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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer.

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Speaker 1: Today we're taking a close look at two very different

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Speaker 1: types of investors with your help of someone who works

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Speaker 1: with both. Ryan Phillips is head of BEURL Direct Advantage,

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Speaker 1: which is part of Bell Financial Group, a great supporter

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Speaker 1: of this podcast. He's spent twenty five years studying the

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Speaker 1: habits and strategies of day traders, and at the same

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Speaker 1: time he works with ultra wealthy, high net worth investors,

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Speaker 1: who I'm assuming have a pretty different approach to markets.

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Speaker 1: Remember this is general information only, and you should always

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Speaker 1: seek professional advice before making investment decisions. Ryan Phillips, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Sean, Thanks very much for having me unlock.

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Speaker 1: The mystery of day traders for me. Please you hear

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Speaker 1: so much about them. I think they're courageous folk. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they certainly are. So there's I guess there's two

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Speaker 2: types of investors. There's obviously the high net worth investors

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Speaker 2: that are looking to invest into the market with a

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Speaker 2: sort of a medium to long term strategy, and then

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Speaker 2: you also have the active day traders that make up

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Speaker 2: quite a large percentage of the trading volumes that occur

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Speaker 2: on the ASEX each day, and those particular types of clients,

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Speaker 2: the traders in particular, are quite interesting characters. They are,

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Speaker 2: I guess, the clients that are trading on momentum. Their

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Speaker 2: clients who looking for intra day movements and to make

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Speaker 2: short profits looking at each of those securities, whether it

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Speaker 2: be warrants or equities. But they are very much what

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Speaker 2: they call classify also as swing traders.

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Speaker 1: So there's a turn there. I just want you to define,

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Speaker 1: because everyone talks about momentum trading, it's basically just going

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Speaker 1: off what's happening, what has just happened? Is that right?

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Speaker 1: It is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So they're looking for opportunities where maybe a company

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Speaker 2: has just made an announcement or there's been a recent

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Speaker 2: surge in the share price. So they create themselves some

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Speaker 2: alert capability to try and identify those opportunit unities. And

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Speaker 2: when a stock has moved six or seven or ten

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Speaker 2: percent in a short span of time, then that opens

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Speaker 2: up an opportunity for those clients to trade based off

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Speaker 2: that momentum. So they're looking to, you know, to follow

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Speaker 2: the upward trend of a security and make sure term profits,

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Speaker 2: as I said along the way, So and they're using

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Speaker 2: various tools as well to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I want to ask, so day traders, it's

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Speaker 1: successful day traders, I presume actually have a strategy. They

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Speaker 1: don't just sit down at their desk and say what

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Speaker 1: am I going to do today? Presumably there's a lot

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Speaker 1: more to it than that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and there is, right, So that what they're

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Speaker 2: what they're looking for is is those alerts, those triggers

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Speaker 2: that occur in the market, and then they'll they will

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Speaker 2: trade off the back of that trigger. So you know,

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Speaker 2: they're there forever during the day scouring opportunities. So they're

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Speaker 2: looking for recent announcements, recent market movements, and then they

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Speaker 2: would use particular trading tools, like what we call advanced

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Speaker 2: order types to be able to take advantage of those orders.

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Speaker 2: So you'd be aware that there is there's two exchanges

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Speaker 2: in Australia at the moment. There's the AX and there's

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Speaker 2: also Cebo. So there's quite a lot of volume that

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Speaker 2: goes through both exchanges. But in particular, if you place

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Speaker 2: an order, for example, on Cebo, there may not be

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Speaker 2: as much volume as you see on the AX. So

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Speaker 2: these these active day traders are utilizing both exchanges to

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Speaker 2: get that competitive advantage to try and get that order priority,

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Speaker 2: and that's that's really important for these clients. There is

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Speaker 2: the speed to market and the order priority to get

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Speaker 2: their order executed first, to be then able to get

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Speaker 2: out in quick succession there shortly thereafter.

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Speaker 1: How much and we're staying with day traders will come

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Speaker 1: to high networth individuals at the moment. How much has

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Speaker 1: technology slash automation changed their world?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so over the years. So I think

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Speaker 2: one of the things is is that you know, we're

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Speaker 2: touching on the active advanced order types, but it's also

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Speaker 2: the market screening tools, and I think they're the types

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Speaker 2: of things that really gain the attraction of these clients

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Speaker 2: because for them to get that competitive advantage, they need

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Speaker 2: to know what's going on before anybody else, and so

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Speaker 2: in their mind it's about, Okay, how do I identify

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Speaker 2: the next opportunity. So the technology is advanced in terms

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Speaker 2: of being able to not only place your order, but

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Speaker 2: to actually find the opportunity. And then it's also having

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Speaker 2: access to some of these other tools such as algorithms

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Speaker 2: and things like that, so you can you can get

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Speaker 2: your order managed in a quicker fashion than your average

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Speaker 2: retail mom and dad investor.

