1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: people of the Eur Nation. 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Real Story with Joe Hildebrand 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 2: and another special guest. Yes, we've got a very special episode. 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: This week we have an exclusive interview with the Prime 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: Minister Anthony Albanzi and he joins us in the studio 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: right now. Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi, Welcome to the show. 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 3: How are you pretty good, Joe. 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: It's a long campaign though, and of course there's many 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: days to go. 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 2: Well, let's get deeper, meaningful, let's get profound. Let's leave 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: all the sort of policy detail to one side for 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 2: one second. Biggest story that we obviously is Pope Francis dying. 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 2: I know you don't like talking about your faith. It's 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: a very private matter for you. But given what's happened, 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: I think like you. I was raised a Catholic and 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: then sort of drifted away in my youth and then 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 2: came back to it later on. I know that you've 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: started going to Mass when you can do. What does 20 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: faith mean to you and what did the Pope and 21 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 2: his dying mean to you? This week? How did you 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: respond some advice I suppose on a personal level. 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: Well, the Holy Father hadn't been well, but he had 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: recovered for Easter, and so it still came as a shock, 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: even in spite of his age and his recent illness, 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: and so it did have a profound impact. I think 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: it would have had that impact not just on the 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: more than a being Catholics around the world, but Pope 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: Francis was recognized for his leadership across the faiths and 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: from people who don't have any particular religious faith. Also 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: for his compassion, his kindness, his dignity, the way that 32 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: he cared about the poor, he cared about working people, 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: he cared about the natural environment and was prepared to 34 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: speak out on those issues. He certainly modernized the Catholic Church, 35 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: and I think he will go down as one of 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: the most consequential leaders of this century. He was a 37 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: source of inspiration he because of his social justice commitment 38 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: that he had, the way that he led his life, 39 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: as well, the dismissal of some of the trappings trappings 40 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,559 Speaker 1: as a called of office. 41 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: We should say famously he took when he was a 42 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: priest and the bishop. 43 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: To the bus. 44 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: He assumed the papal limousine that was on offer for 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: a small little runabout that he used to get about 46 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: run I mean, wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't live in the papal apartments. Instead, 47 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: chose a very small sort of dorm style. 48 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: Like last last year when he traveled to the region 49 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: including Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, tim or less ste in 50 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: Papua New Guinea, we received a request through Prime Minister 51 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: Marape and also through the Vatican. He wanted to visit 52 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: a highlands village. Now it's pretty difficult to get into 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: some of those remote communities, even more difficulties again, so 54 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: we sent an air force, not the most salubrius of 55 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: aircraft up there, one of those troop carrier essentially, so 56 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: that the the Holy Father got wheeled up in his 57 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: chair up into the back. 58 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: Of the plane the ramp and like a cargo plane thing. 59 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, essentially is what it is normally. 60 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: You know, I've traveled in a remote indigenous communities in 61 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: those aircraft and you're strapped on the. 62 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: Side like something out of a movie. 63 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: And the fact that the Pope, in spite of his 64 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: age and his health issues that he had, was so 65 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: determined to visit this village in the highlands of Papua 66 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: New Guinea was just extraordinary and that's the sort of 67 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: person that he was. 68 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: In the way that he lived his life. 69 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: He encouraged students and people to come back to the 70 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: Vatican and to visit Rome. He was someone who really 71 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: made a profound impact on people his writings. I've read 72 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: a range of his writings as well, everything from climate 73 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: change to the rights of working men and women, to 74 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: the need to tackle poverty and disadvantage, to speaking. 75 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 3: Out about greed. 76 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: He was someone who was very outspoken. He came up 77 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: against challenges, of course in some of the previous orthodoxies 78 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: of the Church and was prepared to argue his case. 79 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: He was someone who was so well respected and his 80 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: passing will be mourned by so many people around the world, 81 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: not the least of which is here in Australia. I 82 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: went to Saint Patrick's Cathedral in Melbourne and they opened 83 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: up the churches normally closed at night, and in the 84 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: time that I was there, many people were just coming as. 85 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: A natural inset. 86 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: So this is on Monday night. 