Speaker 1: Charlie, you recently went to Mossman for Tony Abbott's launch
Speaker 1: of his new book, Australia A History. What did you
Speaker 1: walk into?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of ways I could answer that,
Speaker 2: I guess. I suppose the primary place I walked into
Speaker 2: was an extremely beautiful and very well off area in
Speaker 2: the north Northern Beaches of Sydney, which was part of
Speaker 2: the Wringer Electric which was obviously Abbot country for about
Speaker 2: a quarter of a century.
Speaker 1: Charlie Lewis writes about politics for Kracky. He's been a
Speaker 1: close observer of Tony Abbott, from his time as Liberal
Speaker 1: Party bomb thrower to his face off with Julia Gillard
Speaker 1: to his short Prince Philip themed time as PM. Now
Speaker 1: Charlie is tracking Abbot's political aft life, which brings him
Speaker 1: to Sydney's affluent Northern Beaches.
Speaker 2: This was held at the Modern Rowers Club, which is
Speaker 2: a very salubrious place to catch up. I had one
Speaker 2: of those slightly anxiety dream sort of experiences. The food
Speaker 2: looked fantastic, but I kept reaching for platters that kind
Speaker 2: of kept drifting away with the waiters or not being
Speaker 2: in quite the right place at the right time. I
Speaker 2: don't know, but the general mood in the crowd was
Speaker 2: very pro Tony and very pro his vision of Australia.
Speaker 1: I would say Tony Erwitt's vision for Australia still reverberates
Speaker 1: through his connections at SKA News, to he's behind the
Speaker 1: scenes maneuverings within the Liberal Party, to the version of
Speaker 1: history he writes about in this book.
Speaker 2: The general tone and the way they talked about it
Speaker 2: on the night was essentially that the kind of left
Speaker 2: skolds of academia have given us a very dark and
Speaker 2: black arm band idea of our history, and that this
Speaker 2: book is I think an explicit attempt to redress that
Speaker 2: balance in ABD size, to give a more positive and
Speaker 2: celebratory take on Australian history. And it's probably fair to
Speaker 2: say his take would be if you had to be
Speaker 2: colonized better, it'd be the British than the Belgians, or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today, Charlie.
Speaker 1: There was some tiny average legacy and he's continuing control
Speaker 1: over the Liberal Party. It's fun day, October twenty.
Speaker 2: So, Charlie, what was the mood like in the room
Speaker 2: cherry and very celebratory. I mean, I guess you would
Speaker 2: expect the tone to be this way. It's obviously it's
Speaker 2: a publisher organized event. It's not going to be a grilling.
Speaker 2: I guess it'll give you an idea of the tenor
Speaker 2: of the crowd that when he was being pushed or
Speaker 2: challenged on any of his analysis of Australian history was
Speaker 2: often for not being right wing enough. So he kind
Speaker 2: of comes to the conclusion that the two great prime
Speaker 2: ministers in Australian history from his point of view a
Speaker 2: Bob Hawk and John Howard, and he talks about his
Speaker 2: reasons why he thinks that's the case. And so one
Speaker 2: of the most kind of challenging questions he got it
Speaker 2: was again very friendly put but it was like, well
Speaker 2: what about Robert Menzies, Like how could you include a
Speaker 2: labor guy above Robert Menzies. Basically it was kind of
Speaker 2: about his hardcore as question in got controversial.
Speaker 1: So tell me about the book itself and how did
Speaker 1: they speak about it on the night.
Speaker 2: It's a funny. One One of the things that really
Speaker 2: struck me about the night is that a lot of
Speaker 2: the kind of little culture war mentions that he made
Speaker 2: felt quite old school in and of themselves. He kind
Speaker 2: of went back to the idea that there's this group
Speaker 2: of people who were constantly trying to topple all of
Speaker 2: our statues, And I thought no one said that for
Speaker 2: about five years. As far as I can tell, I
Speaker 2: don't think that's It seemed like it was. It had
Speaker 2: frozen a little bit at the end of his time
Speaker 2: in Parliament. So I suppose there is very much that
Speaker 2: influence coming through in his idea of commemoration and what
Speaker 2: story gets told, and I suppose who gets to tell
Speaker 2: that story?
