Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and the Australian. Glenn Taylor
Speaker 1: spent most of the first day of the inquest reading
Speaker 1: aloud a lengthy summary of his investigation into Bromwan's disappearance.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham, the police sergeant assisting the coroner Karl Milavanovich,
Speaker 1: had questions for Glenn, and then it would be John's lawyer,
Speaker 1: Craig legates turn to question the detective who had all
Speaker 1: but named John as an alleged killer. Matt Fordham started
Speaker 1: with easy questions to set the scene.
Speaker 2: Sir, is it the case that when you attended the
Speaker 2: premises at sixty Sandstone Crescent at Lennox Head, a number
Speaker 2: of photographs were taken of those premises? Is that correct?
Speaker 3: That's correct?
Speaker 2: And so the second photograph in the sequence that you've
Speaker 2: got in front of you, would you agree that it
Speaker 2: depicts a view inside the house where there are a
Speaker 2: number of photographs visible, firstly on the wall facing the
Speaker 2: photographer and secondly on the wall to the left hand
Speaker 2: side of the photographer. Yes, that's correct, and that the
Speaker 2: photographs that are on the walls, in particular in the
Speaker 2: hallway of the premises, they appear to be the large
Speaker 2: college style photographs. Is that correct? That's correct, and that
Speaker 2: each of those three collages would appear to contain anywhere
Speaker 2: from twenty to fifty photographs in each frame.
Speaker 4: Would you agree with.
Speaker 3: That that's correct?
Speaker 2: So when you examined the premises, did you see any
Speaker 2: photographs of missus Bromwin Winfield in any of those photographs?
Speaker 3: There was not a single photograph anywhere to be found
Speaker 3: of Bromwyn Winfield in that house.
Speaker 2: Could you indicate to us whose photographs you did see
Speaker 2: in those photo frames.
Speaker 3: There's a number of children, Crystal, Lauren, and Jady. I
Speaker 3: recall there's some family photographs of mister Winfield with the children.
Speaker 3: I didn't see any of the missing person. I even
Speaker 3: commented at the.
Speaker 1: Tong Michelle and Andy Reid told me something about this
Speaker 1: when they were describing an impromptu visit to the Sandstone
Speaker 1: Crescent House in nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 5: He's a reminder from episode ten.
Speaker 6: Even though we were suspicious, and or had boone suspicious,
Speaker 6: we just wanted to see the kids and.
Speaker 3: We just thought, let's just do it. Romlin was white.
Speaker 7: There was not one photo of their mother. There were
Speaker 7: photos of the kids and other family photos, but there
Speaker 7: was not one picture of their mom.
Speaker 3: Go on.
Speaker 8: I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 6: I just thought, why are two kids being raised in
Speaker 6: the manner that they're being forced to forget their mother?
Speaker 6: It was quite daunting just to think that not one
Speaker 6: thing was left in the house that had any full
Speaker 6: memory of their mum.
Speaker 2: And so is it the case that before today you
Speaker 2: made some inquiries with respect to Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin.
Speaker 3: Yes I did.
Speaker 2: And is it the case that you were informed that
Speaker 2: he was unfortunately too unwell to attend court or indeed
Speaker 2: participate in any work in relation to this matter? Is
Speaker 2: that correct?
Speaker 3: Yes, he's off in the care of his doctor. He
Speaker 3: has a doctor's certificate current to November this year that
Speaker 3: is unfit your can work or give evidence.
Speaker 2: So, from your experience of life generally, are you able
Speaker 2: to indicate to the court whether it's possible to drive
Speaker 2: from Ballina to Sydney without stopping by using just a
Speaker 2: normal Ford Falcon petrol tank full of petrol or would
Speaker 2: it require both petrol and gas to make the journey I.
Speaker 3: Would say it most definitely would have required both gas
Speaker 3: and fuel to get that distance. It would be some
Speaker 3: eight hundred and forty eight hundred and fifty kilometers, so
Speaker 3: it would be very doubtful whether a car could get
Speaker 3: there on one tank of ordinary fuel.
Speaker 1: Some of those present recalled that there was a tension
Speaker 1: in the courtroom over an unexpected turn of events. On
Speaker 1: the first morning, outside court, John's daughter Jody had turned
Speaker 1: up and breezily toed a few of those present, including
Speaker 1: Andy Reid, that his sister Bromwin was apparently alive and
Speaker 1: well and living up the road in the hippie community
Speaker 1: of Nimben. Jody's suggestions that Bromwin had been seen about
Speaker 1: forty kilometers north of where an inquest was inquiring into
Speaker 1: her presumed deaths stunned Bromwin's friends and family members. Most
Speaker 1: were deeply skeptical. Here's Bromwin's neighbor and confidante, Deb Hall.
Speaker 9: I recall being at the courthouse in the morning. We're
Speaker 9: all outside the court. It hadn't gone in as yet,
Speaker 9: and Jody, I think, was the one that was talking
Speaker 9: amongst people that she got a message to say that
Speaker 9: Bromwin had been sighted or seen in Nimben. To me,
Speaker 9: it seemed not really credible, but that was something that
Speaker 9: was being bandied around before we actually went into the court.
Speaker 9: I thought, why would you bring that up? Why is
Speaker 9: that happening right this minute? What didn't they ring all
Speaker 9: let them know before this?
Speaker 1: Jody went to the police officers Glen Taylor and Matt
Speaker 1: Fordham in the morning to report this crucial new information.
Speaker 1: She told them that she had received a phone call
Speaker 1: around eight thirty am that morning from a woman called Kayleen.
Speaker 1: Jody handed Glenn and Matt a piece of paper with
Speaker 1: notes that she'd made during the phone call with Kayleen.
Speaker 10: The note states, Joan says she's out nimb and weh
Speaker 10: they know and Joan lives in Sydney.
Speaker 1: Glenn and Matt had important questions. This disclosure from Jody
Speaker 1: needed to be investigated as a.
Speaker 5: Matter of priority.
Speaker 1: Jody seemed to believe that it was true and it
Speaker 1: could change everything. But if not true, why was Jody
Speaker 1: pressing it and who is Kayleen? Kayleen's friend Joanne Guthrie
Speaker 1: was the purported source of the remarkable version which Jody
Speaker 1: was talking about. Could Joanne confirm that Bromwin was in
Speaker 1: fact alive and living somewhere out nimben Wey. Glenn worked
Speaker 1: through the lunchtime adjournment. On day one, he telephoned joe
Speaker 1: Aanne Guthrie, a woman he had spoken to three years prior,
Speaker 1: as part of his investigation. Joanne had been one of
Speaker 1: Bromwin's good friends from their teenage years in the shire,
Speaker 1: and Bromwin was bridesmaid at Joanne's wedding when she married
Speaker 1: Craig Guthrie. And Craig Guthrie was the brother of Mark Guthrie,
Speaker 1: the man with whom Bromwin had a relationship. You've heard
Speaker 1: in a previous episode that Mark Guthrie believed mistakenly for
Speaker 1: years that he was Crystal's father. On the afternoon of
Speaker 1: day one, Matt Fordham asked Glenn about the unusual events
Speaker 1: which had been unfolding in the background throughout the day.
Speaker 2: And sir, is it the case that you've made some
Speaker 2: inquiries in relation to a conversation that you had during
Speaker 2: the morning to your adjournment with Jody Maine. Firstly, it
Speaker 2: was said to you by miss Main that she'd received
Speaker 2: a phone call at eight thirty this morning.
Speaker 3: Yes, she said that she received a phone call about
Speaker 3: eight point thirty from a female named Kayleen.
Speaker 2: And did she say to you what Kaylen said to
Speaker 2: her on the phone this morning, Well.
Speaker 3: Not exactly the words, but words to the effect of
Speaker 3: Kayleen had received information from a joe Ane Guthrie alleging
Speaker 3: that the missing person brom and Winfield, was living in Nimbu.
