WEBVTT - Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy? 0:00:05.921 --> 0:00:07.281 Appoja production. 0:00:10.081 --> 0:00:13.121 This is episode four of poison the podcast that delves 0:00:13.201 --> 0:00:16.401 into the allegations that a social media influencer in Australia 0:00:16.801 --> 0:00:20.601 drugged a child to illstit social media followers and cash. 0:00:20.801 --> 0:00:23.601 This matter is currently before the court and we're limited 0:00:23.641 --> 0:00:26.761 in what we can say about the specific case, but 0:00:27.041 --> 0:00:30.361 it's brought up some issues that we're exploring. Generally, the 0:00:30.401 --> 0:00:33.720 discussion that follows is not related to that case. The 0:00:33.721 --> 0:00:36.401 accused mother in the matter is entitled to a fair 0:00:36.441 --> 0:00:38.481 trial and we want to make sure. 0:00:38.681 --> 0:00:39.921 That's allowed to occur. 0:00:44.321 --> 0:00:47.440 Each episode, I'm joined by Micky Fisher, who's a content creator, 0:00:47.561 --> 0:00:50.840 a Reykid practitioner and a mum. If you have information 0:00:50.921 --> 0:00:52.801 you want to share with us, you can email us 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.881 anonymously at podcast Poisoned at gmail dot com. Before we 0:00:56.921 --> 0:00:59.840 speak to an expert in criminal psychology, we wanted to 0:00:59.881 --> 0:01:03.161 cover some of the huge profile cases where the defense 0:01:03.481 --> 0:01:06.121 of Munchausen's by proxy have been used. 0:01:06.361 --> 0:01:08.601 Well, the first time I ever heard about it, I think, 0:01:08.881 --> 0:01:12.601 was to do with the gypsy Rose Blanchard case, and 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:14.721 that was the first time I'd sort of been aware 0:01:14.881 --> 0:01:18.121 that such a thing really existed, and all I know 0:01:18.401 --> 0:01:22.321 about more chausends making up like a medical disorder and 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:24.800 then by proxy it's to do it to somebody else. 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.481 We're talking about Gypsy Rose is probably one of the 0:01:27.521 --> 0:01:30.881 more high profile cases. And she was American, right. 0:01:30.961 --> 0:01:35.881 Yes, I followed it quite deeply, like like when I 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.441 first told Yeah, when I first heard about the story, 0:01:38.481 --> 0:01:44.041 I was so interested and intrigued and shocked to shit 0:01:44.161 --> 0:01:46.521 about like how such a thing could happen and occur 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.561 and how people could get away with something like that 0:01:48.601 --> 0:01:52.561 for such a long time. Re researching it recently, given 0:01:52.761 --> 0:01:56.041 you know this type of case that we're investigating, it 0:01:56.201 --> 0:01:57.561 is fascinating. 0:01:57.961 --> 0:02:00.361 So maybe for those people that don't know the story 0:02:00.441 --> 0:02:03.681 of Gypsy Rose and her mum, d D. Blanchard, do 0:02:03.681 --> 0:02:06.281 you want to just give us an view of what happened? 0:02:06.321 --> 0:02:08.001 Okay? So the general story is that DEDE. 0:02:08.041 --> 0:02:11.121 Blanchard was found stabbed to death in her Missouri home 0:02:11.561 --> 0:02:15.281 on the fourteenth of June twenty fifteen, after friends and 0:02:15.321 --> 0:02:19.361 family alerted authorities after seeing a Facebook post that was 0:02:19.401 --> 0:02:22.680 posted by Gypsy on her and a mum's shared ACCOUMP 0:02:23.001 --> 0:02:24.000 that said that. 0:02:23.921 --> 0:02:24.840 Bitch is dead. 0:02:25.441 --> 0:02:25.881 Oh wow. 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:31.240 Obviously red flags started to go off. DEDI had been 0:02:31.401 --> 0:02:34.841 stabbed to death by Nicholas, who was Gypsy's. 0:02:34.281 --> 0:02:35.440 Boyfriend at the time. 