1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,680
Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

2
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

3
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:42,720
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and the Australian. Glenn Taylor

4
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,720
Speaker 1: spent most of the first day of the inquest reading

5
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,400
Speaker 1: aloud a lengthy summary of his investigation into Bromwan's disappearance.

6
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,680
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham, the police sergeant assisting the coroner Karl Milavanovich,

7
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 1: had questions for Glenn, and then it would be John's lawyer,

8
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,160
Speaker 1: Craig legates turn to question the detective who had all

9
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,319
Speaker 1: but named John as an alleged killer. Matt Fordham started

10
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: with easy questions to set the scene.

11
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,679
Speaker 2: Sir, is it the case that when you attended the

12
00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 2: premises at sixty Sandstone Crescent at Lennox Head, a number

13
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,040
Speaker 2: of photographs were taken of those premises? Is that correct?

14
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:23,399
Speaker 3: That's correct?

15
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,479
Speaker 2: And so the second photograph in the sequence that you've

16
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 2: got in front of you, would you agree that it

17
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,120
Speaker 2: depicts a view inside the house where there are a

18
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,760
Speaker 2: number of photographs visible, firstly on the wall facing the

19
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,040
Speaker 2: photographer and secondly on the wall to the left hand

20
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 2: side of the photographer. Yes, that's correct, and that the

21
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,480
Speaker 2: photographs that are on the walls, in particular in the

22
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 2: hallway of the premises, they appear to be the large

23
00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 2: college style photographs. Is that correct? That's correct, and that

24
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 2: each of those three collages would appear to contain anywhere

25
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 2: from twenty to fifty photographs in each frame.

26
00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 4: Would you agree with.

27
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,600
Speaker 3: That that's correct?

28
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 2: So when you examined the premises, did you see any

29
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,720
Speaker 2: photographs of missus Bromwin Winfield in any of those photographs?

30
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,680
Speaker 3: There was not a single photograph anywhere to be found

31
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,079
Speaker 3: of Bromwyn Winfield in that house.

32
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,919
Speaker 2: Could you indicate to us whose photographs you did see

33
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 2: in those photo frames.

34
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 3: There's a number of children, Crystal, Lauren, and Jady. I

35
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 3: recall there's some family photographs of mister Winfield with the children.

36
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 3: I didn't see any of the missing person. I even

37
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:42,280
Speaker 3: commented at the.

38
00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,720
Speaker 1: Tong Michelle and Andy Reid told me something about this

39
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 1: when they were describing an impromptu visit to the Sandstone

40
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,079
Speaker 1: Crescent House in nineteen ninety eight.

41
00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 5: He's a reminder from episode ten.

42
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,239
Speaker 6: Even though we were suspicious, and or had boone suspicious,

43
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,360
Speaker 6: we just wanted to see the kids and.

44
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 3: We just thought, let's just do it. Romlin was white.

45
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,079
Speaker 7: There was not one photo of their mother. There were

46
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,799
Speaker 7: photos of the kids and other family photos, but there

47
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,960
Speaker 7: was not one picture of their mom.

48
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:21,239
Speaker 3: Go on.

49
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:23,080
Speaker 8: I couldn't believe it.

50
00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 6: I just thought, why are two kids being raised in

51
00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,240
Speaker 6: the manner that they're being forced to forget their mother?

52
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 6: It was quite daunting just to think that not one

53
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 6: thing was left in the house that had any full

54
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:40,120
Speaker 6: memory of their mum.

55
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,800
Speaker 2: And so is it the case that before today you

56
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 2: made some inquiries with respect to Detective Sergeant Graham Diskin.

57
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 3: Yes I did.

58
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 2: And is it the case that you were informed that

59
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 2: he was unfortunately too unwell to attend court or indeed

60
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,720
Speaker 2: participate in any work in relation to this matter? Is

61
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 2: that correct?

62
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,840
Speaker 3: Yes, he's off in the care of his doctor. He

63
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 3: has a doctor's certificate current to November this year that

64
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 3: is unfit your can work or give evidence.

65
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,839
Speaker 2: So, from your experience of life generally, are you able

66
00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,600
Speaker 2: to indicate to the court whether it's possible to drive

67
00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 2: from Ballina to Sydney without stopping by using just a

68
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,080
Speaker 2: normal Ford Falcon petrol tank full of petrol or would

69
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,719
Speaker 2: it require both petrol and gas to make the journey I.

70
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,360
Speaker 3: Would say it most definitely would have required both gas

71
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 3: and fuel to get that distance. It would be some

72
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,479
Speaker 3: eight hundred and forty eight hundred and fifty kilometers, so

73
00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 3: it would be very doubtful whether a car could get

74
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 3: there on one tank of ordinary fuel.

75
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 1: Some of those present recalled that there was a tension

76
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 1: in the courtroom over an unexpected turn of events. On

77
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:58,640
Speaker 1: the first morning, outside court, John's daughter Jody had turned

78
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,400
Speaker 1: up and breezily toed a few of those present, including

79
00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,080
Speaker 1: Andy Reid, that his sister Bromwin was apparently alive and

80
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 1: well and living up the road in the hippie community

81
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 1: of Nimben. Jody's suggestions that Bromwin had been seen about

82
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 1: forty kilometers north of where an inquest was inquiring into

83
00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,919
Speaker 1: her presumed deaths stunned Bromwin's friends and family members. Most

84
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:29,479
Speaker 1: were deeply skeptical. Here's Bromwin's neighbor and confidante, Deb Hall.

85
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 9: I recall being at the courthouse in the morning. We're

86
00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,599
Speaker 9: all outside the court. It hadn't gone in as yet,

87
00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,640
Speaker 9: and Jody, I think, was the one that was talking

88
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,080
Speaker 9: amongst people that she got a message to say that

89
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,120
Speaker 9: Bromwin had been sighted or seen in Nimben. To me,

90
00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 9: it seemed not really credible, but that was something that

91
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,799
Speaker 9: was being bandied around before we actually went into the court.

92
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 9: I thought, why would you bring that up? Why is

93
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,280
Speaker 9: that happening right this minute? What didn't they ring all

94
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,000
Speaker 9: let them know before this?

95
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,000
Speaker 1: Jody went to the police officers Glen Taylor and Matt

96
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,920
Speaker 1: Fordham in the morning to report this crucial new information.

97
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 1: She told them that she had received a phone call

98
00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,440
Speaker 1: around eight thirty am that morning from a woman called Kayleen.

99
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 1: Jody handed Glenn and Matt a piece of paper with

100
00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,960
Speaker 1: notes that she'd made during the phone call with Kayleen.

101
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,159
Speaker 10: The note states, Joan says she's out nimb and weh

102
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,880
Speaker 10: they know and Joan lives in Sydney.

103
00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,920
Speaker 1: Glenn and Matt had important questions. This disclosure from Jody

104
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,960
Speaker 1: needed to be investigated as a.

105
00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 5: Matter of priority.

106
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,919
Speaker 1: Jody seemed to believe that it was true and it

107
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,960
Speaker 1: could change everything. But if not true, why was Jody

108
00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 1: pressing it and who is Kayleen? Kayleen's friend Joanne Guthrie

109
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,960
Speaker 1: was the purported source of the remarkable version which Jody

110
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,480
Speaker 1: was talking about. Could Joanne confirm that Bromwin was in

111
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 1: fact alive and living somewhere out nimben Wey. Glenn worked

112
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 1: through the lunchtime adjournment. On day one, he telephoned joe

113
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,480
Speaker 1: Aanne Guthrie, a woman he had spoken to three years prior,

114
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 1: as part of his investigation. Joanne had been one of

115
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,000
Speaker 1: Bromwin's good friends from their teenage years in the shire,

116
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,200
Speaker 1: and Bromwin was bridesmaid at Joanne's wedding when she married

117
00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 1: Craig Guthrie. And Craig Guthrie was the brother of Mark Guthrie,

118
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 1: the man with whom Bromwin had a relationship. You've heard

119
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:45,160
Speaker 1: in a previous episode that Mark Guthrie believed mistakenly for

120
00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 1: years that he was Crystal's father. On the afternoon of

121
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 1: day one, Matt Fordham asked Glenn about the unusual events

122
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 1: which had been unfolding in the background throughout the day.