87 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: To come that tried on Monday night and then Tuesday 88 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: morning the church service at seven am was certainly I 89 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: assume much more crowded than it normally would be because Catholics, well, 90 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 1: people want to pay their respects to the Holy Father. 91 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: And do you think do you need an element of 92 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: faith or something? I suppose a third dimension to be 93 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: a good leader, a strong leader. What sort of what 94 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 2: guides you when you're sort of wrestling with big decisions. 95 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: Be it about you know, tackling poverty, be it about 96 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: threats to national security? What sort of what core do 97 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: you go to? 98 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: Well, we're a secular state and that's important. So I 99 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: don't think people need any particular religious faith. What they 100 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: do need, though, is a core set of values. And 101 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: the values that I was raised with are the values 102 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: that my mother instilled in me, firstly, but also the St. 103 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: Joseph's nuns there at Campown and then at Saint Mary's 104 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: Cathedral where I was there from year five to year twelve. 105 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: Those values and thinking about others. We went out there 106 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: and did charity work at semnseta ball and helped at 107 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: Matthew Talbot Hostel down there in Wallameloo, and engaged in 108 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: thinking of others. And that's something that stays with you, 109 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: those values. People in positions of privilege, which I certainly 110 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: am now have to know our place that everyone isn't 111 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: in that situation. People are doing it tough. It's one 112 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: of the things that has guided me in some of 113 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: the policy measures that we've done to increase around assistance 114 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: to support public housing being built, to support various cost 115 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: of living measures to take some of that pressure off 116 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: as well. So I think those values that you have 117 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: are really important. You need to have a foundation of 118 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: what you're doing, and my foundation is very much centered 119 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: on that social justice principles that I was raised with. 120 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 2: What's this sounds like a sort of I suppose glib question, 121 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: but what's it like to be Prime minister? You live 122 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: in a very sort of by necessity almost do you 123 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: live in a very highly curated, cloistered kind of environment. 124 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 2: You have a security detail with you all the time, 125 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: You have a diary that is managed so that every 126 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: second of every day is accounted for. How do you 127 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: stay in touch with normal people and get a sense 128 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: of what is happening and what the feeling is the community? 129 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: How do you channel that when by definition, as you say, 130 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: you're living in this kind of bubble. 131 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: Well, the first point I think is you've got to 132 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: recognize that you are in a position of privilege, and 133 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: I certainly recognize that as well. The idea growing up 134 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: not far from here on Pimont Bridge Road from where 135 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: we're speaking today, you would have got extraordinary odds if 136 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: someone had said I'd be doing this interview as Prime 137 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: Minister of Australia today. 138 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 3: So that's the first thing. 139 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: Secondly is I think it's really important for me to 140 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: have people around me who I grew up with, the 141 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: people who I grew up with as proud houses in Campdown. 142 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: So I told the story before, but it's one that 143 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: will stay with me till my last days. Of being 144 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: at the War Memorial the night before the first sitting 145 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: of Parliament in twenty twenty two, and getting a text 146 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: message from a friend of mine, Cherie, who I grew 147 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: up with, who'd taken a photo of me speaking at 148 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: the War Memorial, and finding out the eight of my 149 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: friends who I grew up with, including Clayton, had come 150 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: from Freo has worked on the. 151 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 3: Wolves over there. 152 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: He traveled around Australia, became a wharf and stayed in 153 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: Freo and has raised his family there. Wendy from now 154 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: living in Melbourne. People had come from all around to 155 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: see their mate who they grew up with and who 156 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: they played footy with, and all of them went to 157 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: the local schools and lived in that very close knit community. 158 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: They all traveled to Canberra without telling me. They just 159 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: organized it. So I had them at the Lord So 160 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: the first night there after Pope Francis after that. It 161 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: was fantastic. And so I went to a sixtieth birthday 162 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: of Shari upstairs at the Camperdown Hotel and they had 163 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: all sorts of beer, you know, Rasha's and ties. Now 164 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: it's a very different I probably had two years old 165 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: as well, but very different place these days. But for 166 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: her sixtieth upstairs, I can't believe what a great job 167 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: her son, who is Ben, who's in his early forties, 168 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: I guess too. 169 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: Probably he organized. All these people. 170 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: From who we grew up with in Campdown were all there. 