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.601 So he's currently still in prison serving his time for 0:02:39.201 --> 0:02:43.840 first degree murder. But let's backtrack to the mum and 0:02:44.001 --> 0:02:45.800 sort of what led to the stabbing and kind of 0:02:45.841 --> 0:02:48.361 like how this all occurred and the why and everything. 0:02:48.401 --> 0:02:52.521 That's what's so interesting because it ended up being a 0:02:52.601 --> 0:02:57.240 murder and the woman who had the more chosen by 0:02:57.281 --> 0:03:01.960 proxy and was essentially abusing her daughter ended up becoming 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:03.840 a victim of murder. 0:03:03.881 --> 0:03:05.761 And then so that's where it sort of back and forth. 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.280 But according to Rod Blanchard, who is Gypsy's father, when 0:03:09.281 --> 0:03:12.681 Gypsy was three months old did he had become convinced 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.481 that Gypsy had sleep apnea and had begun taking her 0:03:16.481 --> 0:03:19.201 to the hospital. It was found that she had no 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.841 sign of the condition, but it just continued. Diddy was 0:03:22.921 --> 0:03:25.361 just like convinced that Gypsy had like a range of 0:03:25.401 --> 0:03:31.601 health issues, which she attributed to an unspecified chromosomal disorder, 0:03:32.841 --> 0:03:36.601 and she even claimed that Gypsy had muscular dystrophy and 0:03:36.641 --> 0:03:39.721 made her use a walker. Her parents would like take 0:03:39.761 --> 0:03:42.841 her to the special Olympics events, and Dede would tell 0:03:42.921 --> 0:03:45.641 people that Gypsy was younger than she was, like an 0:03:45.641 --> 0:03:47.801 accept sage. She was ten years old, but she'd be 0:03:47.841 --> 0:03:51.121 telling people, oh no, she's only eight, and generally claimed 0:03:51.121 --> 0:03:52.961 that Gypsy was disab well, that was the whole thing. 0:03:53.001 --> 0:03:55.241 Gypsy's you know, she's got this, that and the other thing, 0:03:55.281 --> 0:03:57.721 the medical disorders, like just sort of went on and 0:03:57.721 --> 0:04:00.521 on and on, and then eventually ended up in a wheelchair. 0:04:03.521 --> 0:04:07.561 In two thousand and five, they moved because of the 0:04:07.561 --> 0:04:10.720 devastation of Hurricane Katrina, and that's where they were living 0:04:10.761 --> 0:04:13.761 at the time, and so Dedi claimed that because of 0:04:13.801 --> 0:04:19.241 the hurricane, all of Gypsy's medical records were flooded, they 0:04:19.241 --> 0:04:23.801 were lost, and so they moved to Missouri. By this stage, 0:04:23.841 --> 0:04:28.641 she was claiming that Gypsy had been diagnosed with multiple conditions, 0:04:28.681 --> 0:04:33.041 including leukemia and again the muscular dystrophee and in two 0:04:33.081 --> 0:04:36.001 thousand and eight, a couple of years later, they were 0:04:36.041 --> 0:04:39.801 gifted a pink house that was built by an organization 0:04:39.961 --> 0:04:44.561 called Habitat for Humanity. The house included accessibility features like 0:04:44.601 --> 0:04:48.200 the wheelchair ramp, the oxygen tank, and feeding tube. But 0:04:48.241 --> 0:04:51.361 Gypsy and DD received a lot of support again from 0:04:51.401 --> 0:04:57.441 the community organizations like Make a Wish, celebrities, They were 0:04:57.481 --> 0:05:01.241 donating massive amounts of money, they were going on charity 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:03.761 chip trips like Disney World and all of. 0:05:03.681 --> 0:05:08.561 These things, because like they are amazing organizations