123
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,520
Speaker 2: And sir, is it the case that you've made some

124
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,440
Speaker 2: inquiries in relation to a conversation that you had during

125
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,360
Speaker 2: the morning to your adjournment with Jody Maine. Firstly, it

126
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,520
Speaker 2: was said to you by miss Main that she'd received

127
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 2: a phone call at eight thirty this morning.

128
00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,480
Speaker 3: Yes, she said that she received a phone call about

129
00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,440
Speaker 3: eight point thirty from a female named Kayleen.

130
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 2: And did she say to you what Kaylen said to

131
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,360
Speaker 2: her on the phone this morning, Well.

132
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,800
Speaker 3: Not exactly the words, but words to the effect of

133
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,680
Speaker 3: Kayleen had received information from a joe Ane Guthrie alleging

134
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,080
Speaker 3: that the missing person brom and Winfield, was living in Nimbu.

135
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,680
Speaker 2: And so is it the case that over the Luncheon

136
00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,840
Speaker 2: adjournment you've made some inquiries with Joanne Guthrie? Is that correct?

137
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 3: I made a phone call spoke to Joeanne Guthrie on

138
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,760
Speaker 3: the telephone. Joanne Guthrie was actually surprised with me contacting

139
00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,440
Speaker 3: her because we hadn't spoken to her for some years.

140
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 3: She states that at no stage has she ever said

141
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,840
Speaker 3: anything to Kayleen that bromwin was living at mendone. She

142
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:10,640
Speaker 3: supplied me with a last name of Kayleen, being Kayleen Jones.

143
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:12,320
Speaker 8: And after court.

144
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,120
Speaker 3: Finishes today, I've got to ring her back and try

145
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,080
Speaker 3: to find out the current phone number for this Kayleen

146
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,679
Speaker 3: and try to shed some more light on it.

147
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 2: And Sir, is that a matter that you'd like to

148
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 2: give some further evidence about at a later stage in

149
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,439
Speaker 2: this inquest? Is that direct?

150
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,040
Speaker 1: Yes, Kayleen Jones has not featured in this podcast series

151
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,160
Speaker 1: until now. As one of Bromwin's oldest friends from her

152
00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,920
Speaker 1: teenage and young adult years, Kayleen remembers the willowy girl

153
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,080
Speaker 1: from the Shire fondly. She recalls speaking with Jody in

154
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 1: a telephone conversation on the morning of the first day

155
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 1: of the inquest, but Kayleen's version of what Jody said

156
00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 1: is quite different to Jody's version of what was said

157
00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 1: during that phone and call. Both Kayleen and Jody were

158
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,439
Speaker 1: called to give evidence on day two about this unusual

159
00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,280
Speaker 1: turn of events, You're going to hear much more about

160
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,559
Speaker 1: it in the next episode.

161
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:14,600
Speaker 5: Late on the.

162
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,760
Speaker 1: First day, it was the lawyer Craig Legate's turn to

163
00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,280
Speaker 1: grill the police detective Glenn Taylor. Craig put his best

164
00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,840
Speaker 1: foot forward for his client, John Winfield, who everybody knew

165
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,679
Speaker 1: was being implicated as Bromwin's likely killer. The lawyer began

166
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,959
Speaker 1: by zeroing in on the suggestion that John had told

167
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,599
Speaker 1: witnesses words to the effect of, I've already lost two houses.

168
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 5: Before, and I'm not going to lose another.

169
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 8: One, Sergeant. It seems to be an important part of

170
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 8: your case theory that the two former wives got the

171
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,920
Speaker 8: two houses and mister Winfield was going to ensure that

172
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,320
Speaker 8: that never happened again. That was part of your thinking process,

173
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 8: isn't it.

174
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 3: Well, When I say it's part of it, it's part

175
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,800
Speaker 3: of our investigation process, I mean well, interview possibly anyone

176
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,560
Speaker 3: and everyone that could thought of shedding any knowledge on

177
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 3: this inquiry.

178
00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,480
Speaker 8: It's one of the factors. It's one of the reasons

179
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,800
Speaker 8: that you give, isn't it for coming to your conclusion?

180
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,000
Speaker 3: Well, in certain evidence of tendency, evidence in relation to

181
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,360
Speaker 3: domestic situations in mister Winfield's previous relationships.

182
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,320
Speaker 8: And the tendency you say is because he'd lost houses

183
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,200
Speaker 8: to two wives, he was not going to lose this

184
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 8: third house. That's your process of thinking, isn't it.

185
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 1: We have been referring to John's second wife in this

186
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,840
Speaker 1: podcast investigation as D and that's been deliberate. She asked

187
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,000
Speaker 1: for that kind of anonymity. We have decided to refer

188
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 1: to her as D in these reconstructed exchanges in the

189
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: Lismore courtroom.

190
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 3: Well, the evidence that he wasn't going to lose the

191
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 3: house on this occasion was provided by other witnesses. He

192
00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,559
Speaker 3: wasn't provided by me and then other people have suggested

193
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,880
Speaker 3: that to me, I only carry that forward. Certainly D

194
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 3: indicated that she went through a difficult property settlement.

195
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 8: Have you looked carefully? I asked, with respect at D's

196
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:19,080
Speaker 8: record of interview. Her statement yes, her statement yes, And

197
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 8: it's apparent from that, isn't it that D did not

198
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 8: end up with the house? Didn't that become apparent to

199
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:26,600
Speaker 8: you in reading it?

200
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,160
Speaker 3: She had difficultly, she had to get a sorcerer.

201
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 8: Well, just address my question, if you'd be kind enough.

202
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,640
Speaker 3: I have to go over the statement again.

203
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 8: But well, let's do it. Let me take you to it.

204
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,480
Speaker 3: I know from memory that she said that she had

205
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 3: difficulties getting her share of the property settlement.

206
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,040
Speaker 8: And did you explore with D the fact she didn't

207
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,520
Speaker 8: end up with the house following the property settlement?

208
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 3: My recollection was that she told me that she had

209
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 3: difficulties getting her share. I believe she definitely got some

210
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 3: things from the settlement. I'm not sure exactly what she got.

211
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:09,079
Speaker 3: She certainly had difficulties, allegedly due to mister Winfield's reluctance

212
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,320
Speaker 3: to provide her with a fair settlement.

213
00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,360
Speaker 1: I spoke to DE about the difficulties that she experienced.

214
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,600
Speaker 1: He's a reminder from episode three. And then you say

215
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 1: John was quite bitter about the settlement following our separation.

216
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, because he had to sell the house.

217
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 6: We separated, so then I had to go for settlement.

218
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 4: And I've always been a saber and.

219
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,920
Speaker 9: I had money, And what I put into the house

220
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,839
Speaker 9: is only what I took out. I wasn't taking more

221
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,600
Speaker 9: than what I actually put in.

222
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 1: You say John didn't want to give me anything, No, well,

223
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 1: how would that have worked out?

224
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 11: No?

225
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,080
Speaker 3: Well, that's why I had to go.

226
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 9: I went to court to get a settlement.

227
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,640
Speaker 1: I had to get a solicitor and go to court

228
00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 1: to get my share of the property.

229
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, we went to court and it was sort of

230
00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:04,280
Speaker 3: out in court.

231
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,840
Speaker 8: Now, similarly, in relation to the first wife, Jennifer Mason,

232
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 8: you're aware that Jennifer Mason didn't end up with the

233
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,439
Speaker 8: house following the property settlement as well, aren't you.

234
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 3: There's quite a lot in Missus Mason's statement. I'm not

235
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,920
Speaker 3: sure where it talked about settlement in there. Well, see

236
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,240
Speaker 3: I know that they said about building a home.

237
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 8: If it's a case that neither Missus Mason, the first wife,

238
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,240
Speaker 8: or d the second wife ended up with the house.

239
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 8: That just blows apart your theory of this being the

240
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,360
Speaker 8: third woman in a row to get a house.

