1 00:00:05,790 --> 00:00:08,578 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,639 --> 00:00:12,750 Sean Aylmer: Both gold and Bitcoin have surged recently. In fact, both 3 00:00:12,809 --> 00:00:15,900 Sean Aylmer: have hit new records. It's a little unusual because many 4 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:19,410 Sean Aylmer: would consider gold and cryptocurrency to be at the opposite 5 00:00:19,410 --> 00:00:24,210 Sean Aylmer: ends of the risk spectrum. Why are they rallying simultaneously, 6 00:00:24,210 --> 00:00:27,120 Sean Aylmer: and how should investors think about them both? Remember, this 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,270 Sean Aylmer: is general information only. You should always seek professional advice 8 00:00:30,270 --> 00:00:33,360 Sean Aylmer: before making your own investment decisions. Sally Auld is the 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,080 Sean Aylmer: chief investment officer at JBWere. Sally, welcome to Fearing Grid. 10 00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:38,190 Sally Auld: Thank you, Sean. 11 00:00:38,820 --> 00:00:41,220 Sean Aylmer: Let's have a look at the fundamentals of the two 12 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:45,870 Sean Aylmer: asset classes first. What's behind the rise in the price 13 00:00:45,870 --> 00:00:48,750 Sean Aylmer: of gold? What does gold trade- off? What are the 14 00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:49,769 Sean Aylmer: fundamentals of gold? 15 00:00:49,769 --> 00:00:51,750 Sally Auld: I think, in the short term, there are probably a 16 00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:55,830 Sally Auld: couple of drivers of the gold price. One is often, 17 00:00:56,220 --> 00:00:59,700 Sally Auld: I guess, fear around rising inflation. Gold is often viewed 18 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:03,420 Sally Auld: by many investors as quite an effective hedge against inflation. 19 00:01:04,349 --> 00:01:06,300 Sally Auld: I guess we're in an environment where we have had, 20 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,520 Sally Auld: at least in the US, a couple of inflation numbers 21 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,250 Sally Auld: that have come in on the stronger side of expectations. 22 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:15,690 Sally Auld: When you look at short- term inflation expectations in the 23 00:01:15,690 --> 00:01:18,300 Sally Auld: market in the US, they look like they've risen over 24 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:21,719 Sally Auld: the last couple of months. Perhaps that's behind some of 25 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:24,509 Sally Auld: the lift in the gold price. Another thing that we 26 00:01:24,509 --> 00:01:28,559 Sally Auld: often associate stronger gold prices with is just maybe a 27 00:01:28,559 --> 00:01:31,709 Sally Auld: little bit of, I guess, worry about geopolitical concerns or 28 00:01:31,709 --> 00:01:36,179 Sally Auld: broader uncertainty about the geopolitical environment. Investors like to own 29 00:01:36,180 --> 00:01:37,679 Sally Auld: gold. They see it as a bit of a safe 30 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,830 Sally Auld: haven in a world that might appear a bit fractious 31 00:01:40,980 --> 00:01:44,190 Sally Auld: like it is at the moment. I guess with the ongoing 32 00:01:44,849 --> 00:01:49,350 Sally Auld: war between Israel and Palestine and then, obviously, the lingering 33 00:01:49,350 --> 00:01:54,390 Sally Auld: conflict between Russia and Ukraine, perhaps that's behind some of 34 00:01:54,390 --> 00:01:57,390 Sally Auld: the bid to gold. But I think there's also an 35 00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:01,320 Sally Auld: interesting structural story, which we've talked a bit about in 36 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,290 Sally Auld: our work at JBWere, which is that we have seen 37 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:08,730 Sally Auld: very much so pre- financial crisis but also, just recently, 38 00:02:08,730 --> 00:02:11,730 Sally Auld: in the last couple of years, an underlying bid to 39 