WEBVTT - Episode 26: No Way In The World 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.720 you by me Headley Thomas and the Australian. Glenn Taylor 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.720 spent most of the first day of the inquest reading 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:50.400 aloud a lengthy summary of his investigation into Bromwan's disappearance. 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:55.680 Matt Fordham, the police sergeant assisting the coroner Karl Milavanovich, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.440 had questions for Glenn, and then it would be John's lawyer, 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.160 Craig legates turn to question the detective who had all 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:08.319 but named John as an alleged killer. Matt Fordham started 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:10.880 with easy questions to set the scene. 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.679 Sir, is it the case that when you attended the 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:18.240 premises at sixty Sandstone Crescent at Lennox Head, a number 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.040 of photographs were taken of those premises? Is that correct? 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:23.399 That's correct? 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.479 And so the second photograph in the sequence that you've 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.840 got in front of you, would you agree that it 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.120 depicts a view inside the house where there are a 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.760 number of photographs visible, firstly on the wall facing the 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.040 photographer and secondly on the wall to the left hand 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:43.080 side of the photographer. Yes, that's correct, and that the 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.480 photographs that are on the walls, in particular in the 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.400 hallway of the premises, they appear to be the large 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:55.160 college style photographs. Is that correct? That's correct, and that 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.440 each of those three collages would appear to contain anywhere 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.640 from twenty to fifty photographs in each frame. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:04.000 Would you agree with. 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:05.600 That that's correct? 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.280 So when you examined the premises, did you see any 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.720 photographs of missus Bromwin Winfield in any of those photographs? 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.680 There was not a single photograph anywhere to be found 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.079 of Bromwyn Winfield in that house. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.919 Could you indicate to us whose photographs you did see 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:27.040 in those photo frames. 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.560 There's a number of children, Crystal, Lauren, and Jady. I 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:37.280 recall there's some family photographs of mister Winfield with the children. 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.200 I didn't see any of the missing person. I even 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:42.280 commented at the. 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:46.720 Tong Michelle and Andy Reid told me something about this 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.480 when they were describing an impromptu visit to the Sandstone 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.079 Crescent House in nineteen ninety eight. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.200 He's a reminder from episode ten. 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.239 Even though we were suspicious, and or had boone suspicious, 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.360 we just wanted to see the kids and. 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:08.280 We just thought, let's just do it. Romlin was white. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.079 There was not one photo of their mother. There were 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.799 photos of the kids and other family photos, but there 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:19.960 was not one picture of their mom. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:21.239 Go on. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:23.080 I couldn't believe it. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:27.320 I just thought, why are two kids being raised in 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:31.240 the manner that they're being forced to forget their mother? 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.360 It was quite daunting just to think that not one 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.040 thing was left in the house that had any full 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:40.120 memory of their mum. 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:44.800 And so is it the case that before today you 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.200 made some inquiries with respect to Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin. 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:50.920 Yes I did. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.960 And is it the case that you were informed that 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:58.160 he was unfortunately too unwell to attend court or indeed 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.720 participate in any work in relation to this matter? Is 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:02.320 that correct? 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.840 Yes, he's off in the care of his doctor. He 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.680 has a doctor's certificate current to November this year that 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.320 is unfit your can work or give evidence. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.839 So, from your experience of life generally, are you able 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.600 to indicate to the court whether it's possible to drive 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.080 from Ballina to Sydney without stopping by using just a 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.080 normal Ford Falcon petrol tank full of petrol or would 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.719 it require both petrol and gas to make the journey I. 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.360 Would say it most definitely would have required both gas 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.800 and fuel to get that distance. It would be some 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.479 eight hundred and forty eight hundred and fifty kilometers, so 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.080 it would be very doubtful whether a car could get 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.480 there on one tank of ordinary fuel. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.800 Some of those present recalled that there was a tension 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.440 in the courtroom over an unexpected turn of events. On 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:58.640 the first morning, outside court, John's daughter Jody had turned 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.400 up and breezily toed a few of those present, including 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:07.080 Andy Reid, that his sister Bromwin was apparently alive and 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.200 well and living up the road in the hippie community 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:15.440 of Nimben. Jody's suggestions that Bromwin had been seen about 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.280 forty kilometers north of where an inquest was inquiring into 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.919 her presumed deaths stunned Bromwin's friends and family members. Most 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:29.479 were deeply skeptical. Here's Bromwin's neighbor and confidante, Deb Hall. 