Speaker 2: And so is it the case that over the Luncheon
Speaker 2: adjournment you've made some inquiries with Joanne Guthrie? Is that correct?
Speaker 3: I made a phone call spoke to Joeanne Guthrie on
Speaker 3: the telephone. Joanne Guthrie was actually surprised with me contacting
Speaker 3: her because we hadn't spoken to her for some years.
Speaker 3: She states that at no stage has she ever said
Speaker 3: anything to Kayleen that bromwin was living at mendone. She
Speaker 3: supplied me with a last name of Kayleen, being Kayleen Jones.
Speaker 8: And after court.
Speaker 3: Finishes today, I've got to ring her back and try
Speaker 3: to find out the current phone number for this Kayleen
Speaker 3: and try to shed some more light on it.
Speaker 2: And Sir, is that a matter that you'd like to
Speaker 2: give some further evidence about at a later stage in
Speaker 2: this inquest? Is that direct?
Speaker 1: Yes, Kayleen Jones has not featured in this podcast series
Speaker 1: until now. As one of Bromwin's oldest friends from her
Speaker 1: teenage and young adult years, Kayleen remembers the willowy girl
Speaker 1: from the Shire fondly. She recalls speaking with Jody in
Speaker 1: a telephone conversation on the morning of the first day
Speaker 1: of the inquest, but Kayleen's version of what Jody said
Speaker 1: is quite different to Jody's version of what was said
Speaker 1: during that phone and call. Both Kayleen and Jody were
Speaker 1: called to give evidence on day two about this unusual
Speaker 1: turn of events, You're going to hear much more about
Speaker 1: it in the next episode.
Speaker 5: Late on the.
Speaker 1: First day, it was the lawyer Craig Legate's turn to
Speaker 1: grill the police detective Glenn Taylor. Craig put his best
Speaker 1: foot forward for his client, John Winfield, who everybody knew
Speaker 1: was being implicated as Bromwin's likely killer. The lawyer began
Speaker 1: by zeroing in on the suggestion that John had told
Speaker 1: witnesses words to the effect of, I've already lost two houses.
Speaker 5: Before, and I'm not going to lose another.
Speaker 8: One, Sergeant. It seems to be an important part of
Speaker 8: your case theory that the two former wives got the
Speaker 8: two houses and mister Winfield was going to ensure that
Speaker 8: that never happened again. That was part of your thinking process,
Speaker 8: isn't it.
Speaker 3: Well, When I say it's part of it, it's part
Speaker 3: of our investigation process, I mean well, interview possibly anyone
Speaker 3: and everyone that could thought of shedding any knowledge on
Speaker 3: this inquiry.
Speaker 8: It's one of the factors. It's one of the reasons
Speaker 8: that you give, isn't it for coming to your conclusion?
Speaker 3: Well, in certain evidence of tendency, evidence in relation to
Speaker 3: domestic situations in mister Winfield's previous relationships.
Speaker 8: And the tendency you say is because he'd lost houses
Speaker 8: to two wives, he was not going to lose this
Speaker 8: third house. That's your process of thinking, isn't it.
Speaker 1: We have been referring to John's second wife in this
Speaker 1: podcast investigation as D and that's been deliberate. She asked
Speaker 1: for that kind of anonymity. We have decided to refer
Speaker 1: to her as D in these reconstructed exchanges in the
Speaker 1: Lismore courtroom.
Speaker 3: Well, the evidence that he wasn't going to lose the
Speaker 3: house on this occasion was provided by other witnesses. He
Speaker 3: wasn't provided by me and then other people have suggested
Speaker 3: that to me, I only carry that forward. Certainly D
Speaker 3: indicated that she went through a difficult property settlement.
Speaker 8: Have you looked carefully? I asked, with respect at D's
Speaker 8: record of interview. Her statement yes, her statement yes, And
Speaker 8: it's apparent from that, isn't it that D did not
Speaker 8: end up with the house? Didn't that become apparent to
Speaker 8: you in reading it?
Speaker 3: She had difficultly, she had to get a sorcerer.
Speaker 8: Well, just address my question, if you'd be kind enough.
Speaker 3: I have to go over the statement again.
Speaker 8: But well, let's do it. Let me take you to it.
Speaker 3: I know from memory that she said that she had
Speaker 3: difficulties getting her share of the property settlement.
Speaker 8: And did you explore with D the fact she didn't
Speaker 8: end up with the house following the property settlement?
Speaker 3: My recollection was that she told me that she had
Speaker 3: difficulties getting her share. I believe she definitely got some
Speaker 3: things from the settlement. I'm not sure exactly what she got.
Speaker 3: She certainly had difficulties, allegedly due to mister Winfield's reluctance
Speaker 3: to provide her with a fair settlement.
Speaker 1: I spoke to DE about the difficulties that she experienced.
Speaker 1: He's a reminder from episode three. And then you say
Speaker 1: John was quite bitter about the settlement following our separation.
Speaker 8: Yeah, because he had to sell the house.
Speaker 6: We separated, so then I had to go for settlement.
Speaker 4: And I've always been a saber and.
Speaker 9: I had money, And what I put into the house
Speaker 9: is only what I took out. I wasn't taking more
Speaker 9: than what I actually put in.
Speaker 1: You say John didn't want to give me anything, No, well,
Speaker 1: how would that have worked out?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 3: Well, that's why I had to go.
Speaker 9: I went to court to get a settlement.
Speaker 1: I had to get a solicitor and go to court
Speaker 1: to get my share of the property.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of
Speaker 3: out in court.
Speaker 8: Now, similarly, in relation to the first wife, Jennifer Mason,
Speaker 8: you're aware that Jennifer Mason didn't end up with the
Speaker 8: house following the property settlement as well, aren't you.
Speaker 3: There's quite a lot in Missus Mason's statement. I'm not
Speaker 3: sure where it talked about settlement in there. Well, see
Speaker 3: I know that they said about building a home.
Speaker 8: If it's a case that neither Missus Mason, the first wife,
Speaker 8: or d the second wife ended up with the house.
Speaker 8: That just blows apart your theory of this being the
Speaker 8: third woman in a row to get a house.
Speaker 3: Well, as I said, there's no theory. This is what
Speaker 3: allegedly mister Winfield has told other witnesses who were able
Speaker 3: to give evidence in this inquiry, that he said, where's
Speaker 3: the effect. I've already lost two houses. I'm not going
Speaker 3: to lose another one. These are words that mister Winfield
Speaker 3: allegedly said to other witnesses. All Right, I just produce
Speaker 3: what I'm told by the witnesses.
Speaker 1: Next, Craig Leggett turned to the crucial evidence of Bromwin's
Speaker 1: neighbor Murray Nolan. Murray told Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: eight that on the night Bromwin disappeared, he was watching
Speaker 1: TV in his living room before eleven PM and he
Speaker 1: heard the Winfield family car roll down the driveway. He
Speaker 1: got up and looked out and he saw the car
Speaker 1: with engine and lights off, scrape the bottom of the
Speaker 1: driveway where it met the road, then back out and
Speaker 1: rolled down Sandstone Crescent. At the bottom of the street,
Speaker 1: Murray observed the engine and lights of the car turn on.
Speaker 1: And this evidence raises a point which Craig Leggett wanted
Speaker 1: to explore with the detective if all of that's true,
Speaker 1: why didn't Murray come forward in nineteen ninety three, five
Speaker 1: years before he disclosed it to Glenn Taylor.
Speaker 8: Let me go onto something else. Mister Nolan, the next
Speaker 8: door neighbor who reported the car movements on sixteen May,
Speaker 8: was interviewed by Detective Sergeant Discan in that two month
Speaker 8: interview period immediately after sixteen May. Wasn't he?
Speaker 3: I know he was spoken to it?
