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Speaker 1: From the Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Harvey, Albow versus Dutton, Pope Leo versus the

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Speaker 1: other Cardinals?

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Speaker 2: Who cares?

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Speaker 1: The real contest energizing Australians this month is Nagi versus Brookie,

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Speaker 1: a debate so divisive it cut through the political chatter

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Speaker 1: like a hot knife through butter.

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Speaker 3: You know the old recipe tins that you file recipes in.

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Speaker 4: Recipe tin Eats is a online version of.

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Speaker 1: My old Famed author cook and owner of recipe Tin Eats,

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Speaker 1: Nagi Mahashi took to Instagram accusing Penguin Books of publishing

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Speaker 1: a cookbook with plagiarized recipes.

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Speaker 4: Everyone has been asking me for my cookie recipes since

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Speaker 4: my bakery went viral.

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Speaker 2: Bake with Brookie is officially in stores October twenty nine.

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Speaker 1: Might seem trivial at first, but the stakes change pretty

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Speaker 1: quickly when the book in question, Bake with Brookie by

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Speaker 1: Brooke Bellamy, is reported to have generated over four million

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Speaker 1: dollars in revenue since publication six months ago. Bellamy has

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Speaker 1: denied copying anyone's recipes. The stakes changed again when it

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Speaker 1: was revealed the recipes in question were for two of

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Speaker 1: the most sacred baked goods, Buckliver and Australia's own caramel slice.

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Speaker 2: Consider me rattled when I saw this.

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Speaker 1: When news of the alleged plagiarism hit, everyone had an

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Speaker 1: opinion from the self assured.

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Speaker 4: Some people say it's just a recipe, but I think

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Speaker 4: that's missing the point. The idea of plagiarizing a particular

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Speaker 4: recipe just seems a bit ludicrous to me.

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Speaker 2: To people whose feelings were more dubious.

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Speaker 5: Look, I'm not really Anthony Bourdain, but I feel like

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Speaker 5: it could easily be a coincidence.

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Speaker 2: Some people felt inspired.

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Speaker 1: So there's been a lot of drama over this caramel slice,

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Speaker 1: so let's make it.

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Speaker 2: Others dismayed.

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Speaker 5: I saw the rooms this morning and I was like, damn,

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Speaker 5: Now my cookies have controversy.

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Speaker 1: In the newsrooms of The Australian. It's been literated at

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Speaker 1: Caroline Overington, Hello and feature writer Fiona Harari Hi leading

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Speaker 1: the debate. Now, Fiona, you said the other day, in

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Speaker 1: high excitement in the middle of the office.

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Speaker 2: The bucklover is this smoking.

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Speaker 1: Gun, which I thought was a phrase that I just

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Speaker 1: had to get onto the front. Tell me why is

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Speaker 1: the Bucklover the smoking gun, and what are we talking about?

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Speaker 3: The bucklover is a smoking gun. Look. I did a

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Speaker 3: bit of a search for Bucklob I recipes.

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Speaker 6: That have a lot of hits, and oh, the variations

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Speaker 6: were quite extraordinary. There are so many variations in a

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Speaker 6: the ingredients, be the quantities, and see the instructions for

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Speaker 6: Bucklob recipes that when you're getting down to things like

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Speaker 6: one hundred and seventy five meals of this and one

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Speaker 6: hundred and eighty five grams of that, and you know

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Speaker 6: the number of sheets of felow that you need and

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Speaker 6: the number of strips.

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Speaker 3: That you need to cut it into.

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Speaker 6: That did make me wonder how you could end up

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Speaker 6: with two recipes that were really much more similar than

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Speaker 6: any other bu clever recipes I was able to find.

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Speaker 1: In The Australian's newsroom, we spend quite a bit of

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Speaker 1: time talking about quite serious things. I often see you, Fiona,

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Speaker 1: having very deep conversations about injustice or major health problems that.

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Speaker 2: People are going through.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen you as excited about

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Speaker 1: a story as you were about this.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's got everything, but it's also quite unlike

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Speaker 6: most stories we're used to seeing.

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Speaker 3: You know, no one's started in the process.

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Speaker 6: There's no really politics involved, there's no crime. The fact

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Speaker 6: that a recipe, you know, which is something so intrinsically

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Speaker 6: based in our homes, could become the subject of such

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Speaker 6: you know, fascination and discussion and so many questions did

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Speaker 6: she do it?