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.400 I recall being at the courthouse in the morning. We're 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.599 all outside the court. It hadn't gone in as yet, 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.640 and Jody, I think, was the one that was talking 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.080 amongst people that she got a message to say that 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:47.120 Bromwin had been sighted or seen in Nimben. To me, 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.760 it seemed not really credible, but that was something that 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.799 was being bandied around before we actually went into the court. 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.560 I thought, why would you bring that up? Why is 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.280 that happening right this minute? What didn't they ring all 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:03.000 let them know before this? 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.000 Jody went to the police officers Glen Taylor and Matt 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:11.920 Fordham in the morning to report this crucial new information. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.400 She told them that she had received a phone call 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.440 around eight thirty am that morning from a woman called Kayleen. 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.680 Jody handed Glenn and Matt a piece of paper with 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.960 notes that she'd made during the phone call with Kayleen. 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.159 The note states, Joan says she's out nimb and weh 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.880 they know and Joan lives in Sydney. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:40.920 Glenn and Matt had important questions. This disclosure from Jody 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:42.960 needed to be investigated as a. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.120 Matter of priority. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.919 Jody seemed to believe that it was true and it 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.960 could change everything. But if not true, why was Jody 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:58.400 pressing it and who is Kayleen? Kayleen's friend Joanne Guthrie 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.960 was the purported source of the remarkable version which Jody 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:06.480 was talking about. Could Joanne confirm that Bromwin was in 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:11.760 fact alive and living somewhere out nimben Wey. Glenn worked 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:16.040 through the lunchtime adjournment. On day one, he telephoned joe 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.480 Aanne Guthrie, a woman he had spoken to three years prior, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.160 as part of his investigation. Joanne had been one of 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:27.000 Bromwin's good friends from their teenage years in the shire, 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.200 and Bromwin was bridesmaid at Joanne's wedding when she married 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.640 Craig Guthrie. And Craig Guthrie was the brother of Mark Guthrie, 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:40.480 the man with whom Bromwin had a relationship. You've heard 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:45.160 in a previous episode that Mark Guthrie believed mistakenly for 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.640 years that he was Crystal's father. On the afternoon of 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:54.040 day one, Matt Fordham asked Glenn about the unusual events 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.400 which had been unfolding in the background throughout the day. 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:00.520 And sir, is it the case that you've made some 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.440 inquiries in relation to a conversation that you had during 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:08.360 the morning to your adjournment with Jody Maine. Firstly, it 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:11.520 was said to you by miss Main that she'd received 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.640 a phone call at eight thirty this morning. 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.480 Yes, she said that she received a phone call about 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.440 eight point thirty from a female named Kayleen. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.560 And did she say to you what Kaylen said to 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.360 her on the phone this morning, Well. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.800 Not exactly the words, but words to the effect of 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.680 Kayleen had received information from a joe Ane Guthrie alleging 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.080 that the missing person brom and Winfield, was living in Nimbu. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.680 And so is it the case that over the Luncheon 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:45.840 adjournment you've made some inquiries with Joanne Guthrie? Is that correct? 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.400 I made a phone call spoke to Joeanne Guthrie on 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:54.760 the telephone. Joanne Guthrie was actually surprised with me contacting 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.440 her because we hadn't spoken to her for some years. 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.800 She states that at no stage has she ever said 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.840 anything to Kayleen that bromwin was living at mendone. She 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.640 supplied me with a last name of Kayleen, being Kayleen Jones. 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:12.320 And after court. 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.120 Finishes today, I've got to ring her back and try 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.080 to find out the current phone number for this Kayleen 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.679 and try to shed some more light on it. 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.160 And Sir, is that a matter that you'd like to 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.600 give some further evidence about at a later stage in 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.439 this inquest? Is that direct? 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:35.040 Yes, Kayleen Jones has not featured in this podcast series 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:39.160 until now. As one of Bromwin's oldest friends from her 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.920 teenage and young adult years, Kayleen remembers the willowy girl 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:48.080 from the Shire fondly. She recalls speaking with Jody in 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:51.240 a telephone conversation on the morning of the first day 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.360 of the inquest, but Kayleen's version of what Jody said 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.040 is quite different to Jody's version of what was said 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:03.760 during that phone and call. Both Kayleen and Jody were 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.439 called to give evidence on day two about this unusual 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:11.280 turn of events, You're going to hear much more about 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.559 it in the next episode. 