WEBVTT - The fall of Alan Jones

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. This week,

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<v Speaker 1>Alan Jones went on trial in Sydney, more than twenty

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<v Speaker 1>months after his arrest. The once powerful broadcaster is now

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<v Speaker 1>facing twenty two charges of indecent assault and sexual touching

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<v Speaker 1>involving six complainants. He's pleaded not guilty to all charges

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<v Speaker 1>and denies any wrongdoing. When we recorded this episode, Jones

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<v Speaker 1>had just been charged with twenty four offenses involving eight complainants.

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<v Speaker 1>Since then, the case is narrated with a number of

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<v Speaker 1>charges withdrawn or replaced before the trial began. Today we

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<v Speaker 1>revisit our conversation with investigative reporter and author of Jonestown,

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<v Speaker 1>The Power and the Myths of Alan Jones, Chris Masters,

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<v Speaker 1>on the fall of one of Australia's most powerful men

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<v Speaker 1>are what it tells us about the nature of power

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<v Speaker 1>itself in this country. It's Sunday, August nine. This episode

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<v Speaker 1>was first published in November twenty twenty four. Chris, thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for speaking with me. Alan Jones has been arrested. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you tell me why.

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<v Speaker 2>I understand that he's been arrested on various charges of

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<v Speaker 2>indecent assault. I certainly have some knowledge of an inquiry

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<v Speaker 2>that's been going on for some time. You know, the

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<v Speaker 2>police came and edited me sometime back, and of course

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<v Speaker 2>there were witnesses from the book that I wrote, Jonestown,

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<v Speaker 2>that was published back in two thousand and six, and

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<v Speaker 2>because I'm still in contact with them, I've heard that

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<v Speaker 2>they've also been giving statements to the police, and in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>one of them said to me last week they thought

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<v Speaker 2>that an arrest was imminent.

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<v Speaker 3>Police will elite. These offenses took place between two thousand

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<v Speaker 3>and one in twenty nineteen, involving eighth victims. The youngest

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<v Speaker 3>of those victims a seventy year old when the time,

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<v Speaker 3>at the time when the elites the heads took place.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, we're talking about allegations. Nothing has yet been proved.

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<v Speaker 3>Those offenses include eleven charges aggravated vicent assault where the

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<v Speaker 3>victim was under the authority of the offender, nine charges

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<v Speaker 3>related to assault with active and decency, two charges of

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<v Speaker 3>common assault, two charges of sexual touching.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, there's been speculation about Jones abuse of

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<v Speaker 2>power and predatory behavior that go back well before I

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<v Speaker 2>wrote that book twenty years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Chris, you've reported extensively on things like the military on

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<v Speaker 1>war crimes, most recently Ben Roberts Smith. But you also

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<v Speaker 1>developed a long running interest in Alan Jones two. What

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<v Speaker 1>first drew you to him as a subject.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, my interest began in the early two thousands. I'd

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<v Speaker 2>been reporting a lot on police corruption and I was

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<v Speaker 2>quite surprised when I came to recognize that Jones had

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<v Speaker 2>some power and law enforcement when he engaged in kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a long running combat with the reformist police Commissioner

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Ryan. He was brought in from the UK because

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<v Speaker 2>there were lots of concerns about institutional corruption in the

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<v Speaker 2>New South Wales police force, and Jones seemed to have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of allies that were Andy, Peter Ryan, and

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<v Speaker 2>Andy the reform process. And I wondered about that, and

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<v Speaker 2>I worried about that, and I went and saw Alan

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<v Speaker 2>Jones and we had a bit of a discussion. He

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want to do an interview with me, but it

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<v Speaker 2>was all all very polite. But essentially I came to

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<v Speaker 2>the view that my job was in front of abuse

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<v Speaker 2>of power, and I was seeing it in my own industry.

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<v Speaker 2>Then at four quarters in those days, you take a

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<v Speaker 2>deep breath and the story you least want to do

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<v Speaker 2>is the one you probably should do. I wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 2>thought that when I began that in about two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and two, I'd still be talking about it over twenty

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<v Speaker 2>years later.

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<v Speaker 1>So you ended up taking a deep dive into Alan

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<v Speaker 1>Jones's life. What can you tell us about his upbringing

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<v Speaker 1>and how he became such a significant public figure in

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<v Speaker 1>Australian life.