Speaker 8: And can I suggest to you that mister Nolan in
Speaker 8: those interviews with Detective Sergeant Discan didn't say anything about
Speaker 8: the lights not being on or the car being treated
Speaker 8: in any unusual fashion. And can I just finish the
Speaker 8: question this way, because I suggest to you, I suggest
Speaker 8: to you that mister Nolan must not have reported that
Speaker 8: to Detective Sergeant Discan, or Detective Sergeant Discan would have
Speaker 8: raised that with John Winfield. And from your analysis of
Speaker 8: Detective Sergeant Discin's no, it's evidence that that line of
Speaker 8: inquiry was pursued with mister Winfield. Do you understand the question.
Speaker 3: First of all, the best person really asked would be
Speaker 3: mister Nolan.
Speaker 8: Or Detective Sergeant Discan, and you're not going to make
Speaker 8: him available, as I understand.
Speaker 3: Well, it's not that I'm not going to make him available.
Speaker 3: His doctor says he can't be evolable. Yes, but mister
Speaker 3: Nolan is certainly going to be called, so he will
Speaker 3: be available. I'm sure you'll be able to canvas that
Speaker 3: with him.
Speaker 8: Well, just using your experience as an experienced police officer.
Speaker 3: I believe the inquiry, certainly in its early stages in
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, was looked upon as a missing person inquiry,
Speaker 3: and there was no typewritten statements taken from neighbors and
Speaker 3: other potential witnesses.
Speaker 8: That's the very point I suggest to you, Detective Sergeant,
Speaker 8: that if mister Nolan had said to Detective Sergeant Discan,
Speaker 8: look what I saw two days ago. Well, however long ago,
Speaker 8: it was fairly fresh in his mind. Look, Detective Sergeant Discan,
Speaker 8: the lights were off, the car was being driven down
Speaker 8: the driveway in a very unusual fashion. If that had
Speaker 8: been suggested, it wouldn't have been simply a missing person investigation,
Speaker 8: would it.
Speaker 3: As I said, I think mister Nolan is the best
Speaker 3: person to ask about that. Whether he did tell Detective
Speaker 3: Sergeant disc and that information. Certainly I didn't see it
Speaker 3: recorded in any of the running shirts.
Speaker 8: Indeed, indeed, and mister Nolan was next interviewed some five
Speaker 8: and a half years after the event, wasn't he.
Speaker 3: In a statement not long after we commence the reinvestigation
Speaker 3: because we were approached to have a fresh look at
Speaker 3: the investigation, That's what we did.
Speaker 8: I understand. But there seemed to be two objective facts
Speaker 8: that Detective Sergeant Discan spoke to mister Nolan while events
Speaker 8: were still fresh in mister Nolan's memory in journe July
Speaker 8: of nineteen ninety three, and then ove and a half
Speaker 8: years later, mister Nolan is interviewed again and he appears
Speaker 8: to say something that was inconsistent.
Speaker 3: But I honestly cannot answer your question properly because I
Speaker 3: don't know if mister Nolan told Detective Sergeant Discan that
Speaker 3: information or not.
Speaker 8: All right, just one last question before I leave that topic.
Speaker 8: It beggars belief. I suggest to you, as a professional policeman,
Speaker 8: that if Detective Sergeant Discan had been told by mister
Speaker 8: Nolan back in nineteen ninety three that the lights were
Speaker 8: off and that the car was acting in an unusual
Speaker 8: manner in the way it was being driven down the driveway,
Speaker 8: that detective Sergeant Discan wouldn't have pursued that with both
Speaker 8: mister Nolan and with mister Winfield.
Speaker 3: I simply said, it's speculation, because I honestly don't know
Speaker 3: whether mister Nolan provided to check your Sergeant Discan that information.
Speaker 3: It's speculative.
Speaker 1: The coroner asked where in the police brief there was
Speaker 1: a note or a record of a conversation between the
Speaker 1: detective Graham Discan and John's neighbor, Murray Nolan.
Speaker 8: I have them, you're worship as a documentary exhibit.
Speaker 3: I think all it says is that he spoke to neighbors.
Speaker 1: The coroner went to the point, was there a definitive
Speaker 1: statement or suggestion in any document, any statement or running
Speaker 1: sheet to establish that Detective Discan did speak for any
Speaker 1: length of time to Murray Nolan in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: Well, in nineteen ninety three, they didn't take any statements.
Speaker 3: It appears that the investigation was all by way of
Speaker 3: speaking to people and then recording very short summaries on
Speaker 3: a series of ongoing running sheets.
Speaker 1: For Murray Nolan, who was still to give his evidence.
Speaker 1: The amount of time spent by John's lawyer on Murray's
Speaker 1: failure to tell police in nineteen ninety three what he
Speaker 1: says he saw to have filled him with confidence Murray
Speaker 1: would be called to give evidence on day three of
Speaker 1: the inquest. You'll recall that Murray told me about what
Speaker 1: he decided to disclose and what he decided to keep
Speaker 1: from Detective disc And in nineteen ninety three, so they
Speaker 1: clearly spoke. Murray's actions back then are very hard to
Speaker 1: reconcile with his efforts since here's a reminder of what
Speaker 1: Murray said in episode eight.
Speaker 5: Was that obvious to me?
Speaker 12: It was that obvious to me that he'd killed her
Speaker 12: because of all she's going to miss in twenty eleven.
Speaker 12: And well, I'm gonna stay at this because not resting
Speaker 12: three or four days, like it was that obvious.
Speaker 1: What about when Discin started investigating soon after she disappeared.
Speaker 8: Now I told him nothing, Well, what had you decided
Speaker 8: for yourself?
Speaker 5: Well, I just thought I'm staying out of this. He's
Speaker 5: my friend.
Speaker 12: I've got to live next door to him, and I'm
Speaker 12: going to serve for him, and I just what I'm
Speaker 12: staying out at it was just toooust a mistaken.
Speaker 5: At the time.
Speaker 1: As the questioning of the detective Glenn Taylor continued, he
Speaker 1: raised the fact of the mistaken assumption of Detective disc
Speaker 1: In about the Sunday two thirteen pm phone call.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, there was a bit of weight put on there
Speaker 3: about this phone call being made at two thirteen am,
Speaker 3: when in fact it was two thirteen pm the previous day.
Speaker 1: The Deputy State Coroner was right across it.
Speaker 13: Yes, we know that's probably distracted the focus of the investigation.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett next raised the theory put forward by Ian Glewis,
Speaker 1: and we all know him as Scruffy, the theory that
Speaker 1: Bromin's body may have been buried at a building site,
Speaker 1: but not in Ilwang in Uribar, a small village northwest
Speaker 1: of Lennox Head.
Speaker 8: Let's move to the Nieribar property and your theory there
Speaker 8: seems to be that mister Winfield buried bronwin under the
Speaker 8: concrete in the slab.
Speaker 3: No, I didn't. Mister Glewis has a possible sedestion there.
Speaker 3: I don't have a theory on that. As I said
Speaker 3: I record, we're the gatherers of the evidence so to speak.
Speaker 3: As investigators, Yes, I could come to some conclusions like
Speaker 3: at the end of my statement, but I don't have
Speaker 3: a theory so to speak, that Bromain was buried under
Speaker 3: a foot of concrete at Nuribar. But if things were
Speaker 3: raised by witnesses, we will endeavored to pursue those aspects.
Speaker 1: So far in the podcast we have seriously discussed two
Speaker 1: potential sites. Lake Ainsworth, a short drive from the Windfield
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent home, and the property in Illewong in the
Speaker 1: Shire south of Sydney, where John worked as a bricklayer.
Speaker 1: But in the lead up to the inquest, Scruffy was
Speaker 1: promoting a theory that a property under construction at Nuribar
Speaker 1: possibly held Bromin's remains. Neither Lake Ainsworth nor Illawong got
Speaker 1: so much as a look in at the inquest.
Speaker 8: Well, let's look at what you did pursue that.