Speaker 1: And all this took place in the electorate that voted
Speaker 1: him out in twenty nineteen. But there's clearly still a
Speaker 1: lot of love for Tony Abbott in some quarters. Why
Speaker 1: do you think there is a lasting appeal for for
Speaker 1: Rabbit among sections of the Liberal community.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone any other minister
Speaker 2: from that era, from the Rudd, Gillard, Rudd, Eras from Turnbull,
Speaker 2: definitely not Morrison. I don't think any of them will
Speaker 2: retain that level of personal appeal. And I suppose there's
Speaker 2: a few different things that I think inform that I
Speaker 2: remember talking to a lot of his supporters way back
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen when I covered his last election in Worringer,
Speaker 2: when he was defeated by Independent Zali Stegel, talking to
Speaker 2: some of his supporters, people like Gideon Rosner who was
Speaker 2: then at the Institute of Public Affairs, his former colleague
Speaker 2: Nick Minchem, and a big thing that kind of kept
Speaker 2: coming up was the what might have been element, the
Speaker 2: fact that he didn't make it to a second term.
Speaker 2: Really actually, in some ways Launders his reputation because they
Speaker 2: were able to sort of argue, well, you know, no
Speaker 2: one does that well on their first term. No one
Speaker 2: gets that popular and beloved until they've get a few
Speaker 2: terms and they can really build a legacy. So in
Speaker 2: a way, the failure kept him pure because you know,
Speaker 2: if you compare it to Anthony Alberneze, who's currently is
Speaker 2: set up his party with this historic majority, he has
Speaker 2: set up the possibility of a very long labor reign,
Speaker 2: and yet somehow he seems to just make people more
Speaker 2: and more angry at him throughout that whole process because
Speaker 2: it involves so much compromise and negotiation and kind of disappointment,
Speaker 2: but is not teaching with any of that. He burns
Speaker 2: out and then also destroys Malcolm Turnbull, which is I
Speaker 2: think what a lot of people who still love him
Speaker 2: would consider his great His great legacy is he took
Speaker 2: that Prime Minister down. I should I should say. One
Speaker 2: of one of the biggest laughs he got the in
Speaker 2: the evening was when talking about his own time and saying, look,
Speaker 2: I was only power for a couple of years. That
Speaker 2: that gets about a half a page. I think that's
Speaker 2: about fair. He then quickly headed I gave Malcolm Turmble
Speaker 2: a third of a page, got howls of laughter in
Speaker 2: the room, and they through the little harbourside mansion reference
Speaker 2: in there, which I thought was very funny given that
Speaker 2: we were surrounded by harbourside mansions where we.
Speaker 1: Were coming up. How Tony y Abbott still shapes the
Speaker 1: Liberal Party, Charlie Tony Ebbitt's been out of Parliament since
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, but how would you described why he's still
Speaker 1: influencing his party.
Speaker 2: I think he is seemingly kind of still manipulating quite
Speaker 2: a bit of what's going on in the Liberal Party.
Speaker 3: After the wipeout. Has come a shock switch numper Jimp
Speaker 3: Price announcing she's jumping the National ship to join the
Speaker 3: Liberal Party room, surprising members of the party that got
Speaker 3: her onto the federal stage.
Speaker 2: The defection of sench inis Enter Price. The idea that
Speaker 2: this came directly from Abbott's machinations. He was making phone
Speaker 2: calls and sending texts on his way to on his
Speaker 2: way to Hungary to address a victor. Aubam linked think
Speaker 2: tank doesn't seem to be contested. And also the interesting
Speaker 2: one recently is Andrew Hasty, who obviously has I think
Speaker 2: quite battlingly qupit the opposition benches to be a backbench.
Speaker 4: Yesterday I called the leader yesterday morning. In fact, I
Speaker 4: informed her of my decision. It was a very friendly
Speaker 4: and respectful conversation. And here we are. So I'll move over.