171 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: And Jodie was with me that night, and I just 172 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: said to her that, ye know, this is why I 173 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: do what I do. Like these people sold of the earth, people, 174 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: battlers but proud of who they are, all helping each 175 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: other out. Just good working class people who need a 176 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: labor government. You know, that's the difference for some people 177 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: for a lot of people who are in the Green's 178 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: political party or some of the fringe groups. For them, 179 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: it's an academic exercise. Who wins government for so many 180 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: people who I really care about and I want to represent. 181 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: For me, keeping in touch is about that physical keeping 182 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: in touch literally as well makes the difference. 183 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: And I want to ask you about that, because there is, 184 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: and I suppose there always has been, but we're seeing it. 185 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 2: I think more in the age of social media, a 186 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: schism in sort of the left of politics, but also 187 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 2: on the right of you know, that normal mainstream kind 188 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: of center left of center right, community focused sort of 189 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 2: politics and real sort of ideological extremism importing. Other causes 190 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 2: are the conflicts from overseas or even just you know, 191 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: ideological concepts from off campuses that don't really have that 192 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: mainstream connection to ordinary people's lives. How worried are you 193 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: about things like the conflict in Palestine being imported into Australia, 194 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: be it via the Greens, be it via the Muslim 195 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: votes movements that are targeting labor MPs in Southwest Sydney. 196 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 2: Do you worry about this destabilizing and introducing conflict or 197 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: sectarianism or whatever it may be in Australia society. 198 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: I worry about polarization in our political system in all 199 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: of its forms. 200 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 3: And. 201 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: I worry that more and more shouting at each other. 202 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,599 Speaker 1: Before the last campaigners say people had conflict fatigue, and 203 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: I do think that they did, and that's probably because 204 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: of the Middle East issue in particular that's been exacerbated 205 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: in recent times. I think a majority of Australians want 206 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: two things when it comes to those issues. One, they 207 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: want people to just stop. They want to cease fire. 208 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: They want people to live in peace and security. They 209 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: know this is a conflict that's gone on for a 210 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: long period of time and they want to see it resolved. 211 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: People don't want innocent people to be killed, whether they 212 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: be Israeli or Palestinian or Lebanese, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Muslim. 213 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: They just want it to stop. Secondly, they don't want 214 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: conflict brought here. They know we're not participants in this conflict, 215 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: and some people have tried to portray us as participants 216 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: and we're just not. 217 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: So that fake news going on round about Australia providing weapons, 218 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: it's just nonsense, absolute, absolute fabrication, and yet it seems 219 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: to be getting. 220 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 3: Traction indeed, and it's just not true. 221 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: And it is extraordinary that people have been prepared to 222 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: say things that they know are not true in order 223 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:26,479 Speaker 1: to secure some political advantage. The Palestinians have a legitimate 224 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: aspiration for their own state. It's one I support side 225 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: by side with the right of Israel to exist in 226 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: peace and security. Now how that causes advanced by blockading 227 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: on Marracle Road is beyond me. 228 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: And this is your electorate office Ingrainland, the same electorate 229 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: in the inner west of Sydney, your staff, your office 230 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: effectively had to be shut because your staff did not 231 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: feel safe. People do not feel safe to approach the office. 232 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: And I've also had it was incredibly alienating of people 233 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: and counterproductive. 234 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: And people. 235 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: Should be able to advocate for a cause in our 236 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: democracy by all means, but do so in a way 237 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: that is respectful, because that's how you build social cohesion. 238 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: And one of the things about our great country Australia 239 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: is overwhelmingly people live side by side in harmony. People 240 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: of different faiths, different backgrounds, different ethnicities come to Australia 241 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: because we are the land of hope and we need 242 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: to hold onto that that's part of my pitch at 243 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: citizenship ceremonies is that we can be a microcosm for 244 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: the world that shows that people of Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, 245 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: Buddhist Orthodox can all live side by side and be 246 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: enriched by our diversity. 247 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: Obviously, we all know that Labor and the Greens effectively. 248 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: You know, Labor relies on Green's preferences in much same 249 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: way that the coalition well as a coalition of the 250 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: Liberal and the National parties, and they often rely on 251 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: one nation preferences. Do you envisit your day when Labor 252 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: will be able to run in elections without even having 253 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 2: to do any preference deals with the Greens. I know 254 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: there's moves by the party to form a relationship with 255 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: the Legalized Cannabis Party ahead of the Greens, as we 256 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 2: flagged on this podcast weeks ago. Will Labor ever be 257 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: able to sort of shake off that Green will hinge 258 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: to it importantly? 