Speaker 3: There's nothing I could pursue. Well, for starters, mister Winfield
Speaker 3: was working in Sydney at the time. He wasn't working
Speaker 3: at Nuribar.
Speaker 8: Are you saying that you've now satisfied yourself because of
Speaker 8: the likely chronology that there's nothing in this Newybar concrete
Speaker 8: slab trail to warn't going down.
Speaker 3: No, I haven't satisfied myself because it's an area there
Speaker 3: that could there could be room there to follow up.
Speaker 3: But we just do not know where that location is.
Speaker 3: And then exact time frame where mister Winfield was working
Speaker 3: on this Newybar house we haven't been able to establish.
Speaker 8: Well, let's do it step by step. It wouldn't matter
Speaker 8: if the concrete slab was poured before sixteen May nineteen
Speaker 8: ninety three, because we all know bromwin was alive on
Speaker 8: sixteen May nineteen ninety three. Agreed, Agreed, So the only
Speaker 8: relevance can be if the concrete slab was laid sometime
Speaker 8: after sixteen May ninety ninety three. It's got to be logical,
Speaker 8: doesn't it.
Speaker 3: That's correct. We just simply don't know where the property is.
Speaker 8: Well, just stay with me. If it was laid before
Speaker 8: sixteen May nineteen ninety three, it's quite irrelevant because Bronwyn
Speaker 8: was alive on sixteen May nineteen ninety three. That's right,
Speaker 8: isn't it.
Speaker 3: You've agreed it's irrelevant to the point that if she's
Speaker 3: under the slab.
Speaker 8: Because she couldn't be under the slab, That's right, exactly. Now,
Speaker 8: the evidence is that mister Winfield was not seen in
Speaker 8: the Lenoxhead area for some two weeks after sixteen May
Speaker 8: ninety ninety three. The evidence seems to suggest he was
Speaker 8: in Sydney.
Speaker 5: Agreed, that's correct.
Speaker 8: So if he was to put Bromwin in the concrete
Speaker 8: slab at some stage, the body must have been stored
Speaker 8: somewhere for a couple of weeks. That's part of the
Speaker 8: th isn't it.
Speaker 3: You're saying this word theory. I've never suggested a theory
Speaker 3: to start. I just say what mister Glewis has told
Speaker 3: me and included in the brief if now, I don't
Speaker 3: know what point in time they could have formed this
Speaker 3: and didn't pour the concrete till a month later. I
Speaker 3: honestly don't know. I'm not a builder. Things might get
Speaker 3: formed up ready to pour concrete, and for one reason
Speaker 3: or another, perhaps it's whether or the concrete or not
Speaker 3: being a viable or whatever, perhaps the slab is not
Speaker 3: actually poured for three to four weeks half it's formed up.
Speaker 3: Our biggest problem is we don't know the exact chronology,
Speaker 3: and secondly, we don't know what the location of this
Speaker 3: property at Nurriba.
Speaker 8: All right? Can I suggest to you the property is
Speaker 8: Ernie Kiss's property at Nirriba Martin's Lane, Nuriba. And can
Speaker 8: I suggest to you that you could have found that
Speaker 8: out simply by speaking to mister Glewis about which jobs
Speaker 8: he was working on in the nineteen ninety three period.
Speaker 8: But because you thought there was so little weight in
Speaker 8: the point, you didn't bother investigating it.
Speaker 3: No, that's not true, and mister Glewis is going to
Speaker 3: give evidence as well. Yes, he was specifically asked could
Speaker 3: he go out and locate that property? He was unable
Speaker 3: to do it.
Speaker 8: I'm asking about a specific matter, and that is your
Speaker 8: failure to investigate.
Speaker 3: Is not a failure to investigate where.
Speaker 8: Mister Lewis was working at that period in time in
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: Well, I've asked the direct source. He doesn't know.
Speaker 8: All right. You know, don't you that he was working
Speaker 8: in the building industry in ninety ninety three. You're aware of.
Speaker 3: That he was one of probably many people on specific
Speaker 3: locations houses being built. Again, you're probably best to ask
Speaker 3: mister Glewis why he.
Speaker 1: Can't locate the house. The white Ford Falcon sedan, which
Speaker 1: John drove from the house in Sandstone Crescent on the
Speaker 1: night Bromwin disappeared was always an old, obvious potential crime scene.
Speaker 1: It should have been subjected to forensic examination during the
Speaker 1: first police investigation by Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 1: You'll recall that the vehicle's registration had expired in May
Speaker 1: of that year, and that John renewed the redgo at
Speaker 1: a place called Miranda in the Shire south of Sydney
Speaker 1: on the afternoon of Monday May seventeen. John would drive
Speaker 1: the same car for another four years until May nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety seven. He got rid of the Ford Falcon one
Speaker 1: year before. Glenn Taylor came on the scene as the
Speaker 1: investigating detective.
Speaker 3: And we said where did it go to? And he said,
Speaker 3: I sold to a recon yard. It's solid for scrap metals.
Speaker 3: We didn't think the car existed any further. I think
Speaker 3: we rang several recognards. Do you have any recollection of
Speaker 3: a person named John Winville selling a Ford Falcon as
Speaker 3: a wreck for scrap metal?
Speaker 11: I don't believe we ever located the car where it
Speaker 11: was salted. It wasn't so like an ordinary car to
Speaker 11: somebody else, but he couldn't recall which wrecking out it was.
Speaker 1: We do not believe that the vehicle has survived, but
Speaker 1: anything's possible that was crushed.
Speaker 4: Well, that's what I was told by joining.
Speaker 1: Ronman's cousin, Megan Reid is referring to detective Inspector George Radmore,
Speaker 1: who ran a homicide investigation from two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: and we're going to have a good look at that
Speaker 1: investigation after the inquest episodes.
Speaker 8: Putting in another way, the white Falcon was available for
Speaker 8: inspections for about four years after the disappearance of ronwin
Speaker 8: wasn't it inspection by the police.
Speaker 3: It would have been available to detect your so to
Speaker 3: disking if he was the original person in charge of
Speaker 3: the inquiry. It certainly wasn't avilable when we started the reinvestigation.
Speaker 8: And it's hardly the case that mister Winfield gets rid
Speaker 8: of the car as soon as possible, because there's potential
Speaker 8: bloodstains or something in the boot. He's driving that car
Speaker 8: around for four years, isn't he.
Speaker 3: That's right, he didn't get rid of it.
Speaker 8: No, Now, your records show that Bronwin made a number
Speaker 8: of phone calls to country Link train timetable inquiry line
Speaker 8: of four May, five May and twelve May. That's what
Speaker 8: your inquiries show, don't they.
Speaker 3: I believe you're talking about what Disco and had established.
Speaker 8: Yes, well that forms part of your inquiry, doesn't it.
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 8: And those dates are right? Does that jog your memory?
Speaker 3: Well, that's going by what the runny sheets say.
Speaker 1: It is possible that the country Link phone calls were
Speaker 1: related to the planned visit by Bronwin's sister, Kim Marshall.
Speaker 1: Kim had options to take a train or a bus
Speaker 1: from Sydney, her first destination after leaving Tasmania for the
Speaker 1: trip to the mainland.
Speaker 8: Now a detective Sergeant Diskin's running sheet records Bromwin making
Speaker 8: a statement very soon prior to sixteen May were in effect,
Speaker 8: she says, your people are all going to be astonished
Speaker 8: in the future. I'm not going to be around. You
Speaker 8: can remember a statement to that effect.
Speaker 3: I think I mentioned that in my overview statement.