241
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,440
Speaker 3: Well, as I said, there's no theory. This is what

242
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 3: allegedly mister Winfield has told other witnesses who were able

243
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 3: to give evidence in this inquiry, that he said, where's

244
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,040
Speaker 3: the effect. I've already lost two houses. I'm not going

245
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 3: to lose another one. These are words that mister Winfield

246
00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 3: allegedly said to other witnesses. All Right, I just produce

247
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:01,800
Speaker 3: what I'm told by the witnesses.

248
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,880
Speaker 1: Next, Craig Leggett turned to the crucial evidence of Bromwin's

249
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 1: neighbor Murray Nolan. Murray told Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety

250
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,960
Speaker 1: eight that on the night Bromwin disappeared, he was watching

251
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,000
Speaker 1: TV in his living room before eleven PM and he

252
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 1: heard the Winfield family car roll down the driveway. He

253
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,240
Speaker 1: got up and looked out and he saw the car

254
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 1: with engine and lights off, scrape the bottom of the

255
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,160
Speaker 1: driveway where it met the road, then back out and

256
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 1: rolled down Sandstone Crescent. At the bottom of the street,

257
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 1: Murray observed the engine and lights of the car turn on.

258
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 1: And this evidence raises a point which Craig Leggett wanted

259
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,080
Speaker 1: to explore with the detective if all of that's true,

260
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 1: why didn't Murray come forward in nineteen ninety three, five

261
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 1: years before he disclosed it to Glenn Taylor.

262
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 8: Let me go onto something else. Mister Nolan, the next

263
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 8: door neighbor who reported the car movements on sixteen May,

264
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,960
Speaker 8: was interviewed by Detective Sergeant Discan in that two month

265
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,720
Speaker 8: interview period immediately after sixteen May. Wasn't he?

266
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 3: I know he was spoken to it?

267
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 8: And can I suggest to you that mister Nolan in

268
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 8: those interviews with Detective Sergeant Discan didn't say anything about

269
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 8: the lights not being on or the car being treated

270
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 8: in any unusual fashion. And can I just finish the

271
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 8: question this way, because I suggest to you, I suggest

272
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 8: to you that mister Nolan must not have reported that

273
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 8: to Detective Sergeant Discan, or Detective Sergeant Discan would have

274
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,440
Speaker 8: raised that with John Winfield. And from your analysis of

275
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,360
Speaker 8: Detective Sergeant Discin's no, it's evidence that that line of

276
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,720
Speaker 8: inquiry was pursued with mister Winfield. Do you understand the question.

277
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,439
Speaker 3: First of all, the best person really asked would be

278
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:11,480
Speaker 3: mister Nolan.

279
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,639
Speaker 8: Or Detective Sergeant Discan, and you're not going to make

280
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,200
Speaker 8: him available, as I understand.

281
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 3: Well, it's not that I'm not going to make him available.

282
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,160
Speaker 3: His doctor says he can't be evolable. Yes, but mister

283
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,120
Speaker 3: Nolan is certainly going to be called, so he will

284
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,359
Speaker 3: be available. I'm sure you'll be able to canvas that

285
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 3: with him.

286
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:36,440
Speaker 8: Well, just using your experience as an experienced police officer.

287
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 3: I believe the inquiry, certainly in its early stages in

288
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, was looked upon as a missing person inquiry,

289
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 3: and there was no typewritten statements taken from neighbors and

290
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,680
Speaker 3: other potential witnesses.

291
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 8: That's the very point I suggest to you, Detective Sergeant,

292
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,280
Speaker 8: that if mister Nolan had said to Detective Sergeant Discan,

293
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,360
Speaker 8: look what I saw two days ago. Well, however long ago,

294
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,439
Speaker 8: it was fairly fresh in his mind. Look, Detective Sergeant Discan,

295
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 8: the lights were off, the car was being driven down

296
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 8: the driveway in a very unusual fashion. If that had

297
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,720
Speaker 8: been suggested, it wouldn't have been simply a missing person investigation,

298
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:14,119
Speaker 8: would it.

299
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,119
Speaker 3: As I said, I think mister Nolan is the best

300
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,640
Speaker 3: person to ask about that. Whether he did tell Detective

301
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,239
Speaker 3: Sergeant disc and that information. Certainly I didn't see it

302
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,440
Speaker 3: recorded in any of the running shirts.

303
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,160
Speaker 8: Indeed, indeed, and mister Nolan was next interviewed some five

304
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 8: and a half years after the event, wasn't he.

305
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,160
Speaker 3: In a statement not long after we commence the reinvestigation

306
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 3: because we were approached to have a fresh look at

307
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,360
Speaker 3: the investigation, That's what we did.

308
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 8: I understand. But there seemed to be two objective facts

309
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,200
Speaker 8: that Detective Sergeant Discan spoke to mister Nolan while events

310
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 8: were still fresh in mister Nolan's memory in journe July

311
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,480
Speaker 8: of nineteen ninety three, and then ove and a half

312
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,440
Speaker 8: years later, mister Nolan is interviewed again and he appears

313
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 8: to say something that was inconsistent.

314
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 3: But I honestly cannot answer your question properly because I

315
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 3: don't know if mister Nolan told Detective Sergeant Discan that

316
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 3: information or not.

317
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 8: All right, just one last question before I leave that topic.

318
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,920
Speaker 8: It beggars belief. I suggest to you, as a professional policeman,

319
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,880
Speaker 8: that if Detective Sergeant Discan had been told by mister

320
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,199
Speaker 8: Nolan back in nineteen ninety three that the lights were

321
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 8: off and that the car was acting in an unusual

322
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 8: manner in the way it was being driven down the driveway,

323
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,760
Speaker 8: that detective Sergeant Discan wouldn't have pursued that with both

324
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 8: mister Nolan and with mister Winfield.

325
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 3: I simply said, it's speculation, because I honestly don't know

326
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 3: whether mister Nolan provided to check your Sergeant Discan that information.

327
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 3: It's speculative.

328
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 1: The coroner asked where in the police brief there was

329
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,360
Speaker 1: a note or a record of a conversation between the

330
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 1: detective Graham Discan and John's neighbor, Murray Nolan.

331
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,880
Speaker 8: I have them, you're worship as a documentary exhibit.

332
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 3: I think all it says is that he spoke to neighbors.

333
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 1: The coroner went to the point, was there a definitive

334
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 1: statement or suggestion in any document, any statement or running

335
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 1: sheet to establish that Detective Discan did speak for any

336
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,119
Speaker 1: length of time to Murray Nolan in nineteen ninety three.

337
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 3: Well, in nineteen ninety three, they didn't take any statements.

338
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,919
Speaker 3: It appears that the investigation was all by way of

339
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,159
Speaker 3: speaking to people and then recording very short summaries on

340
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 3: a series of ongoing running sheets.

341
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: For Murray Nolan, who was still to give his evidence.

342
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: The amount of time spent by John's lawyer on Murray's

343
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,919
Speaker 1: failure to tell police in nineteen ninety three what he

344
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 1: says he saw to have filled him with confidence Murray

345
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 1: would be called to give evidence on day three of

346
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: the inquest. You'll recall that Murray told me about what

347
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 1: he decided to disclose and what he decided to keep

348
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: from Detective disc And in nineteen ninety three, so they

349
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,359
Speaker 1: clearly spoke. Murray's actions back then are very hard to

350
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 1: reconcile with his efforts since here's a reminder of what

351
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: Murray said in episode eight.

352
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 5: Was that obvious to me?

353
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 12: It was that obvious to me that he'd killed her

354
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,959
Speaker 12: because of all she's going to miss in twenty eleven.

355
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 12: And well, I'm gonna stay at this because not resting

356
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 12: three or four days, like it was that obvious.

357
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: What about when Discin started investigating soon after she disappeared.

358
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 8: Now I told him nothing, Well, what had you decided

359
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 8: for yourself?

360
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 5: Well, I just thought I'm staying out of this. He's

361
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 5: my friend.

