitivity, you know, like strength,
Speaker 2: all this stuff. So what we were looking at is
Speaker 2: just if we change someone's lifestyle, what gets better? So
Speaker 2: that was and the whole thing is we were looking
Speaker 2: at both resistance training and aerobic training, as well as nutrition.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the HD was kind of ahead of its time,
Speaker 2: like not through any design but just through luck and
Speaker 2: if and what we showed is a dramatic increase in
Speaker 2: happiness through exercise. But it was like the first study
Speaker 2: to show that. And if I had a had that,
Speaker 2: if I had had the foresight, like I'd be world
Speaker 2: famous today if because other people sort of picked that
Speaker 2: up and ran with it, but I just I didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't recognize it at the time. But yeah, it
Speaker 2: was a good PhD. I'm in it put me in
Speaker 2: therapy and I kind of had a breakdown after it,
Speaker 2: but other than that, it was fine. Yeah, have you
Speaker 2: scheduled yours?
Speaker 4: You got kids, you.
Speaker 2: Don't have time for that.
Speaker 1: No, No, exactly, that's right, that's right. I'm hopefully going
Speaker 1: to submit at the end of the week.
Speaker 2: Actually, that's a massive achievement, Like, congratulations, the fact that
Speaker 2: you rundlessness, you're doing all that, you're raising kids, you're
Speaker 2: swearing at people on stage like you're amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Man, there's one thing submitted and there's another one getting
Speaker 1: it actually approved by the external examiner.
Speaker 3: So let's just watched this.
Speaker 1: But actually, interestingly, it's in a very similar area to yours.
Speaker 1: It's it's a psychophysiological approach to cognitive fitness, which is
Speaker 1: kind of performance on depression.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, I mean I want to talk to you
Speaker 2: about your PhD, but you just supposed to ask the
Speaker 2: questions the other way.
Speaker 1: But yeah, look, I'm sure we I'm sure we will
Speaker 1: back and forth. And word is really I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: your PhD spawneded, but were there any other moments along
Speaker 1: the way, just from you being a speaker that that
Speaker 1: really brought home that strong interaction between physiology and psychology, right.
Speaker 1: I think we're both big believers in this two way
Speaker 1: interaction between physiology and psychology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and probably people listening to this won't realize how
Speaker 2: separate those two worlds were up till recently. And you know,
Speaker 2: podcasts like yours and researchers like you really understand that.
Speaker 2: But for many years, particularly when I went through my undergraduate,
Speaker 2: we treated those two things as totally separate and they
Speaker 2: never really affected each other. But I mean, it is
Speaker 2: so critical and and so much of the just the
Speaker 2: basic physiology around sleep around you know, fatigue management, recovery,
Speaker 2: all those things, you just can't get away from them
Speaker 2: because they're just the absolute bedrock that everything else is
Speaker 2: built on. Like you talk about ability to handle pressure,
Speaker 2: capacity to think about leaders My gosh, that's a tough job.
Speaker 2: And just having that really strong base of physiology that
Speaker 2: allows you to respond in a constructive, healthy way is
Speaker 2: so critical. And I look at you know, one of
Speaker 2: the pieces of work that we both do that's very
Speaker 2: similar is the stuff around act or psychological flexibility, and
Speaker 2: that requires huge levels of self awareness and cognition, and
Speaker 2: you just can't do that if you're not in a
Speaker 2: good physical space. So yeah, those two worlds I see
Speaker 2: are just so so linked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I mean we talk, we currently talk about
Speaker 1: the fundamentals, like if you want to be a sustainable
Speaker 1: peak performer, and I think that's the key word, right,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of business.
Speaker 3: Leaders out there who are.
Speaker 1: Peak performers, but they're headed towards Bonotte pretty quickly. And
Speaker 1: you have seen them and I've seen them. But if
Speaker 1: you want to be sustainable, you've got to get your
Speaker 1: foundations right of exercise, of sleep, of good nutrition, hydration,
Speaker 1: you're all.
Speaker 4: That recovery stuff.
Speaker 1: Because if you don't have that basis, how can can
Speaker 1: you expect your brilland to work well in a sustainable
Speaker 1: manner without it's just imploding.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I mean, you asked me before as
Speaker 2: a speaker, do you see things? I was in Broken
Speaker 2: Hill doing some work out there, and there was a
Speaker 2: leader like stuff had really hit the fan, and there
Speaker 2: was a leader who had to take on so much
Speaker 2: and she was just out of a mind. Even trying
Speaker 2: to have a conversation with her. She was just all
Speaker 2: over the place. And I never kind of pull people
Speaker 2: aside and go, oh, I want to give you some advice,
Speaker 2: like you don't want to be that guy. But I
Speaker 2: said to her, Hey, after this session, I need to
Speaker 2: have a serious talk to you. And I just went, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm really worried about you because I just don't think
Speaker 2: you can keep this up. And here's what I'm seeing.
Speaker 2: And she was kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: know what you're saying, but I just got to get
Speaker 2: through this period. And then you know what I found
Speaker 2: is she had a complete breakdown and end up in hospital,
Speaker 2: like she just imploded one day, and yeah, it was
Speaker 2: you could see it coming them all away. So that
Speaker 2: basic stuff around recovery and all those habits that we
Speaker 2: know we should have are just truly foundational.
Speaker 4: So let's talk about practical stuff, right.
Speaker 1: So before we even get to that recovery and all
Speaker 1: those foundations, it's really about when someone goes home from
Speaker 1: work that's shifting over.
Speaker 4: And you've written a brilliant, award winning.
Speaker 1: Book called the Third Space, so it's a concept that's
Speaker 1: resonated with pretty much everybody who's read it. Explain to
Speaker 1: us what the third space is, and you know how
Speaker 1: you came up with it and why you think it's
Speaker 1: critical for sustainable peak performance. And just and actually for
Speaker 1: most people just to be surviving in today's world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and really it kind of as most of the
Speaker 2: stuff I come up with, I came up with a
Speaker 2: by accident. So we were doing a lot of work
Speaker 2: with the military. When I was at university, we had
Speaker 2: only one of a few climate chambers, so we could
Speaker 2: do some stuff with the military where it's forty degrees,
Speaker 2: it's one hundred percent humidity, they've got to run on
Speaker 2: a treadmill like. So the military loved us, and I
Speaker 2: was just hanging out with these people and chatting. And
Speaker 2: I had a couple of mates that were in the ESAs,
Speaker 2: and one thing I would ask them is what's the
Speaker 2: hardest part about being a soldier or you know, in
Speaker 2: special forces? And all of them said coming home is
Speaker 2: the hardest part. And just what they talked about is how,
Speaker 2: you know, for the first two weeks they'd just fight
Speaker 2: with their family before they were kind of acclimatized. And
Speaker 2: it just really made me think about that transition. And then,
Speaker 2: you know, I had an interaction with a CEO who
Speaker 2: talked about how he literally built a new entrance into
Speaker 2: his home so he would go into his room, shower,
Speaker 2: get changed and then go down and see the family.
Speaker 2: And then I spoke to an expert in high performance
Speaker 2: tennis players and he talked about the transition between points
Speaker 2: being the most important. So what just kept coming up
Speaker 2: is how we move from one thing to the next
Speaker 2: is vitally important, like the physiology we bring, the mindset
Speaker 2: we bring, and I just kept seeing it everywhere. So
Speaker 2: for people listening to this kind of the first space
Speaker 2: is what you're doing now, second space what you're about
Speaker 2: to do, and the third space is that transitional gap.