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:14.600 Late on the. 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.760 First day, it was the lawyer Craig Legate's turn to 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:22.280 grill the police detective Glenn Taylor. Craig put his best 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.840 foot forward for his client, John Winfield, who everybody knew 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:31.679 was being implicated as Bromwin's likely killer. The lawyer began 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.959 by zeroing in on the suggestion that John had told 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.599 witnesses words to the effect of, I've already lost two houses. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.640 Before, and I'm not going to lose another. 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.920 One, Sergeant. It seems to be an important part of 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.640 your case theory that the two former wives got the 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.920 two houses and mister Winfield was going to ensure that 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.320 that never happened again. That was part of your thinking process, 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:54.840 isn't it. 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.400 Well, When I say it's part of it, it's part 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.800 of our investigation process, I mean well, interview possibly anyone 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.560 and everyone that could thought of shedding any knowledge on 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:06.360 this inquiry. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.480 It's one of the factors. It's one of the reasons 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.800 that you give, isn't it for coming to your conclusion? 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.000 Well, in certain evidence of tendency, evidence in relation to 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:20.360 domestic situations in mister Winfield's previous relationships. 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.320 And the tendency you say is because he'd lost houses 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.200 to two wives, he was not going to lose this 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:30.800 third house. That's your process of thinking, isn't it. 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.600 We have been referring to John's second wife in this 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:40.840 podcast investigation as D and that's been deliberate. She asked 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:45.000 for that kind of anonymity. We have decided to refer 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.720 to her as D in these reconstructed exchanges in the 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:49.760 Lismore courtroom. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.880 Well, the evidence that he wasn't going to lose the 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.760 house on this occasion was provided by other witnesses. He 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.559 wasn't provided by me and then other people have suggested 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.880 that to me, I only carry that forward. Certainly D 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.400 indicated that she went through a difficult property settlement. 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.240 Have you looked carefully? I asked, with respect at D's 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:19.080 record of interview. Her statement yes, her statement yes, And 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.240 it's apparent from that, isn't it that D did not 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.640 end up with the house? Didn't that become apparent to 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:26.600 you in reading it? 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.160 She had difficultly, she had to get a sorcerer. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.600 Well, just address my question, if you'd be kind enough. 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.640 I have to go over the statement again. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.520 But well, let's do it. Let me take you to it. 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.480 I know from memory that she said that she had 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.360 difficulties getting her share of the property settlement. 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.040 And did you explore with D the fact she didn't 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.520 end up with the house following the property settlement? 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.200 My recollection was that she told me that she had 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.840 difficulties getting her share. I believe she definitely got some 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.800 things from the settlement. I'm not sure exactly what she got. 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:09.079 She certainly had difficulties, allegedly due to mister Winfield's reluctance 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.320 to provide her with a fair settlement. 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.360 I spoke to DE about the difficulties that she experienced. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.600 He's a reminder from episode three. And then you say 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:25.920 John was quite bitter about the settlement following our separation. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.080 Yeah, because he had to sell the house. 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.040 We separated, so then I had to go for settlement. 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.600 And I've always been a saber and. 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.920 I had money, And what I put into the house 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.839 is only what I took out. I wasn't taking more 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:41.600 than what I actually put in. 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:48.400 You say John didn't want to give me anything, No, well, 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:49.480 how would that have worked out? 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:50.920 No? 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:52.080 Well, that's why I had to go. 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.480 I went to court to get a settlement. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.640 I had to get a solicitor and go to court 0:13:57.679 --> 0:13:59.280 to get my share of the property. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.599 Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:04.280 out in court. 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.840 Now, similarly, in relation to the first wife, Jennifer Mason, 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.120 you're aware that Jennifer Mason didn't end up with the 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.439 house following the property settlement as well, aren't you. 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.240 There's quite a lot in Missus Mason's statement. I'm not 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.920 sure where it talked about settlement in there. Well, see 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.240 I know that they said about building a home. 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.720 If it's a case that neither Missus Mason, the first wife, 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.240 or d the second wife ended up with the house. 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.520 That just blows apart your theory of this being the 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.360 third woman in a row to get a house. 