Speaker 1: The closest comments in Graham Diskins's running sheet to those
Speaker 1: words are those recorded as coming from Bromwin's cousin Meghan
Speaker 1: Reid and the words which Bromwin purportedly spoke to Megan
Speaker 1: were quote you will all pay, and quote none of
Speaker 1: you will know what is happening. But did Bromman say
Speaker 1: those words to Megan or to Meghan's mother, Leah, because
Speaker 1: a similar version is in Lea's statement. The Running Sheets
Speaker 1: also record Megan claiming that Bromwin was a user of
Speaker 1: cannabis and a flower child who may very well be
Speaker 1: living on a commune somewhere, perhaps somewhere like Nimben. Claims
Speaker 1: like those were contradicted fiercely by others, including Bromwin's very
Speaker 1: close friends, and to this day Meghan is adamant that
Speaker 1: an impersonator had told Graham Diskin the information recorded as
Speaker 1: having come from Megan.
Speaker 8: Now, did you interview Bromin's mother? You didn't go to Tasmania?
Speaker 8: I don't think, did you?
Speaker 3: I didn't go.
Speaker 8: No, But when you read the statement from Bromwin's mother,
Speaker 8: did it strike you that there were similarities between what
Speaker 8: the mother had done and what Bronwyn might have done.
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 8: You see, Bromwin's mother took off, leaving Bronwin and young
Speaker 8: Andrew both as preschoolers, and had no contact with them
Speaker 8: for eleven years. That's as you understand the facts, isn't it.
Speaker 3: But Bromwin didn't suffer from schizophrenia. There was nothing to
Speaker 3: suggest that she suffered from any mental illness or schizophrenia.
Speaker 8: Right, well, let's just deal with the mental illness part.
Speaker 8: You've read in the statements of evidence, Bronwan's saying that
Speaker 8: mister Penny and the Clearvoyant was the spirit of her
Speaker 8: dead father. You've recalled Bromwin recounting that to a family friend,
Speaker 8: haven't she.
Speaker 3: I think it was something in fact in the running
Speaker 3: shees from Diskin. Is it something about the clear Voyant?
Speaker 8: Yes, the Clearvoyant Bronwin said was the spirit of her
Speaker 8: dead father. Now does strike you as being a rational statement?
Speaker 3: Nope, I can't speculate because I didn't speak to the
Speaker 3: clairvoyant back in nineteen ninety three. I did speak to
Speaker 3: him in nineteen ninety eight, and he didn't recall very
Speaker 3: much about her at all.
Speaker 8: You see, there's a statement, and I'll take the witness
Speaker 8: to it, but I just wanted to explore it with you.
Speaker 8: Bronwin told one of the family members that the clairvoint
Speaker 8: Pendragon had told her that a man was going to
Speaker 8: come into her life and take her away from everything,
Speaker 8: and all the problems would be solved. Can you remember that?
Speaker 1: Being recounted, John's story has consistently painted Bronwin as being unstable,
Speaker 1: suffering from some kind of undiagnosed mental illness. When I
Speaker 1: approached John before the start of this podcast series and
Speaker 1: invited him to put his side of the story, he
Speaker 1: replied that the Reed family had what he called a
Speaker 1: history of mental illness. It was perhaps unsurprising that John
Speaker 1: instructed his lawyer, Craig Leggett to try to depict Bromwin
Speaker 1: as a woman who might have left because, according to John,
Speaker 1: Bromwin was mentally unwell.
Speaker 3: I suppose when you go to a clearvoint, I mean,
Speaker 3: a lot of people hope to hear all thoughts the things,
Speaker 3: and they probably do tell them all thoughts the things.
Speaker 3: But if you go into Tarrey card reading, I honestly
Speaker 3: don't know. But all I do know is from all
Speaker 3: the people witnesses I spoke to and all the family members,
Speaker 3: there was nothing at all to suggest that Bromwin had
Speaker 3: any form of mental illness or schizophrenia. Prior to her disappearance.
Speaker 3: She might have been said, she might have been lonely,
Speaker 3: she might have been short of money. All those things
Speaker 3: come with possibly being sad. But there's not one thing
Speaker 3: to suggest that she was going to leave the kids
Speaker 3: or leave the Lennox Head area. There was nothing there
Speaker 3: at all. I mean, not one iota of similarity. What
Speaker 3: you're suggesting between her mother and Broman's disappearance, that they're
Speaker 3: linked together by mental illness.
Speaker 8: Broman got in touch with quite out of the blue,
Speaker 8: with Crystal's grandparents within the two weeks prior to her
Speaker 8: disappearance and set up a link between Crystal's grandparents and Crystal.
Speaker 8: It was quite out of the blue, it wasn't it.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you go through her phone records there
Speaker 3: in Byron Street just prior to the disappearance, I think
Speaker 3: she was in contact with quite a few people.
Speaker 8: But she hadn't been in touch with Crystal's grandparents ever
Speaker 8: leading up to that. As far as your inquiry is established,
Speaker 8: that's right, isn't it.
Speaker 3: No? No, I don't think so.
Speaker 8: See. I suggest to you that Bronwin was setting up
Speaker 8: the safety nets so that she could go off the
Speaker 8: way her mother had left her for some eleven years.
Speaker 8: How do you respond to that? As to your inquiries
Speaker 8: just don't agree with that.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer pivoted. Now it was time to suggest Bronwin
Speaker 1: had been living somewhere incognito.
Speaker 8: Now let's look at some potential sightings. Jane Johnson is
Speaker 8: a fifty two year old woman who is now practicing
Speaker 8: as a clinical psychologist. That is, as far as you
Speaker 8: understand it isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yes, she's in Sydney. I'm not sure what her occupation
Speaker 3: is now.
Speaker 8: And the clinical psychologist the last sentence in paragraph thirteen says,
Speaker 8: I am ninety five percent sure that this person was Bronwin,
Speaker 8: even though she didn't respond. This is referring to a
Speaker 8: Sunday in January of nineteen ninety four in the Cronulla Plaza. Now,
Speaker 8: what if anything, have you done to explore that particular
Speaker 8: statement with Jane Johnson.
Speaker 3: We've taken a statement from Jane Johnson. Is that the
Speaker 3: statement you're referring to, Yes.
Speaker 8: And this is from a person who's a clinical psychologist,
Speaker 8: age fifty two in.
Speaker 3: Ninety ninety four, that's right. And somewhere in a busy
Speaker 3: shopping center where she said that she called her name out,
Speaker 3: she didn't respond to the name, and then she lost
Speaker 3: her in the crowd. She got a bit of a
Speaker 3: quick glimpse of her. I don't know if she says
Speaker 3: ninety five percent sure.
Speaker 8: Well you can take it from me. She says, I
Speaker 8: am ninety five percent sure that this person was Bronlan.
Speaker 8: So you've just discounted that as not consistent with your
Speaker 8: theory that mister Winfield was somehow involved.
Speaker 3: She didn't speak to the person face to face. I
Speaker 3: think she said she got a look at a person
Speaker 3: that looked like Bromwin. She called out that person's name.
Speaker 3: That person didn't respond. She walked over towards that person
Speaker 3: and lost her in the I mean, what else can
Speaker 3: we do? We put the missing person on public display
Speaker 3: in the whole state of New South Wales, gone to
Speaker 3: every media outlet we can.
Speaker 8: All right, let's have a look at another one. Diane
Speaker 8: McMillan range. This is paragraph twelve of di McMillan's statement.
Speaker 8: Rang John Winfield straight after this sighting and told him
Speaker 8: that I thought I'd seen Bronwin in Coronella. That's paragraph twelve.
Speaker 8: Paragraph eleven caught the side profile of this girl. I
Speaker 8: thought it was Bronwan standing there. The girl had long
Speaker 8: blonde hair with a distinctive wave. Again, you just discount
Speaker 8: that potential sighting entirely, do you?
Speaker 3: No, I didn't discand it. She got a glimpse of
Speaker 3: a person or something to that effect. She got a
Speaker 3: side profile.
Speaker 8: But what we do know is that she rang John Winfield,
Speaker 8: she says, straight after, and told him I thought I
Speaker 8: had seen bronwin So it would appear that she was
Speaker 8: fairly certain, sufficiently certain about it to Warry Ringing, John.