362
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,959
Speaker 12: I've got to live next door to him, and I'm

363
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 12: going to serve for him, and I just what I'm

364
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 12: staying out at it was just toooust a mistaken.

365
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 5: At the time.

366
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: As the questioning of the detective Glenn Taylor continued, he

367
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: raised the fact of the mistaken assumption of Detective disc

368
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: In about the Sunday two thirteen pm phone call.

369
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, there was a bit of weight put on there

370
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 3: about this phone call being made at two thirteen am,

371
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 3: when in fact it was two thirteen pm the previous day.

372
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: The Deputy State Coroner was right across it.

373
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 13: Yes, we know that's probably distracted the focus of the investigation.

374
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 4: Unfortunately.

375
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett next raised the theory put forward by Ian Glewis,

376
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: and we all know him as Scruffy, the theory that

377
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: Bromin's body may have been buried at a building site,

378
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: but not in Ilwang in Uribar, a small village northwest

379
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: of Lennox Head.

380
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 8: Let's move to the Nieribar property and your theory there

381
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 8: seems to be that mister Winfield buried bronwin under the

382
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 8: concrete in the slab.

383
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 3: No, I didn't. Mister Glewis has a possible sedestion there.

384
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 3: I don't have a theory on that. As I said

385
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 3: I record, we're the gatherers of the evidence so to speak.

386
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 3: As investigators, Yes, I could come to some conclusions like

387
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 3: at the end of my statement, but I don't have

388
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 3: a theory so to speak, that Bromain was buried under

389
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 3: a foot of concrete at Nuribar. But if things were

390
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 3: raised by witnesses, we will endeavored to pursue those aspects.

391
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: So far in the podcast we have seriously discussed two

392
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: potential sites. Lake Ainsworth, a short drive from the Windfield

393
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent home, and the property in Illewong in the

394
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: Shire south of Sydney, where John worked as a bricklayer.

395
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: But in the lead up to the inquest, Scruffy was

396
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: promoting a theory that a property under construction at Nuribar

397
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: possibly held Bromin's remains. Neither Lake Ainsworth nor Illawong got

398
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: so much as a look in at the inquest.

399
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 8: Well, let's look at what you did pursue that.

400
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: There's nothing I could pursue. Well, for starters, mister Winfield

401
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 3: was working in Sydney at the time. He wasn't working

402
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 3: at Nuribar.

403
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 8: Are you saying that you've now satisfied yourself because of

404
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 8: the likely chronology that there's nothing in this Newybar concrete

405
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 8: slab trail to warn't going down.

406
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: No, I haven't satisfied myself because it's an area there

407
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 3: that could there could be room there to follow up.

408
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 3: But we just do not know where that location is.

409
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 3: And then exact time frame where mister Winfield was working

410
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: on this Newybar house we haven't been able to establish.

411
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 8: Well, let's do it step by step. It wouldn't matter

412
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 8: if the concrete slab was poured before sixteen May nineteen

413
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 8: ninety three, because we all know bromwin was alive on

414
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 8: sixteen May nineteen ninety three. Agreed, Agreed, So the only

415
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 8: relevance can be if the concrete slab was laid sometime

416
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 8: after sixteen May ninety ninety three. It's got to be logical,

417
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 8: doesn't it.

418
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: That's correct. We just simply don't know where the property is.

419
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 8: Well, just stay with me. If it was laid before

420
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 8: sixteen May nineteen ninety three, it's quite irrelevant because Bronwyn

421
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 8: was alive on sixteen May nineteen ninety three. That's right,

422
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 8: isn't it.

423
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: You've agreed it's irrelevant to the point that if she's

424
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: under the slab.

425
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 8: Because she couldn't be under the slab, That's right, exactly. Now,

426
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 8: the evidence is that mister Winfield was not seen in

427
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 8: the Lenoxhead area for some two weeks after sixteen May

428
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 8: ninety ninety three. The evidence seems to suggest he was

429
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 8: in Sydney.

430
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 5: Agreed, that's correct.

431
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 8: So if he was to put Bromwin in the concrete

432
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 8: slab at some stage, the body must have been stored

433
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 8: somewhere for a couple of weeks. That's part of the

434
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 8: th isn't it.

435
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 3: You're saying this word theory. I've never suggested a theory

436
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 3: to start. I just say what mister Glewis has told

437
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 3: me and included in the brief if now, I don't

438
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: know what point in time they could have formed this

439
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 3: and didn't pour the concrete till a month later. I

440
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 3: honestly don't know. I'm not a builder. Things might get

441
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 3: formed up ready to pour concrete, and for one reason

442
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 3: or another, perhaps it's whether or the concrete or not

443
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 3: being a viable or whatever, perhaps the slab is not

444
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 3: actually poured for three to four weeks half it's formed up.

445
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: Our biggest problem is we don't know the exact chronology,

446
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 3: and secondly, we don't know what the location of this

447
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: property at Nurriba.

448
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 8: All right? Can I suggest to you the property is

449
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 8: Ernie Kiss's property at Nirriba Martin's Lane, Nuriba. And can

450
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 8: I suggest to you that you could have found that

451
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 8: out simply by speaking to mister Glewis about which jobs

452
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 8: he was working on in the nineteen ninety three period.

453
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 8: But because you thought there was so little weight in

454
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 8: the point, you didn't bother investigating it.

455
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: No, that's not true, and mister Glewis is going to

456
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 3: give evidence as well. Yes, he was specifically asked could

457
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 3: he go out and locate that property? He was unable

458
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: to do it.

459
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 8: I'm asking about a specific matter, and that is your

460
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 8: failure to investigate.

461
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 3: Is not a failure to investigate where.

462
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 8: Mister Lewis was working at that period in time in

463
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety three.

464
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 3: Well, I've asked the direct source. He doesn't know.

465
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 8: All right. You know, don't you that he was working

466
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 8: in the building industry in ninety ninety three. You're aware of.

467
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 3: That he was one of probably many people on specific

468
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 3: locations houses being built. Again, you're probably best to ask

469
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 3: mister Glewis why he.

470
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: Can't locate the house. The white Ford Falcon sedan, which

471
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: John drove from the house in Sandstone Crescent on the

472
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: night Bromwin disappeared was always an old, obvious potential crime scene.

473
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: It should have been subjected to forensic examination during the

474
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: first police investigation by Graham Diskin in nineteen ninety three.

475
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: You'll recall that the vehicle's registration had expired in May

476
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: of that year, and that John renewed the redgo at

477
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: a place called Miranda in the Shire south of Sydney

478
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: on the afternoon of Monday May seventeen. John would drive

479
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: the same car for another four years until May nineteen

480
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: ninety seven. He got rid of the Ford Falcon one

481
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: year before. Glenn Taylor came on the scene as the

482
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: investigating detective.

483
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: And we said where did it go to? And he said,

484
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: I sold to a recon yard. It's solid for scrap metals.

485
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: We didn't think the car existed any further. I think

486
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: we rang several recognards. Do you have any recollection of

487
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: a person named John Winville selling a Ford Falcon as

488
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 3: a wreck for scrap metal?

489
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 11: I don't believe we ever located the car where it

490
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 11: was salted. It wasn't so like an ordinary car to

491
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 11: somebody else, but he couldn't recall which wrecking out it was.

492
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: We do not believe that the vehicle has survived, but

493
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: anything's possible that was crushed.

494
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 4: Well, that's what I was told by joining.

495
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: Ronman's cousin, Megan Reid is referring to detective Inspector George Radmore,

496
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: who ran a homicide investigation from two thousand and nine,

497
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: and we're going to have a good look at that

498
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: investigation after the inquest episodes.

499
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 8: Putting in another way, the white Falcon was available for

500
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 8: inspections for about four years after the disappearance of ronwin

501
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 8: wasn't it inspection by the police.

502
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: It would have been available to detect your so to

503
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 3: disking if he was the original person in charge of

504
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: the inquiry. It certainly wasn't avilable when we started the reinvestigation.