Speaker 2: And what we just look at is, well, is that
Speaker 2: gap critical? And what we found with high performers is
Speaker 2: it's vital. So what we do in that gap to
Speaker 2: leave what we've just done behind, but most importantly get
Speaker 2: our mindset right for what we're about to go into.
Speaker 2: So whether it's one meeting to the next or you know,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you do it. Like before I walk on stage,
Speaker 2: I need that third space to get my head in
Speaker 2: the game and to get really focused. So I have
Speaker 2: a process that I go through. But even like I'm
Speaker 2: talking to you now, which is awesome and fun, and
Speaker 2: I don't get to see you very often, so it's
Speaker 2: really good. But in a minute. I've got to go
Speaker 2: home to two teenage tortoise. Man. That is not fun
Speaker 2: and not enjoyable, and I'm in the trenches man. Oh
Speaker 2: so I've got to go home and I've got to
Speaker 2: be empathetic and I've got to be caring and they're
Speaker 2: probably going to be giving me a bit of attitude.
Speaker 2: So it's almost like I've got to prepare myself for
Speaker 2: that next environment. So that's what this concept of the
Speaker 2: third space is about. And whether it's the most popular application,
Speaker 2: is that transition from work to home, whether we're working
Speaker 2: at our desk, spare room, commuting, just how do we
Speaker 2: shift gears between the work mentality and the home mentality
Speaker 2: and too often we bring the day home with this
Speaker 2: and it's been a bad day and we take it
Speaker 2: out on the people that we live with. So yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what that concept looks at. Whether it's a transition
Speaker 2: between a meeting or you know, it's a big transition
Speaker 2: like a different environment. That's that's what the concepts are.
Speaker 1: And then I has COVID shifted that right and that
Speaker 1: increase working from home because you can see how there
Speaker 1: would be there would be one number one a clear
Speaker 1: stimulus when you're coming home. That's kind of like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is a reminder. Now I'm shifting in and you're
Speaker 1: going from one environment to the other, Like how is
Speaker 1: that different from walking out from the home office into
Speaker 1: the living room, And often the home office is a
Speaker 1: corner of the living room.
Speaker 2: I got more emails about this concept during COVID than
Speaker 2: I ever have, and what people just sent me emails going, man,
Speaker 2: I've had to apply this concept because when I mean,
Speaker 2: we did a lot of research during COVID, and the
Speaker 2: thing we is people said I missed my commute. Like
Speaker 2: no one said I missed the physicality of it, like
Speaker 2: I miss sitting in traffic, or I don't miss being
Speaker 2: pressed up against a sweaty guy in a train. But
Speaker 2: what I miss is was like a punctuation mark. It
Speaker 2: was a symbol of you know, I'm moving between two
Speaker 2: different worlds. But now that so many people work in
Speaker 2: the home, what we found is when we work from home,
Speaker 2: we work longer, longer, It is far far harder to
Speaker 2: turn off. And what happens is we tend to work
Speaker 2: into our personal time, either physically or mentally, like we're
Speaker 2: still in that mode. So what people said, like, even
Speaker 2: one guy just went oh, during COVID, I would get
Speaker 2: I would get dressed for work. I would get in
Speaker 2: the car, I'd go to a coffee shop, get the coffee,
Speaker 2: drive back home, and when I walked in the house,
Speaker 2: I went, right, I'm at work. At the end of
Speaker 2: the day, I would leave, like I put on gym
Speaker 2: gear and I'd go to a local park and walk
Speaker 2: around the park. And then when I came home, it's like, right,
Speaker 2: I'm a mom, I'm a dad, I'm a partner parent, whatever.
Speaker 2: And even one guy, an executive I know from a bank,
Speaker 2: he rang me and said, oh, man, you wouldn't believe it.
Speaker 2: We tried that, you know, homeschooling, and he said that
Speaker 2: was some sort of cruel and unusual punishment. It was
Speaker 2: just chaos. We're yelling at the kids, they're yelling at us.
Speaker 2: And he said, I reminded me of that concept, and
Speaker 2: he said the next week, I literally got dressed for work,
Speaker 2: made the kids put their school uniforms on, and we
Speaker 2: walked around the block, came in the house and it's like, kids,
Speaker 2: you're at school, do your lessons? Where at work? And
Speaker 2: then at the end of the day, they would get
Speaker 2: dressed out of their clothes and just go for a
Speaker 2: little walk, then come back in and we're a family.
Speaker 2: And he just talked about even just drawing those marks
Speaker 2: in the day did so much to help our behavior
Speaker 2: in our mindset. So yeah, COVID really that's led to
Speaker 2: a resurgence of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like to at the end of the working day,
Speaker 1: if I'm working from home, or if I've been out
Speaker 1: and I come back in, the first thing I do
Speaker 1: is I get changed into my exercise gear because for.
Speaker 4: Me two reasons.
Speaker 1: Number one, it's a it's a shift from work to
Speaker 1: home environment, but it also is a subconscious trigger to
Speaker 1: move more. Right, because lots of people come home and
Speaker 1: they get into their bloody pajamas and full line. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the prime the priming is sit on your arse and
Speaker 1: grab a bottle of wine. Right, So, what are one
Speaker 1: or two things that that people can do to make
Speaker 1: that transition better. I mean, you you've talked about a
Speaker 1: few things that some people might go, Fuck, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna go out and go round the block.
Speaker 4: But whatever.
Speaker 1: But what are a couple of simple techniques that people
Speaker 1: can actually use to harness this third space so that
Speaker 1: they're not bringing work into their person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look what we found is a good
Speaker 2: transition from work to home. Have three elements to it,
Speaker 2: so reflect, rest, reset. So the reflect piece is just
Speaker 2: shut the day down, so just reflect on it. But
Speaker 2: also if you can reflect on the good parts of
Speaker 2: the day. So how I do it is as I
Speaker 2: start to walk to my car to drive home, I'll
Speaker 2: think about the day, had a couple of great meetings.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm going to reflect on the conversation with you.
Speaker 2: What could I have done better? What was good about it?
Speaker 2: So just kind of shut the day down, but in
Speaker 2: a constructive not oh that was shit and screwed that up.
Speaker 2: So then the next phase is rest, which is just
Speaker 2: do anything that focuses your mind on one thing. So
Speaker 2: you could do deep breathing, you could do listen to
Speaker 2: a podcast, like I'm gonna I've only got a short drive,
Speaker 2: so I'll just crank some music and you know, just
Speaker 2: enjoy the music as I drive home. So that's rest,
Speaker 2: and then re set is literally you're going to almost
Speaker 2: visualize like you're an athlete. So when I walked through
Speaker 2: that door, what kind of husband do I want to be?
Speaker 2: What kind of dad do I want to be. So
Speaker 2: if I'm met with attitude from my daughters, how do
Speaker 2: I be compassionate? Or how do I be playful and
Speaker 2: sort of diffuse it with humor. It's thinking about well,
Speaker 2: what do I want to achieve in that environment? So
Speaker 2: that reflectress reset is the perfect transition. But the whole
Speaker 2: thing about this concept is super portable. Like we were
Speaker 2: working with paramedics. Man, have you ever done any work
Speaker 2: with them?