00:02:11,730 --> 00:02:15,660 Sally Auld: gold by central banks. One of the biggest participants in 40 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:18,750 Sally Auld: that dynamic, when you look at the data, has been 41 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:22,469 Sally Auld: actually the People's Bank of China. China has been quite 42 00:02:22,469 --> 00:02:26,400 Sally Auld: a noticeable accumulator of gold in recent years. I think short- 43 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,770 Sally Auld: term drivers are pretty constructive for the gold price. But, 44 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:31,500 Sally Auld: longer term, we think there's a bit of a structural 45 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:33,689 Sally Auld: bid to gold, which is helping it higher over the 46 00:02:33,690 --> 00:02:34,739 Sally Auld: medium term as well. 47 00:02:35,429 --> 00:02:38,669 Sean Aylmer: Going even broader than that, a schoolmate's father, when he 48 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,788 Sean Aylmer: learned I was becoming an economist, always asked me, " Sean, 49 00:02:41,788 --> 00:02:43,860 Sean Aylmer: what's the intrinsic value of gold?" which I never had 50 00:02:43,860 --> 00:02:47,580 Sean Aylmer: a good answer for. But is it a scarcity thing? Why is 51 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:52,050 Sean Aylmer: gold held in such esteem? Is it because ever since 52 00:02:52,050 --> 00:02:55,980 Sean Aylmer: Bretton Woods, it has become, well, literally, the gold standard? 53 00:02:55,980 --> 00:02:58,828 Sean Aylmer: It's the absolute backup currency. 54 00:02:59,369 --> 00:03:02,190 Sally Auld: Yeah. I think that's exactly right. I think, fundamentally, it's 55 00:03:02,190 --> 00:03:05,550 Sally Auld: a true reserve asset. It's interesting because one of the 56 00:03:05,550 --> 00:03:08,099 Sally Auld: reasons we think central banks or some central banks have 57 00:03:08,099 --> 00:03:11,910 Sally Auld: been increased buyers of gold is just to, I guess, 58 00:03:11,910 --> 00:03:16,230 Sally Auld: reflect on what happened in early 2022 when Russia invaded 59 00:03:16,230 --> 00:03:20,550 Sally Auld: Ukraine. Both the US and European authorities said, " Well, now 60 00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:23,430 Sally Auld: that you've done that, we are going to freeze the 61 00:03:23,430 --> 00:03:27,240 Sally Auld: FX reserves that you guys have," which are denominated in 62 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,070 Sally Auld: US dollars and in Euro, and prevented Russia from accessing 63 00:03:32,070 --> 00:03:35,999 Sally Auld: those reserves. I guess many other central banks in particular 64 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,630 Sally Auld: parts of the world might've observed that dynamic take place 65 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:41,910 Sally Auld: and say, " Well, perhaps we don't want to have to 66 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:45,059 Sally Auld: ever be as vulnerable or in the same position." Maybe 67 00:03:45,059 --> 00:03:48,090 Sally Auld: it makes sense to, perhaps, transfer some of our FX 68 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:51,059 Sally Auld: reserves out of US dollars out of Euro and into 69 00:03:51,059 --> 00:03:53,190 Sally Auld: gold in the sense that if it's sitting there in gold, 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,440 Sally Auld: no one can actually take that away from you. It 71 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,320 Sally Auld: is a true reserve asset. I think that's in large 72 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,040 Sally Auld: part what gives it its intrinsic value but also, and 73 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,399 Sally Auld: quite importantly, is also what distinguishes it from some of the 74 00:04:05,490 --> 00:04:06,960 Sally Auld: cryptocurrencies as well. 75 00:04:07,530 --> 00:04:09,599 Sean Aylmer: We'll get on the cryptos in a moment. The long- 76 00:04:09,599 --> 00:04:12,660 Sean Aylmer: term outlook for gold then, if we have demand from 77 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:16,678 Sean Aylmer: central banks... I get the inflation expectations, though. We've had 78 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,470 Sean Aylmer: a few prints recently, which have been above expectations. But 79 00:04:19,470 --> 00:04:24,149 Sean Aylmer: generally, inflation is trending lower. Shouldn't that take some of 80 00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:25,530 Sean Aylmer: the steam out of the gold price? 