WEBVTT - The world according to Tony Abbott

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie, you recently went to Mossman for Tony Abbott's launch

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<v Speaker 1>of his new book, Australia A History. What did you

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<v Speaker 1>walk into?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's a lot of ways I could answer that,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess. I suppose the primary place I walked into

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<v Speaker 2>was an extremely beautiful and very well off area in

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<v Speaker 2>the north Northern Beaches of Sydney, which was part of

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<v Speaker 2>the Wringer Electric which was obviously Abbot country for about

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<v Speaker 2>a quarter of a century.

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie Lewis writes about politics for Kracky. He's been a

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<v Speaker 1>close observer of Tony Abbott, from his time as Liberal

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<v Speaker 1>Party bomb thrower to his face off with Julia Gillard

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<v Speaker 1>to his short Prince Philip themed time as PM. Now

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie is tracking Abbot's political aft life, which brings him

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<v Speaker 1>to Sydney's affluent Northern Beaches.

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<v Speaker 2>This was held at the Modern Rowers Club, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a very salubrious place to catch up. I had one

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<v Speaker 2>of those slightly anxiety dream sort of experiences. The food

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<v Speaker 2>looked fantastic, but I kept reaching for platters that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of kept drifting away with the waiters or not being

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<v Speaker 2>in quite the right place at the right time. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, but the general mood in the crowd was

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<v Speaker 2>very pro Tony and very pro his vision of Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>I would say Tony Erwitt's vision for Australia still reverberates

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<v Speaker 1>through his connections at SKA News, to he's behind the

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<v Speaker 1>scenes maneuverings within the Liberal Party, to the version of

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<v Speaker 1>history he writes about in this book.

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<v Speaker 2>The general tone and the way they talked about it

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<v Speaker 2>on the night was essentially that the kind of left

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<v Speaker 2>skolds of academia have given us a very dark and

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<v Speaker 2>black arm band idea of our history, and that this

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<v Speaker 2>book is I think an explicit attempt to redress that

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<v Speaker 2>balance in ABD size, to give a more positive and

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<v Speaker 2>celebratory take on Australian history. And it's probably fair to

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<v Speaker 2>say his take would be if you had to be

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<v Speaker 2>colonized better, it'd be the British than the Belgians, or

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<v Speaker 2>something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM today, Charlie.

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<v Speaker 1>There was some tiny average legacy and he's continuing control

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<v Speaker 1>over the Liberal Party. It's fun day, October twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Charlie, what was the mood like in the room

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<v Speaker 2>cherry and very celebratory. I mean, I guess you would

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<v Speaker 2>expect the tone to be this way. It's obviously it's

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<v Speaker 2>a publisher organized event. It's not going to be a grilling.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess it'll give you an idea of the tenor

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<v Speaker 2>of the crowd that when he was being pushed or

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<v Speaker 2>challenged on any of his analysis of Australian history was

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<v Speaker 2>often for not being right wing enough. So he kind

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<v Speaker 2>of comes to the conclusion that the two great prime

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<v Speaker 2>ministers in Australian history from his point of view a

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<v Speaker 2>Bob Hawk and John Howard, and he talks about his

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<v Speaker 2>reasons why he thinks that's the case. And so one

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<v Speaker 2>of the most kind of challenging questions he got it

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<v Speaker 2>was again very friendly put but it was like, well

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<v Speaker 2>what about Robert Menzies, Like how could you include a

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<v Speaker 2>labor guy above Robert Menzies. Basically it was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>about his hardcore as question in got controversial.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me about the book itself and how did

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<v Speaker 1>they speak about it on the night.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a funny. One One of the things that really

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<v Speaker 2>struck me about the night is that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of little culture war mentions that he made

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<v Speaker 2>felt quite old school in and of themselves. He kind

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<v Speaker 2>of went back to the idea that there's this group

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<v Speaker 2>of people who were constantly trying to topple all of

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<v Speaker 2>our statues, And I thought no one said that for

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<v Speaker 2>about five years. As far as I can tell, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think that's It seemed like it was. It had

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<v Speaker 2>frozen a little bit at the end of his time

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<v Speaker 2>in Parliament. So I suppose there is very much that

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<v Speaker 2>influence coming through in his idea of commemoration and what

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<v Speaker 2>story gets told, and I suppose who gets to tell

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<v Speaker 2>that story?