Speaker 4: I am yeah.
Speaker 1: I actually did some basic paramedic training when I was
Speaker 1: doing helicopter search and rescue, so we had to be
Speaker 1: and in my role, we were semi triann paramedic and
Speaker 1: we had the span.
Speaker 3: We did four weeks training.
Speaker 1: And part of that was being in the guys with
Speaker 1: the ambulance drivers, a tough kid.
Speaker 2: What we did is we taught them this strategy, but
Speaker 2: we weren't arrogant enough to go and here's how you're
Speaker 2: going to implement it. We just taught them the principles
Speaker 2: and then we said, all right, in a couple of months,
Speaker 2: we're going to come back to you, and what we
Speaker 2: need is how have you used at what worked, what
Speaker 2: didn't work? And there's a rural group who got together
Speaker 2: after the presentation. And one thing they talked about is
Speaker 2: they will go home after a shift. They're still in
Speaker 2: their clothes and they might be running late and they've
Speaker 2: got to take a kid to footy training. And they're
Speaker 2: standing on the sideline at footy training in their paramedics
Speaker 2: outfit and people come up and go, oh, what happened
Speaker 2: with that accident the other day or what's going on
Speaker 2: and they're still talking about work. And they came up
Speaker 2: with a campaign called get out of the Green. Now
Speaker 2: their uniform's green. And they said there's two steps. It's
Speaker 2: kind of like what you do. You leave your boots
Speaker 2: at the door, like the boots don't come in, and
Speaker 2: the first thing you do is go to your room
Speaker 2: and you peel that day off, like you take off
Speaker 2: the identity. And they said it's a symbolistic thing, but
Speaker 2: it's also a mindset shift. So you can really do
Speaker 2: you can really do anything that works for you. I mean,
Speaker 2: people listening to this take it, play around with it.
Speaker 2: Like one things my wife and I will do is
Speaker 2: go for a walk and then when we come back,
Speaker 2: that's like parenting time, you know, time with the kids.
Speaker 2: But even like as I go to home, one of
Speaker 2: the things I focus on and it might sound negative,
Speaker 2: but it works really well is when I walk in
Speaker 2: the door, I just think how many more years have
Speaker 2: I got with my girls, like teen and twelve, and
Speaker 2: it has flowing and I just go, Man, don't be
Speaker 2: a douchebag, like just enjoy it for even the crappy parts.
Speaker 2: Still just get into it, be present, really try and
Speaker 2: make the most of it because it's going to go
Speaker 2: within a blink of an eye. So really you can
Speaker 2: just use any think that fits into that that gets
Speaker 2: a better outcome.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I love the idea of reflect, rest, and reset
Speaker 1: and people can can play within those things and that
Speaker 1: you know, you then talked about transitioning and visualizing who
Speaker 1: you want to be.
Speaker 4: So let's talk about Kevin.
Speaker 2: Oh, Kevin. Yeah. So I mean where this came from
Speaker 2: is both you and I are fans of ACT therapy
Speaker 2: or some people refer to it as psychological flexibility, But basically,
Speaker 2: I mean Steve Hayes, a researcher from the US, kind
Speaker 2: of came up with this different view of how we
Speaker 2: manage our thoughts and emotions, and away from that, I
Speaker 2: have to attack and get rid of my negative thoughts
Speaker 2: and emotions too. Well, they're just information that comes into me. Like,
Speaker 2: they're not me. I don't have to follow them, they're
Speaker 2: not commands. They're just how I perceive the world. And
Speaker 2: rather than I have to stop them or get rid
Speaker 2: of them, how do I accept them? But you know,
Speaker 2: do the action that's going to improve my life or
Speaker 2: live a line to my values or achieve this goal
Speaker 2: that I'm after. So what I found, and I'll get
Speaker 2: your opinion on this too, is trying to explain act
Speaker 2: to people when there's six components to act and one
Speaker 2: of them is self as concept and you say that
Speaker 2: to someone, they go, what the hell does that mean?
Speaker 2: So what I've really struggled with is how do I
Speaker 2: teach people this new science. And I was doing a
Speaker 2: piece of research looking at courage and we interviewed a
Speaker 2: circus troop who performed without safety gear. And first question
Speaker 2: I asked them is do you have negative thoughts when
Speaker 2: you walk out on stage? And all of them said,
Speaker 2: of course, we do, Like there is never a performance
Speaker 2: where you're complete confident. You're always worried about something going wrong.
Speaker 2: And I said, well, how do you manage those negative thoughts?
Speaker 2: And the head of the troop Catherine, she goes, do
Speaker 2: you mean Kevin? And I'm like, I don't know who
Speaker 2: Kevin is, but like, how do you manage your negative thoughts?
Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, that's Kevin. I'm like, who the
Speaker 2: hell's Kevin? And what they had done is created a
Speaker 2: character in their head called Kevin. Because what they worked
Speaker 2: out without any psychology, just with experience and common sense,
Speaker 2: is they said, man, we've been trying to get rid
Speaker 2: of that voice our whole life and it's just not
Speaker 2: going away. So how do we manage that voice? How
Speaker 2: do we kind of make peace with that voice? And
Speaker 2: what they picture is that we have a part of
Speaker 2: our brain that tries to put us off for tries
Speaker 2: to bring us undone, and that's Kevin, and that Kevin's
Speaker 2: like a radio in the background. We don't really pay
Speaker 2: him a lot of attention. He's there, but he doesn't
Speaker 2: get to run the show. And so what they had
Speaker 2: and what they would do is they'd have a little
Speaker 2: huddle before they went out and they'd say to each
Speaker 2: other house keV and you might go, Kevin's under control,
Speaker 2: got him on a tight leash, but I might go
Speaker 2: far out in how we put that new catch in.
Speaker 2: All day, Kevin's just been saying I'm going to drop
Speaker 2: someone tonight. So they go, all right, let's manage Kevin.
Speaker 2: And I walked away from it going that is such
Speaker 2: a beautiful way to represent. And you call it the gremlin,
Speaker 2: but we h's part of our brain that goes, you're
Speaker 2: not good enough, you suck, you're a terrible parent. You know,
Speaker 2: why would everyone book you as a speaker? You don't
Speaker 2: know what you're doing. And rather than going oh, I
Speaker 2: shouldn't say that to myself, it's like, well, that's Kevin.
Speaker 2: Kevin's a bit of a douche. But I don't let
Speaker 2: Kevin run the show. And it's almost like a blazinus
Speaker 2: or an indifference of yeah, yeah, that's Kevin. And you know,
Speaker 2: I have taught this to a few people, and I
Speaker 2: taught it to some senior partners in a professional services
Speaker 2: firm and they came back for the second workshop and
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, we bloody love Kevin. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: what do you mean? And they said, man, we've been
Speaker 2: talking about door month. Like before a big pitch, we
Speaker 2: will say to each other, what's your Kevin saying? And
Speaker 2: they'll go, oh, far out Kevin's saying that if the
Speaker 2: client asked this question, I'm going to screw it up.
Speaker 2: And what they were talking about is just you know,
Speaker 2: they made a lot of jokes, but they said, it's
Speaker 2: actually made us vulnerable, and it's made vulnerability okay, because
Speaker 2: it's a character. It's not us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the cool.
