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Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for downloading the show. This is Better Than Yesterday.

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Speaker 1: It's a podcast that is full of useful tools and

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Speaker 1: useful conversations designed to make your day to day better

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Speaker 1: than yesterday. Every episode since twenty thirteen. That's all it is.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing it every week since then. My name's

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Speaker 1: Osha Ginsburg, and I'm very grateful you're here. It's the summertime,

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Speaker 1: so whatever you're doing, I hope it's okay. If you're

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Speaker 1: working helping other people have a rest, thank you. If

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Speaker 1: you're having arrest while other people are working, I hope

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Speaker 1: it's lovely. Whatever you're doing, I hope it's good. We

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Speaker 1: the team that make the show, we're having a break,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't want to leave you empty handed today.

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Speaker 1: So we're going back through twelve years of conversations and

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Speaker 1: I took a peak of some interesting things that might

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Speaker 1: be useful as you go through this time of the year,

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Speaker 1: and also things that can be fun to talk about

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Speaker 1: with people you haven't seen in a while, like relatives.

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Speaker 1: Today we are diving into the fascinating world of relationships.

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Speaker 1: We all have relationships with ourselves, with each other, with

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Speaker 1: their family, with our workpeople. But we're diving into the

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Speaker 1: world of relationships of mental health and neuroscience with doctor

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Speaker 1: Hannah Correll, who's a neuropsychologist at an author and her

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Speaker 1: specialist is understanding why our brains make us do the

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Speaker 1: things we do, particularly in the context of relationships. She

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Speaker 1: came to my attention pugas her book I found fascinating.

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Speaker 1: The book was called How to Break Up with Friends,

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Speaker 1: and it explores the complexities of friendship and how to

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Speaker 1: navigate relationships that may not be healthy for you. We're

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Speaker 1: only taking a few chunks out of this longer episode.

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Speaker 1: The episode is fantastic, listen to it's back in the

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Speaker 1: podcast feed, but I just wanted to give you a

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Speaker 1: couple of highlights from it. We talk about people pleasing relationships,

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Speaker 1: which we may call toxic relationships, and how important boundaries

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Speaker 1: are and boundaries can be a thing. That's a thing

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Speaker 1: for me. I had to learn a lot about them

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Speaker 1: because people pleasing is a behavior that many of us

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Speaker 1: struggle with. But where does people pleasing come from? What

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Speaker 1: can we do about it? How can we break free

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Speaker 1: from it? In this little bit, doctor Carrell explains the

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Speaker 1: psychological roots of people pleasing and how it can lead

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Speaker 1: to relationships that become unhealthy, but I wanted to like

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Speaker 1: if she had a personal experience with this kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: I actually I hate that word people pleasing because I

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Speaker 2: think it has a negative connotation to it. It's just

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Speaker 2: you're getting walked all over. It suggests that you give

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Speaker 2: yourself too freely, and it's something that you're doing wrong,

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Speaker 2: that you have to have better boundaries and you need

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Speaker 2: to be more assertive, which is true, but also it's

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Speaker 2: a beautiful thing to be somebody who gives. And your

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Speaker 2: default mode is I want to help you, let me

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Speaker 2: help you, Let me take the shirt off my back,

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Speaker 2: let me take the shirt off my mum's back, to

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Speaker 2: kind of help you.

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Speaker 3: And that was kind of my default mode.

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Speaker 2: And I know now that a lot of that was

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Speaker 2: from the way that I was raised in my core

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Speaker 2: beliefs that were triggering in me that if I don't

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Speaker 2: give everything to these people, then they're going to leave

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Speaker 2: me and they're not going to love me and they're

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Speaker 2: not going to be around anymore.

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Speaker 3: But the real, sad reality was that I was allowing.

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Speaker 2: People who are quite toxic to stay in my life,

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Speaker 2: hoping that one day, with acts of kindness, they want

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Speaker 2: to suddenly turn around and be like, oh my gosh, Hannah,

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Speaker 2: we really value you, and we really want to be

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Speaker 2: around you, and we want to carefully tenderly like you've

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Speaker 2: done for us.

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Speaker 3: But that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: Again and again and again it didn't happen, and I

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Speaker 2: sort of had this kind of realization that, you know what,

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Speaker 2: being afraid of having no friends is keeping me tied

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Speaker 2: to toxic friends, and there's no space left over to

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Speaker 2: make any other relationships that would actually treat me with

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Speaker 2: the same reciprocal kindness that I was giving.

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Speaker 1: It's such a powerful reminder, and this time of year,

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Speaker 1: when we went around we were around family a lot.