that help 0:05:08.801 --> 0:05:11.961 people that actually need really and they are going, well, 0:05:12.041 --> 0:05:15.921 Gypsy Rose is really ill, san let's. 0:05:15.681 --> 0:05:19.440 Help, and the normal person is never going, what if 0:05:19.481 --> 0:05:22.121 they're making it up? You're seeing sick kids every day, 0:05:22.161 --> 0:05:23.760 you're involved in it, or like you know, you're just 0:05:23.761 --> 0:05:26.561 a general person and you're hearing this horrible, awful story 0:05:26.601 --> 0:05:28.081 and you just want to be able to do anything 0:05:28.081 --> 0:05:34.440 to help these people and help this child. But between 0:05:34.481 --> 0:05:37.121 two thousand and seven and two thousand and nine is 0:05:37.161 --> 0:05:40.640 when some red flags started to sort of appear, so 0:05:40.841 --> 0:05:46.080 doctor started having doubts. Gypsy's former neurologists reportedly found no 0:05:46.241 --> 0:05:48.841 evidence of her conditions, and that was in two thousand 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:49.441 and seven. 0:05:50.041 --> 0:05:52.721 He even wrote a letter to Gypsy's. 0:05:52.241 --> 0:05:56.161 Primary doctor stating that he believed that the mother suffers 0:05:56.201 --> 0:05:58.001 from more Chausen's by proxy. 0:05:58.081 --> 0:05:59.801 So that was in two thousand and seven that he 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:00.401 mentioned that. 0:06:01.281 --> 0:06:04.961 Two years later, another doctor called authorities when he couldn't 0:06:05.401 --> 0:06:08.640 any symptoms that supported what Ded alleged to be wrong 0:06:08.961 --> 0:06:12.561 with her daughter, and medical records show that Dede and 0:06:12.601 --> 0:06:16.041 Gypsy visited over one hundred and fifty medical professionals over 0:06:16.041 --> 0:06:17.881 the year. So the way that they kind of got 0:06:17.921 --> 0:06:20.401 away with this in a way is one you know, say, 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.320 like the flood where they apparently lost or medical records. 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:28.121 Dede would also slightly change Gypsy's name. She would change 0:06:28.161 --> 0:06:31.801 the spelling, adjust it slightly, so it was always kind 0:06:31.841 --> 0:06:34.121 of different, and they would just jump from. 0:06:33.961 --> 0:06:36.161 Doctor to doctor, to doctor to doctor to doctor. 0:06:36.681 --> 0:06:39.880 Twenty eleven, Gypsy attempted to run away to be with 0:06:39.961 --> 0:06:43.041 a man that she met at a convention, but when 0:06:43.121 --> 0:06:46.161 Dede caught her, and this is according to Gypsy. Gypsy's 0:06:46.161 --> 0:06:49.081 written a book She's mentioned all of this, Dede destroyed 0:06:49.121 --> 0:06:52.320 her phone and laptop and changed her to a bed 0:06:52.761 --> 0:06:55.440 and placed bells on the doors so she couldn't leave. 0:06:55.561 --> 0:06:59.801 In October twenty twelve, that's when Nicholas and Gypsy began 0:06:59.921 --> 0:07:02.960 chatting via a Christian dating app and they were like 0:07:03.121 --> 0:07:05.121 very much in love. Through all of this, gyps he 0:07:05.201 --> 0:07:09.121 was still forced to go to appointments and everything else. 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.281 So Mom's still saying she's really sick. Oh yeah, and 0:07:12.561 --> 0:07:17.241 Gypsy Rose is starting to get romantically involved with Nicholas, 0:07:17.241 --> 0:07:19.121 who will end up being the killer of her mum. 0:07:19.321 --> 0:07:22.281 Yes, I think like Gypsy was starting to become aware 0:07:22.361 --> 0:07:25.481 of it all and recognizing. 