Speaker 1: I get a team. It's Harps and the Good Doc
Speaker 1: who will intro in a moment. Tiffany and Cook over
Speaker 1: there at typ Central.
Speaker 2: Just killing it.
Speaker 1: She's training for a mystery, something that will all be
Speaker 1: revealed eventually, but she's training like a mofo at the moment.
Speaker 1: We don't want to say too much, but how is
Speaker 1: the training going.
Speaker 3: I'm loving at Harps. I'm do you know how funny
Speaker 3: it is to work with you for this long? And
Speaker 3: still we're a bit starstruck that I got to train
Speaker 3: with Craig Anthony Halfer this week. Craig style.
Speaker 1: Well, I definitely don't be starstruck because I'm just an
Speaker 1: old dickhead that you tell.
Speaker 3: You what the Harp's novelty never wears off. It never
Speaker 3: wears off. You'd think it might.
Speaker 1: Well, I think I've trained you twice in your life,
Speaker 1: and I trained you on the So Tif's doing a thing.
Speaker 1: We can't say what it is.
Speaker 2: At the moment.
Speaker 1: Well we can, but I told her I don't want
Speaker 1: it to and I will be revealed why. But I'm
Speaker 1: overseeing her training at the moment, and it's fair to
Speaker 1: say that it's not easy, and it's fair to say that.
Speaker 1: You literally sent me a message stay saying I fucking
Speaker 1: hate you, which was quite hurtful I feel, especially seeing
Speaker 1: as I'm doing it for nothing.
Speaker 2: I'm an only child. I'm insecure.
Speaker 1: A couple of pats on the back wouldn't go Australia.
Speaker 3: I wasn't even playing that app eitherhaps they were true emotions.
Speaker 2: Anyway, keep training.
Speaker 1: Professor Mark Cohen, Doctor Mark Cohen, Mark Cohen, welcome to you.
Speaker 2: Just bloody Marko.
Speaker 4: Welcome to the show, sir, great, thanks to really happy
Speaker 4: to be here.
Speaker 1: What do you think about the relationship between Tiff and
Speaker 1: I do there's a bit of passive aggressive stuff going on.
Speaker 2: She kind of it seems like your old buddies.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but then that that trainer sort of coach and
Speaker 4: an athlete relationship has gotten strained.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we it's being a You probably don't know this,
Speaker 1: but my arguably I was the first in Australia.
Speaker 2: So I started training people.
Speaker 1: I was one of the first anyway personal trainers, and
Speaker 1: then I set up Australia's first PT center, and so
Speaker 1: I spent decades literally training people, working with teams and
Speaker 1: athletes so that coaching people vibe and energy. I step
Speaker 1: into very easily, and it doesn't. You know, there are
Speaker 1: some people who go really well with it, but then
Speaker 1: there are other people who really need a little bit
Speaker 1: of molly coddling, which is not really my style, so
Speaker 1: it doesn't always work well.
Speaker 4: There's differ approaches in molly colleen or slapping around all that.
Speaker 1: Anyway, enough about my bullshit, give us the you know
Speaker 1: what your buio was so long, you've done so much stuff.
Speaker 1: Rather than me read the two hour kind of thing
Speaker 1: I have in front of me, would you be so
Speaker 1: gracious as to tell my audience as long or as
Speaker 1: briefly as you want mark who you are and what
Speaker 1: you do.
Speaker 2: Sure, I'll try and keep it brief.
Speaker 4: So I'm just a human being trying to work out
Speaker 4: how to have a fun, happy life. And I've spent
Speaker 4: thirty eight years at university studying wellness to try and
Speaker 4: find out how I can have a fun, unhappy life.
Speaker 4: So I did Western medicine, I did Chinese medicine, I
Speaker 4: did psychology, I did electrical computer systems engineering. I spent
Speaker 4: half of my medical career. I've had a thirty year
Speaker 4: integrated medicine career. So I was head of the Integrated
Speaker 4: Medicine Association and very involved in natural medicine.
Speaker 2: But it has been half that time.
Speaker 4: As a professor at r MIT, I created wellness as
Speaker 4: a discipline.
Speaker 2: I had a whole bunch of.
Speaker 4: PhD students who have studied things like well, you know
Speaker 4: Lauren Burns who a lead athlete, you know, lead athlete performance,
Speaker 4: but also you know saunas and ice bathing and health
Speaker 4: retreats and organic food and yoga and meditation and massage,
Speaker 4: basically all.
Speaker 2: The fun stuff that's really fun for me.
Speaker 4: But it's got no money behind it, no research but
Speaker 4: no research funds, no big pharmaceutical industry behind it. But
Speaker 4: it was fantastic for me to learn about for myself.
Speaker 4: You know, herbal medicine. I've written big textbooks on herbal
Speaker 4: medicine that every natural path have studied. Out of the
Speaker 4: last twenty years were at the first tech book on
Speaker 4: the SPA industry.
Speaker 2: I still don't know what I want to do when
Speaker 2: I grow up.
Speaker 4: That I quit my job as a pro a full
Speaker 4: time tenured professor end of twenty eighteen. And you know
Speaker 4: after you finish unit, you take a gap year, so
Speaker 4: I took a gap year twenty nineteen and covered the
Speaker 4: world and ran some retreats. I'm very involved with I
Speaker 4: love bathing in hot water, so I'm very involved with.
Speaker 2: The spa industry and the hot spring industry.
Speaker 4: I'm part owner of a hot spring in New Zealand
Speaker 4: and now I've just been made medical director of the
Speaker 4: Peninsula Hot Spring Group, which is a big hot spring
Speaker 4: here in Victoria. But they've got five hot springs now.
Speaker 4: We're opening upon in Canna Maulla outback Queensland. We've got
Speaker 4: one in me Tongue, We've got one in New Zealand.
Speaker 4: We're opening one in phillip Island. So I work a
Speaker 4: lot with the wellness industry. I'll publish a heap of research,
Speaker 4: more than one hundred research papers and textbooks. And lately
Speaker 4: I've been writing a lot of poetry, condensing a whole
Speaker 4: lot of medical wisdom into very condensed poems. I've written
Speaker 4: a coup of children's books which aren't really for children.
Speaker 4: They're amazingly illustrated books, but they're very deep consciousness raising messages.
Speaker 4: So I have fun by creating connection. I mean, they
Speaker 4: say the currency of wellness is connection. Yeah, I love
Speaker 4: connecting with people, making ancient wisdom or advance signs sort
Speaker 4: of understandable to the mainstream. And I'm a sort of
Speaker 4: an entrepreneur lately, so I'm an accidental entrepreneur really. In
Speaker 4: the first lockdown, I created a kombucha company that makes
Speaker 4: probiotics infused with herbs based on all my herbal knowledge.
Speaker 4: I have a water filtered company that makes the whole
Speaker 4: house filters that have clean water because there wasn't any
Speaker 4: filters I could recommend to patients. I still do a
Speaker 4: very little bit of medical practice, like half the day
Speaker 4: a week online advocate of medical cannabis. But I'm still
Speaker 4: trying to work out what I'm going to do when
Speaker 4: I grow up.
Speaker 2: I don't know how.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you could possibly squeeze all that in.
Speaker 2: But what a bloody interesting life.
Speaker 1: So when I think about what lies it the intersection
Speaker 1: of philosophy and psychology and science and spirituality and wellness,
Speaker 1: it's you. You're in the middle of all of that.
Speaker 4: Like what I love is being on the edge of
Speaker 4: disciplines but then combining them. So I credit wellness is
Speaker 4: an academic discipline, but wellness is not just health science.
Speaker 4: It's business practices, it's sustainability, it's design, and I really
Speaker 4: love learning that their and bringing disciplines together. So in
Speaker 4: integrated medicine, I've always loved bringing natural, complementary traditional medicine
Speaker 4: with conventional medicine, or science and spirituality, or the academic
Speaker 4: world and the entrepreneurial commercial world.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I like to be at the interface.
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a perma culture principle that says the
Speaker 4: interesting things happen on the edge, and if you're not
Speaker 4: living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Speaker 2: So I like living on the edge.
Speaker 1: So the guy who kind of lived in academia but
Speaker 1: not really, well, you're in it, but you're out of it,
Speaker 1: and you kept pushing the boundaries and stepping into other
Speaker 1: places and other areas and expanding and intersecting with other
Speaker 1: people doing other things. Was that embraced by your fellow
Speaker 1: academics or was it frowned upon once you started to
Speaker 1: open all of these doors that weren't particularly scientific.
Speaker 4: Well, I actually had a pretty good reception, but like
Speaker 4: I always say, I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
Speaker 4: So there's a group of doctors who came like the
Speaker 4: about ten fifteen years older than I. Am really fought
Speaker 4: the medical system that got de registered. You know, they're
Speaker 4: always rubbish and doing natural people like Ian gaul Or
Speaker 4: and Ian Bright Hope and Sally and whereas I was
Speaker 4: still on their shoulder. And because I had a medical
Speaker 4: degree and a PhD and I always talked about research
Speaker 4: and evidence space, I was actually quite accepted. So I
Speaker 4: thought I was the guy on the TV to talk
Speaker 4: about defending natural medicines when there was a natural medicine,
Speaker 4: or they'd roll me out at a cardiology conference or
Speaker 4: rheumatology conference to tea to speak to specialists about natural
Speaker 4: medicine because I didn't want natural path talking to medical specialists.
Speaker 4: But that have me as a doctor with science and
Speaker 4: research behind me. So I've actually had a pretty good run.
Speaker 4: But having said that, I started out I as a Monish university.
Speaker 4: Well that's where I did my medical degree. But then
Speaker 4: I spent ten years creating a center for complementary medicine
Speaker 4: and it wasn't the university wanted it is because I
Speaker 4: wanted to create it. A created electives that the students
Speaker 4: loved and that brought money, and then I had honored students,
Speaker 4: so I sort of created that off my own bat,
Speaker 4: but I was able to do it whereas other doctor.
Speaker 4: I mean, I was the first person to teach acupuncture
Speaker 4: to medical students in Australia, not because the university wanted it,
Speaker 4: because I thought it was a fun thing to do that.
Speaker 2: It was so I got to do that. And then
Speaker 2: at r MIT I.
Speaker 4: Got this great position to be attended Professor of Complementary Medicine.
Speaker 4: And I wanted to create wellness as an academic discipline.
Speaker 4: It's not because the university wanted it. I just wanted
Speaker 4: to have wellness as a discipline. It was a really
Speaker 4: good sort of field for me to play in. I've
Speaker 4: got to interact with all these different professionals and perma
Speaker 4: culture and yoga and positive psychology and bring all that
Speaker 4: into a you know, a postgraduate forum. So yeah, I
Speaker 4: was allowed to do it. It wasn't really because the
Speaker 4: university wanted it. I did it off my own bat
Speaker 4: and it was a lot of fun to do. But
Speaker 4: I've had a really good run because I think I
Speaker 4: have had a really firm foot in the evidence based
Speaker 4: conventional medical world, as I'm really firm foot in the
Speaker 4: you know, the spirituality natural medicine side. And I didn't
Speaker 4: really well, I represented both it very well. Both both
Speaker 4: sides were happy with you know, you know, I bought
Speaker 4: value to both sides.
Speaker 1: So like a lot of people in their career are
Speaker 1: driven by ticking boxes or you know, status or making
Speaker 1: lot to do, nothing wrong with any of those things.
Speaker 1: But but what drives you because it seems like a
Speaker 1: myriad of things, Well, I mean curiosity, Fun.
Speaker 2: Well how do I focus on fun?
Speaker 4: How can I have the best, most fulfilling, rewarding life
Speaker 4: and one of the most fun things to do. So
Speaker 4: that's really been my driving goal since I started into medicine.
Speaker 4: And I mean, I think I do have this of
Speaker 4: inferiority complex because I mean, who needs two PhDs and
Speaker 4: a medical degree and honors degree and all these So
Speaker 4: I love clicking degrees and credibility because I'm probably very insecure.
Speaker 4: But really I went into medicine originally ninety eighty two
Speaker 4: because I wanted to have fun. And I think in
Speaker 4: medicine would teach me about the body and life and
Speaker 4: death and everything in between, will teach me how I
Speaker 4: can have the most fun fulfilling life, not because I
Speaker 4: wanted to help sick people. So you know, fun has
Speaker 4: been really the focus. And you know when I pick
Speaker 4: my students, I pick students who are got something I'm
Speaker 4: going to learn from and it's something I'm very interested in.
Speaker 4: So I've had a really diverse research career and a
Speaker 4: really diverse student population. Who are you know, PhD students
Speaker 4: and things, because I'd follow the fun and funny is
Speaker 4: always happening at the edge as well. I mean, fun
Speaker 4: happens at the edge of your capacity. Yeah, if you
Speaker 4: know what's do and everything, it's just become boring and
Speaker 4: we can make money that way, but money has never
Speaker 4: been my dry having fun has So that's fir, that's
Speaker 4: my focus.
Speaker 1: Do you think that a lot of people when it
Speaker 1: comes to career settle and you know, we find sounds
Speaker 1: a bit judge. I don't mean it too, but you know,
Speaker 1: we do a thing and we wake up five years later,
Speaker 1: we're still doing the thing that doesn't really blow our
Speaker 1: socks off or fulfill us. But we're in a kind
Speaker 1: of a groundhog days of operating system, and you know,
Speaker 1: it ticks a box and it meets the needs. There's
Speaker 1: not a lot of joy, there's not a lot of learning,
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of fun, but we've got to
Speaker 1: have a job, and so this is the job, and
Speaker 1: then after we've done the job, then we'll try and
Speaker 1: have some fun.
Speaker 2: Then. I think that's typical.
Speaker 4: I think most people are like that, because you know,
Speaker 4: you need security, you need to be able to pay
Speaker 4: your bills and feed your family and those things, and
Speaker 4: you know, you fall into a position that provides that security,
Speaker 4: and then it becomes really scary to move outside that.
Speaker 4: And I've had some really edgy times in my career
Speaker 4: where I was going into the unknown and you know,
Speaker 4: I didn't have security. I didn't know if it was
Speaker 4: going to work out, and that was pretty edgy, and
Speaker 4: I was fortunate that I was in you know, I
Speaker 4: was able to deal with that in security, but also
Speaker 4: I thought I had a good backup with my family
Speaker 4: and my degree. It's going to go aways, go back
Speaker 4: into medicine, but I think that's quite typical. And then
Speaker 4: people have this that's where you have the work life,
Speaker 4: divide the work for money and security, and then you
Speaker 4: have your life where you have your fun. Whereas I've
Speaker 4: never really done that, and right now it's like I
Speaker 4: don't I mean, I'm sitting at home in my kitchen
Speaker 4: table right now, I don't know if I'm working. This
Speaker 4: is you know, this is not just what I do.
Speaker 4: I'm just living my life and things happen. But I
Speaker 4: think most people do have that compromise, and I.
Speaker 2: Think that society is built that way.
Speaker 4: That you have a job, then that's what you get
Speaker 4: paid for, and then you have recreations and holidays and
Speaker 4: after time, and that's when you get your enjoyment. And
Speaker 4: if they talk about work life balance, but it's really difficult.
Speaker 2: If you're really.
Speaker 4: Dividing, if you don't like what you do, then then
Speaker 4: slowly who's killing you?
Speaker 1: I talk about a thing doc called work impact, so
Speaker 1: not work life balance, but whatever you do, whether it's
Speaker 1: twenty hours a week or sixty hours a week, what
Speaker 1: impact physically, mentally, emotionally that thing has on you.
Speaker 2: Because I'm a bit like you.
Speaker 1: I haven't had a job in inverted Commas since I
Speaker 1: was twenty six, which was thirty three years ago, so
Speaker 1: I've worked for myself forever, and I don't really have
Speaker 1: a sense of well, I have no sense of a job,
Speaker 1: and even when I work, I don't really have I
Speaker 1: don't know what the experience of work is for others,
Speaker 1: but for me, like right now, you know, this is
Speaker 1: part of my job in inverted commas, talking to you,
Speaker 1: interviewing you. We're on a podcast, we have sponsors where
Speaker 1: associated with Nova, We're on their platform.
Speaker 2: This is you know.
Speaker 1: But but you and I could be at the cafe
Speaker 1: talking and it would be the same sense for me,
Speaker 1: the same experience.
Speaker 4: Right, I think, you know, to regard though, I think
Speaker 4: we're both I'm born in sixty four, so it sounds
Speaker 4: like we're about the same.
Speaker 2: Time as September sixty three. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But and I think some like you might do
Speaker 1: eighty hours a week of something, and people go eighty
Speaker 1: hours is too much. Don't do eighty that's ridiculous, Like
Speaker 1: what if you love it? I do eighty hours every
Speaker 1: week because I'm studying full time and working full time.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't But when I'm working, like for me
Speaker 1: that the over arching experience is something between curiosity and
Speaker 1: joy and fun.
Speaker 2: There's very little that I do where I go. I
Speaker 2: fucking hate this.
Speaker 1: I am not like that. Nothing feels like labor to me.
Speaker 1: The only thing that I I don't love to do,
Speaker 1: which I do, which you would understand more than any
Speaker 1: of us, is you know, reading journal articles, and you know,
Speaker 1: for all my research and stuff, which doesn't light my fire,
Speaker 1: but it's part of the process.
Speaker 4: You know, I actually like reading journal articles, which stuff I.
Speaker 2: Can.
Speaker 1: I send you a few and you just give me
Speaker 1: the fucking reader's digest versions.
Speaker 2: Send it there software that AI software that will do
Speaker 2: that for you much. Now, which is.
Speaker 1: Did you rearkable when you when you were studying medicine
Speaker 1: at Monash, which is where I'm studying. So you're in
Speaker 1: this it this very kind of structured kind of medical model,
Speaker 1: and you're learning Western medicine. Of course, in the middle
Speaker 1: of that. Were you curious about we completely invested in
Speaker 1: that and when this is me for the next thirty years,
Speaker 1: or were you simultaneously thinking about Eastern medicine and Eastern
Speaker 1: philosophies and all the other kind of things that intersect well.
Speaker 2: I absolutely was, So I did.
Speaker 4: I started off in one Nash Western medicine, and I
Speaker 4: did three years of that and thought, hey, I haven't
Speaker 4: learned how to have fun at all. They've taught me
Speaker 4: a lot about disease and illness, but not about wellness.
Speaker 4: I actually took a year off and did an honors
Speaker 4: degree in psychology and physiology and at the time I
Speaker 4: wanted to study pleasure. But that this is like fifteen
Speaker 4: twenty years before positive psychology was a thing. So I
Speaker 4: actually they said you can study pain, so I didn't
Speaker 4: honor and I think a pleasure in pain. You know,
Speaker 4: it's a fine line, you know. If I learned about one,
Speaker 4: I learned about the other side. She did an honors
Speaker 4: degree in psychology and physiology, so covering mind and body.
Speaker 4: And in that year I came across you know, Chinese
Speaker 4: medicine and acupuncture and reading about these Chinese martial artists
Speaker 4: and meditators who improve with age. I thought, I want
Speaker 4: some of that. You know, I want to improve with age.
Speaker 4: We're at the Western medicine. You know, you deteriorate with age,
Speaker 4: and you know it's all about how you manage that
Speaker 4: aging detail creation process. So I got really intrigued by
Speaker 4: Eastern medicine. So I went back and did my fourth
Speaker 4: year of my medical degree to get some clinical experience,
Speaker 4: and then I took three years off my medical degree
Speaker 4: to do a PhD in Chinese medicine. So I was
Speaker 4: right in the middle of my and that was a
Speaker 4: big That was one of those moments where I pulled
Speaker 4: the security out from under it.
Speaker 2: Me.
Speaker 4: I'd studied four years of medicine, did an honors degree,
Speaker 4: and suddenly I'm off traveling to Asia to study acupuncture
Speaker 4: and may never come back. But I was sort of
Speaker 4: driven to do that because it was my curiosity and
Speaker 4: I thought that would be much more fun and I
Speaker 4: couldn't live with myself if I hadn't followed my own
Speaker 4: no path.
Speaker 1: So you did three years of medicine, then you did honors,
Speaker 1: then did fourth year of medicine, then you went. I
Speaker 1: love how you say you had a year off, and
Speaker 1: in the year off you did honors in physiology, and
Speaker 1: so it's not really a year off, bro, but anyway,
Speaker 1: and then you took another three years off in inverted
Speaker 1: commas and did a PhD, which, by the way, is
Speaker 1: pretty quick to do a PhD. Did you then come
Speaker 1: back and do your fifth.
Speaker 4: Year or I came back there and finished my medical
Speaker 4: and started working as a doctor and the intern and
Speaker 4: did that, And then I did a second PhD in
Speaker 4: Electrical computer systems engineering, just because I wanted to understand
Speaker 4: how technology could assess the body and how the body
Speaker 4: works from a communication perspective, and we study communication networks
Speaker 4: for electrical computer systems.
Speaker 2: Engineers not no doctors. Wow, and so do you what
Speaker 2: do you? I mean, I'm sure you think a million things.
Speaker 1: So this is a dumb question, but I'll open the
Speaker 1: door about the you know, the convergence of biology and
Speaker 1: technology now where like it's it's becoming intertwined.
Speaker 4: It's mind blowing. I've I've just written an article on
Speaker 4: biohacking for the Global Wellness Institute. I've been part of
Speaker 4: the Global Wellness Institute for the last seventeen years. You
Speaker 4: had to do a bit of research on this because
Speaker 4: I've always been on the front of that technology biology interface.
Speaker 4: So you know, like looking at devices that you know,
Speaker 4: buiyo feedback and consciousness tech, you know, binoral beats and
Speaker 4: that sort of stuff, which I'm studying in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 4: And if you look what it's happening now, it's mind blowing.
Speaker 4: In you know, you've heard about Zeno bots, the living.
Speaker 2: Robots that are they alive?
Speaker 4: Are they know their machines, but they're living, and they
Speaker 4: can reproduce and they can know they can die, but
Speaker 4: then they can spoil others. And so we're getting to
Speaker 4: this borderline of what is alive and what is what
Speaker 4: is living? And then you've got all the AI, which
Speaker 4: is is that sentient? How do you know when it's sentient?
Speaker 4: And then you've got and this is what I was
Speaker 4: really interested when I was when I was making the
Speaker 4: decision to study medicine nineteen eighty one, I figured, one
Speaker 4: day we're going to be able to control all the
Speaker 4: sensory inputs into the body no site, sound, tage, taste, smell, temperature, everything,
Speaker 4: and you're going to be able to program those inputs
Speaker 4: to make the best healing experience for you, personalized based
Speaker 4: on all the information I can get from your body
Speaker 4: and in real time. And it's you know, we're still
Speaker 4: not there yet, but we're probably two to five years
Speaker 4: away from that where you get real time biofeedback that
Speaker 4: can then either put pressure you know, like massage chairs
Speaker 4: that can massage your body, or electromagnetic fields or sight
Speaker 4: and sound and color or video that is tuned just
Speaker 4: to you. And we're also getting to the point where
Speaker 4: technology is getting to master practitioner level, so you know,
Speaker 4: you go to a master massage therapist, for example, they'll
Speaker 4: put they'll suss out your body, they'll work out where
Speaker 4: the source spots are, and they'll put just enough pressure
Speaker 4: and that gets you to the point of focusing your
Speaker 4: attention on that point. But just before you WinCE and
Speaker 4: you know contract, they'll relax because they're studying your faith,
Speaker 4: they're studying your breathing, they're studying their own they've got
Speaker 4: their own intuition of what works, and that's that master
Speaker 4: practitioner level. Well, we're getting to the point where AI
Speaker 4: can do that. I mean, we've already exceeded the po
Speaker 4: with you know, AI can beat us in chairs and
Speaker 4: AlphaGo and poker and Rubik's Cube and all these things.
Speaker 4: But we're getting to the level where AI can actually
Speaker 4: interact with our body as good or not, if not
Speaker 4: better than a master practitioner can, and actually interact with
Speaker 4: us in real time, for you know, healing us, for
Speaker 4: creating excitement, for creating fun, for taking us on journeys
Speaker 4: and narrative explorations that you can pread a whole world
Speaker 4: that is designed just for you.
Speaker 2: I think that're heading towards that. That's not far away. Amazing.
Speaker 1: We had a guy on called Andrew Hessel who's a
Speaker 1: microbiologist and a geneticist. He was on the other day
Speaker 1: and we're talking about synthetic biology and we're talking about
Speaker 1: genetic engineering and programming cells and like totally personalized drugs
Speaker 1: built for your DNA, and it's it's it's bloody overwhelming.
Speaker 2: It's the stuff I being really.
Speaker 4: I mean, they can already they can they can three
Speaker 4: D print an ear or a bladder and body parts,
Speaker 4: so they take stem cells and they can take a skin,
Speaker 4: you know, skin scaffold. So you're talking about body modification.
Speaker 2: So just for.
Speaker 4: Fashion, if you want, you know, you want to have
Speaker 4: wings in the future, they'll be you'll be able to
Speaker 4: order which we want and they'll be part of your body.
Speaker 2: You know, if you want to.
Speaker 4: Have an extra ear or pix pixi ears or whatever
Speaker 4: shape you want.
Speaker 2: This is all coming.
Speaker 4: The synthetic biology and that it's not even just synthetic,
Speaker 4: it's it's you can actually transform real biology. And we're
Speaker 4: doing that already with you know, Crisper, and there's these
Speaker 4: biohackers and inject themselves with gene editing technology to grow
Speaker 4: their muscles or you know that you can buy gene
Speaker 4: editing stuff online to make glow in.
Speaker 2: The dark beer.
Speaker 4: So you yeah, it's I mean, it's really crazy the
Speaker 4: technology that we're coming up, and it is this merging
Speaker 4: of the inanimate world with the animate world, you know,
Speaker 4: And if you go back to the angel and ancient wisdom,
Speaker 4: I really like combining advanced signs with ancient wisdom. I mean,
Speaker 4: everything was alive. There was no distinction betweenimate and animates.
Speaker 4: And I think we're coming back to that, you know,
Speaker 4: as a big sort of spiraling back, but with using
Speaker 4: modern technology for that realization.
Speaker 1: I feel like a long long time ago, as a
Speaker 1: species and as individuals within that species, because of the
Speaker 1: environment that we lived in and what we did and
Speaker 1: what we didn't have, I feel like we were much
Speaker 1: more connected with our body and our physiology and biology,
Speaker 1: and that we were much more intuitive and instinctive. And
Speaker 1: in twoenty and twenty three, where you've got access to everything,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of food and booze and drugs
Speaker 1: and everything to change your state is just you know,
Speaker 1: three feet away, we've kind of become disconnected from that biofeedback.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 4: I think we have lost our own intuitive sense of
Speaker 4: who we are, and I think that you can reclaim that.
Speaker 4: And a lot of the things I talk about are
Speaker 4: trying to reconnect people to that sense of their own biology,
Speaker 4: of their own physiology. And I think there is a danger,
Speaker 4: you know, with all these biometric devices now you know
Speaker 4: the fits and the aura rings and stuff, where you know,
Speaker 4: it's nice to know how well you sleep and how
Speaker 4: many steps you've done, but you sort of it detaches.
Speaker 2: You from your own intuition.
Speaker 4: You lose faith in your own intuitive sense of your body,
Speaker 4: and you're trusting output from some device. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: there'll be a circling back. So we're actually not going
Speaker 4: to need this technology at all, but we're not there yet.
Speaker 1: They're still That's such a good point, Like when we
Speaker 1: would look at a number that's on our watch and
Speaker 1: would feel good or bad based on that number.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not how well you sleep.
Speaker 4: Oh look, you know my watch that tells me how
Speaker 4: well I sleept, rather than knowing when I wake up
Speaker 4: in the morning.
Speaker 2: Oh, that was a good night's sleep.
Speaker 1: So over the years, dock one of the things that
Speaker 1: I did thousands of times, which I wouldn't do anymore.
Speaker 2: But back then we didn't know any better.
Speaker 1: But in the old days, in the eighties and nineties,
Speaker 1: we would weigh members or weigh clients every whatever, once
Speaker 1: a week or something.
Speaker 2: People would want to be weighed.
Speaker 1: And somebody could be having a great day, they're happy,
Speaker 1: everything's good, and they stand on the scales and they
Speaker 1: look at a number that appears between their toes and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, life shit, they're having a
Speaker 1: bad day. They're depressed, they're you know, because some number
Speaker 1: appears between their toes that isn't the number that they want.
Speaker 1: But thirty seconds ago, they felt really good physically, mentally, emotionally,
Speaker 1: felt really good. And then now they've got a new
Speaker 1: bit of information. Now they feel terrible despite all the
Speaker 1: physiological kind of stuff that was, you know, a minute ago,
Speaker 1: they were good.
Speaker 4: And I think, I mean, I see that a lot
Speaker 4: in medicine. So for example, there's this been trend in medicine,
Speaker 4: especially natural medicine, where they'll do still a whole lot
Speaker 4: of testing, yeah, just your blood, you know, seerum, rhubarb
Speaker 4: and minerals and whatever, rather than actually find out what
Speaker 4: what symptoms you have and treating the patient.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I think you know when.
Speaker 4: You when you actually really and it does take a
Speaker 4: lot of skill to take a good history and you
Speaker 4: inquire into a patient how they're feeling, and you know
Speaker 4: when do that starts and really investigating what's happened. So
Speaker 4: it's very easy just to order a pathology test and
Speaker 4: seeing your minerals, your blood levels or whatever, and then
Speaker 4: treating the numbers on the pathology test rather than actually
Speaker 4: treating the patient. And I think there is a place
Speaker 4: for both. I mean, it's really good to have information,
Speaker 4: and the more information you've got you can make better decisions.
Speaker 4: But to rely just on that information field decision making
Speaker 4: and not rely on the intuitive side and the experiential
Speaker 4: side of what's actually happening, I think the danger there
Speaker 4: will we're sort of the technology becomes between us and
Speaker 4: our intuition.
Speaker 1: I know you don't see patients too often these days,
Speaker 1: but when you do, when somebody comes to you as
Speaker 1: a you know, a medical doctor, do you ever put
Speaker 1: on another hat and go I actually think you should
Speaker 1: go and work in the garden, or go for a jog,
Speaker 1: or it's some acupuncture or you know, play with your
Speaker 1: puppy seven times a day.
Speaker 4: Well, I've been I guess I'm famous for doing that
Speaker 4: for the last thirty years, where I'd write prescriptions which would
Speaker 4: be going to play with your puppy, or draw dragons,
Speaker 4: or go dancing. And but what I do is actually
Speaker 4: ask people what do you do that. When you do it,
Speaker 4: you lose track of time. You're so absorbed in the activity.
Speaker 4: You're not worrying about the future, you're not feeling guilty
Speaker 4: about the past. You're just absorbed in that activity. And
Speaker 4: often you you know, some people would say I don't
Speaker 4: have anything like that, and they were the really sick ones.
Speaker 4: And other people wud say, oh, yeah, I used to
Speaker 4: do ballroom dancing, or I used to paint, or I
Speaker 4: used to garden. And you'd inquire and you'd see how
Speaker 4: that their illness actually deteriorated when they stopped doing those activities.
Speaker 4: So I would prescribe. I'd get a script pad out.
Speaker 4: You know, I've been seeing patients this morning. Actually I
Speaker 4: get to that out and I'd actually write, you know,
Speaker 4: gardening three times a week or no ballroom dancing three
Speaker 4: times a week. I'd say, you know, put this on
Speaker 4: your fridge. This is your prescription. This is what you
Speaker 4: need to do. And it was amazing the change you're
Speaker 4: getting people. Yes, and either when you get people to
Speaker 4: talk about the things they love, because as a doctor.
Speaker 4: You know, you're asking about their pain, and you know
Speaker 4: to travel here and there and how does it come
Speaker 4: on and off? So you're asking people about negative things
Speaker 4: in their lives. I would take a pleasure history. What
Speaker 4: are the most fun things you have in your life?
Speaker 4: What's your reason for living? What are the things you
Speaker 4: do but you really enjoy? And when people start to
Speaker 4: talk about those things, their voice changes, their posture changes.
Speaker 4: You can see them in live and in front of you,
Speaker 4: just as they're sharing with you. You know, the activities
Speaker 4: that they really enjoyed. And that was really powerful to
Speaker 4: focus on. So I mean, one example, I remember I
Speaker 4: had an old patient who was a Vietnam vest. He'd
Speaker 4: broken everybody bone in his body as a paratrooper, and
Speaker 4: he had this ronic pain condition and he was getting
Speaker 4: pathodene injections and there was not even off space in
Speaker 4: his body to put the injections because it was all
Speaker 4: Frey braised up. But the one thing he did with
Speaker 4: fly remote control aeroplanes. This is in the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 4: and when he was focusing on and he was like
Speaker 4: austrange champion at it. But when he was focusing on airplanes,
Speaker 4: his pain wasn't an issue. Wow, But the rest of
Speaker 4: the time it was so you know, having something that
Speaker 4: you love to do and you focus on that, that's
Speaker 4: actually medicine, and that's what i'd prescribe.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I do that commonly, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Do you find it in Probably people listen to you
Speaker 1: and respect you a lot more than they do me.
Speaker 1: But I find it interesting sometimes when people talk to
Speaker 1: you about, you know, if they're flat or they're depressed
Speaker 1: or they're anxious, and we'll talk about, you know, doing
Speaker 1: something that is like we spoke about, like playing hanging
Speaker 1: out with your animals or being in nature or listening
Speaker 1: to music or meditating, or they're like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but what do you think is xanax?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, one, I'm not a doctor, but two,
Speaker 1: you know, why don't we like a We're a culture
Speaker 1: that seems to have more faith in drugs than I mean,
Speaker 1: there are so many things that can lower your heart
Speaker 1: rate and lower your blood pressure and reduce anxiety and
Speaker 1: that that don't involve any kind of drug.
Speaker 2: So I've got a poem for this.
Speaker 4: At the start of the pandemic, I was thinking, you know,
Speaker 4: because I've studied all these complimentary medicines. I've written all
Speaker 4: these research papers on them, So I saying, what are
Speaker 4: all the activities you can do at home with no cost,
Speaker 4: no training, and no equipment that have research evidence that
Speaker 4: they reduce anxiety, improve immunity. And yeah, they've got evidence
Speaker 4: behind them. So I've started writing these out and it
Speaker 4: came and it came out of the poem. So this
Speaker 4: I'm sort of I'm proud of this poment. It's got
Speaker 4: fifty activities in it, hear it. If you go to
Speaker 4: my website, you can click on each of these activities
Speaker 4: and it will link to the research behind it's.
Speaker 1: You know what, We've never in five years and one
Speaker 1: thousand and nearly eleven hundred episodes, we've never had anyone
Speaker 1: share a pime. So this is the debut for typ pimes.
Speaker 4: And this is a systematic review poem, so it's evidence
Speaker 4: based poem. I call it the World of Wellness and
Speaker 4: it goes like this, Hold someone's hand, gaze into their eyes,
Speaker 4: go barefoot in nature, bask in sunrise, choose a dance
Speaker 4: partner and go find your groove, do tuch your yoga
Speaker 4: and mindfully move, share a massage, enjoy healing, touch, Focus
Speaker 4: on one thing and don't think too much. Make time
Speaker 4: for a hobby, play chess, fly kite, make use of
Speaker 4: your hands, draw paint so or right. Help someone in need,
Speaker 4: Donate to a cause, play games, meditate, read stuff from bookstores,
Speaker 4: turn off your screens, get a good sleep, declutter, spark,
Speaker 4: joy and love.
Speaker 2: What you keep.
Speaker 4: Dig around in the garden, pick up a guitar, Slip
Speaker 4: into a bathtub, sauna or spa. Care for a pet,
Speaker 4: take up a sport, Go on vacation and make your
Speaker 4: home a resort. Lie in a hammock relief pent up stress,
Speaker 4: relax and do nothing and then do even less. Laugh
Speaker 4: out loud, share a joke, give someone a kiss, say
Speaker 4: a prayer, chant a mantra, and follow your bliss.
Speaker 2: So that that's pretty amazing. I love that. Where can people
Speaker 2: find that mark on.
Speaker 4: My website doctor mark dot co, d r M A
Speaker 4: r C dot co and forward slash poems.
Speaker 2: And all research backed. That's all research back.
Speaker 4: So each one of those activities has a link to
Speaker 4: the to the systematic review or the randomized control trial that.
Speaker 2: That's backing it.
Speaker 4: And I give I think of that that poem to
Speaker 4: my patience I say, have include as many of these
Speaker 4: activities in your life you can.
Speaker 1: You know what I laughed is just before when you
Speaker 1: said I've been seeing patients this morning and you held
Speaker 1: up a script pad there, I would think, one because
Speaker 1: you're a medical doctor, and two because you're writing. Even
Speaker 1: if it's like go dancing, or even if it's you know,
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes a day line the floor with your dog,
Speaker 1: you know, or twice a day, but it's on a
Speaker 1: script pad. It's given to me by a doctor. I'm
Speaker 1: much more likely.
Speaker 2: To do it. That's it.
Speaker 1: You just told me to do it. I'm less likely.
Speaker 1: But if you write it out on a script I
Speaker 1: feel like, well, shit, this is clinical.
Speaker 2: I've got to do this.
Speaker 4: That's right, and put it on your fridge, you know,
Speaker 4: the fringe magnet. Yeah, so it gives it some authority
Speaker 4: to do that. At the moment, I just write scripts
Speaker 4: of medical cannabis, so I don't really write other other scripts.
Speaker 2: Well, now you're going to get in undated. I don't
Speaker 2: need more patient. Don't really know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that we've spoken about I reckon
Speaker 1: five times in a thousand episodes. I'm interested in your
Speaker 1: take on it and in fact, Tiff and I spoke
Speaker 1: about a guy that we've both spoken with a bit
Speaker 1: called Professor Jeffrey Reddicker from Harvard who is a researcher
Speaker 1: and but specializes or spends a lot of time and
Speaker 1: effort researching spontaneous healing and plus ebos and all of that.
Speaker 1: What do you think of all that?
Speaker 4: Do you?
Speaker 1: Where do you sit with the you know, our ability
Speaker 1: to heal ourselves from things that apparently are death sentences.
Speaker 4: Or terminal Yeah, I mean, I believe nature has infinite
Speaker 4: healing power.
Speaker 2: And I've because I've been.
Speaker 4: In this natural medicine world for thirty plus years, I've
Speaker 4: seen so many cases of dramatic healing.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a good friend with Ian Gawler.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a case study of you know, he had
Speaker 4: these cannonball lesions in his lungs and the bony cancers
Speaker 4: all the way through his lungs and given six weeks
Speaker 4: to live and what forty years later he's still around
Speaker 4: and you know, transformed his life through you know, sort
Speaker 4: of meditation and you know, lifestyle change. So I've seen
Speaker 4: some really dramatic turnarounds.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I.
Speaker 4: Mean, if you have a look what humans are capable
Speaker 4: of it's mind blowing. You know, some of these amazing
Speaker 4: YouTube videos of what people can do, and now how
Speaker 4: to turn that on? Because the one thing to say, Okay,
Speaker 4: there's these examples of it, how do you actually activate it?
Speaker 4: And some of those activities in my poem and those activities,
Speaker 4: but when you move track of time so you're sort
Speaker 4: of at one with the universe, that's there. They're the
Speaker 4: activities that can potentially turn that on. But there is
Speaker 4: no answer of how to know switch that on for everybody,
Speaker 4: and not that you want to. I mean, in Western medicine,
Speaker 4: we see death as the enemy and you know, fight
Speaker 4: it at all costs. But I've seen people have amazing, beautiful,
Speaker 4: really wanted and welcome death and they were really successful.
Speaker 4: But Western medicine still sees that as a failure as
Speaker 4: a death.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Think we have incredible power. I mean, the whole placebo effect.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's so powerful you have to control for
Speaker 4: it and all these experiments because it works. Yeah, it
Speaker 4: works a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: What about one of the great challenges, especially twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: I think its been around forever really about post pandemic.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of conversation around anxiety. Is anxiety produced
Speaker 1: more by the situation and circumstance or more by the
Speaker 1: individual in the middle of it.
Speaker 2: Oh, certainly by the individual.
Speaker 4: And a lot of the stuff I've been teaching people
Speaker 4: now and working on is how you can remain really
Speaker 4: calm and relaxed in the midst of a really chaotic
Speaker 4: and stressful situation. So there's things like I did a
Speaker 4: two with Bim Half and you know, how to teaching
Speaker 4: people how to stay in an ice bath, which is
Speaker 4: not really comfortable, but how do you then relax when
Speaker 4: you're in an ice bath? And the work we did
Speaker 4: with Lauren actually Lauren Burns using gold medice in taekwondo,
Speaker 4: and she was one of my PhD students, and we
Speaker 4: investigated these world champion athletes who'd be multiple world champions
Speaker 4: and said, how do you stay in the top of
Speaker 4: the world in your sport for so many years? I mean,
Speaker 4: what you eat, what do you think? How do you live?
Speaker 4: And we found out that they all did ice bathing,
Speaker 4: and they did it for the mental health benefits of
Speaker 4: how to relax in a stressful situation. And I think
Speaker 4: that's a really important skill. I mean yoga gives you
Speaker 4: that skill. When you do a yoga stretch, you sort
Speaker 4: of go to the edge of your stretch, and there's
Speaker 4: a point that I call the point of forced mindfulness.
Speaker 4: That's the point where your body says, don't go any further.
Speaker 4: You're going to hurt yourself. You don't stretch any further.
Speaker 4: And if you do stretch, if you try and push
Speaker 4: past that, you're going to tear a muscle and you
Speaker 4: reduce your flexibility. If you just go to that point
Speaker 4: of where you're feeling quite stress and you're at the
Speaker 4: edge of your tolerance, and then you practice relaxing and breathing,
Speaker 4: so you're relaxing in that stressful situation. The same thing
Speaker 4: happens in a sauna or an ice bath. There's a
Speaker 4: point where your body says, get out, it's too much,
Speaker 4: when you're about to tap out. And at that point,
Speaker 4: if you can just relax and practice being relaxed under stress,
Speaker 4: that builds up your resilience. But if you do that
Speaker 4: what I recommend, and this naturally happens in the open class,
Speaker 4: so you know you're doing your stretches and your stretch
Speaker 4: one side and the other side, and you go to
Speaker 4: the point of that no forced mindfulness, you'll being comfortably uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: So you practice being relaxed under stress.
Speaker 4: But then at the end of the class you go
Speaker 4: into schvacinating at the corpse pose and you do a
Speaker 4: deep relaxation and then you're practicing relaxing while you're relaxed.
Speaker 2: And when you do that, you go.
Speaker 4: Much deeper into the relaxation because you've stressed yourself earlier,
Speaker 4: so the contrast between the stress and the relaxation is greater.
Speaker 4: And when you really relax deeply like that, all your
Speaker 4: stress hormones can't fall back into balance, your mental activity
Speaker 4: comes back into balance, and you really get in touch
Speaker 4: with your inner self. That's a great time to make
Speaker 4: decisions if you have to have to make an important
Speaker 4: decision because you're or in touch with yourself literally and
Speaker 4: it's a really good time to heal.
Speaker 2: That's when your body doesn't healing.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I really encourage people to go to the
Speaker 4: limits of their stress and practical relaxing while they're stressed,
Speaker 4: but then balance that with having a deep relaxation and
Speaker 4: practicing being relaxed while you're relaxed.
Speaker 1: Shout out to Lauren if Lauren's listening. We love you your
Speaker 1: ace and thanks for connecting the doc and us. It's
Speaker 1: much appreciated. Yeah, that's that that equanimity, that calm in
Speaker 1: the chaos, right, That being able to, you know, despite
Speaker 1: what's going on around, you self regulate and to.
Speaker 2: Be able to as much as James Bond effect. Right.
Speaker 4: We love about James Bond because you know, there's all
Speaker 4: these chaos going around, but he knows who to shoot
Speaker 4: and who to care for you to go through and
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do I make good decisions and do smart
Speaker 1: things and act and react the way that is optimal
Speaker 1: in the middle of the shipfest that's going That's right,
Speaker 1: that's going on around.
Speaker 4: But the way to do it is you create a
Speaker 4: ship best and you practice doing that and then when
Speaker 4: life throws it at you, then you can deal with it.
Speaker 2: That's so true. Is like we.
Speaker 1: In fact back to TIFFs. So TIFF's training for this
Speaker 1: thing that will remain nameless, but it's going to be
Speaker 1: horrible potentially, And so I said to her, like the
Speaker 1: other day, I've been getting it to do things that
Speaker 1: a lot of them are fucking horrible, and I go,
Speaker 1: you need to be used to horrible because if we
Speaker 1: just get you traditionally fit, you know, that's great, but
Speaker 1: if we're doing it in a methodical, reasonable, comfortable, sensible way.
Speaker 1: When you get in the middle of this thing that
Speaker 1: you're training for where it isn't predictable, it isn't nice,
Speaker 1: it isn't comfortable, it isn't familiar, it's freezing, you're in
Speaker 1: the middle of water, you're here, you're there. There's all
Speaker 1: this shit going on that you haven't dealt with, Like
Speaker 1: you know, for me, even as an exercise physiologist, I
Speaker 1: think it's thirty percent about your body and seventy percent
Speaker 1: about all the other stuff. You know, so me trying
Speaker 1: to get and the same with you know, I've worked
Speaker 1: with lots of professional athletes, and you know, understanding what
Speaker 1: their body needs to be doing to execute what they
Speaker 1: need to do for their sport or task or activity
Speaker 1: is fundamental. But you can get any brilliant, genetically gifted
Speaker 1: athlete who's beautifully trained, but if they can't perform under pressure,
Speaker 1: they're fucked. You can't be a Lauren Burns, no matter
Speaker 1: how great your body or genetics or skill or talent is,
Speaker 1: if you can't go to the Olympic Games and under
Speaker 1: extreme pressure execute, you know. And that's the thing is,
Speaker 1: so it's like, yeah, fit, strong, functional, specifically trained, well nourished,
Speaker 1: well slept, you know, all the all the physiological buttons pushed. Yep, sure,
Speaker 1: but can you deal with shit? Can you do what
Speaker 1: most people would give up on?
Speaker 4: And that's where you know, you can recreate a ship
Speaker 4: storm and practice it exhibiting the ship storm and then
Speaker 4: and then then you actually feel it.
Speaker 2: That does It.
Speaker 4: Builds your physiological resilience. It also builds your confidence because
Speaker 4: when you can do that, you feel like you can
Speaker 4: handle anything. You feel invincible. And yeah, that's what I
Speaker 4: really I love teaching people that and I do a
Speaker 4: lot through bathing because bathings. Most people think bathing's really comfortable.
Speaker 4: You know, you go to hot springs and your lie
Speaker 4: in hot water. It's really and it is, that's super
Speaker 4: relaxing and super comfortable. But you go into an ice
Speaker 4: bath and after a minute or two you really want
Speaker 4: to get out, Or you go into a sauna and
Speaker 4: after ten, fifteen, twenty minutes you really want to get
Speaker 4: out because your body is suffering and dealing with that,
Speaker 4: and acs you've got another little poem here. So the
Speaker 4: last poem was all about the chronic things you can
Speaker 4: do to keep yourself relaxed.
Speaker 2: So this is in the acute situation, when the ship
Speaker 2: storm is hitting you, there's what you.
Speaker 4: Want to do is activate your parasympathetic nervous system because normally,
Speaker 4: you know when the ship storm hits, you've got your
Speaker 4: sympathetic nervous system where it's fight and flight, so you
Speaker 4: know up and your adrenalines up. But when you're in
Speaker 4: fight and flight, often that's fearful and your brain turns off.
Speaker 4: In that fight and fight, you don't want to think
Speaker 4: about it. You want to act instinctively, so you don't
Speaker 4: have time or should I do this or that? But
Speaker 4: if you can calm yourself down, you can make a
Speaker 4: better decision. And there's a way to do that to
Speaker 4: stimulate your rest and digest your parasympathetic nervous system. And
Speaker 4: there are things you can do with your body, very
Speaker 4: simple things that will activate your parasympathetic nervous system. And
Speaker 4: like all these things, the ten hacks to relax, and
Speaker 4: it's super simple. It's touch all your fingers, wiggle your toes,
Speaker 4: soften your stomach, breathe through your nose, thy smile, wallow thing,
Speaker 4: flutter your eyelids, and focus within. Now, all of those
Speaker 4: activities activate your parasympathetic nervous system. And there are all
Speaker 4: activities you do when you're safe in your cave, when
Speaker 4: you're running away from the tied or fighting a battle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so smart that you do that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's so smart that you you're teaching people, you know,
Speaker 1: because people can memorize that quite easily and recall that you.
Speaker 4: I was teaching to a patient this morning with PTSD
Speaker 4: and anxiety and having panic attacks. And when the panic
Speaker 4: attack comes on, if you've got things you can do
Speaker 4: that give you a sense of control, but they actually
Speaker 4: calm your nervous system. And this is you know the
Speaker 4: you know the power of Vaguel, you know the Vagel
Speaker 4: theory where you can have sympathetic nervous system high because
Speaker 4: you're in a high adrenaline situation, but then you can
Speaker 4: increase your vagual activity, your parasympathetic so you can still
Speaker 4: be relaxed in that chaotic situation. And that's when you
Speaker 4: make the best decisions. That's when you can get the
Speaker 4: edge over your component, your opponent, and.
Speaker 2: Where you for much better.
Speaker 4: So it's how do you stop panicking and stay calm
Speaker 4: when the ship storm hits. And these sort of tricks
Speaker 4: can help, so.
Speaker 1: You can be cognitively and physiologically optimal at the same time. Now,
Speaker 1: maybe forty percent of my audience, I'm guessing do not
Speaker 1: know who wim Hoff is.
Speaker 2: I do. I'm a fan.
Speaker 1: Tif you know, of course, don't you. Yep, one tell
Speaker 1: us who he is and tell us what you did
Speaker 1: with him.
Speaker 4: So whims they call him the iceman. So he sort
Speaker 4: of made ice fading quite famous. He has a method
Speaker 4: that involves breathing where you breathe as much as you
Speaker 4: can so hyperventilate and blow off all your carbon dogs
Speaker 4: side and get dizzy and lightheaded and really uncomfortable, and
Speaker 4: then you hold your breath for as long as you can.
Speaker 4: And it just happens when you if you blow off
Speaker 4: all your carbon dox side and hold your breath, you
Speaker 4: can hold your breath.
Speaker 2: For a long time, and anyone can do that.
Speaker 4: And then he also promoted he had the world record
Speaker 4: for many years of the longest spent in an ice
Speaker 4: bath over an hour. He can spend in full ice
Speaker 4: and control his body temperature and then no one could
Speaker 4: believe that he could train anyone else to do that.
Speaker 4: And they actually tested him. They did some research on
Speaker 4: him where they gave him injected him with the poison
Speaker 4: around E.
Speaker 2: Coli.
Speaker 4: So it's it's pretending you've got a blood infection without
Speaker 4: active bacteria. So it's the lipoprotein coat around the bacteria.
Speaker 4: That's what your body reacts to when you've got septocemia
Speaker 4: or blood infection. So they gave that to him and
Speaker 4: he did his breathing, did his thing, and he didn't
Speaker 4: get affected by it at all, and they couldn't believe.
Speaker 4: And he's this amazing charismatic dutch Man who's got a
Speaker 4: lot of bravado and a lot of self confidence. And
Speaker 4: they said, you know, oh yeah, you can do that
Speaker 4: because you're a freak. He goes, no, I can teach
Speaker 4: anyone to do it, And they said, how long you
Speaker 4: take a year of training on? Take them on the weekend,
Speaker 4: and they said, oh yeah, sure, And he did it.
Speaker 4: He took a group of about twenty five people away
Speaker 4: in Poland and I think maybe he took him for
Speaker 4: five days or a week and trained him on the
Speaker 4: training them on the breathing trained them on the ice bathing.
Speaker 4: They did end up walking up a mountain in the
Speaker 4: snow in their in their board shorts, and a week
Speaker 4: later they all tested with the same injection of what
Speaker 4: should have been a sept to see me, which gives
Speaker 4: you fever and chills and pains for twenty four hours,
Speaker 4: and they were able to do it as well. So
Speaker 4: he has this whim half method, which is the breathing
Speaker 4: and the ice bathing where he trains people to overcome
Speaker 4: their own sort of body, their own physiology. And he
Speaker 4: came to Australia about five years ago, especially living up
Speaker 4: in NUSA at the moment, I think, and I sort
Speaker 4: of toured with him giving the lecture on the science
Speaker 4: behind the whim half method. And it was really interesting
Speaker 4: for me to formula research there because I had already
Speaker 4: done a lot of research on breathing practices and bathing
Speaker 4: practices and stuff. So I sort of condensed that together.
Speaker 4: And so you know, we went to Brisbane and Sydney
Speaker 4: in Melbourne and we had like five hundred people would
Speaker 4: come to an event and they'd all do two minutes
Speaker 4: in an ice bath. And when you do two minutes
Speaker 4: on an ice bath, you feel amazing when you get
Speaker 4: out in this indorphin rush and you feel really powerful.
Speaker 4: So they're really sort of high vibing events, and so
Speaker 4: I traveled with him. I ended up doing some research
Speaker 4: which you never fully got published that will we in survey.
Speaker 4: One of my PhD students surveyed about four thousand people
Speaker 4: doing the whim Hoff met and saying, you know, why
Speaker 4: do you do it?
Speaker 2: What effects do you get? What are the benefits?
Speaker 4: And it was amazing that people get incredible benefits from
Speaker 4: PTSD and anxiety, from depression, and from back pain and
Speaker 4: joint pains and fibromyalga and chronic pain. They were like
Speaker 4: the big ticket items that people got benefits from. And
Speaker 4: I think it's especially with the anxiety and the PTSD,
Speaker 4: is like when you go into an ice bath, you
Speaker 4: naturally you had to ventilate, and that reproduces the breathing
Speaker 4: pattern and the body chemistry of anxiety of trauma.
Speaker 2: You know, when I.
Speaker 4: Was working in emergency departments, you'd have people coming into
Speaker 4: the emergency department thinking they having a heart attack, but
Speaker 4: they're hype of ventilating. They're having a panic attack. But
Speaker 4: it's the same sort of feeling that you're having well
Speaker 4: you're about to die and having a panic attack, and
Speaker 4: you can simulate that by going to an ice bath.
Speaker 4: But then if you can control your breathing and overcome that,
Speaker 4: it gives you the chance, well, I can overcome this panic.
Speaker 4: And it can be dangerous if you've had really severe
Speaker 4: trauma in the past and you do that to someone unexpected,
Speaker 4: you can reactivate that trauma.
Speaker 2: But if you do that in a.
Speaker 4: Very controlled environment where they can get out anytime they want,
Speaker 4: they're in full control of the situation. There's a hot
Speaker 4: bath or a sauna or something that can warm up
Speaker 4: so they're not going to freeze, then they can actually
Speaker 4: reproduce that previous trauma, that panic in a way that
Speaker 4: they're in control of it. And then they can overcome
Speaker 4: and they can control their breath and relax their breathing down,
Speaker 4: and suddenly they've got mastery over their own body when
Speaker 4: they didn't have it before, and that could be super powerful.
Speaker 4: And often when you're doing big public events or five
Speaker 4: hundred people sitting in nice bars, you need to watch
Speaker 4: out for the people who are getting triggered by that
Speaker 4: who and with a bit of coaching, pretty much everybody
Speaker 4: gets through it. But it's a really empowering thing for
Speaker 4: people to do. But you do have to be a
Speaker 4: little bit careful because some people are more sensitive. To
Speaker 4: give people that feeling of control over panic, it's such
Speaker 4: a gift to give to people, do you know.
Speaker 1: You know, so I remember hearing about that where he
Speaker 1: was in that hospital and they injected him with that
Speaker 1: whatever it was that made people. Typically it would make
Speaker 1: people really unwell for a period of time, and he
Speaker 1: went give it to me, and they gave it to
Speaker 1: him and he was completely fine and there. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then he trained all those people that were not handpicked
Speaker 1: by him.
Speaker 2: I don't think.
Speaker 1: I think they're actually chosen by the researchers or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, and I hadn't done anything special before. And no,
Speaker 2: just here I can't like.
Speaker 1: What I don't get is why does that not blow
Speaker 1: everyone's socks off. Let's research that. Let's lean into Like,
Speaker 1: here's all of these people doing shit that is not
Speaker 1: meant to be possible. Why are we not pushing into that?