Speaker 3: Look these missing person's reports. I look at it to
Speaker 3: say possible sightings or definite sidings. I've had a lot
Speaker 3: of experience in missing person's inquiries in this sort of thing,
Speaker 3: from a lot of years in homicide squad. We put
Speaker 3: things in the media. People would ring up and say
Speaker 3: I think I saw a person like that, and you
Speaker 3: get all that. But if you're talking about possible or definite,
Speaker 3: these people are saying it was possible sightings.
Speaker 8: Well, ninety five percent is pretty hotly, isn't it. It's
Speaker 8: beyond reasonable doubt, isn't it?
Speaker 3: Well, she says here, ninety five percent, realistically, that's probably
Speaker 3: her words. Ninety five percent almost suggests that she was definite.
Speaker 8: It does, doesn't it?
Speaker 3: Well? Ninety five percent. I think it's probably more likely
Speaker 3: poorly worded, all right, if she catches a glimpse of
Speaker 3: a side profile.
Speaker 1: You'll recall from episode twenty one hearing about evidence of
Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety six change of address for Bromwin from
Speaker 1: lenox Head to an old address she had in the Shire,
Speaker 1: according to the records of the government department Centrelink, and
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle Reid shared their view that someone other
Speaker 1: than Bromwyn was responsible for the change of address to
Speaker 1: a unit in Credulla in which Bromwin had lived with
Speaker 1: John Winfield before they moved to lenox Head. I have
Speaker 1: been to this property with Andy. We went there near
Speaker 1: the end of season two.
Speaker 10: Gosh, it looks really small. It's not very big at all, mate,
Speaker 10: No caud you see them there. We looked from the
Speaker 10: street at the dilapidated extension to a shop. Andy's mind
Speaker 10: went back to the nineteen eighties when John and Bromwin
Speaker 10: were in what looked like a blossoming relationship.
Speaker 8: That's where Lauren came home to from hospital and she
Speaker 8: was a baby.
Speaker 6: Because he was that type broman used to have to
Speaker 6: do the bottles on the stove and everything. I finally
Speaker 6: got the shoes for that after coming in sooner struggling away,
Speaker 6: so I'd borderr.
Speaker 8: A microwave so she could make Lawrence bottles.
Speaker 1: Andy's view is that somebody wanted to make it appear
Speaker 1: that it was Bromwin who had made the change, and
Speaker 1: therefore that Bromwin was alive, in the same way that
Speaker 1: somebody claiming to be Bromwin had telephoned the hair salon
Speaker 1: into cuts and supposedly went back to the house in
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent and left a Medicare check. Glenn Taylor offered
Speaker 1: another explanation at the inquest in response to a question
Speaker 1: from John's lawyer about the change of address.
Speaker 8: Let me move on to something else. Paragraph one hundred
Speaker 8: and seventy eight in your statement refers to a change
Speaker 8: of address coming onto the Senderlink computer records on twenty
Speaker 8: four April nineteen ninety six. Now new account for that
Speaker 8: being not Bronwin, who has supplied the change of address
Speaker 8: details in nineteen ninety six. But you say subsequent police
Speaker 8: inquiries revealed this to be an old record maintained by
Speaker 8: Social Security and doesn't reflect a change of address notification
Speaker 8: by the missing person. Let me ask you this did
Speaker 8: you actually do the inquiry of Centlink about the records.
Speaker 3: Yes, I did, as far as I remember, I did them.
Speaker 1: Glenn had asked Centilink to provide detectives with details about
Speaker 1: Bromin's account. He received information from a Centerlink officer, Francis McNamara.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett probed further.
Speaker 8: But it's clear that someone in nineteen ninety six provides
Speaker 8: the computer with information warranting a change of address. Isn't
Speaker 8: it something triggers it?
Speaker 3: No, all it would have been is the computer saying
Speaker 3: that there used to be an address down there in
Speaker 3: e was Parade Cronulla. We'll try that. We'll send it
Speaker 3: down there, see if we can find her down there.
Speaker 8: Well are you guessing now, aren't you? With respect?
Speaker 3: Well, it certainly was not a person in person. Well
Speaker 3: you don't know that it wasn't done personally. Well you
Speaker 3: don't know that, do you, because I was told by
Speaker 3: Matt Nama told me that the computer registed a change
Speaker 3: of address in nineteen ninety six. But this E was
Speaker 3: Parade Cronulla was one of Bromwin's very old addresses from
Speaker 3: years gone by.
Speaker 8: Well, you're not in a position from your inquiries to
Speaker 8: discount the possibility that Bromwin is the person who in
Speaker 8: fact triggered that change of address.
Speaker 3: Are you there's no way that Bromwin done that inquiry?
Speaker 8: Now, I just want to explore a second last issue
Speaker 8: with you, and it's this, with your experience, considerable experience
Speaker 8: over the years, the likelihood of Bronwin's body being in
Speaker 8: the boot of the car on the evening of sixteen May,
Speaker 8: with Moxi the dog in the back seat, is just
Speaker 8: so highly improbable as to be fanciful, isn't it? That
Speaker 8: would be your view, wouldn't it.
Speaker 3: See we've only got mister Winfield's version, but he states
Speaker 3: that she left the house at nine point thirty pm.
Speaker 3: There's certainly a possibility any time between seven thirty pm
Speaker 3: and shortly before eleven PM mister Winfield could take her out.
Speaker 8: Well, look, the children are awake to late thirty. They
Speaker 8: don't go off to a bed to late thirty.
Speaker 3: Well, even discounting that, okay, right a thirty to just
Speaker 3: before eleven, we've still got two and a half hours.
Speaker 3: Don't know whether the car has gone out once or
Speaker 3: twice or whatever the situation is.
Speaker 8: But I think you've addressed my question. You're not serious.
Speaker 3: Are you saying that the dogs are like a type
Speaker 3: of sniffer dog or something like that, or what.
Speaker 8: You're not seriously contending? Are you that it's likely that
Speaker 8: blond woman was in the boot of the car being
Speaker 8: driven to Sydney with MOPSI the dog in the back seat?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 8: Really or is that a possibility? Is it?
Speaker 3: I've put things there. I didn't make any direct comment
Speaker 3: whether she was put in the boot or not.
Speaker 8: Well, I'm just asking you for your experience.
Speaker 3: Now leave it to the weight the coroner wants to
Speaker 3: put on the evidence.
Speaker 8: You're just not prepared to concede that in your experience,
Speaker 8: it's highly improbable that ron Win was in the boot
Speaker 8: being taken to Sydney with the dog in the back seat.
Speaker 8: That strikes you as fanciful, doesn't it.
Speaker 3: Look I've had probably over thirty to forty murder investigations
Speaker 3: in my service, and I mean, you wouldn't believe what
Speaker 3: people do with bodies. I see unbelievable.
Speaker 8: It would be a very bold move, wouldn't it, to
Speaker 8: have a dog in the back seat with a body
Speaker 8: in a boot?
Speaker 3: As I said, you would not believe what people are
Speaker 3: capable of under stressful situations. What they're going to do
Speaker 3: with the dead body.
Speaker 8: Yes, and sometime between the body going in the boot
Speaker 8: and arriving in Sydney with the two little girls in
Speaker 8: the back seat, the body is disposed of. That's the theory,
Speaker 8: is it. It's just fanciful, isn't it.
Speaker 3: You're suggesting it's not probable. As I said, my experience
Speaker 3: is you don't discount really anything.
Speaker 8: All right, let's move to the final topic, and it's
Speaker 8: the telephone call that I suggest to you Bromwin made
Speaker 8: on eighteen May.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett returned to the purported telephone call supposedly made
Speaker 1: by Bromwin to the hairdressing salon on May eighteen, nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety three. Jody was employed there as a hairdresser, but
Speaker 1: it was her day off, and the caller, whom John
Speaker 1: Winfield would subsequently tell police, was Bromwin, supposedly asked that
Speaker 1: her message be passed to Jody, and the message was
Speaker 1: that Bromwin was never coming back. Glenn Taylor interrupted Craig
Speaker 1: Leggott to make a point for the record.