Speaker 2: Thing, isn't it. And I mean you had some pretty
Speaker 2: big egos in that room and them starting to be
Speaker 2: vulnerable where they just they would say to each other
Speaker 2: far out, man, Kevin's kicking my ass right now, and
Speaker 2: they would talk about it. So, yeah, that's what Kevin's about.
Speaker 2: How do we manage that voice?
Speaker 1: And it's interesting, isn't it, Because when you get a
Speaker 1: bit little bit deeper into the psychology that Kevin, you know,
Speaker 1: the genesis of Kevin is from your early years and
Speaker 1: that those life experiences and sometimes the stuff that Kevin
Speaker 1: says served.
Speaker 4: You well in the past but is no longer serving
Speaker 4: you well. Right.
Speaker 1: That's the key thing is to work out when when
Speaker 1: did Kevin stop being helpful for me or what specific
Speaker 1: situation would Kevin be helpful for me?
Speaker 2: And that's the key is not go, oh, Kevin's a douchebag,
Speaker 2: just go, well, what's Kevin trying to tell me here?
Speaker 2: Or you know what I found with people that really
Speaker 2: use that, they get to the point where they go, yeah,
Speaker 2: when I screw up, Kevin says this, like there's a
Speaker 2: patterner of behavior to Kevin. Kevin hates uncertainty, Kevin hates
Speaker 2: when you know, I'm vulnerable, I'm putting myself out there.
Speaker 2: So it's almost like they recognize these patterns and they go,
Speaker 2: I know what Kevin's going to say before even says it.
Speaker 2: So it's just kind of this this but you don't
Speaker 2: want to seem as a bad thing because sometimes what
Speaker 2: Kevin says to us is because someone's mean to us
Speaker 2: when we're five, or because our dad freaking yelled at
Speaker 2: us and scared the hell out of us. Like he
Speaker 2: comes from all different like there's all different things that
Speaker 2: cause him and he's not a he's not a bad
Speaker 2: part of us, but he tends to lead us astray
Speaker 2: or into dysfunctional behaviors.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think the key is not
Speaker 1: to get in a bloody argument with Kevin, right, and
Speaker 1: I think this is no that's right, and this is
Speaker 1: a bit of a difference I find between CBT and ACT.
Speaker 1: And you know, with CBT and the abcdes the active
Speaker 1: eating event, the belief system, the consequences and end.
Speaker 4: The d is the disputation right right, war.
Speaker 3: Is the evidence for this? Well, often Kevin will go.
Speaker 4: Well, fuck it, hell, I'll give you evidence.
Speaker 1: You're ship because of this, this, this, and this right
Speaker 1: and look at you, you're facts right.
Speaker 4: So for me, it's it's not it's not is Kevin
Speaker 4: raider as he wrot?
Speaker 1: Is Kevin helpful right now in this situation with the
Speaker 1: outcome that I'm after?
Speaker 2: And and that's the key thing is people say to me,
Speaker 2: are Kevin's bad or Kevin's that negative voice? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: not necessarily because it could be a positive voice. So
Speaker 2: I've I've lost two good mates to suicide throughout my
Speaker 2: life and it is just one of the shittiest, Like
Speaker 2: it is so fricking horrible. There is just nothing good
Speaker 2: that anyway. So, and each of those friends had had
Speaker 2: stuff that had happened to them and they never talked
Speaker 2: about it and they kept it inside and it basically
Speaker 2: just blew up and literally killed them. And you know,
Speaker 2: Kevin can be in those situations particularly if men, if
Speaker 2: they're struggling with their mental health, Kevin will come in
Speaker 2: and go Now you'll be all right. You just push through,
Speaker 2: you know, and you're tough, you can handle this. So
Speaker 2: it's actually a positive voice, but it's leading you to dysfunction.
Speaker 2: So it's not whether the voice is positive or negative.
Speaker 2: It's does the voice improve your situation, like you just said,
Speaker 2: or does it make it worse? And that's the piece
Speaker 2: about Kevin is he tries to lead you away from
Speaker 2: what's important to you or what would be a good move.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, very cool. I like that.
Speaker 1: And look, the first step in this whole psychological flexibility game,
Speaker 1: because that's what we're talking about, it is kind of
Speaker 1: that self awareness, right and being a war of the
Speaker 1: voice in your head. Now, then when you recognize Kevin,
Speaker 1: you realize Kevin's not helpful. Give us one or two
Speaker 1: things that people can then do so that they can
Speaker 1: get in a better frame of mind and achieve a
Speaker 1: better outcome.
Speaker 2: You will what we I mean when I teach this,
Speaker 2: I talk about a four step process. So whenever we
Speaker 2: come up against challenge. So this doesn't mean you have
Speaker 2: to monitor Kevin twenty four to seven all the time,
Speaker 2: like you go insane, But it's when you come up
Speaker 2: against challenge can you be self aware? And the self
Speaker 2: awareness is what is Kevin saying to me, Like what's
Speaker 2: a story he's telling me? And what are the emotions
Speaker 2: that come with that? So that's the first piece and
Speaker 2: I'll give you I'll give you an example at the end.
Speaker 2: The second part is the acceptance, and it's exactly what
Speaker 2: you said of I'm not getting into an argument with Kevin.
Speaker 2: I just accept that's what Kevin says in that situation,
Speaker 2: and it could be due to ten thousand things, and
Speaker 2: I'm not going to sit with a therapist to try
Speaker 2: and work it out. I don't know what drives it,
Speaker 2: but I just accept that in this situation, this is
Speaker 2: what Kevin says, and that acceptance moves you out of
Speaker 2: I'll have an internal fight in my head, and it
Speaker 2: moves you towards well what action can I take? And
Speaker 2: then the third step is about focus on the development
Speaker 2: that will come out of it. So if I stand
Speaker 2: up to this challenge, if I take this on, how
Speaker 2: will I grow and evolve? How will my life be better?
Speaker 2: How will this help me be aligned to my values?
Speaker 2: And then the last step is can I engage in
Speaker 2: towards behaviors? So we call it the safe model self awareness, acceptance,
Speaker 2: focus on evolution, and the last part is engage in
Speaker 2: towards behaviors. And towards behaviors are just those behaviors that
Speaker 2: are going to get a better outcome, that are constructive,
Speaker 2: that will improve. So if I think about my fifteen
Speaker 2: year old at the moment, oh my gosh, she's given
Speaker 2: me so much attitude. And I grew up in a
Speaker 2: house like my dad was a Scottish motor mechanic. He
Speaker 2: was he barely talked. We were terrified of him, right,
Speaker 2: so we had we had respect for our parents and
Speaker 2: we would never ever dream of talking back to our parents. Right,
Speaker 2: That's how I grew up. So my fifteen year old,
Speaker 2: she's given me heaps of attitude, so that when she's
Speaker 2: mean to me, my self awareness is the story I
Speaker 2: come up with, or Kevin comes up with, she shouldn't
Speaker 2: talk to you like that. That's a disgrace. You do
Speaker 2: so much for her. She doesn't appreciate you, appreciate you.
Speaker 2: What a horrible child she is, right, that's what Kevin say.