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Speaker 3: Did she not do it? Is fantastic for those of

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Speaker 3: us watching on It's a food fight.

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Speaker 4: Did online fes are just fantastics?

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Speaker 2: Are I was very proud of myself.

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Speaker 1: I suggested a headline to the editor and he used

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Speaker 1: it in print, which was Rumble In the Crumble, I'd

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Speaker 1: have with myself for that.

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Speaker 2: One of the.

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Speaker 1: Debates that's arisen out of the Rumble is whether or

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Speaker 1: not it's possible to own a recipe, or whether recipes

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Speaker 1: are part of our collective cultural knowledge. Personally, I think

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Speaker 1: it is absolutely possible, and I think the fact that

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Speaker 1: that is even questioned suggests that we don't really value

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Speaker 1: women's work or women's intellectual property. This is considered a

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Speaker 1: feminine domain, baking, and there seems to be a slightly

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Speaker 1: snobbish assumption that was all the same and it all

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Speaker 1: must be easy.

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Speaker 2: What did you think about that well.

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Speaker 4: I think that's incredibly astute because this is big business.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about tens of millions of dollars generated by

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Speaker 4: two female entrepreneurs. And it also peeled back some layers,

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Speaker 4: if you will, on the book industry, because cookbook books

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Speaker 4: are far and away the most successful books in Australia.

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Speaker 4: Like without the cookbook industry, many publishers quite simply would collapse.

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Speaker 4: Now in terms of whether or not you can copyright

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Speaker 4: a recipe, plagiarism is not in itself a crime. You

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Speaker 4: can't be sued for plagiarism. It's not a criminal offense.

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Speaker 4: Traditionally in journalism it's been a moral thing. But it's

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Speaker 4: interesting to me that that creative work, as you say,

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Speaker 4: because it's by women, perhaps attracts no protection in law.

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Speaker 2: That seems like a gap in the law to me, Fiona,

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Speaker 2: what do you think?

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Speaker 6: Look for me, there's obviously a very important area of

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Speaker 6: big business, but I think that there's a whole question

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Speaker 6: of courtesy. That's what it comes down to for me,

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Speaker 6: as someone who's cooked for a very long time and

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Speaker 6: comes from a family of very keen bakers. In my

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Speaker 6: very old and very worn recipe photo album at home,

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Speaker 6: I have a recipe that is called simply Nancy's chocolate Cake.

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Speaker 3: I don't know who Nancy is.

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Speaker 6: I think she was a friend of my auntie's, and

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Speaker 6: I think I got this recipe thirty years ago, but

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Speaker 6: it will always been Nancy's chocolate cake. And people make

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Speaker 6: recipes that I've given them, and I may have got

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Speaker 6: it from a cookbook years ago, but it's known as

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Speaker 6: Fiona's brownie is because I gave it to them. Now,

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Speaker 6: I've never professed to have come up with that recipe,

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Speaker 6: but I think that over a very long time, there's

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Speaker 6: been a tradition where you acknowledge who you have received

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Speaker 6: a particular recipe from. And this is not to say

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Speaker 6: what has or has not gone on this case. I

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Speaker 6: think that as a basic courtesy, people have always generally acknowledged,

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Speaker 6: I think when they've received a recipe from someone else.

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Speaker 6: So as a very first instance, I think you should

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Speaker 6: do that. Can you own a recipe, Well, you can't

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Speaker 6: own a buckle of a recipe, but you can presumably

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Speaker 6: have your version credited to yourself, is the way I

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Speaker 6: would put it.

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Speaker 4: What's interesting to me is I think people would accept

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Speaker 4: that if you have a very special recipe, you own it.

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Speaker 4: The one example that has been given to me since

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Speaker 4: this story broke was the snow egg. Now everybody knows

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Speaker 4: that the snow egg is owned by Peter Gilmore because

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Speaker 4: he invented it, he presented it on Master Chef. If

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Speaker 4: you saw that meringue on the little bowl of Grenda

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Speaker 4: anywhere else, you would know exactly where they got it from.