81 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,780 Sally Auld: Yeah, it should. I mean, I think you're exactly right. 82 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:29,909 Sally Auld: The other thing that we observe with gold is that 83 00:04:29,910 --> 00:04:33,630 Sally Auld: it has, in the past, been very highly correlated with 84 00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:37,320 Sally Auld: movements in real interest rates. Typically, when real interest rates 85 00:04:37,380 --> 00:04:40,919 Sally Auld: rise, the gold price goes down. That's largely just a 86 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,009 Sally Auld: bit of an opportunity cost story. If you can put 87 00:04:44,009 --> 00:04:46,889 Sally Auld: your money in the bank and earn good interest on 88 00:04:46,889 --> 00:04:50,339 Sally Auld: it, then the option of perhaps just holding gold isn't 89 00:04:50,339 --> 00:04:53,310 Sally Auld: as attractive because you forego a lot of that interest 90 00:04:53,310 --> 00:04:56,669 Sally Auld: income. That opportunity cost is obviously a lot higher as 91 00:04:56,670 --> 00:05:00,029 Sally Auld: interest rates are rising. Conversely, when real rates come down, 92 00:05:00,389 --> 00:05:03,839 Sally Auld: often the gold price rallies. That had been a pretty 93 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,510 Sally Auld: tight relationship for the better part of a decade at 94 00:05:06,510 --> 00:05:09,720 Sally Auld: least. But it's broken down a little bit. But notwithstanding 95 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,419 Sally Auld: that, if we look back over a three or six- 96 00:05:12,420 --> 00:05:15,630 Sally Auld: month period, real rates are still a good 50 basis 97 00:05:15,630 --> 00:05:19,049 Sally Auld: points off their peaks. That might be providing a little 98 00:05:19,049 --> 00:05:21,270 Sally Auld: bit of support to the gold price to this notion 99 00:05:21,270 --> 00:05:24,540 Sally Auld: that the Fed looked like they're finished raising rates. We 100 00:05:24,540 --> 00:05:26,700 Sally Auld: can maybe debate when they're going to start rate cuts 101 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:29,339 Sally Auld: and how quickly those rate cuts will come. But I 102 00:05:29,339 --> 00:05:32,549 Sally Auld: think most investors are broadly comfortable with this view that 103 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:35,339 Sally Auld: the peak in rates is in for the cycle. Therefore, 104 00:05:35,339 --> 00:05:37,979 Sally Auld: it means the opportunity cost of holding gold in the 105 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:40,259 Sally Auld: future is not going to be as high. 106 00:05:42,119 --> 00:05:43,589 Sean Aylmer: I'm going to put you on the spot here then, 107 00:05:43,589 --> 00:05:46,169 Sean Aylmer: Sally. Does gold go higher at this point? 108 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:48,570 Sally Auld: Well, it's had a pretty good run. 109 00:05:50,070 --> 00:05:50,070 Sean Aylmer: It has. 110 00:05:50,070 --> 00:05:52,349 Sally Auld: I would be reluctant to say it's going to go a 111 00:05:52,349 --> 00:05:56,219 Sally Auld: whole lot higher. We wouldn't be, at JBWere, recommending to 112 00:05:56,219 --> 00:06:00,118 Sally Auld: our clients that they introduce gold into their portfolios at 113 00:06:00,119 --> 00:06:02,909 Sally Auld: these levels in the gold price. I think we feel 114 00:06:02,910 --> 00:06:06,270 Sally Auld: like the risks look a little bit asymmetric. Particularly, I 115 00:06:06,270 --> 00:06:08,849 Sally Auld: think, if we saw central banks come out and if 116 00:06:08,849 --> 00:06:11,250 Sally Auld: we saw... Powell speaks later this week. If we saw 117 00:06:11,250 --> 00:06:14,639 Sally Auld: him say, " Look, let's just remember everyone. We're pretty serious 118 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:17,279 Sally Auld: about getting back to the inflation target. 