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<v Speaker 1>And all this took place in the electorate that voted

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<v Speaker 1>him out in twenty nineteen. But there's clearly still a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of love for Tony Abbott in some quarters. Why

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<v Speaker 1>do you think there is a lasting appeal for for

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<v Speaker 1>Rabbit among sections of the Liberal community.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone any other minister

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<v Speaker 2>from that era, from the Rudd, Gillard, Rudd, Eras from Turnbull,

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<v Speaker 2>definitely not Morrison. I don't think any of them will

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<v Speaker 2>retain that level of personal appeal. And I suppose there's

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<v Speaker 2>a few different things that I think inform that I

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<v Speaker 2>remember talking to a lot of his supporters way back

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty nineteen when I covered his last election in Worringer,

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<v Speaker 2>when he was defeated by Independent Zali Stegel, talking to

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<v Speaker 2>some of his supporters, people like Gideon Rosner who was

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<v Speaker 2>then at the Institute of Public Affairs, his former colleague

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<v Speaker 2>Nick Minchem, and a big thing that kind of kept

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<v Speaker 2>coming up was the what might have been element, the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that he didn't make it to a second term.

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<v Speaker 2>Really actually, in some ways Launders his reputation because they

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<v Speaker 2>were able to sort of argue, well, you know, no

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<v Speaker 2>one does that well on their first term. No one

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<v Speaker 2>gets that popular and beloved until they've get a few

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<v Speaker 2>terms and they can really build a legacy. So in

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<v Speaker 2>a way, the failure kept him pure because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you compare it to Anthony Alberneze, who's currently is

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<v Speaker 2>set up his party with this historic majority, he has

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<v Speaker 2>set up the possibility of a very long labor reign,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet somehow he seems to just make people more

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<v Speaker 2>and more angry at him throughout that whole process because

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<v Speaker 2>it involves so much compromise and negotiation and kind of disappointment,

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<v Speaker 2>but is not teaching with any of that. He burns

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<v Speaker 2>out and then also destroys Malcolm Turnbull, which is I

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<v Speaker 2>think what a lot of people who still love him

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<v Speaker 2>would consider his great His great legacy is he took

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<v Speaker 2>that Prime Minister down. I should I should say. One

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<v Speaker 2>of one of the biggest laughs he got the in

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<v Speaker 2>the evening was when talking about his own time and saying, look,

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<v Speaker 2>I was only power for a couple of years. That

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<v Speaker 2>that gets about a half a page. I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>about fair. He then quickly headed I gave Malcolm Turmble

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<v Speaker 2>a third of a page, got howls of laughter in

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<v Speaker 2>the room, and they through the little harbourside mansion reference

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<v Speaker 2>in there, which I thought was very funny given that

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<v Speaker 2>we were surrounded by harbourside mansions where we.

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<v Speaker 1>Were coming up. How Tony y Abbott still shapes the

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<v Speaker 1>Liberal Party, Charlie Tony Ebbitt's been out of Parliament since

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen, but how would you described why he's still

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<v Speaker 1>influencing his party.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he is seemingly kind of still manipulating quite

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of what's going on in the Liberal Party.

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<v Speaker 3>After the wipeout. Has come a shock switch numper Jimp

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<v Speaker 3>Price announcing she's jumping the National ship to join the

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<v Speaker 3>Liberal Party room, surprising members of the party that got

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<v Speaker 3>her onto the federal stage.

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<v Speaker 2>The defection of sench inis Enter Price. The idea that

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<v Speaker 2>this came directly from Abbott's machinations. He was making phone

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<v Speaker 2>calls and sending texts on his way to on his

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<v Speaker 2>way to Hungary to address a victor. Aubam linked think

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<v Speaker 2>tank doesn't seem to be contested. And also the interesting

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<v Speaker 2>one recently is Andrew Hasty, who obviously has I think

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<v Speaker 2>quite battlingly qupit the opposition benches to be a backbench.

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<v Speaker 4>Yesterday I called the leader yesterday morning. In fact, I

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<v Speaker 4>informed her of my decision. It was a very friendly

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<v Speaker 4>and respectful conversation. And here we are. So I'll move over.