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Speaker 1: It's a reminder that our upbringing and the core beliefs

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Speaker 1: that we get from our upbringing really do shape our behavior.

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Speaker 1: The good news is as we can change these things.

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Speaker 1: I like a realization and what she said there about

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Speaker 1: that the fear of loneliness can actually keep us in

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Speaker 1: relationships that are not healthy for us. I've certainly hoped

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Speaker 1: that happened to me, and I'm sure you have to

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Speaker 1: the next part I wanted to talk about was, you know, boundaries.

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Speaker 1: If you've never heard about bands, there's a lot more

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Speaker 1: than something that happens in the cricket. Boundaries are essential

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Speaker 1: for healthy relationships, whether they be work relationships or familiar

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Speaker 1: relationships intimate relationships, but it's easier said than done, So

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Speaker 1: I wanted some practical advice from Hannah here on how

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Speaker 1: to establish boundaries to help you protect yourself protect your

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Speaker 1: mental health.

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Speaker 2: The unhealthy master syndrome where people love to be the savior,

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Speaker 2: or they love to be the hero on the high

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Speaker 2: horse who SUPs in and saves us, or they or

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Speaker 2: they're the giver, the over giver, and when we're in

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Speaker 2: a dark place and we're in a hard place, it's

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Speaker 2: really easy to take advantage of that because we need

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Speaker 2: it and we like it, and it's helpful and we

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Speaker 2: know that. You know, they probably shouldn't be driving past

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Speaker 2: and hanging out with us this evening because it's not

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Speaker 2: really healthy for them and they need to go home

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Speaker 2: and do their own stuff. Or no, I shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: taking money from that person again because they can't really

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Speaker 2: afford it, but I really need it. Or they're giving

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Speaker 2: me a lot of emotional support over the phone, but

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Speaker 2: they've actually got a wife and a kid who they

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Speaker 2: need to attend to as well, and they don't really

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Speaker 2: have the time or the energy for this, and this

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Speaker 2: is costing them to do it, and I know that,

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Speaker 2: and yet I'm continuing to do it. We need to

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Speaker 2: respect each other enough to know there's two parties here.

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Speaker 2: There's a party that is overgiving, that people pleasing mentality

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Speaker 2: where they're being triggered because they don't want to lose you,

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Speaker 2: or that's how they interact with people. They give, and

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Speaker 2: they give, and they give, and they give too much.

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Speaker 2: They give too much, and they have an issue with boundaries.

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Speaker 2: They have an issue with boundaries. Often we see this

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Speaker 2: when we break up with someone and we try to

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Speaker 2: be friends with them, and then that person might give

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Speaker 2: way too much to a relationship, like a friend wouldn't

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Speaker 2: normally do those types of things, but they're doing it

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Speaker 2: because they secretly.

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Speaker 3: Love you and want to get back with you. And

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Speaker 3: you let them do it, but you shouldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: We've all been there. So there's you allowing them to

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Speaker 2: realize that they're doing that and they'm actually setting the

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Speaker 2: boundary and not doing that. And sometimes you need to

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Speaker 2: be the one that sets the boundary. You need to

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Speaker 2: be the one that says, this isn't actually healthy for

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Speaker 2: you. You know you talking to me about your issues with

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Speaker 2: your marriage. This is beyond my scope now and you

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Speaker 2: need to go and talk to a therapist about this.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk to your wife about this, or you are

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Speaker 2: giving me too much of your emotional energy and time.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to stop calling you in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the night, and you I need you to stop taking

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Speaker 2: my palls in the middle of the night because you're

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Speaker 2: enabling me to do that. We both need to work

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Speaker 2: together to do this because I'm sucking you dry and

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Speaker 2: I don't want to ruin this friendship.

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Speaker 1: But it feels so nice when they're always the first

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Speaker 1: person to calling on my Instagram post and I whant

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Speaker 1: to catch up with the coffee they asked me about

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Speaker 1: you've been to BALI haven't you went to that water temple?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: And like that's a photo from my Instagram from two

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Speaker 1: years ago. You know, well, I mean there's a.

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Speaker 2: Love of friend, right or sure, and then there's the

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Speaker 2: marter friend who's giving too much. Yeah, I think it's

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Speaker 2: great if you have a friend that adores you.

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Speaker 3: That's affection. That's the affection. Part of the pillars of friendship.

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Speaker 2: That's the trust part and the support put The problem

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Speaker 2: is the respect part. The problem is respect because they

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Speaker 2: are putting you on a pedestal and they're giving way

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Speaker 2: too much, so they're almost overly respecting you. They're putting

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Speaker 2: you in this like parental position almost, and their admiration

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Speaker 2: and their behavior towards you is too much, is actually

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Speaker 2: not appropriate, But you're playing them do that.