Speaker 1: To questions now really challenging the leadership.
Speaker 2: No, I won't be who I think was both implicitly
Speaker 2: and in some cases explicitly. I think someone who was
Speaker 2: identified as the kind of air apparent to that muscular,
Speaker 2: religiously informed conservatism that Abbot kind of evinced in his
Speaker 2: time in office. I mean, the direct lineage between the
Speaker 2: two is an interesting one. When Abbot was voted out,
Speaker 2: he essentially handed his mailing list over to Hasty. So
Speaker 2: everyone who got emails from Abbot when he was in
Speaker 2: office now gets emails from Hasey. That to me is
Speaker 2: quite a suggestive person to choose to hand that information
Speaker 2: over to. So it'll be very interesting to see how
Speaker 2: that plays out. I mean a lot of the best
Speaker 2: reporting on this has been done recently by the Saturday Paper.
Speaker 2: Jason Kotsukas has done some really good stuff on this,
Speaker 2: and they quoted a moderate liberal saying, look, if you
Speaker 2: want to know why the partiesn't such as smoking ruin
Speaker 2: right now, look no further than Tony Abbut and Peter Kredline.
Speaker 2: They've still got their hands all over the place.
Speaker 1: So he shined a clear and continued he christ in
Speaker 1: continuing to influence his party. What says did you get
Speaker 1: Charlie from being at Tony Abbots launch about whether he
Speaker 1: still holds out hope for getting back into politics.
Speaker 2: So the audience were very pro Tony, and inevitably it
Speaker 2: came up a few times that people said have you
Speaker 2: ever thought about throwing your hat back in the ring?
Speaker 2: One person just explicitly said, you know, we need you back, Tony,
Speaker 2: and that got a big cheer, and there was a
Speaker 2: moment I think of genuine self awareness, where he said, Look,
Speaker 2: the thing that you have to realize is that I
Speaker 2: benefit from the globe of nostalgia that if I got
Speaker 2: back into politics, a lot of the people who are
Speaker 2: now calling for my return would start liking me quite swiftly.
Speaker 2: You do wonder if even if he did really real
Speaker 2: secretly wished to come back, or how's he going to
Speaker 2: do it. The electorate that he held for twenty five years,
Speaker 2: he got very soundly beaten pretty much as soon as
Speaker 2: they could find a fairly credible alternative. As II Segel
Speaker 2: has since then, we've seen her in two consecutive elections
Speaker 2: increase her margin rather than seeing some kind of slide
Speaker 2: back towards the riots. So that being the case, who's
Speaker 2: going to give up their safe seat for him to
Speaker 2: return to Parliament. There's also the fact that we've just
Speaker 2: had a federal election where we've just seen that the
Speaker 2: Abbot playbook perhaps has hit diminishing returns quite conclusively with
Speaker 2: the voting out of Peter Dutton, who echoed, shall we
Speaker 2: say a lot of the tactics and approaches that Abbot
Speaker 2: so successfully wielded as not position leader. The other thing
Speaker 2: that really stands out about Abbot's time is that, yes,
Speaker 2: he was a very effective opposition leader, but he was
Speaker 2: also an effective opposition leader in a good time to
Speaker 2: have been the opposition leader. The obviously the labor part
Speaker 2: he was doing an extremely good job opposing itself at
Speaker 2: that time, and obviously that combined with the very full
Speaker 2: throated support of the majority of the media in this country.
Speaker 2: But he was able to like rid all that to
Speaker 2: you know, a very thumping victory. But then you see
Speaker 2: what that looks like in kind of practical terms, and
Speaker 2: it's it's Prince Philip been given a knighthood. It's it's
Speaker 2: the strangest, most unocomically punitive budget that manages to please
Speaker 2: almost well literally nobody. So as soon as people saw that,
Speaker 2: you know, obviously his kind of personal popularity goes off
Speaker 2: the cliff. So whether Australian voters kind of respond to
Speaker 2: the more grand visions of a figure like Abbot, I
Speaker 2: sort of suspect them. Maybe they don't.