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Speaker 4: What the problem is here is that the two recipes

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Speaker 4: that Nagi says have appeared in Brookie's book, rightly or wrongly,

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Speaker 4: are for a caramel slice and baklava.

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Speaker 2: Now baklover is.

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Speaker 4: At least three thousand years old and probably longer. It's

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Speaker 4: certainly been made by people in the Middle East for

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Speaker 4: at least that long. And the caramel slice a recipe

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Speaker 4: for that has been on the side of the nest

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Speaker 4: lay tin for at least fifty years. So it wasn't

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Speaker 4: unique enough. It's not a snow egg.

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Speaker 1: When you talked about the smoking gun, about the buckle

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Speaker 1: of Afiona, I think one of the things you might

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Speaker 1: have been referring to is the formatting of these recipes.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just that the ingredients are identical down

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Speaker 1: to the gram, but that the paragraphs are formatted in

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Speaker 1: the same way, so there's three sentences in the paragraph,

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Speaker 1: there's a break and there's not a threat.

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Speaker 3: And the order in.

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Speaker 6: Which the instructions are given as well, like take your

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Speaker 6: forty sheets of Philo pastry, cut them in four slices

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Speaker 6: on the diagonal. I mean, they're very specific instructions. And again,

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Speaker 6: on my quick perusal of different buckclover recipes before, there

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Speaker 6: were huge variations. There's lebonones, bucklova, there's Greek bucklov there's

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Speaker 6: different types of nuts. Some of them seem to have

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Speaker 6: orange blossom water in there. There are a lot of variations.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, caramel slice maybe because there are fewer ingredients.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but there's also the point that you can't make

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Speaker 4: a caramel slice without including those ingredients. And that's what

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Speaker 4: Brookie said. She's like, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: cooking is not just not just a matter of throwing

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Speaker 4: things together. It's a science. Things react to each other.

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Speaker 4: That's why the recipes work. So it's not like you

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Speaker 4: can say, oh, okay, dump in three cups of flour

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Speaker 4: and make it.

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Speaker 2: It has to be one cup.

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Speaker 6: I hadn't been aware that in the recipe t and

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Speaker 6: eats version. So she actually says, I've taken this recipe

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Speaker 6: from someone else.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And she does that with actually quite a few recipes,

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Speaker 4: because we agree that everybody has their recipe and then

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Speaker 4: they put like little bit of ginger in it. That's

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Speaker 4: your little twist.

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Speaker 6: I think if you've cooked for long enough and there

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Speaker 6: are recipe that you follow, I know, in my case,

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Speaker 6: there are things that I've had a recipe for originally,

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Speaker 6: and I've made it so many times over so many

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Speaker 6: years that I you know, you lose the recipe, you

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Speaker 6: remember it and you add your own additions to it,

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Speaker 6: and that's how it becomes your version of a bucklovar,

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Speaker 6: or of a spaghetti bolonnaise, or whatever else it might be.

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Speaker 4: But then other people come along. So let's say, for example,

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Speaker 4: the first person to stick a lemon up the chickens bump,

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Speaker 4: like that's now done by I did make a hand

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Speaker 4: gesture like that's now done by everyone. The first person

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Speaker 4: to put their hand under the skin, you know, and

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Speaker 4: rub the garlic around, but that's now done by everyone.

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Speaker 4: So who is to say who owns that particular little twist?

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Speaker 4: Well of the lemon?

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Speaker 6: But then what are you supposed to do? What are

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Speaker 6: you supposed to do? If you see a version of

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Speaker 6: a work that you believe you have produced and you

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Speaker 6: see pretty much the same ingredients, instructions steps, what are

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Speaker 6: you supposed to do?

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Speaker 3: Is it out there?

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Speaker 6: Have you given it out there to everyone? Or do

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Speaker 6: you have some sort of say over how it's.

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Speaker 4: How it's presented? Now? Nagi said, I just would have

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Speaker 4: liked some attribution because she's says the recipe was originally hers,

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Speaker 4: and Brookie says, no, it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: So it wasn't originally hers. Wasn't it someone else's?

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Speaker 2: It's someone else? But she acknowledged that, right, But then.

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Speaker 3: Maybe the attribution needs to go to the original person.

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Speaker 3: I don't know at what point do you? Where does

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Speaker 3: the attribution begin and end?