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<v Speaker 1>To questions now really challenging the leadership.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I won't be who I think was both implicitly

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<v Speaker 2>and in some cases explicitly. I think someone who was

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<v Speaker 2>identified as the kind of air apparent to that muscular,

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<v Speaker 2>religiously informed conservatism that Abbot kind of evinced in his

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<v Speaker 2>time in office. I mean, the direct lineage between the

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<v Speaker 2>two is an interesting one. When Abbot was voted out,

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<v Speaker 2>he essentially handed his mailing list over to Hasty. So

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<v Speaker 2>everyone who got emails from Abbot when he was in

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<v Speaker 2>office now gets emails from Hasey. That to me is

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<v Speaker 2>quite a suggestive person to choose to hand that information

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<v Speaker 2>over to. So it'll be very interesting to see how

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<v Speaker 2>that plays out. I mean a lot of the best

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<v Speaker 2>reporting on this has been done recently by the Saturday Paper.

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<v Speaker 2>Jason Kotsukas has done some really good stuff on this,

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<v Speaker 2>and they quoted a moderate liberal saying, look, if you

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<v Speaker 2>want to know why the partiesn't such as smoking ruin

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<v Speaker 2>right now, look no further than Tony Abbut and Peter Kredline.

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<v Speaker 2>They've still got their hands all over the place.

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<v Speaker 1>So he shined a clear and continued he christ in

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<v Speaker 1>continuing to influence his party. What says did you get

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie from being at Tony Abbots launch about whether he

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<v Speaker 1>still holds out hope for getting back into politics.

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<v Speaker 2>So the audience were very pro Tony, and inevitably it

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<v Speaker 2>came up a few times that people said have you

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<v Speaker 2>ever thought about throwing your hat back in the ring?

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<v Speaker 2>One person just explicitly said, you know, we need you back, Tony,

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<v Speaker 2>and that got a big cheer, and there was a

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<v Speaker 2>moment I think of genuine self awareness, where he said, Look,

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that you have to realize is that I

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<v Speaker 2>benefit from the globe of nostalgia that if I got

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<v Speaker 2>back into politics, a lot of the people who are

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<v Speaker 2>now calling for my return would start liking me quite swiftly.

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<v Speaker 2>You do wonder if even if he did really real

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<v Speaker 2>secretly wished to come back, or how's he going to

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<v Speaker 2>do it. The electorate that he held for twenty five years,

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<v Speaker 2>he got very soundly beaten pretty much as soon as

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<v Speaker 2>they could find a fairly credible alternative. As II Segel

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<v Speaker 2>has since then, we've seen her in two consecutive elections

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<v Speaker 2>increase her margin rather than seeing some kind of slide

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<v Speaker 2>back towards the riots. So that being the case, who's

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<v Speaker 2>going to give up their safe seat for him to

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<v Speaker 2>return to Parliament. There's also the fact that we've just

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<v Speaker 2>had a federal election where we've just seen that the

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<v Speaker 2>Abbot playbook perhaps has hit diminishing returns quite conclusively with

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<v Speaker 2>the voting out of Peter Dutton, who echoed, shall we

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<v Speaker 2>say a lot of the tactics and approaches that Abbot

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<v Speaker 2>so successfully wielded as not position leader. The other thing

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<v Speaker 2>that really stands out about Abbot's time is that, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>he was a very effective opposition leader, but he was

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<v Speaker 2>also an effective opposition leader in a good time to

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<v Speaker 2>have been the opposition leader. The obviously the labor part

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<v Speaker 2>he was doing an extremely good job opposing itself at

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<v Speaker 2>that time, and obviously that combined with the very full

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<v Speaker 2>throated support of the majority of the media in this country.

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<v Speaker 2>But he was able to like rid all that to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a very thumping victory. But then you see

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<v Speaker 2>what that looks like in kind of practical terms, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's Prince Philip been given a knighthood. It's it's

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<v Speaker 2>the strangest, most unocomically punitive budget that manages to please

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<v Speaker 2>almost well literally nobody. So as soon as people saw that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, obviously his kind of personal popularity goes off

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<v Speaker 2>the cliff. So whether Australian voters kind of respond to

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<v Speaker 2>the more grand visions of a figure like Abbot, I

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<v Speaker 2>sort of suspect them. Maybe they don't.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do you think, Tanyeah, what's political legacy is

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<v Speaker 1>and how has he shaped this country in the long term.