Speaker 3: Sorry, allegedly, mate.
Speaker 8: That's the topic. That's the topic that I want to
Speaker 8: explore with you. Michelle Flanagan was the owner of the
Speaker 8: hair cutting salon, wasn't she at the relevant date.
Speaker 3: I read it very very quickly. It was handed to
Speaker 3: me just before I went into the witness box. But
Speaker 3: I believe she mentions that she's an owner or part owner,
Speaker 3: or used to be a part owner of the business.
Speaker 8: You see, Michelle Flanagan was not interviewed by you, was she.
Speaker 3: No, No, she wasn't interviewed by me.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 3: We spoke to the alleged person that had taken the
Speaker 3: phone call, which was Robinson.
Speaker 8: Well, I'll ask the questions, thank you, I'll ask the questions.
Speaker 3: Well I'm answering your question.
Speaker 8: No, you're not. With respect, You're not. Let me just
Speaker 8: read to you. Michelle Flanagan says, on Tuesday, eighteen May
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety three, I was on my roster day off.
Speaker 8: Canye Robertson, an employee at the salon, was working that day.
Speaker 8: On my days off, i'd go into the salon and
Speaker 8: check how things were going each day and take the
Speaker 8: takings for the day. I went into the cell on
Speaker 8: this day at about four pm. I recall that on
Speaker 8: this day, Tanya told me that bronin Winfield had called
Speaker 8: and had left a message for Jody that she was
Speaker 8: leaving the kids and going away, and that Jody would
Speaker 8: have to help her father to look after the children. Now,
Speaker 8: just pausing there, You have not interviewed Michelle Flanagan, have
Speaker 8: you no?
Speaker 3: Because it was totally discanted by Tania Roberson, who's denied
Speaker 3: taking any such call.
Speaker 8: Well, you've used the word denied. Can I suggest to
Speaker 8: you with respect that that was rather hasty what Tanier
Speaker 8: Robertson says. This is paragraph three of Tania Robertson's statement,
Speaker 8: I do not recall receiving a telephone call. Now there's
Speaker 8: no denial there. Well, five and a half years later,
Speaker 8: Tanyer is saying I do not recall receiving a phone call.
Speaker 8: That's what she's saying.
Speaker 3: That's what the statement says.
Speaker 8: Your experienced detective Sergeant Taylor. Is that five and a
Speaker 8: half years, for people who are not used to giving
Speaker 8: a witness statement, is a long period of time for
Speaker 8: a memory, isn't it.
Speaker 3: She does add a little bit on the end of
Speaker 3: her statement if you might have a look at that,
Speaker 3: and says, I'm sure that if I had received a
Speaker 3: phone call from Bromwin. I would have remembered it.
Speaker 8: And the reason why she says that is because Bronwin
Speaker 8: was a missing person at the time. That's what she says.
Speaker 8: I was aware at the time Bronwin was a missing
Speaker 8: person and I feel I would remember the call because
Speaker 8: of the circumstances at the time. No one knew that
Speaker 8: Bronwin was a missing person on eighteen May, so that
Speaker 8: can't be a valid reason, can it.
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor explained that at the time Mark Guthrie and
Speaker 1: his family were trying to see Crystal, Mark and his
Speaker 1: family were of the view in nineteen ninety three that
Speaker 1: Cristel was the biological daughter of Mark, when in fact
Speaker 1: Cristel was the biological daughter of Mark Davis.
Speaker 3: It would have been of great assistance to the Guthries
Speaker 3: in their family law aspects if Brown had gone walk
Speaker 3: about up in Queensland and didn't want to be found.
Speaker 3: It was suggested that the girl Robertson was a friend
Speaker 3: of the Guthries and had been put up to say
Speaker 3: that she got a phone call from Brodwin to that
Speaker 3: effect that she wasn't coming back to assist the Guthries
Speaker 3: in their family law plane For Crystal. But the end
Speaker 3: result was, as I said, she doesn't recall, and she said,
Speaker 3: I'm sure I would have recalled.
Speaker 8: She doesn't say that with respect. She says, I do
Speaker 8: not recall. No one I suggest to you, particularly not
Speaker 8: Tania Robertson had any reason to remember whether a phone
Speaker 8: call was made or not, because it just wasn't significant
Speaker 8: as at the eighteenth.
Speaker 3: Well, Jadie worked with Tanya Robinson in the same salon.
Speaker 3: I mean, certainly they would have been discussing them something
Speaker 3: to the fact that Bromwin's gone away.
Speaker 8: She wasn't a missing person. There was nothing suspicious surrounding
Speaker 8: what was happening with Bromwin. Anyway, I'll leave that. I
Speaker 8: think that we'll just end up debating each other on that.
Speaker 4: Are you calling Michelle Flanagan as a witness.
Speaker 8: Well, your worship, I'd certainly like to if I can
Speaker 8: get some assistance.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham stood to raise an issue that he had
Speaker 1: with his counterparts, questioning of Glenn on the evidence of
Speaker 1: Taniel Robertson.
Speaker 2: I think your worship and I haven't objected to my
Speaker 2: friend's cross examination of this witness, but I think the
Speaker 2: flavor that my friend is intending to extract from these sentences.
Speaker 2: It's only one flavor that your Worship is open to
Speaker 2: draw from it. So I think we can investigate that point,
Speaker 2: but I don't think it's going to yield anything productive
Speaker 2: to your Worship in investigating the manner and cause of
Speaker 2: this death. I think that my friend has really split
Speaker 2: a hair, but he's split it fairly, unfairly.
Speaker 1: Your Worship was almost the end of day one and
Speaker 1: the Deputy State Currenter Karl Milavanovitch, and a courtroom full
Speaker 1: of Bromwin's family, friends and acquaintances had listened intently for
Speaker 1: hours as a summary of the entire police investigation was
Speaker 1: read aloud, along with claims that Bromwyn was in fact
Speaker 1: not dead. Karl Milavanovitch hinted at what many in the
Speaker 1: courtroom must have been thinking.
Speaker 13: Well, I think, in fairness to mister Leggett, if there's
Speaker 13: any evidence that is likely to satisfy this court that
Speaker 13: there's a remote possibility that Bronwyn is still alive, that's
Speaker 13: evidence that should be put before the court, but it
Speaker 13: has to be weighed up in terms of the weight
Speaker 13: of that evidence. And that similarly applies to any alleged
Speaker 13: sightings and so forth.
Speaker 4: I think at the end of the day we can
Speaker 4: all come to a.
Speaker 13: Fairly conclusive view that I don't think there's any prospect
Speaker 13: in the world that Bronwyn is still alive, and probably
Speaker 13: there is very little prospect that she was alive for
Speaker 13: much longer after the sixteenth or seventeenth of Maine.
Speaker 1: It was a powerful and probably damning indication of the
Speaker 1: Deputy State Coroner's preliminary view. The challenge for John's lawyer
Speaker 1: was to try to dissuade him from that view. Craig
Speaker 1: Leggett stood up and put forward the alternative scenario.
Speaker 8: Well, you have to be very careful with that, your worship.
Speaker 8: If a coroner was sitting in relation to Bromwn's mother
Speaker 8: at the same point in time as we are, that's
Speaker 8: the conclusion. It probably would have been reached there, and
Speaker 8: that would have been wrong.
Speaker 1: Karl Milavanovitch did not appear moved by the submission.
Speaker 13: Oh no, I think the circumstances are different. There's too
Speaker 13: close a parallel between Bronwyn and her mother, which is
Speaker 13: not fair, and I can see perhaps why that might
Speaker 13: want to be exploited for the benefit of certain known persons.