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Speaker 2: Coming up? How the cookie has crumbled? Sorry?

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Speaker 1: The consequences of this cookbook controversy that Bellamy denies all

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Speaker 1: accusations of plagiarism. She says she's been using the caramel

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Speaker 1: slice recipe in question since twenty sixteen, four years before

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Speaker 1: it was published by Nagi Mahashi in twenty twenty. Bellamy

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Speaker 1: also offered to remove the recipe from future reprints of

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Speaker 1: the book and express great respect for Nagi, but it

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Speaker 1: seems the court of public opinion has sided with Nargu Mahashi,

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Speaker 1: and naturally, people focused on the optics have followed suit.

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Speaker 4: The recipe plagiarism saga has escalated with Brook Bellamy in

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Speaker 4: the owner of Baking Empire Brookie Bakehouse, dropped from a

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Speaker 4: big ambassador role.

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Speaker 1: Bellamy was released from her role as ambassador at the

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Speaker 1: Academy for Enterprising Girls, and when the two faced off

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Speaker 1: at the Australian Book Industry Awards in Melbourne's CBD.

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Speaker 6: Nagi Mahashi, the founder of popular food blog recipe Team Eats,

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Speaker 6: has bested fellow cookbook author Brook Bellamy in a major

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Speaker 6: book prize.

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Speaker 1: But most predictably, it was the online pylon that was

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Speaker 1: the most severe, leading to Nagi issuing a statement via

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Speaker 1: her Instagram account.

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Speaker 5: Please stop the trolling. I know I've made serious allegations,

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Speaker 5: but this does not justify the person at attacks that

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Speaker 5: I've seen online against Brook Bellamy.

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Speaker 6: I was reading and Claire can attest to this. Probably

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Speaker 6: way too many responses where this line of comments, and

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Speaker 6: I don't know that much about either woman, but a

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Speaker 6: lot of the people who were coming at quite ferociously

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Speaker 6: in favor of Nagi, were saying because we love her,

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Speaker 6: we love her, And I thought to myself, well, is

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Speaker 6: that a reason to come out and to defend someone?

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Speaker 6: To me, the argument should be not about if you

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Speaker 6: love someone or not. It's about if this has happened

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Speaker 6: to someone's recipe, should that person be acknowledged or should

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Speaker 6: they not be acknowledged. I mean, it's lovely that she's loved,

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Speaker 6: but to me, that's not really what's the question, because

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Speaker 6: there's there will be other cases where people.

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Speaker 3: Will allege their work has been used by others.

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Speaker 1: The reason people love Nagi is that she has done

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Speaker 1: something different. She has brought something that Jamie Oliver, Nigella

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Speaker 1: Laws and Bill Granger, you know, the guy with the

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Speaker 1: chicken and a lemon.

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Speaker 3: It's another who owns the.

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Speaker 4: Beer can in a chicken. It's got to be. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: What she brought to the table I think is her

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Speaker 4: authenticity and that's another ingredient, as it were in this story.

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Speaker 4: And she does it in such a superb way, whereas

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Speaker 4: Brookie has always been a bit more about baking cookies

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Speaker 4: from maybe a generation. Why audience not as broad.

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Speaker 6: See I don't think this is a question about personalities.

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Speaker 6: I think they have nothing to do with it, and

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Speaker 6: I know lots of people are getting it down to personalities.

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Speaker 6: It's a wider question of who do you attribute, And

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Speaker 6: I think in this case, in fact, maybe the original

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Speaker 6: person needs to be attributed and she's been forgotten. You know,

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Speaker 6: if Nagi has got the recipe from someone else and

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Speaker 6: she has attributed to this person, maybe that's the person

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Speaker 6: who needs the acknowledgment if her recipe has been taken.

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Speaker 1: Caroline Overington is The Australian's literary editor and Fiona Harari

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Speaker 1: is a feature writer at The Australia. You can read

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Speaker 1: their outstanding work anytime at the Australian dot com dot ay.

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Speaker 1: This episode was hosted by me Claire Harvey and produced

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Speaker 1: and edited by Jasper Leck, who also wrote our theme.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on the front this week. Our

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Speaker 1: team includes Kristin Amiot Leat Sammaglu, Tiffany Dimac, Josh Burton

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Speaker 1: and Stephanie Combs.