Speaker 1: Is it because it makes no money?
Speaker 2: There's no money in it?
Speaker 4: I mean what I mean, He's and now you know
Speaker 4: all the stuff in that poem I just read you know,
Speaker 4: those activities don't cost anything.
Speaker 2: And they don't make money for any organizations, do they.
Speaker 4: That's right, well, suddenly, I mean the wellness industry and
Speaker 4: the spa industry in Hot Springs. I mean, yes, nice
Speaker 4: and boring, but it's not it's not really a blockbuster
Speaker 4: drug that you can make a billion dollars or you know,
Speaker 4: many boultiple billions of dollars out of a molecule by
Speaker 4: doing that. These are activities. I mean, so for example,
Speaker 4: I really I've got to I think I call the
Speaker 4: cold water hockey pokey, which is a way of so
Speaker 4: because after the wim Hoff thing and traveling in the
Speaker 4: ice spading, I was going to lectures, you know, plays
Speaker 4: like wing Ghana, which is like this luxury health retreat
Speaker 4: and tell people to you know, going to use cold water.
Speaker 4: And most people say, I know, we hate cold water.
Speaker 4: We can't tolerate it, you know, because people are pretty
Speaker 4: wimpy generally. So I thought, and you know, wim just
Speaker 4: do it, you know, get in there. And but the
Speaker 4: people who come to wim hoffa then, or the alpha
Speaker 4: males or the alpha females or you know, the firefighters
Speaker 4: and the martial artists and the footballer, and I was.
Speaker 2: Talking to elder women and people.
Speaker 4: Who are more sort of relaxed, so though, there must
Speaker 4: be a way to do this that's gentle, and I
Speaker 4: came up with this what I call the cold water
Speaker 4: hokey pokey.
Speaker 2: And you can do it at home in the shower.
Speaker 2: It doesn't cost any money.
Speaker 4: You see, just basically you start off with a hot shower,
Speaker 4: and then at the end of your nice hot shower,
Speaker 4: you turn the heat up a little bit so you
Speaker 4: become a bit uncomfortably hot and a bit flushed. And
Speaker 4: at that point you stand back and you turn the
Speaker 4: hot water off and the cold water on. But you
Speaker 4: just get your left foot. It's okay, you've been really hot,
Speaker 4: and you put your left foot can handle the cold water,
Speaker 4: and then you put your left leg in, and you put
Speaker 4: your right foot and your leg and then your left
Speaker 4: hand and arm and your other hand and arm. And
Speaker 4: what that does it constricts the blood and your limbs
Speaker 4: and sends that hot blood into the core of your body.
Speaker 4: But you're still feeling okay even though you've got the
Speaker 4: cold water on your limbs. And then you keep breathing
Speaker 4: calmly and you smile to yourself, because that's what it's
Speaker 4: all about.
Speaker 2: How do you stay calm and you have that inner piece,
Speaker 2: and then then.
Speaker 4: You take a big breath in and before you put
Speaker 4: your left side in, you start to sigh out. And
Speaker 4: then you put your left side in, and when the
Speaker 4: water hits your neck and your sort of upper body.
Speaker 4: Normally that would when you go oh, it would make
Speaker 4: you have a big gasp because your blood dessels are
Speaker 4: close to the surface there and that gives you that shock.
Speaker 4: But if you're already going as you do that, you
Speaker 4: feel the cold, but you don't get the shock, so
Speaker 4: it takes the emotional reaction away from it. So you
Speaker 4: take a big sigh and you put your left side in,
Speaker 4: your right side in, your front side in, and you
Speaker 4: turn yourself around and you keeping calmly and smile to yourself,
Speaker 4: because that's what it's all about. And then you put
Speaker 4: your whole head in and then you move your head around,
Speaker 4: you know, standstill, get a drenching, slowly, turn yourself around,
Speaker 4: continue breathing, calmly.
Speaker 2: Smile to yourself. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 4: And then you can put the cold water on your
Speaker 4: kidneys when you're growing and on your arm pits, there
Speaker 4: are places where your bloodvessels are close to the surface,
Speaker 4: so it sort of chills your body a little bit.
Speaker 4: And you'll find after doing that, you'll be standing in
Speaker 4: the cold water and you say, oh, it's all right,
Speaker 4: I can do this, And at that point you're breathing calmly,
Speaker 4: you're in the cold water. You get out and you
Speaker 4: start your day. And it takes about a minute, like
Speaker 4: literally one minute to do that. And if you do it,
Speaker 4: you started your day singing and dancing. You come out
Speaker 4: feeling amazingly alive and invincible. Your hair and your skin
Speaker 4: improoves because cold water actually is really good for your
Speaker 4: hair and your skin, and you feel like you can
Speaker 4: do anything. And the hardest part of that whole thing
Speaker 4: is the decision to do it. It doesn't cost any money,
Speaker 4: it doesn't take any time. I mean saves money, you're
Speaker 4: saving hot water. But that decision to do it is
Speaker 4: that barrier. But if you can overcome that barrier, that
Speaker 4: procrastination barrier, that can then have like a rollover effect
Speaker 4: for the rest of your life. So that difficult conversation
Speaker 4: you want to you had to have, or that job,
Speaker 4: that shitty job you really didn't want to do Suddenly, okay,
Speaker 4: I can just do it, and you just make the
Speaker 4: decision to do it, and you do it knowing that
Speaker 4: it's not the best thing to do. You know, it's
Speaker 4: not the most fun thing to do, but it's actually
Speaker 4: fun overcoming.
Speaker 1: That hurdle once we get fully immersed, Mark, once I'm
Speaker 1: all in head, yeah, everything pits knackers. How how long
Speaker 1: do I stay and need to stay under there? Thirty
Speaker 1: sixty not.
Speaker 4: Even just to the point where you're breathing comfortably, right,
Speaker 4: so that once you're breathing comfortably, that's the biggest hurdle.
Speaker 4: Now there is an added benefit if you can get
Speaker 4: to the point where you become shivery. So at the
Speaker 4: point of you're not shivering and chattering, but if you're
Speaker 4: a little bit shivery, then what you've dropped, you've dropped
Speaker 4: your body temperature, and that does things like activate brown fat,
Speaker 4: which helps you burn white fat, and that turns on
Speaker 4: your metabolism, has other benefits. But just the benefit of
Speaker 4: overcoming the cold and showing that you can actually overcome
Speaker 4: a difficult situation of be calm just to the point
Speaker 4: where you're in the cold, breathing calmly that's all you need.
Speaker 1: At that point, you're good to go. Well, if you
Speaker 1: know what today's activity is, don't you? Thanks Hi, Mark,
Speaker 1: You're amazing. We know you've got another podcast coming up.
Speaker 1: How do people find you? Follow you, connect with you,
Speaker 1: read your poems and learn more about you and your work.
Speaker 4: So my website is Dr Mark Dr M A r
Speaker 4: C dot Co. I post a bit on Facebook and
Speaker 4: on LinkedIn. I'm not really on Instagram. I need to
Speaker 4: up my social media. But yeah, on my website of
Speaker 4: Facebook or LinkedIn the main sort of avenues, they can
Speaker 4: email me info I n FO at doctor Mark dot Co.
Speaker 4: They can email me for people you know want to
Speaker 4: communicate with me at all. Yeah, and I'm upgrading my website.
Speaker 4: But all my poems and stuff are there at the moment,
Speaker 4: and they're all three and I'm happy to share.
Speaker 1: Well, we would love to have you back because you're
Speaker 1: a killer, But we'll say goodbye.
Speaker 2: We'll say goodbye off air in a moment, but for
Speaker 2: the minute.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming to have a chat with
Speaker 1: us on typ We really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: I've been a pleasure, Craig, and I'm good luck with
Speaker 4: your training. Tipt sounds like you can be doing.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Mark. It'd be rude for me to have
Speaker 3: a favorite on typ but I think I just have one.
Speaker 3: I think Mark's just Yeah, you're amazing.
Speaker 2: I love that I've got more poems I can share
Speaker 2: next time. Yeah, stay there, mate, we'll say goodbye. Thanks everyone.
Speaker 1: Now you've got lots of things to action, because that
Speaker 1: was fantastic