2% is the 119 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,510 Sally Auld: number. We're not going to tolerate protracted deviations from that." 120 00:06:21,930 --> 00:06:24,660 Sally Auld: That might provide some of the reassurance that the market 121 00:06:24,660 --> 00:06:27,900 Sally Auld: is looking for in a world where US growth still 122 00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:30,839 Sally Auld: seems to be pretty strong. Commodity prices are rising again. 123 00:06:31,230 --> 00:06:34,889 Sally Auld: Inflation expectations are lifting a little bit. Maybe the rise 124 00:06:34,889 --> 00:06:38,190 Sally Auld: in the gold price reflects, I guess, some anxiety that 125 00:06:39,150 --> 00:06:41,880 Sally Auld: this residual fear that people might have that central banks 126 00:06:41,940 --> 00:06:45,690 Sally Auld: aren't going to be true to their mandate might actually realize. 127 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,909 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Sally. We'll be back in a minute. 128 00:06:56,220 --> 00:06:59,190 Sean Aylmer: I am speaking to Sally Auld, chief investment officer at 129 00:07:01,410 --> 00:07:06,779 Sean Aylmer: JBWere. Okay. Let's switch to Bitcoin. The introduction of ETFs involving 130 00:07:06,809 --> 00:07:10,050 Sean Aylmer: cryptocurrencies, particularly Bitcoin, has been the driver in the price 131 00:07:10,109 --> 00:07:14,070 Sean Aylmer: of cryptos, particularly Bitcoin. How far does that go, and 132 00:07:14,070 --> 00:07:15,720 Sean Aylmer: are there other factors at play here? 133 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,320 Sally Auld: That's a great question because unlike gold, which has been 134 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,559 Sally Auld: around a really long time, we've seen how it behaves 135 00:07:22,559 --> 00:07:26,489 Sally Auld: through economic cycles. We can't really say the same for Bitcoin. It 136 00:07:26,490 --> 00:07:29,489 Sally Auld: hasn't been around that long. It's been pretty volatile. It had 137 00:07:29,490 --> 00:07:33,660 Sally Auld: big rally in 2021, big collapse in '22, and then 138 00:07:33,660 --> 00:07:36,990 Sally Auld: another big rally in '23/ '24. It's got a very short 139 00:07:36,990 --> 00:07:41,340 Sally Auld: history. It's not clear what the fundamental drivers of Bitcoin are. But I 140 00:07:41,340 --> 00:07:45,089 Sally Auld: certainly think the introduction of these ETF products, which have 141 00:07:45,089 --> 00:07:48,690 Sally Auld: allowed investors much easier and much more conventional access to 142 00:07:48,870 --> 00:07:53,160 Sally Auld: Bitcoin, have probably contributed to the rise in the price of Bitcoin. 143 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,939 Sally Auld: There's also talk of what people call a Bitcoin halving 144 00:07:56,940 --> 00:08:00,030 Sally Auld: event, which is an event that doesn't happen very often, 145 00:08:00,030 --> 00:08:02,039 Sally Auld: but when it does happen, what it means is that 146 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,000 Sally Auld: the rate of production of Bitcoin declines. Maybe there's a 147 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,380 Sally Auld: sense out there that this is a thing that's in 148 00:08:10,380 --> 00:08:14,580 Sally Auld: scarce supply. That can maybe add to the price support 149 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:17,518 Sally Auld: for Bitcoin. I think also we're in a world, at 150 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,609 Sally Auld: the moment, where financial conditions have loosened. Rates have fallen. 151 00:08:20,610 --> 00:08:25,170 Sally Auld: Equities have risen. Credit spreads have narrowed. Easier financial conditions, 152 00:08:25,170 --> 00:08:28,860 Sally Auld: I think, probably also help with supporting the prices of 153 00:08:28,860 --> 00:08:31,320 Sally Auld: some of those more speculative assets, such as Bitcoin. 