505
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 8: And it's hardly the case that mister Winfield gets rid

506
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 8: of the car as soon as possible, because there's potential

507
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 8: bloodstains or something in the boot. He's driving that car

508
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 8: around for four years, isn't he.

509
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: That's right, he didn't get rid of it.

510
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 8: No, Now, your records show that Bronwin made a number

511
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 8: of phone calls to country Link train timetable inquiry line

512
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 8: of four May, five May and twelve May. That's what

513
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 8: your inquiries show, don't they.

514
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 3: I believe you're talking about what Disco and had established.

515
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 8: Yes, well that forms part of your inquiry, doesn't it.

516
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 3: Yes?

517
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 8: And those dates are right? Does that jog your memory?

518
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 3: Well, that's going by what the runny sheets say.

519
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: It is possible that the country Link phone calls were

520
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: related to the planned visit by Bronwin's sister, Kim Marshall.

521
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: Kim had options to take a train or a bus

522
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: from Sydney, her first destination after leaving Tasmania for the

523
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: trip to the mainland.

524
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 8: Now a detective Sergeant Diskin's running sheet records Bromwin making

525
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 8: a statement very soon prior to sixteen May were in effect,

526
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 8: she says, your people are all going to be astonished

527
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 8: in the future. I'm not going to be around. You

528
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 8: can remember a statement to that effect.

529
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: I think I mentioned that in my overview statement.

530
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: The closest comments in Graham Diskins's running sheet to those

531
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: words are those recorded as coming from Bromwin's cousin Meghan

532
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: Reid and the words which Bromwin purportedly spoke to Megan

533
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: were quote you will all pay, and quote none of

534
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: you will know what is happening. But did Bromman say

535
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: those words to Megan or to Meghan's mother, Leah, because

536
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: a similar version is in Lea's statement. The Running Sheets

537
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: also record Megan claiming that Bromwin was a user of

538
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: cannabis and a flower child who may very well be

539
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: living on a commune somewhere, perhaps somewhere like Nimben. Claims

540
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: like those were contradicted fiercely by others, including Bromwin's very

541
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: close friends, and to this day Meghan is adamant that

542
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: an impersonator had told Graham Diskin the information recorded as

543
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: having come from Megan.

544
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 8: Now, did you interview Bromin's mother? You didn't go to Tasmania?

545
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 8: I don't think, did you?

546
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: I didn't go.

547
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 8: No, But when you read the statement from Bromwin's mother,

548
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 8: did it strike you that there were similarities between what

549
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 8: the mother had done and what Bronwyn might have done.

550
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 11: No?

551
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 8: You see, Bromwin's mother took off, leaving Bronwin and young

552
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 8: Andrew both as preschoolers, and had no contact with them

553
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 8: for eleven years. That's as you understand the facts, isn't it.

554
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 3: But Bromwin didn't suffer from schizophrenia. There was nothing to

555
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: suggest that she suffered from any mental illness or schizophrenia.

556
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 8: Right, well, let's just deal with the mental illness part.

557
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 8: You've read in the statements of evidence, Bronwan's saying that

558
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 8: mister Penny and the Clearvoyant was the spirit of her

559
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 8: dead father. You've recalled Bromwin recounting that to a family friend,

560
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 8: haven't she.

561
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: I think it was something in fact in the running

562
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: shees from Diskin. Is it something about the clear Voyant?

563
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 8: Yes, the Clearvoyant Bronwin said was the spirit of her

564
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 8: dead father. Now does strike you as being a rational statement?

565
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 3: Nope, I can't speculate because I didn't speak to the

566
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: clairvoyant back in nineteen ninety three. I did speak to

567
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 3: him in nineteen ninety eight, and he didn't recall very

568
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: much about her at all.

569
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 8: You see, there's a statement, and I'll take the witness

570
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 8: to it, but I just wanted to explore it with you.

571
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 8: Bronwin told one of the family members that the clairvoint

572
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 8: Pendragon had told her that a man was going to

573
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 8: come into her life and take her away from everything,

574
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 8: and all the problems would be solved. Can you remember that?

575
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: Being recounted, John's story has consistently painted Bronwin as being unstable,

576
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: suffering from some kind of undiagnosed mental illness. When I

577
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: approached John before the start of this podcast series and

578
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: invited him to put his side of the story, he

579
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: replied that the Reed family had what he called a

580
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: history of mental illness. It was perhaps unsurprising that John

581
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: instructed his lawyer, Craig Leggett to try to depict Bromwin

582
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: as a woman who might have left because, according to John,

583
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: Bromwin was mentally unwell.

584
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 3: I suppose when you go to a clearvoint, I mean,

585
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: a lot of people hope to hear all thoughts the things,

586
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 3: and they probably do tell them all thoughts the things.

587
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 3: But if you go into Tarrey card reading, I honestly

588
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: don't know. But all I do know is from all

589
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 3: the people witnesses I spoke to and all the family members,

590
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: there was nothing at all to suggest that Bromwin had

591
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 3: any form of mental illness or schizophrenia. Prior to her disappearance.

592
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: She might have been said, she might have been lonely,

593
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 3: she might have been short of money. All those things

594
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: come with possibly being sad. But there's not one thing

595
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: to suggest that she was going to leave the kids

596
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 3: or leave the Lennox Head area. There was nothing there

597
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 3: at all. I mean, not one iota of similarity. What

598
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: you're suggesting between her mother and Broman's disappearance, that they're

599
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 3: linked together by mental illness.

600
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 8: Broman got in touch with quite out of the blue,

601
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 8: with Crystal's grandparents within the two weeks prior to her

602
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 8: disappearance and set up a link between Crystal's grandparents and Crystal.

603
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 8: It was quite out of the blue, it wasn't it.

604
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 3: I mean, if you go through her phone records there

605
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 3: in Byron Street just prior to the disappearance, I think

606
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 3: she was in contact with quite a few people.

607
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 8: But she hadn't been in touch with Crystal's grandparents ever

608
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 8: leading up to that. As far as your inquiry is established,

609
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 8: that's right, isn't it.

610
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 3: No? No, I don't think so.

611
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 8: See. I suggest to you that Bronwin was setting up

612
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 8: the safety nets so that she could go off the

613
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 8: way her mother had left her for some eleven years.

614
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 8: How do you respond to that? As to your inquiries

615
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 8: just don't agree with that.

616
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: John's lawyer pivoted. Now it was time to suggest Bronwin

617
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: had been living somewhere incognito.

618
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 8: Now let's look at some potential sightings. Jane Johnson is

619
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 8: a fifty two year old woman who is now practicing

620
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 8: as a clinical psychologist. That is, as far as you

621
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 8: understand it isn't it.

622
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: Yes, she's in Sydney. I'm not sure what her occupation

623
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 3: is now.

624
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 8: And the clinical psychologist the last sentence in paragraph thirteen says,

625
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 8: I am ninety five percent sure that this person was Bronwin,

626
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 8: even though she didn't respond. This is referring to a

627
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 8: Sunday in January of nineteen ninety four in the Cronulla Plaza. Now,

628
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 8: what if anything, have you done to explore that particular

629
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 8: statement with Jane Johnson.

630
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: We've taken a statement from Jane Johnson. Is that the

631
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: statement you're referring to, Yes.

632
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 8: And this is from a person who's a clinical psychologist,

633
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 8: age fifty two in.

634
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: Ninety ninety four, that's right. And somewhere in a busy

635
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 3: shopping center where she said that she called her name out,

636
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: she didn't respond to the name, and then she lost

637
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 3: her in the crowd. She got a bit of a

638
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: quick glimpse of her. I don't know if she says

639
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: ninety five percent sure.

640
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 8: Well you can take it from me. She says, I

641
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 8: am ninety five percent sure that this person was Bronlan.

642
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 8: So you've just discounted that as not consistent with your

643
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 8: theory that mister Winfield was somehow involved.

644
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 3: She didn't speak to the person face to face. I

645
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 3: think she said she got a look at a person

646
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 3: that looked like Bromwin. She called out that person's name.

647
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 3: That person didn't respond. She walked over towards that person

648
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,919
Speaker 3: and lost her in the I mean, what else can

649
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: we do? We put the missing person on public display

650
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: in the whole state of New South Wales, gone to

651
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: every media outlet we can.