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.440 Well, as I said, there's no theory. This is what 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.360 allegedly mister Winfield has told other witnesses who were able 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:49.040 to give evidence in this inquiry, that he said, where's 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.040 the effect. I've already lost two houses. I'm not going 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.360 to lose another one. These are words that mister Winfield 0:14:55.400 --> 0:15:00.000 allegedly said to other witnesses. All Right, I just produce 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:01.800 what I'm told by the witnesses. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.880 Next, Craig Leggett turned to the crucial evidence of Bromwin's 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:34.920 neighbor Murray Nolan. Murray told Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.960 eight that on the night Bromwin disappeared, he was watching 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.000 TV in his living room before eleven PM and he 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.800 heard the Winfield family car roll down the driveway. He 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.240 got up and looked out and he saw the car 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.840 with engine and lights off, scrape the bottom of the 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.160 driveway where it met the road, then back out and 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:57.160 rolled down Sandstone Crescent. At the bottom of the street, 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.760 Murray observed the engine and lights of the car turn on. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.280 And this evidence raises a point which Craig Leggett wanted 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.080 to explore with the detective if all of that's true, 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:12.800 why didn't Murray come forward in nineteen ninety three, five 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.520 years before he disclosed it to Glenn Taylor. 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.480 Let me go onto something else. Mister Nolan, the next 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.560 door neighbor who reported the car movements on sixteen May, 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.960 was interviewed by Detective Sergeant Discan in that two month 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.720 interview period immediately after sixteen May. Wasn't he? 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:30.760 I know he was spoken to it? 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.640 And can I suggest to you that mister Nolan in 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.960 those interviews with Detective Sergeant Discan didn't say anything about 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.040 the lights not being on or the car being treated 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.960 in any unusual fashion. And can I just finish the 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.600 question this way, because I suggest to you, I suggest 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.720 to you that mister Nolan must not have reported that 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.880 to Detective Sergeant Discan, or Detective Sergeant Discan would have 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.440 raised that with John Winfield. And from your analysis of 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.360 Detective Sergeant Discin's no, it's evidence that that line of 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.720 inquiry was pursued with mister Winfield. Do you understand the question. 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.439 First of all, the best person really asked would be 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:11.480 mister Nolan. 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.639 Or Detective Sergeant Discan, and you're not going to make 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.200 him available, as I understand. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.439 Well, it's not that I'm not going to make him available. 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.160 His doctor says he can't be evolable. Yes, but mister 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.120 Nolan is certainly going to be called, so he will 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.359 be available. I'm sure you'll be able to canvas that 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:30.760 with him. 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:36.440 Well, just using your experience as an experienced police officer. 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.919 I believe the inquiry, certainly in its early stages in 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.280 nineteen ninety three, was looked upon as a missing person inquiry, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.399 and there was no typewritten statements taken from neighbors and 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:50.680 other potential witnesses. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.760 That's the very point I suggest to you, Detective Sergeant, 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.280 that if mister Nolan had said to Detective Sergeant Discan, 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.360 look what I saw two days ago. Well, however long ago, 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.439 it was fairly fresh in his mind. Look, Detective Sergeant Discan, 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.080 the lights were off, the car was being driven down 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.080 the driveway in a very unusual fashion. If that had 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.720 been suggested, it wouldn't have been simply a missing person investigation, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:14.119 would it. 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.119 As I said, I think mister Nolan is the best 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.640 person to ask about that. Whether he did tell Detective 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.239 Sergeant disc and that information. Certainly I didn't see it 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.440 recorded in any of the running shirts. 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:32.160 Indeed, indeed, and mister Nolan was next interviewed some five 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.359 and a half years after the event, wasn't he. 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:39.160 In a statement not long after we commence the reinvestigation 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.520 because we were approached to have a fresh look at 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.360 the investigation, That's what we did. 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:50.560 I understand. But there seemed to be two objective facts 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.200 that Detective Sergeant Discan spoke to mister Nolan while events 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.160 were still fresh in mister Nolan's memory in journe July 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.480 of nineteen ninety three, and then ove and a half 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.440 years later, mister Nolan is interviewed again and he appears 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.120 to say something that was inconsistent. 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.840 But I honestly cannot answer your question properly because I 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:15.080 don't know if mister Nolan told Detective Sergeant Discan that 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:16.280 information or not. 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:20.560 All right, just one last question before I leave that topic. 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.920 It beggars belief. I suggest to you, as a professional policeman, 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.880 that if Detective Sergeant Discan had been told by mister 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.199 Nolan back in nineteen ninety three that the lights were 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.920 off and that the car was acting in an unusual 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.520 manner in the way it was being driven down the driveway, 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.760 that detective Sergeant Discan wouldn't have pursued that with both 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:45.160 mister Nolan and with mister Winfield. 