Speaker 1: He's boorish, his pompous, he's arrogant, he's unself aware, he's
Speaker 1: a bully, he's incredibly stupid. He has no sense of
Speaker 1: idnity apart from his own status as a royal. I mean,
Speaker 1: even until literally last Thursday, he couldn't understand what the
Speaker 1: foss was about. He had no sense of remorse. He's
Speaker 1: a narcissist.
Speaker 2: But by the time a wide eyed Andrew mount Batten
Speaker 2: Windsor was slumped in the back of a range Rover,
Speaker 2: the reality had hit home.
Speaker 1: I think it did hit him finally on Thursday, just
Speaker 1: the seriousness of the situation He's in. Breaking news on
Speaker 1: the former Prince Andrew.
Speaker 3: Thames Valley Police say that Andrew mount Batten Windsor has
Speaker 3: been arrested.
Speaker 4: The BBC understands that he has been arrested on suspicion
Speaker 4: of misconduct in public office.
Speaker 2: Now, as the world reels from Andrew's arrest and the
Speaker 2: Royals scrambled to protect themselves from one of the biggest
Speaker 2: crises the Palace has ever faced, a warning from a
Speaker 2: Royal biographer Charles could go down to learn about Andrew
Speaker 2: and that.
Speaker 3: With this new headline email proves Charles was warned about
Speaker 3: Andrew's secret deals. It's now not inconceivable that the king
Speaker 3: may fall.
Speaker 4: Your majesty, how are you feeling off your brother's arrest?
Speaker 2: Have you spoken to your brother? Your majesty. I'm Nicole
Speaker 2: Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today Royal historian
Speaker 2: Andrew Lowney on what's next for the former prince and
Speaker 2: could the king be forced to abdicate the throne. It's Tuesday,
Speaker 2: February twenty four, Andrew. It's a few days since the
Speaker 2: UK and the world was rocked by the arrest of
Speaker 2: Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has the shock worn off for you
Speaker 2: and for the country? And how is the mood in
Speaker 2: the UK now? Because I imagine that it's all anybody's
Speaker 2: talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I mean I think it's not shock. I
Speaker 1: mean I think in some ways people wanted this to happen,
Speaker 1: and they're relieved it's happened. Shows that there's not one
Speaker 1: law for the royals and ones for others. There are
Speaker 1: just absolutely transfixed by the new revelations. I mean today,
Speaker 1: the revelations that the king was aware about the problems
Speaker 1: with Andrew, going back to twenty nineteen and seems to
Speaker 1: ignore them. So the wagons, though they've circled and try
Speaker 1: and protect the King. He's now being drawn into the story.
Speaker 4: Let me stay clearly, the King has said the law
Speaker 4: must take its course as this process continues. It would
Speaker 4: not be right for me to comment further on this matter.
Speaker 4: An extraordinary statement from the king.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of stuff, for example, about how
Speaker 1: his police protection officers were actually in effect working for Epstein.
Speaker 1: There were bouncers on the door in Manhattan. So the
Speaker 1: new disclosures almost every day, the raw family on the
Speaker 1: back foot. They've lost control of narrative, and it's actually
Speaker 1: really serious. I mean, we have a possibility that Charles
Speaker 1: will have to abdicate, I think if he's found and
Speaker 1: being complicit in protecting his brother. This is a story
Speaker 1: about financial corruption at the heart of the royal family,
Speaker 1: abetted by the Queen. I was vilified when I said
Speaker 1: that the Queen was involved in protecting her son. Now
Speaker 1: they're kind of throwing her to the walls. She's dead
Speaker 1: and she's been blamed for not dealing with the problem
Speaker 1: while she was alive. The cause for a parliamentary inquiry
Speaker 1: an MP today has said that Andrew's committed treason, it's
Speaker 1: really bad news.
Speaker 2: I have to say, what makes you think though, that
Speaker 2: it could actually lead to the abdication of King Charles,
Speaker 2: because that seems as though it would put it on
Speaker 2: an entirely new level.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean, they're trying to protect Charles. They
Speaker 1: trying to keep the damage a limitation just to Andrew.
Speaker 1: But if the facts show that the Palace knew about this,
Speaker 1: Charles knew about it and didn't had protected someone who
Speaker 1: consorted with pedophiles, slept with underage girls, was taking bribes,
Speaker 1: was giving away secret information, including not just commercially sensitive information,
Speaker 1: but military and political secrets, and he was protected by
Speaker 1: the king. People are not going to accept that. They're
Speaker 1: going to say he goes as well. And we're getting
Speaker 1: close to that stage. You know, people feel William as
Speaker 1: hands seemed to be clean, and there's a sense that,
Speaker 1: you know, the old God have let everyone down. The
Speaker 1: monarchy only depends on trust, and that trust has gone.
Speaker 2: A lot of this, of course Andrew denies. But you
Speaker 2: wrote about the relationship between Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein in
Speaker 2: your book. Could you tell us what they both got
Speaker 2: out of it? Who was more powerful? And what was
Speaker 2: Andrew even thinking when he continued that friendship even after
Speaker 2: Epstein had been convicted of sex trafficking.
Speaker 1: Well, it was just I described as between a rattlesnake
Speaker 1: and a mouse. Epstein at Andrew live. Andrew gave Epstein
Speaker 1: credibility QDOS, access to the royal family, a respectability. And
Speaker 1: Andrew got from Epstein a ready supply of young girls,
Speaker 1: someone to pay Fergie's bills, and again some useful contacts.
Speaker 1: All those relationships are transactional. He was making sure that
Speaker 1: Fergie's debts could be paid or restructured, and Epstein helped him.
Speaker 2: I'm at your service, Just marry me. This is just
Speaker 2: one of the ex changes that Sky News believes that
Speaker 2: Sarah Fergson had with a disgraced pedophile, Jeffrey Epstein. And
Speaker 2: just briefly, this doesn't reflect well on Fergie either, does it.
Speaker 1: No? I mean she's abstually finished. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: there she is supporting children's charities, sex trafficked woman, writing
Speaker 1: children's books, and she's busy consulting with a pedophile, bringing
Speaker 1: her kids to meet him, introducing her godchild twenties to Epstein,
Speaker 1: saying that Epstein's like the brother she never had. She
Speaker 1: wants to marry him, she wants to work for him,
Speaker 1: pleading for money. Twenty thousand pounds here, one hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars there. She comes across as a complete grifter,
Speaker 1: which is what I knew. But you know the reputation
Speaker 1: she had, I think, particularly in Australia, she was this
Speaker 1: ditchy sloane ranger, a bit foolish, but actually at heart
Speaker 1: and pretty nice person. And actually she's now seen as
Speaker 1: a very cynical hypocrite who manipulated the royal family, played
Speaker 1: with her staff, has now abandoned the husband that she
Speaker 1: claimed to stand by. Now he's no longer a prince,
Speaker 1: and in Royal Lodge, you know, you suddenly realize this
Speaker 1: is the world of Thackeray's Vanity Fair. It's understood that
Speaker 1: the government will consider introducing legislation to remove Andrew Mountbatten
Speaker 1: Winsor from the line of succession.
Speaker 2: So for now, Andrew's still eight in line for the throne.
Speaker 2: And as you told us, there are these reports that
Speaker 2: the government is considering introducing legislation to remove him from
Speaker 2: that royal line of succession. Do you think that is likely,
Speaker 2: and is it also the right thing to do well.
Speaker 1: I mean there's stories that there is an attempt to
Speaker 1: introduce the legislation. I mean Edward the eighth was actually
Speaker 1: able to abdicate an afternoon. That's because he agreed to go.
Speaker 1: So if Andrew agreed to go, there would be no
Speaker 1: need for parliamentary debate. He would that things could just
Speaker 1: be sorted. What the royal family doesn't want is a
Speaker 1: big debate about royal accountability and privilege. They want to
Speaker 1: shut this story down. I personally think that getting rid
Speaker 1: of him from the last session is a waste of
Speaker 1: parliamentary time. It's an irrelevance. He's never going to take
Speaker 1: the throne. He's never going to be a Councilor of state.
Speaker 1: Keep focusing on two things, accountability of the royal family
Speaker 1: and getting justice for the victims by holding Andrew to
Speaker 1: account for what he's done.
Speaker 2: Coming up, is this the monarchy's me too moment? Andrew,
Speaker 2: the King and Prince William. They've been praised for how
Speaker 2: they've handled it so far. They're continuing with their public duties,
Speaker 2: though they have been getting some blowback from it. It
Speaker 2: seems there is a real sense of keep calm and
Speaker 2: carry on. But how much damage is this doing to
Speaker 2: the royal family and its future even though they are
Speaker 2: trying to somehow insulate themselves from it.
Speaker 1: Well, huge damage. I think there was a poll the
Speaker 1: other day saying that seventy nine percent of people in
Speaker 1: the twenties are basically think the monarchy should go.
Speaker 2: The monarchy, Well, it's not having a very good time
Speaker 2: at the moment, is it.
Speaker 4: Young people are interested in the values of fairness and
Speaker 4: in the values of representation. Whatever way you slice it.
Speaker 4: The monarchy is neither a fair nor a representative institution.
Speaker 1: Approval rates to the monarchy in general have fallen. I
Speaker 1: don't think that the feeling is that the king has
Speaker 1: handled the well, he's lost to control of the narrative.
Speaker 1: He's running to catch up. William is better. People feel
Speaker 1: that he has wanted to deal with this but been
Speaker 1: frustrated by his father's reluctance to really address the subject.
Speaker 2: Now, it's pretty well known that Andrew was the late
Speaker 2: Queen's favorite child, and she did a lot to protect him,
Speaker 2: even paying a reported twelve million pounds settlement in the
Speaker 2: civil case with Virginia Dufrey. Why did she have such
Speaker 2: a soft spot for him, and did she do too
Speaker 2: much in the end to the extent that it's obviously
Speaker 2: ended up with the royal family now in total crisis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well she passed this BOMD to Charles. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think to a certain extent he has to take
Speaker 1: responsibility too, because he was in effect reigning with her
Speaker 1: for the last few years of her life. He's been
Speaker 1: on the throne in the last four years. But yeah,
Speaker 1: she was blind to his faults. She didn't want to know,
Speaker 1: put a head in the sand. No one felt that
Speaker 1: they could really address this problem, and so he's able
Speaker 1: to get away with it. He would run to Mommy
Speaker 1: complaining about people, and instead of her giving him a
Speaker 1: hard time, she would give the person giving Andrew a
Speaker 1: hard time a hard time. But the Royal family could
Speaker 1: have dealt with this for years. I mean they've known
Speaker 1: about his behavior. I had lunch yesterday with someone who
Speaker 1: knew as a teenager and was telling me about exactly
Speaker 1: this sort of behavior. And Charles or Edward's screaming at him,
Speaker 1: know about, you know, behaving properly and not behaving in
Speaker 1: the way he was. So this isn't going to be
Speaker 1: new to them. But I think where they've been caught
Speaker 1: out is they didn't expect this Epstein dump of material.
Speaker 1: They thought they got away with it, and to a
Speaker 1: logic scent they had. I mean, even my book coming
Speaker 1: out in August didn't lead to calls for investigations or
Speaker 1: any real criticism of the Royal family. It's only really
Speaker 1: this last few weeks that it's become really untenable for
Speaker 1: them not to do something. Same with the police, same
Speaker 1: with the government. The government have tried to shut the
Speaker 1: story down. Ambassadors were told not to speak to me.
Speaker 1: The files are still closed till twenty sixty five. Everyone
Speaker 1: has tried to suppress this story. I saw when I
Speaker 1: did my book on it with the Eighth and his
Speaker 1: associations with the Nazis. They destroyed files, they briefed against
Speaker 1: the press.
Speaker 2: Same thing in your book you quoted a Royal source
Speaker 2: is saying that Charles thought Andrew's trade on void job
Speaker 2: was always a disaster waiting to happen. Now he's been
Speaker 2: arrested with allegedly sharing confidential commercial information with Epstein, and
Speaker 2: as you were telling us, there are other investigations into
Speaker 2: him underway. So could this just be the tip of
Speaker 2: the iceberg.
Speaker 1: Yes, it is just the tip of the iceberg. I
Speaker 1: mean we may well have the sex trafficking allegations lead
Speaker 1: to charges. I mean they're there's a lot of material
Speaker 1: in the Epstein revelations about that. I think they're just
Speaker 1: trying to find the girls to interview them, see they
Speaker 1: will give testimony. There is I mean, I think more
Speaker 1: material on the misconduct and public office, but the sex
Speaker 1: trafficking there. I think eleven police forces looking at various allegations.
Speaker 1: So they have to make sure they get this right.
Speaker 1: But there's a lot riding on it. I think people
Speaker 1: feel that the roles have been protected and that justice
Speaker 1: now needs to be seen to be done.
Speaker 2: Andrew looking forward, despite this huge crisis that's underway at
Speaker 2: the moment and the legitimacy of the monarchy being questioned,
Speaker 2: do you think that the younger batch of royals, William
Speaker 2: and Kate, that they can eventually right the ship again
Speaker 2: or is it going to be pretty tough?
Speaker 1: No? I hope they can. I mean I think they're
Speaker 1: very popular. I mean, the rest of our family are
Speaker 1: very popular. I mean, so it's just these two rogue roles,
Speaker 1: and so they need to cauterize this get Sarah and folks,
Speaker 1: and Andrew kind of distanced from the rolls. But I
Speaker 1: think the one person who's vulnerable this is King Charles.
Speaker 1: If Charles is implicated, then I think he will have
Speaker 1: to be the sacrificial lamb, and there will be the
Speaker 1: sense we clean up the stables, we move to a
Speaker 1: completely new regime, we move to a more transparent monarchy,
Speaker 1: more on the European model, and this is the sort
Speaker 1: of me too moment for the monarchy for change. I
Speaker 1: just don't think it's a tenable for them now to
Speaker 1: operate in the way they used to. Never complain, never explain,
Speaker 1: Hope the problem goes away. Work on some trusted correspondence
Speaker 1: to leak stories. It's just not going to work in
Speaker 1: a less deferential society and with social media pressures.
Speaker 2: Andrew, it's been fascinating to talk to you. Thanks for
Speaker 2: joining us.
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Also in the news this week, the Royal Commissioner looking
Speaker 2: into anti Semitism and social cohesion in the wake of
Speaker 2: the Bondi attack, will visit the scene of the massacre.
Speaker 2: Virginia bell is set to meet with survivors and relatives
Speaker 2: of those who died. I called Judge will give an
Speaker 2: opening statement today outlining how the inquiry will operate and
Speaker 2: humanitarian organizations Save the Children says. The coalition's proposal to
Speaker 2: make it illegal to help the so called ISIS brides
Speaker 2: and their kids returned to Australia is extraordinary. CEO Matt
Speaker 2: Tinkler says no Australian child should be left stranded, calling
Speaker 2: on politicians to dial down the rhetoric and show some
Speaker 2: compassion for vulnerable children. I'm Nicole Johnston. This is seven am.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.