Speaker 13: But if you look at the situation with Bromwin's mother,
Speaker 13: she did suffer from diagnose schizophrenia. Yes, when she did
Speaker 13: leave and go to England, the children were already in
Speaker 13: the legal custody of her husband. It's not the situation
Speaker 13: here where Bronwin had legal custody, but she had possession
Speaker 13: of the children and on all accounts was plenty to
Speaker 13: move back into the matrimonial home and your custody of
Speaker 13: the children. It's a totally different situation.
Speaker 8: As against that though.
Speaker 13: But as the detective says, there's no diagnosis of schizophrenia,
Speaker 13: although she was going through a difficult time in her life.
Speaker 13: I think a difficult time that was obvious from the circumstances.
Speaker 8: Just before we leave that because as you put your
Speaker 8: finger on it, it's a very important We have Bronwin
Speaker 8: telling family members that something is going to happen and
Speaker 8: that they're all going to be taken by surprise, and
Speaker 8: it's almost in the nature of a threat. She's saying, look,
Speaker 8: I need two thousand dollars and if you don't pay
Speaker 8: it to me, then there's something going to happen which
Speaker 8: you're all going to feel guilty about. Subsequently, and then
Speaker 8: We've got this influence by the Clear Voyant on her,
Speaker 8: as well as telling her that all her problems are
Speaker 8: about to end, and of course the bringing back of
Speaker 8: Crystal's grandparents into Crystal's life. So there are circumstances which
Speaker 8: hunt the other way as well.
Speaker 13: Oh, yes, I've got an open mind, but I was
Speaker 13: simply saying we don't. We shouldn't put too much weight
Speaker 13: on what people are relying on in relation to memory
Speaker 13: going back nine years. The reality is it's two thousand
Speaker 13: and two now and she hasn't operated her bank account,
Speaker 13: she has had no contact with her children. We hear
Speaker 13: she's walking around Nimber this morning. We've had signings of
Speaker 13: Elvis Presley as well, and she's been cited by a
Speaker 13: professional person and Caring bart so on that basis, those
Speaker 13: people are either mistaken or she's certainly not doing very
Speaker 13: much to try and hide her disappearance. She's gone back
Speaker 13: to the area where she virtually grew up in and
Speaker 13: wandering around the streets and shopping and shopping centers. Some
Speaker 13: people might say that seems very, very unlikely, and I
Speaker 13: think that's the point.
Speaker 4: My obligation as a coroner before.
Speaker 13: I even address any other issues is whether I am
Speaker 13: satisfied that she is deceased, the fact that she becomes
Speaker 13: a missing person, people start putting two and two together
Speaker 13: and start remembering here to say conversations, which I don't
Speaker 13: think is particularly helpful. The reality is we've got to
Speaker 13: look at the evidence today and where is she today.
Speaker 13: There's no sightings, she hasn't had any contact with her children.
Speaker 13: The circumstances in the way she left is all, in
Speaker 13: my view, very strong evidence. So what I'm trying to
Speaker 13: say is I'm not going to be particularly convinced in
Speaker 13: relation to sightings as placing much weight on it and
Speaker 13: convincing me that she's not deceased. But I certainly don't
Speaker 13: suggest that you not continue with your life of questioning.
Speaker 13: But it has to be weighed up according to its value.
Speaker 8: Thank you. I'm grateful to you for that. Thank you.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer was nothing if not persistent. He raised again
Speaker 1: the purported Bromwin telephone call to the hairdressing salon.
Speaker 8: And if Kayleen Jones is correct in the call to
Speaker 8: Jody this morning, then there is a person at Nimbon
Speaker 8: who is fitting Bronwin Winfield's description. I don't have anything
Speaker 8: further for this witness.
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor was still sitting patiently waiting to be asked
Speaker 1: further questions. Matt Fordham had one one.
Speaker 2: So where was it the first time that you learned
Speaker 2: that it was suggested that the property at Nuribar may
Speaker 2: in fact be Ernie Kiss's property at Martin's Lane.
Speaker 1: The detective responded that he had just learnt this ownership
Speaker 1: detail during Craig Leggett's cross examination of him. Matt Fordham,
Speaker 1: the police officer with the legal background who was tasked
Speaker 1: with presenting the case, was caught unawares earlier in the
Speaker 1: day because he and Glen Taylor had not known the
Speaker 1: address of the property at Nuribar, nor did they know
Speaker 1: that its owner was somebody called Ernie Kiss. All that
Speaker 1: Scruffy had said was that he was suspicious of a
Speaker 1: property at Nuribar. Scruffy could not recall to whom it belonged.
Speaker 1: John and his lawyer knew those details, and they saved
Speaker 1: them for the cross examination of Glen Taylor through you.
Speaker 2: I'd ask mister Leggett to indicate to your worship all
Speaker 2: the information that might assist your worship in the manner
Speaker 2: and cause of death. I think it's very improper for
Speaker 2: my friend to hide details such as the address of
Speaker 2: the house where that deceeased may in fact be. I
Speaker 2: think it is very improper for that to be hidden
Speaker 2: from you until this late stage.
Speaker 1: When Matt Fordham refers to my friend, he is of
Speaker 1: course directing that at Craig Leggett, not the witness such
Speaker 1: as Scruffy. The Deputy State Coroner, however, didn't seem concerned
Speaker 1: by the legal maneuverings.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think it's being hidden. It was put
Speaker 4: on the record.
Speaker 13: It might have been put on fairly quickly, and you
Speaker 13: may not have taken notes. I don't think I did.
Speaker 13: But if you're prepared to give us that address, mister legant.
Speaker 8: Can I get it to you in the morning. I
Speaker 8: just don't have it right now. Apart from the address
Speaker 8: that I've given you, the name of the person, and
Speaker 8: that Saint Martin's Lane or whatever it was.
Speaker 2: Could I ask, also, sir, through you, is there anything
Speaker 2: else that my friend is hiding from me? It would
Speaker 2: be fairly negative towards the effect of this in whirey
Speaker 2: your worship. In fact, I think that the function of
Speaker 2: this inquest would be defeated if your worship was to
Speaker 2: be presented with these gems of evidence as we go along.
Speaker 2: Surely it's much better for the officer in charge to
Speaker 2: have the opportunity to investigate things like the address of
Speaker 2: the property where the concrete slab is.
Speaker 13: All right, Well, mister Leggett is not under any obligation
Speaker 13: to provide any evidence that might be unfavorable to his client.
Speaker 13: His client is only a witness in these proceedings. But
Speaker 13: certainly if he is in possession of information which is
Speaker 13: contrary to what's contained in the police brief, as a
Speaker 13: matter of procedural or fairness, it should be provided. Otherwise,
Speaker 13: there's no point in me spending weeks going through a
Speaker 13: brief and listening to evidence when there may be some
Speaker 13: evidence that rebuts it. So from that point of view,
Speaker 13: the prosecutor raises a point that we can certainly circumvent
Speaker 13: and go directly to some of the issues that might
Speaker 13: be challenged in the police brief. If you have evidence
Speaker 13: that contradicts that, and I think in fairness, he should
Speaker 13: provide that to my sergeant or to me so that
Speaker 13: we can at least look at it, and it may
Speaker 13: be something that no longer forms part of the brief.
Speaker 8: Then okay, yes, I certainly take that on board.
Speaker 13: I don't know what for example, but if there's receipts
Speaker 13: or bank accounts or things like that that might support
Speaker 13: an alibi or might support a position of being in
Speaker 13: a different place at a different time, and that's contrary
Speaker 13: to the way the police investigation run in terms of
Speaker 13: the fact that this is fact finding mission. It's not
Speaker 13: a criminal court. No one is charged with a criminal offense.
Speaker 13: It's an inquisition to find out what happened to Bronwin.
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
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Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
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Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation.
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