652
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 8: All right, let's have a look at another one. Diane

653
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 8: McMillan range. This is paragraph twelve of di McMillan's statement.

654
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 8: Rang John Winfield straight after this sighting and told him

655
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 8: that I thought I'd seen Bronwin in Coronella. That's paragraph twelve.

656
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 8: Paragraph eleven caught the side profile of this girl. I

657
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 8: thought it was Bronwan standing there. The girl had long

658
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 8: blonde hair with a distinctive wave. Again, you just discount

659
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 8: that potential sighting entirely, do you?

660
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 3: No, I didn't discand it. She got a glimpse of

661
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 3: a person or something to that effect. She got a

662
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: side profile.

663
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 8: But what we do know is that she rang John Winfield,

664
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 8: she says, straight after, and told him I thought I

665
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 8: had seen bronwin So it would appear that she was

666
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 8: fairly certain, sufficiently certain about it to Warry Ringing, John.

667
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: Look these missing person's reports. I look at it to

668
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 3: say possible sightings or definite sidings. I've had a lot

669
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: of experience in missing person's inquiries in this sort of thing,

670
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 3: from a lot of years in homicide squad. We put

671
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: things in the media. People would ring up and say

672
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 3: I think I saw a person like that, and you

673
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 3: get all that. But if you're talking about possible or definite,

674
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 3: these people are saying it was possible sightings.

675
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 8: Well, ninety five percent is pretty hotly, isn't it. It's

676
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 8: beyond reasonable doubt, isn't it?

677
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: Well, she says here, ninety five percent, realistically, that's probably

678
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 3: her words. Ninety five percent almost suggests that she was definite.

679
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 8: It does, doesn't it?

680
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: Well? Ninety five percent. I think it's probably more likely

681
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: poorly worded, all right, if she catches a glimpse of

682
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 3: a side profile.

683
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: You'll recall from episode twenty one hearing about evidence of

684
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety six change of address for Bromwin from

685
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: lenox Head to an old address she had in the Shire,

686
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: according to the records of the government department Centrelink, and

687
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle Reid shared their view that someone other

688
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: than Bromwyn was responsible for the change of address to

689
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: a unit in Credulla in which Bromwin had lived with

690
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: John Winfield before they moved to lenox Head. I have

691
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: been to this property with Andy. We went there near

692
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: the end of season two.

693
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 10: Gosh, it looks really small. It's not very big at all, mate,

694
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 10: No caud you see them there. We looked from the

695
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 10: street at the dilapidated extension to a shop. Andy's mind

696
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 10: went back to the nineteen eighties when John and Bromwin

697
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 10: were in what looked like a blossoming relationship.

698
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 8: That's where Lauren came home to from hospital and she

699
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 8: was a baby.

700
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 6: Because he was that type broman used to have to

701
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 6: do the bottles on the stove and everything. I finally

702
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 6: got the shoes for that after coming in sooner struggling away,

703
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 6: so I'd borderr.

704
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 8: A microwave so she could make Lawrence bottles.

705
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: Andy's view is that somebody wanted to make it appear

706
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: that it was Bromwin who had made the change, and

707
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: therefore that Bromwin was alive, in the same way that

708
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: somebody claiming to be Bromwin had telephoned the hair salon

709
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: into cuts and supposedly went back to the house in

710
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent and left a Medicare check. Glenn Taylor offered

711
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: another explanation at the inquest in response to a question

712
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: from John's lawyer about the change of address.

713
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 8: Let me move on to something else. Paragraph one hundred

714
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 8: and seventy eight in your statement refers to a change

715
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 8: of address coming onto the Senderlink computer records on twenty

716
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 8: four April nineteen ninety six. Now new account for that

717
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 8: being not Bronwin, who has supplied the change of address

718
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 8: details in nineteen ninety six. But you say subsequent police

719
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 8: inquiries revealed this to be an old record maintained by

720
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 8: Social Security and doesn't reflect a change of address notification

721
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 8: by the missing person. Let me ask you this did

722
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 8: you actually do the inquiry of Centlink about the records.

723
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 3: Yes, I did, as far as I remember, I did them.

724
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: Glenn had asked Centilink to provide detectives with details about

725
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: Bromin's account. He received information from a Centerlink officer, Francis McNamara.

726
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett probed further.

727
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 8: But it's clear that someone in nineteen ninety six provides

728
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 8: the computer with information warranting a change of address. Isn't

729
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 8: it something triggers it?

730
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 3: No, all it would have been is the computer saying

731
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 3: that there used to be an address down there in

732
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 3: e was Parade Cronulla. We'll try that. We'll send it

733
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 3: down there, see if we can find her down there.

734
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 8: Well are you guessing now, aren't you? With respect?

735
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 3: Well, it certainly was not a person in person. Well

736
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 3: you don't know that it wasn't done personally. Well you

737
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 3: don't know that, do you, because I was told by

738
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 3: Matt Nama told me that the computer registed a change

739
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 3: of address in nineteen ninety six. But this E was

740
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: Parade Cronulla was one of Bromwin's very old addresses from

741
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 3: years gone by.

742
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 8: Well, you're not in a position from your inquiries to

743
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 8: discount the possibility that Bromwin is the person who in

744
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 8: fact triggered that change of address.

745
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 3: Are you there's no way that Bromwin done that inquiry?

746
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 8: Now, I just want to explore a second last issue

747
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 8: with you, and it's this, with your experience, considerable experience

748
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 8: over the years, the likelihood of Bronwin's body being in

749
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 8: the boot of the car on the evening of sixteen May,

750
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 8: with Moxi the dog in the back seat, is just

751
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 8: so highly improbable as to be fanciful, isn't it? That

752
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 8: would be your view, wouldn't it.

753
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: See we've only got mister Winfield's version, but he states

754
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 3: that she left the house at nine point thirty pm.

755
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 3: There's certainly a possibility any time between seven thirty pm

756
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 3: and shortly before eleven PM mister Winfield could take her out.

757
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 8: Well, look, the children are awake to late thirty. They

758
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 8: don't go off to a bed to late thirty.

759
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 3: Well, even discounting that, okay, right a thirty to just

760
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: before eleven, we've still got two and a half hours.

761
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 3: Don't know whether the car has gone out once or

762
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: twice or whatever the situation is.

763
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 8: But I think you've addressed my question. You're not serious.

764
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 3: Are you saying that the dogs are like a type

765
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 3: of sniffer dog or something like that, or what.

766
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 8: You're not seriously contending? Are you that it's likely that

767
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 8: blond woman was in the boot of the car being

768
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 8: driven to Sydney with MOPSI the dog in the back seat?

769
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 3: Well?

770
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 8: Really or is that a possibility? Is it?

771
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 3: I've put things there. I didn't make any direct comment

772
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 3: whether she was put in the boot or not.

773
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 8: Well, I'm just asking you for your experience.

774
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 3: Now leave it to the weight the coroner wants to

775
00:44:59,000 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: put on the evidence.

776
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 8: You're just not prepared to concede that in your experience,

777
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 8: it's highly improbable that ron Win was in the boot

778
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 8: being taken to Sydney with the dog in the back seat.

779
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 8: That strikes you as fanciful, doesn't it.

780
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: Look I've had probably over thirty to forty murder investigations

781
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 3: in my service, and I mean, you wouldn't believe what

782
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: people do with bodies. I see unbelievable.

783
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 8: It would be a very bold move, wouldn't it, to

784
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,720
Speaker 8: have a dog in the back seat with a body

785
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 8: in a boot?

786
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 3: As I said, you would not believe what people are

787
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: capable of under stressful situations. What they're going to do

788
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 3: with the dead body.

789
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 8: Yes, and sometime between the body going in the boot

790
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 8: and arriving in Sydney with the two little girls in

791
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 8: the back seat, the body is disposed of. That's the theory,

792
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 8: is it. It's just fanciful, isn't it.

793
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 3: You're suggesting it's not probable. As I said, my experience

794
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 3: is you don't discount really anything.