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<v Speaker 2>He came from fairly humble circumstances. He was the son

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<v Speaker 2>of a Southeast Queensland farmer, had a very small, impoverished block. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>his mother was a special person. She insisted that the

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<v Speaker 2>children go to private schools, which must have been a

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<v Speaker 2>stretch for them. And so Alan had this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>cross cultural background where on the one hand he aligned

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<v Speaker 2>himself with the working poor, but on the other hand

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<v Speaker 2>he also sort of seemed comfortable with the elites, which

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<v Speaker 2>it had something to do with that to warm but

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<v Speaker 2>grammar school upbringing, I think he always was thought of

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<v Speaker 2>as something of a boy genius, had youthful looks, and

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<v Speaker 2>he became tertiary educated, you know, he got a teacher qualification.

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<v Speaker 2>He taught at Ironsight Primary. He then went on to

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<v Speaker 2>teach at Brisbane grammar, and that's where a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the problems began. Jones seemed to be unduly interested in

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<v Speaker 2>the young men. You heard stories about allegations of grooming

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<v Speaker 2>of Joanes, spending undue time with students, of Jones after athletics,

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<v Speaker 2>massaging students, you know, having them shower, et cetera in

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<v Speaker 2>front of him, that sort of thing. He wouldn't get

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<v Speaker 2>away with it today. You know, you couldn't have a

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<v Speaker 2>master in the car with a student and two o'clock

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<v Speaker 2>in the morning, which is something that happened with Alan

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<v Speaker 2>quite a bit. Respects. He was invaluable to the school

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<v Speaker 2>because he was prepared to coach all of the sporting

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<v Speaker 2>teams and do the choir and drama and work late

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<v Speaker 2>at night while other teachers with families were going home.

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<v Speaker 2>So became invaluable. And I think that became a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a trick over the years. Wherever he worked in politics,

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<v Speaker 2>in broadcasting, or as an educator, he made himself kind

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<v Speaker 2>of invaluable and in a way untouchable.

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<v Speaker 1>In the process of writing that book, he witnessed Jones's

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<v Speaker 1>influences firsthand. As the ABC decided not to publish the

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<v Speaker 1>book at the last minute, all your recollections from that time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was a really shocking experience for me. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>still a bit shaken by it, actually, because very proud

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<v Speaker 2>of the ABC and I always thought the ABC was

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<v Speaker 2>the place to go that would do the stories that

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<v Speaker 2>others wouldn't do. I've been through the Queensland Police corruption experience,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, where I sued for something like thirteen years,

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<v Speaker 2>and I thought that the agacy was absolutely fearless. It

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<v Speaker 2>didn't turn out to be the case. My sense was

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<v Speaker 2>that they decided that they were going to kill it

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<v Speaker 2>by saying that it was just unpublishable. That the lawyer

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<v Speaker 2>said that, you know, I couldn't back it up, but

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<v Speaker 2>that wasn't the case. I kept providing their lawyers with

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<v Speaker 2>the evidence that proved that what I'd written was defensible.

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<v Speaker 2>In the end, they just gave up and said, sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not going to go ahead with this. And as

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<v Speaker 2>it turned out, I went to a commercial publisher, Alan

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<v Speaker 2>and Nundman, and they published the book. Certainly he had

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<v Speaker 2>friends in high places. Yes, a lot of influence was

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<v Speaker 2>brought to bear.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break. How Alan Jones cultivated power

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<v Speaker 1>for friends and got what he wanted out of them

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<v Speaker 1>headed Ellen Jones cultivate these powerful friends. What did that

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<v Speaker 1>look like in practice? Based on the research and reporting

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<v Speaker 1>you did.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was it was more that people feared

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<v Speaker 2>him than respected him. The politicians would go on his

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<v Speaker 2>show and if he didn't play ball, he beat them up.

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<v Speaker 2>The people who cowtowed to Jones, And honestly, they told

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<v Speaker 2>me this up close plenty of times. You know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not doing it, Chris because I respect him. I'm doing

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<v Speaker 2>it because I fear him. He can go on air

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<v Speaker 2>and built me up every day till the cows come home,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's pretty much what he would do.

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<v Speaker 4>She's a clown, just Indada in a complete clown. I

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<v Speaker 4>just wonder whether Scott Morrison's going to be fully brief

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<v Speaker 4>to shove a sock down the throat. I mean, she

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<v Speaker 4>is a joke, this woman, and an absolute and utter lightweight.