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Speaker 3: It goes both ways.

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Speaker 2: You walk away from the interaction feeling worse than before

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Speaker 2: you went into it, feeling emotionally exhausted, with less money

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Speaker 2: in your pocket, with less time up your sleep, with

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Speaker 2: less energy than what you had before, the much needed

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Speaker 2: energy that you might have required for your job, for yourself,

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Speaker 2: for your sleep, for your child, for your partner, whatever

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Speaker 2: it is. If you're walking away from that interaction feeling

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Speaker 2: worse than before you went into it.

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Speaker 3: Rather than replenished, rather than loved, rather than.

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Speaker 2: Support it, rather than refueled, that is also a sign

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Speaker 2: that the balance is out of whack, because someone's taken

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Speaker 2: more than they're given and you're the one who's giving

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Speaker 2: it to them.

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Speaker 1: I love that's so practical. I love what she said there.

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Speaker 1: It's really useful stuff. Being honest about her needs, taken

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Speaker 1: responsibility for our own wellbeing. By doing that, we end

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Speaker 1: up creating healthier relationships for everyone involved, which I like.

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Speaker 1: I like that a lot. There's one more part of

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Speaker 1: the chat. I wanted to play you, but I do

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Speaker 1: need to take a break before we get there. If

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Speaker 1: you're looking for someone to watch over this break, that

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Speaker 1: is an American and maybe an Australian story that you

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Speaker 1: otherwise wouldn't hear, a reflection on what it is to

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Speaker 1: live in this country. Story Club is a live storytelling

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Speaker 1: comedy storytelling show that I run once a month here

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Speaker 1: in Sydney. I've been producing it for the last year

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Speaker 1: or so. It's been running for fifteen years or something,

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Speaker 1: sixteen actually, and I film every show and I'm putting

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Speaker 1: the stories up every week. So every week on the

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Speaker 1: YouTube there's a new story from story Club. They're about

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Speaker 1: ten to fifteen minutes long and there's only two rules.

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Speaker 1: The story has to be true in less than fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundred words. They're hilarious, they're insightful, you laugh, you cry.

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Speaker 1: It's well worth it. So for the link for the

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Speaker 1: YouTube and also tickets to the next live shows, you

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Speaker 1: can find them there in the show notes, which is

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Speaker 1: where you can also find how to buy both of

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Speaker 1: my books, my memoir Back after the Break and so

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Speaker 1: what now what both of them make fantastic gifts or

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Speaker 1: doorstops or whatever it is you want to use them

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Speaker 1: for linkers. In the show notes, we're back in a

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Speaker 1: moment with the one last chunk from doctor Hannah Carrell,

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Speaker 1: thinking about talking about really about neuroscience and talking about

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Speaker 1: the neuroscience behind relationships and how our brains influence the

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Speaker 1: behavior that we exhibit in those relationships. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the show. We're just catching up on a little

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Speaker 1: bit of an episode that I did a little while

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Speaker 1: ago with doctor Hannah Correll. The full episodes back in

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Speaker 1: the back in the podcast fore if you want to

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Speaker 1: scroll through, you can grab it there. But doctor Hannah

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Speaker 1: Correll her work centers on relationships and relationships are deeply

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Speaker 1: influenced by the way that our brains process experiences but

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Speaker 1: also emotions, and the neuroscience behind relationships is really interesting

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Speaker 1: and how understanding what our brain does in a relationship

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Speaker 1: can really help us make better to decisions within that relationship.

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Speaker 2: So neuropsychology is the combination of how your brain is working,

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Speaker 2: the neurotransmitters in your brain, the centers in your brain,

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Speaker 2: the emotional regulation centers in your brain, the neurobiology that

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Speaker 2: makes you the personality that you are, and the psychology,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know, the soul, the human the esoteric

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Speaker 2: question of who am I and why am I reacting

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Speaker 2: the way that I react based on my past experiences,

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Speaker 2: my traumas, my life history that has contributed to who

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Speaker 2: I am today.

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Speaker 1: So neuropsychology would be like, okay, so you're like, if

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Speaker 1: we think about my particular situations, like you're not producing

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Speaker 1: enough serotonin because of that, it's giving you this experience

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Speaker 1: of the world. You're reacting to the world in this

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Speaker 1: particular way and because of what's happened to in your past.