795
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 8: All right, let's move to the final topic, and it's

796
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 8: the telephone call that I suggest to you Bromwin made

797
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 8: on eighteen May.

798
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett returned to the purported telephone call supposedly made

799
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: by Bromwin to the hairdressing salon on May eighteen, nineteen

800
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: ninety three. Jody was employed there as a hairdresser, but

801
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: it was her day off, and the caller, whom John

802
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: Winfield would subsequently tell police, was Bromwin, supposedly asked that

803
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: her message be passed to Jody, and the message was

804
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: that Bromwin was never coming back. Glenn Taylor interrupted Craig

805
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: Leggott to make a point for the record.

806
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 3: Sorry, allegedly, mate.

807
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 8: That's the topic. That's the topic that I want to

808
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 8: explore with you. Michelle Flanagan was the owner of the

809
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 8: hair cutting salon, wasn't she at the relevant date.

810
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: I read it very very quickly. It was handed to

811
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 3: me just before I went into the witness box. But

812
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 3: I believe she mentions that she's an owner or part owner,

813
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: or used to be a part owner of the business.

814
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 8: You see, Michelle Flanagan was not interviewed by you, was she.

815
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 3: No, No, she wasn't interviewed by me.

816
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 7: No.

817
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 3: We spoke to the alleged person that had taken the

818
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 3: phone call, which was Robinson.

819
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 8: Well, I'll ask the questions, thank you, I'll ask the questions.

820
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 3: Well I'm answering your question.

821
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 8: No, you're not. With respect, You're not. Let me just

822
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 8: read to you. Michelle Flanagan says, on Tuesday, eighteen May

823
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety three, I was on my roster day off.

824
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 8: Canye Robertson, an employee at the salon, was working that day.

825
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 8: On my days off, i'd go into the salon and

826
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 8: check how things were going each day and take the

827
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 8: takings for the day. I went into the cell on

828
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 8: this day at about four pm. I recall that on

829
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 8: this day, Tanya told me that bronin Winfield had called

830
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 8: and had left a message for Jody that she was

831
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 8: leaving the kids and going away, and that Jody would

832
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 8: have to help her father to look after the children. Now,

833
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 8: just pausing there, You have not interviewed Michelle Flanagan, have

834
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 8: you no?

835
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,760
Speaker 3: Because it was totally discanted by Tania Roberson, who's denied

836
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:31,919
Speaker 3: taking any such call.

837
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 8: Well, you've used the word denied. Can I suggest to

838
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 8: you with respect that that was rather hasty what Tanier

839
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 8: Robertson says. This is paragraph three of Tania Robertson's statement,

840
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 8: I do not recall receiving a telephone call. Now there's

841
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 8: no denial there. Well, five and a half years later,

842
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 8: Tanyer is saying I do not recall receiving a phone call.

843
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 8: That's what she's saying.

844
00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 3: That's what the statement says.

845
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 8: Your experienced detective Sergeant Taylor. Is that five and a

846
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 8: half years, for people who are not used to giving

847
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 8: a witness statement, is a long period of time for

848
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 8: a memory, isn't it.

849
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 3: She does add a little bit on the end of

850
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 3: her statement if you might have a look at that,

851
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 3: and says, I'm sure that if I had received a

852
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 3: phone call from Bromwin. I would have remembered it.

853
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 8: And the reason why she says that is because Bronwin

854
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 8: was a missing person at the time. That's what she says.

855
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 8: I was aware at the time Bronwin was a missing

856
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 8: person and I feel I would remember the call because

857
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 8: of the circumstances at the time. No one knew that

858
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 8: Bronwin was a missing person on eighteen May, so that

859
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 8: can't be a valid reason, can it.

860
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor explained that at the time Mark Guthrie and

861
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: his family were trying to see Crystal, Mark and his

862
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: family were of the view in nineteen ninety three that

863
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: Cristel was the biological daughter of Mark, when in fact

864
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 1: Cristel was the biological daughter of Mark Davis.

865
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 3: It would have been of great assistance to the Guthries

866
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 3: in their family law aspects if Brown had gone walk

867
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 3: about up in Queensland and didn't want to be found.

868
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: It was suggested that the girl Robertson was a friend

869
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 3: of the Guthries and had been put up to say

870
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: that she got a phone call from Brodwin to that

871
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 3: effect that she wasn't coming back to assist the Guthries

872
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 3: in their family law plane For Crystal. But the end

873
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 3: result was, as I said, she doesn't recall, and she said,

874
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 3: I'm sure I would have recalled.

875
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 8: She doesn't say that with respect. She says, I do

876
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 8: not recall. No one I suggest to you, particularly not

877
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 8: Tania Robertson had any reason to remember whether a phone

878
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 8: call was made or not, because it just wasn't significant

879
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 8: as at the eighteenth.

880
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 3: Well, Jadie worked with Tanya Robinson in the same salon.

881
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 3: I mean, certainly they would have been discussing them something

882
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: to the fact that Bromwin's gone away.

883
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 8: She wasn't a missing person. There was nothing suspicious surrounding

884
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 8: what was happening with Bromwin. Anyway, I'll leave that. I

885
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 8: think that we'll just end up debating each other on that.

886
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 4: Are you calling Michelle Flanagan as a witness.

887
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 8: Well, your worship, I'd certainly like to if I can

888
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 8: get some assistance.

889
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham stood to raise an issue that he had

890
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: with his counterparts, questioning of Glenn on the evidence of

891
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: Taniel Robertson.

892
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: I think your worship and I haven't objected to my

893
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 2: friend's cross examination of this witness, but I think the

894
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: flavor that my friend is intending to extract from these sentences.

895
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 2: It's only one flavor that your Worship is open to

896
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: draw from it. So I think we can investigate that point,

897
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: but I don't think it's going to yield anything productive

898
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: to your Worship in investigating the manner and cause of

899
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: this death. I think that my friend has really split

900
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 2: a hair, but he's split it fairly, unfairly.

901
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: Your Worship was almost the end of day one and

902
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: the Deputy State Currenter Karl Milavanovitch, and a courtroom full

903
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: of Bromwin's family, friends and acquaintances had listened intently for

904
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: hours as a summary of the entire police investigation was

905
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: read aloud, along with claims that Bromwyn was in fact

906
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: not dead. Karl Milavanovitch hinted at what many in the

907
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: courtroom must have been thinking.

908
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 13: Well, I think, in fairness to mister Leggett, if there's

909
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 13: any evidence that is likely to satisfy this court that

910
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 13: there's a remote possibility that Bronwyn is still alive, that's

911
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 13: evidence that should be put before the court, but it

912
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 13: has to be weighed up in terms of the weight

913
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 13: of that evidence. And that similarly applies to any alleged

914
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 13: sightings and so forth.

915
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 4: I think at the end of the day we can

916
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 4: all come to a.

917
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 13: Fairly conclusive view that I don't think there's any prospect

918
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 13: in the world that Bronwyn is still alive, and probably

919
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 13: there is very little prospect that she was alive for

920
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 13: much longer after the sixteenth or seventeenth of Maine.

921
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: It was a powerful and probably damning indication of the

922
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 1: Deputy State Coroner's preliminary view. The challenge for John's lawyer

923
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: was to try to dissuade him from that view. Craig

924
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: Leggett stood up and put forward the alternative scenario.

925
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 8: Well, you have to be very careful with that, your worship.

926
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,439
Speaker 8: If a coroner was sitting in relation to Bromwn's mother

927
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 8: at the same point in time as we are, that's

928
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 8: the conclusion. It probably would have been reached there, and

929
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 8: that would have been wrong.

930
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: Karl Milavanovitch did not appear moved by the submission.

931
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 13: Oh no, I think the circumstances are different. There's too

932
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 13: close a parallel between Bronwyn and her mother, which is

933
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 13: not fair, and I can see perhaps why that might

934
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 13: want to be exploited for the benefit of certain known persons.