154 00:08:32,610 --> 00:08:35,099 Sean Aylmer: We talked about the intrinsic value of gold. I'm going 155 00:08:35,099 --> 00:08:37,920 Sean Aylmer: to ask you about the intrinsic value of Bitcoin. Is there 156 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,160 Sean Aylmer: one, or is it too early to answer that question? 157 00:08:42,389 --> 00:08:44,190 Sally Auld: I mean, I don't know the answer to that. At 158 00:08:44,190 --> 00:08:46,710 Sally Auld: the moment, I think my answer is no. I don't 159 00:08:46,710 --> 00:08:50,578 Sally Auld: know what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. We're used 160 00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:54,300 Sally Auld: to, in the world of investment strategy, being able to 161 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:59,039 Sally Auld: model the fair value of most financial instruments based on 162 00:08:59,609 --> 00:09:04,890 Sally Auld: fundamental drivers, whether they're macroeconomic drivers or other market variables. 163 00:09:06,870 --> 00:09:09,480 Sally Auld: It's not clear what actually drives Bitcoin. You can see 164 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:14,130 Sally Auld: some correlation between changes in real yields and what Bitcoin 165 00:09:14,130 --> 00:09:16,439 Sally Auld: is doing. What we do know is that's pretty highly 166 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,770 Sally Auld: correlated to ups and downs in the Nasdaq. It tends 167 00:09:19,770 --> 00:09:23,520 Sally Auld: to behave a bit more like a growth asset or 168 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,460 Sally Auld: a risk asset in a portfolio in that it does 169 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:29,160 Sally Auld: seem to rise when equity markets are rising. It seems 170 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,950 Sally Auld: to fall when equity markets are falling. But in terms 171 00:09:31,950 --> 00:09:35,098 Sally Auld: of pinning down what that intrinsic value is, I don't have a good 172 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:35,730 Sally Auld: answer for that. 173 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,270 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Let's bring this back to my final question, which 174 00:09:39,270 --> 00:09:41,190 Sean Aylmer: is about when you're investing. How do you think of 175 00:09:41,190 --> 00:09:44,010 Sean Aylmer: these two asset classes just parking the valuation, which you 176 00:09:44,010 --> 00:09:46,679 Sean Aylmer: can never do when you're investing? You mentioned before that 177 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,819 Sean Aylmer: gold's quite pricey to start putting into your portfolio. What 178 00:09:50,820 --> 00:09:53,670 Sean Aylmer: I really want, Sally, for you to answer is how 179 00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:57,088 Sean Aylmer: should investors think about gold as an asset class. How 180 00:09:57,090 --> 00:10:01,590 Sean Aylmer: should they think about cryptocurrency/Bitcoin as an asset class in 181 00:10:01,590 --> 00:10:02,640 Sean Aylmer: their portfolios? 182 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,088 Sally Auld: Sure. For gold, we think of that as a genuine 183 00:10:06,090 --> 00:10:09,660 Sally Auld: diversifier to a multi- asset portfolio. It's one which has 184 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,010 Sally Auld: a proven ability over many cycles to hedge drawdowns in 185 00:10:14,010 --> 00:10:17,940 Sally Auld: equity markets. When equities fall, gold tends to rally. You 186 00:10:17,940 --> 00:10:21,210 Sally Auld: get that nice offsetting effect in your portfolio. We really 187 00:10:21,210 --> 00:10:24,270 Sally Auld: like gold and the role that it can play. Some 188 00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:26,160 Sally Auld: of the work that we've done at JBWere tells us 189 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,859 Sally Auld: that regardless of what time period you look at over 190 00:10:28,859 --> 00:10:32,670 Sally Auld: the last 40 or 50 years, basically, our analysis is that at 191 00:10:32,670 --> 00:10:35,160 Sally Auld: any point in time, you should probably hold somewhere between 192 