0:07:25.001 --> 0:07:29.321 It as abuse. But of course, what when you're in an. 0:07:29.241 --> 0:07:32.281 Abusive situation like that, There's not really much that you 0:07:32.281 --> 0:07:35.121 can do. If she's like, you know, chaining her daughter 0:07:35.201 --> 0:07:37.761 to the bed and things like that, you know, there's 0:07:37.801 --> 0:07:39.561 only so much that you can do. 0:07:40.561 --> 0:07:43.081 And so this brings us to the murder. 0:07:43.321 --> 0:07:43.521 Right. 0:07:43.641 --> 0:07:50.201 Gypsy gave Nicholas the boyfriend gloves, a knife, duct tape, 0:07:50.761 --> 0:07:53.481 and she hid in the bathroom while he stabbed d 0:07:53.601 --> 0:07:56.801 d seventeen times and again. This is in twenty fifteen, 0:07:57.121 --> 0:08:01.121 and Nicholas and Gypsy then fled the scene. They apparently 0:08:01.201 --> 0:08:03.641 had sex in the same room and then. 0:08:03.601 --> 0:08:04.241 Off they went. 0:08:04.561 --> 0:08:07.841 The day after the body was found, police were able 0:08:07.881 --> 0:08:11.121 to sort of track where Gypsy and her boyfriend were. 0:08:11.361 --> 0:08:14.761 They were I think his place, and he surrendered himself 0:08:14.761 --> 0:08:18.241 to the police. Police also found that Gypsy was with him, 0:08:18.801 --> 0:08:24.641 unharmed and wheelchair less, completely able to walk, which apparently, 0:08:24.721 --> 0:08:26.641 you know, she was supposed to not be able to 0:08:26.681 --> 0:08:28.881 walk and was bound to a wheelchair. 0:08:28.481 --> 0:08:31.521 As a miracle. Second degree murder for Gypsy Rose means 0:08:31.521 --> 0:08:34.441 that she would be eligible for parole. First degree murder 0:08:34.441 --> 0:08:37.001 on his count meant no parole, so it was first 0:08:37.041 --> 0:08:39.881 degree with no chance of parole. So he will stay 0:08:39.921 --> 0:08:44.161 in jail forever unless someone pardons him. So she obviously 0:08:44.161 --> 0:08:46.881 got out in December of twenty twenty three, and she'd 0:08:46.921 --> 0:08:49.921 served eight years of a ten year sentence. The moment 0:08:49.961 --> 0:08:53.281 she got out, she did interviews with every single media 0:08:53.361 --> 0:08:54.441 outlet in the States. 0:08:54.881 --> 0:08:58.281 Gypsy Rose Blanchard, who helped kill her mother to escape 0:08:58.321 --> 0:09:01.201 a life of suffering and abuse, has been the subject 0:09:01.281 --> 0:09:04.881 of countless media stories at a Hollywood series, Well, now 0:09:04.921 --> 0:09:08.041 she's a free woman and she's telling her own story. 0:09:09.201 --> 0:09:13.921 I share my story to be a cautionary tale so 0:09:13.961 --> 0:09:18.361 that the next person that might be in a situation 0:09:18.561 --> 0:09:22.161 like mine, they don't take the route that I did. 0:09:22.721 --> 0:09:26.081 She's now got like almost eight million followers on Instagram, 0:09:26.161 --> 0:09:28.961 ten million follows on TikTok. She appeared on the fifth 0:09:28.961 --> 0:09:31.121 seasons of The Kardashians on Hulu. 0:09:32.721 --> 0:09:38.881 Hi, Gypsy Hill, I've been following your case for a 0:09:38.881 --> 0:09:43.001 really long time, really, so like I wouldn't want to 0:09:43.041 --> 0:09:45.041 come and you know, really meet with someone that I 0:09:45.041 --> 0:09:46.921 feel like can make an impact, just for like the 0:09:47.041 --> 0:09:49.641 sensation of the case, right, I. 0:09:49.561 --> 0:09:51.561 Mean, she's got a movie about her, the Movies called 0:09:51.601 --> 0:09:53.681 The Act if you've not seen it on Hulu. 0:09:54.081 --> 0:09:56.361 She's become famous, a celebrity. 0:09:56.401 --> 0:09:59.881 A celebrity of So that's right, No doubt suffered shocking 0:09:59.961 --> 0:10:03.241 abuse at the hands of someone that was supposed to 0:10:03.281 --> 0:10:03.721 look after. 0:10:04.241 --> 0:10:04.441 Yeah. 0:10:04.481 --> 0:10:09.761 Yeah, but you still go that sort of glorification if 0:10:09.801 --> 0:10:12.521 you like, of a moment in her life she comes out, 0:10:12.641 --> 0:10:15.681 she becomes famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you think about the timing. 