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Speaker 1: And how many day traders are out there? There seems

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Speaker 1: to be a stack, But I wouldn't have a clue

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Speaker 1: whether we're talking one hundred or one hundred thousand, to

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Speaker 1: be honest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's what when we look at day traders

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Speaker 2: in the market, you're looking at I think, forgiven me

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Speaker 2: if I don't have the correct stats, but there's something

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Speaker 2: like sixty thousand active day traders who are trading multiple

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Speaker 2: times a day, every day of the year. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's quite a large amount.

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Speaker 1: And are they is it mostly equities or is it derivatives?

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Speaker 1: What are they trade?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've got a combination of clients who trade

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Speaker 2: equities as well as derivatives, as well as CfDS. But

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Speaker 2: in the space that I've always looked after is virtually

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Speaker 2: the equities and the warrants space. Now now you've got

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Speaker 2: clients who day trade options as well, so exchange traded options.

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Speaker 2: But I think you'll find that that's quite a smaller

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Speaker 2: sample size in terms of CfDS and options. But in

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Speaker 2: the equities space that that would make up, i'd say

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Speaker 2: about ninety percent of that sixty thousand in terms of

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Speaker 2: day traders.

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Speaker 1: And many of them are successful.

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Speaker 2: I presume, yeah, quite a lot are. You do tend

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Speaker 2: to find some clients that have become success stories overnight

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Speaker 2: don't tend to stick around year after year. But you

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Speaker 2: do find that in some of the clients that I've

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Speaker 2: been looking after for the last twenty years, as I said,

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Speaker 2: have still been with me for twenty years later, and

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Speaker 2: they're the ones that are quite disciplined, so they don't

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Speaker 2: steer away from their strategy. And I think that's the

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Speaker 2: trick here, is that you've got when you've got a strategy,

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Speaker 2: you don't try and steer away from it and try

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Speaker 2: something different because you fall in love with the stop

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Speaker 2: for example, you need to be quite setting your ways.

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Speaker 1: Ryan, stay with me. We'll take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: come back and talk about high net worth investors. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back in a moment. I'm talking to Ryan Phillips,

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Speaker 1: head of Bell Direct Advantage. We've talked plenty about day traders.

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Speaker 1: High network investors are a very different beast, and there's

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Speaker 1: probably a bit rude calling them a boast. You've spent

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Speaker 1: much of your career working with your ultra wealthy first

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Speaker 1: comsech and Bell direct advantage. How do they trade?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so high networth clients are very much reliant upon

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Speaker 2: your service. So a lot of the high net worth

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Speaker 2: clients they have I guess a longer time horizon and

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Speaker 2: research is quite important to this segment, so they do

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Speaker 2: a lot more research than your average clients. We tend

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Speaker 2: to find that they're not just researching and looking at

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Speaker 2: research reports from different financial institutions, but they're also trying

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Speaker 2: to speak with the companies directly. They would like to

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Speaker 2: speak with an analyst directly, so their needs are quite

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Speaker 2: different as well as there the way of investing as well.

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Speaker 2: So when they are placing orders, they generally are larger

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Speaker 2: in size, so it's important for them to be able

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Speaker 2: to have access to somebody who can manage the order

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Speaker 2: for them in the market. What you generally see is

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Speaker 2: that these clients would call through an order it may

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Speaker 2: be in the millions of dollars, and instead of putting

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Speaker 2: it in in one large line into the market, which

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Speaker 2: could potentially spook the market, we would actually manage the

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Speaker 2: order throughout the day and over the course of the day,

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Speaker 2: whether it's using algorithms or actually managing the order ourselves.

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Speaker 2: That's really really important to these clients because otherwise, if

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Speaker 2: you're placing an order for five thousand units in CSL,

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Speaker 2: the only way to really manage that order is to

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Speaker 2: feed it in dribs and drabs.