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,059 Sally Auld: five and 10% of your portfolio in gold. We really 193 00:10:39,059 --> 00:10:42,599 Sally Auld: like that. We've been advocates of having gold in portfolios 194 00:10:42,599 --> 00:10:45,450 Sally Auld: for the last couple of years. I think Bitcoin is 195 00:10:45,450 --> 00:10:48,990 Sally Auld: a more difficult proposition. One thing to remember about Bitcoin 196 00:10:48,990 --> 00:10:53,310 Sally Auld: is that it is a very volatile asset. Depending on 197 00:10:53,340 --> 00:10:54,960 Sally Auld: what measure you use, whether you look at it in 198 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,629 Sally Auld: US dollars or Aussie dollars, it runs anywhere from four 199 00:10:57,630 --> 00:11:01,860 Sally Auld: to five times the level of realized volatility relative to 200 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,208 Sally Auld: gold. It's highly volatile. Now, people might say, " Well, it 201 00:11:06,208 --> 00:11:08,760 Sally Auld: does move a lot, so that offsets the volatility." But 202 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,260 Sally Auld: I think you have to acknowledge that if you add 203 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:12,630 Sally Auld: it to the portfolio, you don't want to add anywhere 204 00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:14,430 Sally Auld: near as much as you would be adding for gold, 205 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:18,179 Sally Auld: just simply because it's more volatile. As we talked about 206 00:11:18,179 --> 00:11:21,330 Sally Auld: before, really highly correlated with the Nasdaq, for example. I 207 00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:23,609 Sally Auld: think what that would do is make you question the 208 00:11:23,609 --> 00:11:27,480 Sally Auld: diversification benefits it brings to the portfolio. Then, I think 209 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,070 Sally Auld: the other thing we've got to talk about is the 210 00:11:29,070 --> 00:11:32,670 Sally Auld: ESG aspect of Bitcoin. People often think about this in 211 00:11:32,670 --> 00:11:35,730 Sally Auld: terms of the energy consumption that's required to do all 212 00:11:35,730 --> 00:11:39,420 Sally Auld: the mining behind the discovering of Bitcoin. But I think 213 00:11:39,420 --> 00:11:41,820 Sally Auld: it's also important to look at what the chair of 214 00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:46,890 Sally Auld: the SEC said about Bitcoin when they approved those ETF products, 215 00:11:46,890 --> 00:11:50,910 Sally Auld: which is that, basically, it's volatile. It's speculative. It's used 216 00:11:50,910 --> 00:11:54,540 Sally Auld: effectively for criminal purposes, for terrorism, for money laundering, for 217 00:11:54,540 --> 00:11:59,699 Sally Auld: trafficking, sanctions evasion. I think, for investors who really care 218 00:11:59,699 --> 00:12:02,700 Sally Auld: about the ESG aspect of their portfolio, that's a really 219 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:06,420 Sally Auld: important thing to remember because in most investors' processes, when 220 00:12:06,420 --> 00:12:09,929 Sally Auld: they look at ESG, Bitcoin would probably fall at the first hurdle. 221 00:12:10,500 --> 00:12:12,330 Sean Aylmer: Sally, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 222 00:12:12,719 --> 00:12:13,499 Sally Auld: A pleasure, Sean. 223 00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:17,519 Sean Aylmer: That was Sally Auld, chief investment officer at JBWere. This 224 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,890 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed business interview. Remember, this is 225 00:12:19,890 --> 00:12:23,490 Sean Aylmer: general information only. You should seek professional advice before making 226 00:12:23,490 --> 00:12:26,520 Sean Aylmer: investment decisions. Join us every morning for the full episode 227 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,830 Sean Aylmer: of Fear and Greed Daily Business News for people who 228 00:12:28,830 --> 00:12:31,679 Sean Aylmer: make their own decisions. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.