0:10:16.161 --> 0:10:19.401 You could imagine that someone sees something like this and goes, oh, 0:10:19.401 --> 0:10:20.001 that's interesting. 0:10:20.121 --> 0:10:23.161 The obsessional, like what we you know, begin to learn 0:10:23.201 --> 0:10:26.801 around muchausends is it's just this need for attention or 0:10:26.921 --> 0:10:28.841 this like obsession with attention. 0:10:34.681 --> 0:10:37.361 There's a lot of celebrities that have that have also 0:10:37.481 --> 0:10:40.241 claimed that they were part of Munchausen's by proxy. I 0:10:40.241 --> 0:10:42.561 don't know if you know Eminem's song Cleaning Out My 0:10:42.561 --> 0:10:45.041 Closet in two thousand and two. The lines from his 0:10:45.441 --> 0:10:48.881 song essentially mentioned Munchausen's and I'll read them for you. 0:10:49.001 --> 0:10:52.161 Witnessing your mama popping prescription bills in the kitchen, bitching 0:10:52.241 --> 0:10:53.521 that someone's always going. 0:10:53.401 --> 0:10:57.481 Through a going, person missing, gone through public housing systems, 0:10:57.601 --> 0:10:59.121 victim Munchausen syndrome. 0:10:59.201 --> 0:11:01.361 My whole life, I was need to believe I was 0:11:01.401 --> 0:11:02.681 sick when I wasn't. 0:11:02.441 --> 0:11:02.921 To like who? 0:11:03.241 --> 0:11:03.801 Now? Who? 0:11:03.841 --> 0:11:06.001 What makes it sick to you? My stomach doesn't it? 0:11:06.081 --> 0:11:07.001 Wasn't it the reason? 0:11:07.081 --> 0:11:10.041 You mean? So? I think probably the best way to 0:11:10.041 --> 0:11:12.081 find out what it all means is to talk to 0:11:12.121 --> 0:11:13.041 someone that's an expert. 0:11:13.321 --> 0:11:18.761 Tim Watson Monroe, a criminal psychologist, former National Chairperson of 0:11:18.801 --> 0:11:23.721 the Forensic College of the Australian Psychological Society, former academic. 0:11:24.801 --> 0:11:27.801 I've worked in this space for about forty six years now. 0:11:28.601 --> 0:11:31.921 I've assessed in excess of twenty five thousand people during 0:11:31.921 --> 0:11:32.481 that time. 0:11:33.121 --> 0:11:35.561 Tim, we're not going to talk in specifics about the 0:11:35.601 --> 0:11:38.201 people involved in the case that we're talking about right 0:11:38.201 --> 0:11:42.681 now that's being investigated, but we are interested in Munchausen's 0:11:42.721 --> 0:11:46.281 by proxy, which I believe has a new name now. 0:11:47.041 --> 0:11:52.921 It's not described as a factitious disorder imposed on another. Basically, 0:11:52.961 --> 0:11:56.921 what it means is a person seeks attention through presenting 0:11:56.961 --> 0:12:00.961 their child at hospitals and other medical facilities, claiming that 0:12:00.961 --> 0:12:04.721 they're ill, and they keep going back. So there's a 0:12:04.801 --> 0:12:09.201 rain of diagnostic in dishea of Munchausen's by proxy. I 0:12:09.281 --> 0:12:12.001 prefer that term. I think it's sort of it's a 0:12:12.041 --> 0:12:15.761 bit more automatic paic in a way, but they've changed 0:12:15.801 --> 0:12:20.961 the name of it. There's various symptoms of it. The offender, 0:12:21.041 --> 0:12:23.201 if I could use that term, maybe the patient is 0:12:23.241 --> 0:12:27.361 more appropriate, may add blood to the child's urine or steel. 0:12:28.081 --> 0:12:30.801 They may with whole food so the child looks like 0:12:30.841 --> 0:12:35.601 they are unable to gain weight. They may heat up 0:12:35.641 --> 0:12:38.801 thermometers so it looks like the child has a fever. 0:12:39.521 --> 0:12:42.481 They can make up lab results, and they can give 0:12:42.521 --> 0:12:45.521 the child child drugs to get them to throw up 0:12:46.281 --> 0:12:50.161 or to have diarrhea. So it's a very serious condition 0:12:50.921 --> 0:12:53.361 and potentially life threatening for the child. 