259 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 3: Of course overwhelmingly. 260 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: Mostly do people vote number one for the ALP candidate 261 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: and then number all the boxes. As long as it's 262 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: numbering all the boxes in order two, three, four, footy six, etc. 263 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: Then it's a formal vote like the preferences aren't countered 264 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: from the Labor Party. People who vote for minor parties 265 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: in our compulse through preferential system do get to determine 266 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 1: where their preferences go. And some people follow are how 267 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: to vote, but not everyone does. I'm a strong advocate 268 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: for people voting for a major political party funnily enough, 269 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: but I respect people's democratic rights to determine what they 270 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: want to do. I would I would caution this. There 271 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: are many people at the last election who voted for 272 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: Greens candates in Brisbane, for example, thinking that that was 273 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: a way of from their perspective, making labor do certain 274 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: things do more to put it that way as they 275 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: would see it. The problem is that the Greens have 276 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: used their political power to actually block labor doing things, 277 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: and the best example of that is housing. I mean 278 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: our Housing Australia Future Fund was there to build public housing, 279 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: including four thousand homes reserved for women and children escaping 280 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: domestic violence. Now, the noolition, as I called it, of 281 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: the Greens, the Liberals and the Nationals teamed up not 282 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: just to vote against it, but what they kept doing 283 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: was voting it that it could not be considered for 284 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: months at a time kicking the can down the road, 285 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: and that has meant there's a delay in housing supply. 286 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: It's as simple as that. In the end it went through, 287 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: like our help to Buy scheme to help people in 288 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: a home ownership went through, but only went through in December, 289 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: so no one's been assisted because it takes then there's 290 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: a delay obviously months to get the program in place 291 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: after the legislation is carried. 292 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: So, given that the Greens are so obstructionist, and given 293 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: that most of the Greens votes will come back to 294 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: Labor anyway, what is to stop Labor from doing what 295 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: Josh Burns has just done in McNamara and just having 296 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: an open ticket and saying just vote Labor and then 297 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: do what you want. I'm not going to recommend a 298 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: vote for the Greens, would they not? I mean they're 299 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: not going to vote for the coalition ahead of Labor. 300 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: I mean eight of them, well, the organizational wing. 301 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 3: Look after all of that, I'm way past that. 302 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: Thank goodness. So there's a range of meetings, decisions are made. 303 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I've got to say that the Liberal Party 304 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: and the National Party by definition are a coalition. 305 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 2: That's right. 306 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: They're not even trying to pretend that they're in government. 307 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: Greens preference does give them an avenue to say, see 308 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 2: labors in bed with you. 309 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's all But that's because they're more obsessed 310 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: by it, and all they do is give the Greens 311 00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: more publicity. Frankly, the truth is that I've said very 312 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: clearly we won't be entering into deals post election. People 313 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: will have a choice if we don't get to seventy six. 314 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: But I believe very firmly that we can and we'll 315 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: get to seventy six seats. So I think people do 316 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: want a majority government. It's very clear that only labor 317 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: can be by definition, in a position to form a 318 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: majority government. We're not part of coalition. 319 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: Tell me. Obviously, there's been a couple of sort of 320 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 2: security scares or not, depending on who you believe in 321 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 2: this campaign, and shortly before it we had the Chinese 322 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 2: ship the circumnavigating Australia. We had the prospect raised of 323 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: a Russian request to Indonesia for use of a military 324 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: base on Papua. How does that weigh on you you 325 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 2: find out about something like that, when you find out 326 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 2: there are reports of a Chinese ship off the coast 327 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: or the Russians may be wanting to build up their 328 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 2: presence in the region. Do you have a sort of 329 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 2: set of first principles that you go to when it 330 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: comes to responding to that. How do you go about that? 331 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: The good news is that our intelligence agencies do a 332 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: pretty good job. So there are sometimes we don't talk 333 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: about all of the detail, but the briefings are very 334 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 1: good that we receive, and the advice that we receive 335 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: is very good, and the relationships that we're built are 336 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: positive as well. So with Indonesia, for example, we have 337 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: built a very strong relationship with President Puboo, with the 338 