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Speaker 1: Are they buying a different types of equities or asset

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Speaker 1: classes than day traders, for example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so. So the average day trader is

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Speaker 2: looking for the security that's trading more in the sense

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Speaker 2: usually growth companies that aren't necessarily profitable, because they're looking

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Speaker 2: for that larger intra day movement. Whereas the ultra high

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Speaker 2: network clients, they are looking at more at your blue

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Speaker 2: chip securities. And some of the securities that we've seen

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Speaker 2: over the last twelve months that have all seemed to

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Speaker 2: do quite well are the likes of your Promedicus, your

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Speaker 2: tear Links, your jbhigh Fire, your three sixty. These are

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Speaker 2: companies that have been trading at the fifty two week high.

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Speaker 2: They're all generating revenue, and these are the types of

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Speaker 2: securities that our clients, especially the ultra high network clients,

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Speaker 2: are looking to invest in more secure a mix of

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Speaker 2: growth as well as yield. That tends to be the

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Speaker 2: theme over the last several years.

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Speaker 1: With high net worth individuals, do they say, we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about equities here, What about other as class has

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Speaker 1: been private equity or the bonds or infrastructure, real assets,

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Speaker 1: those types of things. It seems to me, when you

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Speaker 1: have more time to consider it, you're kind of more

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Speaker 1: likely to get into it. But maybe I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: No, No, you're right, And I think hybrids has been

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Speaker 2: one of the assets that these highwidth clients have invested

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Speaker 2: in over recent years. Now with the hybrids winding down,

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Speaker 2: they are looking for an alternative asset, So that'll be

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Speaker 2: interesting to see what comes of that, whether it's government bonds.

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Speaker 2: Private equity has seen an increase and we've seen some

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Speaker 2: good results from private equity firms over the last couple

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Speaker 2: of years, and we have seen an increase in clients

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Speaker 2: moving away from part of their investments into equities into

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Speaker 2: private equity. And we've seen quite a bit over recent

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Speaker 2: times into private credit as well. So there's been a

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Speaker 2: large inflow of money into private credit with some of

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Speaker 2: the banks not entering that particular asset class anymore.

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Speaker 1: I suppose that's the thing. With day traders or high

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Speaker 1: networth individuals, you probably still find trends, so private credit

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Speaker 1: being a great example where it's almost the favor of

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Speaker 1: the year, and so people jump into it and no

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Speaker 1: value judgment of that that it's good or bad. It's

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Speaker 1: just what they're all thinking.

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Speaker 2: About, that's right. Yeah, And as people are talking about it,

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Speaker 2: the media is talking about it, they feel that they

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Speaker 2: probably they should be invested in it. And I think

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Speaker 2: the same thing goes with cryptocurrency. So with bitcoin for example,

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Speaker 2: So as more and more people talk about it, and

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Speaker 2: when you open the CNBC app, for example, there's now

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Speaker 2: a dedicated section for bitcoin and ethereum. So when you

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Speaker 2: have high network clients looking at these sources of information

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Speaker 2: and they're seeing that particular asset class, they feel that

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Speaker 2: maybe they should be invested in it. And we're seeing

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Speaker 2: more people investing into those particular assets, albeit small amounts,

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Speaker 2: just to get started because there's still some concern around

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Speaker 2: some of those assets. We are seeing a shift away

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Speaker 2: from some clients entering just into equities.

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Speaker 1: A fun job. You got looking at the you know

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Speaker 1: where people are investing it is?

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Speaker 2: It is there. I mean, it's never a dull moment.

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Speaker 2: It's a very interesting profession. And every day you see

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Speaker 2: something different, and you're speaking to all sorts of people

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Speaker 2: from all all walks of life as well. So there's

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Speaker 2: some people that you know, they're sitting there at home

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Speaker 2: and they're in their pajamas. Some of the day traders

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Speaker 2: and you know they're up at seven o'clock in the

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Speaker 2: morning looking at the markets. And then you're speaking to

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Speaker 2: clients that are on the other side of the world.

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Speaker 2: And I had a conversation just recently with a client

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Speaker 2: that's on a fast, fast speed train in China right

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Speaker 2: sending me photos training from the you know, from from

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Speaker 2: from from China, and it's it's quite it's quite interesting

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Speaker 2: and enjoyable. But yeah, it's I've been doing for twenty

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Speaker 2: five years and couldn't think of doing anything different.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic, Ryan, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much.

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Speaker 1: That is Ryan Phillips, head of Bell Direct Advantage, which

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Speaker 1: is a great supporter of this podcast. This is the

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Speaker 1: Fear and Greed Business Interview. Remember this is general information only,

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Speaker 1: and you should always seek professional advice before investing. Join

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Speaker 1: us every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 1: Daily business news for people who make our own decisions.

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Speaker 1: I'm sho al ma' Shollyday,