Speaker 2: And the acceptance piece is I don't know why, but
Speaker 2: that's my reaction, and it's a fairly reasonable reaction. So
Speaker 2: I don't get into, oh, I'm a terrible pair and
Speaker 2: I shouldn't say that about my kid now, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: she was rude to me. Of course I'm going to
Speaker 2: have all these reactions. The focus on development is I
Speaker 2: can either go into battle with her or I could
Speaker 2: be mean to her. But you know, my value is
Speaker 2: I want to stay really connected to my kids and
Speaker 2: I want to be the person they come back to
Speaker 2: and that they can rely on. And in that moment,
Speaker 2: I go, what is what's the most constructive behavior I
Speaker 2: can do? And literally the other day she was having
Speaker 2: a meltdown, and when she was having a meltdown, she
Speaker 2: was being mean to me, and I could tell she
Speaker 2: was struggling. Kevin's telling me all this stuff and all ideas.
Speaker 2: Just walked up and gave her a hug.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I gave her a hug.
Speaker 2: And you know when someone like literally falls into you,
Speaker 2: like she was just so stressed and overwhelmed. She just
Speaker 2: needed that. And so it was almost like I don't
Speaker 2: even when it comes to my parenting in particular, I
Speaker 2: don't even pay attention to Kevin, I'm like, I know
Speaker 2: the behaviors that will get an outcome, so you know,
Speaker 2: I use that model to engage with her. Yeah, there's
Speaker 2: there's an example in a full step process.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Matte that that is very cool, and I.
Speaker 2: Will I will give you a.
Speaker 3: Little bit of hope for the future.
Speaker 1: My daughter, who has been long been a master of
Speaker 1: the art of pushing my buttons, has has not gone
Speaker 1: to university and has come home the last couple of
Speaker 1: weekends and it's been just blissed, absolute cares. Not eighteen,
Speaker 1: just about to turn nineteen, and she's at UNI, and
Speaker 1: she went traveling for eight weeks throughout Asia and that
Speaker 1: had a big impact on her, but also just the
Speaker 1: fact that she's not UNI and it's different. And then
Speaker 1: she came home and all that was for the weekend
Speaker 1: was just laughter and conversation and asking our advice and
Speaker 1: all of those sorts of things.
Speaker 4: So there's there's hope.
Speaker 3: There's hope, man.
Speaker 2: And the problem is what I've worked out is girls
Speaker 2: are so much my of than boys. So my mates
Speaker 2: have boys and they come over. They're just dumb animals
Speaker 2: that walk around the house. Right, They've got no idea
Speaker 2: what's going on in the world. The girls just run
Speaker 2: rings around them. They're so smart. Yeah, that doesn't change much.
Speaker 3: No, no, exactly.
Speaker 4: So let's let's talk about You've worked with a wide.
Speaker 1: Range of people from special forces guys to elite athletes,
Speaker 1: to business people and just normal humans with with your
Speaker 1: the workshops that you do.
Speaker 3: That's a good question.
Speaker 4: Who are the boost interesting?
Speaker 1: And now after that question, what have you learnt from
Speaker 1: your interactions with elite levels of the military and elite
Speaker 1: levels of athletes that we can all use that normal
Speaker 1: people can use to improve their own lives.
Speaker 2: Okay, so when I which question first.
Speaker 4: It's more centristing.
Speaker 2: I just I look at single parents and I go,
Speaker 2: how the hell do you do that?
Speaker 3: Do you do that?
Speaker 2: Seriously? I My wife kind of got hit by like
Speaker 2: a chronic fatigue thing. She got COVID and then she
Speaker 2: got influenzer A and she had this long viral thing
Speaker 2: just and she's wiped out, like she's in bed. So
Speaker 2: I'm doing it.
Speaker 1: That's hard, that's hard, ship, Yeah, real proper sick.
Speaker 2: But that means I'm doing everything. I'm traveling like I
Speaker 2: do all the food and the planning and the cooking
Speaker 2: like you know we have sort of separate jobs, but
Speaker 2: I was doing everything, running the kids around, and after
Speaker 2: a week, I just went, first of all, we're never
Speaker 2: getting divorced because I'm not doing this crap on my
Speaker 2: own right. And number two, I just went, I thought
Speaker 2: of some of my friends who were single mums, and
Speaker 2: I just go, that's freaking Brazil, Like that's And I
Speaker 2: think one of the problems we do is is we
Speaker 2: look at these elite people, and you know, elite athletes
Speaker 2: are amazing, but they're weird in that they're just so disciplined,
Speaker 2: like I don't know if it's it's it's I don't
Speaker 2: know if you can relate to them. And I don't
Speaker 2: know about you, but some of those Special Forces, I mean,
Speaker 2: you were in Special Forces, weren't.
Speaker 4: You, Like, no, no, no, I was.
Speaker 1: I did combat tourvival, resistance to interrogation training, but and
Speaker 1: interactive with special Forces, but I was military could yeah right,
Speaker 1: Well I.
Speaker 2: Had a mate in the SAS and those guys are
Speaker 2: just like they exist on a whole other level. You know,
Speaker 2: Olympians are fascinating, but they're just a big step above
Speaker 2: I think in terms of overall impressiveness that those soldiers
Speaker 2: are just freaks. But it's kind of like the average
Speaker 2: person that just blows me away. You know, the dad
Speaker 2: that works freaking three jobs and you know, puts his
Speaker 2: family first, or as we're talking about before, the single
Speaker 2: mom who's you know, doing everything. Those people are just extraordinary.
Speaker 2: I just think those people that you know, do the
Speaker 2: grind day in and day out are quite amazing.
Speaker 4: So he just reminded me of a little story.
Speaker 1: Quite quite recently, I went back to Ireland and actually
Speaker 1: caught up with a bunch of friends and caught up
Speaker 1: with a me to mine who I had been at
Speaker 1: school with, and I knew you had kids. We'd sort
Speaker 1: of kept captain touch on Facebook and caught up with
Speaker 1: each other and I was asking about his kids and
Speaker 1: he said he has two non veribal artistic children and
Speaker 1: I'm l dude, gee, And then he was telling me
Speaker 1: about just the dearly issues that are going on and
Speaker 1: I'm just like, my.
Speaker 4: God, how do you too, How do you and.
Speaker 1: Your wife actually just get through a day, a single
Speaker 1: day rather than like this is every day?
Speaker 4: And yeah, so I agree with.
Speaker 2: You with like one thing that really struck me when
Speaker 2: I was twenty one, I kind of realized I'd grown
Speaker 2: up in the Partridge family, and I thought, oh man,
Speaker 2: I've got to experience the world a little bit more.
Speaker 2: And I one of the things I decided to do
Speaker 2: was volunteer as a companion for Camp Quality. Right, so
Speaker 2: Camp Qualities kids who have cancer. You take them away
Speaker 2: for a week long camp twice a year, and as
Speaker 2: a companion, you get a camper to look after and
Speaker 2: you stay with that camper. And over those years I
Speaker 2: lost two boys, both ate when they one from a
Speaker 2: brain tumor and one from actually not from cancer, but
Speaker 2: just from an infection you got in hospital, and man,
Speaker 2: you sit with those parents and you know, it's like
Speaker 2: talking God, I'm the freaking happy guest Todayana, I'm talking
Speaker 2: about suicide. I'm talking about this. But you sit with
Speaker 2: that parent and like one of them said, I will
Speaker 2: never smile again, Like I'm just I'm crush And I
Speaker 2: was like, right on, sister, I freaking I believe you,
Speaker 2: and I can understand why you feel that way. But
Speaker 2: then you see me a year later and they're they're
Speaker 2: laughing and they're they've moved, Like you never get over that, obviously,
Speaker 2: But I think what I've learned, what the average person
Speaker 2: shows me is I don't think we lack resilience like
Speaker 2: everyone talks about we lack resilience. I think we're amazing.