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: Foreign Minister, with the Defense Minister, with their respective counterparts 339 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: as well. So we're able to talk honestly and deliberately 340 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: and to have a calibrated response. What's important isn't that 341 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: you shout with a megaphone out there. That's not the 342 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: way that diplomacy works. Australia is a middle power. We 343 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: are respected and we respond appropriately and that is what 344 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: we continue to do. I think that my government's record, 345 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: particularly with outstanding Big three Penny Wong and Foreign Affairs, 346 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: Richard Marles in defense and Don Farrell in trade, really 347 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: have developed a network across Asian countries to our North 348 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: countries like Indonesia and Malaysia and Vietnam, and all of 349 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: those countries with our North Asian trading partners Japan and Korea, 350 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: as well as of course with the US, UK and 351 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: with emerging powers like India. Australia has had really improved relationship. 352 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: I've visited India twice. Prime Minister Modi has visited here. 353 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: The relationship with P and G and the Pacific has 354 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: never been stronger. And not responding to I mean, frankly, 355 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: the idea of a Russian base in West Papua. You know, 356 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: you can respond by being trying to ramp it up, 357 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: dial it up to eleven. All that will do is 358 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: alienate our friends in Indonesia, who responded very clearly by 359 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: saying this isn't happening. And you've got to also not 360 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: swing at every socer ball. And the Russians, of course 361 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: want to. 362 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: Talk themselves up. 363 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: They're in a war with Ukraine, you know, to swing 364 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: at that socer ball, and then you have things such 365 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: as that. 366 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 2: You know, the. 367 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: Russian ambassador to Indonesia says, Russia wants more. 368 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 2: Well. 369 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: Of course they do as their job to talk themselves up, 370 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:07,239 Speaker 1: but frankly, they're an authoritarian regime who have lost an 371 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: enormous amount of their own population in this brutal, illegal 372 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: war that they're engaged in. A whole lot of Russians 373 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: have left Russia so as to not get enlisted in 374 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: that war, and I think that Putin is facing some 375 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: internal issues as well. You can't respond by almost believing 376 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: everything that regime like Russia says is extraordinary. 377 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: It's almost cartoon issues. 378 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 3: Yes, indeed. 379 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: And one of the things you don't do is do 380 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: what Peter Dutton did, which is to verbal the President 381 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: of Indonesia and say that he had made a statement 382 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: when there was no statement made, not by him, not 383 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: by the Foreign Minister, not by Defense minister, not by 384 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: anyone of significance in Indonesia. Because it was on the internet. 385 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: That's well, it was on the internet. 386 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: Speaking of authoritarian regimes, obviously, the big question of the 387 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: twenty first century is China. It's nowhere is it bigger 388 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: or more important than for Australia. They're a number one 389 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: trading partner. They are also increasingly belligerent and expansionist. How 390 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 2: do we answer the China question long term? Obviously we 391 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: need them for trade, we need them for our own 392 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: economic prosperity. But they are you know, they have clear, 393 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: undisguised ambitions to be the unrivaled global superpower. America is 394 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: obviously in a period of deep instability or even if 395 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 2: you don't want to call it that, retreating into American exceptionalism. 396 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: In America, first policy isolationism that gives China the space 397 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 2: to write that makes Australia obviously incredibly vulnerable to China 398 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: at the same time as being enormously dependent on it. 399 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: How do we position ourselves so we don't get screwed 400 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: by China strategically or economically. 401 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: Firstly, by engaging. We need to recognize there is strategic 402 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: competition in the region. So what I say is, will 403 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: cooperate where we can, we'll disagree where we must, and 404 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: we'll engage in our national interest. We do have a 405 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: different political system based upon different values that we have. 406 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: We are democracy, they are not, and that changes the 407 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: dynamic over the region and the way that we impact 408 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: on the region. One of my concerns I have about 409 00:27:51,920 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: the US becoming more concerned about their domestic issues and 410 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: we're drawing from some of the leadership that they've shown 411 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 1: in the post World War two era in particular, is 412 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: that it will leave a gap which others will seek 413 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: to fill. 414 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 3: So the withdrawal from AID we will have an impact. 415 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: The withdrawal from the Paris Agreement for Pacific Island states. 416 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 3: This is not academic. 417 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: This is something that they regard as an entry fee 418 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: to credibility, and so that is important. 