Speaker 1: So what do you think, Tanyeah, what's political legacy is
Speaker 1: and how has he shaped this country in the long term.
Speaker 2: I suppose the policy legacy of Abbot is probably pretty minimal.
Speaker 2: When you think about it, when he came in, he
Speaker 2: maintained a lot of the social infrastructure that had been
Speaker 2: put in place by the former labor government. He sent
Speaker 2: mixed messages and wounded a lot of it, but he
Speaker 2: didn't change, for example, industrial relations, which was usually a
Speaker 2: big thing that a liberal government would want to do
Speaker 2: after a labor government. I think his primary legacy, and
Speaker 2: again we are now seeing perhaps it kind of curl
Speaker 2: towards its end, is one of tome, one of approach, provocation,
Speaker 2: the low blow, the negative campaign, the opposed all costs
Speaker 2: kind of approach to politics that lasted us quite a
Speaker 2: long time up until It's an interesting thing that he had.
Speaker 2: I believe the book ends with the defeat of the
Speaker 2: Voice to Parliament, and that's probably the place where Abbot
Speaker 2: would see, whether he would admit it or not, would
Speaker 2: see perhaps the strongest impact of his legacy, the approach
Speaker 2: that the Liberal Party took to. That was the I
Speaker 2: think the strongest, loudest echo of Abbot's time in politics.
Speaker 2: But it would be very interesting to see how well
Speaker 2: that holds up, say it the next time election, whether
Speaker 2: they try and do a different approach entirely.
Speaker 1: And given he said he doesn't want to return to
Speaker 1: politics because it might impact his purity in the eyes
Speaker 1: of his followers. What do you think Abbott wants to
Speaker 1: do next?
Speaker 2: It would appear from recent reporting that he feels his
Speaker 2: best bet is to be kind of move into that
Speaker 2: John Howard role as the kind of elder states of
Speaker 2: the Liberal Party, the guy that kind of has some
Speaker 2: gravitas just merely by his length of public service, his
Speaker 2: length of time in the public eye. And I think
Speaker 2: he's doing quite a good job of achieving that. Just
Speaker 2: in the last few months. It's felt like that's the
Speaker 2: tone of the interviews that he's getting, whether it's with
Speaker 2: The Australian or even with the Nine Papers. So I
Speaker 2: suppose I think he would view his sort of best
Speaker 2: bet for an ongoing influence in Australian public life via
Speaker 2: those processes, via being the kind of public intellectual, and
Speaker 2: also by kind of trying to manipulate the Liberal Party
Speaker 2: kind of behind the scenes and get his kind of
Speaker 2: preferred people in place who you have to assume are
Speaker 2: being influenced policy wise by what we hear from turning over.
Speaker 1: Charlie Lewis, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much Sonuel.
Speaker 1: Also in the news, David little Prow says he doesn't
Speaker 1: want Barnaby Joyce to leave the Nationals, saying the New
Speaker 1: England MP still has a contribution to make. Joyce has
Speaker 1: reportedly been in talks with Pauline Hanson to defect from
Speaker 1: the Nationals and join One Nation. On the weekend, Barneaby
Speaker 1: Joyce Cidy won't be recontesting his Lower House seat at
Speaker 1: the next election due to a breakdown in relations with
Speaker 1: the Nationals leader. He didn't rule out joining One Nation,
Speaker 1: and Hanson confirmed previously discussing this with him and millions
Speaker 1: of Americans have taken to the streets in every US
Speaker 1: state to protest the Trump administration. The No King's protests
Speaker 1: on Saturday marked one of the largest days of protest
Speaker 1: in US history. Republican governors in several states placed National
Speaker 1: Guard troops on standby in preparation for the valies, and
Speaker 1: in Texas and Virginia they were deployed ahead of the protest.
Speaker 1: US President Donald Trump gave Fox News an interview and
Speaker 1: declared that he is not a king. I'm Daniel James.
Speaker 1: This is seven a m. Thanks for listening.