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.760 I simply said, it's speculation, because I honestly don't know 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.320 whether mister Nolan provided to check your Sergeant Discan that information. 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:55.760 It's speculative. 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.920 The coroner asked where in the police brief there was 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.360 a note or a record of a conversation between the 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:07.119 detective Graham Discan and John's neighbor, Murray Nolan. 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.880 I have them, you're worship as a documentary exhibit. 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:16.040 I think all it says is that he spoke to neighbors. 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.960 The coroner went to the point, was there a definitive 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.960 statement or suggestion in any document, any statement or running 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.640 sheet to establish that Detective Discan did speak for any 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:33.119 length of time to Murray Nolan in nineteen ninety three. 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.560 Well, in nineteen ninety three, they didn't take any statements. 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.919 It appears that the investigation was all by way of 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:44.159 speaking to people and then recording very short summaries on 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.879 a series of ongoing running sheets. 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.840 For Murray Nolan, who was still to give his evidence. 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:54.800 The amount of time spent by John's lawyer on Murray's 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.919 failure to tell police in nineteen ninety three what he 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:02.879 says he saw to have filled him with confidence Murray 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.639 would be called to give evidence on day three of 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:10.320 the inquest. You'll recall that Murray told me about what 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.960 he decided to disclose and what he decided to keep 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.520 from Detective disc And in nineteen ninety three, so they 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:22.359 clearly spoke. Murray's actions back then are very hard to 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.880 reconcile with his efforts since here's a reminder of what 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:28.840 Murray said in episode eight. 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:31.960 Was that obvious to me? 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:34.840 It was that obvious to me that he'd killed her 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.959 because of all she's going to miss in twenty eleven. 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:46.200 And well, I'm gonna stay at this because not resting 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.440 three or four days, like it was that obvious. 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:54.639 What about when Discin started investigating soon after she disappeared. 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:56.920 Now I told him nothing, Well, what had you decided 0:21:56.960 --> 0:21:57.520 for yourself? 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.720 Well, I just thought I'm staying out of this. He's 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:02.440 my friend. 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:04.959 I've got to live next door to him, and I'm 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:07.399 going to serve for him, and I just what I'm 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.360 staying out at it was just toooust a mistaken. 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:10.600 At the time. 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:16.720 As the questioning of the detective Glenn Taylor continued, he 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:20.480 raised the fact of the mistaken assumption of Detective disc 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.480 In about the Sunday two thirteen pm phone call. 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.040 Unfortunately, there was a bit of weight put on there 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.320 about this phone call being made at two thirteen am, 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:35.080 when in fact it was two thirteen pm the previous day. 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.600 The Deputy State Coroner was right across it. 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.840 Yes, we know that's probably distracted the focus of the investigation. 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:43.760 Unfortunately. 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:49.080 Craig Leggett next raised the theory put forward by Ian Glewis, 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.600 and we all know him as Scruffy, the theory that 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.000 Bromin's body may have been buried at a building site, 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:00.840 but not in Ilwang in Uribar, a small village northwest 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:01.680 of Lennox Head. 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.480 Let's move to the Nieribar property and your theory there 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.119 seems to be that mister Winfield buried bronwin under the 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:09.119 concrete in the slab. 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:14.280 No, I didn't. Mister Glewis has a possible sedestion there. 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.000 I don't have a theory on that. As I said 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.000 I record, we're the gatherers of the evidence so to speak. 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:26.639 As investigators, Yes, I could come to some conclusions like 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:28.960 at the end of my statement, but I don't have 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:32.440 a theory so to speak, that Bromain was buried under 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:35.400 a foot of concrete at Nuribar. But if things were 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:39.480 raised by witnesses, we will endeavored to pursue those aspects. 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:44.320 So far in the podcast we have seriously discussed two 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:48.600 potential sites. Lake Ainsworth, a short drive from the Windfield 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.520 Sandstone Crescent home, and the property in Illewong in the 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.679 Shire south of Sydney, where John worked as a bricklayer. 0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:59.119 But in the lead up to the inquest, Scruffy was 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:03.000 promoting a theory that a property under construction at Nuribar 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:09.280 possibly held Bromin's remains. Neither Lake Ainsworth nor Illawong got 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:11.520 so much as a look in at the inquest. 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:15.440 Well, let's look at what you did pursue that. 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.960 There's nothing I could pursue. Well, for starters, mister Winfield 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:21.959