419 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: The other big question, of course, is how do we 420 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 2: navigate Trump. Do you think America under Trump two point 421 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: zero is you know, are there still some kind of 422 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: norms buried within the national structure where it will start 423 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: behaving normally again, or do you think it will just 424 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: do things completely differently and unprecedentedly, like you know, pulling 425 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: out of Nate or like you know, continuing with it. 426 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: What is it one hundred and forty five percent tariff 427 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: on China? I think it's up to now. 428 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: Well, the United States is of course our most important 429 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: ally and historically they've played a critical role in the 430 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: global world order. 431 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: They continue to do and. 432 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: Well, there is no doubt that the second Trump administration 433 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: is very different from the first. So the first people 434 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: speak about the exemptions to the tariffs's lots of countries 435 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: got exemptions to the tariffs in the first it wasn't just. 436 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 3: Australia this time around. 437 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: The tariffs are an active economic self harm. They are 438 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: already having an impact on the US inflation, on employment, 439 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: on the state of their economy, on stock markets, and 440 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: that's having an impact, it must be said, on our 441 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: share prices and therefore on people super balances as well. 442 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: I think that the US system, though is so big, 443 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: there will be there's some counterbalances there as well. What 444 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: we're continuing to do is just engage constructively at this stage. 445 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: Take our beef exports. I spoke to some producers there 446 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: up in Queensland and what has occurred already because of 447 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: the US China trade barriers which are there. There's tariffs 448 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: on our beef exports to the US, but the US 449 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: the Chinese market has just gone wushka through the roof, 450 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: and so you know these things. 451 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 3: Australia is. 452 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: I think, as well positioned as any country in the 453 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: world to deal with some of the disruption, and that's 454 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: what it is that's occurring in the global trading system 455 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: because we have put in that effort with our as 456 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: you are neighbors with India, with Europe, with other countries 457 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: as well. We've diversified our trade and so we'll continue 458 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: though to see how it plays out, will continue to 459 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: respond in a mature, orderly way. 460 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: Is what is important. 461 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: You're a very confident person. Even when labor and your 462 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: government was dipping in the polls, you were always confident 463 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: that you would recover, even as others within the government 464 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 2: and the party were starting to have real sort of concerns, worries, 465 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: perhaps doubts. I'm supposed to be a politician. You need 466 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: a leathery high at the of times. But to be 467 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: a PM, do you need to just have that steely 468 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: confidence and tell yourself that everything is going to be 469 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: okay because the alternative is unthinkable? Or are you just 470 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 2: an incredibly optimistic guy? 471 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: Well, one is I am an optimistic guy. I think 472 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: that history does move forward in a positive way. I 473 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: think that often people who would describe themselves as progressives 474 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: well often romanticize the past. For example, I have people 475 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: say to me, oh, the low PARTI is not. 476 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 3: What it used to be, and I go, yeah, that's right. 477 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: Now, We've got fifty percent women now, we no longer 478 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: support the wide Australian policy, and we're doing a whole 479 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: range of things that in the past wasn't the case. 480 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: And you know, I have. 481 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: Always been positive about our prospects because I think we've 482 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: been a good government. There's nowhere in the world you 483 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: would rather have been in Australia in the context of 484 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: it's been a pretty tough time. 485 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 3: With global inflation. That's just the truth. 486 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: But we've dealt with it in a realistic, pragmatic way, 487 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: and we've got a plan going forward. And I've known 488 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: what the plan was to roll out. I know the 489 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: timetable in which it would roll out, and the other 490 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: side also, I know what I had to do as 491 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: opposition leader. And I look at the opposition, I see 492 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: no cost of policies during budget replies. I see no 493 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: big speeches, no addresses to the National Press Club. They 494 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 1: haven't done the hard work. They have promoted grievances and 495 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: tried to tap in their sure but that's the easy job. 496 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: You need an alternative and what they've got is six 497 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars nuclear power plants, twenty thousand dollars for 498 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: free lunch for bosses. 499 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 3: And cuts. 500 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it is extraordinary that at this election on 501 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: the third of May on the ballot paper will essentially 502 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: be tax cuts from the Labor Party and not just 503 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: opposition to them, but they are actually going to elections 504 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: saying they will increase the income tax of all fourteen 505 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: million Australians. And that's before the cuts to education and 506 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 1: health and other services I started. 