935
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 13: But if you look at the situation with Bromwin's mother,

936
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 13: she did suffer from diagnose schizophrenia. Yes, when she did

937
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 13: leave and go to England, the children were already in

938
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 13: the legal custody of her husband. It's not the situation

939
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 13: here where Bronwin had legal custody, but she had possession

940
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 13: of the children and on all accounts was plenty to

941
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 13: move back into the matrimonial home and your custody of

942
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 13: the children. It's a totally different situation.

943
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 8: As against that though.

944
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 13: But as the detective says, there's no diagnosis of schizophrenia,

945
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 13: although she was going through a difficult time in her life.

946
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 13: I think a difficult time that was obvious from the circumstances.

947
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 8: Just before we leave that because as you put your

948
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 8: finger on it, it's a very important We have Bronwin

949
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 8: telling family members that something is going to happen and

950
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 8: that they're all going to be taken by surprise, and

951
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,399
Speaker 8: it's almost in the nature of a threat. She's saying, look,

952
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 8: I need two thousand dollars and if you don't pay

953
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 8: it to me, then there's something going to happen which

954
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 8: you're all going to feel guilty about. Subsequently, and then

955
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 8: We've got this influence by the Clear Voyant on her,

956
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 8: as well as telling her that all her problems are

957
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 8: about to end, and of course the bringing back of

958
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 8: Crystal's grandparents into Crystal's life. So there are circumstances which

959
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:00,240
Speaker 8: hunt the other way as well.

960
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 13: Oh, yes, I've got an open mind, but I was

961
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 13: simply saying we don't. We shouldn't put too much weight

962
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,760
Speaker 13: on what people are relying on in relation to memory

963
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 13: going back nine years. The reality is it's two thousand

964
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 13: and two now and she hasn't operated her bank account,

965
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 13: she has had no contact with her children. We hear

966
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 13: she's walking around Nimber this morning. We've had signings of

967
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 13: Elvis Presley as well, and she's been cited by a

968
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 13: professional person and Caring bart so on that basis, those

969
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 13: people are either mistaken or she's certainly not doing very

970
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 13: much to try and hide her disappearance. She's gone back

971
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 13: to the area where she virtually grew up in and

972
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 13: wandering around the streets and shopping and shopping centers. Some

973
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 13: people might say that seems very, very unlikely, and I

974
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 13: think that's the point.

975
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 4: My obligation as a coroner before.

976
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 13: I even address any other issues is whether I am

977
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 13: satisfied that she is deceased, the fact that she becomes

978
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 13: a missing person, people start putting two and two together

979
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 13: and start remembering here to say conversations, which I don't

980
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 13: think is particularly helpful. The reality is we've got to

981
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 13: look at the evidence today and where is she today.

982
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 13: There's no sightings, she hasn't had any contact with her children.

983
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 13: The circumstances in the way she left is all, in

984
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 13: my view, very strong evidence. So what I'm trying to

985
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 13: say is I'm not going to be particularly convinced in

986
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 13: relation to sightings as placing much weight on it and

987
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 13: convincing me that she's not deceased. But I certainly don't

988
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 13: suggest that you not continue with your life of questioning.

989
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 13: But it has to be weighed up according to its value.

990
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 8: Thank you. I'm grateful to you for that. Thank you.

991
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: John's lawyer was nothing if not persistent. He raised again

992
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 1: the purported Bromwin telephone call to the hairdressing salon.

993
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 8: And if Kayleen Jones is correct in the call to

994
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 8: Jody this morning, then there is a person at Nimbon

995
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 8: who is fitting Bronwin Winfield's description. I don't have anything

996
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 8: further for this witness.

997
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,240
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor was still sitting patiently waiting to be asked

998
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: further questions. Matt Fordham had one one.

999
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 2: So where was it the first time that you learned

1000
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 2: that it was suggested that the property at Nuribar may

1001
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 2: in fact be Ernie Kiss's property at Martin's Lane.

1002
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: The detective responded that he had just learnt this ownership

1003
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: detail during Craig Leggett's cross examination of him. Matt Fordham,

1004
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: the police officer with the legal background who was tasked

1005
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 1: with presenting the case, was caught unawares earlier in the

1006
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: day because he and Glen Taylor had not known the

1007
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: address of the property at Nuribar, nor did they know

1008
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: that its owner was somebody called Ernie Kiss. All that

1009
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: Scruffy had said was that he was suspicious of a

1010
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: property at Nuribar. Scruffy could not recall to whom it belonged.

1011
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: John and his lawyer knew those details, and they saved

1012
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: them for the cross examination of Glen Taylor through you.

1013
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: I'd ask mister Leggett to indicate to your worship all

1014
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 2: the information that might assist your worship in the manner

1015
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: and cause of death. I think it's very improper for

1016
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 2: my friend to hide details such as the address of

1017
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 2: the house where that deceeased may in fact be. I

1018
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 2: think it is very improper for that to be hidden

1019
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 2: from you until this late stage.

1020
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: When Matt Fordham refers to my friend, he is of

1021
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 1: course directing that at Craig Leggett, not the witness such

1022
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: as Scruffy. The Deputy State Coroner, however, didn't seem concerned

1023
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 1: by the legal maneuverings.

1024
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,439
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think it's being hidden. It was put

1025
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 4: on the record.

1026
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 13: It might have been put on fairly quickly, and you

1027
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,959
Speaker 13: may not have taken notes. I don't think I did.

1028
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 13: But if you're prepared to give us that address, mister legant.

1029
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 8: Can I get it to you in the morning. I

1030
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 8: just don't have it right now. Apart from the address

1031
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 8: that I've given you, the name of the person, and

1032
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 8: that Saint Martin's Lane or whatever it was.

1033
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 2: Could I ask, also, sir, through you, is there anything

1034
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 2: else that my friend is hiding from me? It would

1035
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 2: be fairly negative towards the effect of this in whirey

1036
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 2: your worship. In fact, I think that the function of

1037
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: this inquest would be defeated if your worship was to

1038
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 2: be presented with these gems of evidence as we go along.

1039
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: Surely it's much better for the officer in charge to

1040
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: have the opportunity to investigate things like the address of

1041
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 2: the property where the concrete slab is.

1042
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 13: All right, Well, mister Leggett is not under any obligation

1043
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 13: to provide any evidence that might be unfavorable to his client.

1044
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 13: His client is only a witness in these proceedings. But

1045
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 13: certainly if he is in possession of information which is

1046
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 13: contrary to what's contained in the police brief, as a

1047
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 13: matter of procedural or fairness, it should be provided. Otherwise,

1048
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 13: there's no point in me spending weeks going through a

1049
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 13: brief and listening to evidence when there may be some

1050
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 13: evidence that rebuts it. So from that point of view,

1051
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 13: the prosecutor raises a point that we can certainly circumvent

1052
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 13: and go directly to some of the issues that might

1053
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 13: be challenged in the police brief. If you have evidence

1054
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,919
Speaker 13: that contradicts that, and I think in fairness, he should

1055
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 13: provide that to my sergeant or to me so that

1056
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 13: we can at least look at it, and it may

1057
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 13: be something that no longer forms part of the brief.

1058
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 8: Then okay, yes, I certainly take that on board.

1059
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 13: I don't know what for example, but if there's receipts

1060
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 13: or bank accounts or things like that that might support

1061
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 13: an alibi or might support a position of being in

1062
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 13: a different place at a different time, and that's contrary

1063
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 13: to the way the police investigation run in terms of

1064
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 13: the fact that this is fact finding mission. It's not

1065
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 13: a criminal court. No one is charged with a criminal offense.

1066
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 13: It's an inquisition to find out what happened to Bronwin.

1067
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1068
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1069
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1070
01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1071
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1072
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn

1073
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1074
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1075
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1076
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray, with

1077
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series

1078
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 1: is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson.

1079
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation.

1080
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 5: Of Bromwyn Winfield.

1081
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 1: We can only do this kind of journalism with the

1082
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: support of our subscribers and our major sponsors.

1083
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 5: Like Harvey Norman.

1084
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and

1085
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: docum about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,

1086
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy

1087
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver, go to the Australian dot com

1088
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe