WEBVTT - Albanese v Dutton: The first leaders’ debate 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:08.720 From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am. 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:11.920 Anthony Alberzi won the first leader's debate of the election 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.560 campaign last night, but it was a tight contest, with 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.360 both leaders well prepared and polished as they faced undecided 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.720 voters in Western Sydney, exactly the kind of battleground both 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:24.920 sides will need to win the Form government. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.040 Thanks to the hard work of Australians, including the people 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:33.200 in this room, Inflation is doubt to two point four percent, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.640 wages are up. 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.680 Anthony Alberzi spoke of the country rallying in spite of 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.520 difficult global conditions. For Peter Dutton, it was about painting 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.400 a dire picture of economic pain and blaming Alberanzi for it. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.960 In forty years, there has not been a higher spending 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:50.360 government than your government. 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:50.960 Is that correct? 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:52.720 Well, that's not true, except for the one that you 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:53.479 were a part of. 0:00:54.760 --> 0:01:00.480 And today Special correspondent for the Saturday Paper, Jason Gottus 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.360 on the biggest moments of the first debate and what 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.520 it tells us about the next stage of the campaign. 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:19.120 It's Wednesday, April nine. Jason, thanks for joining us. Who 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.080 had the most to lose from last night's debate. 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.240 Daniel, I think no question Peter Dutton, given the horrible 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:31.240 start he's had to this election campaign, not just the 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.839 first ten days of the campaign, but the four weeks 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.640 leading up to Anthony Albanesi calling the election have not 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.600 gone Peter Dutton's way and so he had a lot 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:43.399 at stake tonight. 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.280 There have been reports that Anthony Alberezi has been preparing 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.000 for the debate by training with Dan Andrews. 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:54.280 Did it show if having the better zingers was a 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:59.040 measure of the training that Anthony Albaneze did with Dan Andrews, 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.160 then I think it did show for well. 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:03.600 The only gas policy that the Coalition have is the 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.480 gas lighting of the Australian public. He disagrees with all. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.680 Of the because Anthony Albanesi did have some better cut 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.320 through lines than did Peter Dutton. 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.640 I noticed that Dutton called Albanzi dishonest a number of 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:19.960 times throughout the debate. 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.480 It's designed to scare people, and I think it's dishonest 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.480 from a man who wants to well be Anthony with respect. 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.200 That's a very dishonest proposition. You could so we know 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.840 there'd be a whole team of people nailing these lines 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.600 of attack behind the scenes. So what did you make 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.880 of that choice, Jason to use that line. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.720 Well, I think that's exactly the sort of thing we 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.440 would expect Peter Dutton to say to Anthony Albanesi, and 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.320 the sort of thing that the PM would say back 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.760 to Peter Dutton. This is I think standard fair in 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.600 political debates that both leaders are going to call the 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.680 other dishonest or imply that they're a liar in some way. 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.960 That's just what we expect, that standard debate trash talking. 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.519 If you like. Is it a case that that's Dutton's 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.640 best line of defense is attack? 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.359 Well, I think he does have to try to undermine 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.440 the Prime Minister any way he can, and attacking his 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:22.160 honesties integrity is probably the easiest way to do that. 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.359 But I do think it's also worth saying that I 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.799 thought this debate was pretty respectful both leaders. They are 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.200 used to dealing with each other. They have quite a 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.840 good relationship across the table in the House of Representatives. 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:39.040 There's not a lot of ill feeling between these two people, 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.400 and I think that showed tonight too. Yes, Peter Dutton 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.200 called Albin Easy dishonest a number of times, but I 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.800 think that's within the bounds of political debate, and it 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:53.400 wasn't as though as though Pedda Dutt as being disrespectful 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.800 to the PM or unjustly accusing him of lying. I 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.800 thought all of the low that Peter Dutton used were 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:02.360 pretty fair. 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.080 Well, let's get into some of the policy. Then, what 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.120 did the debate tell you about where both leaders want 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:11.160 to fight this election? 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.920 Well, I think for the Prime Minister very much Medicare. 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.200 He kept trying to bring the debate back to Medicare. 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.680 He brought out the Medicare card from his pocket, which 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:25.680 we've sent him to a number of times. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.800 And all you need is this little thing here, Prith. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.840 You just need your Medicare card, not your credit card 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:34.600 because labor. 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.360 And I think for Peter Dutton it was very much 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:40.720 about getting his campaign back onto the two key messages 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:42.360 of the cost of living. 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.279 I want to provide support to Australians from the first 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.039 day that we're elected, and that is through a twenty 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.600 five cent a leader cut to fuel both diesel and unleaded. 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:55.120 It'll help families, it'll help businesses, it'll help pegitics. 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:56.039 And also national security. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:57.680 I want to make sure that we can live in 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.960 a safe country. The Prime Minister says that we live 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.760 the most curious period since the end of the Second 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.560 World War, since nineteen forty five, and then takes eighty 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:06.960 billion dollars out of defense. 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.280 Peter Dutton also talked about the housing crosses and what 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.359 he would do to ease that if he was to 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:14.400 become Prime minister. 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.240 A person is coming in every forty four seconds into 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.760 our country and we haven't got the housing to accommodate 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.039 that show them we need to get the sequencing right 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.880 and it's why we're putting five billion dollars into a 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.800 program to create five hundred thousand new homes. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.320 And so Peter Dutton tried to remind people that one 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.760 of his key policies is to let less people into 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.080 the country than the Albanesi government has done over the 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:39.040 last three years. 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:45.480 Both political parties are very similar when it comes to immigration. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:47.480 But there was a moment where it felt like Peter 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.200 Dutton was wrong folded by a man asking about the 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.400 impact of international students. He was worried that the plan 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:56.080 to reduce the numbers would make UNI more expensive for 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:56.520 his son. 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.960 How will those universities pick up the short and will 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.840 will my son's unifees increase? 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.800 What did you make of that moment, Jason Well, I 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.320 thought it was a really interesting question. 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.359 It gave Peter Dutton a moment of pause. You know, 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.760 he didn't quite know how to answer that question. 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.960 The short answer is no, because what we do as 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.640 a government is we provide that funding to universities and 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.120 obviously there's a health scheme where students are paying for 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.320 part of their own education as well. What we've done though, 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.320 is that we've said under the government's. 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:36.960 It was Yeah, it was a really good moment in 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.000 this debate, A really one of those candid moments that 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:41.240 sticks with you. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.800 What Peter Dutton is firmly laying the blame mate and 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.559 is at the feet of international students who he says 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.200 are causing the crisis in housing around Australia. 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.920 I want desperately to make sure that we get an 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:00.000 opportunity for young people to believe in and achieve again 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.760 and the dream of home ownership. They are about forty 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.720 two international students coming into our country for every one 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.440 student accommodation unit that's been approved, and that has had 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.280 a big impact. So it doesn't is. 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.080 This working for him to blame students like that. 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.960 I don't think so, Daniel, because I'm not sure that 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:23.760 international students come to Australia and buy the sorts of 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:29.560 houses that ordinary working families are trying to buy. I 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.320 don't see too many international students living in outer suburban 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.160 areas and in our bigger cities. International students tend to 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.640 cram themselves into small apartments very close to the campuses 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.360 where they're studying. And I just don't get the feeling 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:49.600 that international students are taking houses other Australian residents are 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.400 trying to rent or buy. And I'm not sure that 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:58.840 it's going to work for Peter Dutton in the long term. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.760 Coming up after the break, who was more convincing on 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:10.600 the economy? 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.520 Hi Ruby Jones. Here seven Am tells stories that need 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:18.200 to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and independence, 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.200 and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until the 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.080 election will bring you an extra episode to break down 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.920 the biggest political moments of the week. If you enjoy 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.320 seven Am, the best way you can support us is 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.240 by making a contribution at seven am podcast dot com 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.560 dot are you forward slash support? Thanks for listening and 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:37.440 supporting our work. 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:46.240 My question to Peter is that you have posed every 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.120 cost of living measure that we're put forward over the 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.000 last three years in government. You now are going to 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.360 an election with a nuclear plan that will build seven 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.000 nuclear reactors that will cost six hundred dollars to provide 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.400 four percent of power sometime in the twenty forties. What 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.960 are you going to cut to pay for it? Because 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:13.120 the private sector won't fund nuclear reactors because it doesn't 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.160 stack up. So tax payers, including everyone in this room, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.960 is going to have to pay for this nuclear plan. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:26.000 Jason Anthony Albernezi challenged Peter Dutton directly on his nuclear plan. 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.120 Is this ultimately shaping up to be an energy election? 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.520 Well, I think the government wants to make it an 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:37.280 election about Peter Dutton's nuclear policy, and Peter Dutton wants 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.640 to make it an election about Anthony Albinezi's failure to 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.040 bring power bills down by two hundred and seventy dollars 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.600 a year, which is of course what he promised before 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:48.520 the last election. 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:50.760 When you go to the supermarket now you're now paying 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.760 thirty percent more for groceries, paying about thirty two percent 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.880 more for your electricity and the Prime Minister promised at 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:00.240 one of these debates at the last election that your 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.800 power bills would go down by two hundred and seventy 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.880 five dollars. Instead they're up by thirteen hundred dollars. 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.360 So I think both leaders are coming at this issue 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.880 from different perspectives. Both leaders are throwing around a lot 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.240 of numbers. They're talking about the cost of gas and 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.400 bringing it down by percentages, and they're both arguing about 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.120 each other's costings plan. Peter Dutton says his plan is 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:28.400 forty four percent cheaper than the government's energy transition plan. 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.200 The Prime Minister says the coalition's nuclear plan will cost 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:36.040 six hundred billion dollars, which of course Peter Dutton disputes. 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.840 So when you have both leaders throwing these big numbers 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.080 around like that in a very short space of time, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.760 I'm not sure that most voters really understand what they're 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.360 arguing about it. It's quite confusing, and I think when 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.840 it comes to concerns that voters might have, Peter Dutton's 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.840 pledged to build six or seven nuclear power stations is 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:03.720 probably more concerning to them than Anthony Albanesi's plan to 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.240 build more wind farms. And put more solar panels on 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:08.559 people's roofs. 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.160 I mean both leaders were flooding the zone with heaps 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.080 of different numbers being thrown at us during the debate. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.640 But through that, Jason, what did Dunn actually have to 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.200 say about his nuclear plant? 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.960 Well, he didn't say all that much about it. He 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:29.320 did try to say that in Canada in France, that 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.319 there's a lot of nuclear power in their energy grids. 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.080 In France there is seventy percent nuclear in the system. 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.680 Our policy is to make sure that we can underpin 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.880 our economy with a stable energy market for the next 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:43.720 hundred years. 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.040 I'm not sure that that strikes accord with many voters 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.840 when he's talking about the next one hundred years, because 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.360 people who are worried about their power bills want them 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:58.080 to come down fairly soon, and Peter Dutton's nuclear policy 0:11:58.160 --> 0:11:59.880 is not going to do that over the next ten 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.360 ten years because the first nuclear power plants not scheduled 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:07.000 to come online until the mid twenty thirties. The one 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.760 thing that Peter Dunton sounded a bit better on was 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.880 when he was talking about how much his policy will 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.000 cost versus what the Prime Minister is offering now. 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:21.040 Your plan independently cost it by Frontier Economics, a company 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.559 used by the Labor Party and probably the best economist 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.160 when it comes to looking at energy policy in the country, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.400 puts the Labor Party policy of renewables only at six 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.720 hundred billion dollars. Our policy is forty four percent cheaper 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.440 than that two hundred and thirty one billion dollars in total. 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.679 And I thought Peter Dutton was quite convincing on that 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.200 issue when it comes to the relative costings that each 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.439 party is applying to their energy policies. 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.040 As with most elections, Jason, ultimately both sides are trying 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.240 to convince voters they are better at managing the economy. 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:55.400 He was more convincing on that front. 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.800 Well, I don't think either leader delivered a knockout blow here, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.840 but this is the coalition's number one bread and butter issue, 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.199 and I did think Peter Dutton made some good points 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.960 about the coalition's strength when it comes to economic management, 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.480 but he didn't really land a blow on the Prime Minister. 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.120 And I think the Prime Minister was able to point 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.480 out that Labor is the only party that has delivered 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.480 two budget surpluses in the last twenty years. 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.440 A seventy eight billion dollar deficit we inherited, We turned 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.319 that into a twenty two bion dollar surplus, and then 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.440 we turned a deficit of more than fifty bon into 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.199 a fifteen bion dollar surplus. 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.760 The Coalition had been promising a surplus, of course, it 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:43.560 famously didn't deliver one under Scott Morrison, Malcolm Turnbull or 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.920 Tony Abbott. And so I think Minister was able to 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:52.199 show that well Labor has been managing the economy relatively 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.360 well compared to the Coalition. He was also able to 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.800 make the point that interest rates have started coming down, 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.800 that inflation within the Reserve Banks target band. And I 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.400 think when it comes to rebuttal that the Prime Minister 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.480 did a pretty good job there as well. 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.600 Jason, the Prime Minister won the debate. But beyond that, 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.719 what did it tell you about how he's faring at 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:16.880 this point in the campaign? 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.640 Well, I mean, because this debate was in front of 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.920 a studio audience of the people in that room, I 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.400 didn't detect much anger towards the Prime Minister. There wasn't 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.200 from what I could tell, much of a mood for change. 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.080 And I thought that was really telling that if this 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:37.720 is a random sample of ordinary voters. It didn't seem 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.480 to me like most of them wanted to throw the 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:47.120 Prime minister out. You often hear political pundits talking about 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:52.160 voters you're waiting with baseball bats to smash the incumbent. 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.840 I couldn't see any of those sort of baseball bats 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.200 in the audience tonight, So I think the Prime Minister 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.160 would come away feeling you are reassured that he's not 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.040 really on the nose with voters, if that audience is 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.600 an accurate snapshot of the electorate. 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.080 Jason, thanks so much for burning the midnight all for us. 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.360 Daniel, It's always great to talk with you, and beyond 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:32.239 seven am. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.920 Also in the news today, thousands of public hospital doctors 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.280 in New South Wales are participating in a three day 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.800 strike pleading for better pay and conditions to stop colleagues 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.040 fleeing to other states. Doctors from more than thirty New 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.600 South Wales public hospitals walked off the job yesterday seeking 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.320 a one off thirty percent salary increase and better working conditions, 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:56.160 including guarantee breaks. He's the first strike by New South 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.400 Wales doctors in more than twenty five years. Thousands of 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.040 workers at Star and Entertainment casinos have had their positions 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.240 saved after a US gaming giant has signed a rescue 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.840 package to keep the business from falling into administration. Star 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.640 Entertainment has signed a three hundred million dollar agreement with 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:17.120 Bally's Corporation, with Bally's paying one hundred million immediately to 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:21.040 keep Cassina doors open across Brisbane, the Gold Coast and Sydney. 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.360 This has been seven am. Thanks for listening.