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Speaker 1: This is what that means to you, and now you

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Speaker 1: are creating a situation like is that kind of what

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Speaker 1: it's about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of, it's sort of You can do neuropsych

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Speaker 2: in a therapeutic fashion where we talk about the connection

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Speaker 2: between what your brain is doing and why are these

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Speaker 2: systems in your body, your sympathetic nervous system, your fighting

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Speaker 2: flight mode, your own unique brain functions, why are they

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Speaker 2: contributing to what's going on.

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Speaker 3: In your life.

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Speaker 2: I think societal norms, we call them norms, which are

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Speaker 2: the frameworks upon which we view our society. I think

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Speaker 2: that we are really wedded to some unhealthy expectations about

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Speaker 2: the individual, especially in Western society, this idea that as

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Speaker 2: an individual, you only have some worth if you are popular,

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Speaker 2: if you are wealthy, if you.

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Speaker 3: Have a partner, And this really entrenched fear that.

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Speaker 2: We have of being alone, being alone with your own thoughts,

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Speaker 2: being alone with your own emotions, and this relationship that

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Speaker 2: we have with our emotions, because you have a relationship

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Speaker 2: with your emotions, if you picture your emotions in your

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Speaker 2: own body for a second. Most of the time when

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Speaker 2: I tell people to picture your emotions in your body,

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Speaker 2: they imagine like maybe a black or a gray part

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Speaker 2: of themselves, which represents their anger, their fear, their crippling anxiety,

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Speaker 2: that feeling in the middle of the night or in

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Speaker 2: the evening where you're sitting on the couch and you

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Speaker 2: feel like you're falling apart and like you're totally alone.

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Speaker 3: And they hate that part of themselves.

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Speaker 2: They hate it, and their relationship with their feelings is

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Speaker 2: that I hate you, and I want you to disappear.

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Speaker 2: But in actual fact, those feelings were never there to

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Speaker 2: hurt you. They're there because they love you. They're there

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Speaker 2: because they will never ever give up on you. They

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Speaker 2: will always muck and flag to you when something is

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Speaker 2: wrong in your life to protect you, and they won't

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Speaker 2: stop for a second of a minute. They will not

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Speaker 2: stop because they love you so much that they will

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Speaker 2: not allow you to settle for the life that you

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Speaker 2: don't deserve. And what people kind of grow to feel

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Speaker 2: like is inappropriate is being sad, being anxious, sitting with

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Speaker 2: those feelings and talking with them, listening to them, telling

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Speaker 2: us and them, what is it that you need to

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Speaker 2: tell me about what's going on in my life?

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Speaker 3: It's not okay. And that involves being alone.

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Speaker 2: That involves sitting with yourself, That involves talking with yourself,

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Speaker 2: being your own best friend. As cliche it as that sound,

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Speaker 2: it's a cliche for a reason, because you need to

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Speaker 2: know what's going on in your heart. You need to

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Speaker 2: listen to your gut instinct about what's right for you,

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Speaker 2: what's wrong for you, and what's in your best interest

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Speaker 2: for the long term. And if you can't sit alone

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Speaker 2: with yourself and be okay with being alone. Then there

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Speaker 2: is a serious, serious problem because we cannot ever base

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Speaker 2: our happiness on things we can't control, and you cannot

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Speaker 2: control another person.

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Speaker 1: I really like the explanation there of the neuroscience behind

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Speaker 1: our relationships. I mean it's I mean, it's easier said

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Speaker 1: than done, but it's good to know it here in

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Speaker 1: a cold state, when you're not being challenged by someone

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Speaker 1: at work or one of your kids, or your partner

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Speaker 1: or whatever, what are your siblings parents? But afterwards, when

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Speaker 1: that's all go down, it's useful to be able to

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Speaker 1: process things. Knowing what Hannah's just talk about, Understanding how

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Speaker 1: our brains work can really help us take steps to

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Speaker 1: break free of unhealthy patterns and hopefully create more fulfilling relationships,

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Speaker 1: which is good not just for you, but for the

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Speaker 1: other people involved. She's such an insightful person, and I

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Speaker 1: thoroughly recommend listening to the full episode, which is back

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Speaker 1: in the podcast feed just scroll back to find it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening, Thanks for being a

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Speaker 1: part of it. I'll see you back here in a

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Speaker 1: couple of days. If you like the show, please share

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Speaker 1: it with someone like, follow, subscribe, rate, review. All those

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Speaker 1: things really help People Who podcast doesn't cost you a thing,

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Speaker 1: but it helps us make money and keep the lights

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Speaker 1: on and pay the people that work here. So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Have a lovely day.