0:12:54.161 --> 0:12:56.881 I'm really interested to know They're like, are the other 0:12:56.961 --> 0:13:01.001 diagnosises that are involved in that, because to me, it's like, 0:13:01.081 --> 0:13:02.081 is that sociopathic? 0:13:02.201 --> 0:13:04.721 Is it psychopathic or is it really just a standalone 0:13:04.761 --> 0:13:06.241 dyke on its own. 0:13:07.161 --> 0:13:11.161 It's a good question. There's some research that now suggests 0:13:11.201 --> 0:13:14.601 that about fifty eight to sixty percent of people diagnosed 0:13:14.641 --> 0:13:20.601 with Munchausen's by proxy can also reliably be diagnosed as 0:13:20.641 --> 0:13:27.561 suffering a borderline personality disorder, and a borderline personality disorder 0:13:27.641 --> 0:13:33.601 is a construct referrable to a person's personality. They have 0:13:33.641 --> 0:13:37.361 all sorts of psychological problems that may derive from an 0:13:37.441 --> 0:13:41.601 early childhood, sexual abuse, trauma, and so on. So this 0:13:41.681 --> 0:13:47.601 research indicates that there's possibly some overlap between BBT BPD. 0:13:48.241 --> 0:13:51.801 I should say, as it's described in Munchausen's by proxy 0:13:51.921 --> 0:13:56.081 or as it's now known, factitious disorder imposed on another. 0:13:56.841 --> 0:14:00.721 I think the important component to it is that these 0:14:00.801 --> 0:14:06.521 people are not insane. They're in touch with reality, they 0:14:06.801 --> 0:14:10.121 are aware of what they're doing, and they have a 0:14:10.121 --> 0:14:13.641 clear consequence in mind. And that clear consequence is to 0:14:13.681 --> 0:14:18.961 get attention vicariously through presenting an ill child. And I 0:14:19.001 --> 0:14:23.201 can recall probably three or four decades ago now, it 0:14:23.241 --> 0:14:26.601 was when shortly after I morved to Melbourne from Sydney 0:14:26.801 --> 0:14:31.681 and I became involved with a forensic psychiatrist, the late 0:14:31.761 --> 0:14:36.201 doctor David Syme, a brilliant man, and this was a 0:14:36.241 --> 0:14:40.201 case where a mother was having her child taken from 0:14:40.241 --> 0:14:44.001 her by the government because she had been diagnosed with 0:14:44.161 --> 0:14:49.841 Munchausen's by proxy. The context of the case was this 0:14:50.001 --> 0:14:54.721 that she had repeatedly presented a child. I think it 0:14:54.761 --> 0:14:59.201 was the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne, a very keen, 0:14:59.361 --> 0:15:02.881 perhaps over Zella's social worker had seen her a couple 0:15:02.881 --> 0:15:07.761 of times and wrote on her notes Munchausen's by proxy 0:15:07.801 --> 0:15:11.161 with a question mark. And it's a classic example of 0:15:11.201 --> 0:15:15.641 how these things can then gather a life of their own. 0:15:15.801 --> 0:15:18.241 So what happened with this case. It went up the line, 0:15:18.561 --> 0:15:22.561 a psychologist saw it, and by the time a psychiatrist 0:15:22.601 --> 0:15:26.961 saw it, it was more or less established that she 0:15:27.041 --> 0:15:30.121 had Munchausen's by proxy. There was no evaluation of her, 0:15:30.561 --> 0:15:33.441 It was just the paper chain that led to that diagnosis. 