507 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 2: I must say, I think opposing for a coalition to 508 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: go to an election opposing tax cuts is something I 509 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: did not think I would see. 510 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't on the Bingo card. 511 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 1: It probably wasn't on the Bradfield Liberal Party FBEC Bingo 512 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: card either, because it's just something that is extraordinary. 513 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: One of the big things you did just recently earlier 514 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 2: this year was bringing these changes to social media laws 515 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 2: and restricting social media for children. And this is something 516 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 2: that has a huge impact, and I think it's going 517 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 2: to have an even greater impact. We know the damage 518 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 2: that it does now, we know how it distracts kids 519 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,959 Speaker 2: at school. It's been banned in schools in New South 520 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 2: Wales and will be all over the country very shortly. 521 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: You know, how do you cope with sort of just 522 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 2: the barrage and politicians of all sides get it and 523 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 2: I know that you've had to step in sometimes when 524 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 2: the Labor Party has been too cruel to Peter Dutton, 525 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: But how did you just cope with that stuff? Because 526 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 2: there must be times when it gets to you and 527 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 2: you just think, oh, for the love of God. 528 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: Don't read the comments. Don't read the comments. That's the 529 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: first thing I used to when I was less busy. 530 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:42,720 Speaker 3: I would ring. 531 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: People who'd send these quite extraordinary emails sometimes and when 532 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: you'd ring people and they go all of a sudden, 533 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: very polite when you actually talk to them, because people, 534 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: I think, through messaging in whatever form, will say things 535 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 1: they'd never say to your face or even over the phone. 536 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 3: And I think that's a real problem. 537 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: It is something we need to have a debate about. 538 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: And before we did the social media ban, I spoke 539 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: with parents who'd lost loved ones who'd been bullied. And 540 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: no parents should lose a child, and losing them in 541 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: those circumstances requires a response from the state, essentially from government, 542 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: and we don't pretend that what we're doing will mean 543 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: no child ever gets to look at social media. Just 544 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: like we ban alcohol for under eighteen, Chances are last 545 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: Saturday night there would have been a seventeen year old 546 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: somewhere got a beer. But what it does is it 547 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: sets society's values forward as well. That's so important. I 548 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: have had the to watch Adolescence. I don't know if 549 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: you've about it watched it. It is so powerful. I 550 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: mean this family where I'm not giving up the storyline 551 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: here spoiler alert, but you know, their their young son, 552 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: who they love dearly as people do. Their child engages 553 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: in a crime that is horrific, is beyond belief for them, and. 554 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 3: They don't know about it. And you know it. 555 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: People are entitled to think that someone in their bedroom 556 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: by themselves is safe, and what we know is that 557 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: social media can mean that they're not safe, and that, 558 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, the impact of it is severe. I want 559 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: I want kids to be out there playing footy and 560 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: netball and tennis and swimming and whatever and talking to 561 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: each other and engaging with each other. Now, human interaction 562 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: is so important and we can't afford to lose those 563 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: social skills. 564 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 2: And we obviously see a lot of that happening in 565 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 2: the US. And I am not a kind of crazy 566 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 2: you know, Trump derangement syndrome guy, because on top of that, 567 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 2: you've got basically the people who wear bison's heads as 568 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 2: helmets running around the Capitol. But you've also got a 569 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 2: whole bunch of ordinary working people who just feel like 570 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 2: they've been left behind by the establishment, by the system. 571 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 2: And I think that that becomes even more profound when 572 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 2: you know when parties, center left parties that used to 573 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 2: represent working people, blue collar people are seen to have 574 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 2: been co opted by upper middle class, white collar you know, 575 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 2: tertiary educated, you know, elite sort of lefties without resulting 576 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 2: the cliche. How worried are you about that happening in 577 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 2: Australia and how conscious of you are you are ensuring 578 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: that labor remains a part of working people and not 579 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 2: the part of party of inner city activists. 