Speaker 2: Like your mate with the two kids that aren't verbal,
Speaker 2: Like that guy's a freaking hero. You know, the parents
Speaker 2: that lose children and one if they stay together, that's
Speaker 2: a bloody miracle and to you know, go on to
Speaker 2: raise fantastic children who become great adults. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: kind of you know, we we love the sexy high performers,
Speaker 2: but I just think, you know, some of these people
Speaker 2: that just have really hard situations are quite extraordinary. Maybe
Speaker 2: we don't pay them enough cudos or study them nearly enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think you're absolutely right. Actually, one thing,
Speaker 1: just talking about losing kids.
Speaker 4: And when I am.
Speaker 1: Just before my open heart surgery, you know what that
Speaker 1: does is it brings into sharp focus and your your
Speaker 1: own mortality, right, And I use the Stoic principle of
Speaker 1: you know, meditating on your own death.
Speaker 4: And I've always been a big fan of I'm not
Speaker 4: always but for the.
Speaker 1: Last number of years that stoic concept of memento maury
Speaker 1: and member that you are mortal, but just having something
Speaker 1: like open heart surgery where you know there's a significant
Speaker 1: risk really makes you think about it. And in the end,
Speaker 1: I started doing the stoic and meditating on your desk,
Speaker 1: not from a point of being morose, but just to
Speaker 1: reflect on your life and particularly all the good stuff
Speaker 1: in your in your life. And and Nyn actually thought,
Speaker 1: you know what if this does go to ratchet, the
Speaker 1: big silver lining and you know, the stuff that will
Speaker 1: help me to die with a little smile on my
Speaker 1: face is that if I go early, I will have
Speaker 1: achieved my major ambition in life, which is not to
Speaker 1: bury one of my children, because I've seen a couple
Speaker 1: of friends who've lost kids and just what it's done
Speaker 1: and to think about that and the impact.
Speaker 4: So I think you're right.
Speaker 1: The people who can get on with life after that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff and have those everyday big challenges like
Speaker 1: the single momb like the single dad, like the people
Speaker 1: with autistic children, and you know, to an extreme non
Speaker 1: verbal like like, there is incredible human resilience and resolve.
Speaker 1: I think when we have to, when there's no other way,
Speaker 1: And I think there's so many people who do not
Speaker 1: realize their capacity because they've never been there. And if
Speaker 1: they were forced to be there and to sit in
Speaker 1: that shiitthole at discomfort, they would find incredible resilience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think our problem is we
Speaker 2: often are wait, like we wait till we are forced
Speaker 2: into it, like where we yes, we're correct resilience, but
Speaker 2: what we suck at is that proactive action that we
Speaker 2: should take before the pain hits. So yeah, I think
Speaker 2: where the average person lacks is that sort of discipline
Speaker 2: or fortitude to to you know, get in front of
Speaker 2: the bad event and start to change their lives for
Speaker 2: the better without some sort of push into it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, ad Met, I love that for you, is get
Speaker 1: in front of the bad event. And so you know,
Speaker 1: we're I was thinking about the elite athletes, the special
Speaker 1: forces guys. For me, the one thing that we could
Speaker 1: all tick from them is their incredible consistency. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's a bit fucking dull, right, discipline consistency, But I mean,
Speaker 1: because how many people listening have gone on a diet
Speaker 1: for a while or a fitness drive for a while
Speaker 1: and felt frigging amazing and then for some reason they stop.
Speaker 4: So let's let's talk about.
Speaker 1: Behavior change in general, and what are some things that
Speaker 1: you think that people can do to get in front
Speaker 1: of that bad event. And as you I'm just throwing
Speaker 1: this question at you, so as you're thinking about the answer,
Speaker 1: for me and this is this is probably I think
Speaker 1: part of the answer you're going to give. But for me,
Speaker 1: tapping into one of my core values is authenticity. And
Speaker 1: authenticity is that is the thing that stops me drinking
Speaker 1: the way that I want to drink, being an irishman
Speaker 1: and ex military, right, And I realized that there's no
Speaker 1: way that I would be being authentic if I'd be
Speaker 1: coming home at night and going fucking hell, it's a
Speaker 1: hard day and drinking half a bottler a bottle of wine.
Speaker 1: And it's that authenticity that makes me get up early
Speaker 1: and do the workouts because I know I have to
Speaker 1: stand up in front of people and talk about stuff
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be in authentic, right, Yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Don't want to be the so with the leaky taps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, exactly, that's the thing I don't want
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 3: Somebody. Man.
Speaker 4: I see so many.
Speaker 1: Freaking doctors who are just in horrendous ship and I said,
Speaker 1: you know, it just pops into my head. Physician he
Speaker 1: likes hels right because they're not they're not authentic. So
Speaker 1: for me, it's linking to that that value that resonates,
Speaker 1: which I think a little bit of way of conversation.
Speaker 1: But what are the some of the things that you
Speaker 1: think having talked to so many people about behavior change,
Speaker 1: what can they do or think.
Speaker 4: About to get in front of the bata van?
Speaker 2: So what I when it comes to behavior change? I
Speaker 2: use Jonathan Hyatt's elephant model. So what he talks about
Speaker 2: is he's a professor from the US and he says,
Speaker 2: when you think about change, think about a writer on
Speaker 2: top of an elephant and they're looking along the path.
Speaker 2: So the rider represents what's the exact behavior you have
Speaker 2: to do? So does the rider know where they're going?
Speaker 2: And I and one of the I mean, this sounds
Speaker 2: so dumb, but one of the biggest breakthroughs in behavior
Speaker 2: change is articulate what are the behaviors you have to do?
Speaker 2: Because when most people set goals, they'll go, oh, my
Speaker 2: goal is to lose five kilos. Well, the problem with that,
Speaker 2: that's an outcome, that's great, but what are the behaviors
Speaker 2: to get you there? We talk about, oh, let's drive
Speaker 2: innovation through our organizations. Okay, innovation is not a behavior
Speaker 2: like that's that's a big concept. What are the behaviors
Speaker 2: that will get you to innovation? So one of the
Speaker 2: problems is we're too vague and we go, oh, I
Speaker 2: should you know, handle my stress, or I should meditate
Speaker 2: or I should you know. We don't go all right,
Speaker 2: here's what's going to happen, you know, five days week,
Speaker 2: I'm going to meditate at this time in this location,
Speaker 2: and here's the app I have on my phone to
Speaker 2: do it. Right, we don't get specific enough, and particularly
Speaker 2: working with leaders, they say things like, oh, yeah, I'll
Speaker 2: just I've got to empower my team. I'm like, awesome,
Speaker 2: what does that actually mean? Like empower them? How with what?