0:15:33.881 --> 0:15:37.361 The reality of the story was this that this poor 0:15:37.401 --> 0:15:41.961 woman had lost a baby to sudden infant death syndrome 0:15:42.441 --> 0:15:46.481 cock death, and she was understandably anxious about the health 0:15:47.161 --> 0:15:51.081 and wellbeing of the next child, and so whenever there 0:15:51.161 --> 0:15:55.881 was symptoms of illness to reassure herself, she would present 0:15:55.921 --> 0:15:59.121 the child at a hospital, and eventually she became well 0:15:59.161 --> 0:16:04.241 known down there, and consequently the diagnosis we gave evidence 0:16:04.281 --> 0:16:08.561 in that case and the child was returned to her. 0:16:09.161 --> 0:16:11.281 The court accepted that she didn't have one Charles and 0:16:11.321 --> 0:16:16.281 spar proxy in passing. It's such a rare phenomenon anyway, 0:16:16.841 --> 0:16:19.401 you know you'd be lucky to encounter one one Charleis 0:16:19.401 --> 0:16:23.281 and spa proxy case in your career. My career is 0:16:23.321 --> 0:16:26.161 in a forty six years plus and that's the only 0:16:26.201 --> 0:16:29.201 one that I've ever been involved with. But these people 0:16:29.201 --> 0:16:34.481 are not insane. They're psychologically troubled. Clearly. If there's a 0:16:34.481 --> 0:16:40.561 concommonant diagnosis of personality disorder or borderline personality disorder, often 0:16:40.601 --> 0:16:45.561 these people are very troubled individuals, but not Matt. 0:16:47.321 --> 0:16:49.641 Sim also has a podcast of his own called Motive 0:16:49.721 --> 0:16:50.281 and Method. 0:16:50.561 --> 0:16:55.481 I do a podcast with doctor Zanth Mallett, an eminent, 0:16:55.561 --> 0:17:00.161 well known, renowned criminologist, assays your professor of criminology at 0:17:00.561 --> 0:17:04.481 the University of Newcastle, and our podcast is titled Motive 0:17:04.521 --> 0:17:08.160 and Method and so we look at various types of 0:17:08.241 --> 0:17:13.001 crimes and the motive and method behind them, doing a 0:17:13.041 --> 0:17:16.241 deep dive into some of the more notorious cases around 0:17:16.241 --> 0:17:19.641 Australian overseas. One of the ones we looked at, which 0:17:19.681 --> 0:17:21.840 is kind of on point here but not quite was 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:26.041 that of Lucy let Be. I'm sure your listeners are 0:17:26.041 --> 0:17:28.561 aware of Lucy let Be. She was a nurse in 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.001 a hospital in the UK and she ended up being 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.561 charged with the murder of quite a number of neonatal 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.680 babies who are in high intensity care. What drives these people? 0:17:40.721 --> 0:17:46.080 Who knows? I think with Munchausen's by proxy or Munchausen's, 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:48.840 it's in need to have attention, it's a need to 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.080 be part of the scene. And often these people are 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:57.920 well versed in matters medical. They understand her hotel routines 0:17:57.961 --> 0:18:01.360 and so on. They will present the child time and 0:18:01.441 --> 0:18:04.401 time again with symptoms it may have been created by 0:18:05.201 --> 0:18:08.200 administering medication and so on, and they want to be 0:18:08.321 --> 0:18:11.360 very involved in the process of seeing what's wrong with 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.880 a child. The interesting thing is, and it's one of 0:18:13.921 --> 0:18:18.481 the diagnostic features, is that generally these children, once they're 0:18:18.481 --> 0:18:23.001 discharged from hospital, they get well, then they come back 0:18:23.041 --> 0:18:26.281 again because they're sick, and eventually the red flags are 0:18:26.321 --> 0:18:29.880 waving loudly in the wind and people take a closer 0:18:29.921 --> 0:18:32.041 look at it. 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.600 Does someone just kind of get them more chousened by 0:18:35.681 --> 0:18:38.801 proxy diagnosis or is there often kind of a history 0:18:38.921 --> 0:18:42.561 of them having more chousend themselves? 