580 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: Look, it's critical to social cohesion in this country that 581 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 1: people feel like they have a stake in the system, 582 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: that it's fair. 583 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 3: And it goes beyond I'd brought it out for me. 584 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: It's not about just the labor party or political page. 585 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: It's about the way that people see society. And there's 586 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: no doubt then the United States, there are a whole 587 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 1: group of people who feel like the system is stacked 588 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: against them, who are surviving on tips rather than their wage, 589 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: who can't get ahead in life at all, and who 590 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: therefore are susceptible to a message that says the reason 591 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: why you can't get ahead in life is big course 592 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: of someone who doesn't look like you. And that is 593 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: a dangerous circumstance. And one of the things that my 594 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: government's been really conscious of. I speak about no one 595 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: left behind, no one held back. That the measures that 596 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: were put in place on industry relations, for example, of 597 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: giving age care workers twenty eight percent, increase child care 598 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 1: workers fifteen percent, increase same job, same pay, so that 599 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: I've met mine workers who've earned thirty four thousand dollars 600 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: additional because they were doing the same job as someone 601 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: working side by side. The manipulation of labor higher as 602 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: opposed to people working as employees that was done by 603 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: a range of companies in the mining sector, in the 604 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: airline industry. 605 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 3: Is something that shouldn't be allowed. 606 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: I am really proud that we have real wages increasing 607 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: five quarters in a row. Issues like the right to disconnect. 608 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: When we did that, people lost their minds. Some people 609 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: have said, oh, this will lead to chaos. Guess what 610 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: it hasn't. 611 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:20,720 Speaker 2: I had the right to disconnect. 612 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 3: But what it does. 613 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: Mean is that for people who are working people not 614 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: as privileged as you and I, they if you're not 615 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: being paid twenty four hours a day, you shouldn't be 616 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: on call twenty four hours a day either. You can't 617 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: be punished. That's all it means. Equity in the system 618 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: is important. It's not just a labor social justice value 619 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: the right to working people. It's also about that cohesiveness 620 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: of Australian society as far as I'm concerned, and stopping 621 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: that polarization of haves. 622 00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:58,839 Speaker 3: And have not. 623 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: If you're an advocate for change, and I am an 624 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: advocate for change, I think that the world does change. 625 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 1: It either try and shape it or all shape you. 626 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: You've got to bring people with you on the journey 627 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,760 Speaker 1: of change. And I'm not a big nanny state person 628 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: in general. I think in general, you've got to have 629 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 1: a good argument to inter. 630 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 2: Being said and equivocally you don't. You don't like cancel 631 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 2: culture and you said this appears Morgan, just to prove 632 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 2: your now your colors to the mask. You're asked what 633 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 2: a woman was? I don't want to open that whole 634 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 2: cannon worms again. But again, you seem to you seem 635 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 2: to be returning a bit of I guess what you 636 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 2: would what my beloved colleagues on Sky after Dark would 637 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 2: call a bit of common sense to some of these 638 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 2: kind of crazy. 639 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: Illuse me if you quote Dark. I think they involved 640 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: themselves in cultural laws consistently. And one of the things 641 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to do is to not go down 642 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:53,839 Speaker 1: that track, because well. 643 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 2: That's exactly what I'm by and large that you don't 644 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 2: get into these issues. 645 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 3: You don't people. 646 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: I think I respect people for whoever they are. I 647 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: don't support punting down on minorities, but I think you 648 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: get on with life rather than also trying to look 649 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 1: for offense. And one of the things that really gives 650 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 1: me hope we can finish with you asked me early 651 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: on you know it was I an optimist, and I 652 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: absolutely am. And you know it gives me optimism every 653 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: time I go into a childcare center or a primary school. 654 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: What do you see these little kids? They don't see color, religion, ability, 655 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: they don't see anything. They just see other little kids. 656 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: And that's fantastic and that's the way that. 657 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:51,879 Speaker 3: It should be. 658 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: You know, I think prejudices learned behavior essentially and I 659 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: reckon if the whole society, like every child case center 660 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: I go into, would be a lot happier. 661 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,839 Speaker 2: Well, that's a pretty good note to end, and I'm 662 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 2: starting to feel a little bit optimistic myself. After that. 663 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 2: I'm going to stand in helvedeazy mate. 664 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for Jodystu, Thanks so much, Jack. 665 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for listening. I hope you 666 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 2: enjoyed that. We're going to try to get Peter Dutton 667 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 2: on next week if we can, for a bit of balance. 668 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 2: Until then, you can send us your feedback at the 669 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 2: Real Story at Nova Podcasts dot com dot au, or 670 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 2: you can send me a DM on Instagram at Joe 671 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 2: Underscore Hildebrand. And of course you can read my daily 672 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 2: election ANALYSISI for a subscriber of the Daily Telegraph or 673 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 2: any news court Masthead, every single day from now until 674 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,479 Speaker 2: polling Day. See you next week.