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose the policy legacy of Abbot is probably pretty minimal.

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<v Speaker 2>When you think about it, when he came in, he

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<v Speaker 2>maintained a lot of the social infrastructure that had been

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<v Speaker 2>put in place by the former labor government. He sent

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<v Speaker 2>mixed messages and wounded a lot of it, but he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't change, for example, industrial relations, which was usually a

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<v Speaker 2>big thing that a liberal government would want to do

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<v Speaker 2>after a labor government. I think his primary legacy, and

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<v Speaker 2>again we are now seeing perhaps it kind of curl

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<v Speaker 2>towards its end, is one of tome, one of approach, provocation,

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<v Speaker 2>the low blow, the negative campaign, the opposed all costs

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<v Speaker 2>kind of approach to politics that lasted us quite a

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<v Speaker 2>long time up until It's an interesting thing that he had.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe the book ends with the defeat of the

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<v Speaker 2>Voice to Parliament, and that's probably the place where Abbot

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<v Speaker 2>would see, whether he would admit it or not, would

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<v Speaker 2>see perhaps the strongest impact of his legacy, the approach

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<v Speaker 2>that the Liberal Party took to. That was the I

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<v Speaker 2>think the strongest, loudest echo of Abbot's time in politics.

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<v Speaker 2>But it would be very interesting to see how well

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<v Speaker 2>that holds up, say it the next time election, whether

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<v Speaker 2>they try and do a different approach entirely.

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<v Speaker 1>And given he said he doesn't want to return to

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<v Speaker 1>politics because it might impact his purity in the eyes

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<v Speaker 1>of his followers. What do you think Abbott wants to

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<v Speaker 1>do next?

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<v Speaker 2>It would appear from recent reporting that he feels his

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<v Speaker 2>best bet is to be kind of move into that

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<v Speaker 2>John Howard role as the kind of elder states of

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<v Speaker 2>the Liberal Party, the guy that kind of has some

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<v Speaker 2>gravitas just merely by his length of public service, his

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<v Speaker 2>length of time in the public eye. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>he's doing quite a good job of achieving that. Just

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<v Speaker 2>in the last few months. It's felt like that's the

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<v Speaker 2>tone of the interviews that he's getting, whether it's with

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<v Speaker 2>The Australian or even with the Nine Papers. So I

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<v Speaker 2>suppose I think he would view his sort of best

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<v Speaker 2>bet for an ongoing influence in Australian public life via

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<v Speaker 2>those processes, via being the kind of public intellectual, and

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<v Speaker 2>also by kind of trying to manipulate the Liberal Party

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<v Speaker 2>kind of behind the scenes and get his kind of

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<v Speaker 2>preferred people in place who you have to assume are

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<v Speaker 2>being influenced policy wise by what we hear from turning over.

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie Lewis, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much Sonuel.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, David little Prow says he doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>want Barnaby Joyce to leave the Nationals, saying the New

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<v Speaker 1>England MP still has a contribution to make. Joyce has

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<v Speaker 1>reportedly been in talks with Pauline Hanson to defect from

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<v Speaker 1>the Nationals and join One Nation. On the weekend, Barneaby

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<v Speaker 1>Joyce Cidy won't be recontesting his Lower House seat at

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<v Speaker 1>the next election due to a breakdown in relations with

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<v Speaker 1>the Nationals leader. He didn't rule out joining One Nation,

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<v Speaker 1>and Hanson confirmed previously discussing this with him and millions

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<v Speaker 1>of Americans have taken to the streets in every US

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<v Speaker 1>state to protest the Trump administration. The No King's protests

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<v Speaker 1>on Saturday marked one of the largest days of protest

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<v Speaker 1>in US history. Republican governors in several states placed National

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<v Speaker 1>Guard troops on standby in preparation for the valies, and

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<v Speaker 1>in Texas and Virginia they were deployed ahead of the protest.

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<v Speaker 1>US President Donald Trump gave Fox News an interview and

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<v Speaker 1>declared that he is not a king. I'm Daniel James.

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<v Speaker 1>This is seven a m. Thanks for listening.