0:18:43.241 --> 0:18:44.681 You know, like, is there sort. 0:18:44.481 --> 0:18:46.760 Of a history to it, or does it sort of 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.400 just like come about the second that they have a child, 0:18:49.521 --> 0:18:53.360 or do you find there's often a correlation between the two. 0:18:54.801 --> 0:18:57.160 Look, it's a very good question. My understanding is that 0:18:57.201 --> 0:19:00.440 it presents when the child arrives, a person who has 0:19:00.521 --> 0:19:06.400 Munchausen's is busy enough seeking medical attention for themselves. It 0:19:06.441 --> 0:19:10.401 may be triggered by their own childhood trauma, It may 0:19:10.441 --> 0:19:15.200 be triggered by higher levels of anxiety. But as the 0:19:15.241 --> 0:19:19.600 research indicates, a fair percentage of these people have a 0:19:19.801 --> 0:19:24.721 concomitant diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, which means that they 0:19:24.761 --> 0:19:29.640 are aware of what they're doing. It's almost it almost 0:19:29.681 --> 0:19:33.281 becomes compulsive for them. So it's not a form of malingering. 0:19:34.761 --> 0:19:36.521 It's an illness if I could put it that way, 0:19:36.521 --> 0:19:41.281 where people need to have attention vicariously through presenting a 0:19:41.321 --> 0:19:42.721 sick child at a hospital. 0:19:46.041 --> 0:19:50.241 Tim is it criminally defensible in general terms? 0:19:50.241 --> 0:19:54.801 The person has to be charged with a crime, and 0:19:55.001 --> 0:19:57.160 I guess if there was a crime, it would be 0:19:57.761 --> 0:20:01.761 over medicating a child, creating illness and a child and 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.240 so on. But if I understand your question correctly, is 0:20:06.281 --> 0:20:14.120 this a diagnosis which would possibly give the sufferer a 0:20:14.360 --> 0:20:17.321 defense to their behavior. My sort of sense of that 0:20:17.521 --> 0:20:20.200 is that it's not. It may be a diagnosis that 0:20:21.521 --> 0:20:26.760 gives the sufferer some mitigatory factors regarding their actions and 0:20:26.801 --> 0:20:29.921 so on, but it seems to me, as I've said, 0:20:29.921 --> 0:20:34.400 they're not insane, they're not criminally insane. The test of 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.321 all this is whether they have mensrael, whether they're aware 0:20:37.360 --> 0:20:41.360 of what they're doing, and whether they're aware of the 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.241 consequences of their behavior. It would only, i think, drift 0:20:45.241 --> 0:20:48.801 into the criminal jurisdiction if a crime against the child 0:20:49.001 --> 0:20:52.880 was committed. Arguably, in some of these cases, if not 0:20:52.961 --> 0:20:55.521 all of them, there are criminal actions that are being 0:20:55.561 --> 0:20:59.521 taken in terms of compromising the health and wellbeing of 0:20:59.561 --> 0:21:04.160 the child and sometimes leading to potential death and so on. 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.361 That's certainly criminal behavior in my Yeah, So. 0:21:09.360 --> 0:21:10.921 There's a lot of people out there who really want 0:21:10.921 --> 0:21:12.360 to know more about who we are as cable and 0:21:12.441 --> 0:21:15.120 kind of how we are as parents, and how y'are 0:21:15.120 --> 0:21:16.721 in our relationship and how we get along with that 0:21:16.801 --> 0:21:19.200 band and all that sort of good stuff. I have 0:21:19.321 --> 0:21:21.761 been sick for over a week now and I am 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:23.121 not here for it. 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:24.920 Why can't I get better? 0:21:27.360 --> 0:22:12.600 She's like so out. 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