Speaker 2: Oh we're going to collaborate? Great? What the behaviors? And
Speaker 2: people don't go deep enough into the behavior. So Number one,
Speaker 2: you've got to make it really clear for the rider
Speaker 2: where is it going now? The elephant represents the emotional
Speaker 2: response to the change, and what you're trying to do
Speaker 2: is get the elephant on sides because if you look
Speaker 2: at that model, the elephant's the most powerful part. The
Speaker 2: rider can pull as hard as he wants. If the
Speaker 2: elephant doesn't want to go. It ain't going. And this
Speaker 2: is where I try and get emotion on board with me.
Speaker 2: So emotion drives behavior. What we're trying to do is
Speaker 2: get emotion on board and make it appealing to do
Speaker 2: the behavior. So if it is, you know, some form
Speaker 2: of exercise, you know, exercising with a friend makes it
Speaker 2: more enjoyable. Like I like to walk, but I'll listen
Speaker 2: to podcasts while I walk, and I love like I
Speaker 2: love the walk because I'm learning at the same time,
Speaker 2: So that the elephant is just how do I get
Speaker 2: emotion on board? And then the last part is the path.
Speaker 2: And the path represents the context, the environment in which
Speaker 2: I'm trying to change, and does the environment make it
Speaker 2: easy to do that behavior or does it make it hard?
Speaker 2: And this is the one people forget the most, and
Speaker 2: just setting up the environment. Like you talk about drinking.
Speaker 2: I love alcohol, like I can't drink a lot, Like
Speaker 2: if I have four drinks, like I'm just destroyed. But
Speaker 2: I really like it. And I gave up for a
Speaker 2: while and I got in the habit of where I
Speaker 2: was just having maybe one glass every day, and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh man, I've got to cut that out.
Speaker 2: And what I've been trying to do is not have alcohol.
Speaker 2: But what I realized the only way is if there's
Speaker 2: none in the house.
Speaker 4: Now, no none in the hot because if it's it's.
Speaker 2: In the cupboard, I will Rah Kevin will say you
Speaker 2: deserve a glass of wine. You've worked very ex.
Speaker 1: And or you open the cupboard looking for something else
Speaker 1: and you see the alcohol and it hijacks your brain exactly.
Speaker 2: It's like, I know what I need, and so what
Speaker 2: I've realized is I just can't have it in the house.
Speaker 2: So one of the things I did is just set
Speaker 2: up my environment was really hard to get alcohol. So
Speaker 2: they're the three things, the rider, the elephant, and the path,
Speaker 2: and I just make sure I'm trying to tick off
Speaker 2: as many of those as possible to obtain that behavior change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it, and and yeah, I've got a
Speaker 1: little saying that process beats goals.
Speaker 4: Every day of the week, totally right.
Speaker 1: So many people are just thinking about their goals and
Speaker 1: how great it will feel, but don't put enough emphasis
Speaker 1: on the process and behaviors. I mean, you'll have seen it, right,
Speaker 1: I see it all the time. You go into corporates
Speaker 1: and they have this vision statement or mission statement, and
Speaker 1: then they have all their values and I'm like, if
Speaker 1: those values aren't behaviorally based, what do they really mean?
Speaker 1: Like how can you hold yourself to account and hold
Speaker 1: other people to account if they're not translated into concrete behaviors?
Speaker 2: And also how many times behavior? How many times have
Speaker 2: you spoken to and when? What are your values? And
Speaker 2: they don't know.
Speaker 1: I do that ac conferences all the time. Right, stand up?
Speaker 1: Who can tell me the purpose of this organization?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: And stand up? You can tell me the values?
Speaker 1: And it's like it's just people doing this exercise and
Speaker 1: they slap themselves on the back and think that that
Speaker 1: that's it. It's done, and the purpose and values very
Speaker 1: will come.
Speaker 4: Along and take us there.
Speaker 2: Comment earlier though, the consistency is everything? Mmm? Like everything?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. For me.
Speaker 1: The biggest word that people should be focusing on is
Speaker 1: that consistency.
Speaker 4: And they find out that when they're consistent, shit actually
Speaker 4: changes over time.
Speaker 1: Right, So let's talk about what you do, right, Because
Speaker 1: you're as busy as get out, and you know, you're
Speaker 1: running a business, You've got a team, you're doing research,
Speaker 1: you're doing lots of talks, you're writing books, you're raising kids,
Speaker 1: You're all over the frigging place.
Speaker 4: What is this stuff that you do to enable you
Speaker 4: to be a sustainable peak performer? Like, what are.
Speaker 1: Your non negotiables around those kind of fundamentals that we
Speaker 1: talked about earlier on.
Speaker 4: Well physically and psychological Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean physically, well, actually both physically and psychologically, because
Speaker 2: if I don't do it, I'm a psychological mess. They
Speaker 2: exercise is non negotiable. So I do the gym six
Speaker 2: times a week, and I will swim three times a week,
Speaker 2: like two in the pool, one in the ocean. For me,
Speaker 2: being in nature is a really big important thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: and we could go into the research about the impact
Speaker 2: of nature on the brain, but you know, getting in
Speaker 2: the ocean, being at the beach, that really helps me. Nutrition.
Speaker 2: You know, I've always been really solid on nothing, just
Speaker 2: heaps of fiber, you know the stuff you talk about,
Speaker 2: heaps of protein, heaps of fiber. Try and live as
Speaker 2: clean as I can. Meditation is a big piece for
Speaker 2: me that daily just being able to calm my nervous
Speaker 2: them calmed down is a critical component for me, so
Speaker 2: they're kind and my sleep stuff, you know, make sure
Speaker 2: I'm in bed by ten, you know, no screens an
Speaker 2: hour before, you know, those simple kind of things. But
Speaker 2: it's the nutrition, sleep and exercise of the big things
Speaker 2: for me nature as well. But something I've I've introduced
Speaker 2: over the last maybe five years is hobbies. So being
Speaker 2: as busy as we are, I found I had family
Speaker 2: because I was really committed to them. Fitness and health
Speaker 2: and work, like I only had three things. And what
Speaker 2: I started to do was introduce hobbies. So I used
Speaker 2: to sing years ago in a band when I was
Speaker 2: in my twenties to meet girls. That was the only reason,
Speaker 2: and I just went screw, I'm going back to singing.
Speaker 2: So I've got a singing teacher and every day I
Speaker 2: practice singing, and it's it's just good for my soul.
Speaker 2: The other thing is I'm really into cars, Like I
Speaker 2: bloody love cars. And I bought a car that you
Speaker 2: can take to the racetrack. So once a month I
Speaker 2: go to the racetrack. I go to Easton Creek and
Speaker 2: just drive around there as fast as humanly possible, and
Speaker 2: I hang out with a bunch of guys and we
Speaker 2: talk about tie pressure and suspension and yeah, because I
Speaker 2: live with three women, like even my dog's a girl, right,
Speaker 2: And so my whole life is Taylor Swift hair products,
Speaker 2: face products and pulling ridiculous amounts of hair out of drains,
Speaker 2: like I have pulled the frickin' animal out of there,
Speaker 2: I swear to God. So once a month, I'm just
Speaker 2: with a bunch of dudes. We're just talking about cars,
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's just the best thing. And what I
Speaker 2: found is those hobbies have given back to me so much,
Speaker 2: so it's almost like to not burn out, I had
Speaker 2: to do additional things rather than take things away. But yeah,
Speaker 2: that's kind of what I do. And you know, I
Speaker 2: have a really wonderful wife. She's just the best. So
Speaker 2: that side of my life's really cool. But yeah, that's
Speaker 2: me and just you know, hang out with friends and
Speaker 2: try to be social.