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<v Speaker 5>Go away, Juliet. We don't want to see you, we

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<v Speaker 5>don't want to hear you climb into a charf bag.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of broadcasters, journalists, you know, we're supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>stay in our lane, and most of them pretty much

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<v Speaker 2>stick to the lane, but not Alan. Alan pretty much

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<v Speaker 2>saw himself as a prime minister in front of the microphone.

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<v Speaker 2>He would tell prime ministers and premiers what to do

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<v Speaker 2>unhesitantly all the time. And I suppose he got away

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<v Speaker 2>with it because they led him. But every now and

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<v Speaker 2>then in a battle of whix, a lot of them

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<v Speaker 2>could easily take him on. Malcolm Turnbull did it famously

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<v Speaker 2>on one occasion.

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<v Speaker 5>If you could say after me this as a senior

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<v Speaker 5>member of the Abbot government, I want to say here,

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<v Speaker 5>I am totally supportive of the Abbot Hockey strategy for budget.

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<v Speaker 2>Repair Allan, I am not going to take dictation from you.

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<v Speaker 2>I am a cabinet minister. I support But at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>even though he might have vested Alan in front of

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<v Speaker 2>the microphone, there was no upside in a you came

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<v Speaker 2>off worse up at the end of the day because

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<v Speaker 2>to Jones's audience, you know, you were the enemy. It

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<v Speaker 2>made me think that, you know, in one respect, he

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<v Speaker 2>retained his omnipotence because of that microphone. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>chapters in my book Jonestown was called Dictators and Tigers,

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<v Speaker 2>and I speculated way back then that Jones was writing

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<v Speaker 2>a tiger, and as soon as he got off that tiger,

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<v Speaker 2>it threatened to devour him, and of course that's pretty

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<v Speaker 2>much the way it's panned out.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the men who spoke about his experiences said

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<v Speaker 1>he did so because he doesn't want Alan Jones to

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<v Speaker 1>get away with it. That if people don't know about this,

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<v Speaker 1>Jones is likely to get a state funeral. He'll get

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<v Speaker 1>a prime minister at his funeral. What do you think

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<v Speaker 1>Alan Jones's legacy will be.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's a book in that. Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's a really sad story. Actually, at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the day, I think he was a very, very lonely man.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was awful for him to go back

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<v Speaker 2>to that expensive apartment night after night and be essentially alone.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that he had a lot of friends.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think the worst thing about him is his

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<v Speaker 2>formula for success, the shock jock formula for success, which

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<v Speaker 2>was to be strident. Never sit on the fence, he'd say,

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<v Speaker 2>because it only gives you splinters. The reverse index of

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<v Speaker 2>certainty is how I explained it. Alan Jones would be

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely certain about issues where very little research was involved,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course that was important. It was important if

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<v Speaker 2>you were on air to be angry and forthright day

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<v Speaker 2>in and day out, and that's an unfortunate formula for

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<v Speaker 2>democracy and for our business. If we really believe in facts,

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<v Speaker 2>and if we believe it's about the pursuit of truth,

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<v Speaker 2>then you don't follow the Jones formula. But sadly, I

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<v Speaker 2>think a great many people have.

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<v Speaker 1>Chris Masters, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James, thanks for listening. Tomorrow on seven AM,

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<v Speaker 1>as police probe the first ever far left attack to

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<v Speaker 1>be investigated as terrorism in this country, we speak with

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<v Speaker 1>Wally d Ali about why it's being viewed through that

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<v Speaker 1>lens and where this attack fits in the broader context

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<v Speaker 1>of growing acts of political violence and terrorism around the world.

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<v Speaker 6>You don't wake up one morning and say, oh, let's

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<v Speaker 6>blow something up. What usually happens is you begin with

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<v Speaker 6>a dissillution, you decide there's no conventional way to deal

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<v Speaker 6>with that disillusionment, and then you start to engage with

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<v Speaker 6>ideas that begin to morally disengage from what we might

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<v Speaker 6>call mainstream morality and an aversion to violence, and then

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<v Speaker 6>start to engage with the possibility of violence as a

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<v Speaker 6>moral political action. And once you hit that point, then

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<v Speaker 6>things can accelerate fairly quickly. The evidence seems to be

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<v Speaker 6>that more and more people are reaching that

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<v Speaker 1>Point that'll be in your feed tomorrow