Speaker 1: Yeah awesome, And and I love the hobbies. But that
Speaker 1: what the Japanese referred to as that ikey guy. You
Speaker 1: just so, ekey guy is completely misrepresented in the West. Right,
Speaker 1: So when we get off this podcast, google Echi guy
Speaker 1: and click on images and you will see this thing,
Speaker 1: this van diagram come up and what you love, what
Speaker 1: the world needs, right right, I'm.
Speaker 2: Talking about that the other day, no, no, and.
Speaker 4: And everybody thinks that's what ikey guy is.
Speaker 1: But my wife has studied Japanese psychology and she's going,
Speaker 1: that's bullshit. This was just some guy and he's written
Speaker 1: a blog post right where that original velin diagram was
Speaker 1: about your purpose in life, and he had read something
Speaker 1: on Nicky Guy and he just took a guy and substituted.
Speaker 3: It, and it just his blog went all over the place.
Speaker 1: And I everybody talks about that vein diagram when it
Speaker 1: comes to inky Guy. But I had Professor Ken Mogi
Speaker 1: on my podcast, who's obviously a Japanese professor and has
Speaker 1: written a book on Nicky Guy, and he said that
Speaker 1: it's nothing to do with that. Ikey Guy is this
Speaker 1: concept about It's basically a hobby that you are really
Speaker 1: passionate about where time just kind of disappears and you
Speaker 1: do it for the love of doing it, not for
Speaker 1: a particular outcome.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: So Kate Ken's said he's got lots of vicky guys.
Speaker 1: In one of his is getting up in the morning.
Speaker 1: I can't remember whether it's a tea or coffe and
Speaker 1: he makes it. You know, we're fully present, like the
Speaker 1: Japanese do. And then he sits down with a piece
Speaker 1: of chocolate and he drinks his tea or his coffee
Speaker 1: and he just saavers the moments.
Speaker 2: Right, and.
Speaker 1: It's such a cool cut. But lots of them, it's
Speaker 1: like growing their own vegetables. Is a nicky guy, and
Speaker 1: they have lots of different ikey guys. And and really
Speaker 1: interesting you were talking about hobbies, because I've always had
Speaker 1: hobbies that were.
Speaker 4: Generally a bit active. You know.
Speaker 1: I had boxing, but yeah, getting punched into the field.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: And then you know, I played soccer for many years.
Speaker 1: And it was actually when when we moved here, Carl
Speaker 1: he said you need to go back and play soccer
Speaker 1: because she realized that I needed that outlet and I
Speaker 1: needed that that hobby. And and then not now that
Speaker 1: I'm a bit too old for soccer, I was playing
Speaker 1: a bit of golf but don't have the time for it.
Speaker 4: And and no, I'm just one of my little iky guys.
Speaker 4: Is tea.
Speaker 1: Get my dogs out for a walk in the morning
Speaker 1: in nature, and I love to go out just before sunrise,
Speaker 1: so it's.
Speaker 4: Dark when we're out and.
Speaker 1: Hit yeah, and just hearing the birds and for me,
Speaker 1: you know, one of my biggest sticky guys cooker burrs.
Speaker 4: When I hear cooker burrs, I.
Speaker 1: Just stop and I just have this big shit eating
Speaker 1: grin on my face. And often when we go out
Speaker 1: for the walk, and in fact I did it this
Speaker 1: morning and there was the cooker burrs going, and it's
Speaker 1: just that little walk in nature and seeing my dogs,
Speaker 1: you know, being so happy off the lead, really with
Speaker 1: their tails wagging, and it's that little moment to joy.
Speaker 1: Because I started doing it, I was putting my headphones
Speaker 1: in and then I thought, hold on a minute, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't be listening to a podcast or listening to this
Speaker 1: because I'm not being completely present.
Speaker 3: And then when I when I took that out.
Speaker 1: And then was just listening and looking, I found that
Speaker 1: that really grounds me in the morning, makes the dogs happy,
Speaker 1: it makes me happy.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. It's such good advice, isn't it, Because there's
Speaker 2: something everyone can do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just that's the thing It does doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be time consuming. It's just some little thing
Speaker 1: that you just love for actually doing. It can be
Speaker 1: doing bloody sudoku, it can be singing, it can be whatever.
Speaker 1: But I think it's so important because there's so many
Speaker 1: people will.
Speaker 4: Just resonate with you.
Speaker 1: Right, I have work, I have my fitness, and I
Speaker 1: have my family.
Speaker 4: But that's it, right, and we.
Speaker 1: All need that little achy guy which actually recharges us
Speaker 1: rather than recovery. When you talk about recovery, a lot
Speaker 1: of people think it's sitting with your feet up with
Speaker 1: a bottle.
Speaker 3: Of wine watching Netflix.
Speaker 1: It's not real, real recovery, right, that's relaxation, which is very,
Speaker 1: very different.
Speaker 3: So we do need to wrap up here.
Speaker 1: I just want to talk about what are you excited
Speaker 1: about in the future. What are you working on from
Speaker 1: a research perspective that's interesting, new book or whatever. What's
Speaker 1: floating your bault at dominic?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just did. We did one of the world's
Speaker 2: biggest studies on secondary trauma and its impact on educators.
Speaker 2: Far out the cheering, this just keeps coming, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: I'm just delivering. But like on a serious note, what
Speaker 2: we're seeing is more and more children are presenting trauma
Speaker 2: at school and educators having to deal with that, and
Speaker 2: we have less and less services. So they've basically got
Speaker 2: a kid that's gone through trauma and they're having to
Speaker 2: manage them and teach them and support them, and there's
Speaker 2: very little research done on that worldwide. So we just
Speaker 2: did one of the biggest studies in the world on that,
Speaker 2: and oh my gosh, the results are just staggering about
Speaker 2: how prevalent it is, the impact on them, and most importantly,
Speaker 2: we're looking at, well, what are the solution to that problem?
Speaker 2: So that's a really big something that's really juicing me
Speaker 2: at the moment. I feel very passionate about it, and
Speaker 2: I think, you know, you talk about meeting and purpose.
Speaker 2: It doesn't get much bigger than that. Writing the Kevin book. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's kind of That's where we're at at the moment.
Speaker 2: That's my main focus right now.
Speaker 3: Very cool, Very cool.
Speaker 4: So where can where can people.
Speaker 3: Go to find your books?
Speaker 4: You got four of them.
Speaker 1: So work working, I go to buy every single one
Speaker 1: of them. Where can people follow you to find out more?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Well, just my website, which is doctor Adam Fraser dot com.
Speaker 2: Is in dr Adam Fraser dot com. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: I'm on all the socials and do all those things.
Speaker 2: So yeah, just probably the website's the best place to go.
Speaker 3: M brilliant.
Speaker 1: Okay, we will send people there and get onto it.
Speaker 1: People because Adam is an absolute wealth of knowledge and
Speaker 1: a true p academic in the sense of the word,
Speaker 1: someone who takes all that academic research and turns it
Speaker 1: into actionable, understandable things.
Speaker 4: I think that's your superpower and my developing superpower. So
Speaker 4: thank you for your time.